Guild Wars 2

hooma.9642:

yes auto on scepter is maybe less effective without dhuumfire but still hits like a truck over the time with condidmg and application of bleed. or u wanna tell me we should dodge grasping dead cause the 2 bleeds or feast of corrumption on a condimancer?

i also throw incendinary powder into the mix

i hope u realize unless some good skills there isnt much to dodge on condi-builds. but all the spammy thinks apply condis that kill u rapidly.

What you should dodge is dependant on the situation and your own build. Signet of Spite is always worth dodging/blocking, but perhaps you have an advantage and want to deny the necro life force. So, dodge Feast of Corruption. Are you getting kited around? Grasping Dead should be avoided, then. Afraid of a condition transfer? Better dodge that Deathly Swarm. Need your damage to stay up? avoid the Enfeebling Blood.

Yes, you can’t usually avoid all of it. You aren’t supposed to. That is where the player’s skill comes in: making decisions rapidly, and responding to what your opponent decides. If you could avoid everything, you just would. You aren’t making decisions then. This is true on power builds as well. Do you dodge the Arcing Shot, Pin Down, Backbreaker, Earthshaker? Do you block the Rapid Fire, Hunter’s Shot, or Barrage?

I am not commenting on Incindiary Powder because I feel it also needs a rework similar to Dhuumfire.

My advice for playing against condition builds is a bit strange. Unless you have a lot of vitality, play as though you were a Zerker build. Knights, Clerics, Berserkers, Rabid, Rampagers, etc. all go down equally fast to condition damage, but all of them (save Cleric, which stands the best chance of those I mentioned) can pump out damage faster than condition builds. Time is not your friend when facing condition damage, so you need to get in, do your thing, and get out, avoiding as much as you can in the process. In other words, typical Zerker playstyle.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

hooma.9642:

yes auto on scepter is maybe less effective without dhuumfire but still hits like a truck over the time with condidmg and application of bleed. or u wanna tell me we should dodge grasping dead cause the 2 bleeds or feast of corrumption on a condimancer?

i also throw incendinary powder into the mix

i hope u realize unless some good skills there isnt much to dodge on condi-builds. but all the spammy thinks apply condis that kill u rapidly.

What you should dodge is dependant on the situation and your own build. Signet of Spite is always worth dodging/blocking, but perhaps you have an advantage and want to deny the necro life force. So, dodge Feast of Corruption. Are you getting kited around? Grasping Dead should be avoided, then. Afraid of a condition transfer? Better dodge that Deathly Swarm. Need your damage to stay up? avoid the Enfeebling Blood.

Yes, you can’t usually avoid all of it. You aren’t supposed to. That is where the player’s skill comes in: making decisions rapidly, and responding to what your opponent decides. If you could avoid everything, you just would. You aren’t making decisions then. This is true on power builds as well. Do you dodge the Arcing Shot, Pin Down, Backbreaker, Earthshaker? Do you block the Rapid Fire, Hunter’s Shot, or Barrage?

I am not commenting on Incindiary Powder because I feel it also needs a rework similar to Dhuumfire.

how i mentioned, some skills are worth to be dodged. but your little explanation should show u that u arent dodging any of the dmg-ones. it also shows besides these “big” skills the dmg portion comes in too small pieces to complete avoid it and sums up quickly. that the difference between condi-builds and power builds atm. its a race where the favour lies in condis.

Prove it. You keep suggesting the race favors conditions, then give some side ways suggestion and state something completely irrelevant. I mean come on, you could at list make up an off the wall anecdotal example or some thing. As of now, you haven’t chosen a single logic path that didn’t apply to direct damage builds as much as it applies to condition builds.

coglin.1867:

Prove it. You keep suggesting the race favors conditions, then give some side ways suggestion and state something completely irrelevant. I mean come on, you could at list make up an off the wall anecdotal example or some thing. As of now, you haven’t chosen a single logic path that didn’t apply to direct damage builds as much as it applies to condition builds.

? not any own logic? how about looking in some of the other xxx threads about condition dmg. do u think i want always write the same stuff, that get replied with no logic like this guy does it https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Sigils-Ele-and-Engineer-punished/page/3#post3876572 in other discussion?

how about u look what weapons are usually condi-weapons and what are used for dmg builds for start. it should clear that condition classes usually arent melee. so they dont need sticking to a target like a dmg class. => soft cc isnt esp rewarding against ranged build as like against melee.. => kiting.

as next step you could also count the counter to both dmg types. or how about a typical build is looking and what the rotation is. or do players like u really think dmg classes kill with aa in pvp?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My advice for playing against condition builds is a bit strange. Unless you have a lot of vitality, play as though you were a Zerker build. Knights, Clerics, Berserkers, Rabid, Rampagers, etc. all go down equally fast to condition damage, but all of them (save Cleric, which stands the best chance of those I mentioned) can pump out damage faster than condition builds. Time is not your friend when facing condition damage, so you need to get in, do your thing, and get out, avoiding as much as you can in the process. In other words, typical Zerker playstyle.

This. Many people optimize for anti power damage defenses; then condition damage chews through them like a hot knife through butter because for some reason they decided to play the same versus both damage types.

It obviously does not go well for them based on the number of complaint threads.

DeWolfe.2174:

coglin.1867:

I am going to quote you on this matter from another thread of this identical content.

Because I’m not the one denying an imbalance exists unless people start posting specific and detailed builds! GG read more as threads were merged. Obviously the context is disjointed now.

Your right, you are not denying it, your just making uneducated statements that it is. If you spent any time educating yourself or sharing your facts from doing so, you would not be so easily dismissed. Many of us on the other hand, already have. As well us many many videos, and damage comparisons. Part of the problem is that every Johnny come lately thinks they are so special that they need to make their own topic on this subject, instead of keeping to one or two. This buries useful information. To make it worse, posters like yourself prefere to blindly claim the do not exist rather then take a few seconds to look for them. Multiple posters have posted builds and video in threads in the last 3 weeks.

The problem isn’t so much that you make your claim with no evidence after chiding others for doing so, it is that you never even tested it on multiple professions to even know.

All I can say is

What did you post to “prove” your point? You simply gave an unsubstantiated opinion. So please do continue trying to defend your point of view without justification as well.

