Guild Wars 2

dancingmonkey.4902:

Just because that build can dominate a point against you, doesn’t mean it is a problem for the rest of us.

too bad the problem is for the rest of us, engis are too good atm

Yes, engi is over the top.
Celestial or not.
Condi spam.
IP proc.
such passive, much damage, wow

TrOtskY.5927:

Well that depends on the build or class I am playing. do you not play as any kind of thief or guardian for example? Stop trying to make this personal by bolding you as if this problem was particular to me and my playstyle. This about game balance, not personal god kitten quibbles.

Tbh you just sound exactly like the person I am describing in my last post above ^

You hold the game back.

Personal? You stated it as a definitive fact. Which offers the implication that everyone including myself, have the same issue with it that you do. Does that not entitle me to put the responsibility for your opinion back on you? I have found encountering an builds your referring to as fairly easy to combat with the build it end to run. Thus I feel my experience being the opposite of your, vert much allows me to redirect your all encompassing statment, to specify that you do not speak for me.

Simon.3794:

Yes, engi is over the top.
Celestial or not.
Condi spam.
IP proc.
such passive, much damage, wow

I feel in general the condi damage is not a provlem. IP on the other hand, I agree should go. The question is, what should replace it?

It also brings up another question. If conditions in general are so overpowering, why do you only see 4 engineers running a condition build out of 64 teams of 5 in any of the last tournaments, and the rest run power/rifle builds?

dancingmonkey.4902:

TrOtskY.5927:

Well that depends on the build or class I am playing. do you not play as any kind of thief or guardian for example? Stop trying to make this personal by bolding you as if this problem was particular to me and my playstyle. This about game balance, not personal god kitten quibbles.

Tbh you just sound exactly like the person I am describing in my last post above ^

You hold the game back.

Personal? You stated it as a definitive fact. Which offers the implication that everyone including myself, have the same issue with it that you do. Does that not entitle me to put the responsibility for your opinion back on you? I have found encountering an builds your referring to as fairly easy to combat with the build it end to run. Thus I feel my experience being the opposite of your, vert much allows me to redirect your all encompassing statment, to specify that you do not speak for me.

Simon.3794:

Yes, engi is over the top.
Celestial or not.
Condi spam.
IP proc.
such passive, much damage, wow

I feel in general the condi damage is not a provlem. IP on the other hand, I agree should go. The question is, what should replace it?

It also brings up another question. If conditions in general are so overpowering, why do you only see 4 engineers running a condition build out of 64 teams of 5 in any of the last tournaments, and the rest run power/rifle builds?

Cuz in a team fight and organised 5v5, condi spam has lower skill ceiling= lower potential then power. most of the condition builds are gimmiks and op yet have no place in 5v5, PU mes, PD thief, S/S war, burn guard, evade spam condi ranger. necro and engi made it in to the 5v5s, because they by accident have good group fight utilities, engi have more then necro, so engi is more used. condi builds overall are over the top. just not used in team fight cuz no utility.

How is it a lower skill ceiling?

How many hours do you have on the engie build that you feel has a low skill ceiling, and what build are you using that you feel has a low skill ceiling?

dancingmonkey.4902:

How is it a lower skill ceiling?

How many hours do you have on the engie build that you feel has a low skill ceiling, and what build are you using that you feel has a low skill ceiling?

Condi build generally has lower skill ceiling then power build,
We are talking about builds, not classes.
not sure how you don’t understand.
you really think condi engi takes more skill then a zerker engi? lol

Simon.3794:

dancingmonkey.4902:

How is it a lower skill ceiling?

How many hours do you have on the engie build that you feel has a low skill ceiling, and what build are you using that you feel has a low skill ceiling?

Condi build generally has lower skill ceiling then power build,
We are talking about builds, not classes.
not sure how you don’t understand.
you really think condi engi takes more skill then a zerker engi? lol

It totally depends on the builds in question. 3x kit cond eng takes more skill than a SD eng for sure.

Aberrant.6749:

Simon.3794:

dancingmonkey.4902:

How is it a lower skill ceiling?

How many hours do you have on the engie build that you feel has a low skill ceiling, and what build are you using that you feel has a low skill ceiling?

Condi build generally has lower skill ceiling then power build,
We are talking about builds, not classes.
not sure how you don’t understand.
you really think condi engi takes more skill then a zerker engi? lol

It totally depends on the builds in question. 3x kit cond eng takes more skill than a SD eng for sure.

Ofc, it’s like saying hambow 3 stances zerker war compare to sword sword war with triple physical utility.

but really, 3 kit engi can also be nade, elixir gun, tool kit. also people running SD without SB too.
but even 3 kits no sb condi engi is easier play then SD.

Simon.3794:

dancingmonkey.4902:

How is it a lower skill ceiling?

How many hours do you have on the engie build that you feel has a low skill ceiling, and what build are you using that you feel has a low skill ceiling?

Condi build generally has lower skill ceiling then power build,
We are talking about builds, not classes.
not sure how you don’t understand.
you really think condi engi takes more skill then a zerker engi? lol

Lol?

Many of the power builds and condition builds use the exact same skills, only with some different traits or gear. So I guess lol, right back at you?

Anyway, what condition build was it you were sugguesting had such a lower skill ceiling? How much time with the did you have with it to determine it is a lower skill ceiling? It seems you forgot to answer those questions in your reply? I am asking because it it a bit realavent to the discussion. Surely you would have spent plenty of time trying them out yourself before making your statement right?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Simon.3794:

dancingmonkey.4902:

How is it a lower skill ceiling?

How many hours do you have on the engie build that you feel has a low skill ceiling, and what build are you using that you feel has a low skill ceiling?

Condi build generally has lower skill ceiling then power build,
We are talking about builds, not classes.
not sure how you don’t understand.
you really think condi engi takes more skill then a zerker engi? lol

Lol?

Many of the power builds and condition builds use the exact same skills, only with some different traits or gear. So I guess lol, right back at you?

