Guild Wars 2

Those would be the following:

1. Thieves’ Shadow refuge is now a elite skill with 150 seconds cooldown.
2. Warrior’s healing signet nerfed to absolute oblivion.
3. Necro’s dhuumfire deleted.
4. Ele’s Blinding flash (scepter 3) cooldown increased to 15 from 10.
5. Mesmer’s flawed design completely reworked.

Obviously they would be buffed back in other areas in most cases.

Why do I feel that these need nerfs?

1. Shadow refuge doesn’t make sense as a normal utility skill. It brings too much to the board in terms of utility, offense and defense. Resets fights, provide healing, cancel stomps, allow easy revives, etc. It simply allows thieves to get away with a lot of things that they shouldn’t in the first place.
>>Make the stealth stack faster as an elite and increase the healing, maybe make it give protection too. It’s an ability that absolutely takes no skill or judgment on when to use at any time and has to go.

2. Off the top of my head, other 2 classes have signet abilities that provide healing under a certain circumstance. Elementalists have to cast abilities and thieves have to hit things. Warriors in the other hand don’t need to do anything, they get healed anyway. Not to mention that on top of warriors’ already high toughness and armor, the effective HP they regen is actually much higher when compared to thieves, eles, or any class with heal (oh warriors can also get regen on top of it!).
Just grossly overpowered. This skill needs to go right away.
>>Perhaps make the passive heal scale on adrenaline or something. Give it at least a condition needed for it to proc that way, just like eles and thieves do.

3. Necros have access to every single DoT condition in the game on top of cripple, chill, vulnerability, immobilize, weakness and the rare fear. I’ve never been aware of necros balance that much, all I knew is that they were subpar and then suddenly top tier. Surely dhuumfire wasn’t the cause I hope? I’ve read that they’re reworking it to put it on life blast, I hope that’s the case.
>>No buffs.

4. I love eles, but this is too much. The scepter, fresh air burst build lacks counterplay. Most if not all classes have a way of predicting enemy skill usage. You can dodge a mesmer’s berserker or a warrior’s bull’s rush, you can even somewhat predict a stealthed thief backstab attack to some point. Scepter eles however have a ridiculous and instant skill rotation (on a 5 seconds cooldown!) that makes it hard to predict appropiately, add in a spammable blind to reduce your counterplay chances even lower.
>>Give blinding flash some damage to compensate. I know it’s useful to blind mobs in pve without entering combat but it’s either that or nothing.

5. Mesmers… ahh mesmers. I feel sorry for the “skilled” mesmer players but here’s the truth: Your class is fundamentally broken. Before you say it, I don’t have a problem recognizing who’s the ‘real’ clone or dodging their most obvious skills. The issue here is that fighting them is just a pain. You gotta pay attention to over 5 different things at all times while fighting them, and it’s just one player. They can slowly whittle you down by being persistent, because the never ending stream of spammy clones and phantasms will surely outlast you in the long run. Add the myriad of stealth choices that they have for more frustrating gameplay and disengages at will (those are stun breakers too! all while their clones are mashing you with conditions).
In closing mesmers are the most obnoxious class in the game with very limited counterplay options especially in their condition builds. Destroying their clones is pointless because they generate more with ease due to traits / weapon skills, and because doing so also gets you swimming in conditions. Not destroying them still gets you spammed with conditions due to their autoattacks and now also with the constant risk of a shatter combo (not to mention that not all classes have enough aoe damage to get rid of them, namely necros, rangers and thieves), basically every second you spend getting rid of the clones, is 1 extra second that the real mesmer gets to fire free shots at you with no retaliation. Phantasms and their cooldowns that start as soon as they’re casted instead of starting when they’re destroyed. Built in stun breakers in weapon skills… sigh. A terribly designed class with an overloaded kit in terms of defense, offense and utility.

I hope they get nerfed.

good thing that no one cares. here, have this, easy to play, no op stuff
http://www.thesims3.com/

PRAISE THE LORD for you are not in the balance team, then!

Obvious thief players lol.

1. Thieves’ Shadow refuge is now a elite skill with 150 seconds cooldown.
in that case make thieves guild a utility with a 60s cd. fair trade.

2. Warrior’s healing signet nerfed to absolute oblivion.
im ok with this.

3. Necro’s dhuumfire deleted.
Yes!!!!! for the love of god do this!
I cant wait for all the bad necro’s to cry. (must revert all nerfs due to this trait)

1. It’s good but Elite… really?
I usually just drop AoE on it…

2. Dunno too much about Warriors.

3. I don’t get everyone’s beef with this trait.
Many Necros say it’s useless, doesn’t fit the theme and should be replaced with something useful while many non-Necros complain that it’s op.
Personally I think it’s alright. Anet is moving it into Life Blast it would seem.
Seems like an odd change but okay.
Personally I’d rather have them double it’s duration and make Doom inflict it instead.
Doom has 20sec cooldown so removing the Burning would mean no more fire for 20 seconds, and not removing it would be a bad idea.

4. I don’t see why, many seem to regard Eles as easy pray as is.

5. Mesmers are very tricky to fight against, but the general idea is you wanna ignore Illusions and destroy the Phantasms.
The Phantasms do a truckton of damage, whereas Illusions only do so when shattered.
I do hate having to fight them, but I think it’s more due to my lack of skill what it comes to Mesmers than them being broken.
You really need to play one at least for a while to understand how to fight against one.

I think that might actually buff Thieves as it would allow them to get 3 utilities. Most Thief elites are rather bad anyway, so it wouldn’t be much of a loss.

