Guild Wars 2

killahmayne.9518:

Really??? Don’t like 12K Eviscerates? Then stop running around with 1800 armor seriously. It is kind of funny that these are the kind of people that are complaining. Don’t run glass then, or if you do, don’t complain if you get hit that hard.

I’ve played Axe Warrior and in most of my experience I have rarely ever hit 12K unless it was on an uplevel. I could probably count the amount of times on my finger.

There is probably a reason why I don’t run axe at all. It is mostly a dueling build, and I would argue it isn’t even the best dueling build for a warrior. It has no CC except for the shield, and you pretty much have to equip Bull’s Rush on your utility bar.

You can kite circles around this build literally. Some of the problems I have had while running this build was blind spam and evasion by thieves and also condis. A ranger’s combination of soft CC, range and evasion, a PU mesmer’s high uptime on aegis, blocking and protection, Guardian’s protection and aegis/blocking. And really, it isn’t nearly as good in teamfights as let us say a hammer or a longbow.

In order to hit 12K you need to have a fairly potent combination of might stacks and glass cannon attributes. Because on most decently armored targets, my eviscerates will hit for 6K or less. And it isn’t like you can spam it in duels either. You need to be close to the target, have full adrenaline and most likely some form of CC to guarantee a hit. Eviscerate can be countered by so many things. Cripples, chills and immobilizes, even for a second or two drastically reduce the leap distance. Blind, evasion, blocking, aegis all stop it. Staying out of range stops it.

Honestly run Axe Warrior in WvW and eventually you will pretty much wonder why you didn’t use hammer instead and get tired of being cheesed so hard by all these other builds that are out there. People act like this build is unstoppable and can’t be killed and one shots people all the time. Dude, that is your fault lol. I wouldn’t even call any build involving Axe a top-tier 1v1 build. Not even if it is paired with longbow.

Celestial Axe/Longbow might be decent, but that is as far as it goes.

12k is an exaggeration, with celest/axe might stacking war more like 7k-10k on most targets. 1v1 isnt the main issue its in team fights with might stacks up you have 21k+ hp 1100 condi damage, 2100+k power and 2.9k armor its gets pretty ridiculous. It synergies so well with guards its get pretty stupid. The success you can have with such a simple build is off and unlike other complained about builds this one is optimal at high levels of play.

Iavra.8510:

Mind, that is only 1 skill. If it was the only i ever had to dodge against a warrior, it probably would be ok,

Well it really should be the only skill you’d need to dodge together with maybe pindown, because as a shatter mesmer you should not stand in melee range and take a beating like a training dummy.

Kiting a GS + Axe/Sword Warrior sure is easy when he only has WW, Rush, Eviscerate, Bull’s Charge, Throw Axe, Bladetrail (Cripple) + long Duration Swiftness.

Iavra.8510:

Kiting a GS + Axe/Sword Warrior sure is easy when he only has WW, Rush, Eviscerate, Bull’s Charge, Throw Axe, Bladetrail (Cripple) + long Duration Swiftness.

Have you ever tried kiting a thief? At least you can kite a warrior….

silentnight warrior.2714:

alchemyst.2165:

silentnight warrior.2714:

NinjaEd.3946:

Its a hella strong skill. Reason I question why all burst skills have a 10 second cooldown, as if they are balanced around that. cough combustive shot cough

So… What is the cooldown of backstab? or any thief skill?

At least 3 seconds, then we have to actually hit our CnD (which is a challenge in itself) then we have to actually hit your back (which is a challenge in itself) and if we don’t we waste 6 initiative yayy

You dont have that problem with d/p.

So your suggestion is, we should just play d/p so you complain about it?

Hardly seems fair, how about you live without cleansing ire because it excels in its field.

Darksun.1054:

Olba.5376:

Harper.4173:

Vs no armor? Really?

Let’s be honest here – if you’re getting hit for more than 12k by an evis that warrior is full glass and can melt if you focus him.

Of course he hits hard with 0 defense.

Which was really my point. All those high hits only work because they’re from a glass cannon in a very good scenario. Heck, I run axe/shield with Knight armor and Berserker trinkets and I pretty much never see >10k eviscerates.

No zerker gear equipped during the screen shots. 100% Valk/Cav gear with sigil of intelgence. 2.8k toughness and over 22k hp

Of course. Then why wasn’t it filmed as a video?
Where is the evidence?!

bigmonto.4215:

Zacchary.6183:

I’ve been on a warrior for the past 7.5 months and I fail to see these weaknesses, unless we are talking about the inability to excel by slapping the keyboard.

That’s funny I have never seem you in the warrior forum. So I ask you what are you doing with the warrior in the past 7.5 month. Oh yeah you were playing a Thief. Lol.

By that logic, I can say I have been an Elementalist for the past year, that doesn’t mean I know much about them. Even then I can think of several things they can do to stop an axe warrior. The same goes for Thief, Guardian, Mesmer which I also play.

I don’t need to be on the warrior forums. In fact, I don’t want to go on the warrior forums because there is little to nothing that forum will do for me. It is filled with people crying for highly undeserved buffs (moar deeps), poor reasons to divert QQ away from the profession and players telling newbies that specific builds are the only viable ones available.

Now I am a theorycrafter by nature, I like to explore certain things instead of going off of people’s word and sticking with metas. I’ve already theorycrafted thief to hell and decided to expand on other professions. Warrior and mesmer happened to be the first candidates. Since then, I have yet to find any weakness a warrior may have that can not be easily covered through personal skill, skills or traits.

Comparing thief to the war, a thief can’t simply deal craploads of damage all of the time or simply recover mid combat or simply remove conditions or simply do whatever they feel like doing. Playing a thief is like solving a 3D puzzle and then playing Operation with it. You mess up a few times and you are dead.

With a war, its like all I really need to is gear glassy, spec tanky and then make sure I keep up the pressure. And that has quickly gotten boring. At least with a mesmer, I have some form of challenge trying to make certain builds work.

Perhaps just increasing burst CD from 10 to 15s?

Chokolata.1870:

Perhaps just increasing burst CD from 10 to 15s?

I think I would rather want to see adrenaline gain made harder.

As it is at the moment you need 30 ticks of adrenaline for level 3. We could easily increase this to 60 ticks, making the adrenaline gain way harder and making all those adrenaline gain traits and utilities way more useful.

As it is right now you don’t really need the extra adrenaline from axe crits or other stuff like that because you will gain adrenaline so fast that they are waste of traits. But if adrenaline levels were harder to obtain, these traits would become more useful. With right trait placement and utility usage you could still dish out evis every 7 seconds if you wanted, but at least you would have to trait for the adrenaline gaining.

Bash me as much you want fellow warriors, but this change would solve CI being OP and burst skill spamming, at least a bit.

Ezeriel.9574:

A warrior landing 12k eviscerates is full glass.

If i compare my Warrior in full zerker to my Engineer, the latter has either vitality or toughness on every piece of gear. My Warrior, despite having ZERO vitality or toughness still has both more health and more armor.
Not to mention better healing and far better condition removal. Thats not even counting utility skills yet.

So there is no such thing as a glass warrior. Only relative to other Warriors could a Warrior build be considered “glassy”.