Cecilia.5179:

One issue I have with conditions is that there are fewer ways to defend against it than direct damage. Both Vitality and toughness help mitigate direct damage, while only Vitality helps against condition damage. Sure, you can get -% condition duration food, but oftentimes, the enemy is running +% condition duration runes and food, while with direct damage, one could use protection and weakness to defend themselves, Although vulnerability and might could overcome these two active defenses, it is not easy to do, and you still have both toughness and vitality passively defending you. Also, many would not consider it sensible to run Melandru’s and -% condition duration food because you lose too much damage potential by doing this (this is true for both condition and power builds, though certain builds still benefit more from -% condition duration than additional power). One could also say it is not sensible to go out of your way to get weakness or protection, but even without those, you still have two built in stats (vitality and toughness) to keep you safe from power-based damage, aside from only vitality protecting you from condition-based damage. Also, every character has an option of several built in heal skills. Among those, only one, for the most part, will remove conditions. On the other hand, almost all heal skills (except the really bad ones) can take care of power-based damage without the fear of the healing being completely negated in a few seconds (unless fighting outnumbered, or against a full zerk build). I personally think the way toughness and vitality works needs to be improved so that it actually has meaning in PvE and can more reliably fend off conditions. In addition, while I find every class to have many options to deal with power based damage without too much sacrifice (except for eles, who only have a few, but they’re too busy traiting to counter conditions to make use of most of them), a character may have to invest into traitlines, runes, and/or food that only lowers their damage, which hinders them further when trying out-damaging the common tanky condition builds (excluding warriors, who are blessed with cleansing ire to deal with all damage). Not to say conditions are broken, though. I think with enough experience, one could learn to beat any foe condition or power, as long as they have a few defensive tools to use against both.

I tried to make this as clean and self-proven as possible, so as to not get my head ripped of by peers. XD

Speaking from a power ranger’s perspective, I can easily deal with conditions. In a single build I run:

18k HP
EB
SoR
Healing Spring
Melandru Runes
Lemongrass

As you have alluded to however, the problem with this is that I don’t have enough damage to kill all other classes. In my case it is Guardians and Warriors. Every other class is fine but I don’t have the raw damage to beat the heavies. Obviously condition classes don’t have this problem.

I don’t see this as a problem with conditions necessarily, its a problem with power builds.

Sube Dai.8496:

Speaking from a power ranger’s perspective, I can easily deal with conditions. In a single build I run:

18k HP
EB
SoR
Healing Spring
Melandru Runes
Lemongrass

As you have alluded to however, the problem with this is that I don’t have enough damage to kill all other classes. In my case it is Guardians and Warriors. Every other class is fine but I don’t have the raw damage to beat the heavies. Obviously condition classes don’t have this problem.

I don’t see this as a problem with conditions necessarily, its a problem with power builds.

I see this actually as evidence of balance. You specced a bit more into dealing with conditions, so you have to lose out somewhere. In your case, it was damage that suffered. You still do all right against everyone else, but high armor targets are a weakness for you.

Every build has, and should have, weaknesses (though some have more than others).

hooma.9642:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

hooma.9642:

yes auto on scepter is maybe less effective without dhuumfire but still hits like a truck over the time with condidmg and application of bleed. or u wanna tell me we should dodge grasping dead cause the 2 bleeds or feast of corrumption on a condimancer?

i also throw incendinary powder into the mix

i hope u realize unless some good skills there isnt much to dodge on condi-builds. but all the spammy thinks apply condis that kill u rapidly.

What you should dodge is dependant on the situation and your own build. Signet of Spite is always worth dodging/blocking, but perhaps you have an advantage and want to deny the necro life force. So, dodge Feast of Corruption. Are you getting kited around? Grasping Dead should be avoided, then. Afraid of a condition transfer? Better dodge that Deathly Swarm. Need your damage to stay up? avoid the Enfeebling Blood.

Yes, you can’t usually avoid all of it. You aren’t supposed to. That is where the player’s skill comes in: making decisions rapidly, and responding to what your opponent decides. If you could avoid everything, you just would. You aren’t making decisions then. This is true on power builds as well. Do you dodge the Arcing Shot, Pin Down, Backbreaker, Earthshaker? Do you block the Rapid Fire, Hunter’s Shot, or Barrage?

I am not commenting on Incindiary Powder because I feel it also needs a rework similar to Dhuumfire.

how i mentioned, some skills are worth to be dodged. but your little explanation should show u that u arent dodging any of the dmg-ones. it also shows besides these “big” skills the dmg portion comes in too small pieces to complete avoid it and sums up quickly. that the difference between condi-builds and power builds atm. its a race where the favour lies in condis.

What “damage ones” are you not dodging? Grasping Dead and Enfeebling Blood are the heavy-hitting skills. There are just other reasons to dodge each one than just avoiding the damage.

And please, in the future, use correct capatalization, grammer, punctuation, and spelling when trying to make a convincing argument. Otherwise you look like a high-school dropout posting on their phone.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Sube Dai.8496:

Speaking from a power ranger’s perspective, I can easily deal with conditions. In a single build I run:

18k HP
EB
SoR
Healing Spring
Melandru Runes
Lemongrass

As you have alluded to however, the problem with this is that I don’t have enough damage to kill all other classes. In my case it is Guardians and Warriors. Every other class is fine but I don’t have the raw damage to beat the heavies. Obviously condition classes don’t have this problem.

I don’t see this as a problem with conditions necessarily, its a problem with power builds.

I see this actually as evidence of balance. You specced a bit more into dealing with conditions, so you have to lose out somewhere. In your case, it was damage that suffered. You still do all right against everyone else, but high armor targets are a weakness for you.

Every build has, and should have, weaknesses (though some have more than others).

Yeh that’s a fair point. I guess is there anyone in this scenario who is not balanced – are their classes who cant kill anyone if they run Melandru+Lemongrass…?

Sube Dai.8496:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Sube Dai.8496:

Speaking from a power ranger’s perspective, I can easily deal with conditions. In a single build I run:

18k HP
EB
SoR
Healing Spring
Melandru Runes
Lemongrass

As you have alluded to however, the problem with this is that I don’t have enough damage to kill all other classes. In my case it is Guardians and Warriors. Every other class is fine but I don’t have the raw damage to beat the heavies. Obviously condition classes don’t have this problem.

I don’t see this as a problem with conditions necessarily, its a problem with power builds.

I see this actually as evidence of balance. You specced a bit more into dealing with conditions, so you have to lose out somewhere. In your case, it was damage that suffered. You still do all right against everyone else, but high armor targets are a weakness for you.

Every build has, and should have, weaknesses (though some have more than others).

Yeh that’s a fair point. I guess is there anyone in this scenario who is not balanced – are their classes who cant kill anyone if they run Melandru+Lemongrass…?

Dire/Rabid necros have a pretty tough time. I can’t say I’m familiar enough with any other condi builds to comment with them, though.

Trying to kill anyone who refuses to stay and fight as a power spec necro against that combo is pretty futile as well thanks to how slow you are. You have one gap closer that often will not hit in broken terrain (Dark Path). Most of your tools to keep someone engaged are conditions.

Trying to fight as pure condi PU Mesmer against that is rather hellish too. I imagine any condi build will have issues against that.

Basically you end up being forced to run the +duration food just to deal any noticeable damage; speccing for hybrid damage does not work well since those that run Melandru + Lemongrass often maximize toughness as well.

