Guild Wars 2

Shadow Refuge is mandatory on nearly every thief build. It saves lives who are about to get stomped, it allows the thief to “fork” the enemy team by providing a +1 advantage somewhere else on the map without any drawbacks, it personally saves the life of the thief, you can shadow refuge bomb a point with your entire team – it’s good and quite possibly the best utility on a thief skillbar. Currently, the best way to counter shadow refuge is to rip the thief, and anyone in it, out of the house circle. This is usually countered by a thief timing a dodge or evade (or in the case of mesmer vs thief, consume plasma).

Give Shadow Refuge a 3/4 to 1 second cast time – leaning on 3/4 cast time. It provides a short period of time where someone can counter it directly with an interrupt, and the thief still has the opportunity to dodge roll/evade a ringout if he pulls it off. It doesn’t severely hamper getting that clutch stealth on a downed ally. And it becomes less of a “I suck kitten , better use refuge” button – as it’s usually best to use when you have some distance to your foes anyway. If you want to point bomb, it’s best to use it out of sight.

Discuss.

Hrm, I don’t see the point. Strong kitten is, it’s good that a Thief has some group-oriented utility.

And it’s easily countered because you actually leave out the main way: It’s nice of Mr Thief to position himself so nicely for subsequent AE barrages. Isntead of trying to CC them out, easiest is to just kill them, you know where they are.

There is already a mechanic in place for Shadow Refuge to have a ‘ramp up’ or prep time for it be effective.

Remember that you are actively smacked with revealed debuff, stripping stealth, if you exit the refuge in under 4 seconds.

If they put a cast time on it, and then the player could exit refuge at any point without being revealed, then perhaps.

Chaith.8256:

If they put a cast time on it, and then the player could exit refuge at any point without being revealed, then perhaps.

Chaith, it already has a cast time 1/4th second. I’m saying increase it to 3/4th’s seconds. I have no idea what you are talking about.

How the skill functions now, as it stands, is the following:

1) You spend 1/4th seconds casting shadow rufuge.
2) House ring pops up for about 4 seconds.
3) If you stay within that ring for the full duration, you will have stealth permanently, if not you will instantly be revealed.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Chaith.8256:

If they put a cast time on it, and then the player could exit refuge at any point without being revealed, then perhaps.

Chaith, it already has a cast time 1/4th second. I’m saying increase it to 3/4th’s seconds. I have no idea what you are talking about.

…………………………………………….

If they put a REAL cast time on it. That’s recognizable, and able to be reactively interrupted. Oye.

Do you see what I’m saying? If they increased the cast time on shadow refuge as per your suggestion from 1/4 to 3/4, I’m saying that you should re-compensate the skill by allowing the thief and allies to exit the shadow refuge early and keep the stealth they accumulated.

Idk if shadow refuge or shadow step is the stronger utility (at least in conquest). Probably shadow-step, and you are a fool if you ever take it off your bar (unless using some silliness such as 1-shot signet builds or venoms).

How to make shadow refuge slightly more balanced (pick some, not all)
- Add a real cast time (as OP suggested). 0.25s isn’t a real cast time, it literally just makes the skill not able to be used as a psuedo-stunbreak.
- Remove the healing it provides (at least on downed people). Currently, SR is like a short Elixir R, in addition to the whole stealth thing and being a dark field.
- No longer able to drop at range, simply a player-based skill so that there is risk to dropping this on a team-mate (besides lost CD).

Chaith.8256:

I’m saying that you should re-compensate the skill by allowing the thief and allies to exit the shadow refuge early and keep the stealth they accumulated.

No. I don’t think it needs that. Thieves already have ways to avoid the ringout. Granted, they don’t have good ways to avoid a constant barrage of aoe attacks other than blowing more evades, but the opposing player has no feedback on whether or not they are actually hitting the thief in contrast.

“- Remove the healing it provides (at least on downed people). Currently, SR is like a weak Elixir R, in addition to the whole stealth thing and being a dark field.
- No longer able to drop at range, simply a player-based skill so that there is risk to dropping this on a team-mate (besides lost CD).”

I don’t think ether of these things need to happen. If you remove the range on SR, it becomes severely hampered for team play. And the healing is pretty negligible without 30 points into SA.

