Guild Wars 2

Niether: I kill them first :p

In seriousness, though, it’s usually heartseeker that kills me. The backstab puts a significant amount of damage on me, but I’ve got a very high EHP. It is actually the 1k autos that do most of the job, because I’m built to heavily resist burst, then Heartseeker to finish me off.

So yes, it is the sustained damage rather than the avoidable burst (though backstab and other stealth attacks are the least avoidable burst due to no telegraph) that does most of the work. The sustained damage that is limitless in application does most of the work.

This is true regardless of what build I’m running on my necro. I run Knight’s gear on my power build and a Rabid/Dire mix on my condition build. In both cases, I am very resilient to burst damage, so I very rarely die to actual burst.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The sustained damage that is limitless in application does most of the work.

I’m glad that we can agree that conditions are too strong in their current state and should be nerfed.

Flytrap.8075:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The sustained damage that is limitless in application does most of the work.

I’m glad that we can agree that conditions are too strong in their current state and should be nerfed.

Thief dagger is a condition weapon now? Hold the presses, everyone, Thieves have been building wrong since launch. They should be running Rabid gear in those D/X builds!

“sustained damage”=/= “condition damage”. All condition damage is sustained, but not all sustained damage is conditions. For example, Ranger weapons are all primarily direct damage and can put out a constant stream of damage without much in the way of burst ability. This is sustained damage that is limitless in application, but condition cleanses are 100% ineffective against it (keep in mind that only one ranger auto can apply damaging conditions, and that is position-reliant).

If you die to someone with a burst build, but you avoided their burst, what killed you? Are you seriously going to say “their burst?” No, it was their sustained damage that they could put out, primarily through auto-attacks. Just because you avoided their burst does not mean they are totally without offensive ability now; it just means their offense is lower than before. They could spread out the skills involved in their burst and make them much harder to avoid, but that gives you far more opportunity to kill them before they kill you.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

All condition damage is sustained

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The sustained damage that is limitless in application does most of the work.

Interesting.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If you die to someone with a burst build, but you avoided their burst, what killed you? Are you seriously going to say “their burst?”

Trick question: you don’t die, they do.

Flytrap.8075:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

All condition damage is sustained

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The sustained damage that is limitless in application does most of the work.

Interesting.

And of course no power builds have an auto attack which is also by any logical definition sustained damage as well. Or other smaller spammable attacks outside of big hitters.

You’d retain a lot more credibility in your complaints if you weren’t so desperate to cherry pick.

Thinking on DPS tests for dire vs. soldiers, there is one small problem of debatable importance, which is the existence of poison and burning. DPS tests assume that all dodges affect all damage equally and are thus negligible, which is perfectly true in the case of stack conditions, but potentially incorrect for conditions that stack in duration. Depending on the method of applications, burning and poison can be maintained perfectly regardless of dodges, so long as it is reapplied every once in a while or has sufficient duration. For example, while dodging an engineer’s bleed or confusion stacks will reduce his DPS with those conditions by an equivalent amount to power attacks, it will not affect his DPS with burning at all so long as he can proc incendiary ammo soon enough to keep it up.

Not sure how much that would actually affect condi DPS tests at all, but something to think about for sure, as is the fact that I got a Dire ascended chest from a PvP chest and now have to make my engi condi regardless of my feelings on the matter.
On the bright side I’m going to be doing a lot more PvP.

Flytrap.8075:

It blows my mind that there are people out there who think conditions are either A). Perfectly fine or B). Need to be buffed.

It’s called condi-cheese for a reason.

Translation:
" I put nothing into my build to counter conditions. I die very often. There for conditions are cheese. "

Overkillengine.6084:

And of course no power builds have an auto attack which is also by any logical definition sustained damage as well. Or other smaller spammable attacks outside of big hitters.

You’d retain a lot more credibility in your complaints if you weren’t so desperate to cherry pick.

If you’re playing against a Shatter Mesmer and you dodge their Mind Wrack, are you honestly going to tell me that you’ll die to their auto-attacks?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Translation:
" I put nothing into my build to counter conditions. I die very often. There for conditions are cheese. "

Translation: I realize that every single serious WvW player invests heavily in condition removal, yet the majority of them still complain about how conditions are OP and they should be nerfed, so I’m going to pretend as if it’s a l2play issue so that my favorite build doesn’t get nerfed.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Thinking on DPS tests for dire vs. soldiers, there is one small problem of debatable importance, which is the existence of poison and burning. DPS tests assume that all dodges affect all damage equally and are thus negligible, which is perfectly true in the case of stack conditions, but potentially incorrect for conditions that stack in duration. Depending on the method of applications, burning and poison can be maintained perfectly regardless of dodges, so long as it is reapplied every once in a while or has sufficient duration. For example, while dodging an engineer’s bleed or confusion stacks will reduce his DPS with those conditions by an equivalent amount to power attacks, it will not affect his DPS with burning at all so long as he can proc incendiary ammo soon enough to keep it up.