Overkillengine.6084:

Trying to kill anyone who refuses to stay and fight as a power spec necro against that combo is pretty futile as well thanks to how slow you are. You have one gap closer that often will not hit in broken terrain (Dark Path). Most of your tools to keep someone engaged are conditions.

So, basically necros in general if the enemy doesn’t want to fight to the death (the necro is there until the end regardless)

Introduction

Just a note, this thread just got merged into this one, so if it seems a little out of place, there’s your reason.

Been meaning to do this for awhile, but this is going to be a short series where I go over what I perceive as fundamentally flawed design gameplay elements to combat.
Namely Condtions, Boons, support and control. As well as offer a few suggestions, and open up to suggestions from other players.
I have little confidence that Arenanet will actually do anything about it, but I might as well make the bloody attempt.

Guild Wars 2 made a lot of innovative decisions, some of which worked out, others, not so much. Unfortunately by trying to make the game more accessible to a wider audience, they dumbed down certain mechanics and eliminated others.
And while yes I would concede that it’s easier to use and get into, it also lacks depth and counter play, compared to Guild Wars.
Conditions and Boons are some of the bigger offenders of this.

-
The Problems

So what is wrong with Conditions?

• 1. Spam.
  Due to the way almost all conditions stack in either duration or intensity, in conjunction with Guild Wars 2 lacking almost any kind of resource mechanic, with the solo exceptions to Fear and Blind (maybe also Chill), there is never any reason not to use you conditions at every available opportunity.
  This makes conditions very spammy and mindless. You never have to think about when or how to use your conditions, rather you simply spam spam spam spam spam them until your blue in the face. For counter play to exist, there have to be situations you do not want to use them, where it is advantageous to save them for when you need them. Rarely is this ever the case.

• 2. Lack of Counter play.
  Partially for the reasons above, but also in addition the way conditions are removed in a very dime a dozen fashion, you don’t have to think about how to deal with conditions. One party applies them, the other removes them, end of transaction.
  Your only options for dealing with most conditions in either to wait and take the damage/effect, or remove them. A few professions such as the Necromancer also have the option to transfer them, or convert into boons (which is functionally identical to removal), however these tend to be the exception rather then the rule.
  It’s a very binary system, either they are on, or they are off, with little in the way of a middle ground such as mitigation.

• 3. Unclear Damage Potential/UI.
  Due to the way Condition Damage works, in conjunction with stacking, it is very difficult at a glance to tell just how much damage you a liable to take from conditions.
  7500 of sudden direct damage would get you back off and reevaluate if you have your wits about you, but 7500 of condition damage, how on earth do you evaluate that?
  And as such many players react poorly to thou situations and cry foul, calling conditions over powered. Where the problem is actually that they had an uniformed choice, and an uninformed choice is not a real choice.
  In order for counter play to exist you need to know your options in addition to having them. And as such you need to be able to decern your situation at a glance.

• 4. Lack of Class Distinction/Differences in Kind.
  Given the spammy nature of condition, and most professions tend to have most conditions, in a very general sense. As a result there is seldom any difference between condition builds between professions, they all tend to function almost identically.
  While this is more of a minor complaint, part of the reason you have different classes in the first places is because of how they differ from others. And currently there is not much in the way of clear differences between profession when it comes to conditions.

• 5. PvE Bosses.
  Again, due to stacking conditions on bosses very very rapidly hit their cap when multiple players are involves, which greatly reduces the amount of damage condition based players can do to players in PvE. It’s a very common complaint, justifiably so.

Possible Solutions

I’m going to be take a lot of inspiration from Guild Wars on this one, because quite frankly, it did conditions and hexes far, far better then conditions in GW2.
Yes, they did have a problem with complexity and too many skills, but depth was certainly not one of it’s problems.

1. Spam
In Guild Wars you couldn’t really spam conditions or hexes, if you used the same condition or hex it would simply reapply if it had a duration equal or longer to the one that was on the target. And so you really had to think about when you wanted to use your skills, as it was more about applying pressure to an enemy, and less about just damage over time.
Mind you stacking does have some great advantages between multiple players….. well, except when world bosses are concerned. But I’ll cover that later.

My idea it to take the best from both these systems, and hybridize it.

• The basic idea is that a single player can only stack a condition as much as that skill or trait allows. Attempting to apply more stacks only refreshes the existing stacks if the duration is equal or longer to the conditions that exist. However multiple players can collectively stack conditions in either stacks or duration.

• So if you were to apply a 10 sec bleed and a 15 sec bleed, you would only get 1 stack of 15 sec bleed. So it would be advantageous to chain one bleed after the other for 25 sec of bleeding.

• If you were to apply 5 stacks of bleeding for 5 sec, and 1 stack for 15 sec, you would end up with 5 stacks in total, 4 stacks for 5 sec, and 1 for 15 sec.

• Each stack of a condition competes with each other for their own stack slot, starting from the bottom working upwards. So if you were to apply 5 stacks or bleeding for 5 sec, then 1 stack for 15 sec, then 3 stacks for 8 sec, there result would be:
  Stack Slot 1 = 15 sec
  Stack Slot 2 & 3 = 8 sec
  Stack Slot 4 & 5 = 5 sec

• However, each player stacks their conditions individually. So if player A stacks 2 bleeds for 15 sec, and player B stacks 3 bleeds for 10 sec, you would have 5 stacks of bleeding on the target, 2 for 15 sec and 3 for 10 sec.

• Conditions that stack only in duration such as Cripple and Chill function similarly. If one player stacks a 10 sec cripple then a 15 sec cripple, the result is only 15 seconds of cripple, as it had the longer duration. However, if player A stacks a 10 sec cripple and player B stacks a 15 sec cripple, the result is a 25 sec cripple on the target.

• Interestingly this system wouldn’t just have to only have conditions that stack in either duration or intensity, but both. Such as having Poison stack in intensity if the skill or trait allows it to, but between players it stacks in duration. For example: Player A applies 2 stacks of 10 sec Poison, and player B applies 1 stack for 15 sec. The result is 2 stacks of Poison, 1 stack for 25 sec and 1 for 10 sec.

• Being able to hybridizes the system would allow for more specialize between professions, such as making the Ranger simply be able to apply more stacks of Poison then other professions, without making them ruin it for other professions by hitting the cap too quickly or making them over powered in the process.

• The damage of Bleeding, Torment and Confusion would probably have to be reworked however. As would Vulnerability, either by increasing the damage percentage given by each stack or the number of stacks any given skill/trait deals.

• Lastly cap size could vary from enemy to enemy, so some bosses or enemies could be weaker to some conditions then others, by simply have a larger cap size. And since each player is ultimately limited in how many stacks they can apply, it would take a lot more players to hit the cap in either case. You could even have traits that reduced how many stacks of certain conditions could apply to you, or even a stat if you want to go there.

