Might Stacking/Cele is the Cause of Imbalance

Might Stacking/Cele is the Cause of Imbalance

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

I wanted to title this “Might Stacking/Cele is still the Cause of Imbalance” but that’s too long apparently.

As of now I feel like none of the classes stand out as being overly overpowered. There are still bugs to squash and underused traits/utilities/weapons need to be brought up to snuff, but overall I feel like the majority of classes are at least some what useable in every game mode.

However, some builds give the illusion of being OP due to gear. When Might duration runes such as Strength, Hoelbrak, and Pirate got buffed it became possible for builds that are both tough and have the ability to hit hard. This wasn’t really a huge problem before with these runes because the duration increase wasn’t that significant. Now, even without many ways for your build itself to stack might you can still get a healthy amount by just having one of the runes above and a Sigil of Battle. If you do have the ability to stack might like with Warrior’s Longbow, Guardian with a Staff, or by being several Ele Specs things can very quickly get out of hand.

The other half of the problem is Celestial Gear. If your build has a variety of attacks that deal both power and condition damage then things become even more ridiculous. In PvP Celestial Gear gets a ton more stat points than other gear. Now, if your build is focused on one type of damage that doesn’t really help, but Engis and Eles in particular gain much from it.

I’m all for hybrid builds, I think they’re generally cool no matter what game they’re in. Generally these builds can do several things in a mediocre fashion and you win by pushing whatever your enemy is weak against. Right now though with the combination of Celestial and Might Stacking you may not be the best at dealing direct power or using conditions, but you will be good at both rather than mediocre. In some cases you’ll also be able to heal up your team and act as support as well.

If the changes to Might runes were reversed it would only be possible for Soldier, Cavalier, Knights, what have you builds to have a tiny bit of a damage boost by say, landing a Bull’s Charge + 100b with Forceful Greatsword or by using Empower, but after a few seconds that boost is gone.

Celestial did need something to make up with the Ferocity change, but why they didn’t just give it more Ferocity I have no idea.

I used to be OK with the concept of these changes because I thought “people will just have to bring more boon removal” but that doesn’t seem to be panning out. Not enough people bring these types of specs and few can strip boons frequently. Several classes have no ability to strip boons whatsoever. Most would rather just abuse it themselves and who can blame them? It’s good.

This has been brought up multiple times but recently I see more “X class is OP” or “X build is OP” and it’s often one of the builds I mentioned in this post.

EDIT: Grammar and clarity.

EDIT 2: I agree with the posters that said that the Celestial gear might be fine if Might stacking gets reduced. So If I was to have control over balancing I would definitely only touch the Might stacking at first and then see what that does to Celestial.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

(edited by BurrTheKing.8571)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Interesting, just a short while ago there were tears all over the forum because the Ferocity-change would make the already weak and underused celestial-gear even more useless, despite the 5/8 buff.

What changed? Just might-stacking + the new runes?

I think in general it’s quite ok if Celestial is statistically the best gear because it is unfocused. Of course it has to increase overall power by more than other gear sets because well that’s the only thing it does. But the might-stacking on top of it is meh, yeah.

I really wish boons (and conditions) were much stronger, but also much more rare.
Say Might should probably just increase your outgoing damage by 15% per stack, but even 1 stack should be something you’d be very hard pressed to keep up, much less multiple. Even in group situations.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: LordByron.8369

LordByron.8369

Disclaimer:
He is talking about the least played game mode in GW2 aka PvP.

You can nerf those and ruin even more the game for 99% of gw2 players…..

Or nerf the celestial amulet and keep the problem in PvP where it should be addressed since in WWW/PvE those are not a thing.

GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

Interesting, just a short while ago there were tears all over the forum because the Ferocity-change would make the already weak and underused celestial-gear even more useless, despite the 5/8 buff.

What changed? Just might-stacking + the new runes?

I think in general it’s quite ok if Celestial is statistically the best gear because it is unfocused. Of course it has to increase overall power by more than other gear sets because well that’s the only thing it does. But the might-stacking on top of it is meh, yeah.

I really wish boons (and conditions) were much stronger, but also much more rare.
Say Might should probably just increase your outgoing damage by 15% per stack, but even 1 stack should be something you’d be very hard pressed to keep up, much less multiple. Even in group situations.

In return for the loss in ferocity it got buffed in every other stat. This ended up making it just the best option for any sort of hybrid build. The gear used to make you mediocre and everything but now you’re just good at everything. You would think a 6% buff wouldn’t be that big of a change but it was, especially since like I said before any loss is mitigated by stacking might.

I don’t think we’ll see any overhaul to the boon system at this point in the game. There’s too many skills that would have to be changed.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

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Posted by: Windwalker.7421

Windwalker.7421

I don’t think the Celestial Amulet is really the issue here, but rather the excessive/EZ stacking of Might. If you nerfed the Amulet, what would that solve aside from ensuring that -once again- no one uses it? You mentioned Battle Sigils, which is just one example of the core issue IMHO. Many sources of Might simply last too long for a buff, and the longer the base duration, the more OPd it becomes to use percent based Boon duration to extend it.

Even in sPvP it’s rather easy to turn that 20s base duration of Battle sigils into >30 seconds duration or more, allowing 9 simultaneous Might stacks from just Battle sigils alone!

