[Ele, Engie] Sigils, and a possible fix.

[Ele, Engie] Sigils, and a possible fix.

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Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

So as we all know when the feature pack hits there is going to be major changes to the way sigil’s work and two handers are getting an extra sigil slot.
Sadly for Ele and Engie because of there class mechanics they were denied a second weapon set as a means of “balance” from the beginning of the game. Engineer’s could not even use sigil’s with kits in the beginning :/. Thankfully this was fixed and brought the engineer up to around equal to the other classes at the time “somewhat”.
Now with these new changes on the horizon the customizability of sigil’s for the other six classes is jumping ahead of these two classes by leaps and bounds. Most notably the fact that with the changes to stacking sigil’s the other six classes can simply occupy one of there four sigil slots with an on kill sigil and then use the other three slots for what ever they want for example:

My Ham/bow warrior: Hammer, sigil of fire and sigil of force
Bow, sigil of bloodlust and sigil of energy

This allows me to build up bloodlust stacks on my bow while also gaining a dodge back every time i swap to it before i use the burst skill i then swap back to my hammer wich gets 5% dmg from the force sigil and can crit for aoe fire.

Ele’s and Engie’s will not be getting this new versatility as they can only equip one weapon set thus getting only two slots two customize. (no change from the current format.) for example;

My Staff Ele; Staff, sigil of energy and sigil of bloodlust.

with the two slots available i have chosen to take energy to gain a doge every attunement swap in order to help my evasive arcana and a bloodlust sigil to increase dps. If i wanted to gain the benefits of a permanent sigil or on crit sigil like the warrior above i would have to sacrifice ether my energy sigil which i personal believe is integral to my build and roll in battle or my bloodlust stacks.
Engine’s problem lies in the fact that to gain weapon swapping they have to sue a utility slot to do so. First i would like to mention that allot of people assume that this means the engineer is sacrificing a utility to gain something other classes have already. This is a misconception because the engineer class mechanic is the tool belt which in fact is our actual utility bar and we gain a matching utility on our tool belt bar to which kit or actual utility we take so basically if you take a kit you get that kits utility skill on your tool belt and if you take an actual utility you basically gain a second utility on the tool belt. basically a two for one. So engineers do not actually have to sacrifice a utility at all. The problem for engineer’s and the new sigil system lies in something far more simple yet complicated at the same time (typical engineer convoluted nonsense as usual :/ ). The fact that if i wanted to run a gadget or turret build (all though a would not currently because they are teribad right now XD.) or elixer build i will lose access to 25% of all sigils because i would have no way to use weapon swap sigils at all. Basically i would be forced to water down my turret or gadget or elixer build by taking a kit instead of a third turret or gadget(with no trait investment.) just to use a weapon swap sigil. this combined with the fact that all other utility types are incredibly sub par with out being used in conjunction with at least one kit, having only one weapon set to use offensively and the fact that even kits themselves are not created equal to actual weapons with out heavy trait investment which none of these three build types can do with out having to give up core traits to branch into kit traits thus severely watering down build effectiveness.

Cont, below.

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

[Ele, Engie] Sigils, and a possible fix.

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Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

I have had a proposed idea in answer to these problem’s which i would like to here your thoughts on below.

For Ele’s;

Give ele’s one sigil slot per attunement not linked to the players weapon choice. For example;

My Staff Ele: Fire atn; sigil of fire.
Air atn; sigil of energy
Water atn; sigil of water
Earth atn; sigil of bloodlust.

With this the ele would have access to a different sigil in each attunement so it could build bloodlust by attuning earth when killing and stomping foes. Healing allies when attuning to water with critical hits. Gaining a doge by attuning to air and finally Aoe fire off crits with meteor shower and such while in fire attunement.

For Engineer’s;

Give engineer’s a third sigil slot exclusive for a weapon swap sigil regardless of weapon set equipped. that only procs its effects if the engineer kit swaps, uses a turret or gadget or elixer. This sigil slot follows a number of rules listed below.

