Guild Wars 2

Most boss such as spider are easily doable by stacking in a corner where the boss main mechanic such as web breath weapon will not work. since the boss only hit one player at a time it makes prety much fight where the player should actualy avoid standing still a joke fest. An exelent way to kill stacking would to provide the bosses the ability to do cleaving attack with their auto attack ability. This effectively makes all the 5 player take serious damage at the same time and force them to spread out so not to have the party obliterated into 5 or 6 hit.

Im not doing the promotion of stuff like tanking or healing maniac here but actualy of actual good dungeon fighting because people have been hiding in the corners for to long.

before anyone cry about this idea behing lame ill remind you that most of the boss you people are stacking on werent designed with the idea of standing still in a corner to avoid all the boss mechanics and taking hits while overhealing everything you guys are suposed to dodge and move around.

Most attacks already cleave/AoE.

The reason why stacking works is because most enemies die really fast and deal low damage.

stack on colocal queen! i dare you!

srs tho some of the new bosses are really cool and i hope they go back and repolish some of the older bosses

and by repolish i mean get them a gym membership and help them get buff, not give them a bus pass like they did to poor Spiderpath

kyubi.3620:

before anyone cry about this idea behing lame ill remind you that most of the boss you people are stacking on werent designed with the idea of standing still in a corner to avoid all the boss mechanics and taking hits while overhealing everything you guys are suposed to dodge and move around.

Bosses werent designed to be kited around the room either. How you fight them is irrelevant. Stacking or kiting is not something that anet should base boss design on. Stacking works because bosses arent dangerous enough and support is achieved through being close to your allies. If bosses were more difficult, organised groups would still stack but they would use advanced techniques to avoid the damage.

kyubi.3620:

Most boss such as spider are easily doable by stacking in a corner where the boss main mechanic such as web breath weapon will not work.

Have you even fought the spider queen since they changed the poison attack to occur in melee range? It completely destroys unorganised groups that try to stack.

I think what we need is mobs to have autoattacks. They don’t need to be overly damaging, but if mobs had the same auto-cleave attacks we did, and we would be trying to glass-cannon-rush the dungeon… yeah. It’d work, but stacking might not be the best idea.

Another idea is to copy more from mobs such as Toxic Alliance or now the Mordon. They have interesting abilities which break up the stack-train.

What we need is for ANet to stop investing all their resources in PvE and start developing WvW.

That said, how you decide to defeat these incredibly mundane boss fights is up to you. Not allowing stacking, turning on collision detection, or doing your AE cleave isn’t going to change much at all. If they didn’t want you to stack they’d introduce boss mechanics that discouraged it. Like spamming AE’s faster than you can regen dodge. Or making you jump over fights.

There are several encounters like this. Don’t blame the players for exploiting the encounter designer’s laziness.

What has this to do with PROFESSION balance? I Find it a good idea mostly but maybe post it in the dungeon forum?

Atherakhia.4086:

What we need is for ANet to stop investing all their resources in PvE and start developing WvW.

Hrm, I more want WvW to be directly integrated into the LS.
I remember during the Kessex Hills parts we had those toxic offshoots blocking the camps in WvW, I was a bit disappointed that it only affected the neutral NPCs camps, not our resource camps.

But in a similar way to that, I’d like more interaction with the current content. Vines attacking Towers and tearing out parts of the walls for example, making for easy caps.

Carighan.6758:

Atherakhia.4086:

What we need is for ANet to stop investing all their resources in PvE and start developing WvW.

Hrm, I more want WvW to be directly integrated into the LS.
I remember during the Kessex Hills parts we had those toxic offshoots blocking the camps in WvW, I was a bit disappointed that it only affected the neutral NPCs camps, not our resource camps.

But in a similar way to that, I’d like more interaction with the current content. Vines attacking Towers and tearing out parts of the walls for example, making for easy caps.

I’d love this too, but I know tons of hardcore WvW players absolutely HATED the spores.

Durzlla.6295:

I’d love this too, but I know tons of hardcore WvW players absolutely HATED the spores.

Yeah, that’s really a bit of a shame that we have such a strong divide among WvW players. On the one hand you have those who want the purest PvP from it, ideally far away from the towers and castles and anything influencing the outcome. And on the other hand those who are annoyed that LS is all PvE-only and nothing ever changes in their game mode.

Replace all trash mobs with risen devastators and bosses with Korga. There you go, murderous trash mobs and bosses nobody wants to fight.

Holl.3109:

What has this to do with PROFESSION balance? I Find it a good idea mostly but maybe post it in the dungeon forum?

Because there’s already like 40 of these threads in Dungeon forum and we give the same response every time which is basically “deal with it”.