Chicago Jack.5647:

No. I don’t think it needs that. Thieves already have ways to avoid the ringout. Granted, they don’t have good ways to avoid a constant barrage of aoe attacks other than blowing more evades, but the opposing player has no feedback on whether or not they are actually hitting the thief in contrast.

Oooh, 1v1.
Best counter is the one which always works: avoid 1v1. Most of your balance worries are solved now. See, your change would make an already weak ability in group usage even weaker. It is already a death-trap in many situations.

Another interesting counter is simply leaving. The Thief cannot readily follow you, and just blew SR. If they didn’t gain anything from it, they wasted it for nothing. Best if you were at 1200 range ofc, you can keep it there, they cannot retaliate, and you can come back when stealth runs out.

Carighan.6758:

Oooh, 1v1.

What? Nobody mentioned 1v1’ing at all.

See, your change would make an already weak ability in group usage even weaker.

Don’t disrespect the usefulness of shadow refuge. It’s a VERY good skill, and VERY good in team play. It’s certainly not a deathtrap if used correctly.

Carighan.6758:

Another interesting counter is simply leaving.

If you leave, the thief decaps. In other words, it’s not an option. This is what a thief does to fork the enemy. They put them in a position to pick two choices which they don’t want to take. Ether they stay and sit afk for 15-20 seconds while the thief +1 a point, or they leave and the thief gets the decap. This tactic should be used because it’s how the thief plays and provides a more diverse game to play, so no need to nerf it to the ground like a 90 second cooldown or 1 and 3/4ths cast time or something. 3/4’s seconds is just enough time for someone to counter it directly if they’re good at saving their hard cc.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Carighan.6758:

Oooh, 1v1.

What? Nobody mentioned 1v1’ing at all.

See, your change would make an already weak ability in group usage even weaker.

Don’t disrespect the usefulness of shadow refuge. It’s a VERY good skill, and VERY good in team play. It’s certainly not a deathtrap if used correctly.

Carighan.6758:

Another interesting counter is simply leaving.

If you leave, the thief decaps. In other words, it’s not an option. This is what a thief does to fork the enemy. They put them in a position to pick two choices which they don’t want to take. Ether they stay and sit afk for 15-20 seconds while the thief +1 a point, or they leave and the thief gets the decap. This tactic should be used because it’s how the thief plays and provides a more diverse game to play, so no need to nerf it to the ground like a 90 second cooldown or 1 and 3/4ths cast time or something. 3/4’s seconds is just enough time for someone to counter it directly if they’re good at saving their hard cc.

Ever play mind games with the Thief?

Here’s what you do.. as soon as he casts refuge, before it even disperses, start running away from the point as fast as possible. 8-9 seconds later, blast back towards the point at full speed.

Often times I see the Thief exit stealth right next to the point where he was waiting for it to wear off, and then he has to rotate back to mid while I land some poke damage. Either way just by giving him the impression he could get an ez-decap, you can slow his rotation to mid significantly.

Chaith.8256:

Either way just by giving him the impression he could get an ez-decap, you can slow his rotation to mid significantly.

Interesting Chaith, I honestly hadn’t ever thought of that. I still think 3/4 sec cast time is reasonable, and would make for better play and possible team compositions overall in the game.

SR is in a solid place.

Locking people in place for 4 seconds to gain the benefit is a solid way to add counterplay to it.

IMO Portal has a similar role to SR, but Portal is far stronger. I don’t see any reason to change Portal, so a weaker rotational utility I see no reason to change either.

Portal isn’t even remotely comparable to SR in terms of usefulness. It is a huge sacrifice on the Mesmer’s part (SR costs a Thief absolutely nothing). If I may be frank for a second, and without intention to divert the thread off-topic too much, Portal has really held the class back while SR has always been a painless option. It was the case back when “combat Portal” on a half minute cooldown used to exist and it’s still the same now.

shimmerlessEU.6841:

Portal has really held the class back while SR has always been a painless option.

I don’t understand how portal has “held the class back”. Do you mean it as a mandatory pick to be useful to the team? Because shadow refuge is really the same way. You wouldn’t sac shadow refuge for shadow trap, for example.

The skill doesn’t need a nerf. It’s already bad enough as is.

Now, I main elementalist so believe me, I understand just how annoying thieves can be. I can remember this one thief in WvW just would not leave me alone. She kept coming back to try and kill me and I would repeatedly beat her over and over, but she always managed to maintain a fraction of her health and then shadow refuge away. This literally happened about 12-15 times (not exaggerating, I promise.)

