Guild Wars 2

So this feature patch did a lot of good things, including getting rid of one eplephant in the room, water combat (for sPvP).

What about the other elephant?

The Downed State.

Now personally I dislike the downed state. I feel it makes winning out numbered fights close to impossible. I feel it promotes forgiveness way too much in a competitive setting. However, that aside it has HORRIBLE balance.

There are three main things dealing with the downed state.

1. Prevent a Stomp
2. Stomp a Player
3. Healing a teammate/yourself up

Right now some glasses are really good at this while others are not. For example the survival time of mesmers and theives when they go downed is much higher than any other class, especially engineer. Then you have some classes who are insanely good at rezzing or stomping other players.

Here is what I think should be done

Each class has an auto attack. This autoattack can do physical damage or condi damage or whatever, this one you can be creative about.

Then each class should have one single target knockdown

Then each class should have an AoE boon application. Not a knockback, not a insanely good/fast self rez, none of this unbalanced stuff.

Then you keep the self rez thing.

Right now the downed state is horrible balanced in both stomping and preventing stomps. It hasn’t been touched since release and is one of the main things that frustrates me with PvP. You wanted to make each class be able to do everything, yet when we go into the downed state our roles drastically change, our balance drastically changes, and our ability to do everything is no longer there.

Even 18 months into the game I still think downed-state is the worst thing in Guild Wars 2. I’ve gotten used to it, I can deal with it, but I just hate the game-play it encourages and the game-dynamic it rewards.

It’s the single worst thing about this game.

If you need a more detailed explanation feel free to browse my extensive posting history on this matter.

I agree. If you can accept that the game was meant for casual players and not meant to be competitive then one can learn to live with it.

This discussion has flared up several times in the past.

Downed State is completely unbalanced. Some professions have flat out superior skills when downed compared to others. Attributed to flavor.

Why should an Engineer get a single-target, projectile based, interupt, but a Guardian gets a 5man aoe interupt? We all know which of the two is better.

Even the damage disparity is incredibly odd. Where some professions barely tickle you and can hardly squeeze out 800dmg per crit, and others are happily slapping you around for 1.5k crits. I’ve even taken as much as 2.1k crits from someone who was downed, and i know for a fact that not every profession is capable of that. Not anywhere close.

Its just 3 skills essentially, and yet they are completely out of balance. Chances of surviving being downed as an Engineer are abysmal. And i noticeably recover more often when playing my Ele or Thief. I mostly play WvW, and the key is to stay alive while downed as long as possible, to improve chances of ralying. And, moving closer to your allies where possible.
Clearly favoring certain professions.

Downed State is interesting, but it doesn’t work well because in most cases it’s meaningless – you just get stomped or, more frequently, killed by damage – while in a rare few cases it turns the fight around.

It’s… meh.

What I think would help is make combat slower as a whole, and make rallying much more difficult (each attack tags a target for ~1s, only tagged targets rally). Then, also slow Downed State death down.

Combat lasts longer and downed is difficult to rally from but each ability still contributes to the team (i.e.: it’s no longer just about how well you avoid a stomp, at all).

Stomping would also need to be slower.

They should remove downed state and ressing altogether in all forms of PvP, including WvW.

It demotes skillful play when you’re outnumbered since no matter what you do, they’ll res faster.

Pleurodesed.7625:

It demotes skillful play when you’re outnumbered since no matter what you do, they’ll res faster.

I thought that was the point?

And how is that positive in any way?

Pleurodesed.7625:

And how is that positive in any way?

On a WvW level and PvE level it encourages sticking together due to the multi-layer protection other players offer via rallying and rezzing. As far as MMO-design goes, it’s a pretty neat way of soft-coercing players to stick close.

Yes, I know, “Zerging is the devil” and stuff. Only, it isn’t. The combat system of any current MMO – including GW2 – cannot handle it well but ultimately a MMO promises large-scale gaming, and since their inception that’s the dream behind it. Look at raiding, especially back when it was 40 people in WoW or the groups in DAoC.
Just the same, GW2 wants players to be in large groups.