2. Counter Play
Counter play is a little trickier, but part of the solution is having conditions in such a way where it isn’t always advantageous to use them at every opportunity, as the above would largely solve.
But the other part is how you deal with the conditions once they have been applied to you.

In GW you had a Pip system, where you would regenerate or degenerate health/energy at a fixed rate per pip, up to 10 pips. (arrows basically) This largely worked because health pools across all professions were the same size, and there was little you could do to increase it. That, and condition damage didn’t exist.
Regeneration and Degeneration had a 1 to 1 ratio. If you had 5 pips of degeneration it could be offset by 5 pips of regeneration. As a result you could mitigate this damage over time with more then just removing the conditions or hexes, which were limited in supply and largely something done by support/healing professions.

If you had a lot degeneration, you could just regenerate and mitigate the damage. Thus, counter play.

-
Here it’s a little more difficult, and it goes heavily into support and boons that I will cover in depth another time, but I have a few ideas.

• First would be to have the Boons function identically to Conditions in how they stack, as listed above. Part of this could be having Regeneration be modular, where an individual player could stack it if the skill or trait allows. Thus allowing the player to increase the amount of health regeneration depending on the situation.

• Having more skills that actively allow you to regenerate separately from the Regeneration boon for a period of time, like Troll Urgency, could also work since most regeneration you have access to is passive, food, signets, runes, traits, etc. But there are very few skills that allow you to regenerate for a set period of time as their basic function. Thou if Regeneration were modular this would probably be moot.

• However, if these regeneration skills were based on positional play, then that would be a horse of a different color. Such as dropping a symbol on the ground and having it heal you, but only if you stand in it. While you can do this now, most symbols tend to only last a few seconds and not be that powerful. If you had area effects that lasted a long time but had a small radius, there would be a lot of positional play with trying to fight in and around it. The trick I think is to have regeneration effects have a very small radius, but long duration. Of course you should only be able to have 1 or 2 of these out at the same time.

• Condition removal on the other hand could stand to be more specific rather then general. Which could lead to some professions being stronger against certain conditions then others, such as having the Ranger be strong against cripple, chill and immobilize, but weaker against say weakness, blind and confusion.

• Part of this could be taking more preemptive measures, such as new Boons that effect Conditions. For example a Boon the reduces incoming damage by a flat rate, say in this case 50 points. For a condition that is dealing damage every second, this would reduce a lot damage, but if you get a single hit for 7500 damage, it would hardly do anything.

• Between having modular regeneration and preemptive boons, a player would have multiple options to deal with conditions besides simply removing them, which could stand to be more scarce, and be more heavily focused on some professions the others, as long as every profession has some way to deal with them.

3.Damage UI
Damage potential I think is an easier fix, and it comes down to UI.
Remember in GW when your health bar changed colors when you got effected with difference conditions/hexes?
Same sort of deal.

When you get effected with a condition, part of your health changes color relative to each condition. (only the damaging conditions)
The amount of your bar that is color changed is exactly proportional to the amount of damage that player would receive if the condition would deal if not removed or mitigated.

For example: You get hit with Burning that does 628 points of damage per second, for 10 seconds. Which would deal 6280 in total if it goes for it full duration.
And so when applied it will turn approx 6280 slice of your health bar bright Orange, and as you take damage that bar will shrink. (turning grey in the process as you have lost health)
See Reference picture.
!http://s18.postimg.org/9elh1o9ih/gw092.jpg!

Multiple conditions would line up underneath each other, each color coded. So if you have 3 or 4 conditions that will deal 15000 points of damage over their duration, then most of your bar if not all of it will show this.

This way at a glance you can see just how much damage you will take from your conditions, and as such act accordingly. On ally windows, same system but designed for the health bar rather then the health orb.

4.Differences in Kind
Class Distinction I already covered this in solution 1 and 2 for the most part.
Having a more modular condition system would allow for some professions to excel in some conditions more then others, and open the door for more hybrid conditions in the future that stack in intensity for individual players, but in duration for multiple players.
Torment could probably fit this role rather well, as would Poison.

Also, as Arenanet have already shown a willingness, having traits the fundamentally change the effects of conditions. However this would also have to have some sort of visual identifier that something is different, that the conditions has been enhanced.
I think they could expand this in interesting directions, such as having bleeding do more damage when the target is moving, like a pseudo torment, or having cripple increase in duration/reapply if a movement skill is used.

What’s coming is a good start, but I think we can go a lot further in making conditions something that can be tailored to the individual players needs.

-
That about all I have on Conditions. At some point I will also cover Boons/Support, and later Control. Next week maybe when I am not so busy working.

Let me know what you think, if I am even within miles of being right about this, or if I am totally full of it or missing something obvious.
Because honestly, I just don’t have fun with conditions, they are a very poor substitute for hexes and conditions from GW, and I pretty much thought that from launch.
I’ve tried to like them, I really have, but I have seen little more then a slew of problems with them, which aren’t being addressed.

But I’m probably bias.

I like your idea, but I think that much more of the game would have to change to make it more balanced in terms of risk/reward.

I would definitely like to see those UI changes you mentiond added to the game though, it would REALLY help in pvp and make it more intresting to actually play as a condi build since you would actually be able to see how much damage you did to your target (vissualy speaking).

coglin.1867:

Every thing you say here defies logic. Pretty much every excuse you listed applies to direct damage.

Got any reasonable examples? For every condi applying skill you claim is poorly broadcast, I can probably give you two direct damage attacks that are as poorly broadcast……If we take your justification for classifying OPness, the direct damage attacks need to be nerfed, cause they are OP

As far as “passive” application? Really?…

congratulations, you have no idea what you’re talking about. you can act as condescending as you please, but it only makes your arguments that much more hilarious.

let me hold your hand through this:
conditions can be applied through aoe spam, autoattack procs, low cast time/cooldown/broadcast skills, rune procs, and more.

this overwhelming access to various forms of rapid application of not only damage but also control such as cripple, chill, and immobilzation leads to an absurd level of pressure both at distance and in close quarters that direct damage could never maintain.

if you’re seriously trying to say that direct damage is equally unavoidable then you’re absolutely full of it. much more of the highly damaging skills that direct damage relies on are very visible and non-spammable to the point where evading them is actually possible. distance alone can protect you often enough.

coglin.1867:

The cry cry cry, wipe my tears and type “one stat” whah whah whah, argument about condition damage is played out bud. Given the fact that you can literally double a condition attack by investing in Condi duration to 100% just proves how illogical and irrational the one stat claim is. Yet you don’t even mention this stat. Odd, you seem so versed in the mechanics that you can tell us what benefit the damage type, yet you fail to mention the stat that increases it so heavily. What does that say about your knowledge on the subject?