Not sure how much that would actually affect condi DPS tests at all, but something to think about for sure, as is the fact that I got a Dire ascended chest from a PvP chest and now have to make my engi condi regardless of my feelings on the matter.
On the bright side I’m going to be doing a lot more PvP.

It will absolutely affect the Engi’s DPS if you happen to avoid/nullify the attack the Burn proc was riding on; thus putting the proc back on cooldown with no applied effect. (depending on duration vs cooldown)

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Thinking on DPS tests for dire vs. soldiers, there is one small problem of debatable importance, which is the existence of poison and burning. DPS tests assume that all dodges affect all damage equally and are thus negligible, which is perfectly true in the case of stack conditions, but potentially incorrect for conditions that stack in duration. Depending on the method of applications, burning and poison can be maintained perfectly regardless of dodges, so long as it is reapplied every once in a while or has sufficient duration. For example, while dodging an engineer’s bleed or confusion stacks will reduce his DPS with those conditions by an equivalent amount to power attacks, it will not affect his DPS with burning at all so long as he can proc incendiary ammo soon enough to keep it up.

Not sure how much that would actually affect condi DPS tests at all, but something to think about for sure, as is the fact that I got a Dire ascended chest from a PvP chest and now have to make my engi condi regardless of my feelings on the matter.
On the bright side I’m going to be doing a lot more PvP.

Poisn and Burning do throw some interesting wrenches into the mix, but they are also a case where the condition user can actually limit their own damage output due to the stack limit. For example, if a necro scepter auto chain goes through 11 rotations with Lingering Curse and +100% poison duration, the 11th poison application never takes place. This is accounting for the time of the first stack to run its course as we build to the 9 stack limit.

Overkillengine.6084:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Thinking on DPS tests for dire vs. soldiers, there is one small problem of debatable importance, which is the existence of poison and burning. DPS tests assume that all dodges affect all damage equally and are thus negligible, which is perfectly true in the case of stack conditions, but potentially incorrect for conditions that stack in duration. Depending on the method of applications, burning and poison can be maintained perfectly regardless of dodges, so long as it is reapplied every once in a while or has sufficient duration. For example, while dodging an engineer’s bleed or confusion stacks will reduce his DPS with those conditions by an equivalent amount to power attacks, it will not affect his DPS with burning at all so long as he can proc incendiary ammo soon enough to keep it up.

Not sure how much that would actually affect condi DPS tests at all, but something to think about for sure, as is the fact that I got a Dire ascended chest from a PvP chest and now have to make my engi condi regardless of my feelings on the matter.
On the bright side I’m going to be doing a lot more PvP.

It will absolutely affect the Engi’s DPS if you happen to avoid/nullify the attack the Burn proc was riding on; thus putting the proc back on cooldown with no applied effect. (depending on duration vs cooldown)

If the duration/CD ratio is stacked enough the burning DPS won’t be affected at all. For example, Drake’s breath can inflict twelve seconds of burning every 7.25 seconds with no CDR or added duration. With as little as 21% bonus duration, a full drake’s breath could be avoided with no loss in burning damage so long as every odd-numbered drake’s breath hits.
Again, probably negligible but still something to consider.

Flytrap.8075:

I realize that every single serious WvW player invests heavily in condition removal, yet the majority of them still complain about how conditions are OP and they should be nerfed, so I’m going to pretend as if it’s a l2play issue so that my favorite build doesn’t get nerfed.

They do? You have evidence of this or are you simply making another unfounded claim? As the forum posters probably only represent 5% of the community, and only .001% of those post about the subject, and 50% of those say there is nothing wrong with them. Then I find it hard to understand how you suggest “most” people have a problem with them, when in fact the numerical count stands strongly against you. 99.999% have never officially complained about them in the least.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Flytrap.8075:

I realize that every single serious WvW player invests heavily in condition removal, yet the majority of them still complain about how conditions are OP and they should be nerfed, so I’m going to pretend as if it’s a l2play issue so that my favorite build doesn’t get nerfed.

They do? You have evidence of this or are you simply making another unfounded claim? As the forum posters probably only represent 5% of the community, and only .001% of those post about the subject, and 50% of those say there is nothing wrong with them. Then I find it hard to understand how you suggest “most” people have a problem with them, when in fact the numerical count stands strongly against you. 99.999% have never officially complained about them in the least.

75% of statistics are made up on the spot.

In all seriousness, why do you think that Shout Guardians / Warriors are a thing in Hammer trains? Why do Commanders invest heavily in Melandru runes and the ridiculously overpriced Lemongrass Poultry food? Why do you see so many roamers refer to condition builds as condi-cheese?