I think you’re really barking up the wrong tree if you see the issue in the mechanics which want you to run around in large groups. Large groups are the design goal, most likely. There’s games for smallscale PvP combat, specialized games. Much like MMOs don’t specialize into that. :P

Rather, the combat system and overall health/damage design needs to be adapted to the – otherwise good – large-scale design.

So what you’re saying with those words is that a zerg should remain to be untouchable by small groups, which is what ressing causes. Killing a zerg player is extremely difficult and gives no reward, since there’s no effect to it.
But having your small group steamrolled won’t take an effort and it’s guaranteed it’ll have to rally home; maximizing the reward.

So I believe your premise makes the risk-reward ratio unfair to the extreme.

… I hope you guys are joking

Not a huge fan of the down state either.

I mean I like the idea in principle, but I dont think people should be able to attack in down state (so no 1-3 skill) and I dont think rallying should be a thing either.

If you can teammates to defend and revive you, great, nothing wrong with some team play… But when you have been downed you should not be fighting back or rallying just because you’ve tagged everyone on the battlefield and some up-leveled somewhere has been killed.

Pleurodesed.7625:

So what you’re saying with those words is that a zerg should remain to be untouchable by small groups, which is what ressing causes. Killing a zerg player is extremely difficult and gives no reward, since there’s no effect to it.
But having your small group steamrolled won’t take an effort and it’s guaranteed it’ll have to rally home; maximizing the reward.

So I believe your premise makes the risk-reward ratio unfair to the extreme.

This makes immediate sense, because superior numbers give flexibility and both offensive and defensive security in combat.

Yes, most games actively try left and right and centre to not allow this pretty natural mechanic to show up. Usually by hard-capping their combat at very small sizes.
If you have actually large combat though, the bigger fish will usually eat the smaller one. And that’s entirely natural, and expected. The rezzing/rallying adds the defensive part. To be fair, it wouldn’t be needed if we had collision detection I think.

No.

If you want ballanced down state, you got to first balance the profession outside downstate so each profession is equally down equally much. A warrior has almost double the health and armor than say a elementalist, and stays up a lot better in a zerg fight. Their worse downstate active skills is then ballanced with their improved passive health in and out of downstate (down state health is affected by vitality and armor).

They wanted to make a game where each class is able to do everything, but they also wanted the conflicting goal of sterotypical warriors with high health and mages with frail defenses. The result is a never ending road of balance changes in order to make it all feel ballanced while in truth such state won’t realistically happen.

Or some kind of shield wall stance.

We can body block projectiles, but that makes for little use when the enemy can just rampage right past.

Pulling off something like the roman shield formations would be a interesting change of pace.

I agree when you state a bigger army should defeat the smaller one.
And in fact I’m not really in favor of hard-capping the combat to very small sizes since despite I despise zergs and avoid being in one at all costs, some other people actually seem to enjoy W+1+1+1+1+1.

The key point I’m trying to make is the downed state and reviving players removes the element of bad play. No matter how you look at it, a blob is just going to dps down a gate under siege fire with no punishment since they’re going to quickly revive anyone who dies for staying beneath arrow cart fire.

Pyrrhic victories should occur. My ideal scenarios should be:
-Zerg uses time making an encampment near keep using ballistas, arrow carts and catapults. Zerg size is a resource which pulls from capturing / defending other locations. Enemy zerg arrives facerolling through the encampment lol111111 and dies to positioning and siege. They die. Keep yields and is lost.
-Blob dps gate without any positioning nor catapults nor anything. Not even rams.
Bad players die sniped by AC, ballistas. Keep yields because blob is immense. Blob is now a small zerg because of the amount of losses and dies to the enemy zerg which has just arrived to reinforce. Keep is saved.

The current scenario:
Lol I’m blob 1111111111111111111. Blob members die? NP resurrect in an instant. 0 losses. Enemy zerg arrives? lol1111111111. AC? LOLO111111. Keep taken. Skill required: 0. Now choochoo through the map for moar phat lewtz.