As far as the “reapplication” angle, the logic isn’t there. Of course someone can hit you with a skill that applies a condition again. Expecting otherwise is as irrational as complaining that your enemy in a direct damage build just hit you after you blocked him previously. I mean how dare a player do damage after you negated their previous damage right??? How any sane person rationalizes, that it is okay for one damage type to move forward with applying damage to you, and another one is OP for it is just unbelievable. What does that say about your rational on the matter?

again, you’re compensating for what you lack in arguement through attempting to be condescending. it’s cute at this point.

aside from giver’s weapons, you can’t invest in condition duration through gear. it’s impossible. you do this through food, upgrades, and traits/traitlines. all three of which do not require much, if any, specialized tradeoff in most cases; condition duration food increases condi damage as well as do most duration rune sets.

so please, stop acting like the investment into duration is by any means grave, it isn’t.

also, comparing condition reapplication to direct damage like that is comparing apples to oranges. i shouldn’t need explain why.

coglin.1867:

How so? Based on your previous examples, I would venture to guess you do not even know. This is untrue, because of how it functions…

coglin.1867:

So if it is more effective, where is your math on that? …

leaving out details again i see.

inconveniently for you, there’s more to this problem than straight calculations of compared damage, for example condition duration affects non-damaging conditions such as fear/chill/cripple/weakness as well which not only has it’s direct implication of the harm that comes from those conditions but also the fact that condition cleansing becomes harder as pressure is increased. a 10% crit damage increase does not offer this.

coglin.1867:

In what context? At 2200 added condi damage it is only around 850. How do you come to the conclusion that this is too much when I can wear full soldiers gear on my thief and hit for thousands? Heck my engineer basic bomb auto attack hits 5 people in an AoE for 1500+ a piece in soldiers, against 3200 defense. That is 7500 damage with the exact same defense as your beloved “dire” gear.

you just cant do it can you? you just can’t make an argument without using idealized situations at all it seems. how rarely is burning going to be the sole condition applied or source of damage? how do you possibly take into account hitting multiple targets once as the same as hitting one?

it seems your whole plan here is to try to discredit my arguments by throwing around your own poorly thought out dribble and acting like it’s indisputable.

WaraZin.7365:

I like your idea, but I think that much more of the game would have to change to make it more balanced in terms of risk/reward.

I would definitely like to see those UI changes you mentiond added to the game though, it would REALLY help in pvp and make it more intresting to actually play as a condi build since you would actually be able to see how much damage you did to your target (vissualy speaking).

Oh yeah, I hadn’t actually thought of seeing how much it would apply to your target, that’s a great idea. I was only considering how it would effect you and your allies, but I think it would make sense if you could see how much it effected other players.

Because you make different decisions based on how much health your target has, if they are low on life you might ramp up the pressure to kill them off, or persist attacking them longer if you think you have a chance to finish them off.
In this instance I could see you applying a bunch of conditions, seeing that it would eat away half their health then backing off and letting them work rather then continue to expose yourself to more damage.

sinject.4607:

this overwhelming access to various forms of rapid application of not only damage but also control such as cripple, chill, and immobilzation leads to an absurd level of pressure both at distance and in close quarters that direct damage could never maintain.

You know what you described fits my necro power build.

Yoh.8469:

The Problems

So what is wrong with Conditions?

• 1. Spam.
  Due to the way almost all conditions stack in either duration or intensity, in conjunction with Guild Wars 2 lacking almost any kind of resource mechanic, with the solo exceptions to Fear and Blind (maybe also Chill), there is never any reason not to use you conditions at every available opportunity.
  This makes conditions very spammy and mindless. You never have to think about when or how to use your conditions, rather you simply spam spam spam spam spam them until your blue in the face. For counter play to exist, there have to be situations you do not want to use them, where it is advantageous to save them for when you need them. Rarely is this ever the case.

This a problem for both power and conditions build the only difference is that every that with conditions it is a bit more visual.

• 2. Lack of Counter play.
  Partially for the reasons above, but also in addition the way conditions are removed in a very dime a dozen fashion, you don’t have to think about how to deal with conditions. One party applies them, the other removes them, end of transaction.
  Your only options for dealing with most conditions in either to wait and take the damage/effect, or remove them. A few professions such as the Necromancer also have the option to transfer them, or convert into boons (which is functionally identical to removal), however these tend to be the exception rather then the rule.
  It’s a very binary system, either they are on, or they are off, with little in the way of a middle ground such as mitigation.

So you can’t dodge, block, evade, … conditions anymore?

Yoh.8469:

• 3. Unclear Damage Potential/UI.
  Due to the way Condition Damage works, in conjunction with stacking, it is very difficult at a glance to tell just how much damage you a liable to take from conditions.
  7500 of sudden direct damage would get you back off and reevaluate if you have your wits about you, but 7500 of condition damage, how on earth do you evaluate that?
  And as such many players react poorly to thou situations and cry foul, calling conditions over powered. Where the problem is actually that they had an uniformed choice, and an uninformed choice is not a real choice.
  In order for counter play to exist you need to know your options in addition to having them. And as such you need to be able to decern your situation at a glance.

I admit that there is a problem on that part but I believe there is no good UI model for that. Showing all the damage a condition would do is useless since the duration is an important factor (take as an example blood is power, who fears two stacks of bleed).

Yoh.8469:

• 4. Lack of Class Distinction/Differences in Kind.
  Given the spammy nature of condition, and most professions tend to have most conditions, in a very general sense. As a result there is seldom any difference between condition builds between professions, they all tend to function almost identically.
  While this is more of a minor complaint, part of the reason you have different classes in the first places is because of how they differ from others. And currently there is not much in the way of clear differences between profession when it comes to conditions.

I think that this is more important to power builds I mean damage is damage right. In condition they can come in different forms. But after that every class has different ways of application both power and conditions.

• 5. PvE Bosses.
  Again, due to stacking conditions on bosses very very rapidly hit their cap when multiple players are involves, which greatly reduces the amount of damage condition based players can do to players in PvE. It’s a very common complaint, justifiably so.

Nothing to deny here.

Conditions are perceived kitten strong because they deal their harm in a delayed manner (both for damaging and nondamaging conditions).

Ofc, the same people who complain about them conveniently “forget” to talk about their major downside, namely that skills keep recycling while conditions do damage, and that you are still damaging the target (with direct damage, you’d be dead instead).

While I would first note that I don’t see the problem with both spam and removal (there is no removal for direct damage, though you can partially mitigate it, and direct attacks are just as spammy), I do agree that a rework might do some good.