I think I would rather want to see adrenaline gain made harder.

I already made a proposal in another thread:
- Remove adrenaline gain from Cleansing Ire and let it cleanse 1 condition per burst ability, not per bar spent.
- Burst skills consume adrenaline, no matter if they miss or not.

-> Adrenaline is harder to get, weakness against conditions increased, more reliable cleanse without having to rely on LB.

If you tweak the numbers on the heals a bit, Mending or Healing Surge could even become usable with this.

Iavra.8510:

I think I would rather want to see adrenaline gain made harder.

I already made a proposal in another thread:
- Remove adrenaline gain from Cleansing Ire and let it cleanse 1 condition per burst ability, not per bar spent.
- Burst skills consume adrenaline, no matter if they miss or not.

-> Adrenaline is harder to get, weakness against conditions increased, more reliable cleanse without having to rely on LB.

If you tweak the numbers on the heals a bit, Mending or Healing Surge could even become usable with this.

Actually if they buff both healing skills as you said i can see this works. But untill then there should be no change.

Terrahero.9358:

Ezeriel.9574:

A warrior landing 12k eviscerates is full glass.

If i compare my Warrior in full zerker to my Engineer, the latter has either vitality or toughness on every piece of gear. My Warrior, despite having ZERO vitality or toughness still has both more health and more armor.
Not to mention better healing and far better condition removal. Thats not even counting utility skills yet.

So there is no such thing as a glass warrior. Only relative to other Warriors could a Warrior build be considered “glassy”.

A full zerker warrior with good condition removal has to trait for it. Try to do the same to your class.

Zacchary.6183:

I don’t need to be on the warrior forums. In fact, I don’t want to go on the warrior forums because there is little to nothing that forum will do for me. It is filled with people crying for highly undeserved buffs (moar deeps), poor reasons to divert QQ away from the profession and players telling newbies that specific builds are the only viable ones available.

Now I am a theorycrafter by nature, I like to explore certain things instead of going off of people’s word and sticking with metas. I’ve already theorycrafted thief to hell and decided to expand on other professions. Warrior and mesmer happened to be the first candidates. Since then, I have yet to find any weakness a warrior may have that can not be easily covered through personal skill, skills or traits.

Comparing thief to the war, a thief can’t simply deal craploads of damage all of the time or simply recover mid combat or simply remove conditions or simply do whatever they feel like doing. Playing a thief is like solving a 3D puzzle and then playing Operation with it. You mess up a few times and you are dead.

With a war, its like all I really need to is gear glassy, spec tanky and then make sure I keep up the pressure. And that has quickly gotten boring. At least with a mesmer, I have some form of challenge trying to make certain builds work.

So do you actually play enough to actually verify your theorycrafting? What’s on paper != actually what happens in the game.

The biggest misconception about warriors is that it has no weakness. There has been many discussion on this topic. But in truth warrior has access to a lot of builds, and each build actually have different weakness. Take Warrior Axe for example, is a rather limited weapon in terms of utility, its only damaging attack in pvp is evis. As it is a leap, it has its issues with any movement conditions. Warrior also dependent on it for conditional removal. It is also very susceptible to blind, and blocks. Even with GS, all you really have to watch out for is evis, shield bash, and bull charge. And the latter 2 is on long cooldowns. Yes not all build can counter it, but it can be counter by many in most situations. If you actually play one is sPvP or WvW, you will realize its not a easy build to play at all.

There are builds with thief and mesmer that are just as forgiving. The immortal p/d build or the infamous PU build to name a couple. There are also warrior builds that are tricky to pull off a win. AXE + GS actually is not a noob friendly build in most game modes. Unless against someone who doesn’t even build their character for pvp then yeah I guess 1-shot-kill could be a problem. I don’t know what you would call these, pve noobs?

bigmonto.4215:

Zacchary.6183:

I don’t need to be on the warrior forums. In fact, I don’t want to go on the warrior forums because there is little to nothing that forum will do for me. It is filled with people crying for highly undeserved buffs (moar deeps), poor reasons to divert QQ away from the profession and players telling newbies that specific builds are the only viable ones available.

Now I am a theorycrafter by nature, I like to explore certain things instead of going off of people’s word and sticking with metas. I’ve already theorycrafted thief to hell and decided to expand on other professions. Warrior and mesmer happened to be the first candidates. Since then, I have yet to find any weakness a warrior may have that can not be easily covered through personal skill, skills or traits.

Comparing thief to the war, a thief can’t simply deal craploads of damage all of the time or simply recover mid combat or simply remove conditions or simply do whatever they feel like doing. Playing a thief is like solving a 3D puzzle and then playing Operation with it. You mess up a few times and you are dead.

With a war, its like all I really need to is gear glassy, spec tanky and then make sure I keep up the pressure. And that has quickly gotten boring. At least with a mesmer, I have some form of challenge trying to make certain builds work.

So do you actually play enough to actually verify your theorycrafting? What’s on paper != actually what happens in the game.

The biggest misconception about warriors is that it has no weakness. There has been many discussion on this topic. But in truth warrior has access to a lot of builds, and each build actually have different weakness. Take Warrior Axe for example, is a rather limited weapon in terms of utility, its only damaging attack in pvp is evis. As it is a leap, it has its issues with any movement conditions. Warrior also dependent on it for conditional removal. It is also very susceptible to blind, and blocks. Even with GS, all you really have to watch out for is evis, shield bash, and bull charge. And the latter 2 is on long cooldowns. Yes not all build can counter it, but it can be counter by many in most situations. If you actually play one is sPvP or WvW, you will realize its not a easy build to play at all.

There are builds with thief and mesmer that are just as forgiving. The immortal p/d build or the infamous PU build to name a couple. There are also warrior builds that are tricky to pull off a win. AXE + GS actually is not a noob friendly build in most game modes. Unless against someone who doesn’t even build their character for pvp then yeah I guess 1-shot-kill could be a problem. I don’t know what you would call these, pve noobs?

2 things about this:
1. the perma stealth condition theives/mesmers can hardly kill anything, much less keep a point from being decapped, unless your enemy is too stupid to entertain your jumping around and never dying. Warriors on the other hand can both do damage and keep on a capture point and dominate said capture point all with a very low skill floor.

2. While its true that different warrior builds have different weaknesses, none of you are questioning whether or not that is fair or healthy. Most other classes have one universal weakness across all viable builds, like necros are always weak to focus fire/CC and engis are always weak to conditions/CC and mesmers are always weak to AoE, and Guardians and Eles are always weak to boon stripping/stealing/corruption. They can make certain choices and sacrifices to minimize or lessen some of those weaknesses but they cannot fully remove that universal class weakness. Warriors on the other hand can remove that universal class weakness so that its different from build to build, but theres no consistent weakness across each different viable build in the class.

I hope you understand my point because I’ve made it several times on thesee warrior threads, but NO ONE ever comments on it or responds or even tries to prove me wrong. They just ignore me, because they don’t want to give in to the argument of myself and others, not even a little bit.

nearlight.3064:

2 things about this:
1. the perma stealth condition theives/mesmers can hardly kill anything, much less keep a point from being decapped, unless your enemy is too stupid to entertain your jumping around and never dying. Warriors on the other hand can both do damage and keep on a capture point and dominate said capture point all with a very low skill floor.