A. The sigil inserted in this slot does not change unless replaced with a new sigil (at which point the old sigil is destroyed as usual unless an upgrade extractor is used first.) even if the engineer changes there weapons. (for example a different pair of pistols or a rifle.)

B. only weapon swap sigil’s may be inserted in the slot.

C. The sigil only procs its effect when a utility is used. i.e. Kit swapping, drinking an elixer, using a gadget or turret. At which point it goes on its own internal cooldown.

D. all other normal sigil rules apply.

With this the engineer has access to a weapon swap sigil even if they choose not to run kits and can then have on kill/crit sigils or permanent bonus sigils or even another weapon swap sigil in there actual weapon slots.

These idea’s allow the ele and engineer to use sigils with there class mechanics and brings them to a level playing field weapon swap wise with the other six classes and use sigils in a different and interesting way bringing new interest and customizable options to GW2.

Bellow i would love to here your thoughts on this and your own idea’s that may help bring some balance to ele’s and engineer’s in this area and hopefully with soem positive discussion and enigmatic idea’s we may even be able to grab Anet’s attention to this and persuade them to do something to help.

Below is a link to the thread regarding general discussion about this topic.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Sigils-Ele-and-Engineer-punished

Please keep this thread used purely for idea’s to solve the problem and discussion and opinions on said idea’s. Please post all general thoughts and complaints in the thread above, thank you.

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

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Posted by: Uhtameit.2413

Uhtameit.2413

I like it but there’s little chance that Anet will see it.

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Posted by: Drake Phoenix.6158

Drake Phoenix.6158

I think you may be missing something…

On-Kill sigils (those sigils which trigger when you kill something) have received an update as well. The functionality of each sigil has changed so that killing a player is worth five stacks of a sigil in any game mode, while killing a monster only grants one stack. This type of sigil will have more strict rules applied on them, so that a player will no longer be able to gain 25 stacks and then un-equip the sigil.

That suggests to me that haivng Bloodlust on weapon A, building stacks to 25, and then swapping weapons will cause you to lose your bloodlust stacks.

This is a change from the current functionality where you can keep your stacks even if you swap weapons or unequip the weapon with the bloodlust sigil. It is unclear if you would keep the stacks if you also have a bloodlust sigil on the other weapon set (though I expect you will get to keep them in that case), but you won’t be able to exploit the weapon stacks the way it used to be possible.

So basically, the way on-kill stacking effect sigils used to work was broken, and allowed classes other than engi/ele to have a slight advantage when it came to the way they were able to use sigils, but that gap will now be closed.

Applying this back to your hambow vs your ele, with the new system, the hambow will lose the bloodlust stacks on weapon swap, or will have to take bloodlust on both weapon sets. Which means that at best they will only have the advantage of one extra sigil, whereas the engi and ele both have the versatility advantages of kits/attunements.

I’m not saying that everything is going to be perfectly balanced. But what I am saying is that because on-kill stacking sigils will no longer work the same, there will be less of a discrepancy than what you seem to be expecting.

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

I like it but there’s little chance that Anet will see it.

Either that or will ignore it. I have a thread i made about the same issue over 2 weeks old and no red comment or anything.

OP, check out my thread https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Sigils-Ele-and-Engineer-punished/page/2#post3867687

Had a few ideas posted. See what you think.

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Posted by: Uhtameit.2413

Uhtameit.2413

I like it but there’s little chance that Anet will see it.

Either that or will ignore it. I have a thread i made about the same issue over 2 weeks old and no red comment or anything.

OP, check out my thread https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Sigils-Ele-and-Engineer-punished/page/2#post3867687

Had a few ideas posted. See what you think.

The OP mentionned your thread in his second post ^^

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Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

I think you may be missing something…

On-Kill sigils (those sigils which trigger when you kill something) have received an update as well. The functionality of each sigil has changed so that killing a player is worth five stacks of a sigil in any game mode, while killing a monster only grants one stack. This type of sigil will have more strict rules applied on them, so that a player will no longer be able to gain 25 stacks and then un-equip the sigil.