I would really hate to see the Celestial Amulet nerfed to uselessness, when IMHO it should be Might duration that should be looked at and normalized across the board. If an ability gives long duration Might, it should only give 1 or 2 stacks, while only short duration Might should give 3-5 stacks for no more then 5-10 seconds max (base duration).

All that said, I think it should be noted that this hybrid/celestial play-style does have a significant counter play presented by boon stripping and/or stealing. Basically you’re living dangerously if you’re living off boons, because you might have your main weapon taken away from you quite easily, and even turned against you. As a Mesmer I’m perhaps biased on this, because we probably get the most viable means of stripping, stealing, and (now) copying an enemies boons. Either way though, it shows a viable counter option, and perhaps we should simply improve the means for other classes to counter boon-heavy classes, rather then apply a broad nerf to an Amulet.

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Posted by: nicknamenick.2437

nicknamenick.2437

might from 25 stacks > 20 max

and i think its balanced like that..

Btw celestial + might = great indeed.. but berserker+ might lets you do allot more dmg..
so not sure why celestial + might is that more OP compared to others even if you have more sustain.. you do less dmg also.

The big problem its the stack size.. 25 might is just too much.. make it 20 first and lets see how it goes from there..

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Posted by: Coldtart.4785

Coldtart.4785

Even at 25 might celestial only barely outdamages soldier and on ele it takes around 30-40 seconds before the healing outstrips the higher vit and toughness on soldier.

I know even a small difference can make a big difference but it really is a small difference.

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

I’m going to agree with some of you that it would certainly be wise to nerf Might stacking FIRST and THEN seeing how that effects Celestial. If it falls in line, great. If it doesn’t then it needs to have another look taken at it.

I still maintain that certain builds are going to receive a major boost because you get decent damage on both your power and condition attacks. I would need to test it more but I think on Warrior Sword/Sword + LB with Celestial might actually be better than Axe because you gain mobility and all those bleed stacks but you also still have a heavy hitting Final Thrust for power damage. If you can keep those bleeds up I feel like they would outstrip the damage from the axe AA.

As for Eles, you often have good access to conditions no matter what you run and Celestial lets you take more advantage of that. While on a training dummy you may not see the advantage but when fighting a class that is either really resilient to physical or condi damage t really helps to have damage coming from multiple sources. Same applies to Warrior and Engi. The extra sustain is also a HUGE factor. War, Ele, and Engi all have access to multiple types of passive regen or burst healing from something that isn’t just their heal and getting a few more stats behind that is always good if it comes at the cost of just a tiny bit of DPS. The builds don’t tend to kill fast but in PvP/WvW they can wear down multiple foes. Once one goes down the other player almost always tries to revive which is when I just drop all my big attacks for free and even if they do revive them now they’re both in pain.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

(edited by BurrTheKing.8571)

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Posted by: Kitt.2567

Kitt.2567

yes they are hell. especially 0/0/2/6/6 25 might stack ele. whenever i duel these kinda ele i feel more hardship

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

Celestial is only broken on 2 classes : ele/engi I dont think they need nerf might stack just because of 2 classes or it will affect the full zerker builds aswell like shatter mesmer and S/D thief that heavely rely on might stack.

Just nerf the condi damage of celestial amulet and problem solved. I think direct damage attacks are easy to avoid but ele’s burning is hard to dodge and engi burning is a passive trait that gives bruning so nerfing the condi dmg on cele amulet will fix the problem.

I wouldn’t expect you to forget that Hambow also has an absurd amount of might stacking potential as well. Heck, you can put Runes of Strength and a Sigil of Battle on most builds and chances are you’ll maintain enough for it to be worthwhile.

Using tanky stats and might stacking is going to take you farther than a glassy set and might stacking. A tanky set without stacking is tough but lacks killing power, with it you can do both. You may not kill as fast as a zerk set but it’s a small loss with a huge boost to sustain. Add in a Sigil of Intelligence and even lacking crit chance isn’t a huge deal.

I like that Sigils and Runes can dramatically change a build, but it shouldn’t make up almost completely for what is supposed to be an armor set’s weakness.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

The problem isn’t so much an inherent flaw with the celestial stat boosts as it is just how little of an impact running full glass actually has, especially in sPvP where stat caps and lower scaling run rampant. Ultimately, might stacking on a full tank spec proves to deal very similar damage to GC specs while retaining the obviously superior defensive stats.

The real problem lies in might stacking and the overall ineffectiveness of trait and armor stats for damage as well as just how much one stack of might can increase someone’s damage by. When many stacks are applied, simply put damage throughputs are nearly equivalent on tanks than glass cannons. This is a fundamental problem I’ve stated since launch; why is it that a spec using 0/0/6/6/2 can deal more damage and retain better defense and utility than one using 6/6/0/0/2? Why is “high” damage dependent on three stats and defense on two? Why is it that might is so easily accessible on builds building survivability? Why is ferocity/critical damge so important for DPS but also so weak as a stat?

There’s no real way to balance out these issues without major overhauls. Might access needs to be cut down severely, forcing some skill coefficients up, trait lines need better stat scaling to really make players need to think about stats versus trait bonuses rather than just looking at the traits themselves, precision and ferocity need overhauls to make berserker much more risky but also much more rewarding versus cavalier/soldier setups, and the list goes on.