There’s no need to force stacking to not work, just design new and better boss/dungeon mechanics and let the players decide how to accomplish them.

There’s no need to change anything. You can play however you want – if you want to stack – you stack.
If you don’t – you don’t.

Also I don’t remember stacking negating boss mechanics.

Instead of the holy trinity Tank and Spank, we have Stack and Smack! lol

I’m personally not a fan, core design mechanics make this better but since every fight can’t have a designated mechanic I think the best solution would be for mobs to try to maintain a certain distance, as opposed to just running strait at the group. It makes pulls less effective but it also means if you want to stack you need to have a proper comp full of stuns and immobilizes. (also if this was put in they should reduce the ‘Defiance’ stacks a bit.)

Another solution to this problem would be movement of the boss
If boss is not near you, you cant close combat him. You need to be ranged..
It would be cool if bosses would move more and have more skills so that they can run away from you and cast some spell.
We dont want boss to stand still like a rock. Let him move his legs more… They have to move more..
Example let him move while casting spells.. Why would he need to stand still and cast spells.. We can move and cast spells, so let them move and cast spells…
Jesuse fix this already its been over 1 year…

stacking works because of los. Add that bosses break combat when touching walls for more than 1/2sec. → fixed

Then you would just run to the boss and, well, stack on it.

so…

you want more mobs and bosses like…

Lupi,
Mai Trin,
and Pre nerf Dredge…

I am ok with this.

What about no?
just give some AI to bosses (because running straight into players and using the same attack rotation is not AI).

Players stack in a corner?
Boss should just go away and wait and aoe the corner if possible.

Removing the trinity without proper mechanics was the mistake.

LordByron.8369:

Players stack in a corner?
Boss should just go away and wait and aoe the corner if possible.

Then people would just safe spot bosses.

Ive said for a while, get a boss that deals one hit damage. Cannot be evaded, blocked, and by passes invulnerability. Needs to be interrupted. Defiant makes this more tricky.

You can’t prevent stacking just by getting away from a wall. Howling King in AC, for example, isn’t always pulled against a wall (although it does help), you can just stack up on top of him. Even mechanics like the guy in SE who puts fire on everybody doesn’t stop stacking because the benefits of you stacking are worth the detriment of taking the damage.

You need to make the benefits of stacking, with all of the additional buffs, healing, etc. not worth the danger. And frankly in a game that is supposedly all about skill you should be able to stack if your team has built for it and can do it skillfully (think Spider Queen).

People are trying to remove stacking by putting in mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with skillful play, and just having a boss that refuses to stack despite that being how GW2 was obviously designed to be played with the combo system.

spoj.9672:

Then people would just safe spot bosses.

He didn’t mean stop attacking. He meant go to range, pull out the 1500 boss-range bow the boss has, and start chain-barraging the stack spot.

If you force people to fight bosses in a certain way then more and more people will try to find exploits and safe spots to cheese it. Or just not do the content. And an anti stacking mechanic like that will probably be very easy to exploit and prevent the boss from not attacking anyone (Move in and out of stack spot, watch boss get stuck running between spots).

The best solution is just to make bosses dangerous so there is risk when you stack. Just like they did with the spider queens poison. This forces you to have a proper plan when you stack to dps a boss.

spoj.9672:

If you force people to fight bosses in a certain way then more and more people will try to find exploits and safe spots to cheese it. Or just not do the content. And an anti stacking mechanic like that will probably be very easy to exploit and prevent the boss from not attacking anyone (Move in and out of stack spot, watch boss get stuck running between spots).

The best solution is just to make bosses dangerous so there is risk when you stack. Just like they did with the spider queens poison. This forces you to have a proper plan when you stack to dps a boss.

Or they could just make it so the bosses AoE barrage of doom is used anytime X amount of players are so close to each other so one person moving doesn’t phase the AI.

Durzlla.6295:

spoj.9672:

If you force people to fight bosses in a certain way then more and more people will try to find exploits and safe spots to cheese it. Or just not do the content. And an anti stacking mechanic like that will probably be very easy to exploit and prevent the boss from not attacking anyone (Move in and out of stack spot, watch boss get stuck running between spots).

The best solution is just to make bosses dangerous so there is risk when you stack. Just like they did with the spider queens poison. This forces you to have a proper plan when you stack to dps a boss.

Or they could just make it so the bosses AoE barrage of doom is used anytime X amount of players are so close to each other so one person moving doesn’t phase the AI.

let’s be honest here, you’re not even thinking before you post these ideas

Durzlla.6295:

spoj.9672:

If you force people to fight bosses in a certain way then more and more people will try to find exploits and safe spots to cheese it. Or just not do the content. And an anti stacking mechanic like that will probably be very easy to exploit and prevent the boss from not attacking anyone (Move in and out of stack spot, watch boss get stuck running between spots).