That suggests to me that haivng Bloodlust on weapon A, building stacks to 25, and then swapping weapons will cause you to lose your bloodlust stacks.

It actually means that you cant just walk around with a spare weapon with a stacking sigil in your bags after the patch. Can you imagine how angry player’s who main engineer or ele would be if what your suggesting is true. Think about it, ele’s who lose there stacks every time they swap attunement even though they only have one weapon. Engineer’s that lose there stacks every time they go in and out of kit. The forums would irrupt in anger. The chances of you losing the stacks every time you “weapon swap” are 0%.

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

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Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

I like it but there’s little chance that Anet will see it.

Either that or will ignore it. I have a thread i made about the same issue over 2 weeks old and no red comment or anything.

OP, check out my thread https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Sigils-Ele-and-Engineer-punished/page/2#post3867687

Had a few ideas posted. See what you think.

The OP mentionned your thread in his second post ^^

yup, its a great thread to discuss the problem in but i thought we needed a more theory crafty thread so here we are, and i made sure to link to your thread to direct general discussion there.

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

[Ele, Engie] Sigils, and a possible fix.

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Posted by: hooma.9642

hooma.9642

1. the amount or possible sigill combinations for 4 slots compared to 2 is the same like before. all classes except engi and ele had more sigill available. so nothing will change

2. the only real disadvantage with the update is the removing of the shared cooldown for on-swap sigills. where it gives more different effects on more sigill slots for classes with more than 1 weapon set, but makes it not stronger except for warrior traited with fast hands.

having double the amount of weaponskills isnt enough of an advantage? i play all classes and think its a fair trade off.

as suggestion against the whole qq-threads that jumps out of nirvana for every update: stop comparing tiny bits of a complex system.

(edited by hooma.9642)

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Posted by: Simon.3794

Simon.3794

Right now a class’ maximum sigil counts is 4
ele and engi is 2
a class with two handed weapons is 2
and ele with two handed weapon is 1

post patch
a class with twohanded weapons is 4
ele and engi with two handed weapon is 2

one handed weapon and maximum sigils are still the same

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Posted by: Aberrant.6749

Aberrant.6749

1. the amount or possible sigill combinations for 4 slots compared to 2 is the same like before. all classes except engi and ele had more sigill available. so nothing will change

2. the only real disadvantage with the update is the removing of the shared cooldown for on-swap sigills. where it gives more different effects on more sigill slots for classes with more than 1 weapon set, but makes it not stronger except for warrior traited with fast hands.

having double the amount of weaponskills isnt enough of an advantage? i play all classes and think its a fair trade off.

as suggestion against the whole qq-threads that jumps out of nirvana for every update: stop comparing tiny bits of a complex system.

Wat @ bolds.

Other classes have at most 4, 2 with two 2h weapons. Eng/ele have half that, but they procced more frequently on the same ones. Post other classes will have 4 no matter if they have 1 or 2h weapons and eng/ele still have one or two. There is a discrepancy there.

Having more skills =/= stronger. Compare some of the ele/eng weapon/kit abilities and they are quite a bit weaker. Eng/Ele also have to be faster to make up for the time it takes to use a skill, swap attunements/kits, use another. Eng’s also give up utility slots for kit slots, ele’s utilities tend to have longer cd’s.

That’s how it was balanced. It’s not like eng/ele just rotflstomped everything under the sun because they had more skills.

2H weapons should be nerfed to balance out the additional utility/damage added by the sigils. Look what happened to eng when their kits were given the ability to proc. Fair is Fair.

Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa

(edited by Aberrant.6749)

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Posted by: hooma.9642

hooma.9642

1. the amount or possible sigill combinations for 4 slots compared to 2 is the same like before. all classes except engi and ele had more sigill available. so nothing will change

2. the only real disadvantage with the update is the removing of the shared cooldown for on-swap sigills. where it gives more different effects on more sigill slots for classes with more than 1 weapon set, but makes it not stronger except for warrior traited with fast hands.

having double the amount of weaponskills isnt enough of an advantage? i play all classes and think its a fair trade off.

as suggestion against the whole qq-threads that jumps out of nirvana for every update: stop comparing tiny bits of a complex system.