Anyway, what condition build was it you were sugguesting had such a lower skill ceiling? How much time with the did you have with it to determine it is a lower skill ceiling? It seems you forgot to answer those questions in your reply? I am asking because it it a bit realavent to the discussion. Surely you would have spent plenty of time trying them out yourself before making your statement right?

exactly, they use the exact same skills, except condi will always be easier compare to power. Don’t really understand how would you not get it.

Possibly because you have failed to detail how so? Care to break it down in detail?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Possibly because you have failed to detail how so? Care to break it down in detail?

Or, you can actually learn the game?

Simon.3794:

Aberrant.6749:

Simon.3794:

dancingmonkey.4902:

How is it a lower skill ceiling?

How many hours do you have on the engie build that you feel has a low skill ceiling, and what build are you using that you feel has a low skill ceiling?

Condi build generally has lower skill ceiling then power build,
We are talking about builds, not classes.
not sure how you don’t understand.
you really think condi engi takes more skill then a zerker engi? lol

It totally depends on the builds in question. 3x kit cond eng takes more skill than a SD eng for sure.

Ofc, it’s like saying hambow 3 stances zerker war compare to sword sword war with triple physical utility.

but really, 3 kit engi can also be nade, elixir gun, tool kit. also people running SD without SB too.
but even 3 kits no sb condi engi is easier play then SD.

I disagree. SD is very easy… it’s cc-> spam. Cond 3x no break requires a lot more control of your target for a much longer period of time and manage your cd’s.

SD is far more foos which makes it a worse/less effective build though… which is what I think you’re saying.

Simon.3794:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Possibly because you have failed to detail how so? Care to break it down in detail?

Or, you can actually learn the game?

He’s asking for you to back up your argument and your response is basically “No, you back up my argument.” >.> Yea I, I’m done with you since you don’t actually want a conversation with people.

Though I’m not the most experienced Engineer, I agree with Incendiary Powder being a bad trait. It’s a pretty good chunk of damage (not terribly great dps, especially compared to what other professions put out), but it’s passive (aka boring) and unpredictable (because we all love RNG). I’d be all for its removal if we could get some better damage on our base weapon sets. Particularly the improvement of the pistol AA bleed, though Engineer weapons don’t really give much in the way of damage skills. Rifle can do plenty of damage, but most of the skills come with utility that you sacrifice in order to get the damage (At least when jump shot wants to work).

As for adding a longer cooldown on kit swapping, it would basically break them in their current implementation. This isn’t so true for bomb and grenade kit, but kits aren’t very coherent effect-wise. It’s sufficiently different from Elementalist attunements to justify the mechanics change. While Ele damage requires a rotation, if you’re setting up to avoid some big damage you can camp earth attunement (or air to GTFO), or if the time calls for it you can heal up staying in water attunement. Engineer kits aren’t themed the same way, and have skills all over the place. There isn’t a “I want to run away” kit, or a “I need to avoid damage” kit. E gun is almost like water attunement, except it’s only one skill that heals and removes conditions on the caster canned with an escape/nuke, AoE party condition clear, and a snare.

To address those saying that the Engineer can do too much, or has access to too many things “for free.” That’s the label on the can, you knew that was the case when you chose what profession to play. The Engineer is advertised as having the toolkit to do a lot of things. That doesn’t by any means mean you can do it all with any one build, but the profession is designed around being able to pack the tools for just about any job, given the time to set themselves up for it (IE: build the traits and skills). That said, it’s true of most, probably every, professions that you can do just about anything, and thanks to weapon skills some of them have access to multiple “roles” even in a build meant to do something else. Just look at the QQ about Rangers now that they can CC and do damage by equipping one particular weapon.

Turrets are also pretty bad. Even if you were facing a team of 5 Turret engineers, you could just bring 2, maybe 3 if you’re not very good, people and clear every point without issue.

I can get behind the idea that IP is a problem. It is by far the highest damage on crit trait out there.

Every other issue being mentioned here has 2 problems that seem to accompany their mentioning that prevent me from taking them seriously. Either the poster issuing the complaint is dishonest by suggesting the speak for the entire community, and tries to misrepresent that to push their own agenda, and posters refuse to articulate any reasoning to support their claims.

Anyone can hop on any of the “hipster” “XXX is OP” threads and just type, yup, such and such is OP. It doesn’t even remotely make it true. Unless you actually make a reasonable argument, your simply setting a precedence for other to be reluctant to take you seriously in future threads as well as the current one. As well, you cannot simply make a claim based on how something “feels” or “felt” to you. You should actually test it out yourself, and even spend a few second doing some very basic, elementary level math. It is not like we are asking for the world from you, but if you cannot offer a logical reasoning, then you are proving the point against your own argument.

The power of IP could be SOMEHOW spread across our weapon skills. Our weapon skills are fairly weak on their own (one of the three main reasons we use kits is this), and for engineers to obtain viable builds that use primarily elixirs or gadgets we need our weapons buffed or reworked. What this change is meant to accomplish is this: in order to regain the power of IP we need to hit multiple weapon skills, rather than just one single crit.

The problem with this is that it will require engineers to get extremely close at all stages of teamfights. If you read previous Anet posts, they actually designed the Engineer to be a ranged-yet-close-quarters fighter, but they took away our decent condition removal and they refuse to give us reliable and significant stability options, which prevents us from achieving their intended playstyle. We wouldn’t be able to survive the focus fire if my proposed IP change were to be made on its own.

I would consider it an acceptable trade off if it means we got condition removal and stability options. But I doubt Anet’s ability to do this successfully, so I don’t see it as feasible at this time.

What do you guys think?

Kako.1930:

Yet, thieves and warriors still make up a huge chunk of the playerbase even post-patch. Something’s telling me our thieves and warriors want to return to being godmode ASAP lol.

You know us too well.

-teef

nickxnickx.5401:

Kako.1930:

Yet, thieves and warriors still make up a huge chunk of the playerbase even post-patch. Something’s telling me our thieves and warriors want to return to being godmode ASAP lol.

You know us too well.

