Guild Wars 2

Maskaganda.2043:

glaphen.5230:

coglin.1867:

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Every other post you make is followed up by an “Ah did not know that” or someone explaining you were mistaken. Why do you keep posting about things you are unknowledgable about? As well, how do you know its value for most professions, after you previously admitted you do not even have experience with Most professions??

In my experience, it is a very very common sigil In WvW condi builds. it is also very much a reason to raise precisions, because it only has a 30% chance to proc on crit. It last 7s and is AoE. Would you like me to explain how much damage that is? Or how torment works sir?

glaphen.5230:

Nope, I think vitality is the worst stat for most classes, doesn’t really make precision useful for most condition builds either way.

Odd, as vitality is known as the best stat to counter conditions. As they ignore toughness, vitality adds the ability to absorbe the damage. As well its absorption allows for greater use and value of condition removal.

And as a very wise man already posted

Maskaganda.2043:

coglin won this thread.

Amazing how you get when I didn’t know one thing about a new sigil that still isn’t good enough to sacrifice using precision for on most builds and after the next patch all sigils will work like it anyways. The guy supporting you plays a condition build as well, how surprising! Also vitality offers no sustain so its a soft counter to everything for the first few seconds of a fight.

see, you just shot yourself in the face there. In every single engineer vid I ever posted, I have more power than condition damage, even with 25 stacks of corruption. I use mainly carrion, I play whats essencially an hybrid build, however bad some stuff might scale. I’ve tried full dire and full rabid and it was nowhere near as effective for me.

but you just took one look at it and said “conditions, pff” , like every other raging guy that joins my party whining that’s so cheesy I use dire and perplexity, neither of which it’s true.

apart from that I have 7 other classes all but one at level 80 and I roam either solo or in a small group with all of them. only on my necro do I play conditions and even so, rarely, because zerker necro is way more effective in a 5 man roaming team.

if you know what you are doing, conditions are easy to manage and avoid.

Ah the life of a tool kit p/p hgh engi. Omg dire is op…. Killed them with a 2.8k prybar with carrion gear.

Won’t the condition meta in sPvP be a lot stronger after the 15.4.14?

Looking at the changes so far announced, the condition meta seems to be getting a overall buff…

Condition removal is actually being nerfed for several classes too…

Meglobob.8620:

Won’t the condition meta in sPvP be a lot stronger after the 15.4.14?

Looking at the changes so far announced, the condition meta seems to be getting a overall buff…

Condition removal is actually being nerfed for several classes too…

Last I checked the top teams run 1-2 condition classes at the most. Only removal I am aware of being nerfed is lyssa runes.

If any of you who says Pvt can win a dire user is in the Fsp match up i’d like to duel with you with my Dire thief, and see how well you can deeps me.

Sons.5493:

If any of you who says Pvt can win a dire user is in the Fsp match up i’d like to duel with you with my Dire thief, and see how well you can deeps me.

See, that argument fell apart the moment you mentioned “Thief” and “duel”.

I could prove that keyboards are overpowered, with that comparison…

Carighan.6758:

Sons.5493:

If any of you who says Pvt can win a dire user is in the Fsp match up i’d like to duel with you with my Dire thief, and see how well you can deeps me.

See, that argument fell apart the moment you mentioned “Thief” and “duel”.

I could prove that keyboards are overpowered, with that comparison…

You know why dire gear will always out damage soldiers? Because you can stack more than one damaging condition at once with no problem… You can’t do more than one damaging attack at once…There is the difference.

jportell.2197:

You know why dire gear will always out damage soldiers? Because you can stack more than one damaging condition at once with no problem… You can’t do more than one damaging attack at once…There is the difference.

While you got a point – to a degree – you are using a strawman.
For a direct damage attack, the damage is applied via an attack, and happens immediately.
For a condition attack, the condition is applied via an attack, and happens over X seconds afterwards.

In both cases, avoiding the attack avoids the damage entirely, and in most cases, condition attacks cause a single damaging condition. Direct damage attacks usually cause a single direct damage spike, though many have a damaging condition on top of that.

So what the argument comes down to is – kitten often – the raw amount of conditions applied. Especially in regards to single attacks applying 2-3 damaging conditions at a time. The same argument holds true against direct damage attacks also applying X stacks of bleeding or so, btw, and then proccing a sigil poison on top of that → also should not happen.

My personal favourite is this:

• Make conditions much stronger.
• Make boons much stronger.
• Make both much less common.
• Makes cleansing personal-only and very very rare.

If I end up poisoned, I should suffer quite a bit. Light~medium damage, but -75% to healing received or so.
Bleeding should tick my health away at a rapid pace. Moving while tormented or attacking while confused? Not a good idea!

On the other hand, if I do use my kitten CD self-cleanse to get rid of the 2 stacks of Confusion on me, then I should have some assurance that for 30-45 seconds afterwards I won’t see that Mesmer re-apply any.

So basically, make both conditions and boons meaningful.

Carighan.6758:

jportell.2197:

You know why dire gear will always out damage soldiers? Because you can stack more than one damaging condition at once with no problem… You can’t do more than one damaging attack at once…There is the difference.

While you got a point – to a degree – you are using a strawman.
For a direct damage attack, the damage is applied via an attack, and happens immediately.
For a condition attack, the condition is applied via an attack, and happens over X seconds afterwards.

In both cases, avoiding the attack avoids the damage entirely, and in most cases, condition attacks cause a single damaging condition. Direct damage attacks usually cause a single direct damage spike, though many have a damaging condition on top of that.

So what the argument comes down to is – kitten often – the raw amount of conditions applied. Especially in regards to single attacks applying 2-3 damaging conditions at a time. The same argument holds true against direct damage attacks also applying X stacks of bleeding or so, btw, and then proccing a sigil poison on top of that -> also should not happen.

My personal favourite is this:

• Make conditions much stronger.
• Make boons much stronger.
• Make both much less common.
• Makes cleansing personal-only and very very rare.

If I end up poisoned, I should suffer quite a bit. Light~medium damage, but -75% to healing received or so.
Bleeding should tick my health away at a rapid pace. Moving while tormented or attacking while confused? Not a good idea!

On the other hand, if I do use my kitten CD self-cleanse to get rid of the 2 stacks of Confusion on me, then I should have some assurance that for 30-45 seconds afterwards I won’t see that Mesmer re-apply any.

So basically, make both conditions and boons meaningful.

Yes dodging avoids both attacks but at somepoint in a fight no matter what someone is going to get a hit in. Esp if it’s dire v. soldier… That won’t be a one hit wonder. … And dire will win because several attacks that apply conditions apply more than one…. Attacks that do direct damage do just that and they don’t even crit.

Carighan.6758:

jportell.2197:

snip

*snip

My personal favourite is this:

• Make conditions much stronger.
• Make boons much stronger.
• Make both much less common.
• Makes cleansing personal-only and very very rare.

snip

kitten , Carighan, and here I was about to make a new thread called Conditions, Immunities, Crit-procs raising just that issue. I’d like to say that you stole my idea but since you got it down first, I can only say nice work.

On topic:

There is merit here in Carighan’s points about making individual conditions and boons a lot stronger whilst limiting the output of them – to every class. Right now it is possible for many builds to easily output extreme amounts of boons or conditions (sometimes, unfortunately, both) leading to combat that is quite “spammy” for lack of a better word.