I am going to have to completely disagree with you on that one. Both of these build are quite capable on killing. Yes they don’t have big attacks that does a lot of dam, but over time, they so really well. As for capture point, this once again you are thinking about warriors in general, and not based on builds. Take Axe + GS, how does it capture point really well? You can run around him in circles on the point. And when he is faced with 2, he melt. If you are talking about ham-bow, how does it do huge damage? In fact his advantage is completely lost if you don’t stay on point. You don’t see these around in wvw do you? Each of these two build are completely different have different strength and weaknesses.

nearlight.3064:

2. While its true that different warrior builds have different weaknesses, none of you are questioning whether or not that is fair or healthy. Most other classes have one universal weakness across all viable builds, like necros are always weak to focus fire/CC and engis are always weak to conditions/CC and mesmers are always weak to AoE, and Guardians and Eles are always weak to boon stripping/stealing/corruption. They can make certain choices and sacrifices to minimize or lessen some of those weaknesses but they cannot fully remove that universal class weakness. Warriors on the other hand can remove that universal class weakness so that its different from build to build, but theres no consistent weakness across each different viable build in the class.

I hope you understand my point because I’ve made it several times on thesee warrior threads, but NO ONE ever comments on it or responds or even tries to prove me wrong. They just ignore me, because they don’t want to give in to the argument of myself and others, not even a little bit.

In terms of warrior’s general weakness, conditions, obvious animations, and susceptible to burst are probably his universal ones. Condition issue is less of a weakness for Long bow. You can argue all you want this one, the truth is we spend more than half of our utilities + major traits selection to lessen this weakness. But this is a whole other thread.

As for fairness, I cannot comment whether its fair, but I can say it is certainly good to have options. I would say its better for other classes to have more options then for warrior to have less options. I believe Anet believe in it as well, and they are trying to add more options. Having options however does not mean a class is OPed. I hope you understand my point as well.

Like anyone actually sees Evsicerate coming through the multitude of particle effects anyway? I’ve noticed Eviscerate deaths becoming a scary trend as of late. Sure I love that axe is being used more in a structured setting and it’s about time but this is a little ridiculous.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Terrahero.9358:

Ezeriel.9574:

A warrior landing 12k eviscerates is full glass.

If i compare my Warrior in full zerker to my Engineer, the latter has either vitality or toughness on every piece of gear. My Warrior, despite having ZERO vitality or toughness still has both more health and more armor.
Not to mention better healing and far better condition removal. Thats not even counting utility skills yet.

So there is no such thing as a glass warrior. Only relative to other Warriors could a Warrior build be considered “glassy”.

A full zerker warrior with good condition removal has to trait for it. Try to do the same to your class.

Funny thats the only thing you even try to content. Secondly, on my Warrior i can afford to spec for such a trait. I still maintain my high burst and substain.
Those are 4 points that get me great return without forcing me to give up doing something else really well.

Warrior isnt the only one that can pick up great condition removal, not by a long shot. However Warriors can pick it up while still being good at almost everything else. I prefer higher mobility, as a result my CC is relatively weak, “just” 2 hard-CCs.
But i still keep high healing, high armor, high subtainain/burst, high mobility and high health. And then ofcourse, also great condition removal.

More on topic about Eviscerate

There is another problem with this ability when comboing it with Shield Bash. If you get hit by Shield Bash you’re stunned and obviously you will eat that follow-up Eviscerate.
And if you try to dodge Shield Bash, the timing of the Shield Bash animation into Eviscerate lands just so perfectly that you get just out of your dodge animation when Eviscerate lands. Meaning even if you dodge Shield Bash, that follow-up Eviscerate still is very likely to land. It just syncs up kitten near perfectly.

Ofcourse you could double-dodge or blow a long cooldown, but with Eviscerate on just a 10 (or as low as 7) second cooldown. You will run out of dodges and cooldowns pretty kitten quickly, and that manslayer of an Eviscerate will land sooner rather then later.
If Warrior was truely glassy in order to pull such numbers off, then it wouldnt be to much of a problem. You could evade an Eviscerate or two and your opponent would be dead. But the quite durable Warrior will be able to substain a fight long enough to exhaust your defenses

bigmonto.4215:

See this is a typical problem with the average player. They expect an win without effort.

Wait dude the problem here is that there alot of builds that beat others WITHOUT effort, and some plp just use the top builds just to make not any effort.

Darksun.1054:

No zerker gear equipped during the screen shots. 100% Valk/Cav gear with sigil of intelgence. 2.8k toughness and over 22k hp

Maybe that’s why I’ve recently encountered quite a few Warriors who’ve hit me (currently running a glassy Mesmer shatter-build) for at least 1k-2,5k with every single attack (even autoattacks), while a full 4clone-shatter of me would maybe do like 1k dmg each clone on them. And I mean… even if I WOULD have gotten them low somehow without dying myself… they’d still have those stances and stuff.

Ezeriel.9574:

A warrior landing 12k eviscerates is full glass. A thief gets stealth, a warrior gets Defy Pain.. but if you think of them as thieves they’re not so bad.

There are warriors running around, that do insane damage, and never die. They barely take any damage at all, and conditions have no effect on them…. (not talking about the stance)

…when you see one of those ones, just report them. Let Anet sort it out.

I run celestial or valks 2/0/6/0/6 warrior… Not full glass by any stretch. I regularly land 10k+ eviscerates.

Eviscerate sure does trivialise many fights and I don’t believe it’s particularly healthy for the game in its current state. It’s an easy to land heatseeking leap that does not require much in the way of glass investment to cause an insane amount of damage. It was palatable in the past because Warrior was far more “do or die”, but now it just doesn’t feel right.

bigmonto.4215:

So do you actually play enough to actually verify your theorycrafting? What’s on paper != actually what happens in the game.

The biggest misconception about warriors is that it has no weakness. There has been many discussion on this topic. But in truth warrior has access to a lot of builds, and each build actually have different weakness. Take Warrior Axe for example, is a rather limited weapon in terms of utility, its only damaging attack in pvp is evis. As it is a leap, it has its issues with any movement conditions. Warrior also dependent on it for conditional removal. It is also very susceptible to blind, and blocks. Even with GS, all you really have to watch out for is evis, shield bash, and bull charge. And the latter 2 is on long cooldowns. Yes not all build can counter it, but it can be counter by many in most situations. If you actually play one is sPvP or WvW, you will realize its not a easy build to play at all.

There are builds with thief and mesmer that are just as forgiving. The immortal p/d build or the infamous PU build to name a couple. There are also warrior builds that are tricky to pull off a win. AXE + GS actually is not a noob friendly build in most game modes. Unless against someone who doesn’t even build their character for pvp then yeah I guess 1-shot-kill could be a problem. I don’t know what you would call these, pve noobs?