Introp.8465:

good thing that no one cares. here, have this, easy to play, no op stuff
http://www.thesims3.com/

:/ I think there might even be some balance issues in that game too…

Might I suggest:
http://www.amazon.com/DDI-PADDLE-GAME-10-PADDLE-BALL/dp/B0006GK7TM
Just make sure the paddle is flat and smooth and the ball is round as well. That game requires no patches, has about the same reward as chasing ascended armor, and the same challenge of rolling someone in WvW… it actually increases in difficulty the faster you go (it scales with your skills! just like fracts), so arguably it’s harder.

LastDay.3524:

1. It’s good but Elite… really?
I usually just drop AoE on it…

2. Dunno too much about Warriors.

3. I don’t get everyone’s beef with this trait.
Many Necros say it’s useless, doesn’t fit the theme and should be replaced with something useful while many non-Necros complain that it’s op.
Personally I think it’s alright. Anet is moving it into Life Blast it would seem.
Seems like an odd change but okay.
Personally I’d rather have them double it’s duration and make Doom inflict it instead.
Doom has 20sec cooldown so removing the Burning would mean no more fire for 20 seconds, and not removing it would be a bad idea.

4. I don’t see why, many seem to regard Eles as easy pray as is.

5. Mesmers are very tricky to fight against, but the general idea is you wanna ignore Illusions and destroy the Phantasms.
The Phantasms do a truckton of damage, whereas Illusions only do so when shattered.
I do hate having to fight them, but I think it’s more due to my lack of skill what it comes to Mesmers than them being broken.
You really need to play one at least for a while to understand how to fight against one.

Looks like you’ve never fought a condition mesmer or whatever that build is called.

I normally don’t have issues against mesmers. My aoe can get rid of most of the trash they spam, but still that doesn’t mean they aren’t terribly designed.

Anyway I love how thieves get all mad about this change. Shadow refuge outclasses every single thief utility and is pretty much a must have in every case.

Razor.6392:

Those would be the following:

1. Thieves’ Shadow refuge is now a elite skill with 150 seconds cooldown.
2. Warrior’s healing signet nerfed to absolute oblivion.
3. Necro’s dhuumfire deleted.
4. Ele’s Blinding flash (scepter 3) cooldown increased to 15 from 10.
5. Mesmer’s flawed design completely reworked.

Obviously they would be buffed back in other areas in most cases.

Why do I feel that these need nerfs?

1. Shadow refuge doesn’t make sense as a normal utility skill. It brings too much to the board in terms of utility, offense and defense. Resets fights, provide healing, cancel stomps, allow easy revives, etc. It simply allows thieves to get away with a lot of things that they shouldn’t in the first place.
>>Make the stealth stack faster as an elite and increase the healing, maybe make it give protection too. It’s an ability that absolutely takes no skill or judgment on when to use at any time and has to go.

2. Off the top of my head, other 2 classes have signet abilities that provide healing under a certain circumstance. Elementalists have to cast abilities and thieves have to hit things. Warriors in the other hand don’t need to do anything, they get healed anyway. Not to mention that on top of warriors’ already high toughness and armor, the effective HP they regen is actually much higher when compared to thieves, eles, or any class with heal (oh warriors can also get regen on top of it!).
Just grossly overpowered. This skill needs to go right away.
>>Perhaps make the passive heal scale on adrenaline or something. Give it at least a condition needed for it to proc that way, just like eles and thieves do.

3. Necros have access to every single DoT condition in the game on top of cripple, chill, vulnerability, immobilize, weakness and the rare fear. I’ve never been aware of necros balance that much, all I knew is that they were subpar and then suddenly top tier. Surely dhuumfire wasn’t the cause I hope? I’ve read that they’re reworking it to put it on life blast, I hope that’s the case.
>>No buffs.

4. I love eles, but this is too much. The scepter, fresh air burst build lacks counterplay. Most if not all classes have a way of predicting enemy skill usage. You can dodge a mesmer’s berserker or a warrior’s bull’s rush, you can even somewhat predict a stealthed thief backstab attack to some point. Scepter eles however have a ridiculous and instant skill rotation (on a 5 seconds cooldown!) that makes it hard to predict appropiately, add in a spammable blind to reduce your counterplay chances even lower.
>>Give blinding flash some damage to compensate. I know it’s useful to blind mobs in pve without entering combat but it’s either that or nothing.

5. Mesmers… ahh mesmers. I feel sorry for the “skilled” mesmer players but here’s the truth: Your class is fundamentally broken. Before you say it, I don’t have a problem recognizing who’s the ‘real’ clone or dodging their most obvious skills. The issue here is that fighting them is just a pain. You gotta pay attention to over 5 different things at all times while fighting them, and it’s just one player. They can slowly whittle you down by being persistent, because the never ending stream of spammy clones and phantasms will surely outlast you in the long run. Add the myriad of stealth choices that they have for more frustrating gameplay and disengages at will (those are stun breakers too! all while their clones are mashing you with conditions).
In closing mesmers are the most obnoxious class in the game with very limited counterplay options especially in their condition builds. Destroying their clones is pointless because they generate more with ease due to traits / weapon skills, and because doing so also gets you swimming in conditions. Not destroying them still gets you spammed with conditions due to their autoattacks and now also with the constant risk of a shatter combo (not to mention that not all classes have enough aoe damage to get rid of them, namely necros, rangers and thieves), basically every second you spend getting rid of the clones, is 1 extra second that the real mesmer gets to fire free shots at you with no retaliation. Phantasms and their cooldowns that start as soon as they’re casted instead of starting when they’re destroyed. Built in stun breakers in weapon skills… sigh. A terribly designed class with an overloaded kit in terms of defense, offense and utility.