If conditions were all fine and dandy, this thread wouldn’t exist.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Translation:
" I put nothing into my build to counter conditions. I die very often. There for conditions are cheese. "

Speaking of unfounded claims

Flytrap, please take a step back and rethink your drink. Conditions are strong, yes. I bring Plague Signet and OH Dagger to help me manage conditions in the back-and-forth of the fight as a Power spec. Here’s the thing:

If conditions did no damage, I’d still bring the extra condition control. If Bleed, Torment, Poison, and Burning weren’t a thing, I’d still bring the condition control to manage Immob, Cripple, Chill, Weakness, and Blind.

GW2 does an interesting thing in wrapping up all control effects (besides stun) into a category that can be managed/transferred by various abilities. Saying “conditions are strong” is an intensely vague statement. Yeah, they ARE strong. Control is strong. Damage is strong.

The kicker, though, is that I bring two utilities to counter direct damage. Direct damage is a much more constant thread, whereas conditions are much more a game of double-dutch timings. You need to withstand an onslaught of direct damage, but for most of the game, you just need to know when to drop/transfer the conditions you have.

Again, here is the argument: condition application is often spread almost evenly among various abilities. Two stacks of bleed here, there, there, everywhere. Dodging these abilities is arguably not worth it, but that means you’re just constantly taking these bits of damage. Death by a thousand cuts, built up over time.

But… that’s what it’s supposed to be. Duration values in WvW get blown out of proportion, but it still remains the case that as a solo roamer, you need to be able to control conditions. I see Warriors who only use Zerker’s Stance to try to counter conditions. All I do is buy time while that’s up, then kite them forever with chill/cripple/immob. That has nothing to do with bleed/burn/poison/torment damage in Dire gear.

It has everything to do with a player not being prepared to take on a certain situation.

Back up off of the tiny semantic arguments and attempts at taking singular statements out of context and try to approach the argument from a different angle. Even at that angle, I don’t see a problem, but I feel like you can at least argue it (which plays into Carighan’s point about having fewer conditions that are more impactful, which would make well-timed dodges/blocks/blinds more impactful against conditions).

Flytrap.8075:

Why do Commanders invest heavily in Melandru runes and the ridiculously overpriced Lemongrass Poultry food?

Melandru runes limit enemy hammer trains effectiveness as well. In addition, they, plus the Lemongrass limit the duration of cripple, weakness, chill, and fear even more. These are about maximizing DPS uptime rather than dealing with damage. Fear and Chill are usually short enough duration that they don’t get cleansed by the shout spam, so this limits their duration to minimize their effect.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Melandru runes limit enemy hammer trains effectiveness as well. In addition, they, plus the Lemongrass limit the duration of cripple, weakness, chill, and fear even more. These are about maximizing DPS uptime rather than dealing with damage.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I see Warriors who only use Zerker’s Stance to try to counter conditions. All I do is buy time while that’s up, then kite them forever with chill/cripple/immob. That has nothing to do with bleed/burn/poison/torment damage in Dire gear.

I don’t understand why you think my issue is with just damaging conditions; it’s conditions in general. If I had to rank the conditions based on which is the deadliest, I’d place Immobilize at the top of the list.

My arguments are not based on semantics (I don’t think you know what this word means) but I will concede that they can be nitpicky. However, that’s a direct result of the logical flaws in your own statements.

Conditions are fine, you just need to bring condition removal. I do. Everyone I know does.

Conditions are fine, you’re just not bringing enough condition removal; this warrior only brought Berserker Stance!. All of the Warriors that I personally group with trait for Dogged March and Cleansing Ire as well, but that’s beside the point.

Conditions are fine, you’re complaining about the damage when the control brought by chill/immobilize/cripple is what’s really killing you. I have a problem with conditions in general, and honestly, I don’t see how this train of thought even helps your argument.

Conditions are fine, their pressure is spread out across a few skills and you can always dodge if your removal is down. I could dodge all of your key moves and spread the usage of my condition removal, and no matter how well I play, you’ll just continue to apply more. The pressure is constant because all condition builds have access to unlimited application while condition removal is finite; condition builds are incredibly spammy in nature.

It’s clear that everyone is set in their opinions, so I guess we’ll have to wait and see what ANet does with all of the feedback they’re getting.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post999247

Warrior

We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions.

Dev philosophy is for warriors to be weak to conditions. Yet they even added cleansing ire.

Your warrior tears feed the angels in heaven.

BTW. No one takes you seriously when your a hammer stun spammer, and you call conditions spammy.