There is a difference between “effective” and “forgiving”. “Forgiving” builds are builds that allow you to make mistakes while still being “effective”. Every thief build is more or less “effective” but the class as a whole is unforgiving because:

1.) The thief profession has arguably the worst condition removal, stun breaks and healing (unless you are a kitten with SoM). The profession doesn’t have very much cushioning when they take a hit, unlike warrior that can dance around banners in zerker armor and heal conditions when they slap F1. Onto #2…

2.) Since a thief’s damage mitigation is complete crap, it forces the profession to concentrate more on avoidance. For example blinds, dropping target and visuals via stealth and by timing evasion whereas the warrior can just scream his head off and get back health or wtfbbq their enemy and remove conditions. Thief’s damage avoidance can only last so long and do so much because #3…

3.) Thieves have a resource pool that allows everything aside from the auto attack to be usable. Most of the on-demand damage avoidance is tied to these skills and the rest are on moderate cooldowns. Not only that, the thief can’t just switch to the other weaponset and keep going when their initiative dries out because guess what… those skills use initiative aswell. No initiative = no on-demand avoidance = meat popcicle. Is a warrior screwed when he runs out of adrenaline? No, and even then they can get it back before the burst goes off cooldown.

Warrior is overpowered. Anyone that has a remote idea of game balance knows this.

Not only are they the most forgiving class to play, which allows them to perform all sorts of mistakes while still having plenty of chances to kill their enemies with ease (or just run away with impunity), but they’re also extremely strong in every single aspect of this game, from pve to pvp and a nice chunk of wvw too.

Now that seems like a balanced and perfectly viable class… except that is the definition of overpowered. When you have a class that can do almost everything with 0 weaknesses, while even being as good as other professions in their signature strengths (mobility, sustain, cc, etc), you have a huge problem.

The way I see it… is that usually, in pvp, classes allow little room for mistake (some more than others), and then we have warriors. A class that was basically designed with the mindset of giving their users all the help and assistance in their imminent, constant and unavoidable misplays. It’s like having ANet tell me “Here, take these tools, because you ARE going to get outplayed for various reasons that I cannot disclose. So outplay their carefully planned maneuvers with these instant press-to-win buttons!”. I wouldn’t be able to ever play this class and sleep well at night.

The risk / reward tradeoff is broken for this one. It has been for a very long time.

Say, if every class has by default 10 points that are spread between mobility, durability, damage and cc warrior would get 15.

Example:
Thief
Mob: xxxx
Dura: x
Dmg: xxxx
CC: x

Ele (d/d)
Mob: xx
Dura: xxx
Dmg: xx
CC: xx

Warrior
Mob: xxxx
Dura: xxxx
Dmg: xxxx
CC: xxx

It’s that bad.

Zacchary.6183:

There is a difference between “effective” and “forgiving”. “Forgiving” builds are builds that allow you to make mistakes while still being “effective”. Every thief build is more or less “effective” but the class as a whole is unforgiving because:

1.) The thief profession has arguably the worst condition removal, stun breaks and healing (unless you are a kitten with SoM). The profession doesn’t have very much cushioning when they take a hit, unlike warrior that can dance around banners in zerker armor and heal conditions when they slap F1. Onto #2…

2.) Since a thief’s damage mitigation is complete crap, it forces the profession to concentrate more on avoidance. For example blinds, dropping target and visuals via stealth and by timing evasion whereas the warrior can just scream his head off and get back health or wtfbbq their enemy and remove conditions. Thief’s damage avoidance can only last so long and do so much because #3…

3.) Thieves have a resource pool that allows everything aside from the auto attack to be usable. Most of the on-demand damage avoidance is tied to these skills and the rest are on moderate cooldowns. Not only that, the thief can’t just switch to the other weaponset and keep going when their initiative dries out because guess what… those skills use initiative aswell. No initiative = no on-demand avoidance = meat popcicle. Is a warrior screwed when he runs out of adrenaline? No, and even then they can get it back before the burst goes off cooldown.

Do you even play the Thief? Here is the stats on my Thief

3k armor
18k health
1.8k conditional damage

4 sec stealth, 1 condition cleanse going into stealth, 1 more 3 sec later
323 per sec healing in stealth (this is in addition to the healing skill, and shadow refuge)

Can go into stealth every 4 sec, which means I can hide in stealth forever, and can cleanse 2 conditions per stealth.

Can do a burst of 5k bleed from range every 4 sec in additon to 1 to 2k torment (spammable) and 1.3k confusion.

Yeah you can say conditional bunker is OPed. This build can cleanse condition better than LB warrior. It gets almost as much armor, and can disengage at will. I cannot die 1v1, even in 1v5 I can always get away. You think this build is not “Forgiving”? You think warrior is more “Forgiving” than this build?

Easy + OP build is everywhere.

But seriously this is about Eviscerate and the OP is playing a mesmer. Why are you thief main come here to complain? Last I check there are just as many if not more threads about thief being OPed. And guess what you guys get to choose the fight, and there is ZERO risk for you to engage, after all you can always disengage. This is what I call truly “forgiving”.

Razor.6392:

….

Say, if every class has by default 10 points that are spread between mobility, durability, damage and cc warrior would get 15.

….

Warrior
Mob: xxxx
Dura: xxxx
Dmg: xxxx
CC: xxx

It’s that bad.

Can you give me that build for warrior that has excellent mobility, excellent durability, excellent damage and very good CC, please? Because I have yet to witness such build myself yet.

Also, this topic was about the evisicrate, not how fast warrior can move with GS.

Paavotar.3971:

Razor.6392:

….

Say, if every class has by default 10 points that are spread between mobility, durability, damage and cc warrior would get 15.

….

Warrior
Mob: xxxx
Dura: xxxx
Dmg: xxxx
CC: xxx

It’s that bad.

Can you give me that build for warrior that has excellent mobility, excellent durability, excellent damage and very good CC, please? Because I have yet to witness such build myself yet.

Also, this topic was about the evisicrate, not how fast warrior can move with GS.

Gumster of General Underworld Mayhem [GuM]
Mouggari – Warrior – Candy cane Avenger

Razor.6392:

Paavotar.3971:

Razor.6392:

….

Say, if every class has by default 10 points that are spread between mobility, durability, damage and cc warrior would get 15.

….

Warrior
Mob: xxxx
Dura: xxxx
Dmg: xxxx
CC: xxx

It’s that bad.

Can you give me that build for warrior that has excellent mobility, excellent durability, excellent damage and very good CC, please? Because I have yet to witness such build myself yet.

Also, this topic was about the evisicrate, not how fast warrior can move with GS.

Gumster of General Underworld Mayhem [GuM]
Mouggari – Warrior – Candy cane Avenger

Why thank you, I know my own builds are rather good and they do well in WvW, but I am still interested about that build that seems to be far superior to any of my builds so far, therefor I am kindly asking if you could provide me with it?

The only thing they should change with burstskills is to lose at least one adrenaline bar when used. Right now dodging those isn’t useful because the war can just use it again sooner.

I would prefer a cut on the long lasting stability, the passiv “I take no damage” and/or the never ending gapclosers.

LunarNacht.8913:

The only thing they should change with burstskills is to lose at least one adrenaline bar when used. Right now dodging those isn’t useful because the war can just use it again sooner.

I would prefer a cut on the long lasting stability, the passiv “I take no damage” and/or the never ending gapclosers.