I hope they get nerfed.

I feel that every class on your list besides the mesmer doesn’t really have any other choice to be effective while not running those skills. I’m sorry but I think the only valid point you made is about the mesmer. I agree that it takes little to no skill at all to play mesmer because most of the fight is playing cat and mouse.

Razor.6392:

Anyway I love how thieves get all mad about this change. Shadow refuge outclasses every single thief utility and is pretty much a must have in every case.

SR is a good way to get yourself killed against decent players. Sorry that half of the thief utilities are buggy/useless. Maybe instead of nerfing one of the few decent ones, buff some of the others to be on par with it.

I would agree with you about the Mesmer if you weren’t completely wrong (funny how that works). That you say they have stun breaks on their weapons tells me you haven’t played one and don’t know a thing about them. Your problem is obvious even if you can’t see it. You’re unable to identify any particular mesmer build, thus you have no idea what to do when you come up against it. No doubt just spamming attacks and rotations on your ele isn’t working for you.

Simple solution: You need more practice.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Simple solution: You need more practice.

That’s a very nice and gentle way to say L2P . ^^

Ross Biddle.2367:

I would agree with you about the Mesmer if you weren’t completely wrong (funny how that works). That you say they have stun breaks on their weapons tells me you haven’t played one and don’t know a thing about them. Your problem is obvious even if you can’t see it. You’re unable to identify any particular mesmer build, thus you have no idea what to do when you come up against it. No doubt just spamming attacks and rotations on your ele isn’t working for you.

Simple solution: You need more practice.

Do you know how staff 2 works?

Perhaps you are the one who needs more practice, you don’t even know how your basic skills work bro.

Razor.6392:

Ross Biddle.2367:

I would agree with you about the Mesmer if you weren’t completely wrong (funny how that works). That you say they have stun breaks on their weapons tells me you haven’t played one and don’t know a thing about them. Your problem is obvious even if you can’t see it. You’re unable to identify any particular mesmer build, thus you have no idea what to do when you come up against it. No doubt just spamming attacks and rotations on your ele isn’t working for you.

Simple solution: You need more practice.

Do you know how staff 2 works?

Perhaps you are the one who needs more practice, you don’t even know how your basic skills work bro.

Staff 2 is a short range blink away from the target. Staff is also a passive aggressive, defensive weapon with unreliable condition application. It’s a weak offensive weapon and in terms of how afraid an opponent should be of a mesmer using it, it shouldn’t even register on the “thinking about possibly maybe wetting my pants” meter. The sole reason for taking staff is for increased survivability. Really strong choice in that regard, and a definite place to start for newbie mesmers in the harsh world of WvW.

Staff 2 is not a stun breaker, but can be used while impaired (not quite blink). However this does not mean stun-like effects are necessarily negated.

Wrong on so many levels…no to all of those, ESPECIALLY Shadow Refuge. For Lyssa’s sake man, SR has so many counters it isn’t even funny! You have to stay in the AoE THE ENTIRE TIME it’s out to get the stealth. If you leave it at any time, you get revealed. Meaning enemies can and will use AoEs on you, Fear, Push, Pull, and Knockback to kill the thief inside or force them out and into the open with reveal. It’s way too easy to take out a thief just due to seeing the refuge. If you’re having problems with this skill, there is no kind way to say this…but please, for the love of Ascalon, LEARN TO PLAY!

Ranger not even listed? What kinda sham is this?

I agree with Deejay – if you change SR like you suggest that is a thief buff (which is never going to happen). I’d love for SR Elite to heal more/faster and give protection.

I could then take an extra util.

They should lower the cooldown on BV and make it insta cast and make it a util in compensation. That would be cool.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Wrong on so many levels…no to all of those, ESPECIALLY Shadow Refuge. For Lyssa’s sake man, SR has so many counters it isn’t even funny! You have to stay in the AoE THE ENTIRE TIME it’s out to get the stealth. If you leave it at any time, you get revealed. Meaning enemies can and will use AoEs on you, Fear, Push, Pull, and Knockback to kill the thief inside or force them out and into the open with reveal. It’s way too easy to take out a thief just due to seeing the refuge. If you’re having problems with this skill, there is no kind way to say this…but please, for the love of Ascalon, LEARN TO PLAY!

Obviously plays thief.

Listen fella, the counters that you list aren’t available on demand for every class out there, so it’s pointless to list them as the definite solution because that simply doesn’t work in every case.

And lol what? wrong in all of those? So according to your pathetic noob kitten , healing signet of all things is fine? Why do I even bother with all of these losers…

I can see the necro hate here as well. Amount of nerfs necro received just to make that dhuumfire “valid” is ridiculous, it shouldn’t have been there in the first place.

Well the community hates Necros. This thread shows it.
Devs managed to nerf a skill thats absolutely useless, signet of vamprism. Devs hate necros.
I hate my necro after all the nerfs.
I wanted to look at things at a different perspective and have a bit more fun playing.
I was just getting the hang of my power build and crit is getting nerfed.
Lemme try Minion Master wait thats getting a nerf too.
How about conditions ? 25 limit ? That won’t work for PvE.

Meanwhile thieves and mesmers… Nvm really.

Back to the thread, i agree with the op. He nailed it, these are necessary for a more healthy environment required in this game, along with dhuumfire. The only part i disagree is the eles. That class doesn’t have a meta spec that can compete in any levels. It needs a nerf to the amount of buffs it can have, and it needs a buff to its damage.
Just my opinion.