The combination of individually low impact but extremely diverse outputs of Boons and conditions has led to gameplay that is significantly less thoughtful than the original designers of GW2 may have intended (though I make no claims as to what the intents of those designers were). That some builds can have access to nearly every condition in the game or to nearly every boon in the game is a little out of control at this point. Crit-procs and traits and attacks that passively apply conditions even on autoattacks has led to a battle of cooldown vs cooldown – and in many cases, the condition build that spams the most conditions to overwhelm cleansing, will win. This is a zero sum arms race that will not end until a strong re-evaluation of conditions in general occurs; and indeed, has led to Arenanet implementing condition immunities as a stop-gap hard counter – each of which has led to a negative balance outcome.

The solution is to do as Carighan has mentioned: Make individual conditions a lot less accessible whilst raising their individual power. Poison should be about as good as interrupting a heal, for example, but extremely short duration – 2-3 seconds at most. Burning should be as threatening as burning was in GW1 where that -7 health degeneration was something you had to cleanse soon or die – yet last only a few seconds. Similarly, Bleed stacks up to 6 should be life ending without cleanses. Torment should actually discourage moving; and so on.

The diversity and ease at which one can apply multiple conditions just through autoattacks needs to disappear. Every single attack that can apply a condition should require a cooldown. In addition, the skill that applies a condition should never have base duration that exceeds the cooldown of the skill. Shrapnel Grenade comes to mind. Dotting someone up should require as much investment in timing dodges and cleanses and utilising CC as direct damage does.

Finally, there needs to be a system where players can see their future health. Although the condition damage floaters implemented recently did a lot to improve player awareness of just how damaging DoTs applied could potentially be; there does need to be increased transparency communicated through the UI of just how much damage the player could potentially take without cleansing. An implementation of the white health bar of Killer Instinct that shows potential max damage after combo Enders has merit here. Whiting out the part of the player’s health globe that could eventually be wiped out over time with conditions left uncleansed would already do a lot to teach players and also open up the opportunity for easier player calculation of when to escape.

jportell.2197:

Yes dodging avoids both attacks but at somepoint in a fight no matter what someone is going to get a hit in. Esp if it’s dire v. soldier… That won’t be a one hit wonder. … And dire will win because several attacks that apply conditions apply more than one…. Attacks that do direct damage do just that and they don’t even crit.

The skills that apply more than one condition are on similar cooldowns as direct damage skills that apply much higher amounts damage. Condition builds don’t magically have more frequent, high-damage attacks than power builds.

Facing a Dire user is no different than facing a Soldier’s geared person. You just don’t see your health drop immedietly when you get hit. This last part, by the way, is the real reason people think condition damage is OP: they don’t realize how much they actually got hit for.

I find it very strange that none of the top PvP players are claiming condition damage is overpowered. Perhaps there’s a reason for that…

@MonMalthias: I don’t follow. Why should every attack that deals conditions have a cooldown, but not every attack that deals direct damage?

oZii.2864:

Meglobob.8620:

Won’t the condition meta in sPvP be a lot stronger after the 15.4.14?

Looking at the changes so far announced, the condition meta seems to be getting a overall buff…

Condition removal is actually being nerfed for several classes too…

Last I checked the top teams run 1-2 condition classes at the most. Only removal I am aware of being nerfed is lyssa runes.

Some traits that counter conditions are being nerfed by as much as 50% and healing is being nerfed on some classes. Perplexity runes are being introduced. There is even a new trait that counters all crit dam %. Lets not forget direct damage from crits over all classes across the entire game is being nerfed 10%+…

Certainly, looks like a big boost to the current condition meta to me…

Remember armour does not affect conditions, vitality, healing, condition removal are your only defences…

Meglobob.8620:

oZii.2864:

Meglobob.8620:

Won’t the condition meta in sPvP be a lot stronger after the 15.4.14?

Looking at the changes so far announced, the condition meta seems to be getting a overall buff…

Condition removal is actually being nerfed for several classes too…

Last I checked the top teams run 1-2 condition classes at the most. Only removal I am aware of being nerfed is lyssa runes.

Some traits that counter conditions are being nerfed by as much as 50% and healing is being nerfed on some classes. Perplexity runes are being introduced. There is even a new trait that counters all crit dam %. Lets not forget direct damage from crits over all classes across the entire game is being nerfed 10%+…

Certainly, looks like a big boost to the current condition meta to me…

PvP, crit damage isn’t being touched except on Celestial amulet. Healing Signet is the only “healing” I’m aware of that’s being nerfed (and 8% won’t really be noticable), the crit immune trait is on the squishiest class in the game and locks them into a pathetic damage output attunement if they want the benefit. Oh, and what condition-protection traits are getting nerfed? I have seen nothing suggesting that, unless you mean the Mesmer and Guardian “Vigor on-crit” traits.

I don’t see any change that would deal with a non-existent meta. The so-called “condition meta” never existed in tPvP.

Sons.5493:

In my opinion there are two big problems with the Condition meta and those are:

Rate which they can be applied

And the rate in which they can be cleansed before they can be re-applied.

It takes 1 stat to max out damage and the other 2 can be ba directed towards tankiness while direct damage users need, power, precision AND critical damage to proc our best output in sacriface of all survival whatsoever.

>BUT GET CONDITION REMOVAL ZOMG

As a thief player there’s not enough cond removal in any kind of build which can remove all the condition that condition build can apply (and re-apply cus why not) other than heavily investing in a trait line that i may or may not feel like traiting in just to counter game imbalances. That’s the reality of gw2.

Anyone who denies how conditions are completly broken in this game on all classes going from Thief, mesmer, engie (broken as kitten k bye) Necro and warrior (also gg broken), is purely lying to himself or is a condition user himself.

Oh and Crt dmg in a desperate try to fix the Pve meta which won’t change a bit. Thus making WvW condition roamers gods.

My jimmies are so rustled.

I’m a thief and I have no problems fighting condition specs.

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I see you are on a NA server, I am on a EU server and in Europe the condition meta is massive…except for thieves, mesmers the other classes all use massive condition application:-

Engineers condition users
Rangers condition users
Necro condition users

Warriors/Eles/Guardians are 50/50 ish split between condition/direct damage…

So the current meta in Europe is conditions…

Meglobob.8620:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I see you are on a NA server, I am on a EU server and in Europe the condition meta is massive…except for thieves, mesmers the other classes all use massive condition application:-

Engineers condition users
Rangers condition users
Necro condition users

Warriors/Eles/Guardians are 50/50 ish split between condition/direct damage…

So the current meta in Europe is conditions…

That would explain it, yes. That said, I have to wonder about the Guardians being a 50/50 split between condition damage and direct. Condition Damage guardian just isn’t viable. They can’t help but apply burning, but I don’t see how it could be popular in EU.

Meglobob.8620:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I see you are on a NA server, I am on a EU server and in Europe the condition meta is massive…except for thieves, mesmers the other classes all use massive condition application:-

Engineers condition users
Rangers condition users
Necro condition users

Warriors/Eles/Guardians are 50/50 ish split between condition/direct damage…

So the current meta in Europe is conditions…

That is interesting, I haven’t seen a condition ranger in FOREVER. It has been months I am pretty sure since I roamed into one. They all got mad and quit because of how unresponsive pet skills were.

To be fair, the removal of durpfire next patch will make a big difference. I think you will see far less necros in general around, and the scepter 1 spam will not be nearly as powerful as a result.

Unfortunately that will not change the base problem of conditions and AOE skills. The safe bet for balance in any game is to make AOE skills only good in situations where they can hit multiple targets. AOE skills should frankly be BAD against single targets. However Anet built the game, and classes, and weapons around the idea of having LOTS of aoe skills, and in some cases no single target skills at all (think necro staff).