Wat @ bolds.

Other classes have at most 4, 2 with two 2h weapons. Eng/ele have half that, but they procced more frequently on the same ones. Post other classes will have 4 no matter if they have 1 or 2h weapons and eng/ele still have one or two. There is a discrepancy there.

Having more skills =/= stronger. Compare some of the ele/eng weapon/kit abilities and they are quite a bit weaker. Eng/Ele also have to be faster to make up for the time it takes to use a skill, swap attunements/kits, use another. Eng’s also give up utility slots for kit slots, ele’s utilities tend to have longer cd’s.

That’s how it was balanced. It’s not like eng/ele just rotflstomped everything under the sun because they had more skills.

2H weapons should be nerfed to balance out the additional utility/damage added by the sigils. Look what happened to eng when their kits were given the ability to proc. Fair is Fair.

lol sure let just read every third word.

i wonder how u will have only 1 sigill after the patch.

there is no difference like before. seems u dont understand it. if u think it matters how many sigill u can slot or not and not the amount of different skills for certain situations, well u play maybe the wrong class.

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Posted by: P Fun Daddy.1208

P Fun Daddy.1208

At this point I have to say it would be fair to ignore hooma. He is either trolling or has trouble with English to the point that he actually doesn’t understand that there will be changes to sigils.
I’m personally inclined to go with the second because:

“Lol sure, let’s just read every third word.

I wonder how you will have only one sigil after the patch.

There is no difference from before. It seems you don’t understand. If you think that the number of sigils you can slot is important and the number of skills you have isn’t, then you might be playing the wrong class"

Hooma also seems to think that elementalists are overpowered.
I’m just going to have to leave that there.

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Posted by: ThiBash.5634

ThiBash.5634

The reason why this is a problem can be seen from the following:

Before the change, an ele had the option to use an on-kill stack sigil on a different staff, and then swap to different staff once the stack was filled. They would keep the stack until they got defeated, which essentially gave them the effect of 2 sigils.

In the new situation, the ele can equip a on-kill stack sigil next to their regular combat sigil. The net result is the same: 2 sigils.

Meanwhile, the greatsword warrior (who also had a single sigil) now can use the on-kill stack sigil on his alternate set and get 2 combat sigils on his main weapon. This means he effectively gained an extra sigil.

And that is why this change will nerf eles instead of buffing them.

If you can read this then it is proof that ArenaNet’s moderators just, kind and fair.

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Posted by: hooma.9642

hooma.9642

The reason why this is a problem can be seen from the following:

Before the change, an ele had the option to use an on-kill stack sigil on a different staff, and then swap to different staff once the stack was filled. They would keep the stack until they got defeated, which essentially gave them the effect of 2 sigils.

In the new situation, the ele can equip a on-kill stack sigil next to their regular combat sigil. The net result is the same: 2 sigils.

Meanwhile, the greatsword warrior (who also had a single sigil) now can use the on-kill stack sigil on his alternate set and get 2 combat sigils on his main weapon. This means he effectively gained an extra sigil.

And that is why this change will nerf eles instead of buffing them.

first of all. what u describe after the patch is already in game in pvp.

second your warriors “alternate set” is not an alternate set! seems you have problems understand that other classes need more weaponsets.

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Posted by: ThiBash.5634

ThiBash.5634

Sorry, I figured I’d make an attempt. I thought I was pretty clear in my explanation.

Ele/Engi: 1 stack sigil + 1 other.
Rest: 1 stack sigil + 3 other.

Can’t make it any clearer than that…

If you can read this then it is proof that ArenaNet’s moderators just, kind and fair.

(edited by Moderator)

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Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

Sorry, I figured I’d make an attempt. I thought I was pretty clear in my explanation.