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Posted by: jcbroe.4329

jcbroe.4329

I would actually say that boons and boon stacking in general (particularly in this specific instance might) can, and should be considered a bit out of control.

Yes, boons already have a few viable hard counters in the game, but they are very limited to a few particular classes, and the amount of capability classes have to stack and maintain boons far exceeds the amount of punishing boon mechanics that exist within the game.

Now, that isn’t to say that we need more hard counters like boon removal, because we don’t. Clearly, ANet intended with the updates so far this year for certain builds to be able to maintain a certain amount of boons and boon uptime.

However, not enough classes have access to removal/punishment options to justify the current level of stacking capabilities, which currently leaves only 2 options against boon heavy/stacking builds. You either:

  • play a class with removal/punishment capabilities (3 classes with potentially viable options for this out of 8 )
    or
  • play a cookie cutter boon focused build for your class to create an even playing field

However, for the sake of gameplay versatility, it would be nice to see some more counterplay introduced for boons (which would directly affect the particular might stacking issue). If more classes had more options, extending as far as a tad bit more removal introduced into the game, or more soft counter style like Destruction of the Empowered, then it would create more gameplay situations in which skill was a deciding factor in the outcome of the matchup, instead of just running mirror builds, spamming boons and maintaining them, and exchanging blows until somebody dies (obviously dumbed down but the gist is there).

So, tl;dr, yes, might stacking is, in this case, the more prevalent issue as opposed to Celestial. However, it is important that the issue gets addressed in the healthiest manner for gameplay, which may or may not be a direct nerf to stacking capabilities.

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Posted by: Gorni.1764

Gorni.1764

Celestial is only broken on 2 classes : ele/engi I dont think they need nerf might stack just because of 2 classes or it will affect the full zerker builds aswell like shatter mesmer and S/D thief that heavely rely on might stack.

Just because those classes can make good use of the otherwise useless celestial amulet doesn’t mean that it’s broken.

However, do you guys remember the tier-list before the patch where these changes got introduced? Ele was lowest tier and everyone cried for some ele-love. Now ele is top-tier with one build that didn’t recieve other major buffs with the exception of new gear / runes and sigils.
Therefore I think it’s majorly the gear that made eles viable again. We’ve always had to rely on a huge amount of boons (remember buggy Zephyr’s Boon? Everyone used it, just as elemental attunement and renewing stamina).
Those traits are fine but here comes the real problem. A class should be viable on its own and gear should only tweak and enhance the build you’re running by a tiny bit. So the might-stacking should be integrated into the ele-build and not on the gear. This way it could be balanced way more easily.

Still eles (regardless of build) are countered by some classes and/or certain gameplay. I personally (I play ele myself, no might-stacking/celestial though) don’t have a problem with them.

Rachat – Elementalist (Abbadon’s Mouth)

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Posted by: FLiP.7680

FLiP.7680

Disclaimer:
He is talking about the least played game mode in GW2 aka PvP.

You can nerf those and ruin even more the game for 99% of gw2 players…..

Or nerf the celestial amulet and keep the problem in PvP where it should be addressed since in WWW/PvE those are not a thing.

Exactly, those PvP player can have everything for free, and still want to complain and kitten up who has to craft this stuff.
If it’s so good, play with it and shut up.

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Posted by: Cam Ron.4170

Cam Ron.4170

Just revert that stupid crit damage nerf. This will make berserkers a lot stronger which is necessary because celestial kittens all over it. The crit damage nerf is a big reason everybody is celestial

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

So what I’m seeing is this:

Based on my highly anecdotal and extremely biased experience, I think a skill or weapon is overpowered, and because I state my opinion with stronger language and believe in it more strongly than I believe in any sort of factual or counter anecdotal arguments that don’t agree with mine, I believe the game developers should listen to my highly biased opinion about balance, and balance the game just for me.

It couldn’t possibly be that I need to adjust my skill level, tweak my build, adjust my gear, change my utilities, or change how I play, to compensate with a new element that previously did not exist within the game. That’s absurd. Clearly, anything that I can’t facetank and win against is OP.

Personally, I wouldn’t mind some type of rune of nullification style set, that have a chance when hit to strip a boon, on a 30s cool down. either a main stat of health, healing, or toughness.

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Posted by: kyubi.3620

kyubi.3620

well if might stacking gets nerfed likely well see a lot of build wich rely on it dies.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Celestial is only broken on 2 classes : ele/engi I dont think they need nerf might stack just because of 2 classes or it will affect the full zerker builds aswell like shatter mesmer and S/D thief that heavely rely on might stack.

Just because those classes can make good use of the otherwise useless celestial amulet doesn’t mean that it’s broken.

However, do you guys remember the tier-list before the patch where these changes got introduced? Ele was lowest tier and everyone cried for some ele-love. Now ele is top-tier with one build that didn’t recieve other major buffs with the exception of new gear / runes and sigils.
Therefore I think it’s majorly the gear that made eles viable again. We’ve always had to rely on a huge amount of boons (remember buggy Zephyr’s Boon? Everyone used it, just as elemental attunement and renewing stamina).
Those traits are fine but here comes the real problem. A class should be viable on its own and gear should only tweak and enhance the build you’re running by a tiny bit. So the might-stacking should be integrated into the ele-build and not on the gear. This way it could be balanced way more easily.