Aoe condition application has always been the problem. A crit damage nerf is going to make things worse, as the best counter was a strong burst thief or mesmer against a condition user. But I believe they still have more in mind for nerfing conditions, but haven’t figured out what they want to do yet.

On a personal note, I hate signet of spite, and I think corrupt boon doesn’t have enough general value outside of Spvp (too many low boon characters out there).

Those skills are not the problem, they have long cooldowns and are blindable/avoidable, but they are SINGLE target, which is what is right with the condition system. The problem is the 15 second cooldown epidemic that gets cast right after the SOS.

But please don’t hurt epidemic, I would be so sad.

This entire thread is a bit of a mess to be honest. People from both sides accusing each other, asking for sources when neither side delivers, and when a source is shown the opposing member just vehemently disagrees with any points raised.

I play an engineer main, and I’ve always been on a mixed stance with conditions being either too good or not.

First off, anyone who states there is no difference between dire over rabid is wrong. Go test it yourself, there’s your source, you don’t need a video you’re just lazy. I recall seeing someone also say that no one uses the “chance on crit” proc traits. 99% of engineers use incendiary powder as without it our damage is incredibly poor. I can’t speak for necros because I don’t play one.

Now, onto application and their effects.

Someone previously said that condis have advantage due to armour. Yes, conditions do set damage. This is both a blessing and a curse.

Lets do an example. A condi ticks for 500 damage on an elementalist, and it ticks for 500 on a warrior. Armour doesn’t matter, so it’s an advantage against warriors, but a disadvantage against light armour users.

A crit backstab might do 4k to a relatively tanky warrior, but will do more around the sum of 6k on an elementalist. This is where the difference lies.

Also, regarding spam of condis – I would like to point out, at least from an engineer point of view, we cannot spam condis anywhere near as much as has been constantly stated in this thread. We have a single skill that applies chill, and it’s with grenades which are the easiest skills to dodge in the entire game unless the engineer is right on top of you. I will however say that necros can apply ridiculous amounts of chill if specced for it, but then their build is weakened overall.

I would also like to point out that people will incredibly rarely reach 25 stacks of bleeding on you, and if they do it will last for a few seconds before dropping down, and you should be cleansing at that point anyway.

Now I do definitely agree that conditions can be applied too easily. I 100% agree with this. No manner of condition cleansing can keep you clean from them all the time, especially against necromancers. If there is any issue regarding conditions it’s not the damage, but the application rates and I would be fine with a reduction in them, but it would need to be done very carefully.

I know it sounds like I’m trying to protect my own class here, but if engineers had a nerf to grenade condition application then they would become useless. I already mentioned how easily avoided they are. Necromancer marks are a bigger problem however, the tell is less obvious and you have a very small window to avoid it and as they can be spammed within a space of 3 seconds it can quickly become overwhelming.

Regardless, you need to build for condition protection just as much as you do for burst protection, and a good burst build can kill you before you can do anything if they know what they’re doing. Condition builds can never burst you down before you can react as it’s simply impossible. A burn might do 5k damage over 10 seconds, but a thief can do 5k damage in half a second with a backstab.

I have had fights where I’ve beaten people 2v1, and I’ve lost fights 1v1. Player skill as usual always plays a part in the game. I will also say some condition builds are far too strong, such as the infamous PU mesmer and should be looked into ASAP.

Some classes are better at dealing with condis than others, and you have to accept that, just like some classes deal with burst better than others. Hell engie is awful with condis unless you go full elixir build, then your damage is significantly lowered.

On the flipside, If I fight an ele specced for condition control the fight is usually a neverending stalemate since neither of us do enough damage to each other.

Maskaganda.2043:

glaphen.5230:

coglin.1867:

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Every other post you make is followed up by an “Ah did not know that” or someone explaining you were mistaken. Why do you keep posting about things you are unknowledgable about? As well, how do you know its value for most professions, after you previously admitted you do not even have experience with Most professions??

In my experience, it is a very very common sigil In WvW condi builds. it is also very much a reason to raise precisions, because it only has a 30% chance to proc on crit. It last 7s and is AoE. Would you like me to explain how much damage that is? Or how torment works sir?

glaphen.5230:

Nope, I think vitality is the worst stat for most classes, doesn’t really make precision useful for most condition builds either way.

Odd, as vitality is known as the best stat to counter conditions. As they ignore toughness, vitality adds the ability to absorbe the damage. As well its absorption allows for greater use and value of condition removal.

And as a very wise man already posted

Maskaganda.2043:

coglin won this thread.

Amazing how you get when I didn’t know one thing about a new sigil that still isn’t good enough to sacrifice using precision for on most builds and after the next patch all sigils will work like it anyways. The guy supporting you plays a condition build as well, how surprising! Also vitality offers no sustain so its a soft counter to everything for the first few seconds of a fight.

see, you just shot yourself in the face there. In every single engineer vid I ever posted, I have more power than condition damage, even with 25 stacks of corruption. I use mainly carrion, I play whats essencially an hybrid build, however bad some stuff might scale. I’ve tried full dire and full rabid and it was nowhere near as effective for me.

but you just took one look at it and said “conditions, pff” , like every other raging guy that joins my party whining that’s so cheesy I use dire and perplexity, neither of which it’s true.

apart from that I have 7 other classes all but one at level 80 and I roam either solo or in a small group with all of them. only on my necro do I play conditions and even so, rarely, because zerker necro is way more effective in a 5 man roaming team.

if you know what you are doing, conditions are easy to manage and avoid.

You are an Engineer…. Are you seriously implying you have easy to avoid conditions? You have 3 different weapon sets with a condition on each skill besides the auto attack and a huge amount of burning with a single trait, but yeah I’m sure that the 200-400 damage attacks were doing anything and not the 830 burning ticks.

In WvW you can get a full dire engineer with 3.2k condition damage and 50% condi duration (from food alone), burn will tick for 1.2k/s, poison for 400/s.

I roamed with it and mostly things die when you drop the supply crate, play very passively and defensively and nothing kills you. You can build completely around that you have a low crit chance. And you are tanky as kitten.

I play a full rabid engi aswel with PU and interrupts, don’t think you can lose a 1vs1 with that. Got to admit it ain’t that easy to play but those condi bursts are insane.

Here my friend playing with his condi thief, just look at how fast those health bars melt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htRTuNyTIfo

Conditions do way to many things, debuffing every single stat/thing possible and dealing way to much damage/s. It’s to easy to kite with them and just to easy to apply. I mean stacking 10stacks of bleed (ain’t hard) + poison + burn + torment = 3.8k dmg/s. And then I am not even counting confussion in. Apply and play defensively, while the power build has to go defensively aswel to remove them, dealing no damage in the process. Not to mention that most condition dealing skills deal regular damage aswel, not much but it counts up.

I roam 70%-80% of my time in WvW and play 15 hours/day, and I am forced to spec really heavy into condition removal just do stand a chance against condition classes. This cuts my damage by a lot. Mostly I still win because they play bad, but sometimes you meet that skilled necro and you just don’t stand a single chance, doesn’t matter how well you play.

The only thing I have seen in this thread is people trying to compare rabid with dire and PVT? I mean seriously? That ain’t even the problem, didn’t anyone read my post? Yes rabid is most likely superior to dire, but some builds get way to many benefits from dire. And PVT ain’t even close in comparrison to these 2. Full PVT with melandru will hit around 800 and 1.2k with his strongest attacks against a full dire. And that full dire guy will melt him, just use the +40% condi duration food and some in your traits and GG.