Specifically:

• Make conditions – and boons – much more powerful. Poison should deny healing, period. You don’t heal. Damage would be minor, but no healing. 5-6 stacks of bleeds? You’re probably downed in a few seconds. Crippled? Well good luck getting anywhere. Chilled? Seconds from CDs tick off at 33% the normal speed. Etc. But this goes both ways. Swiftness should be +100% speed at least, maybe +200%. Protection should be -75% damage taken. Aegis blocks an attack full out, cutting a cone out of AE attacks.Regeneration should heal rapidly. And so on.
• Make conditions – and boons – much less common. That poison which shuts down your healing? It lasts 5 seconds, and the CD is 60 seconds. That epidemic? It also gives the Necro all CDs he spreads, stacked for each recipient, plus it has a kitten CD. Perma-Swiftness? Yeah, right. Try 5s every 30-45 seconds, tops, and there’s no group version.
• Condition removal and boon-stripping are extremely rare, and on 2-3 minutes elite skills. These should be pivotal due to how strong conditions/boons are and how long it takes to cycle their CDs.
• Group condition removal doesn’t exist. AE boon stripping doesn’t exist. Conversion of boons/conditions has serious downsides.
• Duration food is capped at 10%. Traits are halved to +15% duration. No other sources of duration modifiers exist.

In other words, conditions and boons become a crucial element of combat. They can and they will make you stop and consider your options.
But in turn, they are rare. Seeing someone put up Protection, Regeneration and Vigor should mean that for 5-8 seconds they are very difficult to kill, but after that you got 45 seconds or so in which you know they can’t re-apply it.

sinject.4607:

let me hold your hand through this:
conditions can be applied through aoe spam, autoattack procs, low cast time/cooldown/broadcast skills, rune procs, and more.

Again, you act as if this is unique to them through dishonest misrepresentation. So what if they can be AoE applied. So can Direct damage. Every profession has an AoE spam direct damage cleave that does more damage then AoE condi attacks.. The list of AoE stuns, blow outs, knock downs, and knock backs in very long.

Every thing you mention here is based on fallacy and you go out of your way to avoid listing specifics, comparisons, and facts. You speak of Low cast times as if that is some mystical unique feature of condition attacks. List me some, and I will list a direct damage attack with the same or faster cast time for each one you list. Broadcast of skills? List the ones flawed that represent your argument. If you think this is an issue specific to condition damage skils, then you are poorly mistaken. Rune procs? Really? We have 66 rune sets in this game. 26 of those effect direct damage or stuns. Only 12 of those effect condition damage in any way. The rest offer boons, buffs or an axillary benefit. As for sigils, 31 effect direct damage, while only 18 effect condition damage or add a condition.

So it is very very clear you are just blurting out your opinion as you perceive it, as if it represented some semblance of fact, rather then checking into it and actually knowing.

sinject.4607:

this overwhelming access to various forms of rapid application of not only damage but also control such as cripple, chill, and immobilzation leads to an absurd level of pressure both at distance and in close quarters that direct damage could never maintain.

So you okay with rapd use of skills that apply direct damage, when we know they do more damage then condi damage skill, and your okay with AoE stuns of all kinds on low cool down, but with Soft CC you not okay. That doesn’t strike me as a balanced thought process.

sinject.4607:

if you’re seriously trying to say that direct damage is equally unavoidable then you’re absolutely full of it. much more of the highly damaging skills that direct damage relies on are very visible and non-spammable to the point where evading them is actually possible. distance alone can protect you often enough.

You are just being dishonest here. We already used the wiki in a recent thread and listed the total number of direct damage skills in the entire game compared to the condition damage skill. There were 30%+ more direct damage skills with a 1/4 sec cast time less then the condition damage ones.

Perhaps you should actually use the wiki and a calculator once and a while before you post.

sinject.4607:

aside from giver’s weapons, you can’t invest in condition duration through gear. it’s impossible. you do this through food, upgrades, and traits/traitlines. all three of which do not require much, if any, specialized tradeoff in most cases; condition duration food increases condi damage as well as do most duration rune sets.

Really? so, Rune of Lyssa, Rune of the Mad King, Rune of the Lich, Rune of the Nightmare, Rune of the Traveler do not offer condition duration now?

sinject.4607:

also, comparing condition reapplication to direct damage like that is comparing apples to oranges. i shouldn’t need explain why.

How so? care to elaborate? Yes, you should need to explain why, because I doubt you know.

Both are attacks that do damage. A attack that does 4s bleed at 1800ish condition damage will do 500ish damage. A direct damage attack that hits for 500 direct damage instantly. In both cases similar damage is applied.

No more damage will be applied either way, untill you swing and connect a hit again, regardless of damage type

Ignore that fact all you like, it doesn’t make it less true.

sinject.4607:

how do you possibly take into account hitting multiple targets once as the same as hitting one?

it is called an AoE. It allows me to kill multiple players of your caliber at the same time. To assist in your understanding, here is a wiki link. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/AoE

sinject.4607:

it seems your whole plan here is to try to discredit my arguments by throwing around your own poorly thought out dribble and acting like it’s indisputable.

Not really. You kind of took care of that all on your own, by making inaccurate claims that a simple count on the wiki disproved, such as your uninformed statements about runes, or sigils.

You probably lose most readers the second you open with things like “spam” and misrepresent it as if it is some how magically unique to conditions. If your not capable of leaving out issues that effect direct damage and condition damage equally, then you either are not familiar enough with game mechanics to be making such claims, or you are displaying a heavy and unreasonable bias.

Hello everyone,

We would like to remind you that every feedback is welcomed on this forum, either positive or negative. Therefore, we’ll ask you to please respect each other’s opinion and debate with polite and constructive arguments.

Thank you for your cooperation

Everything in this game is spammy, not just conditions. DD is spammy, CC is spammy, Boons are spammy, and so is healing.

People just complain about conditions more because they can’t stack armor and ignore them as well as they can power damage.

I’m guessing you guys have never had 20+ seconds of 12 stacks of confusion, or 30+ seconds of torment, or (I’m serious) 60+ seconds of bleed.

Conditions are all short I tell you!

Playing a a condi necro in a ZvZ, I totally disagree. It’ll make a lousy enough already build to play for a necro, into something worthless in pve, worthless in wvw, and only good for pvp.

@zen. Agreed that roaming condi builds are strong, but that’s coz its played pvp style. We have to be good some place: a power build is good in pve, where condi necros are actively avoided.

I’ve also got a guard that I play in wvw and have no probs with conditions in zvz or roaming.

Tim.6450:

• 2. Lack of Counter play.
  Partially for the reasons above, but also in addition the way conditions are removed in a very dime a dozen fashion, you don’t have to think about how to deal with conditions. One party applies them, the other removes them, end of transaction.
  Your only options for dealing with most conditions in either to wait and take the damage/effect, or remove them. A few professions such as the Necromancer also have the option to transfer them, or convert into boons (which is functionally identical to removal), however these tend to be the exception rather then the rule.
  It’s a very binary system, either they are on, or they are off, with little in the way of a middle ground such as mitigation.