Thief here.

SR is only on my skill bar about 10% of the time – if I’m quite clearly trolling around a huge zerg, and then it only gets used in conjunction with shadowstep. Otherwise it’s a nice way to die away from prying eyes.

Yes it’s good – but it’s about 5th in a lineup that’s vying for 3 spots.

NOW you can post “obvious thief is obvious”.

1. Perform an across the board #1 skill re-balance to make sure all auto attacks are operating in the same range so they all function reasonably well in PvE. This is the main problem with a number of weapons in the game such as Thief/Engi Pistol and Ele Staff/Scepter.

2. Narrow the health gaps between the professions. There’s no excuse for them to be as huge as they are- it leads to an unreasonably large gap in skill floors between the classes.

3. Modify mobs to function more like PCs. They should have less health with damage (especially AoE) avoidance AI, they should hit more frequently for less damage, etc. This would help them to tie balance between PvP and PvE better and reduce the tendency to break one in attempting to fix the other.

4. Modify racial skills to make them at least somewhat competitive. If they’re going to be underpowered, it’s pointless to have them at all.

5. Fine tune class-specific mechanics like Thief Stealth and Ranger pets to be more utilitarian and less ‘mandatory’. Stealth is very gimmicky, Rangers are too dependent on pets, and Elementalists are required to attunement dance to even meet the effectiveness of other classes when it’s supposed to be a bonus adding to their versatility.

Razor.6392:

Looks like you’ve never fought a condition mesmer or whatever that build is called.

And herein lies the rub, you clearly don’t even know how the build properly works. You clearly have an issue with PU Condi Mesmers, but the way you’re posting your thread is that you’re advocating a nerf to the class as a whole.

There’s no Mesmers left in top-tier PvP teams, all those have left or rerolled to other classes. The general status of the builds that we have available is as follows:

- Mantra: very much non-viable
- Signet: very much non-viable
- Hybrid: workable but very much sub-par
- Lockdown: decent but works only in 1v1 or 1v2 at best
- Phantasm: good in 1v1, but illusions die too quickly for anything larger
- Shatter: pushed out of the Meta by Thieves and others as it’s too squishy
- PU Power: good survivability, but lacks the oomph to take several specs/classes down
- PU Condi: strong but very gimmicky, only good in 1v1 or very small-scale, hopeless point-taker, does not work in zergs of PVE and once you’ve figured it out not that difficult to counter.
- WvW: veil/portal-bot. Oh joys.

Razor.6392:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Wrong on so many levels…no to all of those, ESPECIALLY Shadow Refuge. For Lyssa’s sake man, SR has so many counters it isn’t even funny! You have to stay in the AoE THE ENTIRE TIME it’s out to get the stealth. If you leave it at any time, you get revealed. Meaning enemies can and will use AoEs on you, Fear, Push, Pull, and Knockback to kill the thief inside or force them out and into the open with reveal. It’s way too easy to take out a thief just due to seeing the refuge. If you’re having problems with this skill, there is no kind way to say this…but please, for the love of Ascalon, LEARN TO PLAY!

Obviously plays thief.

Listen fella, the counters that you list aren’t available on demand for every class out there, so it’s pointless to list them as the definite solution because that simply doesn’t work in every case.

And lol what? wrong in all of those? So according to your pathetic noob kitten , healing signet of all things is fine? Why do I even bother with all of these losers…

Actually the person you responded to is correct. It is easy to play against. The fact is that most thieves in the game are pretty poor. They use SR when they have virtually no health left and then need to stay in that circle until the house goes away.

Pro tip: switch over to your AOE if you don’t have cc. Mostly likely you’ll see a downed thief laying there afterwards.

Razor.6392:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Wrong on so many levels…no to all of those, ESPECIALLY Shadow Refuge. For Lyssa’s sake man, SR has so many counters it isn’t even funny! You have to stay in the AoE THE ENTIRE TIME it’s out to get the stealth. If you leave it at any time, you get revealed. Meaning enemies can and will use AoEs on you, Fear, Push, Pull, and Knockback to kill the thief inside or force them out and into the open with reveal. It’s way too easy to take out a thief just due to seeing the refuge. If you’re having problems with this skill, there is no kind way to say this…but please, for the love of Ascalon, LEARN TO PLAY!

Obviously plays thief.

Listen fella, the counters that you list aren’t available on demand for every class out there, so it’s pointless to list them as the definite solution because that simply doesn’t work in every case.

And lol what? wrong in all of those? So according to your pathetic noob kitten , healing signet of all things is fine? Why do I even bother with all of these losers…

Let me show all the counters each class has.