Now focus again on the problems, how to counter low telegraphed condition spam skills, working from range, the cheer amount of conditions out there, immob chaining, the fact conditions 100% debuff power builds into oblivion. How to fix them in large fights and how to fix them in small fights.

Conditions are broken, no way to deny it.

glaphen.5230:

Maskaganda.2043:

glaphen.5230:

coglin.1867:

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Every other post you make is followed up by an “Ah did not know that” or someone explaining you were mistaken. Why do you keep posting about things you are unknowledgable about? As well, how do you know its value for most professions, after you previously admitted you do not even have experience with Most professions??

In my experience, it is a very very common sigil In WvW condi builds. it is also very much a reason to raise precisions, because it only has a 30% chance to proc on crit. It last 7s and is AoE. Would you like me to explain how much damage that is? Or how torment works sir?

glaphen.5230:

Nope, I think vitality is the worst stat for most classes, doesn’t really make precision useful for most condition builds either way.

Odd, as vitality is known as the best stat to counter conditions. As they ignore toughness, vitality adds the ability to absorbe the damage. As well its absorption allows for greater use and value of condition removal.

And as a very wise man already posted

Maskaganda.2043:

coglin won this thread.

Amazing how you get when I didn’t know one thing about a new sigil that still isn’t good enough to sacrifice using precision for on most builds and after the next patch all sigils will work like it anyways. The guy supporting you plays a condition build as well, how surprising! Also vitality offers no sustain so its a soft counter to everything for the first few seconds of a fight.

see, you just shot yourself in the face there. In every single engineer vid I ever posted, I have more power than condition damage, even with 25 stacks of corruption. I use mainly carrion, I play whats essencially an hybrid build, however bad some stuff might scale. I’ve tried full dire and full rabid and it was nowhere near as effective for me.

but you just took one look at it and said “conditions, pff” , like every other raging guy that joins my party whining that’s so cheesy I use dire and perplexity, neither of which it’s true.

apart from that I have 7 other classes all but one at level 80 and I roam either solo or in a small group with all of them. only on my necro do I play conditions and even so, rarely, because zerker necro is way more effective in a 5 man roaming team.

if you know what you are doing, conditions are easy to manage and avoid.

You are an Engineer…. Are you seriously implying you have easy to avoid conditions? You have 3 different weapon sets with a condition on each skill besides the auto attack and a huge amount of burning with a single trait, but yeah I’m sure that the 200-400 damage attacks were doing anything and not the 830 burning ticks.

outside of IP, the hardest hitting conditions are very easy to avoid. and when you get hit you have a second chance to deny damage by cleansing.

I have no problem with conditions on any of my 8 characters. Hell, sometimes if Im in a properly supported small group I won’t even bring active condition removal as it’s trivially cleansed by others in the group. for comparison, I never ran a build without a stunbreaker.

imobilize stacking is a whole other thing tho.

oZii.2864:

killahmayne.9518:

There is a reason why nobody would be scared of a Mesmer in full PVT gear, if you see one for that matter, over a mesmer that is full Dire, which you do see a bit. People say dodge but you can’t possibly dodge all winds of chaos bouncing around at you, clones dieing and inflicting conditions while duelists are shooting you at the same time with that mesmer using chaos armor and casting chaos storm on top of your head. People just would rather stick to mathematic calculations and theorycrafting and refuse to see what actually happens in a realistic situation. Theoretically an attack can do 10 billion damage but if it has no chance of landing it does zero damage.

You don’t see full dire mesmers because of a Trait called Sharper images. If you see a full dire mesmer then he did it terribly wrong. I think you think you see full dire mesmers cause a full dire mesmer is dumb and should never kill anyone.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/mesmer/?4.0|b.5q.h5.a.5q.h1.0.0.0|6.5q.0.0.0.0|5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.0.0.0.0.0.0|2x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2w.0|k53.k2a.u5ac.0.0|30.d|0.0.0.0.0|e

This build is as full dire as you can be and it still has a 25-26% crit chance. With phantasms have fury it has a 45-46% which is still pretty good. A full rabid build has around 55-56% crit chance and with fury is a 75%-76% crit chance.

As far as I know the two main phantasms to really take advantage of sharper images are the duelist and the warden. At most from the duelist you will get two extra bleeds? Illusions can inflict bleeds as well, but it wouldn’t be that many more either.

So yes there is a significant DPS increase. However it isn’t the difference between able to kill a lot of players and being unable to kill anybody at all as you imply. If anything, it would only take slightly longer to kill the opponent but probably not much longer.

Technically a condition mesmer shouldn’t kill anybody, whether they use dire or rabid or not because most classes can just run away. See how moot your argument is? Even against a power build you can easily disengage.

Anyways, I digress because this wasn’t even the point I was trying to make. My point was how easily somebody in dire gear outclasses and outdamages somebody in soldier gear in a practical situation. And how anybody in Soldier’s gear wouldn’t kill a thing besides full glass cannons and uplevels. You hit like a *insert b word".

Just my 2 cents in making some points pointless:

• Some condition haters claim pressision is nearly or completely unimportant for the condition dmg dealt
• Other condtion haters claim, that Dhuumfire is totally overpowered

Those 2 statements are contradicting each other. Get your facts strait guys. Also, conditions like criple or freeze are available and important to power builds as well and don’t make a valid point against condition dmg builds.

EDIT:
Also, mesmer condition dmg greatly benefits from precission:

• Sharper Images – Illusions inflict bleeding on critical hits.

glaphen.5230:

Ashin.5986:

glaphen.5230:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQFAGiAiUAAAA-zEBBYhApoFRjVdDTHjIqGA-w
49% with 20 points in Curses, going in 30 is a huge waste and the only precision runes that are worth it is 2 Lyssa for the condition duration and that gives a whole 1%.

Why do you consider it a “huge waste” to put the 10 more points into Curses on a condition build?

What else are you gonna get? Rest of the traits can’t be compared to Reaper’s Protection in WvW or Master of Terror in Spvp.

I don’t really see Reaper’s Protection as being so compelling for WvW. If I get disabled by the enemy zerg, fearing five of them is a nice disruption benefit for my team but it certainly won’t save me. I’m going down once I’m caught away from my zerg without stability.

Meglobob.8620:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I see you are on a NA server, I am on a EU server and in Europe the condition meta is massive…except for thieves, mesmers the other classes all use massive condition application:-

Engineers condition users
Rangers condition users
Necro condition users

Warriors/Eles/Guardians are 50/50 ish split between condition/direct damage…

So the current meta in Europe is conditions…

I don’t understand how it is massive with mesmers?
The reason mesmers can’t get in the meta is because of Necros and Engineers but you make it sound like they are thriving in EU in your condition meta. That doesn’t make sense when mesmers are weak to conditions (by design).

Necro is the counter to them and guardians with support and shouts can help neutralize their conditions easily. Some of the top foreign mesmers I know of switched to direct damage thief.

Condi Eles and Guardians? Really your telling me the top sPvP players in EU are running Condi Eles and Condi Guardians like condi guardian is even a thing? I don’t know man it sounds kind of suspect.

Carighan.6758:

[…]

Look at the numbers in every single skill with DPS conditions.
Do you notice a pattern? Conditions always have a number higher than direct damage, and on average they have much higher damage.

