Guild Wars 2

I don’t see a problem. Mesmer phantasms are WEAPON attacks. They take up one of our 5 weapon skills. All the other class “pets” are out in addition to your 5 weapon attacks, which do scale with your stats. If you want to nerf phantasm scaling then let them stay out all the time, and give us a different weapon attack.

If your turrets suck so bad then address that issue, but don’t cry about what little another class already has.

If you want to cry about who has it better, ele’s could say the same about engi’s unlimited swapping between kits whereas they have ridiculous cooldowns on their attunement swapping.

Engi’s have it pretty good right now, and you’ll have a hard time soliciting sympathy from others.

we aint talking about nerfing phantasm scaling we talking about giving the phantasm stat scaling to pet as well Nerfing never was part of the discution

kyubi.3620:

we aint talking about nerfing phantasm scaling we talking about giving the phantasm stat scaling to pet as well Nerfing never was part of the discution

unfortunately the damage on pets would need to be nerfed before it could scale. So being tanky with a dps pet would not be an option. Also like has been mentioned before phantasms are a weapon attack for mesmers and as such needed to scale.

I also proposed to nerf pet damage in proportion to keep the gain to a decent yet not overwhelming amount. Point is to give glass cannon damage to pet when the master is himself a glass cannon and limit the damage of tank style ranger pet.
If we are to gain a total of +25% damage above the current stat they will need to make it so the pet loose 50% of its damage when geared toward bunkers (those guys can always run moa i heard it actual does partywide heals)

I dont really mind ranger pets tooooo much.. But I do find it odd that Phanstam Duelists get such fast firing shots to ensure they actually do their damage, whereas ranger pets like spiders get some rediculous arcing slow shot so that only 1/3 actually hits.

I dont understand why they cant just make pets able to hit reliably like phantasms do, by making them attack much faster (not more often, just fast animations and projectiles) and given melee pets more leap attacks like phantasmal berserkers and swordsmen.

Wouldnt be that hard and would go a LONG way to fixing pets for rangers.

tetrodoxin.2134:

I believe Anet once actually said that phantasms are not supposed to be seen as “pets” in their functionality.

Yup. That’s why they do not share AI coding.

Stop comparing apples to oranges, kyubi…. man, someone needs to take the keyboard away from you.

Weither phantasm and pet have the same ai or not is somewhat irelevant, the issue is to look for a way to make pet viable in a party right now for other purpose then getting themselve killed constantly as fodder or procing a f2 buff every now in a while.

Just happen that puting it on damage scaling the same as mesmer phantasm would fix the lack of usefullness issue.

No. Stop. Really.

You missed the point.

Let me spell it out for you again:

Mesmer clones/phantasms do not share AI coding with the mob AIs. They are fundamentally different than pets because of this. If you want them to scale like Mesmer clones/phantasms they have to rewrite the coding for the pets so they are not tied to mob AI.

If you cannot understand that you need to stop posting on this subject until you do.

I think you are compairing the pet with the wrong thing. The pet is class mechanic first, AI second (in my opinion at least). In this belief, I think that the ranger pet should scale with it’s user since all other class mechanics don’t. Though I don’t believe that it should scale completely since every pet is different. So I suggest that 30~75% of the pet’s stats are predetirmined and that the the rest should scale (some stats are an exception like condition and boon duration).

On a side note: this doesn’t mean other pets should scale as well.

Well, i kinda agree with the op though… from the ranger’s standpoint the mesmer ISNT forced to have the pos pets out full time, thus isnt subjected to the same issues as caused by ranger pets which are powerful…until they get hit about 2-3 times by anything other than a player… Mesmer currently is basically just the ranger done correctly by the BS and unimplementable pet model the ranger is tied to… help my ranger, leave mesmers as is imo

and i agree to the necro pet thing, that is something i always kinda scratched my head at lol

So I suggest that 30~75% of the pet’s stats are predetirmined and that the the rest should scale (some stats are an exception like condition and boon duration).

This is what ive been talking about since the start. They need to give pet some predetermined stat and the rest is determined by player gear (aka the same as with GW 1 pet nature customisation but made via your equipment, the same bear may be dealing better damage or having better survivability depending on its nature so why not make the pet customisable trought gear?)

kyubi.3620:

So I suggest that 30~75% of the pet’s stats are predetirmined and that the the rest should scale (some stats are an exception like condition and boon duration).