-teef

Close. We just want to be able to enjoy our class without playing with a heavy nerf just because people think we have it too easy. It’s not easy to enter a fight knowing that:

• once someone locks you, you have no way to break the target lock
• your major class traits are tied directly to your main spike damage, and if you use one you have to forfeit the other
• your condi cleanses are either 2 per 20 seconds by use of a utility or depend on you carrying a specific weapon or hitting someone with burst, which tied to the previous point
• your traits that depend on adren reset to 0 even if you were just in a battle 10 secs ago

I don’t need to win every time. I don’t feel like I should be nerfed into having to try ten times harder than everyone else just to live, though.

-warr

Well the only other option was to buff other professions. Given the fact that it creates a power creep, and the favt that they want to prevent a power creep, it appears to me to be a reasonable discission.

Does it not seem a bit hypocritical to you that your making your argument of an anti-nerfing perspective for an entirely different profession, on a thread about needing another profession?

I am curious, if your concerned about condition removal, since you mentioned it specifically, how many hours have you spent on the engineer? And how do you feel the condition removal compares?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

nickxnickx.5401:

Kako.1930:

Yet, thieves and warriors still make up a huge chunk of the playerbase even post-patch. Something’s telling me our thieves and warriors want to return to being godmode ASAP lol.

You know us too well.

-teef

Close. We just want to be able to enjoy our class without playing with a heavy nerf just because people think we have it too easy. It’s not easy to enter a fight knowing that:

• once someone locks you, you have no way to break the target lock
• your major class traits are tied directly to your main spike damage, and if you use one you have to forfeit the other
• your condi cleanses are either 2 per 20 seconds by use of a utility or depend on you carrying a specific weapon or hitting someone with burst, which tied to the previous point
• your traits that depend on adren reset to 0 even if you were just in a battle 10 secs ago

I don’t need to win every time. I don’t feel like I should be nerfed into having to try ten times harder than everyone else just to live, though.

-warr

Luckily as a warrior, despite the nerfs, still require one of the least effort to do well. People complain about how bad IP is yet your class has healing signet, arguably the most toxic passive bullcrap to ever been graced in this game. It allows your class to apply pressure freely while having these passives keep you alive, something all other classes, even engineers does not get to do. Your class despite being advertised as a class that should be weak conditions, is actually probably the most resilient class to condis. If any warriors is getting overwhelmed by condis despite having beserker stance and cleaning ire while having healing signet neglate all bleeds and flame damage, then it is a serious L2p issue.

In defense for Healing Signet though;

Adrenal Surge got hit with the Adrenaline Decay and general nerf to Adrenaline
Mending is just bad
And that Stance… what was it called again? Oh right, Defiant Stance… Sounds good in theory actually… in practice, it is just underpeforming (shockingly)

GoogleBrandon.5073:

And that Stance… what was it called again? Oh right, Defiant Stance… Sounds good in theory actually… in practice, it is just underpeforming (shockingly)

Yet in a large scale fight that is riddled with AoEs, it is almost ridiculously over powered.

I guess, to be fair even when zerging in WvWvW I felt as if the skill only gave me a saving grace for 4s only to be jumped on immediately again…

Then again, I never WvWvW much, and in PvP you do not get hit enough to make it worthwhile, even Adrenal Surge helps me better

/shrugs

until:

• turrets are no longer immune to crit damage and conditions
• incendiary powder no longer passively gives incredibly high uptime on the strongest condition in the game
• kit swapping requires actual cooldown management
• celestial is rebalanced
• you can no longer stack/retain ridiculous amounts of might
• aoe spam is punished

engineer will continue to be the most broken profession in spvp.

sinject.4607:

until:

• turrets are no longer immune to crit damage and conditions

Eh, sure, I could agree with that. As long as we rebalanced their HP/Armor to compensate.

sinject.4607:

• incendiary powder no longer passively gives incredibly high uptime on the strongest condition in the game

Although I agree the trait should be replaced with something else, because it is far to passive, burning it is by far not the strongest condition. The fact that it does not stack in intensity allows me alone, to do more damage with confusion, bleeding, or torment

sinject.4607:

• kit swapping requires actual cooldown management

Sure, as soon as every other profession you play has to lose the option to weapon swap.

sinject.4607:

• celestial is rebalanced

Sorry, but not only does this have nothing to do with singling out the engineer, you completely failed to even remotely justify mentioning it.

sinject.4607:

• you can no longer stack/retain ridiculous amounts of might

Sure, as long as thieves can no longer spam stealth.

sinject.4607:

• aoe spam is punished

Problem solved. We already have this, it is called retaliation.

sinject.4607:

engineer will continue to be the most broken profession in spvp.

I do not think broken means what you think it means.

If engineers are so broken, why has one never one the KotH 1v1 tourney, any of the 2v2 tourneys, and is the 3rd least played profession in the high end tPvP tournaments?

Random claims with no applied justification, are just that, random and unjustified exclamations. You make enough of them, and you simply develop a reputation as a poster whose post should be looked over immediately over looked by any dev that reads the forums. Well, on second thought, if your going to be so out in left field with your suggestion, please don’t bother offering a logical reasoning for them in your post.

Given some of your thoughts, I have to ask, how many hours have you spent on the engineer? What build do you run?

dancingmonkey.4902:

sinject.4607:

until:

• turrets are no longer immune to crit damage and conditions

Eh, sure, I could agree with that. As long as we rebalanced their HP/Armor to compensate.

sinject.4607:

• incendiary powder no longer passively gives incredibly high uptime on the strongest condition in the game

Although I agree the trait should be replaced with something else, because it is far to passive, burning it is by far not the strongest condition. The fact that it does not stack in intensity allows me alone, to do more damage with confusion, bleeding, or torment

sinject.4607:

• kit swapping requires actual cooldown management

Sure, as soon as every other profession you play has to lose the option to weapon swap.

sinject.4607:

• celestial is rebalanced

Sorry, but not only does this have nothing to do with singling out the engineer, you completely failed to even remotely justify mentioning it.

sinject.4607:

• you can no longer stack/retain ridiculous amounts of might

Sure, as long as thieves can no longer spam stealth.

sinject.4607:

• aoe spam is punished

Problem solved. We already have this, it is called retaliation.

sinject.4607:

engineer will continue to be the most broken profession in spvp.