Yes, you can avoid them like direct attacks, yes they take longer to take effect, an yes, you can remove the before they take full effect.

But unless you are cheating or using a build that should not exist, you will be hit eventually, and when you do get hit on average, conditions will hit slower, but harder. Neither critical hits or longer conditions are guaranteed to deal more damage, but conditions will on average deal more.

But with direct damage, you have to be there dealing the damage most of the time, while with conditions, you can apply them and run around avoiding damage while they do their job. And they will do their job, because there is only so much conditions one can remove. Even if you are massively traited and geared for condition removal, removal can’t get even close to keep up with conditions.
With conditions you may not take down anyone with 3 strikes like a critical thief, but you would be able to avoid more damage while damage is done, more the higher your condition duration is.

Do you get a short immunity for a particular condition when you remove it? No. Then they just re-apply it again.

Do you have a limit to the total amount of condition stacks between all conditions you can have in yourself? No. Then you can potentially have max stacks of every single condition.

When they decided to remove energy as a resource for skills, they keep condition’s pressure. But now there’s no 2s recharge condition removals. And party removal is much less frequent. So conditions don’t have to fight against an energy pool. They only have to fight against several long recharge skills and traits.

This also happens with stuns. How many stun breakers do not give a short immunity to stuns or stability? Lots. And how long can you keep a character permanently stunned? Indefinitely with the right builds and enough people. You can try use a stun breaker and evade, but they may have immobilize on you. and your stun breaker are useless in that case.

Because of stacking lots of the same thing working like that, extreme cases can happen.

So, in order to make extremes impossible to happen on the first place, the system itself would have to be reworked.

With conditions, caps per condition are not enough. There has to be something that doesn’t affect normal gameplay, but affects unique cases of entire masses of players repeatedly spamming the same things over and over, like a shared cap between all conditions, so you can’t have on you more conditions than 2 or 3 people can output together.

They have to come up with a better way to balance automaticaly extreme situations with a global system that works for both players and NPCs in all modes of the game, and that can even replace unshakable on champions.

Ashin.5986:

glaphen.5230:

Ashin.5986:

glaphen.5230:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQFAGiAiUAAAA-zEBBYhApoFRjVdDTHjIqGA-w
49% with 20 points in Curses, going in 30 is a huge waste and the only precision runes that are worth it is 2 Lyssa for the condition duration and that gives a whole 1%.

Why do you consider it a “huge waste” to put the 10 more points into Curses on a condition build?

What else are you gonna get? Rest of the traits can’t be compared to Reaper’s Protection in WvW or Master of Terror in Spvp.

I don’t really see Reaper’s Protection as being so compelling for WvW. If I get disabled by the enemy zerg, fearing five of them is a nice disruption benefit for my team but it certainly won’t save me. I’m going down once I’m caught away from my zerg without stability.

This isn’t about zerging, power is obviously better for zerging but in anything with 10 players or less conditions are best.

Do you know why those numbers are higher for conditions? Those numbers are based off of the average, non-crit damage of hitting a 2600 armor target. They also do not take into account any conditional modifiers, such as vulnerability or traits that give bonus damage if X is met.

So, those tooltip values are based off of what is literally the worst case for a power build, compared to condition numbers which show the best case.

As for a condition build being able to run around playing defensively while their conditions work, that is almost true. The thing is, a Power build would have already killed the target and thus wouldn’t have to run around avoiding repercussions.

How would you feel if you played a power build, killed them, and they still got to fight you for a bit, and even possibly reversing your kill? Would suck, right? That’s exactly how condition builds actually work.

killahmayne.9518:

oZii.2864:

killahmayne.9518:

There is a reason why nobody would be scared of a Mesmer in full PVT gear, if you see one for that matter, over a mesmer that is full Dire, which you do see a bit. People say dodge but you can’t possibly dodge all winds of chaos bouncing around at you, clones dieing and inflicting conditions while duelists are shooting you at the same time with that mesmer using chaos armor and casting chaos storm on top of your head. People just would rather stick to mathematic calculations and theorycrafting and refuse to see what actually happens in a realistic situation. Theoretically an attack can do 10 billion damage but if it has no chance of landing it does zero damage.

You don’t see full dire mesmers because of a Trait called Sharper images. If you see a full dire mesmer then he did it terribly wrong. I think you think you see full dire mesmers cause a full dire mesmer is dumb and should never kill anyone.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/mesmer/?4.0|b.5q.h5.a.5q.h1.0.0.0|6.5q.0.0.0.0|5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.0.0.0.0.0.0|2x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2w.0|k53.k2a.u5ac.0.0|30.d|0.0.0.0.0|e

This build is as full dire as you can be and it still has a 25-26% crit chance. With phantasms have fury it has a 45-46% which is still pretty good. A full rabid build has around 55-56% crit chance and with fury is a 75%-76% crit chance.

As far as I know the two main phantasms to really take advantage of sharper images are the duelist and the warden. At most from the duelist you will get two extra bleeds? Illusions can inflict bleeds as well, but it wouldn’t be that many more either.

So yes there is a significant DPS increase. However it isn’t the difference between able to kill a lot of players and being unable to kill anybody at all as you imply. If anything, it would only take slightly longer to kill the opponent but probably not much longer.

Technically a condition mesmer shouldn’t kill anybody, whether they use dire or rabid or not because most classes can just run away. See how moot your argument is? Even against a power build you can easily disengage.

Anyways, I digress because this wasn’t even the point I was trying to make. My point was how easily somebody in dire gear outclasses and outdamages somebody in soldier gear in a practical situation. And how anybody in Soldier’s gear wouldn’t kill a thing besides full glass cannons and uplevels. You hit like a *insert b word".

It does matter especially running pistol 76% of 8 is 6 stacks of bleeds
45% of 8 sometimes will give you 3 bleeds and sometimes 4. Nobody gets hit by all of duelist right? So 3-4 of your bullets are a threat to cause bleeding whereas rabid 6 can cause bleeding. You can dodge half of duelist chain not the whole chain. So with higher crit chance you have a better chance to proc bleed even if they do dodge.

Your issue in all that dire is your clones!

The Phantasms have fury not your clones and running staff the clones is what its all about getting double bleed procs. So your clones 25% chance to proc sharper images(terrible) and they attack slower then you do. I don’t know man you really are underestimating rabid on a PU build running dire is killing ALOT of your dps.

It looks like if that is what you run you just blow dodges for on death traits to kill people. I also wouldnt run the tunning crystals I would run maintenance oils to bump up precision but thats what I do on my mes when I run PU.

glaphen.5230:

You are an Engineer…. Are you seriously implying you have easy to avoid conditions? You have 3 different weapon sets with a condition on each skill besides the auto attack and a huge amount of burning with a single trait, but yeah I’m sure that the 200-400 damage attacks were doing anything and not the 830 burning ticks.

What does this have to do with anything? Are you afraid of the rifles bleed when you are hit by an all direct damage build?? (for I asure all rifle users are power builds)

Let me offer you this challenge oh great wizard of engineer knowledge. In full condition gear what is the best damage per second any of the engineers 3 weapons sets can do? Go all out and break it down for us. Or even be lazy and go to the engineer forums for it, I don’t care. You will be shocked at the low damage. Of coarse we all know you will never do this. As you prefer to make your claims with out actual knowledge of your topic. As is evident in this thread. If you disagree, I will be glad to quote you some of you statement that were very literally, filled with mis-information, earlier on in the thread..