Ranger: Spike Trap, Flame Trap, Viper’s Nest, Bonfire, Barrage, Entangle, Storm Spirit -> Call Lightning

Elementalist: Lava Font, Gust, Eruption, Shockwave, Shatterstone, Drake’s Breath, Ring of Fire, Fire Garb, Cone of Cold, Updraft, Ring of Earth, Earthquake, Churning Earth, Comet, Arcane Wave, Glyph of Storms, Tornado

Engineer: Blunderbuss, Jump Shot, Blow Torch, Magnetic Shield -> Magnetic Inversion, any bomb/grenade/flamethrower skill, Throw Mine, Fumigate, Acid Bomb, Box of Nails, Elixir X

Guardian: Symbol of Wrath, Binding Blade -> Pull, Mighty Blow, Ring of Warding (don’t suggest this unless you have a helper AoEing the spot), Wave of Wrath, Symbol of Swiftness, Symbol of Faith, Smite, Shield of Judgement, Shield of Absorption, Zealot’s Flame, Cleansing Flame, Purging Flames, Sanctuary, Smite Condition, Tome of Wrath

Mesmer: Mind Stab, Illusionary Wave, Chaos Storm, Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void, The Prestige

Necromancer: Doom, Life Transfer, all staff marks, Unholy Feast, Grasping Dead, Enfeebling Blood, Locust Swarm, Corrosive Poison Cloud, Well of Suffering, Plague, Lich Form

Warrior: Whirlwind Attack, Earthshaker, Hammer Shock, Combustive Shot, Arcing Arrow, Cyclone Axe, Whirling Axe, Tremor, Stomp, Fear Me!, Rampage

Thief: Clusterbomb, Choking Gas, Caltrops, Dagger Storm, Exploding Venom Sack, Skull Fear, Whirling Axe

Looking at this, the only ones who should be having any kind of problems with dealing with opponents in Shadow Refuge should be thieves and mesmers. But considering most mesmers take either focus on offhand (due to Temporal Curtain providing one of the only sources of Swiftness) or Greatsword, they’re already prepared to counter thieves most of the time. A thief versus thief battle…that usually depends on their builds.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Razor.6392:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Wrong on so many levels…no to all of those, ESPECIALLY Shadow Refuge. For Lyssa’s sake man, SR has so many counters it isn’t even funny! You have to stay in the AoE THE ENTIRE TIME it’s out to get the stealth. If you leave it at any time, you get revealed. Meaning enemies can and will use AoEs on you, Fear, Push, Pull, and Knockback to kill the thief inside or force them out and into the open with reveal. It’s way too easy to take out a thief just due to seeing the refuge. If you’re having problems with this skill, there is no kind way to say this…but please, for the love of Ascalon, LEARN TO PLAY!

Obviously plays thief.

Listen fella, the counters that you list aren’t available on demand for every class out there, so it’s pointless to list them as the definite solution because that simply doesn’t work in every case.

And lol what? wrong in all of those? So according to your pathetic noob kitten , healing signet of all things is fine? Why do I even bother with all of these losers…

Let me show all the counters each class has.

Ranger: Spike Trap, Flame Trap, Viper’s Nest, Bonfire, Barrage, Entangle, Storm Spirit -> Call Lightning

Elementalist: Lava Font, Gust, Eruption, Shockwave, Shatterstone, Drake’s Breath, Ring of Fire, Fire Garb, Cone of Cold, Updraft, Ring of Earth, Earthquake, Churning Earth, Comet, Arcane Wave, Glyph of Storms, Tornado

Engineer: Blunderbuss, Jump Shot, Blow Torch, Magnetic Shield -> Magnetic Inversion, any bomb/grenade/flamethrower skill, Throw Mine, Fumigate, Acid Bomb, Box of Nails, Elixir X

Guardian: Symbol of Wrath, Binding Blade -> Pull, Mighty Blow, Ring of Warding (don’t suggest this unless you have a helper AoEing the spot), Wave of Wrath, Symbol of Swiftness, Symbol of Faith, Smite, Shield of Judgement, Shield of Absorption, Zealot’s Flame, Cleansing Flame, Purging Flames, Sanctuary, Smite Condition, Tome of Wrath

Mesmer: Mind Stab, Illusionary Wave, Chaos Storm, Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void, The Prestige

Necromancer: Doom, Life Transfer, all staff marks, Unholy Feast, Grasping Dead, Enfeebling Blood, Locust Swarm, Corrosive Poison Cloud, Well of Suffering, Plague, Lich Form

Warrior: Whirlwind Attack, Earthshaker, Hammer Shock, Combustive Shot, Arcing Arrow, Cyclone Axe, Whirling Axe, Tremor, Stomp, Fear Me!, Rampage

Thief: Clusterbomb, Choking Gas, Caltrops, Dagger Storm, Exploding Venom Sack, Skull Fear, Whirling Axe

Looking at this, the only ones who should be having any kind of problems with dealing with opponents in Shadow Refuge should be thieves and mesmers. But considering most mesmers take either focus on offhand (due to Temporal Curtain providing one of the only sources of Swiftness) or Greatsword, they’re already prepared to counter thieves most of the time. A thief versus thief battle…that usually depends on their builds.

Add to the counters any melee weapon on a damage build…

I too, have the impression OP never played these “to be nerfed” classes…
First, give them choices… Then nerf what is over the board… Just don’t nerf, nerf, nerf into oblivion when the “to nerf” build is the only viable they have…

RyuDragnier.9476:

Mesmer: Mind Stab, Illusionary Wave, Chaos Storm, Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void, The Prestige

I know I speak for all mesmers when I say countering SR is obviously a l2p issue. I mean this guy has pretty much given us the blueprint…

Mind Stab: Nothing better than taking a guess at a 240 radius skill with a 120 radius skill! If it hits, you’ll do about 1.5k AND strip a boon!!! Amazing.

Chaos Storm: So good. Just put it on top of that little house and you’ll probably hit the thief for like 300-1k dmg! It’s unstoppable.

The Prestige: Thieves absolutely HATE it when you aoe blind them while in SR. Even better is that you’ll have a chance to guess which direction he ran after the refuge and maybe you’ll get a burning proc. Many thieves heal/cure conditions in stealth, but you should still be able to get in a good 1k hp if you guess correctly!