I do not think broken means what you think it means.

If engineers are so broken, why has one never one the KotH 1v1 tourney, any of the 2v2 tourneys, and is the 3rd least played profession in the high end tPvP tournaments?

all you did was deflect left and right instead of addressing the actual points, as you usually do.

burning is the strongest condition that only requires a single application to do full damage. 1 hit = ~7 instant and simultaneous stacks of bleed. balthazaar runes further exaggerates the damage of burning beyond where it needs to be.

your kit argument is terrible at best given elementalist exists; they have actual cooldowns on attunement swapping and they seem to be doing just fine. I’m not saying that should be applied 1:1 on kits but you shouldnt be able to freely and mindlessly switch between kits without punishment for it when literally every other profession can’t.

i never said celestial was a problem specific to engineer. that doesn’t change the fact that engineer and elementalist are the biggest offenders when it comes to exploiting celestial.

comparing might stacking to stealth is again an incredibly poor argument. again, here we find elementalist and engineer are the biggest offenders because of how might affects both condition damage and power; this coupled with how easily both of those professions can stack/maintain high levels of might makes them further able to exploit celestial unlike other professions.
stealth on the other hand is a directly counterable defensive mechanic. to even be able to make stealth even worth using you have to fully invest in a traitline that offers no offensive bonuses save for mediocre might feeds and then sacrifice most of your utility to skills that have high cooldowns, then you have to remain in stealth to actually get the sustain. and on top of that, stealth cancels any contribution to points, making using it further unviable in spvp.

using your own logic of “if it’s not in esports it’s bad” proves stealth and shadow arts is bad, while celestial+might stacking is anything but.

speaking of which i have no what you mean, the winners of the ToL2 NA finals ran two engineers (while 75% of the 8 teams in the overall finals ran an engineer), the winners of ToL2 EU were the only team in the finals to run an engineer out of the 4, and engineers are constantly in top places in most 1v1 tourneys.

also retal doesn’t retaliate for condition application at all, and is not something all professions have access to.

So what is the might stacking meta engi build people are talking about atm? Engi can stack lots of might though I havent seen many engi that runs a spec that do so.

sinject.4607:

all you did was deflect left and right instead of addressing the actual points, as you usually do.

Well, you offered no logical arguments with witch to, uh, well, argue.

sinject.4607:

burning is the strongest condition that only requires a single application to do full damage. 1 hit = ~7 instant and simultaneous stacks of bleed. balthazaar runes further exaggerates the damage of burning beyond where it needs to be.

If I can do more damage with bleeding then burning with nothing more then elixir gun auto attack, I hardly call burn the strongest condition. Especially since it doesn’t stack in intensity.

sinject.4607:

your kit argument is terrible at best given elementalist exists; they have actual cooldowns on attunement swapping and they seem to be doing just fine. I’m not saying that should be applied 1:1 on kits but you shouldnt be able to freely and mindlessly switch between kits without punishment for it when literally every other profession can’t.

No, my argument was actually very reasonable. You offered no argument at all as to why it should be changed. I do not understand your comparison here to eles. Engineers sacrifice a utility slot for them, eles do not.

sinject.4607:

i never said celestial was a problem specific to engineer. that doesn’t change the fact that engineer and elementalist are the biggest offenders when it comes to exploiting celestial.

Yeah actually you did. When you use it to specifically proclaim it justifies an nerf to a profession, that is precisely what it means.

sinject.4607:

stealth on the other hand is a directly counterable defensive mechanic.

And might is an a directly counterable offensive mechanic. Your a thief, boon strip it.

sinject.4607:

using your own logic of “if it’s not in esports it’s bad” proves stealth and shadow arts is bad, while celestial+might stacking is anything but.

Thank you for acknowledging, I am using logic. Unfortunately, it appears to me you chose not to in that particular comparison.

sinject.4607:

speaking of which i have no what you mean, the winners of the ToL2 NA finals ran two engineers (while 75% of the 8 teams in the overall finals ran an engineer), the winners of ToL2 EU were the only team in the finals to run an engineer out of the 4, and engineers are constantly in top places in most 1v1 tourneys.

Your math is inaccurate. I have already counted the professional spread on the teams. You are either intentionally exaggerating, or being dishonest.

sinject.4607:

also retal doesn’t retaliate for condition application at all, and is not something all professions have access to.

Actually, it is an unarguable fact that retal does retaliate for conditions application.

What does whether or not all professions have access to hit have to do with anything? There are lots of counters and skills that not all professions have access to. Not everyone can boon strip or stealth like a thief. Stealth’s counter is reveal. If we are discussing removing things that all professions do not have access to the counter of, should we remove stealth?

So, I see you dodge the question about how many hours you have on engineer? Or what build do you run?

Care to answer that so that we may understand where your coming from?

Some of us found it wise to spend a few hundred hours on other professions before we blindly condemn them and request odd nerfs, while refusing to list a logical path of justification for them.

dancingmonkey.4902:

sinject.4607:

all you did was deflect left and right instead of addressing the actual points, as you usually do.

Well, you offered no logical arguments with witch to, uh, well, argue.

If I can do more damage with bleeding then burning with nothing more then elixir gun auto attack, I hardly call burn the strongest condition. Especially since it doesn’t stack in intensity.

No, my argument was actually very reasonable. You offered no argument at all as to why it should be changed. I do not understand your comparison here to eles. Engineers sacrifice a utility slot for them, eles do not.

Yeah actually you did. When you use it to specifically proclaim it justifies an nerf to a profession, that is precisely what it means.

And might is an a directly counterable offensive mechanic. Your a thief, boon strip it.

Thank you for acknowledging, I am using logic. Unfortunately, it appears to me you chose not to in that particular comparison.