Flytrap.8075:

Conditions are fine, their pressure is spread out across a few skills and you can always dodge if your removal is down. I could dodge all of your key moves and spread the usage of my condition removal, and no matter how well I play, you’ll just continue to apply more. The pressure is constant because all condition builds have access to unlimited application while condition removal is finite; condition builds are incredibly spammy in nature.

How are direct damage builds any less spammy? If I dodge all of your key moves, you’ll just continue to apply more damage. The pressure is constant because all power builds have access to unlimited application while avoidance and healing (which also work well against conditions) are finite.

Seriously, not one of your arguments can’t be equally applied to Power builds. How you think one is fine, but the other is not is beyond me.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Flytrap.8075:

Conditions are fine, their pressure is spread out across a few skills and you can always dodge if your removal is down. I could dodge all of your key moves and spread the usage of my condition removal, and no matter how well I play, you’ll just continue to apply more. The pressure is constant because all condition builds have access to unlimited application while condition removal is finite; condition builds are incredibly spammy in nature.

How are direct damage builds any less spammy? If I dodge all of your key moves, you’ll just continue to apply more damage. The pressure is constant because all power builds have access to unlimited application while avoidance and healing (which also work well against conditions) are finite.

Seriously, not one of your arguments can’t be equally applied to Power builds. How you think one is fine, but the other is not is beyond me.

How can you honestly sit there and tell me that if you dodge a Shatter Mesmer’s burst that they’ll bring you down with their auto-attacks? How will a D/D Thief kill you if you continually dodge their backstabs?

Yeah, auto-attacks deal damage. However, these builds aren’t killing you with with sustained damage; the burst is doing all of the real work.

dancingmonkey.4902:

BTW. No one takes you seriously when your a hammer stun spammer, and you call conditions spammy.

My Warrior is level 31 so I don’t understand how this is relevant.

Flytrap.8075:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Flytrap.8075:

Conditions are fine, their pressure is spread out across a few skills and you can always dodge if your removal is down. I could dodge all of your key moves and spread the usage of my condition removal, and no matter how well I play, you’ll just continue to apply more. The pressure is constant because all condition builds have access to unlimited application while condition removal is finite; condition builds are incredibly spammy in nature.

How are direct damage builds any less spammy? If I dodge all of your key moves, you’ll just continue to apply more damage. The pressure is constant because all power builds have access to unlimited application while avoidance and healing (which also work well against conditions) are finite.

Seriously, not one of your arguments can’t be equally applied to Power builds. How you think one is fine, but the other is not is beyond me.

How can you honestly sit there and tell me that if you dodge a Shatter Mesmer’s burst that they’ll bring you down with their auto-attacks? How will a D/D Thief kill you if you continually dodge their backstabs?

Yeah, auto-attacks deal damage. However, these builds aren’t killing you with with sustained damage; the burst is doing all of the real work.

Because the burst isn’t doing all the real work. It’s just compressing ~3 seconds of damage into…well, 3 seconds.

Thief dagger auto hits for about 1k per hit, hitting a full cycle (3 hits) in about 1.5 seconds. This leads to 6k damage dealt in 3 seconds, or 2k DPS. Backstab takes stealth to set up, plus time to get around behind me. That takes about 3 seconds on average for a 6k hit. Same damage dealt in the same time frame, one is just a bit safer to execute at the cost of putting skills on cooldown.

Mesmer shatter burst dodged. Great, you dodged one burst. What about the second that they can trigger in less than a second (Mirror Images/Deceptive Evasion, Shatter)? How about the damage they deal with the Blurred Frenzy after you dodge the second burst? The new Illusionary Duelist they just spawned on you? Mesmers are extremely capable of repeated bursting and strong sustained damage after that. It may not come from their auto-attacks, but it is still quite relevant.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Thief dagger auto hits for about 1k per hit, hitting a full cycle (3 hits) in about 1.5 seconds. This leads to 6k damage dealt in 3 seconds, or 2k DPS. Backstab takes stealth to set up, plus time to get around behind me. That takes about 3 seconds on average for a 6k hit. Same damage dealt in the same time frame, one is just a bit safer to execute at the cost of putting skills on cooldown.

My guild has a custom sPvP arena that we use to duel each other and learn more about specific builds.

I invite you to roll a thief and duel my necromancer; if your argument is correct, you should have no problem killing me with auto-attacks alone.

I’ll be on in an hour or so

So your going to sit here and spam the thread because you and a few players you know “feel” conditions are OP?

Do you have any comparative evidence that conditions are any more or less powerful at CC or damage then direct damage?

No, I suck at thief. Played necro too long, so I’m not used to having damage avoidance.

And I don’t recall I ever stated “auto attacks alone” did the job. Nobody ever uses autos alone, regardless of build. I stated that the sustained damage they offered did a lot of the work, not that they alone did everything. Again, regardless of build or profession, this is true.