Still eles (regardless of build) are countered by some classes and/or certain gameplay. I personally (I play ele myself, no might-stacking/celestial though) don’t have a problem with them.

that is not entirely true, eles were fine before celestial amy + extreme might stacking got added into pvp

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Posted by: Gorni.1764

Gorni.1764

that is not entirely true, eles were fine before celestial amy + extreme might stacking got added into pvp

I agree that some ele-players managed to play at high ranking (at that time I was at the same ~200 sQ as I am now) but it wasn’t playable for the vast majority of the community. Eles were basically extinct in official tournaments and also very rare in soloQ and teamQ. I fear that a nerf to that gear will drive eles to extinction again (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing because I will always be loyal to my ele regardless of patch-changes – then I can be proud of playing ele again).

Rachat – Elementalist (Abbadon’s Mouth)

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

I, too, agree that might-stacking should be toned down. Trim some of the might sharing so that it is harder to cap, please, for build diversity. A few professions’ ranged weapons on high might stacks seem cheesy.

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

Just revert that stupid crit damage nerf. This will make berserkers a lot stronger which is necessary because celestial kittens all over it. The crit damage nerf is a big reason everybody is celestial

I’m pretty sure part of the reason crit damage was nerfed was because they tested the changes to the might stacking runes and found that zerker sets did too much damage. Rather than just reverting that change they decided to nerf crit dmg/ferocity which has lead to this issue of it being better to have tanky gear and might stacking than something glassy.

I have no proof of this but it seems to make sense. I for one would much rather have the old crit damage values and less might than what we currently have.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

well if might stacking gets nerfed likely well see a lot of build wich rely on it dies.

I’d be ok with that, shouldn’t be promoting a lack of build diversity with such dominate builds lurking around. Why go zerker when you can just out-live your opponent(s)?

Same reason I advocate that air and fire sigils be deemed the same type so they cannot be combined on a weapon set. Burst in the wrong location resulting in unnecessary nerfs to some builds for no reason. Nerf the weapon not the wielder.

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Posted by: Relshdan.6854

Relshdan.6854

Disclaimer:
He is talking about the least played game mode in GW2 aka PvP.

You can nerf those and ruin even more the game for 99% of gw2 players…..

Or nerf the celestial amulet and keep the problem in PvP where it should be addressed since in WWW/PvE those are not a thing.

THIS.
wish pvp players would clarify they only want such changes in their tiny section of the game…….and realize that due to Anets balancing practice, they are going to ruin the game for 90+% of the playerbase if they get their wishes.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

I would actually say that boons and boon stacking in general (particularly in this specific instance might) can, and should be considered a bit out of control.

Not just “a bit”.
But more specifically, the issue is how present boons are in combat. I think their overall strength is fine, or well, I actually think they’re mostly too weak.
On the other hand, I shouldn’t run around with 25 might stacks. That should be an absolute highlight of an entire evening of combat, those 10 seconds when I had 25 stacks of might and would deal double~triple damage (to give an example), killing 5 players in 10 seconds. Happens at best once an evening, mind you.

So what I’d do (the same applies to conditions!):

  • Substantially reduce access to boons, fiddle with their durations, and increase individual cooldowns. In total few weapon skills should ever give boons lasting longer than a second maybe, and even then only on skills with 40-45 seconds CD. As a balance guideline, if you can be under the effect of Fury 4-5 seconds out of 60, that’s plenty.
  • Substantially increase the power of boons. Fury should simply set you to 100% crit chance. Might should increase your damage by 4% per stack but if you hit 25, it further doubles it’s bonus from 100% to 200%. Protection should be 66% reduction. Regeneration should be strong and scale really well.
  • Remove most boon stripping. Further, make all non-elite boon stripping single-target only, and ofc no weapon skills which strip. Access is very limited and mostly via utility, removal should be the same. Killing Might off of someone before they get to attack ruins their damage strategy entirely due to how strong it can be.
  • Revisit duration-increase foods and traits and such. Cap it at 25% maximum, between all effects. Of this the traitline can be 15%. Sigils for individual boons with 10% duration should exist, all-durations should be 5%. Etc. Runes should again be 10% for an individual boon or 5% to all. Boon-proccing sigils and runes should not exist.

Again, same goes for all conditions, Confusion should kill you if you keep attacking. Period. Ofc, you’ll be under it’s effects maybe 5-10 seconds out of 60, and that’s assuming more than one target attacks you. Torment should make you want to stand still, soft-immobilize. Again, you won’t see it often but it will make you stop, one way or another.

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Posted by: Bran.7425

Bran.7425

Just revert that stupid crit damage nerf. This will make berserkers a lot stronger which is necessary because celestial kittens all over it. The crit damage nerf is a big reason everybody is celestial

If you are considering sPvP in the equation the critical damage nerf never happened the ferocity maintained the same possible in that mode of play.

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

Might is not the problem. Might sharing is.

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

I suspect that if warriors stacked might like eles do, the OP would not have made this thread. Evidence of this is in some other threads, such as once about the recent movement skill bugs. When someone makes 4 post claiming the warrior deserves special attention to the bugs effecting its skills and the other professions should be secondary to that and list 11 paragraphs attempting to convince you that is a fact, it says a lot about the bias for and against other professions that a poster has. In this case I feel a similar bias is clear.