That being said, the skill should not get nerfed in any way. If you’ve ever played thief for yourself, you’d be shocked at just how annoying the enemy is. As soon as you cast shadow refuge it’s like an open invitation for everyone on the entire map to come and knock you out of it, or blast whatever aoe attacks are available. Once I even considered swapping it for another skill merely because it seemed to get me killed by attraction rather than saving me.

In essence, the skill is meant to save the thief. No matter how freaking annoying it can be at times, that is the purpose of the skill. And the thief has a hard enough time using it successfully even without a nerf.

Just my thoughts on the matter…

Gtfo! refuge has cast time, thief can be knock/pull out of it. Its also an indication of where you need to place aoe to kill said thief. The skill is fine.

Shadow refuge already has enough counterplay. It keeps someone in a small area allowing for extra damage, CC or conditions to be applied lest the thief wants to be revealed.

I love SR. It usually mean that the thief is in a small area with low hp. A Barrage from my Ranger and a couple of GS swing and he’s done. Free kill.

Are there really that many complaints about Shadow Refuge? Usually people are complaining about the Shadow Arts line or Feline Grace. Haven’t seen a refuge complaint in quite some time…

Shadow Refuge is absolutely overpowered for a utility, however since thieves aren’t really overpowered anymore it doesn’t need any nerfs, at least without compensation else where. Also I always did find the cool down extremely low for how strong it is.

People that complain that SR is OP or needs a nerf are clearly new to PvP. The only time SR presents a clear advantage is if the thief throws it on a downed ally to prevent a stomp, and even so:

1) half of the time, the downed ally reveals himself accidentally, and/or
2) the enemy simply pours AoE onto the SR, killing one or both of the players inside, and/or
3) the enemy fears or KBs the thief out of SR, revealing her in the process.

As earlier stated, if a thief SRs herself on a control point, you are free to briefly leave the area, forcing her, again, to reveal herself or to sit on the point for 20 seconds in stealth. Again, you may also pour AoE onto the SR circle or utilize knock backs if you want to force the thief’s hand. If a thief low in HP drops SR to save herself, you are the one that holds the advantage. You can also easily predict a forthcoming attack or escape based on the position of the SR and how long it has existed.

While I main a thief in PvE I prefer guardian in sPvP, and in my opinion SR is actually one of the better balanced skills in terms of rewards vs possible counters.

You people are thinking of way too complicating ideas. This is all that it needs:

• Shadow Refuge now pulses 2s of stealth instead of 3s.

Why? 5 is the golden number of Guild Wars 2. Changing the stealth granted to 2s means that they have stealth for the 5s of shadow refuge and then stealth for 5s when shadow refuge ends.

15s of stealth is just ridiculous.

That is all that it needs.

Zefrost.3425:

15s of stealth is just ridiculous.

No, 15 seconds allows the thief just enough time to +1 another point.

I feel like some these complainers never played a thief. Please don’t ruin thief like rogues on WoW.

You know when a thief uses SR, they have to stand within that tiny circle for few seconds. That’s plenty time for someone to react and prepare.

Also, some thieves are predictable in stealth. Once my fire proc hits them, they’re screwed.

I see no problems with Shadow Refuge other than the cooldown. Besides Consume Plasma, It’s like one of the biggest middle fingers to Mesmers.

Typical Scenario:
You have a greatsword and Illusionary Wave is off its cooldown. The thief uses Shadow Refuge but luckily didn’t Shadowstep away first. You go to deliver the knockback but the ground is slightly uneven so the knockback fails. In panic, you use Mass Invisibility to buy time but you suddenly realize you screwed up.

In your mind you know the other player is laughing at you. He knows you wasted your pitiful elite and within a few seconds he will plunge his dagger through your back. When you drop out of stealth you throw out a few random dodges, then there’s a flash of a fire nova and it’s all over.

In conclusion, why the hell is Shadow Refuge’s cooldown 60 sec and Mass Invisibility is 90 sec?

cus stealth is the thief’s specialty? think ppl here just want a glass war or something

Clownmug.8357:

In conclusion, why the hell is Shadow Refuge’s cooldown 60 sec and Mass Invisibility is 90 sec?