Pleurodesed.7625:

So what you’re saying with those words is that a zerg should remain to be untouchable by small groups, which is what ressing causes. Killing a zerg player is extremely difficult and gives no reward, since there’s no effect to it.
But having your small group steamrolled won’t take an effort and it’s guaranteed it’ll have to rally home; maximizing the reward.

So I believe your premise makes the risk-reward ratio unfair to the extreme.

So 50 players should be threatened by 10. And shouldn’t be able to steamroll those 10 back to base whenever they choose?

WvW is about NUMBERS. As in any game this game’s pvp ultimately comes down to numbers. Player skill has a factor – and it contributes in this game MORE than in other MMOs with the active dodge system and movement system BUT the genre of this game ( a MMO) requires that player skill will never be as important as numbers.

If you want games in which your skill matters more than the enemy’s numbers MMOs aren’t for you.
Try MOBAS or FPS games. Even there numbers matter a lot but a good player can easily win a 3 v 1 in an FPS.

Also – regarding your post above – that’s what happens when you make maps so small that dying doesn’t really matter.

Respawn time could be interesting – you die in WVW ? 3 minutes till respawn. Then wiping a zerg might matter.

I love the downed state O.o

Seriously, though, there’s strategy behind it and without it the game would lose some major pieces of that strategy and function.

Perhaps rework it, if anything. Don’t just scrap it all together.

Well one thing that would be nice for PvP, is being able to turn off downstate in custom arenas. Then we could at least see what the game is like without downstate.

I’m only not a fan of how completely different the downed states are between classes, in addition to how completely different the ability to stomp is between classes. As a Necro, I often just sit there when I’m in downed state, because doing anything is very situationally worth it. Even if I get to my #3, it’s trash unless I’m in Downed State vs. Downed State combat.

I see no reason why Ele/Thief/Mesmer should be able to consistently avoid a stomp under any circumstances. In a Thief’s case, it’s often 2 stomps, unless someone can shadow-step with the Thief. Like, another Thief (also arguably the best stomper with Stealth, Pistol #5, and Shadow Step available).

Harper, I have an entirely different approach to the problem than the “you don’t like dull wvw? It is meant to be this way. There’s no skill, just numbers; and if you don’t like it you can go somewhere else.”
That same logic can be applied to everything else.

3 minute respawn timer is more of an issue than a problem solver. Having to wait for 3 minutes before being able to do anything? That sounds like a total game killer to me.
Besides, resurrecting a player entirely circunvents this so the “Zero strategy blob always wins” is still there. Besides, it already takes minutes to reach the fight from spawn.

I described two scenarios which show the game would improve drastically. Now I’m talking about the fun to watch and fun to play challenge without hugging the “don’t like it too bad” premise. I hope you agree the ideal scenarios are better than the current state of mindlessly blobbing.

But since this thread is more about downed-state than KILLED state; I believe I’m going to make a new thread later not to derail this one.
Although it’s somewhat very related: downed state still reinforces the permissiveness of really bad play since you’ll get a chance to get up more often than being ultimately killed.

I dont understand this arguement that “larger groups should steamrole smaller groups”

Thats true, they should. But they should be doing it because they have more people, thus more damage output, more combined health and generally more of everything. They shouldnt need a game mechanic in place to give them an advantage and to ensure they always win, because they should be winning already.

You cant just say WvW is a game of number thus they bigger group should be given bonus mechanics to help them win.. No.. WvW is a game of number BECAUSE of those mechanics. If they were removed then blobbing anf winning through sheer numbers would be harder.

Carighan.6758:

Pleurodesed.7625:

So what you’re saying with those words is that a zerg should remain to be untouchable by small groups, which is what ressing causes. Killing a zerg player is extremely difficult and gives no reward, since there’s no effect to it.
But having your small group steamrolled won’t take an effort and it’s guaranteed it’ll have to rally home; maximizing the reward.

So I believe your premise makes the risk-reward ratio unfair to the extreme.

This makes immediate sense, because superior numbers give flexibility and both offensive and defensive security in combat.

Yes, most games actively try left and right and centre to not allow this pretty natural mechanic to show up. Usually by hard-capping their combat at very small sizes.
If you have actually large combat though, the bigger fish will usually eat the smaller one. And that’s entirely natural, and expected. The rezzing/rallying adds the defensive part. To be fair, it wouldn’t be needed if we had collision detection I think.