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

I suspect that if warriors stacked might like eles do, the OP would not have made this thread. Evidence of this is in some other threads, such as once about the recent movement skill bugs. When someone makes 4 post claiming the warrior deserves special attention to the bugs effecting its skills and the other professions should be secondary to that and list 11 paragraphs attempting to convince you that is a fact, it says a lot about the bias for and against other professions that a poster has. In this case I feel a similar bias is clear.

I love that you now basically forum stalk me and try to spread this whole “Burr r War, he knows nothing” message when atm it’s my least played class. Have you forgotten that Warrior is very, very good at might stacking? They would be hit just as hard as Eles by nerfing Might stacking since the reason most Hambows use Soldier ammy is because the Runes of Strength/Battle with the Combustive Shot + Arcing Arrow + Earthshaker combo makes up for the lack of crit damage. You act like i have an issue with Eles when I don’t.

NO CLASS should be able to maintain high might stacks without any team interaction. The duration pre-buff was fine, you could have a brief surge in damage but not a sustained one without help from teammates. I would much rather have back the old crit damage values and low might stacking because then it would require having glassier gear in order to deal damage and not a rune/sigil combo.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

I suspect that if warriors stacked might like eles do, the OP would not have made this thread. Evidence of this is in some other threads, such as once about the recent movement skill bugs. When someone makes 4 post claiming the warrior deserves special attention to the bugs effecting its skills and the other professions should be secondary to that and list 11 paragraphs attempting to convince you that is a fact, it says a lot about the bias for and against other professions that a poster has. In this case I feel a similar bias is clear.

I love that you now basically forum stalk me and try to spread this whole “Burr r War, he knows nothing” message when atm it’s my least played class. Have you forgotten that Warrior is very, very good at might stacking? They would be hit just as hard as Eles by nerfing Might stacking since the reason most Hambows use Soldier ammy is because the Runes of Strength/Battle with the Combustive Shot + Arcing Arrow + Earthshaker combo makes up for the lack of crit damage. You act like i have an issue with Eles when I don’t.

NO CLASS should be able to maintain high might stacks without any team interaction. The duration pre-buff was fine, you could have a brief surge in damage but not a sustained one without help from teammates. I would much rather have back the old crit damage values and low might stacking because then it would require having glassier gear in order to deal damage and not a rune/sigil combo.

this ^^

All is Vain~
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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

NO CLASS should be able to maintain high might stacks without any team interaction. The duration pre-buff was fine, you could have a brief surge in damage but not a sustained one without help from teammates. I would much rather have back the old crit damage values and low might stacking because then it would require having glassier gear in order to deal damage and not a rune/sigil combo.

Why should no profession be capable of stacking a lot of might? You make a lot of suggestions, assumptions, and exclamations of how you believe things should be, but you do not go very far in defining why it is a problem. You also do appear to fail to realize something. Professions do not stack might, builds do. You really should list the specific builds that you feel are problematic. It is almost never one or two things, but generally a specific combinations of traits, gear, weapons, and utility skills, in specific combinations that are a problem.

You go out of your way to bold the term, yet completely fail to comprehend that professions do not natively do anything in the form of your accusations, but that specific builds do.

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Posted by: MightyMicah.7451

MightyMicah.7451

Disclaimer:
He is talking about the least played game mode in GW2 aka PvP.

You can nerf those and ruin even more the game for 99% of gw2 players…..

Or nerf the celestial amulet and keep the problem in PvP where it should be addressed since in WWW/PvE those are not a thing.

Your claims plus your sig reveal your lack of balancing knowledge.

This is that new sound. Ya’ll ain’t ready.

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

NO CLASS should be able to maintain high might stacks without any team interaction. The duration pre-buff was fine, you could have a brief surge in damage but not a sustained one without help from teammates. I would much rather have back the old crit damage values and low might stacking because then it would require having glassier gear in order to deal damage and not a rune/sigil combo.

Why should no profession be capable of stacking a lot of might? You make a lot of suggestions, assumptions, and exclamations of how you believe things should be, but you do not go very far in defining why it is a problem. You also do appear to fail to realize something. Professions do not stack might, builds do. You really should list the specific builds that you feel are problematic. It is almost never one or two things, but generally a specific combinations of traits, gear, weapons, and utility skills, in specific combinations that are a problem.

You go out of your way to bold the term, yet completely fail to comprehend that professions do not natively do anything in the form of your accusations, but that specific builds do.

All I have done is lay down reasons as to why excessive might stacking is bad:

  • Allows tanky gear to still deal good damage. Massive boost to sustain with marginal DPS loss.
  • Pre-Buff the might was a temporary damage boost, now it is a sustained one. Being able to have an almost permanent 10-15 might + Runes of strength means you’re dealing +15% more damage. What is the point of glassier sets like zerker when most builds gain little from those might stacks while sacrificing a ton of sustain. Only Thief really benefits. In general a glassy build won’t have enough sustain to kill a tanky set with might stacking, they’ll outlast while still dealing good damage.
  • In PvP it is now basically tanky v tanky.
  • There’s little to no specialization now. Most builds are basically self contained and can do everything on their own.
  • Some professions are better at stacking might than others. However, there’s rarely a reason not to bring Strength/Might because it’s still a consistent +6% or more damage. The Sigil of Intelligence buff also made having a low crit chance less of an issue as well.
  • Basically, the Ferocity patch did way too much at once and shifted the meta away from specialization and more towards each player being the whole package on their own.
  • Finally, I never said that no class should be able to stack high amounts of Might. Notice the words maintain and team interaction. Once again you pick and choose my words and twist them.
Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

All I have done is lay down reasons as to why excessive might stacking is bad:

No. You have laid reasons you think it is bad.