I think it’s because shadow refuge allows the thief to fork, whereas portal does effectively the same thing for Mesmers. Portal provides presence on a point for up to 60 seconds. Shadow Refuge is somewhere between 15-20 seconds.

Clownmug.8357:

In conclusion, why the hell is Shadow Refuge’s cooldown 60 sec and Mass Invisibility is 90 sec?

Refuge applies to up to 5 players, applies instant reveal if anyone inside is knocked out, and makes everyone inside the small circle susceptible to AoE pressure from the enemy team. Mass invis applies to up to 10 players, has no positional requirement other than staying within 1200 radius of the caster, and has no counterplay other than interrupting the mesmer. The two skills aren’t similar at all.

Then there’s the bigger problem of comparing skills in a vacuum, which should never be done.

mango.9267:

Then there’s the bigger problem of comparing skills in a vacuum, which should never be done.

Cast Time: 0.25 sec vs 1.75 sec – Shadow Refuge wins
Cooldown: 60 sec vs 90 sec – Shadow Refuge wins
Stealth: 10-15 sec vs 5-6 sec – Inconclusive (Shadow Refuge requires standing in the circle for 4 sec)
Healing: 1,775 (0.9) vs 0 – Shadow Refuge wins
Number of Targets: 5 vs 10 – Inconclusive (Unlimited allies for Shadow Refuge if they walk into it, but they’re unaffected by pulses)
Radius: 240 vs 1200 – Mass Invisibility wins

Overall it seems like Shadow Refuge wins but I’m just comparing numbers, is that still a taboo?

Clownmug.8357:

mango.9267:

Then there’s the bigger problem of comparing skills in a vacuum, which should never be done.

Cast Time: 0.25 sec vs 1.75 sec – Shadow Refuge wins
Cooldown: 60 sec vs 90 sec – Shadow Refuge wins
Stealth: 10-15 sec vs 5-6 sec – Inconclusive (Shadow Refuge requires standing in the circle for 4 sec)
Healing: 1,775 (0.9) vs 0 – Shadow Refuge wins
Number of Targets: 5 vs 10 – Inconclusive (Unlimited allies for Shadow Refuge if they walk into it, but they’re unaffected by pulses)
Radius: 240 vs 1200 – Mass Invisibility wins

Overall it seems like Shadow Refuge wins but I’m just comparing numbers, is that still a taboo?

If it’s not taboo, it should be. Just because you’re tossing in numbers doesn’t change the fact that you’re still comparing two skills in a vacuum. Balance discussions should center around the build or the profession as a whole.

It’s meaningless to compare refuge to mass invis without a holistic comparison of certain thief builds vs. certain mesmer builds. It makes even less sense to compare refuge and mass invis because, stealth aside, their mechanics aren’t similar.

Clownmug.8357:

mango.9267:

Then there’s the bigger problem of comparing skills in a vacuum, which should never be done.

Cast Time: 0.25 sec vs 1.75 sec – Shadow Refuge wins
Cooldown: 60 sec vs 90 sec – Shadow Refuge wins
Stealth: 10-15 sec vs 5-6 sec – Inconclusive (Shadow Refuge requires standing in the circle for 4 sec)
Healing: 1,775 (0.9) vs 0 – Shadow Refuge wins
Number of Targets: 5 vs 10 – Inconclusive (Unlimited allies for Shadow Refuge if they walk into it, but they’re unaffected by pulses)
Radius: 240 vs 1200 – Mass Invisibility wins

Overall it seems like Shadow Refuge wins but I’m just comparing numbers, is that still a taboo?

I think you just want to make mesmers op by nerfing the hard counters.

I guess I don’t understand what you’re saying then. I don’t see why we need to look at an entire profession just to compare the skills.

If I look at traits then it makes Shadow Refuge look even better with cooldown reduction, blind from stealth, condition removal from stealth, and other Shadow Arts traits. Mass Invisibility has Prismatic Understanding and that’s it.

If I look at the dark combo field, I see other utilities and weapons skills that create useful combos with Shadow Refuge. Mass Invisibility has no combo field.

I can also look at rune bonuses since that’s something Mass Invisibility can do that Shadow Refuge doesn’t, but the 90 sec cooldown kills the potential.

What I’m saying is, if I start looking at builds + overall profession it just makes Shadow Refuge look even better.

endersluck.4708:

I think you just want to make mesmers op by nerfing the hard counters.