There’s also the bit where yes, a huge group really ought to be untouchable – but it doesn’t have nearly the same mobility as several small groups. You can turtle up and hold one objective with a huge zerg – or try to move around the map with it – but five roaming parties will very easily backcap everything else in the meantime.

Individual rewards are much higher for the zerg, and I don’t like that – but it’s a different matter entirely.

They just need stomping to be faster than two people ressing that individual. They are downed, their chances of survival should be slim.

I hate downed state too. The only thing they could do to make it better is give everyone access to the same skills. An auto attack, an interrupt, an aoe whatever, and a heal.

attrail.8613:

They just need stomping to be faster than two people ressing that individual. They are downed, their chances of survival should be slim.

This!!!

Down state very much encourages skilled team play.

There are many times that I’ve been downed and, due to my teammates overlooking my broken, bleeding body in favor of tunnel visioning some bunker, that I’ve been killed before I was able to contribute to the group. In the same breath if that bunker does go down I will almost assuredly die in the next few seconds because I was neglected, giving the bunker a second wind. My teammates were bad and because of that they missed out on my damage and boons and the bunker was able to get back up and keep fighting.

On the other hand there have been many times where I get downed during a team fight and, rather than focusing the enemy, my teammates turn to me and rez me. I get back up, unload my damage rotation, and completely turn the tide of the fight because my teammates were aware enough to make sure I was on my feet.

But on the third hand there have been times where both myself and an enemy are downed, and my teammates try to rez me rather than stomping the enemy, which resulted in the enemy getting rezzed before me and proceeding to knock back my saviors and stomping me. Or an enemy stomps me before my allies can rez me resulting in the downed enemy getting back up.

It’s a much more complicated system than people give it credit for, and observing the situation and making the right call can make or break a team fight.

Once more, without down state a thief jumping me from nowhere would just kill me. There’s no counter play to that. The downed state counterbalances extreme burst so there’s at least a CHANCE to get back up, rather than being immediately shut down by someone you didn’t even know was there until you were on the ground.

I personally like the down state, but I think it could be improved. For one, I feel rallies should be more limited (more relevant in wvw). And I think a lot of downed skills should be tweaked or even replaced.

Ehecatl.9172:

Once more, without down state a thief jumping me from nowhere would just kill me. There’s no counter play to that. The downed state counterbalances extreme burst so there’s at least a CHANCE to get back up, rather than being immediately shut down by someone you didn’t even know was there until you were on the ground.

So down state is an enabler for over-the-top burst?

Erebos.6741:

Ehecatl.9172:

Once more, without down state a thief jumping me from nowhere would just kill me. There’s no counter play to that. The downed state counterbalances extreme burst so there’s at least a CHANCE to get back up, rather than being immediately shut down by someone you didn’t even know was there until you were on the ground.

So down state is an enabler for over-the-top burst?

Down state is the counter to over the top burst. If you massively reduced the damage someone can do in a short time frame so that bursting someone to nothing isn’t an option then sure, remove down state. But I have a feeling the people who actually enjoy that playstyle won’t be too happy about it.

Then of course you’d have to look at bunkers who would then be immortal. So you gotta nerf that to keep it in line with reduced damage. I’m sure they won’t be super happy about being nerfed either.

Basically you’d have to completely overhaul the entire game if you removed the down state.

Ehecatl.9172:

Erebos.6741:

So down state is an enabler for over-the-top burst?

Down state is the counter to over the top burst. If you massively reduced the damage someone can do in a short time frame so that bursting someone to nothing isn’t an option then sure, remove down state. But I have a feeling the people who actually enjoy that playstyle won’t be too happy about it.

Then of course you’d have to look at bunkers who would then be immortal. So you gotta nerf that to keep it in line with reduced damage. I’m sure they won’t be super happy about being nerfed either.

Basically you’d have to completely overhaul the entire game if you removed the down state.

So you agree down state obligates extreme burst, which subsequently demands extreme defense.