Ele/Engi: 1 stack sigil + 1 other.
Rest: 1 stack sigil + 3 other.

Can’t make it any clearer than that…

Yup. That’s the gist of the situation. It is not that bad currently because we could have a spare weapon with our stack sigil in our bag. After patch we can no longer do this however so ele/engie’s are down one sigil and two handers go up one sigil. Essentially rifle staff engie/ele’s remain the same as now. engie/ele’s (PP, P/S OR D/D, S/F, D/F, S/D) with any of the other weapon Combination’s lose access to that extra sigil (down to 2 sigils from 3) so all six other classes have 4 sigils across the board, engie/ ele’s get 2 across the board.
Now that we have got that out of the way I would love if we could keep this thread on topic discussing possible idea’s and/or fixes for this issue and if at all possible keep the general discussion in the other thread, thanks.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Sigils-Ele-and-Engineer-punished

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

(edited by Moderator)

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Posted by: hooma.9642

hooma.9642

Sorry, I figured I’d make an attempt. I thought I was pretty clear in my explanation.

Ele/Engi: 1 stack sigil + 1 other.
Rest: 1 stack sigil + 3 other.

Can’t make it any clearer than that…

simple math and logic u still fail to understand that the type of sigill doesnt matter. 1 group can equip 4. the other 2. simple is that.

u could exploit the system in wvw and pve with stacking sigill, but that will be shut down after patch. it also hasnt changed anything except numbers, 1 group 5, the other 3.

is it a disadvantage? yes it is, but is only a very very little disadvantage that get compensated enough throught 4 attunments on ele or on engi with minimum 4 toolbelt skills and several kits.

(edited by Moderator)

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Except it isn’t a little disadvantage, and it isn’t compensated at all by the class mechanics.
I’m not an expert on the elementalist class, so i’ll talk about the engineer.
And a class like the engineer, by default, has less skills than any other class. As kits are optional and should be treated like so when balancing the class on the whole. Also, toolbelt skills are already balanced with the utility they’re paired up…often making for limited effects in both of them. The only case were there was a good effect on the toolbelt – toss elixir R – they nerfed the utility to the floor.
And what about other classes, like guardians, who’ve got 3 signets as their mechanic and yet have a second weapon and related sigils?
There is simply a bias in how the classes are balanced, that’s the problem.
But that should be clear enough, seeing they didn’t even care to make a single reply about the whole issue.

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Posted by: hooma.9642

hooma.9642

Except it isn’t a little disadvantage, and it isn’t compensated at all by the class mechanics.
I’m not an expert on the elementalist class, so i’ll talk about the engineer.
And a class like the engineer, by default, has less skills than any other class. As kits are optional and should be treated like so when balancing the class on the whole. Also, toolbelt skills are already balanced with the utility they’re paired up…often making for limited effects in both of them. The only case were there was a good effect on the toolbelt – toss elixir R – they nerfed the utility to the floor.
And what about other classes, like guardians, who’ve got 3 signets as their mechanic and yet have a second weapon and related sigils?
There is simply a bias in how the classes are balanced, that’s the problem.
But that should be clear enough, seeing they didn’t even care to make a single reply about the whole issue.

how i already said. for pvp will nothing chance except no more shared icd.

in pve it doesnt matter if some can equip 2 sigills more or not.

in wvw it doesnt matter also. the possible gap between stats is already out of control with food and all the other stuff that add stats. so why cry for 2 sigills less then other classes if it doesnt decide a fight?