  • Allows tanky gear to still deal good damage. Massive boost to sustain with marginal DPS loss.

I do not find celestial gear or rabid gear as tanky. I do not see an excess in use of soldiers gear in the tourneys when I watch them.

  • Pre-Buff the might was a temporary damage boost, now it is a sustained one. Being able to have an almost permanent 10-15 might + Runes of strength means you’re dealing +15% more damage. What is the point of glassier sets like zerker when most builds gain little from those might stacks while sacrificing a ton of sustain. Only Thief really benefits. In general a glassy build won’t have enough sustain to kill a tanky set with might stacking, they’ll outlast while still dealing good damage.

I am not against toning down the might stacking runes. It does not prevent me from stacking might to the level I do now. It simply made it a very small margin easier.

  • In PvP it is now basically tanky v tanky.

I disagree. I am curious though, how are you coming to this conclusion?

  • There’s little to no specialization now. Most builds are basically self contained and can do everything on their own.

Not true my friend. there is a very large difference between bunker, debunker, Point Assaulter, Roamer, Support, and Bruiser style builds currently used in play.

You have to be careful and not base your assumptions based on new players, and those who follow “assumed” meta builds in low end solo Q.

  • Some professions are better at stacking might than others. However, there’s rarely a reason not to bring Strength/Might because it’s still a consistent +6% or more damage. The Sigil of Intelligence buff also made having a low crit chance less of an issue as well.

If this is the case, would you care to look at the EU, NA, and China teams build list in the last 2 ToL and tell me what percentage of players are using this? I am going through the individual builds as they are all laid out on the site. I do not see a problematic level.

  • Basically, the Ferocity patch did way too much at once and shifted the meta away from specialization and more towards each player being the whole package on their own.

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren’t you complaining about a condition meta at that time emerging? It was proven to not actually exist.

  • Finally, I never said that no class should be able to stack high amounts of Might. Notice the words maintain and team interaction. Once again you pick and choose my words and twist them.

Just returning the favor my friend.

You still have avoided listed the builds you feel are a problem. If you would do that, we could discuss thoughts on what particular traits+runes+sigils+utilities+weapons are problematic when combines. As I know I had no difficulty maintaining large stacks of might before, it would help if you specified how it was done before versus now that is problematic, and how they could possibly be adjusted.

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

I’ve decided that once again I’m going to go back to ignoring your posts. The discussion never gets anywhere, you accuse me of doing something then do the same thing in the same post, and you’ll switch the topic whenever the argument turns against you. I notice quite a few have already done that it’s just that my hardheadedness prevented me from doing so earlier. I honestly had forgotten that you were the one I decided to ignore in the past.

As to the less hostile and more constructive posters, please continue.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

I’ve decided that once again I’m going to go back to ignoring your posts. The discussion never gets anywhere, you accuse me of doing something then do the same thing in the same post, and you’ll switch the topic whenever the argument turns against you. I notice quite a few have already done that it’s just that my hardheadedness prevented me from doing so earlier. I honestly had forgotten that you were the one I decided to ignore in the past.

As to the less hostile and more constructive posters, please continue.

What is so hostile about disagreeing with your opinion, and asking for specific details?

It seems fairly reasonable to ask you to provide some facts as to how something is a problem. You have stayed repeatedly what about it you feel is a problem., but you seem to refuse to provide what to do about it, or to actually support your implication that “everyone is doing it” or that it is a problem beyond the scope of new or inexperienced players.

Let’s bring this down to your personal experience then. What builds do you feel are problematic? When you played those builds, what level of might were you stacking and maintaining, and what were you having to do to maintain them?

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

dancing didn’t provide any facts either really

i agree with OP, celestial + might sigils/runes are really problematic and almost mandatory if you want to play to win in pvp

if i recall correctly, even devs said themself runes/sigils shouldn’t be build defining but support it…..

i still think reducing max amount of might stacks in pvp would be good step toward fixing this issue and intoduce more build varierity

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

(edited by Cynz.9437)

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

dancing didn’t provide any facts either really

I haven’t claimed to *prove anything though. Burr is the only one doing that. I have still been waiting for him, or anyone else, to link the specific builds that are a problem, and explain to use how they play them that stacks might so badly. No one is providing the builds that are a problem.

How you play them is relevant too. As someone said before in reference to eles. When you fight them in a stationary of tight location, you allow them to stay in their fire fields and lay and blast fire fields as fast as cool downs will let them. They do not maintain might my purely mystical means. Players play against them poorly, and allow the ele to control the flow and location of battle. A good player will keep them on the move.

Guardians Empower is 12 stacks of might for 10s on a 16s cool down, before any boon duration what so ever. Has been forever. Yet might stacking is just now a concern?

if i recall correctly, even devs said themself runes/sigils shouldn’t be build defining but support it…..

That would suggest no one stacked might before any changes. Might stacking was always beneficial before but worked in a context of stacking all boons and not just might. All they changed was to segregate the boons to individual runes, and give them a 15% more in duration and a 25% chance on being struck to gain might.