Also, I challenge you to find a condition weapons set that does have skills that are have direct damage attacks (just to show the silliness of your post I quoted.

Then find us a direct damage weapons set that does not have a condition on it. I doubt you will. Which makes you post here a bit useless.

As far as your direct reference here to the damage and the burning, what are you trying to say exactly? Seriously, what is your point? I mean you say " I’m sure that the 200-400 damage attacks were doing anything and not the 830 burning ticks."
But what difference does that make? I can go full power and do 2100 direct damage and have 4s of burning for 300.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Carighan.6758:

[…]

Look at the numbers in every single skill with DPS conditions.
Do you notice a pattern? Conditions always have a number higher than direct damage, and on average they have much higher damage.

Did you really say that?

That is your base damage!! It doesn’t show you how much damage you will do if you crit. It is also your damage if the target had 2600 armor. Not everyone is running around with 2600 armor.

You wrote all that and started with that statement?

Conditions don’t do more damage than physical attacks.
Conditions don’t burst faster than physical attacks.
Conditions need time to build up stacks in order to do significant damage.
Conditions are fine, class builds are what needs to be looked at.

oZii.2864:

killahmayne.9518:

oZii.2864:

killahmayne.9518:

There is a reason why nobody would be scared of a Mesmer in full PVT gear, if you see one for that matter, over a mesmer that is full Dire, which you do see a bit. People say dodge but you can’t possibly dodge all winds of chaos bouncing around at you, clones dieing and inflicting conditions while duelists are shooting you at the same time with that mesmer using chaos armor and casting chaos storm on top of your head. People just would rather stick to mathematic calculations and theorycrafting and refuse to see what actually happens in a realistic situation. Theoretically an attack can do 10 billion damage but if it has no chance of landing it does zero damage.

You don’t see full dire mesmers because of a Trait called Sharper images. If you see a full dire mesmer then he did it terribly wrong. I think you think you see full dire mesmers cause a full dire mesmer is dumb and should never kill anyone.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/mesmer/?4.0|b.5q.h5.a.5q.h1.0.0.0|6.5q.0.0.0.0|5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.0.0.0.0.0.0|2x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2w.0|k53.k2a.u5ac.0.0|30.d|0.0.0.0.0|e

This build is as full dire as you can be and it still has a 25-26% crit chance. With phantasms have fury it has a 45-46% which is still pretty good. A full rabid build has around 55-56% crit chance and with fury is a 75%-76% crit chance.

As far as I know the two main phantasms to really take advantage of sharper images are the duelist and the warden. At most from the duelist you will get two extra bleeds? Illusions can inflict bleeds as well, but it wouldn’t be that many more either.

So yes there is a significant DPS increase. However it isn’t the difference between able to kill a lot of players and being unable to kill anybody at all as you imply. If anything, it would only take slightly longer to kill the opponent but probably not much longer.

Technically a condition mesmer shouldn’t kill anybody, whether they use dire or rabid or not because most classes can just run away. See how moot your argument is? Even against a power build you can easily disengage.

Anyways, I digress because this wasn’t even the point I was trying to make. My point was how easily somebody in dire gear outclasses and outdamages somebody in soldier gear in a practical situation. And how anybody in Soldier’s gear wouldn’t kill a thing besides full glass cannons and uplevels. You hit like a *insert b word".

It does matter especially running pistol 76% of 8 is 6 stacks of bleeds
45% of 8 sometimes will give you 3 bleeds and sometimes 4. Nobody gets hit by all of duelist right? So 3-4 of your bullets are a threat to cause bleeding whereas rabid 6 can cause bleeding. You can dodge half of duelist chain not the whole chain. So with higher crit chance you have a better chance to proc bleed even if they do dodge.

Your issue in all that dire is your clones!

The Phantasms have fury not your clones and running staff the clones is what its all about getting double bleed procs. So your clones 25% chance to proc sharper images(terrible) and they attack slower then you do. I don’t know man you really are underestimating rabid on a PU build running dire is killing ALOT of your dps.

It looks like if that is what you run you just blow dodges for on death traits to kill people. I also wouldnt run the tunning crystals I would run maintenance oils to bump up precision but thats what I do on my mes when I run PU.

Theoretically, all shots from the duelist chain can proc bleeds. If you dodge half of it, that is four shots dodged. On average for a dire build that would be two procced bleeds, on average for a rabid mesmer it would be 3 procced bleeds.

And how easily are clones killed? That they will proc the on death trait to kill anyway rather then live and shoot multiple bolts to proc bleeds? And you have to take into account the poison, burns, torment and confusion that the Mesmer also has, bleeds is only apart of the equation and in the grand scheme of things and with all that considered, you lose the potential for a few to several bleed stacks?

I never denied that a Dire Mesmer has significantly less DPS than a Rabid Mesmer. I said not significant to the point where a Rabid Mesmer would kill very easily and a Dire Mesmer would kill nothing.

Survival is just as important as DPS. With a Dire build you get around 6.5K more HP which is huge, allowing you to survive 2v1s better, better absorb burst, etc. And better utilize the strategy of kiting while passively applying bleeds and other conditions.

And like you said, you can switch the tuning crystal for maintenance oils. It is still a Dire build with decent damage output.

oZii.2864:

Meglobob.8620:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I see you are on a NA server, I am on a EU server and in Europe the condition meta is massive…except for thieves, mesmers the other classes all use massive condition application:-

Engineers condition users
Rangers condition users
Necro condition users

Warriors/Eles/Guardians are 50/50 ish split between condition/direct damage…

So the current meta in Europe is conditions…

I don’t understand how it is massive with mesmers?
The reason mesmers can’t get in the meta is because of Necros and Engineers but you make it sound like they are thriving in EU in your condition meta. That doesn’t make sense when mesmers are weak to conditions (by design).

You forgot to read the word, ‘except’, Mesmers don’t really have a decent/good condition build under the current meta AFAIK, so after go direct damage which does them no favours whatsoever…since it makes them even more fragile, although at least they have illusions/limited stealth which is more than a Ele has.

I agree with what you say about Mesmers. This current meta left them out in the cold.

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

oZii.2864:

Hey I got one for you since we are just throwing things around!

At level 80 you have 916 power to start!!!!!!!
At level 80 you have 0 condition damage!!!!

If I told you I was giving you almost 1000 of any stat for free you would take it.

That 916 power to start means you put 916 points somewhere else.

Say you like 2000 power in your build that means you can start moving points somewhere else earlier because you got 916 power for free.

Obviously the game isn’t balanced around this at all.

Are you sure it isn’t?

Last I checked any other rune gives you 165 of its primary stat whereas a condition damage rune gives you 183. Why do you think that is?

So you are telling me that they don’t balance the game around 916 power to start? Maybe they should take away the 916 power and everyone starts at 0 I bet everyone would love that. I bet 916 power to start factors into balance because it factors into everyones build even if they don’t realize it.

A condition build wants to reach 2000 condition damage he has to invest 2000 stat points toward condition damage. A power build has to invest 1084 stat points. Everyone knows that power> all offensive stats it is the most important offensive stat when building direct damage but you seem to imply 916 power just doesn’t matter. Ok.

Condition damage is the only offensive stat that starts at 0. The base critical damage is 150% so even if you don’t invest in critical damage you will always do more then base damage when you crit even if you don’t want to. You start with 4% critical chance but you say its a fluff stat.