Your math is inaccurate. I have already counted the professional spread on the teams. You are either intentionally exaggerating, or being dishonest.

Actually, it is an unarguable fact that retal does retaliate for conditions application.

What does whether or not all professions have access to hit have to do with anything? There are lots of counters and skills that not all professions have access to. Not everyone can boon strip or stealth like a thief. Stealth’s counter is reveal. If we are discussing removing things that all professions do not have access to the counter of, should we remove stealth?

So, I see you dodge the question about how many hours you have on engineer? Or what build do you run?

Care to answer that so that we may understand where your coming from?

Some of us found it wise to spend a few hundred hours on other professions before we blindly condemn them and request odd nerfs, while refusing to list a logical path of justification for them.

my math for how many grand finalist teams ran an engineer is not inaccurate (feel free to prove it wrong) and neither is the fact that the winning team for NA ran two engineers and EU were the only team to run one out of the four semifinalists. if im dishonest for using facts to prove your anecdotal exaggeration wrong you’re something else entirely then. if you think i’m wrong in using your own argument to prove something then you obviously have to look at your own argument first instead of deciding “well i dont like the way you applied that so it no longer counts”.

funny thing is the main the nerfs i’m calling for towards the actual profession you agree with, while the other two gear issues (celestial/might stacking) are widely agreed on to be problematic and instead of actually countering those arguments you go on a tangent based on what you thought was a direct attack on engineer alone. instead of discussing the topic you dance around it. your username suddenly makes a lot more sense now.

and s/d thief can no longer reliably boonstrip, especially when going against professions that are likely to always have 2-4 boons minimum and have multiple blocks like engineer, s/d thief has been castrated by countless “minor” nerfs and will probably only continue to be nerfed or just left in the dirt. even if there were going to be changes to bring the set back into prime viability i think it’s safe to say we wont see those until september 2015. that being said, please let me know when there’s a debuff for might or other boons that prevents you from stacking/reapplying any more for 3-4 seconds.

also you missed my point on retal and conditions completely, while retal might affect condition application it circumvents retal in any further damage from the actual condition ticks, which is where most of the damage is going to be coming from usually (also still waiting for a condition equivalent to protection).

and no, i don’t play engineer and never have. don’t plan to and don’t want to. absolutely nothing exciting about engineer to me whatsoever. I’ve played every other profession except necro, have plenty of friends who play engineer, played against/dueled against countless engineers, learned the inner workings of engineer by watching high level players/friends play to learn how to beat them; everything but play one- and out of self-respect alone i never will.

sinject.4607:

my math for how many grand finalist teams ran an engineer is not inaccurate (feel free to prove it wrong) and neither is the fact that the winning team for NA ran two engineers and EU were the only team to run one out of the four semifinalists. if im dishonest for using facts to prove your anecdotal exaggeration wrong you’re something else entirely then. if you think i’m wrong in using your own argument to prove something then you obviously have to look at your own argument first instead of deciding “well i dont like the way you applied that so it no longer counts”.

I am curious, you offered up a number and proclaimed it as fact. I am neither going to suggest it is accurate nor inaccurate. I would though, ask where you get your number from. Would you mind linking us your source. The list I used, shows more in NA and many less in EU, and even less then that in China. Are you suggesting NA which is only 1/3 of the teams in tournaments, can be used to base your argument? You are making the accusation of “anecdotal”, yet is using NA alone to represent the entirety of the comparative community the definition of “anecdotal” ?

As far as I can tell one of you is claiming one thing, the other is claiming something different. Unless one of you proves it, neither of you have a leg to stand on. They are simply opposing, but unproven claims.

sinject.4607:

funny thing is the main the nerfs i’m calling for towards the actual profession you agree with, while the other two gear issues (celestial/might stacking) are widely agreed on to be problematic and instead of actually countering those arguments you go on a tangent based on what you thought was a direct attack on engineer alone. instead of discussing the topic you dance around it. your username suddenly makes a lot more sense now.

Define widely please? Personally, all I have seen is a very small group spamming post and spamming threads, while cross posting between the threads. Again, for someone who cries fowl and claims “anecdotal”, that is, in my opinion, what your suggestion here appears as.

sinject.4607:

and s/d thief can no longer reliably boonstrip, especially when going against professions that are likely to always have 2-4 boons minimum and have multiple blocks like engineer, s/d thief has been castrated by countless “minor” nerfs and will probably only continue to be nerfed or just left in the dirt. even if there were going to be changes to bring the set back into prime viability i think it’s safe to say we wont see those until september 2015. that being said, please let me know when there’s a debuff for might or other boons that prevents you from stacking/reapplying any more for 3-4 seconds.

Why is it thieves can no longer remove boons? Did they remove Larcenous Strike from S/D ? Did they remove the Bountiful Theft trait?

Why would someone “let you know” when there is a debuff that prevents a player from applying boons? What does that have to do with your suggestion that engineers are OP. It behooves everyone if you stick to the topic at hand.

sinject.4607:

also you missed my point on retal and conditions completely, while retal might affect condition application it circumvents retal in any further damage from the actual condition ticks, which is where most of the damage is going to be coming from usually (also still waiting for a condition equivalent to protection).

I am having difficulty understanding your recent post about retaliation. Let me assist you, by explaining how it works. Retaliation gives a specific amount of damage back to the caster of the skill. All, skills, condition or direct damage. In general, direct damage is all applied at once, and condition damage is applied over time. With condition cleanses factored in, both direct damage and condition damage are reasonably congruent. None of which changes that retaliation effects a skill when it lands, regardless of whether the damage is direct or condition.

sinject.4607:

and no, i don’t play engineer and never have. don’t plan to and don’t want to. absolutely nothing exciting about engineer to me whatsoever. I’ve played every other profession except necro, have plenty of friends who play engineer, played against/dueled against countless engineers, learned the inner workings of engineer by watching high level players/friends play to learn how to beat them; everything but play one- and out of self-respect alone i never will.