Somewhat true, it’s like I have a nice house but my neighbors next door live in a mansion and play loud music.

Clownmug.8357:

Somewhat true, it’s like I have a nice house but my neighbors next door live in a mansion and play loud music.

Ha, this made me laugh.

Look at it this way: You can have portal and Mass Invis.

I’d honestly rather see the plethora of worthless and UP thief utilities buffed.

The reason you see SR and SS on every thief bar is partly due to how good they are, but mostly due to the immense gap between our few “good” utilities and the rest of the kitten.

Utility venoms are useless, with the occasional exception of Devourers in some niche builds (even then it isn’t a particularly “good” utility).
Traps are crap.
Scorpion wire would be a great utility if the pull worked even 75% of the time – it doesn’t, so it isn’t.
RFI would be a solid utility choice if you could count on it to fire when you hit it (I’m not talking server latency, I’m talking hammering on the skill for 1-2s and having nothing happen) – it doesn’t, so it isn’t.
Caltrop’s are meh even for condition thieves (which you don’t see in PvP for obvious reasons) thanks to the amount of condi cleansing the current (and past few) meta’s necessitate and the fact that it’s just more bleeds (the one damaging utility thieves have applicable access to)
Haste is a crapshoot for a class that relies so heavily on evades for damage mitigation.

Deception and signet utilities are decent for the most part – which is why you’ll usually see a thief with SR, SS, and either a Signet or Blinding powder – there’s just no competition.

But evilapprentince, if we nerf the good skills enough the bad skills will start to look good.

:/ Watching this thread how it goes before adding it to the nerf wish list. Although, technically it is a nerf… and can very well be added, but so far it lacks the reek of but hurt (puns bypass filters!) …

Only nit picky thing is, is:

Chicago Jack.5647:

3) If you stay within that ring for the full duration, you will have stealth permanently, if not you will instantly be revealed.

I tried… it runs out… you’re not stealthed “permanently”. :P But I guess it’s just over-exaggeration of how much longer the stealth lasts as opposed when it’s gotten by other means.

Since SR trapped us in a confined space and easy to be targeted by AOE damage and condition, I have used SR in PVP but not to stealth from the enemy, but to lure my enemy to keep hitting an empty SR. (lol)

Currently, I use SR on a empty AOE at the conner and use smoke bomb / bow 5skill to flee. It’s fun to see a ranger, zerker necromancer keep applying AOE skill on an empty area. (lol)

shimmerlessEU.6841:

Portal isn’t even remotely comparable to SR in terms of usefulness. It is a huge sacrifice on the Mesmer’s part (SR costs a Thief absolutely nothing). If I may be frank for a second, and without intention to divert the thread off-topic too much, Portal has really held the class back while SR has always been a painless option. It was the case back when “combat Portal” on a half minute cooldown used to exist and it’s still the same now.

Mesmer logic – all mesmers have is totally useless while our opponents are uber op and it requires a great deal of skill to kill anyone as a mesmer. Everyone should feel sorry for us and praise our persistence in playing such a underpowered class.

This is why mesmer posts are one of the most toxic ones and often lack any sense regarding class/skill balance.

BlackBeard.2873:

Idk if shadow refuge or shadow step is the stronger utility (at least in conquest). Probably shadow-step, and you are a fool if you ever take it off your bar (unless using some silliness such as 1-shot signet builds or venoms).

How to make shadow refuge slightly more balanced (pick some, not all)
- Add a real cast time (as OP suggested). 0.25s isn’t a real cast time, it literally just makes the skill not able to be used as a psuedo-stunbreak.
- Remove the healing it provides (at least on downed people). Currently, SR is like a short Elixir R, in addition to the whole stealth thing and being a dark field.
- No longer able to drop at range, simply a player-based skill so that there is risk to dropping this on a team-mate (besides lost CD).

That is not balancing,that called nerfing.

As a new mesmer, and an old thief, I miss SR! I’m sure it’s a great skill when used right, but for now Mass Invis gets me killed during the cast time one time out of three. But when you look at it, mesmers still have Blink and Portal, possibly two of the coolest skills in the game, and Basilik Venom is not exactly OP either, even on a 40s cooldown, so it’s not that big a deal.