Flytrap.8075:

Conditions are fine, their pressure is spread out across a few skills and you can always dodge if your removal is down. I could dodge all of your key moves and spread the usage of my condition removal, and no matter how well I play, you’ll just continue to apply more. The pressure is constant because all condition builds have access to unlimited application while condition removal is finite; condition builds are incredibly spammy in nature.

At least you’ve proven that you aren’t trying to read the posts of others, as you misconstrued an argument I’ve presented in defense of your stance that Conditions are “spammy”. Conditions are more difficult to judge when to dodge in some cases because in many cases, the number of bleeds is distributed fairly evenly between all skills in a chain. When you spread damage evenly across 5 abilities, dodging 2 of them has much less impact than if 80% of the damage is in 1 ability and you dodge that.

But are you really arguing that the skill-based builds are those where you can just dodge a single combo/attack and basically be on easy-street against it? Is that what it means to be a good player to you? To land/dodge one attack?

My Power build has multiple forms of pressure:

Dagger #1
Immob + Focus #4
Axe #2
DS #1
DS #4

Dodge one, I have another to use. Dodge that, I have yet another. Is my build spammy because I just keep attacking and switching up the form of pressure based on the current situation?

Also, if damage conditions aren’t the most dangerous, you’re entering the realm of “less available conditions” like Chill/Immob. I have two forms of Immobilize, and both are very easy to dodge in general. I have two main forms of Chill, and both are obvious and easy to dodge.

You must be thinking of very specific situations/builds, or you just don’t want to feel very pressured in a fight if you make a good dodge or two. Sometimes against Shatter Mesmers, they’ll try their combo, I’ll dodge the immob, and they’ll just sort of turn and run when the full shatter combo fails, like they had no back-up plan besides the one combo they rely on to kill 80% of players.

A good player will already be thinking of plans B, C, and D if you decide to dodge plan A. Average players rely on plan A because it’s super high burst and is highly effective against many players.

But at the end of the day, Power builds keep applying pressure. Condi builds keep applying pressure. Pressure is the name of the game, and there are two forms of it that serve different purposes and have different amounts of effectiveness against various classes/builds.

I’m open to the idea that conditions are too strong, but what are you arguing they change exactly? Do you want the +/- 40% duration foods changed in WvW? Because so do I. Do you want the entire nature of the system changed? Because that probably isn’t going to happen, even if some good ideas have floated around.

It really just sounds like you don’t want to put as much into countering conditions as you do, when you probably don’t realize all the ways you look to counter power as well. I’m not sure though anymore.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Do you have any comparative evidence that conditions are any more or less powerful at CC or damage then direct damage?

Do you have any evidence that states otherwise? It’s a two-way street.

What relation do warrior, thief, guardian and mesmer have with conditions?

Absolutely,

None.!!

Once and for all,

return conditions to their master: necromancer, ranger and engineer.

Well I do have a feeling conditions is better at cc than direct dmg, but I can be wrong….

Let me see,

3 k direct dmg versus chill,
3 k direct dmg vs, cripple,
3k direct dmg vs, immobilize,
3k direct dmg vs, blind

an have a feeling the direct dmg is a bit off in this matter.

Flytrap.8075:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Do you have any comparative evidence that conditions are any more or less powerful at CC or damage then direct damage?

Do you have any evidence that states otherwise? It’s a two-way street.

Numeric, theoretical, logical, and anecdotal evidence have already been presented by the “pro-condition” side. Only anecdotal has been presented by the side making the claim that conditions are OP.

As you are making the initial claim (conditions are too strong), the responsibility rests on you to provide the evidence.

Note that “you” refers to any person making the same claim, not necessarily you specifically, Flytrap.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Numeric, theoretical, logical, and anecdotal evidence have already been presented by the “pro-condition” side. Only anecdotal has been presented by the side making the claim that conditions are OP.

I wouldn’t go that far.

If this was an open-and-shut case and the verdict was that conditions are absolutely fine and don’t need any changes, this thread would not be almost 15 pages long and I wouldn’t be here in the first place.

Your logical arguments are filled with fallacies and anecdotal experiences that I have already pointed out to no avail. As I stated earlier, it’s clear that everyone here is set in their opinions and I’m interested to see what ANet ends up doing with all of this feedback.

I suggest you take a look at this thread… you might find it interesting. (Spoilers: The anti-condi side wins).

P.S. – I like how the two main people who keep quote-warring me have Necromancers in their signatures

Flytrap.8075:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Do you have any comparative evidence that conditions are any more or less powerful at CC or damage then direct damage?

Do you have any evidence that states otherwise? It’s a two-way street.

A) Yes. A damage comparison spread sheet posted by GK. As well as several videos posted in the last 3 months on the other threads on this topic.