To be fair though, you really shouldn’t suggest you know the ins and outs of a profession you never played. It really works strongly against your point. More so, when you post seem to be very representative of someone who does not understand the majority of the profession.

This whole idea that Engineers aren’t popular in the competitive scene is some kind of ludicrous fantasy belonging only to the forum warriors. The class has been well-represented since just after the beta buffs and in fact the only reason Necromancers got Dhuumfire was that you couldn’t run a team-built Necro without an Engineer so they’d actually do some semblance of damage.

It is slightly less popular on EU than on NA but then (for example) there are a few competitive EU Rangers and none on NA so the door swings both ways really.

sinject.4607:

no, i don’t play engineer and never have.

That explains a lot. Thanks for your honesty.

sinject.4607:

absolutely nothing exciting about engineer to me whatsoever.

If it is so unremarkable, why do you make post over post on multiple threads attacking the profession?

sinject.4607:

learned the inner workings of engineer by watching high level players/friends play to learn how to beat them;

Clearly not. See the first line quoted above as evidence.

sinject.4607:

everything but play one- and out of self-respect alone i never will.

How does arguing from a perspective of knowledge and experience harm your self respect? I would think speaking out of a total lack first hand knowledge and complete inexperience would be more detrimental to ones self respect.

shimmerless.4560:

This whole idea that Engineers aren’t popular in the competitive scene is some kind of ludicrous fantasy belonging only to the forum warriors. The class has been well-represented since just after the beta buffs and in fact the only reason Necromancers got Dhuumfire was that you couldn’t run a team-built Necro without an Engineer so they’d actually do some semblance of damage.

It is slightly less popular on EU than on NA but then (for example) there are a few competitive EU Rangers and none on NA so the door swings both ways really.

As far as I can tell, no one is claiming they are not popular. It appeared to me the only argument was the percentage.

What do you mean “beta buffs”?

Do you have a link to an official statement about that being reasoning for dhuumfire? All of the official post I can find imply it has to do with specific community outcry to give necromancers access to burning.

Gotta say, dancingmonkey totally correct in this thread.

Moderator removed my post without leaving the part that didn’t address the removed quote…

For the people who want kits to have longer cooldowns: How do you intend to compensate the loss of engineer utility now that they need to lose a utility skill to regain their missing weapon swap?

For those complaining about Celestial gear: Why is this a problem with the gear and not with Might? The only actual argument I’ve seen cites Might stacking as the reason for this being overpowered due to disproportionate offensive power.

For those complaining about IP: I’ve never actually seen anyone who likes the mechanic, come to think of it.

For ANet Devs: Why was set mixing removed from PvP? Build variety suffers when you can’t choose your stat distribution.

You can’t just give kits cooldowns, move them from utility to a mechanic like attunements and call it a day. They weren’t designed to work like that.
While a good reason, taking up utility slots isn’t why kits have 1s cooldown. Engineers have horrible autoattacks. All that skill spamming people qq about is because there is no other viable choice.
The kits’ skills are a mess outside bomb/grenade and even those are situational. You do need them all to be decent.
Any change to the way kits work would render the class useless.
Conditions and hard cc are still a big issue. Immobilize is death but that applies to many classes.
Terror necro still hard counters. The many fears you can’t avoid are totally balanced. Dagger #4 has pathing issues which makes it undodgeable sometimes. Staff #4 has indeed a distinct look. Good luck noticing it. It’s very hard in 1vs1 and outright impossible in team fights.

In lots of cases engi and else fill the same roles but ele meta builds have access to stab, more boons, condi removal, multiple stun breaks, and better mobility.

Engi meta builds mostly have one stun break and very limited condi removal they are so easy to pin down in team fights. Honestly it requires a lot more effort staying alive as an engi vs other profs.

vincecontix.1264:

In lots of cases engi and else fill the same roles but ele meta builds have access to stab, more boons, condi removal, multiple stun breaks, and better mobility.

Engi meta builds mostly have one stun break and very limited condi removal they are so easy to pin down in team fights. Honestly it requires a lot more effort staying alive as an engi vs other profs.

Yes, running around with permanent swiftness (and until recently permanent vigor), two blocks on sub-30 second cooldowns that don’t cause a root and armor, healing and passives out the wazoo is very difficult compared to us peons playing faceroll classes. 3-kit Engineer really is the “endgame class”, it’s just so micro-heavy and high risk, much wow.

shimmerless.4560:

vincecontix.1264:

In lots of cases engi and else fill the same roles but ele meta builds have access to stab, more boons, condi removal, multiple stun breaks, and better mobility.

Engi meta builds mostly have one stun break and very limited condi removal they are so easy to pin down in team fights. Honestly it requires a lot more effort staying alive as an engi vs other profs.

Yes, running around with permanent swiftness (and until recently permanent vigor), two blocks on sub-30 second cooldowns that don’t cause a root and armor, healing and passives out the wazoo is very difficult compared to us peons playing faceroll classes. 3-kit Engineer really is the “endgame class”, it’s just so micro-heavy and high risk, much wow.

Listing all of the engineers strengths isn’t really helping your case. Ele and warriors who fill the exact same role has blocks + immunities on top of insane sustain from both active and passive. They also have access to stability and multiple condi clears. Engi played well can be resilient as well but will never be on par with those two classes.

But by all means keep pretending engi is stronger than the classes you play. I bet you either a thief,ele or warrior main.

engi itself isn’t OP in a lot of situation. It is fine in WvW and it is fine in PvE.

Certain specs are completely OP in PvP though. Turrets still need a big nerf. I also think grenades are too strong.

style.6173:

engi itself isn’t OP in a lot of situation. It is fine in WvW and it is fine in PvE.

Certain specs are completely OP in PvP though. Turrets still need a big nerf. I also think grenades are too strong.

You know what? I’m not going to go on my ‘blame it on the game mode, which disproportionately rewards exactly what Turrets and Turret Builds are good for’ rant.