I just want to point out that not all thieves use SR, i cant remember the last time i equipped that crap

ryan.6217:

I just want to point out that not all thieves use SR, i cant remember the last time i equipped that crap

Yeah sure, but we’re talking about tpvp, where it’s the only real team utility the thief has.

Corvette.5687:

Since SR trapped us in a confined space and easy to be targeted by AOE damage and condition, I have used SR in PVP but not to stealth from the enemy, but to lure my enemy to keep hitting an empty SR. (lol)

Currently, I use SR on a empty AOE at the conner and use smoke bomb / bow 5skill to flee. It’s fun to see a ranger, zerker necromancer keep applying AOE skill on an empty area. (lol)

A clever man, thank you for sharing good sir.

Corvette.5687:

Since SR trapped us in a confined space and easy to be targeted by AOE damage and condition, I have used SR in PVP but not to stealth from the enemy, but to lure my enemy to keep hitting an empty SR. (lol)

Currently, I use SR on a empty AOE at the conner and use smoke bomb / bow 5skill to flee. It’s fun to see a ranger, zerker necromancer keep applying AOE skill on an empty area. (lol)

God… I think this is going to get QQ’ed about sometime in the future… since it’s clever, other people nubs will most likely complain and deem it OP. “OMG it’s not fair for us to AoE and empty SR field… make the center of it attached to the thief so the SR field follows around the thief’s movement!”

o.o I’m going to add my idea to the nerf wish list – just to get ahead of something that will probably be complained about.

I just wish thief could break LOS of dev’s O.o

No need to change SR IMO, its got its share of rather obvious counters and it definitely brings some group utility for the thief. Balanced all around no matter what roamers say.

One simple question to the OP, WHY do you want it to be nerfed ?

lvis.3824:

One simple question to the OP, WHY do you want it to be nerfed ?

Well it could be subconscious logic. OP may not even be aware of why they are asking for it. Let’s say you’re a ranger for example. If a thief casts SR and you’re rapid fire is on cooldown. Well PBS is too slow to knock a thief out of it because of the cast time. People that want nerfs to skills like this either aren’t built to fight them or they are too new to see a ready solution to deal with the skill.

Let’s say you have a downed opponent and a thief runs up to cast SR to save them. Well if your class’s interrupt is short range or some projectile with travel time, you might not be able to stop SR. Everyone knows you can make SR useless by knocking enemies out of it or bombing the circle with cleave and AoE, but not everyone has cleaving knockbacks or the ability to kill fully with AoE. which are what you’d need to deal with SR after it’s been cast.

As an engineer I can say “SR is fine.” I have more knockbacks, launches and AoEs than I know what to do with. As eles, others can say that SR is fine because they can bomb it or launch people out of it. As a Hambow warrior, SR is fine because you can AoE it and cleave people out of the circle. As a Necro, SR is fine because even if you don’t fear everyone out of the circle, you have wells down for tells or for killing people within the circle.

Don’t get me wrong, I know there are numerous ways a ranger can deal with SR. There’s the entangle elite, barrage and a weapon swap to a cleaving set, etc. But that ranger may have to build to deal with it. I noticed thieves that fight against other thieve’s SR have to guess a lot more. I think though that’s why SR is fine as it is. It requires some counterplay but you just have to make a robust build instead of one dedicated to fighting it in order to win.

Comparing SR to MI is like comparing phantasms to thieves guild,there are some utilites that fit more thieves and hence are much better and there are utlities that fits mesmers that are much better than thieves.Each have a specialty,thieves is stealth,mesmers is clones.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

Portal isn’t even remotely comparable to SR in terms of usefulness. It is a huge sacrifice on the Mesmer’s part (SR costs a Thief absolutely nothing). If I may be frank for a second, and without intention to divert the thread off-topic too much, Portal has really held the class back while SR has always been a painless option. It was the case back when “combat Portal” on a half minute cooldown used to exist and it’s still the same now.

Mesmer logic – all mesmers have is totally useless while our opponents are uber op and it requires a great deal of skill to kill anyone as a mesmer. Everyone should feel sorry for us and praise our persistence in playing such a underpowered class.

This is why mesmer posts are one of the most toxic ones and often lack any sense regarding class/skill balance.

Please point out where in the post you’re quoting I said any of this utter nonsense? I assume I’ll be waiting a while?

I would like to have a dialogue with others that might maintain some standard of maturity, no need to unleash your apparently raging animus out on me.