The runes are not particularly build defining. We were stacking might with over all boon stacking previously.

(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)

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Posted by: vincecontix.1264

vincecontix.1264

dancing didn’t provide any facts either really

i agree with OP, celestial + might sigils/runes are really problematic and almost mandatory if you want to play to win in pvp

if i recall correctly, even devs said themself runes/sigils shouldn’t be build defining but support it…..

i still think reducing max amount of might stacks in pvp would be good step toward fixing this issue and intoduce more build varierity

You know not sure I agree with you, from a thief’s perspective sure celestial+might is strong. Though from wars, guards, ele, engi, necro its not really an issue.

Also coordinated spikes from thief+mesmer zerker duo are reall strong.

Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

dancing didn’t provide any facts either really

i agree with OP, celestial + might sigils/runes are really problematic and almost mandatory if you want to play to win in pvp

if i recall correctly, even devs said themself runes/sigils shouldn’t be build defining but support it…..

i still think reducing max amount of might stacks in pvp would be good step toward fixing this issue and intoduce more build varierity

You know not sure I agree with you, from a thief’s perspective sure celestial+might is strong. Though from wars, guards, ele, engi, necro its not really an issue.

Also coordinated spikes from thief+mesmer zerker duo are reall strong.

celestial + str runes/int sigils are strong and meta defining because they allow tanks and hybrids dish out dmg comparable to glass builds which kind of nullifies any logic behind having glass builds to sacrifice any survival for dmg

yes might stacking was in game before but runes/sigil addition allowed to extend might duration and stacking to the point where getting 20 even 25 stacks became pretty easy for some builds while not sacrificing much of survival for it (if any at all)

int sigil same issue: allows certain builds completely ignore pecision stat and invest more into survival while getting crits from weapon swaps ( sup eles, wars, engis, guards)

allowing 2 sigils on 2H weapons and splitting ICD on sigil made situation even worse

i do not think that Anet would revert ICD and 2 sigils on 2H change so i think runes/amule/sigils need to be adressed in pvp

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

celestial + str runes/int sigils are strong and meta defining because they allow tanks and hybrids dish out dmg comparable to glass builds

Prove it. Make us a video of a true glass cannon build and show us the full damage output of the build. Then take the same profession and build a true tank build with the same profession and show us the damage is even close.

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

Some professions depend on might and builds to maximize stacks require trades to achieve. That is not the “problem.”

Sharing might to other professions who did not make the trades is what can be troublesome. I main Necro and can say a power necro on a 25 stack is awesome. Other professions with much better bursting like Ele can do godly damage and heals. A War pays for his shouts but in large groups a constant 20-25 might feels like cheese. It is the sharing that may be going overboard, not profession mechanics.

Personally, I would not mind if Arenanet trimmed a little duration off of outgoing might to reduce the ease of capping it on builds that have not paid for it.

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Posted by: Artaz.3819

Artaz.3819

Some professions depend on might and builds to maximize stacks require trades to achieve. That is not the “problem.”

Sharing might to other professions who did not make the trades is what can be troublesome. I main Necro and can say a power necro on a 25 stack is awesome. Other professions with much better bursting like Ele can do godly damage and heals. A War pays for his shouts but in large groups a constant 20-25 might feels like cheese. It is the sharing that may be going overboard, not profession mechanics.

Personally, I would not mind if Arenanet trimmed a little duration off of outgoing might to reduce the ease of capping it on builds that have not paid for it.

To be fair, this is the SAME issue in dungeon ‘speed clearing’/Fractal runs. Classes sharing AoE Might boon with one another (all groups basically run glass-cannon and Might sharing amplifies the issue). Ergo, the might boon sharing completely diminishes any challenge in dungeons/world zerg content for the most part too.

So this issue is not just limited to balance in sPvP.

If there was any change (although I hate to say it because we all have become so accustomed to it) would be to nerf Fire field AoE blasting. (3 stacks of AoE might with 20s duration, no boon modifiers is REALLY powerful; especially classes that can multi-blast their own fire fields)

Although adjusting Rune/Sigil is more universal for potential adjustment, it will not address the core fundamental classes that would continue to use Cele/Might AoE Fire blast stacking for sPvP.

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Posted by: vincecontix.1264

vincecontix.1264

dancing didn’t provide any facts either really

i agree with OP, celestial + might sigils/runes are really problematic and almost mandatory if you want to play to win in pvp

if i recall correctly, even devs said themself runes/sigils shouldn’t be build defining but support it…..

i still think reducing max amount of might stacks in pvp would be good step toward fixing this issue and intoduce more build varierity

You know not sure I agree with you, from a thief’s perspective sure celestial+might is strong. Though from wars, guards, ele, engi, necro its not really an issue.

Also coordinated spikes from thief+mesmer zerker duo are reall strong.

celestial + str runes/int sigils are strong and meta defining because they allow tanks and hybrids dish out dmg comparable to glass builds which kind of nullifies any logic behind having glass builds to sacrifice any survival for dmg

yes might stacking was in game before but runes/sigil addition allowed to extend might duration and stacking to the point where getting 20 even 25 stacks became pretty easy for some builds while not sacrificing much of survival for it (if any at all)

int sigil same issue: allows certain builds completely ignore pecision stat and invest more into survival while getting crits from weapon swaps ( sup eles, wars, engis, guards)

allowing 2 sigils on 2H weapons and splitting ICD on sigil made situation even worse

i do not think that Anet would revert ICD and 2 sigils on 2H change so i think runes/amule/sigils need to be adressed in pvp

You know might affects other stats build as well? Wouldn’t a zerker class with 20+ stacks of might do insane damage?