Temporal Curtain/Into the Void: This thing is amazing. With TC at a .25s cast time, and Into the Void cast time at 1s, the thief only has 1.25 seconds to notice the bright aoe line on the ground and dodge backwards. Just make sure you don’t try to catch the thief off guard by waiting to pull – the SR will be done pulsing by then.

Illusionary Wave: Another clutch SR counter. It works wonders…unless the thief uses a 1200 range blink before the SR, has a dodge available, or sets the refuge on any terrain with a slope of more than 10 degrees.

Just remember that even you get the thief down but he manages to self-rez in stealth, that means that his down-state timer is now on!! That gives you a massive advantage that shouldn’t be overlooked.

tldr: l2p issue. buff SR

I’ll keep it simple.

1.) No
2.) Getting nerfed anyways
3.) Maybe a small nerf, but in exchange many other aspects of the necromancer need to be buffed.
4.) Why?
5.) I honestly think that the only problem with the mesmers design philosophy is that it’s more effective the less targets there are. 1v1 mesmers are at their peak efficiency.

But these are all just my opinions.

i have to say the nerf on warrior healing signet is irrelevant. 7% right?

Warriors won’t even feel the difference, but anet can now say “we listened and nerfed warriors!”

RyuDragnier.9476:

Razor.6392:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Wrong on so many levels…no to all of those, ESPECIALLY Shadow Refuge. For Lyssa’s sake man, SR has so many counters it isn’t even funny! You have to stay in the AoE THE ENTIRE TIME it’s out to get the stealth. If you leave it at any time, you get revealed. Meaning enemies can and will use AoEs on you, Fear, Push, Pull, and Knockback to kill the thief inside or force them out and into the open with reveal. It’s way too easy to take out a thief just due to seeing the refuge. If you’re having problems with this skill, there is no kind way to say this…but please, for the love of Ascalon, LEARN TO PLAY!

Obviously plays thief.

Listen fella, the counters that you list aren’t available on demand for every class out there, so it’s pointless to list them as the definite solution because that simply doesn’t work in every case.

And lol what? wrong in all of those? So according to your pathetic noob kitten , healing signet of all things is fine? Why do I even bother with all of these losers…

Let me show all the counters each class has.

Ranger: Spike Trap, Flame Trap, Viper’s Nest, Bonfire, Barrage, Entangle, Storm Spirit -> Call Lightning

Elementalist: Lava Font, Gust, Eruption, Shockwave, Shatterstone, Drake’s Breath, Ring of Fire, Fire Garb, Cone of Cold, Updraft, Ring of Earth, Earthquake, Churning Earth, Comet, Arcane Wave, Glyph of Storms, Tornado

Engineer: Blunderbuss, Jump Shot, Blow Torch, Magnetic Shield -> Magnetic Inversion, any bomb/grenade/flamethrower skill, Throw Mine, Fumigate, Acid Bomb, Box of Nails, Elixir X

Guardian: Symbol of Wrath, Binding Blade -> Pull, Mighty Blow, Ring of Warding (don’t suggest this unless you have a helper AoEing the spot), Wave of Wrath, Symbol of Swiftness, Symbol of Faith, Smite, Shield of Judgement, Shield of Absorption, Zealot’s Flame, Cleansing Flame, Purging Flames, Sanctuary, Smite Condition, Tome of Wrath

Mesmer: Mind Stab, Illusionary Wave, Chaos Storm, Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void, The Prestige

Necromancer: Doom, Life Transfer, all staff marks, Unholy Feast, Grasping Dead, Enfeebling Blood, Locust Swarm, Corrosive Poison Cloud, Well of Suffering, Plague, Lich Form

Warrior: Whirlwind Attack, Earthshaker, Hammer Shock, Combustive Shot, Arcing Arrow, Cyclone Axe, Whirling Axe, Tremor, Stomp, Fear Me!, Rampage

Thief: Clusterbomb, Choking Gas, Caltrops, Dagger Storm, Exploding Venom Sack, Skull Fear, Whirling Axe

Looking at this, the only ones who should be having any kind of problems with dealing with opponents in Shadow Refuge should be thieves and mesmers. But considering most mesmers take either focus on offhand (due to Temporal Curtain providing one of the only sources of Swiftness) or Greatsword, they’re already prepared to counter thieves most of the time. A thief versus thief battle…that usually depends on their builds.

Dude I’m not saying that refuge should be deleted, just moved to elite so calm down.

All of what you’ve listed is 1v1 / last resort SR usage counters. There are more uses to SR than those… way more.

Razor.6392:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Razor.6392:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Wrong on so many levels…no to all of those, ESPECIALLY Shadow Refuge. For Lyssa’s sake man, SR has so many counters it isn’t even funny! You have to stay in the AoE THE ENTIRE TIME it’s out to get the stealth. If you leave it at any time, you get revealed. Meaning enemies can and will use AoEs on you, Fear, Push, Pull, and Knockback to kill the thief inside or force them out and into the open with reveal. It’s way too easy to take out a thief just due to seeing the refuge. If you’re having problems with this skill, there is no kind way to say this…but please, for the love of Ascalon, LEARN TO PLAY!

Obviously plays thief.

Listen fella, the counters that you list aren’t available on demand for every class out there, so it’s pointless to list them as the definite solution because that simply doesn’t work in every case.

And lol what? wrong in all of those? So according to your pathetic noob kitten , healing signet of all things is fine? Why do I even bother with all of these losers…

Let me show all the counters each class has.