Killface.1896:

You forgetting condition ignore armor,I be happy with 0 points at lvl 80 and ignoring armor with my power hits…

Not forgotten just not mentioned because I brought up 916 power because people are saying that condition builds only need to invest in 1 stat when power gets a 916 point headstart for stat points. The 2 just can’t be compared point for point but people keep trying so I threw 916 points in the ring.

You are correct so since direct damage and condition act different why are people still trying to compare them as if they act the same? They don’t kill the same, they aren’t effected by defenses the same but still people keep using the argument as if they are the same stats.

Apples and oranges tbh.

Conditions’ have internal base damage, meaning if you have 0 conditions damage, they still do damage. Direct damage scales off power. If you have 0 power you do 0 direct damage.

coglin.1867:

glaphen.5230:

You are an Engineer…. Are you seriously implying you have easy to avoid conditions? You have 3 different weapon sets with a condition on each skill besides the auto attack and a huge amount of burning with a single trait, but yeah I’m sure that the 200-400 damage attacks were doing anything and not the 830 burning ticks.

What does this have to do with anything? Are you afraid of the rifles bleed when you are hit by an all direct damage build?? (for I asure all rifle users are power builds)

Let me offer you this challenge oh great wizard of engineer knowledge. In full condition gear what is the best damage per second any of the engineers 3 weapons sets can do? Go all out and break it down for us. Or even be lazy and go to the engineer forums for it, I don’t care. You will be shocked at the low damage. Of coarse we all know you will never do this. As you prefer to make your claims with out actual knowledge of your topic. As is evident in this thread. If you disagree, I will be glad to quote you some of you statement that were very literally, filled with mis-information, earlier on in the thread..

Also, I challenge you to find a condition weapons set that does have skills that are have direct damage attacks (just to show the silliness of your post I quoted.

Then find us a direct damage weapons set that does not have a condition on it. I doubt you will. Which makes you post here a bit useless.

As far as your direct reference here to the damage and the burning, what are you trying to say exactly? Seriously, what is your point? I mean you say " I’m sure that the 200-400 damage attacks were doing anything and not the 830 burning ticks."
But what difference does that make? I can go full power and do 2100 direct damage and have 4s of burning for 300.

Well assuming 1023 condition duration in Spvp on a point against a guy swinging once a second and ignoring sigils, on crit procs, and runes
583:Burning
186:Poison
280:3 stacks of bleeding
992:7 stacks of confusion

Wow a whole 2041 damage a second and thats ignoring a TON of damage sources as you /dance. Your 50% chance to get a 2100 bomb auto attack on a lightly armored target cannot even compare with this damage with a tanky build.

NO NO NO NO this is wrong let me edit it and make it far tankier with less damage.
845:7 stacks of confusion
514:Burning
239:3 stacks of bleeding
158:Poison
1756 with 744 condition damage with a bunker build ignoring sigils, runes and a ton of damage sources.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Conditions’ have internal base damage, meaning if you have 0 conditions damage, they still do damage. Direct damage scales off power. If you have 0 power you do 0 direct damage.

What? Are you serious? You aren’t serious with the 0 power thing right?

Also please tell me how you get 0 power in guild wars 2?

oZii.2864:

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Conditions’ have internal base damage, meaning if you have 0 conditions damage, they still do damage. Direct damage scales off power. If you have 0 power you do 0 direct damage.

What? Are you serious?

Also please tell me how you get 0 power in guild wars 2?

I lol’d as well.

glaphen.5230:

Well assuming 1023 condition duration in Spvp on a point against a guy swinging once a second and ignoring sigils, on crit procs, and runes
583:Burning
186:Poison
280:3 stacks of bleeding
992:7 stacks of confusion

Wow a whole 2041 damage a second and thats ignoring a TON of damage sources as you /dance. Your 50% chance to get a 2100 bomb auto attack on a lightly armored target cannot even compare with this damage with a tanky build.

Glaphen are you arguing just to argue? I checked some of your older posts and what you say here doesn’t add up to some of your posts in your history. You know your stuff on most classes from what I skimmed over so it doesn’t seem to add up unless you just like arguing with coglin.

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

Well assuming 1023 condition duration in Spvp on a point against a guy swinging once a second and ignoring sigils, on crit procs, and runes
583:Burning
186:Poison
280:3 stacks of bleeding
992:7 stacks of confusion

Wow a whole 2041 damage a second and thats ignoring a TON of damage sources as you /dance. Your 50% chance to get a 2100 bomb auto attack on a lightly armored target cannot even compare with this damage with a tanky build.

Glaphen are you arguing just to argue? I checked some of your older posts and what you say here doesn’t add up to some of your posts in your history. You know your stuff on most classes from what I skimmed over so it doesn’t seem to add up unless you just like arguing with coglin.

Link please, I’ve complained about the same stuff since I started posting. Also edited the post with a pure bunker version.

Why does everyone keep saying “You can stack this and this and this” but never says “Then use this skill and cure some of them lowering the damage”

Also confusion shouldn’t be counted into any DPS calculations as it requires you to attack, if you don’t then it does 0 damage, so if you want to be pedantic it would be half the damage calc example.

Remicity.8430:

Why does everyone keep saying “You can stack this and this and this” but never says “Then use this skill and cure some of them lowering the damage”

Also confusion shouldn’t be counted into any DPS calculations as it requires you to attack, if you don’t then it does 0 damage, so if you want to be pedantic it would be half the damage calc example.

So then the bunker is still doing 700 dps ignoring the fact that the number I used gets higher over time and that it was just something you can inflict in less than 2 seconds and then /dance. I also ignored 5 stacks of confusion, sigils and runes. So 700 damage vs 0 as the healing power bunker Engineers cooldowns are rapidly coming up. Engineers also have almost no cooldowns with the 3 kit build I used so its not like condition removal works or any animations to dodge.

glaphen.5230:

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

Well assuming 1023 condition duration in Spvp on a point against a guy swinging once a second and ignoring sigils, on crit procs, and runes
583:Burning
186:Poison
280:3 stacks of bleeding
992:7 stacks of confusion

Wow a whole 2041 damage a second and thats ignoring a TON of damage sources as you /dance. Your 50% chance to get a 2100 bomb auto attack on a lightly armored target cannot even compare with this damage with a tanky build.

Glaphen are you arguing just to argue? I checked some of your older posts and what you say here doesn’t add up to some of your posts in your history. You know your stuff on most classes from what I skimmed over so it doesn’t seem to add up unless you just like arguing with coglin.

Link please, I’ve complained about the same stuff since I started posting. Also edited the post with a pure bunker version.

I saw a post where you mentioned dhuumfire but I can’t find it

The bulk of what I read was in here
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Class-balance-in-WvW-is-just-fine/page/13#post3457902
Alot of posts in here

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Warrior-Usain-Bolt

If you aren’t built for fighting condition builds and not good enough to avoid them then don’t fight someone who looks like a condition build? If you aren’t built with any mobility at all then why are you roaming?

This one is what struck me though if that is how you see it then I agree. This is basically saying if that isn’t a fight in your favor to win if you still engage and die what is the problem?

If your condition removal is weak then you die that is how it should be. When I go out on my engineer for example I don’t run a stunbreaker if I get stun chained I know that is a possibility I would die. I don’t think stuns need to be nerfed or changed because I’m running around with no stun breaker many necro builds are the same run around with no stun breaker or 1 max.

You see it all the time in WvW 2-3 people beating on a necro and his only out is plague form which usually just delays the inevitable.

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

oZii.2864:

Hey I got one for you since we are just throwing things around!

At level 80 you have 916 power to start!!!!!!!
At level 80 you have 0 condition damage!!!!