So you can’t dodge, block, evade, … conditions anymore?
[/quote]

Mmm, your conflating two different things here, the skills themselves, and conditions.
Yes you have counter play with skills in general, for the most part, whether or not they deal conditions is beside the point.
However once conditions have been applied, there is no counter play.
You either wait or remove them, you have no other options. That was my point.

As to everyone else, yeah there are plenty of other skills that are spammy, and that is also an issue. Just because I don’t bring it up and cry bloody murder doesn’t make my point any less valid. Personally I find that it is just more pronounced in conditions and boons, then direct damage. Thou, not by much.
It’s still a problem that should be dealt with.

In zerg fights, conditions last very shortly because everyone is usually using -40% condi duration food. This is why in large fights it is rare for someone to spec into conditions.
Survival is faar more important in big fights, so that’s why people prefer using -40% condi food that other foods, even players with a class that can put a lot of AoE conditions.
This results in condition ticking for 1-2s at best if they are not cleansed first.
IF they removed (or nerfed) these foods, I believe build diversity would be promoted:
you would not be forced to eat +condi duration food if you are a condi based class;
you would not be forced to eat -condi duration food if you don’t have many cleanses at your disposal;

I play all classes, some of them with a condi spec, and man it’s not even fun to fight against someone who does not use -condi duration food if I have the +condi duration food on me.

Yoh.8469:

Mmm, your conflating two different things here, the skills themselves, and conditions.
Yes you have counter play with skills in general, for the most part, whether or not they deal conditions is beside the point.
However once conditions have been applied, there is no counter play.
You either wait or remove them, you have no other options. That was my point.

So that is the same with power once the hit has landed the damage is done (damaging conditions suffer the existances of cleanses).

Yoh.8469:

However once conditions have been applied, there is no counter play.
You either wait or remove them, you have no other options. That was my point.

Hey, this is one more option than against direct damage!

Yoh.8469:

However once conditions have been applied, there is no counter play.
You either wait or remove them, you have no other options. That was my point.

You have 3 options cleanse, wait, heal through the damage if it is a damaging condition.

Yoh.8469:

Tim.6450:

• 2. Lack of Counter play.
  Partially for the reasons above, but also in addition the way conditions are removed in a very dime a dozen fashion, you don’t have to think about how to deal with conditions. One party applies them, the other removes them, end of transaction.
  Your only options for dealing with most conditions in either to wait and take the damage/effect, or remove them. A few professions such as the Necromancer also have the option to transfer them, or convert into boons (which is functionally identical to removal), however these tend to be the exception rather then the rule.
  It’s a very binary system, either they are on, or they are off, with little in the way of a middle ground such as mitigation.

So you can’t dodge, block, evade, … conditions anymore?

Mmm, your conflating two different things here, the skills themselves, and conditions.
Yes you have counter play with skills in general, for the most part, whether or not they deal conditions is beside the point.
However once conditions have been applied, there is no counter play.
You either wait or remove them, you have no other options. That was my point.

Well this is false, just like Direct damage, you have counter play.
If I dont want to be hit by signet of spite, i dodge, blind, or become invulnerable, and at worst i cleanse and heal.
If I dont want to be hit by a eviscerate I dodge, blind, or become invulnerable, and at worst I heal.

If i get hit by a direct damage attack, i have no choice but to heal depending on the damage done, i may even die half a second later.

Explain to me how you can stop a direct damaging attack from doing it’s full damage over time?

If a condition stay’s on you for a full duration, it does it’s full damage
While if a direct attack hits you
It does it’s full damage

As to everyone else, yeah there are plenty of other skills that are spammy, and that is also an issue. Just because I don’t bring it up and cry bloody murder doesn’t make my point any less valid. Personally I find that it is just more pronounced in conditions and boons, then direct damage. Thou, not by much.
It’s still a problem that should be dealt with.

What?!

So getting hit for 5k from a backstab is less pronounced then getting hit for 5k because you let someone stack 5 different conditions on you? and let them tick over time?!

This makes perfect sense.

The flaw is the mentality that you should have everything and be able to fight everything in 1 build, self sustaining and that your team doesn’t matter. Most people that don’t like conditions are solo roamers or duelers in WvW.

When the patch hits on the 15th people won’t be so bored and we can all argue over new things.

Carighan.6758:

Yoh.8469:

However once conditions have been applied, there is no counter play.
You either wait or remove them, you have no other options. That was my point.

Hey, this is one more option than against direct damage!

Thank you to the folks who are fighting against this unreasonable “spam” attitude towards conditions. Every time someone says they are spammy, I’m sent reeling. It’s like they think direct damage doesn’t follow the same definition of “spammy”.

And timing your condi clears/transfers/conversions/consumes/whatever is very much an aspect of counter-play. If you don’t bring the tools to manage conditions and thus have no other counter-play then “wait it out” or “dodge/block/blind/evade/invuln the condi application”, then that’s your fault. Dodge/Block/Blind/Evade/Invuln is the standard way to mitigate both condi application and direct damage. With direct damage, you can also use boons like Prot to help mitigate the incoming damage. With conditions, you can cleanse/transfer/convert them.

It’s a balancing act. Always has been.

I’m intrigued by the idea of making conditions much more rare and more impactful, but I’d be concerned that the weapons would potentially get homogenized. At the same time as this change, though, I’d love to see condition damage be removed from the game, along with critical damage. If we’re going to throw the entire game kitten-over-teakettles, I’d love to add some other elements that remove the idea that “you gear for it or it’s basically useless” to make other support options potentially more appealing. Naturally it would require a complete and total rebalance, but if it’s already being completely and totally rebalanced, that’s just something I’d like to see experimented with. They could even leave crit dmg and condi dmg as part of trait lines that you can’t gear for, kind of like how condi duration is now.

But I digress. Condis aren’t spammy, but I have enjoyed thinking about the implications of Carighan’s idea.

Also yes, conditions are fundamentally flawed in PvE. It must have been something they thought they would “design out” when it comes to encounters by adding other objectives/mobs/etc. instead of one big baddy, but encounters like the the red/blue/green knights at the end of the Scarlet arc beg to differ. Heck, they even had periodic immunities to condis. I was almost appalled at the “lol you don’t get to do this with your build” mentality that brought to the table, and I play a Power spec. I think it hit harder because I decided to swap back to Condis to mess around the first time I fought them, then realized I was completely useless. Felt good, man.

oZii.2864:

The flaw is the mentality that you should have everything and be able to fight everything in 1 build, self sustaining and that your team doesn’t matter. Most people that don’t like conditions are solo roamers or duelers in WvW.

That’s a good point, why do so many people want to be fully self-sufficient?
It runs counter-intuitive to the idea of classes and specs. “Specializations”. It’s in the name. You can’t be self-sufficient to an “It all depends on player skill”-degree if you want meaningful classes and most importantly specs within those classes.

But then, why would you need to?