This is what ive been talking about since the start. They need to give pet some predetermined stat and the rest is determined by player gear (aka the same as with GW 1 pet nature customisation but made via your equipment, the same bear may be dealing better damage or having better survivability depending on its nature so why not make the pet customisable trought gear?)

because the pet itself IS the issue in the case of the ranger’s bear… for rangers: The thing is always in the world, is never invulnerable, thus is ALWAYS a target, and always on the aggro table…this could be changed such that “pet passive” applies the determined buff, but unlikely because it would be too easy to exploit. SO: pet on the aggro table, what does this do? Well, it all has to do with mob stacking. Sorry , but there is just no more efficient way of killing off 2-3 (or 30, doesnt matter) mobs than to stack em all up and go hog wild with the aoe. The ranger’s pet causes issues here because mobs generally only pull so many at the time (typically 6-7 max) before they “run out of room” around the player and reset themselves. The ranger’s pet is a hinderance because it allows that many more mobs to be already aggro’d, locking you the ranger in combat, but they arent going to focus on you until your group is dead, and/or your pet is (takes about the same length of time to kill off 2-3 of 7 as it does for your pet to die). OK, l2p? sure..except that that same principal applies when fighting things like Mai Trin, or the Wardens in the marionette fight… whether alive, dead, passive or otherwise, that ranger pet (likely with low dps table and higher toughness as per what generally pulls highest aggro currently) is drawing aggro to itself, and can NOT be controlled with specific movements in any way (such as to reliably bring a mob/boss somewhere you need it to be..mai trin and the blue aoe field, marionette wardens and any kiting/stacking/facing issues that need to be done). And worse during Mai Trin: the cannon barrage phase that stupid pet is going to draw extra cannon fire to you, the ranger, alive, dead, passive, other… thus unless its one of those rather terrible rangers (i seen no shortage of people on rangers who i swear might not be able to tie their own shoes)…then its some mechanic about the specific fight (mechanics that are absolutely everywhere by design, mind you) that the pet’s presence causes to short circuit and make that mechanic needlessly harder to achieve. That’s why even good rangers are so reviled in anything other than MUCH older open world content… though most blindly blame the player instead of whoever made the design call that rangers will be forced to have this thing with them.

Which to the OP is the reason Mesmer pets are OK imo right now, they have high damage, but the class itself has basically nothing on its own without them, they require a target and constant maintenance to keep them alive in long fights, or to re-summon them in much shorter ones. Necro pets are somewhere in the middle..things need to be able to heal up between battles, and are in the same boat as ranger pets in dungeons and such, but the necro (and engi for that matter) isn’t forced to deal with said issues as a permanently affixed cancer on the class.

kyubi.3620:

So I suggest that 30~75% of the pet’s stats are predetirmined and that the the rest should scale (some stats are an exception like condition and boon duration).

This is what ive been talking about since the start. They need to give pet some predetermined stat and the rest is determined by player gear (aka the same as with GW 1 pet nature customisation but made via your equipment, the same bear may be dealing better damage or having better survivability depending on its nature so why not make the pet customisable trought gear?)

First if it looks like I’m stealing your idea it is not my intention. I only saw reduce in base damage but make it scale( I may have missed something so if I did sorry): it implied (in my view at least) that every pet would be a blank slate with the same starting stats. I meant with my statement that the bear would still be tankier then the moa and such things.

Second why do you limit it to gear? Trait lines are an important source of stats which define your build. Gear stats alone can give you the wrong impression. Also food does not benefit the pet in your case.

I think they should scale with the player as well. Then such broken builds like spirit ranger (full Condition Damage + 3k crits from Cat) wouldn’t work. With the current system rangers are forced to use those hybrid builds, because their direct damage is capped because of the pets but they can max condition damage very effective.

What I think would work is:
- every pet has the same base stats
- every pet has (lets say) two major and two minor stats. major stats scale with 70%, minor with 30% of the owners stats (numbers can be tweaked)
Edit: could also be a master with 100%, as I said, number can be changed

With this system you can force pet a to be tanky (major = vita and toughness) or offense (power and crit). Even condition pets would be possible (codni damage and duration) or support pets (boon duration healing power), …
So you have to/should choose your pets depending on your build. And you don’t have to take the cat, because it deals the most damage.

Coming from a person who plays both Mesmer (primarily) and Ranger. My husband is also an excellent Ranger – and uses the pet to the fullest potential.

A few points regarding Mesmers:
1. Keep in mind that these clones/phantasms are FRAGILE in comparison to other AI.
2. They have a cooldown to respawn.
3. They have a cooldown for only one skill used
4. Often, they only get 1 shot in before either killed or shattered

Regarding Rangers:
1. Pets, particularly bears, can tank if you so desire.
2. You can switch out pets instantaneously (so long as you don’t let them die within 20 seconds).
3. Though their best skill has a long recharge, the pet is using other skills while that skill is cooling down.
4. Related to #3, they will get in a fair amount of hits before they’re either switched out or dead.

Considering the cooldowns for Mesmers and the fragility of their clones/phantasms, they need any extra damage they can get. Whereas with Rangers, the damage over time from the pet is either equal to or greater than that of the Mesmer phantasm.