Instead, I’m going to suggest a ground-up rework of Turrets, because otherwise they’re going to perpetually be in this stupid bloody zone of ‘Too good at beginner sPvP, not very good anywhere else.’ Nerfing them because of one mode kills them everywhere else – but buffing them because of everywhere else has effects on the one mode where they aren’t crap. Splitting balance between PvP and PvE is something Anet has already stated they don’t want to do, so that’s not likely to happen, leaving ‘just scrap the set and make them anew’ floating there.

Anybody got any ideas? I’ve seen ‘they only fire when told to,’ ‘overcharges make them explode afterward,’ and a few others. Some of them focused on one interpretation of Turrets or another (disposable vs fortification, for example), but I’m not really sure Turrets as they are now can be adjusted in a way to not take incidental advantage of a stale game mode with limited, at best, options for success.
I think I’ve also seen at least one where they suggested making them into an ‘attachment’ weapon that basically functions as an additional Weapon Skill (Turret is used, Turret visibly equips onto shoulder or something), which could be interesting, or maybe replacing them with a Signet-like skillset based on the concept of Armor Mods.

Bit of detail on these ideas (and yes, these would involve some heavy-duty restructuring of traits):

• Additional Weapon Skill interpretation: Turret can be activated to be ‘equipped,’ lasts for a duration/number of attacks (much like Conjures or the Charrzooka), and then unequips (explosively, with Accelerant-Packed Turrets) automatically. A visual effect and buff icon should indicate that the user has a Turret ‘mounted.’ Charge count and cooldown would vary based on Turret.
  Turrets would not attack automatically; instead, their fire rate would be converted into a cooldown, and the Utility slot would be used to activate the attack. The attacks would be similar to Surprise Shot, in that the user has no animation and can use them simultaneously with other attacks, but would have a ‘tell’ similar to current Overcharges (a glow and a sound effect, lasting for a short time, as well as a buff icon, just to make sure).
  Overcharges would consume a number of the remaining ‘charges,’ and be set to the Toolbelt. Their effects would be identical to current overcharges, with the exception of Rifle Turret, which would fire until the Overcharge wore off. When Overcharges go on cooldown, the Toolbelt slot is replaced with either the ‘Undeployed’ Turret Toolbelt or Detonate (with a one-second cooldown, similar to Kit swap cooldowns).
  When Turrets were not ‘equipped,’ the Toolbelt skills would remain just as they are now.

• Armor Mods interpretation: Each Turret is treated as a technological Signet, granting Passive effects or stat bonuses based on the Turret’s regular attacks, with the Active being akin to the Overcharge effect of the Turret, possibly affecting the user’s next attack. Toolbelts would remain as they are.

If you nerfed IP you would have to increase the damage of every weapon and skill the engie has to make up for it as offensive engie would not be possible. It would take a major rework.

It is so powerful, the best solution might be to make it a GM trait.

shimmerless.4560:

Yes, running around with permanent swiftness (and until recently permanent vigor), two blocks on sub-30 second cooldowns that don’t cause a root and armor, healing and passives out the wazoo is very difficult compared to us peons playing faceroll classes. 3-kit Engineer really is the “endgame class”, it’s just so micro-heavy and high risk, much wow.

Literally this. Having more skills to spam doesn’t make the class more challenging like everyone seems to believe.

I always find it comical how posters try to throw the word “spam” around when they are trying to put down another profession in the “X profession is OP” threads. As if you are not constantly spamming weapons skills, heals, utilities, elites, and dodges, on every single profession in every fight.

Relentliss.2170:

If you nerfed IP you would have to increase the damage of every weapon and skill the engie has to make up for it as offensive engie would not be possible. It would take a major rework.

It is so powerful, the best solution might be to make it a GM trait.

why do engineers get so worked up over the thought of having to choose between offensive or defensive viability like every other profession?

swapping it to GM won’t do anything and that’s why you want it: all meta engie builds have 6 points in explosives, and trading off the extra nade range or shorter bomb fuses for IP wouldn’t even take a second thought.

and now I wait for the standard “b-but engineer is weak to condition necro” routine,

You are completely incorrect. It would completely change the explosive options. I am curious, as I have noticed in two previous threads, you specifically mention you avoid playing the profession. Why do you feel you have the insight to know what those who do play will chose? Keep in mind, I ask that as a player of the profession, who is against IP being crit proc of long duration. How much damage do you seriously think IP does in a defensive style build, since you brought it up?

Admittedly though, I am somewhat curious about what you feel the IP discussion has to do with necromancers being innately solid against engineers due to the engineer being limited in terms of condition removal. The subjects are irrelevant to one another.

sinject.4607:

trading off the extra nade range

See, if you played the class, you’d know that the Grenadier trait doesn’t just add range – it adds an extra grenade to each Grenade Kit attack, and gives an extra grenade to Grenade Barrage, too.
Untraited Grenade Kit, as a result of having a trait that gives it a range buff and additional Grenade, is balanced in such a way that it’s not really worth using if you don’t have the Grenadier trait to begin with.
Wiki link: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenadier

sinject.4607:

or shorter bomb fuses

You would also know that Short Fuse is only a Master trait, and thus is something that’s already often disregarded in favor of Incendiary Powder, which is, of course, currently a Master trait.
Wiki link: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Fuse

You should really at least check the wiki before trying to say what Engineers would or would not do, and what their options would or would not be.

That said, forcing a choice between Grenadier and Incendiary Powder would do a lot more than you think – one grants every Grenade Kit skill an additional chance to proc something, in addition to increasing damage, target cap (indirectly), and range.
The other grants every damaging attack a chance to inflict Burning, as long as it crits. That might actually be a tough decision to make.

shimmerless.4560:

vincecontix.1264:

In lots of cases engi and else fill the same roles but ele meta builds have access to stab, more boons, condi removal, multiple stun breaks, and better mobility.

Engi meta builds mostly have one stun break and very limited condi removal they are so easy to pin down in team fights. Honestly it requires a lot more effort staying alive as an engi vs other profs.