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Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

Except it isn’t a little disadvantage, and it isn’t compensated at all by the class mechanics.
I’m not an expert on the elementalist class, so i’ll talk about the engineer.
And a class like the engineer, by default, has less skills than any other class. As kits are optional and should be treated like so when balancing the class on the whole. Also, toolbelt skills are already balanced with the utility they’re paired up…often making for limited effects in both of them. The only case were there was a good effect on the toolbelt – toss elixir R – they nerfed the utility to the floor.
And what about other classes, like guardians, who’ve got 3 signets as their mechanic and yet have a second weapon and related sigils?
There is simply a bias in how the classes are balanced, that’s the problem.
But that should be clear enough, seeing they didn’t even care to make a single reply about the whole issue.

how i already said. for pvp will nothing chance except no more shared icd.

in pve it doesnt matter if some can equip 2 sigills more or not.

in wvw it doesnt matter also. the possible gap between stats is already out of control with food and all the other stuff that add stats. so why cry for 2 sigills less then other classes if it doesnt decide a fight?

but it could deside a fight, thats the problem. Being able to stack bloodlust and use a superior sigil of force and strength (ham/bow cough cough) or bloodlust and air and fire (thief cough cough) sounds like a big deal to me.
So once again and I would love to here your thoughts and your idea’s to solve this issue and once again please post any general discussion (such as is it or is it not an advantage posts) in the thread below;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Sigils-Ele-and-Engineer-punished

:)

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

They could buff up the Ele 15 point traits. They should be just as strong, if not a little stronger than Sigils. Seeing as we are having to spend 15 trait points to get them.

I would do the following:

Sunspot: Add 3 second Burning to all those affected
Electric Discharge: Add 3 second Blind
Earthen Blast: Add 3 Stacks of Torment for 5 seconds to all those affected
Healing Ripple: Increase Healing or add 4-5 second Regen and 3 second to allies

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Posted by: hooma.9642

hooma.9642

Except it isn’t a little disadvantage, and it isn’t compensated at all by the class mechanics.
I’m not an expert on the elementalist class, so i’ll talk about the engineer.
And a class like the engineer, by default, has less skills than any other class. As kits are optional and should be treated like so when balancing the class on the whole. Also, toolbelt skills are already balanced with the utility they’re paired up…often making for limited effects in both of them. The only case were there was a good effect on the toolbelt – toss elixir R – they nerfed the utility to the floor.
And what about other classes, like guardians, who’ve got 3 signets as their mechanic and yet have a second weapon and related sigils?
There is simply a bias in how the classes are balanced, that’s the problem.
But that should be clear enough, seeing they didn’t even care to make a single reply about the whole issue.

how i already said. for pvp will nothing chance except no more shared icd.

in pve it doesnt matter if some can equip 2 sigills more or not.

in wvw it doesnt matter also. the possible gap between stats is already out of control with food and all the other stuff that add stats. so why cry for 2 sigills less then other classes if it doesnt decide a fight?

but it could deside a fight, thats the problem. Being able to stack bloodlust and use a superior sigil of force and strength (ham/bow cough cough) or bloodlust and air and fire (thief cough cough) sounds like a big deal to me.
So once again and I would love to here your thoughts and your idea’s to solve this issue and once again please post any general discussion (such as is it or is it not an advantage posts) in the thread below;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Sigils-Ele-and-Engineer-punished

:)

the chance that it really decides a fight is very very small. the difference in your example is either 250 less power or 5% less dmg or less air procs or less fire procs or less might (i doubt it regarding ele) or 5% less crit chance. all in all not that of a big difference to decide the outcome of a fight. usually its a fail dodge or anything else.

during a fight are only 2 sigills at maximum active (only current weaponset). the only advantage other classes have are either that difference of statpoints or more flexibility on other weaponsets. but an ele and engi has even more flexibility with attunements and toolbelt skills or kits.

and as a hint: the most powerfull sigill is energy. thats the only that really can decide a close fight.

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Posted by: Elestian.6134

Elestian.6134

The reason why this is a problem can be seen from the following:

To be fair, we may still be able to use trident to gain on-kill sigil stacks for a similar effect. So would everyone else though, so the result (and your math) is the same…

Sure, I’m dissastified with eles/engies being shortchanged on sigils. But I can’t deny I’m still delighted that players won’t be able gain these stacks using weapons they don’t even keep equipped. Always seemed like a lame tactic.