IMO the change to sigils was good as it allows for a larger variety of builds.

With regards to Intel sigils the bufg was necessary to make it viable, an yet man player still run something else.

Also there are still a lot of meta specs that don’t run celestial.

Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

dancing didn’t provide any facts either really

i agree with OP, celestial + might sigils/runes are really problematic and almost mandatory if you want to play to win in pvp

if i recall correctly, even devs said themself runes/sigils shouldn’t be build defining but support it…..

i still think reducing max amount of might stacks in pvp would be good step toward fixing this issue and intoduce more build varierity

You know not sure I agree with you, from a thief’s perspective sure celestial+might is strong. Though from wars, guards, ele, engi, necro its not really an issue.

Also coordinated spikes from thief+mesmer zerker duo are reall strong.

celestial + str runes/int sigils are strong and meta defining because they allow tanks and hybrids dish out dmg comparable to glass builds which kind of nullifies any logic behind having glass builds to sacrifice any survival for dmg

yes might stacking was in game before but runes/sigil addition allowed to extend might duration and stacking to the point where getting 20 even 25 stacks became pretty easy for some builds while not sacrificing much of survival for it (if any at all)

int sigil same issue: allows certain builds completely ignore pecision stat and invest more into survival while getting crits from weapon swaps ( sup eles, wars, engis, guards)

allowing 2 sigils on 2H weapons and splitting ICD on sigil made situation even worse

i do not think that Anet would revert ICD and 2 sigils on 2H change so i think runes/amule/sigils need to be adressed in pvp

You know might affects other stats build as well? Wouldn’t a zerker class with 20+ stacks of might do insane damage?

IMO the change to sigils was good as it allows for a larger variety of builds.

With regards to Intel sigils the bufg was necessary to make it viable, an yet man player still run something else.

Also there are still a lot of meta specs that don’t run celestial.

ofc zerker with 20 might stacks would do high dmg but they will also die really fast, hybrids/tanks don’t have that issue

i don’t say sigil change was really bad but it worsened the issue with bunkers/hybrids doing actual dmg

not sure what to say you about your int sigil response, i can also claim that many runs those sigils…

yeah the other meta specs are either full bunker or nightmare runes necro…

ah i forgot thieves that are forced into zerker

All is Vain~
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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

Artaz, your thoughts echo mine. The fire field is one of the skills foremost in my mind and group PvE was another. Ele’s need the fire field for their own use but sharing it with others can boost group dps quickly and easily.

The first three professions in GWEN are there, at least in part, for boon spamming. The effectiveness of that combination is hard to dispute and is pervasive throughout the game.

Arenanet has focused a lot in the past on trimming conditions and making sure each profession has access to them along with mitigation for them. It may be time to look at boons.

(edited by Anchoku.8142)

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

There are a lot of imbalances and they aren’t recent relating to this topic.

-change to ferocity meant a nerf to zerker amulet. To compensate, anet buffed the stats. Unfortunatly this made dps trait lines even less important.

-Might stacking from new and improved strength runes and going into boon duration trait lines meant using quick and heavy might stacking for your dps again, making dps trait lines less important.

-sigils were all given separate cooldowns which was great, except the air/fire combo now replaced dps spikes which again made dps trait lines less important.

-Overall, dps trait lines are less important because people were able to make builds that did heavy spike damage and then use the might to just get stronger and stronger and overwhelm the enemy. For w/e reason, might is not prioritized during boon steal/removal so it wasn’t really risky to use. Even if it was removed, they can obtain it all back rather quickly.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

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Posted by: scerevisiae.1972

scerevisiae.1972

rune of strength IMO still a little too good. +7% dmg any time you have might is in practise a constant +7% dmg, plus the +20% might duration.

downed state is bad for PVP

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Posted by: Ulion.5476

Ulion.5476

Well the rune of strength was nerf awhile ago to 5% down from 7%. Still 25 stack of might increases dps by 25-30% and with runes of strength you get the 5% modify too. Celestial was buffed to being useable in spvp awhile ago. Before then celestial stat were so low that it did not work with any trait set-up in spvp. The ferocity nerf to celestial gear effected pve/wvw builds. In spvp you should not be able to 1v1 a tank spec before they get help. Killing a tank spec ele in a 2v1 situation is just about chain cc them.

Ele – Tarnished Coast
“Quoth the raven nevermore”
Platinum Scout: 300% MF

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Posted by: laquito.5269

laquito.5269

Engi and especially Ele benefit from Celestial + Might stacking so much more than other classes, it’s unreal. Cele is the only reason Ele is still in meta, cuz they abuse the kitten out of this combo.

Retired GW2 Player

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Posted by: vincecontix.1264

vincecontix.1264

Engi and especially Ele benefit from Celestial + Might stacking so much more than other classes, it’s unreal. Cele is the only reason Ele is still in meta, cuz they abuse the kitten out of this combo.

Can you please tell what is the mights stacking celestial meta engi build that some people keep bring up?

Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
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