Actually it is useful to dodge them for Cleansing Ire. If you dodge burst skills the warrior can’t cleanse conditions as well as it usually can. And most cases when you see a warrior with GS they don’t want to waste their adrenaline on GS burst so they won’t try to use that burst afterwards, so dodging/interrupting/blinding one skill will A.) Put their burst into CD, B.) Won’t cleanse 3 conditions and C.) Neglect big part of their damage/control

bigmonto.4215:

Do you even play the Thief? Here is the stats on my Thief

3k armor
18k health
1.8k conditional damage

4 sec stealth, 1 condition cleanse going into stealth, 1 more 3 sec later
323 per sec healing in stealth (this is in addition to the healing skill, and shadow refuge)

Can go into stealth every 4 sec, which means I can hide in stealth forever, and can cleanse 2 conditions per stealth.

Can do a burst of 5k bleed from range every 4 sec in additon to 1 to 2k torment (spammable) and 1.3k confusion.

Yeah you can say conditional bunker is OPed. This build can cleanse condition better than LB warrior. It gets almost as much armor, and can disengage at will. I cannot die 1v1, even in 1v5 I can always get away. You think this build is not “Forgiving”? You think warrior is more “Forgiving” than this build?

Easy + OP build is everywhere.

But seriously this is about Eviscerate and the OP is playing a mesmer. Why are you thief main come here to complain? Last I check there are just as many if not more threads about thief being OPed. And guess what you guys get to choose the fight, and there is ZERO risk for you to engage, after all you can always disengage. This is what I call truly “forgiving”.

I’m just trying to clear up a bit of misconception both with me and my favorite profession.

For example, if you are constantly in stealth to cleanse conditions then you aren’t doing much damage. The people who should really care about it are those who have no experience with stealth at all.

Another thing, I have a d/d hybrid build that would melt your build due to the fact that it’s AoE bleeding and cripples will render most condition cleanse and mobility useless. So not only will it be very hard to run away but you will be bleeding heavily in the process.

But let me ask you this… can you do all that without stealth? I am pretty sure a warrior of the same skill can.

Actually it is useful to dodge them for Cleansing Ire.

I’m actually pretty sure nobody ever thinks “i have to dodge this eviscerate, because otherwise that warrior will heal 3 conditions”, because if they are hit they are kind of dead, anyway.

/edit: Now that i think about it, Eviscerate might fall in the same category as Hundred Blades. The skills for themselves are not that hard to avoid, but if you spend a good amount of time and CDs to whittle down a warrior, maybe having him even reset 1-2 times with high mobility, keeping distance as good as possible only to die to a single skill because you are misjudging the situation for once or run out of options, that’s just not fair.

Terrahero.9358:

Ezeriel.9574:

A warrior landing 12k eviscerates is full glass.

If i compare my Warrior in full zerker to my Engineer, the latter has either vitality or toughness on every piece of gear. My Warrior, despite having ZERO vitality or toughness still has both more health and more armor.
Not to mention better healing and far better condition removal. Thats not even counting utility skills yet.

So there is no such thing as a glass warrior. Only relative to other Warriors could a Warrior build be considered “glassy”.

But you’ve got other drawbacks.

Consider your telegraphed animations. Consider your significantly lower versatility than your engineer.

Eviscerate is not the problem. The Warrior having everything (high passive defense, cleanse, hard immunities, passive healing, damage output, and mobility) is the problem. Eviscerate just seems bad when you combine it with all of that.

Yea, that skill is pretty stupid. Took a rather long break some months ago, came back recently, had to kinda get back into the game, catch up to changes etc.

So I ran into this warrior while solo roaming in WvW, started like the typical fight against warriors as D/D ele: Dodge a lot, heal a lot, cleanse a lot but eventually you will outlast that guy and if he doesn’t decide to run even kill him. Then all of a sudden this guy jumps on me and pops a good 50% of my HP in a single skill.

So I’m staring at my toon’s dead body with my mouth wide open, kinda irritated about what just happened. Apparently, that Warrior player believed I put up a good fight, group added me and we did some 1v1s. Well, lets boil it down to this: Eviscerate is pretty ridiculous. Won some lost some, but it never really felt fair. As the ele, there really is no room for error whatsoever, you kitten up once you’re pretty much dead, whereas the warrior really only has to hit Eviscerate and that’s about it.
Out of all the duels I think I won as much as one (1) where I ate an Eviscerate to the face, usually not dodging it was an instant death sentence though, while landing even multiple of my heaviest hitters weren’t anywhere near a guaranteed win of that duel.

Dunno, but it just doesn’t feel right when one guy has to be on the absolute top of his game to have a shot a winning vs. someone who needs to land a single skill to win..

makku.2508:

Yea, that skill is pretty stupid. Took a rather long break some months ago, came back recently, had to kinda get back into the game, catch up to changes etc.

So I ran into this warrior while solo roaming in WvW, started like the typical fight against warriors as D/D ele: Dodge a lot, heal a lot, cleanse a lot but eventually you will outlast that guy and if he doesn’t decide to run even kill him. Then all of a sudden this guy jumps on me and pops a good 50% of my HP in a single skill.

So I’m staring at my toon’s dead body with my mouth wide open, kinda irritated about what just happened. Apparently, that Warrior player believed I put up a good fight, group added me and we did some 1v1s. Well, lets boil it down to this: Eviscerate is pretty ridiculous. Won some lost some, but it never really felt fair. As the ele, there really is no room for error whatsoever, you kitten up once you’re pretty much dead, whereas the warrior really only has to hit Eviscerate and that’s about it.
Out of all the duels I think I won as much as one (1) where I ate an Eviscerate to the face, usually not dodging it was an instant death sentence though, while landing even multiple of my heaviest hitters weren’t anywhere near a guaranteed win of that duel.

Dunno, but it just doesn’t feel right when one guy has to be on the absolute top of his game to have a shot a winning vs. someone who needs to land a single skill to win..

So you were saying that without eviscerate that warrior could not win against you. But it was ok for you to win against him.
Right….
And even with eviscerate you win some and lose some…

makku.2508:

Yea, that skill is pretty stupid. Took a rather long break some months ago, came back recently, had to kinda get back into the game, catch up to changes etc.

So I ran into this warrior while solo roaming in WvW, started like the typical fight against warriors as D/D ele: Dodge a lot, heal a lot, cleanse a lot but eventually you will outlast that guy and if he doesn’t decide to run even kill him. Then all of a sudden this guy jumps on me and pops a good 50% of my HP in a single skill.

So I’m staring at my toon’s dead body with my mouth wide open, kinda irritated about what just happened. Apparently, that Warrior player believed I put up a good fight, group added me and we did some 1v1s. Well, lets boil it down to this: Eviscerate is pretty ridiculous. Won some lost some, but it never really felt fair. As the ele, there really is no room for error whatsoever, you kitten up once you’re pretty much dead, whereas the warrior really only has to hit Eviscerate and that’s about it.
Out of all the duels I think I won as much as one (1) where I ate an Eviscerate to the face, usually not dodging it was an instant death sentence though, while landing even multiple of my heaviest hitters weren’t anywhere near a guaranteed win of that duel.