Yes, running around with permanent swiftness (and until recently permanent vigor), two blocks on sub-30 second cooldowns that don’t cause a root and armor, healing and passives out the wazoo is very difficult compared to us peons playing faceroll classes. 3-kit Engineer really is the “endgame class”, it’s just so micro-heavy and high risk, much wow.

Wow perma swiftness is op now?
And jes engi is the endgame class or do you disagree? Honestly?
Its by far the most challenging class in gw2 period. And no matter what you build, you will always have really huge disadvantages unlike some other classes.

Anymras.5729:

sinject.4607:

trading off the extra nade range

See, if you played the class, you’d know that the Grenadier trait doesn’t just add range – it adds an extra grenade to each Grenade Kit attack, and gives an extra grenade to Grenade Barrage, too.
Untraited Grenade Kit, as a result of having a trait that gives it a range buff and additional Grenade, is balanced in such a way that it’s not really worth using if you don’t have the Grenadier trait to begin with.
Wiki link: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenadier

sinject.4607:

or shorter bomb fuses

You would also know that Short Fuse is only a Master trait, and thus is something that’s already often disregarded in favor of Incendiary Powder, which is, of course, currently a Master trait.
Wiki link: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Fuse

You should really at least check the wiki before trying to say what Engineers would or would not do, and what their options would or would not be.

That said, forcing a choice between Grenadier and Incendiary Powder would do a lot more than you think – one grants every Grenade Kit skill an additional chance to proc something, in addition to increasing damage, target cap (indirectly), and range.
The other grants every damaging attack a chance to inflict Burning, as long as it crits. That might actually be a tough decision to make.

grenades are mostly for close distance aoe spam and you’ll hear every engineer in the game tell you how “easily avoidable” grenades are at range meaning the range increase will not be missed all that much when engineer already heavily relies on IP for ranged encounters with p/s or rifle in the first place, meaning the true value of the trait lies in the extra nade that it gives for more coverage when mindlessly throwing grenades at your feet.

then we have short fuse. guess what, the bomb kit variant of the engie 6/0/0/6/2 meta build wouldn’t be affected at all since it’s standard practice to take short fuse in the GM trait spot and IP in the master trait spot meaning all you’d be doing is switching the two’s places. either you knew this and are trying to discredit me by creating a strawman argument or you yourself don’t know your own profession; either option not being good for your credibility in the slightest.

I find it interesting that you claimed to refuse to ever play an engineer, yet you will inaccurately claim to know what the engineer community thinks, and presume to speak for them.

Grenades at max range will absolutely hit player on keep walls, hit siege, hit players from keep walls, hit player fighting on a point, hit world bosses, hit players distracted by other fights, hit players who do not see you coming, all at max range. So you are being very deceptive and dishonest in your representation of claiming what they community wants. Particularly considering how you claim to avoid being part of that community. The only time they are so easily avoided at max range generally, is in 1v1 open field battles. So please stop using a hyperbole that misrepresents the facts.

You might as well give up on using the word “we” as well. Considering that you clearly stated you hate the profession and will never play it, in a previous thread. I am more then open to hear your opinion. Heck I even agree with you about IP being problematic. But if you want to be taken seriously, you have to speak at least with limited experience or on the basis of actual fact, and not hyperbole and hearsay.

sinject.4607:

Anymras.5729:

sinject.4607:

trading off the extra nade range

See, if you played the class, you’d know that the Grenadier trait doesn’t just add range – it adds an extra grenade to each Grenade Kit attack, and gives an extra grenade to Grenade Barrage, too.
Untraited Grenade Kit, as a result of having a trait that gives it a range buff and additional Grenade, is balanced in such a way that it’s not really worth using if you don’t have the Grenadier trait to begin with.
Wiki link: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenadier

sinject.4607:

or shorter bomb fuses

You would also know that Short Fuse is only a Master trait, and thus is something that’s already often disregarded in favor of Incendiary Powder, which is, of course, currently a Master trait.
Wiki link: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Fuse

You should really at least check the wiki before trying to say what Engineers would or would not do, and what their options would or would not be.

That said, forcing a choice between Grenadier and Incendiary Powder would do a lot more than you think – one grants every Grenade Kit skill an additional chance to proc something, in addition to increasing damage, target cap (indirectly), and range.
The other grants every damaging attack a chance to inflict Burning, as long as it crits. That might actually be a tough decision to make.

grenades are mostly for close distance aoe spam and you’ll hear every engineer in the game tell you how “easily avoidable” grenades are at range meaning the range increase will not be missed all that much when engineer already heavily relies on IP for ranged encounters with p/s or rifle in the first place, meaning the true value of the trait lies in the extra nade that it gives for more coverage when mindlessly throwing grenades at your feet.

then we have short fuse. guess what, the bomb kit variant of the engie 6/0/0/6/2 meta build wouldn’t be affected at all since it’s standard practice to take short fuse in the GM trait spot and IP in the master trait spot meaning all you’d be doing is switching the two’s places. either you knew this and are trying to discredit me by creating a strawman argument or you yourself don’t know your own profession; either option not being good for your credibility in the slightest.

Oh, the bomb kit variant might be less affected, largely because there’s not really a particularly attractive trait for it in Grandmaster – but it would affect at least one of the big builds, and that’s a start. If you were actually aware that Short Fuse was a Master trait, I apologize; your phrasing, and your apparent lack of awareness of the other part of Grenadier, gave me the impression that you weren’t.

Also, totally still going to point out that Grenadier does things besides increase Range, since you apparently missed that, given that you’re going right back to saying things about the range increase not being that important.
Grenade Kit is balanced around Grenadier for a reason, and that reason is more likely the extra grenade than the extra range.

I’m not even sure where you’re coming from with this ‘strawman’ thing; all I did was point out that you didn’t seem to realize that Grenadier is a massive deal for Grenade Kit, and that Incendiary Powder becoming a Grandmaster would actually do something about that. Strawman arguments tend to base themselves on hyperbolic interpretations of the others’ arguments, and I’m pretty sure I didn’t use any.