None of the game modes in any way, shape or form encourage small-scale combat. Even sPvP encourages you to group up with as many people as possible, as often as possible, and ideally so that the enemy isn’t grouped up. And in both PvE and WvW, the urge to group up is much stronger – naturally so, as superior numbers is a very good first and second line of battle strategy.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not really complaining about not being able to fight condition builds. They are easy enough to counter like direct dps but you just have to build directly to counter them.

I am merely bring up the idea of separating Soft CC from damage dealing conditions. I was curious if that would be worth looking into or would it just cause further problems. Just like Stun, Daze and Knockbacks are different than immobilze and freeze. I could see where in some cases an immobilize would be more deadly than a burn but the immobilize isnt going to be the cause of your death.

Hi everyone,

We’re compiling the feedback regarding Conditions. We’d like to remind you to remain respectful to both our staff and to each other. Please keep your feedback constructive. Here’s a link which outlines how to give good feedback.

Thank you.

hihey.1075:

In zerg fights, conditions last very shortly because everyone is usually using -40% condi duration food. This is why in large fights it is rare for someone to spec into conditions.
Survival is faar more important in big fights, so that’s why people prefer using -40% condi food that other foods, even players with a class that can put a lot of AoE conditions.
This results in condition ticking for 1-2s at best if they are not cleansed first.
IF they removed (or nerfed) these foods, I believe build diversity would be promoted:
you would not be forced to eat +condi duration food if you are a condi based class;
you would not be forced to eat -condi duration food if you don’t have many cleanses at your disposal;

I play all classes, some of them with a condi spec, and man it’s not even fun to fight against someone who does not use -condi duration food if I have the +condi duration food on me.

I run my warrior with melandru…plus -40 condi duration food…plus remove condi’s on adrenaline use, plus the cripple immobilize reduction….combined with healing signet and stances….good luck keeping condi’s on a warrior in a group…lol

Tibstrike.2974:

Laylie.5703:

Junkpile.7439:

You don’t even need these foods in www. Conditions doesn’t tic more than couple sec anyways.

WUT

I’m sure he is referencing the fact that in zerg battles, the condition clears are pretty constant and most conditions, besides immobilize, are cleared before they do significant damage.

This is not the case while roaming where the condition meta is still dominant, and seems to only be getting stronger as time passes on.

If folks are saying conditions are not effective in a zerg i think it hasnt be studied properly as many condition makers like guardians can near constantly reapply conditions as quickly as they are taken off. In a zerg battle the condition mentality must not be duration but speed of reapplication.

Gamadorn.2670:

hihey.1075:

In zerg fights, conditions last very shortly because everyone is usually using -40% condi duration food. This is why in large fights it is rare for someone to spec into conditions.
Survival is faar more important in big fights, so that’s why people prefer using -40% condi food that other foods, even players with a class that can put a lot of AoE conditions.
This results in condition ticking for 1-2s at best if they are not cleansed first.
IF they removed (or nerfed) these foods, I believe build diversity would be promoted:
you would not be forced to eat +condi duration food if you are a condi based class;
you would not be forced to eat -condi duration food if you don’t have many cleanses at your disposal;

I play all classes, some of them with a condi spec, and man it’s not even fun to fight against someone who does not use -condi duration food if I have the +condi duration food on me.

I run my warrior with melandru…plus -40 condi duration food…plus remove condi’s on adrenaline use, plus the cripple immobilize reduction….combined with healing signet and stances….good luck keeping condi’s on a warrior in a group…lol

Doesn’t using many skills and or traits that are designed or part designed for combating conditions mean you are sacrificing skills and traits that make your dps better.

joneb.5679:

Gamadorn.2670:

hihey.1075:

In zerg fights, conditions last very shortly because everyone is usually using -40% condi duration food. This is why in large fights it is rare for someone to spec into conditions.
Survival is faar more important in big fights, so that’s why people prefer using -40% condi food that other foods, even players with a class that can put a lot of AoE conditions.
This results in condition ticking for 1-2s at best if they are not cleansed first.
IF they removed (or nerfed) these foods, I believe build diversity would be promoted:
you would not be forced to eat +condi duration food if you are a condi based class;
you would not be forced to eat -condi duration food if you don’t have many cleanses at your disposal;

I play all classes, some of them with a condi spec, and man it’s not even fun to fight against someone who does not use -condi duration food if I have the +condi duration food on me.

I run my warrior with melandru…plus -40 condi duration food…plus remove condi’s on adrenaline use, plus the cripple immobilize reduction….combined with healing signet and stances….good luck keeping condi’s on a warrior in a group…lol

Doesn’t using many skills and or traits that are designed or part designed for combating conditions mean you are sacrificing skills and traits that make your dps better.

It’s only two traits total and makes you almost immune to condi’s. My attack is 3450 and with my crit chance and crit dmg a little over 40%. As well as armor above 3k and 25k life. Could I get higher crit and more dps without those traits….sure…but IMO there is a balance between survivability in prolonged outnumbered engagements and DPS out put. In sPvP I would opt more on the damage side as you said, but in WvW if we are taking on map blobs, I’ll sacrifice a little DPS to survive a little longer when outnumbered…which IMO ultimately increase you’re overall damage if you survive longer and don’t become a rally bot…

If I hadnt’ made my guardian a healer/support I would have experimented with the ability to apply and fast reapply burning to his dps. Spent my gold on all his gear now.

Kincaidia.3192:

I’m guessing you guys have never had 20+ seconds of 12 stacks of confusion, or 30+ seconds of torment, or (I’m serious) 60+ seconds of bleed.

Conditions are all short I tell you!

If you have a single stack of bleed on you for 60 seconds, I think the problem is with you more than the conditions. Not trying to be snarky, just honest.

Conditions do need a change though.

hopefully condi thread will stay alive so the devs can fix this broken kitten.

joneb.5679:

Tibstrike.2974:

Laylie.5703:

Junkpile.7439:

You don’t even need these foods in www. Conditions doesn’t tic more than couple sec anyways.

WUT

I’m sure he is referencing the fact that in zerg battles, the condition clears are pretty constant and most conditions, besides immobilize, are cleared before they do significant damage.

This is not the case while roaming where the condition meta is still dominant, and seems to only be getting stronger as time passes on.

If folks are saying conditions are not effective in a zerg i think it hasnt be studied properly as many condition makers like guardians can near constantly reapply conditions as quickly as they are taken off. In a zerg battle the condition mentality must not be duration but speed of reapplication.

What you just blurted out tells me you have not fought against a properly built group comp that can pretty much nullify incoming condition applications.

Without using the -duration food or runes.

Hint: They commit the apparently unforgivable sin of trading in dps maximizing skills and traits for ones that help with condition management, being sure in the knowledge that staying up and cleansed is better effective dps than the builds people put together with no condition management tools included but all the shiny damage boosters that do zip while they are tasting dirt.