If I told you I was giving you almost 1000 of any stat for free you would take it.

That 916 power to start means you put 916 points somewhere else.

Say you like 2000 power in your build that means you can start moving points somewhere else earlier because you got 916 power for free.

Obviously the game isn’t balanced around this at all.

Are you sure it isn’t?

Last I checked any other rune gives you 165 of its primary stat whereas a condition damage rune gives you 183. Why do you think that is?

So you are telling me that they don’t balance the game around 916 power to start? Maybe they should take away the 916 power and everyone starts at 0 I bet everyone would love that. I bet 916 power to start factors into balance because it factors into everyones build even if they don’t realize it.

A condition build wants to reach 2000 condition damage he has to invest 2000 stat points toward condition damage. A power build has to invest 1084 stat points. Everyone knows that power> all offensive stats it is the most important offensive stat when building direct damage but you seem to imply 916 power just doesn’t matter. Ok.

Condition damage is the only offensive stat that starts at 0. The base critical damage is 150% so even if you don’t invest in critical damage you will always do more then base damage when you crit even if you don’t want to. You start with 4% critical chance but you say its a fluff stat.

Killface.1896:

You forgetting condition ignore armor,I be happy with 0 points at lvl 80 and ignoring armor with my power hits…

Not forgotten just not mentioned because I brought up 916 power because people are saying that condition builds only need to invest in 1 stat when power gets a 916 point headstart for stat points. The 2 just can’t be compared point for point but people keep trying so I threw 916 points in the ring.

You are correct so since direct damage and condition act different why are people still trying to compare them as if they act the same? They don’t kill the same, they aren’t effected by defenses the same but still people keep using the argument as if they are the same stats.

Apples and oranges tbh.

that so called 900 base power is made to even out with the base toughness you know so you dont hit 0s on mobs and players conditions have base damage and stack and also ignore armor so

without the 900 power toughness and vit we’d be no diferent than ambient creature

so nope invalid argument

1 guy mentioned it already. just implement a hard cap for maximal condi-dmg per second on a guy depending on life. then we have the same like in gw1. there it was not possible to get more then 10 degeneration ticks.

with that it should not be possible anymore to burst with condis. thats the only problem we have atm with condis. and thats not really a condi problem, its a game problem. the game or engine provides to much things that works additive without a cap or dimishing returns. so everything that overextend the border of being ok gets smelley cheese.

its every where.

evadespam, condisspam, certain boonspam,cc spam and so on. the game needs CAPS!

hooma.9642:

1 guy mentioned it already. just implement a hard cap for maximal condi-dmg per second on a guy depending on life. then we have the same like in gw1. there it was not possible to get more then 10 degeneration ticks.

with that it should not be possible anymore to burst with condis. thats the only problem we have atm with condis. and thats not really a condi problem, its a game problem. the game or engine provides to much things that works additive without a cap or dimishing returns. so everything that overextend the border of being ok gets smelley cheese.

its every where.

evadespam, condisspam, certain boonspam,cc spam and so on. the game needs CAPS!

25 stack limit is a cap.

Rezzet.3614:

that so called 900 base power is made to even out with the base toughness you know so you dont hit 0s on mobs and players conditions have base damage and stack and also ignore armor so

without the 900 power toughness and vit we’d be no diferent than ambient creature

so nope invalid argument

Exactly apples and oranges was my point there but people want to use power to as a comparison to condition damage. Argument is valid there because I’m saying that comparing the 2 is impossible because they act totally different. That was the point of my post it wasn’t a for or against condition post. Just general why are we trying to compare them.

glaphen.5230:

So then the bunker is still doing 700 dps ignoring the fact that the number I used gets higher over time and that it was just something you can inflict in less than 2 seconds and then /dance. I also ignored 5 stacks of confusion, sigils and runes. So 700 damage vs 0 as the healing power bunker Engineers cooldowns are rapidly coming up. Engineers also have almost no cooldowns with the 3 kit build I used so its not like condition removal works or any animations to dodge.

No animations to dodge?

Bombs are easy to avoid, grenades are easy to avoid assuming they’re not on top of you, prybar is easy to dodge, magnet pull is predictable just learn the cast time. Flamethrower has only a 1s burn with dodgy hitboxes, if you stand in the napalm field you deserve to lose the fight.

Engineer applications are really predictable. Hell the fire bomb has a big pillar of smoke above it before it goes off.

Also why is the engineer in your example doing 700dps but the opponent doing 0? Is he standing there doing nothing?

Again, the number can get higher but you can cleanse it. If you main a class that has weak condition removal then you have to deal with it. Honestly most people who complain run builds with 0 counters to condis. Every class has some form of removal, some are better at it than others but everyone can do it, just like everyone can counter burst.

Remicity.8430:

Also why is the engineer in your example doing 700dps but the opponent doing 0? Is he standing there doing nothing?

Well, if the Confusion is doing no damage, then most likely. Not necessarily, though.

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

Well assuming 1023 condition duration in Spvp on a point against a guy swinging once a second and ignoring sigils, on crit procs, and runes
583:Burning
186:Poison
280:3 stacks of bleeding
992:7 stacks of confusion

Wow a whole 2041 damage a second and thats ignoring a TON of damage sources as you /dance. Your 50% chance to get a 2100 bomb auto attack on a lightly armored target cannot even compare with this damage with a tanky build.

Glaphen are you arguing just to argue? I checked some of your older posts and what you say here doesn’t add up to some of your posts in your history. You know your stuff on most classes from what I skimmed over so it doesn’t seem to add up unless you just like arguing with coglin.

Link please, I’ve complained about the same stuff since I started posting. Also edited the post with a pure bunker version.

I saw a post where you mentioned dhuumfire but I can’t find it

The bulk of what I read was in here
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Class-balance-in-WvW-is-just-fine/page/13#post3457902
Alot of posts in here

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Warrior-Usain-Bolt

If you aren’t built for fighting condition builds and not good enough to avoid them then don’t fight someone who looks like a condition build? If you aren’t built with any mobility at all then why are you roaming?

This one is what struck me though if that is how you see it then I agree. This is basically saying if that isn’t a fight in your favor to win if you still engage and die what is the problem?

If your condition removal is weak then you die that is how it should be. When I go out on my engineer for example I don’t run a stunbreaker if I get stun chained I know that is a possibility I would die. I don’t think stuns need to be nerfed or changed because I’m running around with no stun breaker many necro builds are the same run around with no stun breaker or 1 max.

You see it all the time in WvW 2-3 people beating on a necro and his only out is plague form which usually just delays the inevitable.

Still doesn’t change small group fights though and I’ve been complaining more about Spvp and how broken Terrormancer is in WvW if you get within 1200 range of it, you are dead with no chance of escape without 2 stun breaks and a mobility build with anti chill/cripple, assuming you don’t try to CC him. Such a fun roaming meta in WvW where you can only run away from condition builds, fight the same Thief 100 times without being able to finish him or be either one yourself.

oZii.2864:

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Conditions’ have internal base damage, meaning if you have 0 conditions damage, they still do damage. Direct damage scales off power. If you have 0 power you do 0 direct damage.

What? Are you serious? You aren’t serious with the 0 power thing right?

Also please tell me how you get 0 power in guild wars 2?

The way direct damage scales, one needs base power. Conditions already have base damage without condition damage from gear and traits. So you don’t start with base condi. Obviously, 0 power is unobtainable, I was just explaining why one has base power but not base condi.