Would you agree burst beyond sensible human reaction time is irrational for a game that hopes to distinguish players based on skill?

Erebos.6741:

So you agree down state obligates extreme burst, which subsequently demands extreme defense.

Would you agree burst beyond sensible human reaction time is irrational for a game that hopes to distinguish players based on skill?

I see where you’re trying to go with this, but removing down state is the exact opposite of how you should go about making the change you want to see made. You can’t remove downed state, which gives players a chance to get back up from an obscene burst, first. So long as that burst exists we need the downed state.

Now whether or not we should remove the extreme burst as an option is an entirely different debate. Right now, in this discussion, removing downed state would be disastrous to the health of the game.

Don’t remove downed state, but make the #2 on every class a simple interrupt. There’s one large step towards a better tomorrow.

Ehecatl.9172:

So long as that burst exists we need the downed state.

Now whether or not we should remove the extreme burst as an option is an entirely different debate.

It’s absolutely relevant as you clearly noted a relationship between burst and down state.

It seems you’re saying we “need” down state because burst exceeds normal human reaction time, so I’m asking you: do you think that’s a rational approach to game design which also aims to distinguish players based on their knowledge and adroitness (skill)?

attrail.8613:

They just need stomping to be faster than two people ressing that individual. They are downed, their chances of survival should be slim.

I think it’d be better if max-rezzers was capped at 1. Left4Dead was fine with that, too.

revival in WVW seems to make defunct a vital aspect of real wars, supply lines.

And i am not talking about yaks, but about troops making a push beyond the front line. This opens them up to encirclement and destruction.

But not so with revival, as unless the whole blob is wiped in one fight it will be right back at full strength in a matter of seconds.

Erebos.6741:

Ehecatl.9172:

So long as that burst exists we need the downed state.

Now whether or not we should remove the extreme burst as an option is an entirely different debate.

It’s absolutely relevant as you clearly noted a relationship between burst and down state.

It seems you’re saying we “need” down state because burst exceeds normal human reaction time, so I’m asking you: do you think that’s a rational approach to game design which also aims to distinguish players based on their knowledge and adroitness (skill)?

I wonder if what we are seeing is a conflict between accounting for player skill, and making SPVP a spectator sport. This because one argument for discouraging bunkering was that it made for a static, and therefore boring, game to spectate.

Thing is that if you have multiple skilled people fighting over a point, you may well get a extended dance of trusts and parries. And so the devs crank up the DPS until every fight became a case of defeat from 1-2 hits to maintain the pace of the game.

but that would allow for one side to steamroll the other if they focus on range or stealth. And so you get down state, allowing for a “exiting” last second recovery and turnaround of momentum.

I think soon after launch someone either here on the forum or on Reddit brought up a post from the blizzard D3 team. Something about how wild swing of the health globe resulted in people virtually ignoring it in their builds. Instead either going for DPS to kill the enemy first, or heals that would refill the globe from any state.

We are seeing something very similar in GW2. I watched a video of a engineer soloing Lupi, and quickly noticed how the health globe was constantly swinging between quarter states.

Never was there a sense of attrition where he was staying in there while the globe was ticking down, trying to do as much as he could before backing off to recover.

Instead the globe was constantly swinging between 25% and full, almost as if Lupi was doing damage in percentages.

what they should do is to disable hard ressing in combat and have a max of 2 people rezzing people in downed state. Zerker staff ele zerg killer says hi.

Ehecatl.9172:

Down state very much encourages skilled team play.

There are many times that I’ve been downed and, due to my teammates overlooking my broken, bleeding body in favor of tunnel visioning some bunker, that I’ve been killed before I was able to contribute to the group. In the same breath if that bunker does go down I will almost assuredly die in the next few seconds because I was neglected, giving the bunker a second wind. My teammates were bad and because of that they missed out on my damage and boons and the bunker was able to get back up and keep fighting.

On the other hand there have been many times where I get downed during a team fight and, rather than focusing the enemy, my teammates turn to me and rez me. I get back up, unload my damage rotation, and completely turn the tide of the fight because my teammates were aware enough to make sure I was on my feet.