Dunno, but it just doesn’t feel right when one guy has to be on the absolute top of his game to have a shot a winning vs. someone who needs to land a single skill to win..

Axe builds are pretty much all close combat pressure builds. So if you stay close to axe warrior, you’re gonna feel the pressure. Warrior is and always was a kind of class that is good at trading hits, so if you start to trade hits with warrior, you are going to end up dead on the ground.

So if you meet axe warrior, try to stay in mid range of them from where you can easily land skills on him but he can’t land anything on you. Every now and then get close, do some form of CC (make sure he doesn’t have somekind of stun break / immunity ready to break from it) and do quick burst of damage and back off again and keep that pressure on. As long as you can keep up roughly 400dps the warrior won’t be able to regen from the burst.

Oh and watch out for some form of CC from warrior, they rarely do eviscrate without first hitting you with shield bash or axe throw which traited with leg specialist will immobilize you.

so, TL;DR; tips to beat evis warrior:
Don’t trade hits.
Try not to stay too close for the heavy pressure.
Constant damage on him.
Do quick in and out hits after he has used stability/berserker stance/endure pain.
Spike, spike, spike.

silentnight warrior.2714:

So you were saying that without eviscerate that warrior could not win against you. But it was ok for you to win against him.
Right….
And even with eviscerate you win some and lose some…

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

Paavotar.3971:

Axe builds are pretty much all close combat pressure builds. So if you stay close to axe warrior, you’re gonna feel the pressure. Warrior is and always was a kind of class that is good at trading hits, so if you start to trade hits with warrior, you are going to end up dead on the ground.

So if you meet axe warrior, try to stay in mid range of them from where you can easily land skills on him but he can’t land anything on you. Every now and then get close, do some form of CC (make sure he doesn’t have somekind of stun break / immunity ready to break from it) and do quick burst of damage and back off again and keep that pressure on. As long as you can keep up roughly 400dps the warrior won’t be able to regen from the burst.

Oh and watch out for some form of CC from warrior, they rarely do eviscrate without first hitting you with shield bash or axe throw which traited with leg specialist will immobilize you.

so, TL;DR; tips to beat evis warrior:
Don’t trade hits.
Try not to stay too close for the heavy pressure.
Constant damage on him.
Do quick in and out hits after he has used stability/berserker stance/endure pain.
Spike, spike, spike.

Maybe I’m just dumb, but how do you evade melee range combat on a D/D ele while still applying 400+ DPS?

The thing is, I don’t have problem with the constant pressure. What seems kinda odd though is that a build applying constant steady DPS to keep up pressure is also able to spike for 50% of someone’s HP on a single skill, that just sounds like bad design.

Oh great tips, just has a minor weakness: You can´t keep such a warrior away from you. The amount of mobility due to GS, constant swiftness or 25% movement speed and near-total-soft-CC-immunity, combined with an absurd amount of CC output via cripples (especially when using leg specialist), stuns and whatnot is just way too much. As a S/D thief for example you have to stay on shortbow most of the time if not all the time (especially when facing a mace / shield GS warrior), and if you kitten up once, you are pretty much done. The warrior on the other side feels a mere tickle from your attacks. Thats not fair.

Seriously, the effort most classes have to put into beating a warrior of equal skill is a multiple of the effort said warrior has to put into beating said class, and that counts in most builds.

Dont tell me i have to pull out a cheese build in order to beat a warrior. a) that would just prove a warrior´s OPnes, and b) i dont like playing cheese.

A warrior currently may not have depth. But its way too effective currently. Warriors should be brought down to mainstream level, but since i´m not a developer, i have no idea what could be done to achieve this. Tankiness, Damage, Mobility all at once is too much. One has to go. Be tanky but do damage? okay, then your weakness should be mobile enemies which can and will kite you to death. Do damage and be mobile? Fine, but then let go of armor and be squishy. Be tanky and fly anywhere? no problem, but then don´t pose much of a threat.

@makku:
maybe the axe warrior is made to kill such builds as yours? It’s a melee pressure build and will smash up anything that dares to try to trade hits on melee range by constant pressure and the huge spike from Evis. That is the sole purpose of the build. Axe builds usually die to ranged kiters. Against good ranged kiters they usually have couple of tries (during zerker stance and stability) to get close and deliver fatal damage or die.

@Thebandicoot:
near-total-soft-CC immunity is the fault of -/+ 40% condi food, not really a warrior thing. The fact that warrior can trait+gear+food up to near total immunity against their strongest weakness is just understandable goal on most warrior builds when it comes to WvW where mobility is king.

Also the usual skullcracker build (m+sh / gs) is dependant on setup to deliver damage. Mace itself doesn’t do much, it’s nice defensive weapon but doesn’t really bring anyone down itself and GS needs some form of outside source of CC to deliver the damage from 100b. Anything else on GS is meh, that doesn’t do much damage or is too unreliable to deliver damage (rush). Don’t stay close when the warrior has mace+shield and when they are on GS go close and deliver hard hits.

Heh, i find it that Elementalist innate sustain is rather unfair. Free healing for everybody!!!

makku.2508:

silentnight warrior.2714:

So you were saying that without eviscerate that warrior could not win against you. But it was ok for you to win against him.
Right….
And even with eviscerate you win some and lose some…

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

What i didn´t understand here?

The fact that BOTH had ways to deal with each others damage, BOTH win some fights, BOTH had ways / skills to beat the other one.
And from your post its easy o see that your frustation is with eviscerate so i belive you lose some fight because of it.
So what i didn’t understant?

bigmonto.4215:

Zacchary.6183:

There is a difference between “effective” and “forgiving”. “Forgiving” builds are builds that allow you to make mistakes while still being “effective”. Every thief build is more or less “effective” but the class as a whole is unforgiving because:

1.) The thief profession has arguably the worst condition removal, stun breaks and healing (unless you are a kitten with SoM). The profession doesn’t have very much cushioning when they take a hit, unlike warrior that can dance around banners in zerker armor and heal conditions when they slap F1. Onto #2…

2.) Since a thief’s damage mitigation is complete crap, it forces the profession to concentrate more on avoidance. For example blinds, dropping target and visuals via stealth and by timing evasion whereas the warrior can just scream his head off and get back health or wtfbbq their enemy and remove conditions. Thief’s damage avoidance can only last so long and do so much because #3…

3.) Thieves have a resource pool that allows everything aside from the auto attack to be usable. Most of the on-demand damage avoidance is tied to these skills and the rest are on moderate cooldowns. Not only that, the thief can’t just switch to the other weaponset and keep going when their initiative dries out because guess what… those skills use initiative aswell. No initiative = no on-demand avoidance = meat popcicle. Is a warrior screwed when he runs out of adrenaline? No, and even then they can get it back before the burst goes off cooldown.

Do you even play the Thief? Here is the stats on my Thief

3k armor
18k health
1.8k conditional damage

4 sec stealth, 1 condition cleanse going into stealth, 1 more 3 sec later
323 per sec healing in stealth (this is in addition to the healing skill, and shadow refuge)

Can go into stealth every 4 sec, which means I can hide in stealth forever, and can cleanse 2 conditions per stealth.