I normally let my phantasms get one shot off, then shatter them, as the cooldown between skills they use leaves them vulnerable (It is much better for them to be shattered than to die) and myself not doing much damage. I try to reduce my recharge as much as possible so I can have at least 1 out at any particular moment.

In essence though, I think the answer to the OP’s question is basically: Mesmers’ phantasms/clones are that much more fragile.

And also, as someone else mentioned, it’s very useful to have your pets do something else, ie condi damage to support your particular build. Plus, pets are already so OP…. My husband rarely ever goes to defeated state due to his pet…. He commonly carries around a wolf (for fear) and a bear (tank) or a wolf (for fear) and spider (control).

Lorelei.7809:

Coming from a person who plays both Mesmer (primarily) and Ranger. My husband is also an excellent Ranger – and uses the pet to the fullest potential.

A few points regarding Mesmers:
1. Keep in mind that these clones/phantasms are FRAGILE in comparison to other AI.
2. They have a cooldown to respawn.
3. They have a cooldown for only one skill used
4. Often, they only get 1 shot in before either killed or shattered

Regarding Rangers:
1. Pets, particularly bears, can tank if you so desire.
2. You can switch out pets instantaneously (so long as you don’t let them die within 20 seconds).
3. Though their best skill has a long recharge, the pet is using other skills while that skill is cooling down.
4. Related to #3, they will get in a fair amount of hits before they’re either switched out or dead.

Considering the cooldowns for Mesmers and the fragility of their clones/phantasms, they need any extra damage they can get. Whereas with Rangers, the damage over time from the pet is either equal to or greater than that of the Mesmer phantasm.

I normally let my phantasms get one shot off, then shatter them, as the cooldown between skills they use leaves them vulnerable (It is much better for them to be shattered than to die) and myself not doing much damage. I try to reduce my recharge as much as possible so I can have at least 1 out at any particular moment.

In essence though, I think the answer to the OP’s question is basically: Mesmers’ phantasms/clones are that much more fragile.

And also, as someone else mentioned, it’s very useful to have your pets do something else, ie condi damage to support your particular build. Plus, pets are already so OP…. My husband rarely ever goes to defeated state due to his pet…. He commonly carries around a wolf (for fear) and a bear (tank) or a wolf (for fear) and spider (control).

I envy you finding people to run with your husbands ranger in dungeons with them calling out “don’t rez the ranger” ….guildies at the time mind you.

And while i categorically hate being forced to give 1/3 or more of my damage, and have that thing out where it causes problems to no end, if i had a decent pool of dungeon runners who didn’t need to stack everything, and was willing to slow down a little and fight things that didn’t 1 shot my ranger’s pet, i might still be playing it :/

Hrm, my GF – being a Ranger, Longbow + Axe/Horn, but I dunno the details I’ll admit :P – rarely has dungeon issues.
She also started using spirits a bit more now (not fully specced into them), and she seems to have great success where they’re not immediately 1-shot (but then, those situations kill all the other pets, too..). They add a lot of power to the group, and they go above the limits of boons.

Carighan.6758:

Hrm, my GF – being a Ranger, Longbow + Axe/Horn, but I dunno the details I’ll admit :P – rarely has dungeon issues.
She also started using spirits a bit more now (not fully specced into them), and she seems to have great success where they’re not immediately 1-shot (but then, those situations kill all the other pets, too..). They add a lot of power to the group, and they go above the limits of boons.

I’ve heard many people say things like this and a part of me wonders if I am the only one in the game (A previous game of mine admitted to, and eventually fixed issues that only effected 1/3 or so of all their accounts relating in that game to aggro generation…but I have to admit it’s a possibility). Mobs and Bosses interact with my ranger pets in ways I never see them do with players, they will stop on the pet like its a wall or something (and usually lets them check range, so if in range but not where i want them to be, I’m boned), and even when my pet is dead they will sometimes break aggro from me, run THROUGH ME and go stare at my nearby dead pet for a second before deciding to come back…and I’ve watched this behavior in Mai Trin (original, quit ranger long before fractal version), jade maw…who targets weird things that aren’t always there anyway, what I call solid proof (though also same, haven’t seen a ranger in fractals for a very long time), the spider in AC and the alpha of CoE are things that groups regularly stack, and they just refuse in the presence of any combat-capable pet so far as I have seen. One of those things that I really wish somebody would at least claim to look into… but since it apparently isn’t a global or even common issue maybe I should just keep to playing something else

well since dev is likely not gunna fix the AI they might as well improve the effectiveness elsewhere?

Also i can only guess that since the tooltip to damage get changed by power and they didnt fix them after several months they likely intended for pets and summons to work that way but couldnt actualy finish the job so they leaving the tooltip as it is. In wich case Its not actualy a bug of the tooltip but of the mechanic itself.