But on the third hand there have been times where both myself and an enemy are downed, and my teammates try to rez me rather than stomping the enemy, which resulted in the enemy getting rezzed before me and proceeding to knock back my saviors and stomping me. Or an enemy stomps me before my allies can rez me resulting in the downed enemy getting back up.

It’s a much more complicated system than people give it credit for, and observing the situation and making the right call can make or break a team fight.

Once more, without down state a thief jumping me from nowhere would just kill me. There’s no counter play to that. The downed state counterbalances extreme burst so there’s at least a CHANCE to get back up, rather than being immediately shut down by someone you didn’t even know was there until you were on the ground.

Everything you just described, with a special emphasis on the negative, is because of a ridiculous game mechanic, and all of those examples were reactions to that game mechanic. Not the objective of the game, but one lone mechanic. But is it just the downed state that is the problem? No. Because the downed state allows for the other issue.

I agree, and have said it before, the burst/bunker extremes need to be toned down. It is not a problem of any one particular class, but rather the spectrum of power as a whole, needs re-tuning.

<DMG——————————————Balanced———————————————-DEF>

When it should be more like

<DMG———————————Balanced———————————-DEF>

I understand why the downstate exists, to allow for BIG NUMBERS ATTACK without completely removing the player from the battlefield in the blink of an eye. But what about bunkers? What’s the reasoning behind making them as hard to kill as they are?

The truth of the matter is that the downed state was a fun experiment, but it needs to go. It’s not just a faulty game mechanic, it is a faulty game mechanic that is the only counterplay to extreme burst. Remove one, re-tune the other, then the healing can begin.

Erebos.6741:

Ehecatl.9172:

So long as that burst exists we need the downed state.

Now whether or not we should remove the extreme burst as an option is an entirely different debate.

It’s absolutely relevant as you clearly noted a relationship between burst and down state.

It seems you’re saying we “need” down state because burst exceeds normal human reaction time, so I’m asking you: do you think that’s a rational approach to game design which also aims to distinguish players based on their knowledge and adroitness (skill)?

This thread is not about burst damage, it’s about whether or not the game needs the downed state. Unless the developers completely redesign every profession in the game or alter the core mechanics that govern damage and survivability, we do in fact need downed state. Simply removing it will not solve anything.

Ehecatl.9172:

Erebos.6741:

Ehecatl.9172:

So long as that burst exists we need the downed state.

Now whether or not we should remove the extreme burst as an option is an entirely different debate.

It’s absolutely relevant as you clearly noted a relationship between burst and down state.

It seems you’re saying we “need” down state because burst exceeds normal human reaction time, so I’m asking you: do you think that’s a rational approach to game design which also aims to distinguish players based on their knowledge and adroitness (skill)?

This thread is not about burst damage, it’s about whether or not the game needs the downed state. Unless the developers completely redesign every profession in the game or alter the core mechanics that govern damage and survivability, we do in fact need downed state. Simply removing it will not solve anything.

You are absolutely right. You cannot remove the downed state and leave the extremes as they are. But this game will never succeed in the competitive scene in its current state, and something has got to give.

This a PvP problem, in PvE/WvW it’s fine. The skills should be the same for everyone in PvP or get rid.

I like the downed state but dislike the fact that you have no chance of killing a person in a PvP situation from the downed state because he also has his downed state. No ideas how to make this better though.

Though I do agree with the above post, downed state has no place in PvP. WvW is more of a team game so it’s not as bad.

Hammerheart.1426:

You are absolutely right. You cannot remove the downed state and leave the extremes as they are. But this game will never succeed in the competitive scene in its current state, and something has got to give.

sPvP, ideally. Would remove a whole host of balance issues.

Dee Jay.2460:

Even 18 months into the game I still think downed-state is the worst thing in Guild Wars 2. I’ve gotten used to it, I can deal with it, but I just hate the game-play it encourages and the game-dynamic it rewards.

It’s the single worst thing about this game.

If you need a more detailed explanation feel free to browse my extensive posting history on this matter.

I couldn’t agree more. DS introduces a lot of imbalances, destroys the flow of combat, and just plain looks silly.