B) So what your saying is your going ot make uninformed accusations and offer no proof. Check.

Perplexity runes have been a sticking point in everyone’s side. They offer an uncommon condition very readily, and boost said condition to craziness. If there was a runeset that similarly added 3k direct damage procs, you had better believe people would fight against that coming into PvP as well.

So, that debate is not relevant to Conditions being OP, they’re relevant to how Perplexity runes are OP.

The condi-meta is definitively OP in WvW.

However the problems go a lot deeper than that. Conditions in and of themselves are not OP as such; stacking “soft” CC is ridiculous, armour, runes, sigils and food that allow condition damage to deal such big numbers and achieve max stacks and duration with little effort while the damage dealer is tanked to the eyeballs, is ridiculous.

What is also ridiculous is the fact that the condi meta is either godmode, or useless depending on the situation.

Thusly I can understand why condi users do NOT want it nerfed and can also understand why the recipients of uncleansable condi spam DO want it nerfed.

The entire condition system is broken, for everyone. We need to rethink it from the ground up.

Flytrap.8075:

I wouldn’t go that far.

If this was an open-and-shut case and the verdict was that conditions are absolutely fine and don’t need any changes, this thread would not be almost 15 pages long and I wouldn’t be here in the first place.

Your logical arguments are filled with fallacies and anecdotal experiences that I have already pointed out to no avail. As I stated earlier, it’s clear that everyone here is set in their opinions and I’m interested to see what ANet ends up doing with all of this feedback.

I suggest you take a look at this thread… you might find it interesting. (Spoilers: The anti-condi side wins).

P.S. – I like how the two main people who keep quote-warring me have Necromancers in their signatures

I’m never set in my opinion. Not ever. My opinions constantly go through the gauntlet based on whatever new information I receive, or simply based on time I spend putting them through my own internal gauntlet. The second new information suggests I’m incorrect, I’ll adjust my opinion based on the facts presented to make it stronger.

I have no personal attachment to thinking conditions aren’t all that bad. In fact, a long while back, I DID think they were too much. It seemed like just a few abilities were applying a whole load of damage, and I hadn’t known the animations at the time so it seemed like conditions were just appearing.

Then I looked into it. I looked up how much damage these abilities were doing, what their animations were, what stat contribution gained them. My conclusion was that conditions really weren’t all that bad, and I had just grossly overestimated how strong they were based on anecdotal impression in the heat of the moment.

Since then, I have yet to see a single argument to come close to swaying me to the contrary. When I see people say conditions are “spammy”, that’s just code for them saying they don’t like them. They can have their opinion, but it does nothing to change mine by them simply having it.

Give me some math. Show me some analysis. Prove to me that you’ve done the research instead of just forming an emotional opinion based on some bad experience(s).

And that thread you linked? As was mentioned, it has nothing to do with our discussion. I think the Perplexity runes shouldn’t exist in the entire game, period. Five stacks of confusion for interrupting, for anyone? It seems like the sort of condition that should be controlled in its availability because, in my opinion, it has a very negative impact on the game experience. You either cleanse it immediately, or you just run around doing nothing for several seconds because you’ll just kill yourself. I don’t see why Necros or Thieves should have any access whatsoever to Confusion.

I also think WvW food shouldn’t be up at the 40% range for conditions in general. It should be down around 10%, especially if specialty condition duration is at 15%.

Those two things aren’t really the fault of the condition system or any class’s ability to apply conditions, though. The on-crits conditions and the runes that apply conditions are what really start to add to the sense that conditions aren’t special, just ever-present with all being available to basically all classes (though some don’t have the tools to work with some).

That’s where I feel the heart of the problem lies. Scepter auto is fine. Scepter auto potentially proccing burning and torment is silly. That’s my opinion, anyway. I don’t, however, think they’re going to just remove all of the runes/sigils that slam these supplementary conditions into the mix, but that’s what I think the heart of the problem is.

Also, your attacks on the class we play mean nothing to the conversation at hand. Devolving into a “well your class can do X better” war is a huge waste of time. Do you not include your class in your signature out of fear that people will do what you do? The way people use classes that others play to attempt to ruin a conversation around these forums is inane. Ele/Engi is used as evidence for having a crutch/being skilled, Warrior is used as evidence of an ultranoob, Necro is used as evidence of a condition-lover, Thief is used as evidence of a cheesy no-skill Backstabber. Ranger is used to generate pity. Guardian is used to claim their class is fine in all regards. Mesmer… I don’t really hear much about, but everyone seems to hate PU.

So please, leave it at the door. As a Necro I’m probably given more options for manipulating conditions, but I also choose to bring them all. Just like how I chose to bring Signet of Stamina and use Runes of Lyssa as a condi clear (not just a “get all the boons!”), before Cleansing Ire was even an idea in ANet’s heads.