Ranger: Spike Trap, Flame Trap, Viper’s Nest, Bonfire, Barrage, Entangle, Storm Spirit -> Call Lightning

Elementalist: Lava Font, Gust, Eruption, Shockwave, Shatterstone, Drake’s Breath, Ring of Fire, Fire Garb, Cone of Cold, Updraft, Ring of Earth, Earthquake, Churning Earth, Comet, Arcane Wave, Glyph of Storms, Tornado

Engineer: Blunderbuss, Jump Shot, Blow Torch, Magnetic Shield -> Magnetic Inversion, any bomb/grenade/flamethrower skill, Throw Mine, Fumigate, Acid Bomb, Box of Nails, Elixir X

Guardian: Symbol of Wrath, Binding Blade -> Pull, Mighty Blow, Ring of Warding (don’t suggest this unless you have a helper AoEing the spot), Wave of Wrath, Symbol of Swiftness, Symbol of Faith, Smite, Shield of Judgement, Shield of Absorption, Zealot’s Flame, Cleansing Flame, Purging Flames, Sanctuary, Smite Condition, Tome of Wrath

Mesmer: Mind Stab, Illusionary Wave, Chaos Storm, Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void, The Prestige

Necromancer: Doom, Life Transfer, all staff marks, Unholy Feast, Grasping Dead, Enfeebling Blood, Locust Swarm, Corrosive Poison Cloud, Well of Suffering, Plague, Lich Form

Warrior: Whirlwind Attack, Earthshaker, Hammer Shock, Combustive Shot, Arcing Arrow, Cyclone Axe, Whirling Axe, Tremor, Stomp, Fear Me!, Rampage

Thief: Clusterbomb, Choking Gas, Caltrops, Dagger Storm, Exploding Venom Sack, Skull Fear, Whirling Axe

Looking at this, the only ones who should be having any kind of problems with dealing with opponents in Shadow Refuge should be thieves and mesmers. But considering most mesmers take either focus on offhand (due to Temporal Curtain providing one of the only sources of Swiftness) or Greatsword, they’re already prepared to counter thieves most of the time. A thief versus thief battle…that usually depends on their builds.

Dude I’m not saying that refuge should be deleted, just moved to elite so calm down.

All of what you’ve listed is 1v1 / last resort SR usage counters. There are more uses to SR than those… way more.

Damage is damage, and thieves are allergic to taking damage, so any pressure you put in that circle won’t go unrewarded, especially if he is trying to rez, or stomps ( which aoe CC will help against as well)

I think your the one that needs to calm down, it’s not like anet with take this seriously :P

Edit: inb4 another “lol Obviously plays thief” comment.

Razor.6392:

LastDay.3524:

1. It’s good but Elite… really?
I usually just drop AoE on it…

2. Dunno too much about Warriors.

3. I don’t get everyone’s beef with this trait.
Many Necros say it’s useless, doesn’t fit the theme and should be replaced with something useful while many non-Necros complain that it’s op.
Personally I think it’s alright. Anet is moving it into Life Blast it would seem.
Seems like an odd change but okay.
Personally I’d rather have them double it’s duration and make Doom inflict it instead.
Doom has 20sec cooldown so removing the Burning would mean no more fire for 20 seconds, and not removing it would be a bad idea.

4. I don’t see why, many seem to regard Eles as easy pray as is.

5. Mesmers are very tricky to fight against, but the general idea is you wanna ignore Illusions and destroy the Phantasms.
The Phantasms do a truckton of damage, whereas Illusions only do so when shattered.
I do hate having to fight them, but I think it’s more due to my lack of skill what it comes to Mesmers than them being broken.
You really need to play one at least for a while to understand how to fight against one.

Looks like you’ve never fought a condition mesmer or whatever that build is called.

I normally don’t have issues against mesmers. My aoe can get rid of most of the trash they spam, but still that doesn’t mean they aren’t terribly designed.

Anyway I love how thieves get all mad about this change. Shadow refuge outclasses every single thief utility and is pretty much a must have in every case.

“what ever that build is called”. That was enough to know you like blabbering without logic in mind… play a mesmer and learn how to counter it, don’t tell me you already know how because its obvious you don’t fully understand how when you say the things you do.

btw I don’t like playing a mesmer, I just played one to learn how to counter them.

mesmers are not difficult to fight against since they changed the targeting system so that a sole person can target them… to say they are op is absolute nonsense… since the game started mesmers have either been nerfed or ignored by Anet (I challenge anyone to name a buff)… they actually need a lot of skills fixing. Many skills will not work on an uneven surface – I am not talking about hills but little bumps in the ground. The recharge time on some skills is ridiculously high and there are times when you are left completely defenseless with nothing left to use – You basically get to use your skill bar twice against a foe and if it does not bring it down then you are sitting dead in the water unless you run away and give the foe time to heal again – this used to be fine but now only works against light armor types – I can hit a guardian or warrior with everything I have and barely put a dent in their health bar.

The thing to watch out for is fighting a mesmer who is with someone else… people focus on the mesmer because of the clones but this leaves them open for attack from the other class. There is a mesmer and ranger on viz who cap camps alot – everytime it is the ranger that kills me not the mesmer.

Every class in the game has been buffed but the mesmer… It used to be that under water the only class that stood a chance against a mesmer was a ranger… now even a thief can beat a mesmer under water if they know what they are doing.
There is not a lot of aoe damage and there is not a lot of damage at all… try running a mesmer in a pve farming train and you will soon see that you get only half the amount of loot that other classes get. I can hit an ele underwater with my spear and once upon a time that did insane damage… now it is like taking a toothpick to a suit of armour. Plus conditions on the mesmer got nerfed to hell in wvw. And somehow I missed the alert about it but healing got nerfed (or fixed – not sure which tbh)… but I get a lot less healing now than I used to and I can’t remember if it was always reliant on clones present.