Can do a burst of 5k bleed from range every 4 sec in additon to 1 to 2k torment (spammable) and 1.3k confusion.

Yeah you can say conditional bunker is OPed. This build can cleanse condition better than LB warrior. It gets almost as much armor, and can disengage at will. I cannot die 1v1, even in 1v5 I can always get away. You think this build is not “Forgiving”? You think warrior is more “Forgiving” than this build?

Easy + OP build is everywhere.

But seriously this is about Eviscerate and the OP is playing a mesmer. Why are you thief main come here to complain? Last I check there are just as many if not more threads about thief being OPed. And guess what you guys get to choose the fight, and there is ZERO risk for you to engage, after all you can always disengage. This is what I call truly “forgiving”.

Maybe coni-troll thief is more forgiving, but lets not forget effectiveness. Condition thief can’t hold a point in pvp, and is literally only useful in WvW roaming, which isn’t really a legitimate game mode (just a relatively trivial subset of one), more like something to do for fun and to alleviate boredom. Wouldn’t be kind of absurd if balance was based on roaming potential?

@Paavotar: Not really a warrior thing? Sure. Lets forget about Dogged March and that trait which cleanses movement impairment when using a mobility skill. And even if – it just doesnt matter, its too much in combination with all the other stuff availiable. Yes, in WvW mobility is king, but warriors are too strong for their mobility or too mobile for their strentgh, period. Either has to be toned down.

Mace does a lot. It may be slow, but it hits hard. Also one cannot simply “stay away” when needed. Talking 5sec weapon switch here. And sooner or later skullcrack will land when you don´t have dodges, stunbreaks or stunports ready, at which point the fight is over because 100b will rip you apart. Also regarding Skullcrack is the same issue which makes Eviscerate so hard to avoid at times – Shield Bash goes way too smoothly over to Skullcrack. A single dodge will not get you far enough away, and by the time you can dodge again the Skullcrack has already hit.

GS Autoattack hits like a truck for its swinging speed. Sure, not as much as thief sword for example, but it doesnt get left behind that far. 100b may be stationary, but as already been told, there are more than enough ways to make it hit. the whirling skill #3 is on a fairly low CD, hits hard and is an evade. #4 cripples and has a returning trajectory. May not hit as reliable, but it hits hard when it does and can hit twice. #5 may be unreliable because of Bug Wars 2, but it also hits like a truck. Saying that GS is meh outside of two skills isnt correct.

silentnight warrior.2714:

makku.2508:

silentnight warrior.2714:

So you were saying that without eviscerate that warrior could not win against you. But it was ok for you to win against him.
Right….
And even with eviscerate you win some and lose some…

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

What i didn´t understand here?

The fact that BOTH had ways to deal with each others damage, BOTH win some fights, BOTH had ways / skills to beat the other one.
And from your post its easy o see that your frustation is with eviscerate so i belive you lose some fight because of it.
So what i didn’t understant?

The fact that the ele, and any other class, has to severely outplay a warrior while landing multiple of their hardest hitting skills, while warrior only has to hit 1-2 successful combos to win?

I think that’s what you didn’t “understant”

You should look up what risk / reward means.

Edit: And by the way, to whoever is saying to “kite” them, how do you do that? Whenever I go against an axe warrior on my ele he’s always right next to me mashing 1 mindlessly. I try to chill, cripple and even immob with earth 3 but those expire so quick it’s almost laughable. The cone skills have a hard time landing because the pro warrior is always right next to me at all times spamming 1.

TheBandicoot.5294:

@Paavotar: Not really a warrior thing? Sure. Lets forget about Dogged March and that trait which cleanses movement impairment when using a mobility skill. And even if – it just doesnt matter, its too much in combination with all the other stuff availiable. Yes, in WvW mobility is king, but warriors are too strong for their mobility or too mobile for their strentgh, period. Either has to be toned down.

Mace does a lot. It may be slow, but it hits hard. Also one cannot simply “stay away” when needed. Talking 5sec weapon switch here. And sooner or later skullcrack will land when you don´t have dodges, stunbreaks or stunports ready, at which point the fight is over because 100b will rip you apart. Also regarding Skullcrack is the same issue which makes Eviscerate so hard to avoid at times – Shield Bash goes way too smoothly over to Skullcrack. A single dodge will not get you far enough away, and by the time you can dodge again the Skullcrack has already hit.

GS Autoattack hits like a truck for its swinging speed. Sure, not as much as thief sword for example, but it doesnt get left behind that far. 100b may be stationary, but as already been told, there are more than enough ways to make it hit. the whirling skill #3 is on a fairly low CD, hits hard and is an evade. #4 cripples and has a returning trajectory. May not hit as reliable, but it hits hard when it does and can hit twice. #5 may be unreliable because of Bug Wars 2, but it also hits like a truck. Saying that GS is meh outside of two skills isnt correct.

the trait u were talking about does only remove immobilize
cripple and chill stays on the war
yeah Dogged March reduces their duration…
buff food reduceses their duration yeah..
but as long as some sort of soft cc is on that war he wont surprise you
he cnat teleport so his movement skills jump /rush/leap not even close to the usual distance

u got problem as a thief beating a mace shield greatsword war?

ever heard of ranged weapons?

soft cc and then mid or high range are warriors greatest weaknesses
i hate people who say wars got soo much condi removal
in wvw it might be the case if they trait or it and use a buff food against condi duration (does only work if your enemy doesnt take +40%duration which does make sense even on builds that dont play on condi dmg)

so youve got a problem with engaging such a war..

you can disengage any time
you dont even have to engage at all

thieves should not stay too long next to an enemy war
sword 2 3 and port back (sword 2 u know)

shortbow…
poison is actually reeeeaally strong against that healing signet

and wars do have so much condi cleans….IF they land their f1
what they wont if you dont stand next to them
or blind them…
or interrupt them
or stealth yourself
or make yourself invulnerable ( not a thieves option)
or just run away wars are not that mobile as everyone says out of fight without any hard cc soft cc or anything.. they are fast yeah
but if any of these applie he wont move nearly as fast a thief

since this is an eviscerate thred ima say something about axe as well..
it is a leap yes
but u can just outplay him like a mace war
he wont leap huge distances with soft cc
if immobilized he wont leap at all (if not traited)

and basically every war
(that does not have berserker stance in his buffs active always keep an eye out for it)
is reeeaally weak to conditions since the usual warriors only way to remove conditions is to land f1
and if this misses
the conditions will start damaging slowing..everything the war
sure the f1 longbow hits in midrange especially in pvp pretty certainly
but axe mace and greatsword ..what most people here seem to struggle with dont land that good

overall just think twice be4 engaging a war
do u really need to kill him?
is it worth the effort? the risk?
its how wars are intended to be

and whoever said wars got dmg tankyness condition and cc in some top ratings
i want to see the build

also thieves no condi?
ever faced thief with his two elite comrades and then venom share?
ever seen a war doing 25stacks bleed burning cripple immob then eviscerate
and running away with sword warhorn and greatsword?
NO!
war got a lot of powerfull weapons but u cant wear them all at once (unless u hack)
so there is always a weakness to him

You cannot put possibilities of disengagement into the equation, Soinetwa. Because i KNOW as a thief i can flee as well. But thats not the point. The point is killing the opponent. Cowardice is already way too widespread in the shapes of running away or beating x target(s) with y people where y is bigger than x. I´d rather swap some of my escape capabilites and almost entire stealth for a warriors sustain. And lets not forget they can run faster than anybody else. Ever tried to catch up with a warrior? ever tried to engage and beat said warrior after exhausting all CD´s / initative just for catching up?