I love when posters claim “conditions are broken”, but offer no suggestion as to how they are broken. Of my 8 level 80s, only my mesmer and thief run conditions. As I see it the ridiculous spamming of direct damage attacks and stun, blow outs, knock backs, and knock down are closer to most of the posters here, warped definition of broken.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, your attacks on the class we play mean nothing to the conversation at hand. Devolving into a “well your class can do X better” war is a huge waste of time. Do you not include your class in your signature out of fear that people will do what you do? The way people use classes that others play to attempt to ruin a conversation around these forums is inane. Ele/Engi is used as evidence for having a crutch/being skilled, Warrior is used as evidence of an ultranoob, Necro is used as evidence of a condition-lover, Thief is used as evidence of a cheesy no-skill Backstabber. Ranger is used to generate pity. Guardian is used to claim their class is fine in all regards. Mesmer… I don’t really hear much about, but everyone seems to hate PU.

Wow this paragraph here is so spot on of the forums lol.

If nothing else can be agreed on, at least we should agree that perplexity condi builds are not balanced, even by the very loose standards of WvW. Just in the past week these things have skyrocketed from like 3g each to over 10g. It’s making my favorite class (mesmers) the laughing stock of WvW, and don’t even get me started with p/d perplexity thieves…which will probably still be the ultimate troll build without perplexity thanks to the new ambush trait that fits into the build in exactly the same manor as the the perplexity build.

Travelers runes cost more then that. Does that define them as unbalanced?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Travelers runes cost more then that. Does that define them as unbalanced?

No, but did they grow to 3x their old price?

Trader prices aside, Perplexity runes just seem too good. If there’s one condition the game needs less of and not more of, it’s Confusion (in my opinion, of course).

Flytrap.8075:

I like how everyone who is defending conditions in this thread acts like anyone who is complaining is just some noob who wandered into WvW and doesn’t want to take condition removal. You act as if people who want conditions to be changed or nerfed are running around with pure glass builds with nothing in mind except uber leet maximum damages and that’s simply not the case.

Erm, from the perspective of the condition, you are essentially running a glass cannon build. That, coupled with the psychological issue of not wanting to avoid them until the window of opportunity to avoid them has passed, is why they are perceived kitten strong.

Or rather, are so strong, because as long as my enemies think I’m just going to steamroll them, I really don’t need to care whether I actually could or not. :P

But anyhow the point is, conditions do “so much damage” because from their perspective, the average PvPer is running a glass cannon build. Each and every one of them is.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Trader prices aside, Perplexity runes just seem too good. If there’s one condition the game needs less of and not more of, it’s Confusion (in my opinion, of course).

Meh.
I sort of agree. I mean, as a Mesmer it’s stupid, because the majority of the confusion I apply is not because of my class skills. And it’s my “class condition”. Just that on my skills, the durations and opportunities are all very low. 3s confusion, one per clone. Etc.
Then come some runes and hey, 5 for 10s, per interrupt!

So yeah, I agree Perplexity is too strong. And Mesmer-confusion is too weak, but if you remove the runes you could double it and it wouldn’t be where Mesmer+Perplexity is right now. :P

dancingmonkey.4902:

Travelers runes cost more then that. Does that define them as unbalanced?

They probably are a bit too good, but they also solve the unfairness of some classes having high swiftness uptime in a normal build or having access to a 25% movement speed signet or trait, while other classes have almost no access to swiftness or have to carry around and constantly swap weapon sets for swiftness that they don’t want to be in combat with. By using them you also forgo using runes that are far better for offense or defense, and the crit nerf effectively knocked off 3.5% crit damage, which was the only noticeable gain from the stat bonuses.

My point was that perplexity runes are obviously in high demand right now. The entire supply of below cost to craft has been bought up, and now watchwork sprockets are moving up as players with the recipe craft more. Unless there is some market manipulation going on (entirely possible), then there are a lot of players re-rolling perplexity builds right now.

I really think anet should be doing something about this sooner rather than later so:

1. Roaming doesn’t become entirely perplexity face rollers, which will cause many to quit the game.

2. Large numbers of players don’t pay 60-70g for a set of runes only to have the rug pulled out from under them if they finally get fixed (again). Although I don’t have much sympathy for players that use them, it’s not right for anet to keep pulling these bait and switch tricks with gear.

That’s it.

Whoever plays a power build in Structured PvP must understand the frustration it is to play this game mode atm.

I see condi bunkers everywhere, they load me, I’m dead.

And the worst part is that, Anet being Anet will only fix this in 2043.

I also don’t get why they can’t make balance changes more often. If it’s broken, if players give accurate feedback regarding balance, why not fix it and release it in at least a week?