If you can’t defeat a mesmer then it is not because the mesmer is op… it is because you are not very good at playing pvp or the mesmer player is particularly skilled – in all honesty there are only a few of us mesmers who are particularly good at 1v1 fights and we all use different styles from each other. I rely very little on clones but go for ‘high’ (high for a mesmer) damage with stuns; another skilled mesmer that I know uses cloaking very effectively.

Oh… and did I mention that there are an awful lot of skills that do not work against certain classes – aka a lot of classes (and foes in pve) have immunity against many mesmer skills. Plus not all the traits work as they are supposed to.

The mesmer needs an overhaul – it needs buffing or at the very least it needs the current skills fixed so that they do what they say they do and work on bumpy ground. I don’t know about other mesmers but my bane is grasping vines… especially if my sword skills are misfiring because of bumpy ground.

@cyyrix… best way to kill a thief 1v1 is to use mass invisibility to make sure you have phantasmal berseker, mirror blade, and phantasmal duelist on the go – then magic bullet, illusionary leap, blurred frenzy, signet of domination… and 9/10 thieves will be down – mind wrack will finish things off nicely and you can cloak back… the hardest part is making sure that magic bullet hits and that no bumps in the ground prevent illusionary leap. But you still have decoy to use if need be and blurred frenzy recharged to help counter any counter attacks if the combo fails.

Okay people. I can beat mesmers, in fact I do it quite often (even champion illusionists). That doesn’t mean that their class isn’t flawed from a design standpoint!

And yes I’ve lost horribly to some mesmers as well with no chance of retaliation whatsoever (talking about fair duels, not getting caught by surprise with one of their low cooldown combos of doom). Then there’s those condi mesmer that I’ve fought in wvw… just plain disgusting.

I can see where you’re coming from though, I realize these are only 1v1’s and that their actual power in zergs (most if not all of the wvw playstyle in this game) or spvp isn’t that great. But you also can’t deny that the frustration caused by mesmer fights and the effort needed to outplay a good one are both probably the highest in the game when compared to other classes.

Frenk.5917:

PRAISE THE LORD for you are not in the balance team, then!

This^

cyyrix.6105:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Mesmer: Mind Stab, Illusionary Wave, Chaos Storm, Temporal Curtain -> Into the Void, The Prestige

I know I speak for all mesmers when I say countering SR is obviously a l2p issue. I mean this guy has pretty much given us the blueprint…

Mind Stab: Nothing better than taking a guess at a 240 radius skill with a 120 radius skill! If it hits, you’ll do about 1.5k AND strip a boon!!! Amazing.

Chaos Storm: So good. Just put it on top of that little house and you’ll probably hit the thief for like 300-1k dmg! It’s unstoppable.

The Prestige: Thieves absolutely HATE it when you aoe blind them while in SR. Even better is that you’ll have a chance to guess which direction he ran after the refuge and maybe you’ll get a burning proc. Many thieves heal/cure conditions in stealth, but you should still be able to get in a good 1k hp if you guess correctly!

Temporal Curtain/Into the Void: This thing is amazing. With TC at a .25s cast time, and Into the Void cast time at 1s, the thief only has 1.25 seconds to notice the bright aoe line on the ground and dodge backwards. Just make sure you don’t try to catch the thief off guard by waiting to pull – the SR will be done pulsing by then.

Illusionary Wave: Another clutch SR counter. It works wonders…unless the thief uses a 1200 range blink before the SR, has a dodge available, or sets the refuge on any terrain with a slope of more than 10 degrees.

Just remember that even you get the thief down but he manages to self-rez in stealth, that means that his down-state timer is now on!! That gives you a massive advantage that shouldn’t be overlooked.

tldr: l2p issue. buff SR

Re-posted because you made me laugh and because you’re 100% spot on and OP clearly has no idea what he’s talking about and instead just posting a list of random skills.

terrible ideas op had lol

Refuge is extremely easy to counter and already has a somewhat lengthy cd

warrior healing should be lowered but given higher scaling with healing power thus warriors would have to choose between damage or super sustain or weaker hybrid

necro’s dhuumfire is being reworked and will if im not mistaken burn when using shroud form instead

ele #3 blind aint that a big deal as scepter lightning skills lack dps and arent hard to counter plus odds are eles wont stay attuned to air long anough for another # 3

mesmers are somewhat ok if the kitten clones did not force disengage your target from the obvious mesmer unless it was a stealth+clone

Kincaidia.3192:

i have to say the nerf on warrior healing signet is irrelevant. 7% right?

Warriors won’t even feel the difference, but anet can now say “we listened and nerfed warriors!”

8% and the nerf will take down the healing signet to 360 hps. I think that this should be a bit lower in my opinion, maybe 345-355. But you will notice the difference. The 8% nerf will take the healing signet down to the level of Healing Surge at maximum efficiency. This means that they are now on par healing wise but I think the devs should take into account the fact that the regen can stack with boons/other sources (Ele Soothing Mist and Guard vitrue, not that they are of import, nor am I basing anything on them but I am noting them). The healing cannot be interrupted and is not as affected by poison as other heals are. That is why I think it should be lowered a bit more to compensate the advantage.

In other words a 10% nerf instead of 8% is more in order (again in my opinion).

(Pssst this means that 392 would have 39 hps subtracted that equals 353)