I know about ranged weapons, which is what i wrote about two posts ago. But you seem to think that the warrior will actually care for soft-cc. Soft-cc has almost no duration on a warrior. A 2 1/2 sec immobilize (SB #1 stealth version) gets down to 1 sec. The cripples from disabling shot last about 1/2 sec. Thats too low duration for too high cost, and since arrows have travel time, said warrior is not likely to be stopped mid air. You cannot stop a warrior from walking straight up into your face, its impossible!
Sooner or later eviscerate will land, and then its mostly over. You only have so many dodges, you only have so many teleports and stunbreakers. A warrior can easily outlast you in a 1v1, and thats what matters. Even groupfights consist of small 1v1s, and you literally have to 2-man a single warrior. That ain´t balanced, and if thats “how wars are intended to be”, well then thats crap balance.

Something must be toned down, be it the mobility, direct damage or tankyness.

Nobody said that warriors have a superior AiO build which does direct and condi damage at once. But celestial hybrid builds come close, and both direct and condi variants on warrior are much too forgiving.

Regarding poison – you cannot keep it up and on thief the shortbow does not have the damage to pressure a warrior long enough. If the arrows would at least fly faster so they cannot be avoided by sidestepping at midrange…

Anyways. Currently eviscerate is too strong. It hits too reliable because of all the posibilities a warrior has to make it land. Removing the 5s weapon swap would be an idea. Or doubling the CD on eviscerate. Or, my favorite idea, make it only do its horrible damage below 25% health, same as heartseeker. But the way it currently works is too rewarding for little to no effort. Heck, the whole warrior CLASS works this way. Bring it down to mainstrem level or buff all others who need it, but do anything.

Zacchary.6183:

I’m just trying to clear up a bit of misconception both with me and my favorite profession.

For example, if you are constantly in stealth to cleanse conditions then you aren’t doing much damage. The people who should really care about it are those who have no experience with stealth at all.

Another thing, I have a d/d hybrid build that would melt your build due to the fact that it’s AoE bleeding and cripples will render most condition cleanse and mobility useless. So not only will it be very hard to run away but you will be bleeding heavily in the process.

But let me ask you this… can you do all that without stealth? I am pretty sure a warrior of the same skill can.

Really… I would like to see your build then. And do you speak that base on experience or theory crafting? P/D conditional bunker is generally consider the top roaming + dueling build some even consider it more OP than that of PU Mesmer. I am not saying its unbeatable, but it is definitely durable, easy to play, and can take on almost all builds with little risk. Its better than almost every warrior builds.

Also being in stealth to cleanse condition is an option. Sometimes you are not facing a condition build hence you don’t need it. Plus once you are in stealth your chances of get more condition bomb is lower. Unlike warrior, right after CI, it can be condition bombed again. As a condition build I have no issue with warrior’s CI at all. I have more issue with thief go into stealth. In addition, after 2 condition cleanse on the 4th sec of Stealth you can also only for a big attack, in the case of p/d its ranged with little risk.

I play a condition warrior with cripple + bleed as well, and no I cannot kill a p/d thief. And this is based on experience. If I go full condition dire, I will die eventually to such thief, if I go shout heal I won’t die, but I can’t kill such thief either, even if they are low, just stealth hide, and reset.

In fact fight with a thief of any kind, thief always control the fight, because they get to choose when to engage + disengage. Cripple does nothing, as a thief always have ways to teleport out. The only way to kill is maybe Evis, but only for thief that’s way too aggressive in attacking. In my experience as a thief or fighting one, it is by far the most “forgiving” profession of all. And if you don’t think that way, perhaps you should play a little more, and theorycraft a little less.

bigmonto.4215:

Zacchary.6183:

I’m just trying to clear up a bit of misconception both with me and my favorite profession.

For example, if you are constantly in stealth to cleanse conditions then you aren’t doing much damage. The people who should really care about it are those who have no experience with stealth at all.

Another thing, I have a d/d hybrid build that would melt your build due to the fact that it’s AoE bleeding and cripples will render most condition cleanse and mobility useless. So not only will it be very hard to run away but you will be bleeding heavily in the process.

But let me ask you this… can you do all that without stealth? I am pretty sure a warrior of the same skill can.

Really… I would like to see your build then. And do you speak that base on experience or theory crafting? P/D conditional bunker is generally consider the top roaming + dueling build some even consider it more OP than that of PU Mesmer. I am not saying its unbeatable, but it is definitely durable, easy to play, and can take on almost all builds with little risk. Its better than almost every warrior builds.

Also being in stealth to cleanse condition is an option. Sometimes you are not facing a condition build hence you don’t need it. Plus once you are in stealth your chances of get more condition bomb is lower. Unlike warrior, right after CI, it can be condition bombed again. As a condition build I have no issue with warrior’s CI at all. I have more issue with thief go into stealth. In addition, after 2 condition cleanse on the 4th sec of Stealth you can also only for a big attack, in the case of p/d its ranged with little risk.

I play a condition warrior with cripple + bleed as well, and no I cannot kill a p/d thief. And this is based on experience. If I go full condition dire, I will die eventually to such thief, if I go shout heal I won’t die, but I can’t kill such thief either, even if they are low, just stealth hide, and reset.

In fact fight with a thief of any kind, thief always control the fight, because they get to choose when to engage + disengage. Cripple does nothing, as a thief always have ways to teleport out. The only way to kill is maybe Evis, but only for thief that’s way too aggressive in attacking. In my experience as a thief or fighting one, it is by far the most “forgiving” profession of all. And if you don’t think that way, perhaps you should play a little more, and theorycraft a little less.

Why do you even bring PD condi spec up?its a bad choice in almost every game mode and game is not balance around duels or 1v1 so you post is pointless. Nice try in trying to divert attention away from warriors though.

Warriors have too much, plain and simple. All class/builds should have drawbacks, when i make a bunker ranger, i forfeit any means to do damage and contribute to teamfight just to have good sustain/tankiness and while still lacking stunbreaks and more. When i make any engineer builds, i will always lack stability/condi clear/stun breaks making me weak to any condition/CC builds. Thieves all lack stun breaks/stability and are quite squishy tho i will argue that S/D thief is a bit too strong but mostly due to fire/air sigil.

Take your average celestial axe/bow warrior as an example, this build has extremely high damage from condition and direct damage, at least 2 stunbreaks and one stability that last 10 seconds (one of the longest stability in the game only surpassed by other classes elites skills), not only that you have 10 seconds of condition immunities and a 5 second condi clear thru CI and longbow. It also has crazy high survivability from base stats, healing signet alone not to mention endure pain. The only thing this build lacks is mobility but that isn’t an issue in conquest mode.

Every single class/build that isn’t a d/d ele dreams of having any of the strengths that warrior have.