I mean, once a patch hits, you’ll see update notes on the following days fixing bugs.
It shouldn’t be so hard to make balance changes more often.
Don’t be afraid to try! PvP game mode is broken! Do something!

I play a power Engineer, and I 100% totally and completely disagree with you.

Just join the bandwagon dude. I’m farming PvP with my balanced engineer now.Running in circles and spamming grenades is incredibly rewarding. While being tanky as heck.

0 risk , 100% reward= condi builds

power specs dont even bother me anymore on my bunker guardian. i stocked up on hitpoints and 3x condi removal utils with 40% crit chance and on crit condi transfers. fought 2 necros 1 cond warrior and 1 cond engi last match. was hell of a condfest but you know what? i was able to cleanse ‘almost’ all the conditions. its funny when a meta forces you to play in a certain way…

Bring condition removals and the problem with the “condition meta” (which is kind of silly talking about meta 4 days after the balance patch) will become a minor problem.
Unless your Whole team is sitting in the circle eating engineer’s grenades without caring about focusing him, in that case there is nothing that can save you.

The difference between you and me is that I was getting wrecked by condi’s, so I started tweaking my build to fix it. I’m still in that process at the moment, but I’ve already seen a vast improvement. All you did is start having trouble and then come straight to the forums to wine. Give it time!

The reason the devs don’t change anything right away is because they can’t tell who’s just complaining, and who’s giving legitimate feedback. So they wait it out until all sorts of builds have been discovered. Then, months later, they begin to set tweaks in place.

zen.6091:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Travelers runes cost more then that. Does that define them as unbalanced?

They probably are a bit too good, but they also solve the unfairness of some classes having high swiftness uptime in a normal build or having access to a 25% movement speed signet or trait, while other classes have almost no access to swiftness or have to carry around and constantly swap weapon sets for swiftness that they don’t want to be in combat with. By using them you also forgo using runes that are far better for offense or defense, and the crit nerf effectively knocked off 3.5% crit damage, which was the only noticeable gain from the stat bonuses.

My point was that perplexity runes are obviously in high demand right now. The entire supply of below cost to craft has been bought up, and now watchwork sprockets are moving up as players with the recipe craft more. Unless there is some market manipulation going on (entirely possible), then there are a lot of players re-rolling perplexity builds right now.

I really think anet should be doing something about this sooner rather than later so:

1. Roaming doesn’t become entirely perplexity face rollers, which will cause many to quit the game.

2. Large numbers of players don’t pay 60-70g for a set of runes only to have the rug pulled out from under them if they finally get fixed (again). Although I don’t have much sympathy for players that use them, it’s not right for anet to keep pulling these bait and switch tricks with gear.

Umm, they were in higher demand before. They did greater damage before. So I do not get why anyone would assume that directly effects the price.

What effected the price was the fact that the population quadrupled in a day, as many players who haven’t played in a while, flood into the buyers market, while they log in to check out the update. The first few days after every update the prices on this and many other runes/sigil have doubled or more. You cannot simply claim something is OP because a massive influx of new buyers drive the prices up. I cleared a lot of stck out of my bank too, because of prices temporarily shooting up. That does not mean mithril ore is OP because it is selling for 4 times what it did 2 weeks ago.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Umm, they were in higher demand before. They did greater damage before. So I do not get why anyone would assume that directly effects the price.

What effected the price was the fact that the population quadrupled in a day, as many players who haven’t played in a while, flood into the buyers market, while they log in to check out the update. The first few days after every update the prices on this and many other runes/sigil have doubled or more. You cannot simply claim something is OP because a massive influx of new buyers drive the prices up. I cleared a lot of stck out of my bank too, because of prices temporarily shooting up. That does not mean mithril ore is OP because it is selling for 4 times what it did 2 weeks ago.

The population did not quadruple.

Crit damage got nerfed so the logical choice is to move to Condition builds.

I have no problems with conditions as they stand now, they are mechanically sound.

My problem is how easy it is to reapply the same conditions without any true downsides, the ease of going condition-spam (meaning tossing out the same damaging condition well before the enemy’s only mitigations against it are up) is too high.

Even slightly nerfing the cooldowns of certain commonly spammed skills by condition-based classes so that actual counter-play can exist outside of running Immunities or Cleanses would drastically improve GW2 for the better.

lazycalm.5186:

I also don’t get why they can’t make balance changes more often. If it’s broken, if players give accurate feedback regarding balance, why not fix it and release it in at least a week?

The problem is, players don’t give accurate feedback. I mean take this forum as an example. Many players show, that they do not correctly understand mechanics. And ANet is supposed to listen to this?

No, they have to do their own tests. And this takes time. Condition damage is prevalent these days, because many players don’t know how to counter them and/or run selfish builds (Not all of them, but many).