The best solution is just to make bosses dangerous so there is risk when you stack. Just like they did with the spider queens poison. This forces you to have a proper plan when you stack to dps a boss.

Or they could just make it so the bosses AoE barrage of doom is used anytime X amount of players are so close to each other so one person moving doesn’t phase the AI.

K lol

spoj.9672:

If you force people to fight bosses in a certain way then more and more people will try to find exploits and safe spots to cheese it. Or just not do the content.

I just don’t do the content. Infact, I play about 1/4 the time I use to 6-12 months ago because of Anet listening to kittens like the OP and ruining this game one small change at a time. Eventually they’ll make enough changes as to force me from playing at all.

Mechanic to minimize stacking:
Boss drops some form of aoe on each player. Players not stacked will take relatively trivial damage, but stacked players will take the combined damage of each aoe. This would work with conditions as well.

kielbasamonster.5623:

Mechanic to minimize stacking:
Boss drops some form of aoe on each player. Players not stacked will take relatively trivial damage, but stacked players will take the combined damage of each aoe. This would work with conditions as well.

Subject Alpha.

I think using attacks to create an impetus for movement is certainly valid, but, it kind of seems like using an RPG bandaid on an Action-game injury.

Not that something like Wildstar or WoW hasn’t utilized the safety dance principal to great success. But this isn’t a game where movement serves to make mana management more challenging, this is a game where timing and movement have to bear the entire weight of combat. It should probably be taking cues from highly mobile action game enemies, long before it starts to get into those cattleprod afterthoughts RPGs put forward.

maha.7902:

Durzlla.6295:

spoj.9672:

If you force people to fight bosses in a certain way then more and more people will try to find exploits and safe spots to cheese it. Or just not do the content. And an anti stacking mechanic like that will probably be very easy to exploit and prevent the boss from not attacking anyone (Move in and out of stack spot, watch boss get stuck running between spots).

The best solution is just to make bosses dangerous so there is risk when you stack. Just like they did with the spider queens poison. This forces you to have a proper plan when you stack to dps a boss.

Or they could just make it so the bosses AoE barrage of doom is used anytime X amount of players are so close to each other so one person moving doesn’t phase the AI.

let’s be honest here, you’re not even thinking before you post these ideas

Was just throwing out a different option, not saying it’s the best or that they SHOULD do it.

“All mobs grant retaliation to each other when within 200range”. There you go. 2 birds 1 stone and all that.

robertul.3679:

“All mobs grant retaliation to each other when within 200range”. There you go. 2 birds 1 stone and all that.

yes…..

then Mesmers boon strip will be usefull again, And Necromancers can corrupt it….

I am ok with this.

then those of us that know, can pack all the trash into a nice package, strip the retal. and proceed to kill.

and everyone else will throw themselves onto the retal and die and then come to the forums complaining its to hard and to bring back stacking…

0.o

Ropechef.6192:

robertul.3679:

“All mobs grant retaliation to each other when within 200range”. There you go. 2 birds 1 stone and all that.

yes…..

then Mesmers boon strip will be usefull again, And Necromancers can corrupt it….

I am ok with this.

then those of us that know, can pack all the trash into a nice package, strip the retal. and proceed to kill.

and everyone else will throw themselves onto the retal and die and then come to the forums complaining its to hard and to bring back stacking…

0.o

You could also heal through it if you have a “healer”

spoj.9672:

LordByron.8369:

Players stack in a corner?
Boss should just go away and wait and aoe the corner if possible.

Then people would just safe spot bosses.

Are you saying this game can t have Artificial Intelligence on bosses?
Because if people find safe sposts it means a hole in the AI.

As it is stacking but since the AI is so bad that we can t even call it AI, its legit.
Safe spots would be exploiting by the same definition anet already gave.
(attacking from a spot where opponent can t attack).

LordByron.8369:

Are you saying this game can t have Artificial Intelligence on bosses?
Because if people find safe sposts it means a hole in the AI.

As it is stacking but since the AI is so bad that we can t even call it AI, its legit.
Safe spots would be exploiting by the same definition anet already gave.
(attacking from a spot where opponent can t attack).

Artificial Intelligence doesn’t lead to there not being safe spots. Look at Dark Souls, a game in some ways comparable: active combat, dodge mechanic, bosses with extremely high damage. Dark Souls still had bosses whose AI could be exploited, in fact DS took the idea of skill far further than GW2 ever will because you could beat the game at level 1, by abusing AI.

The AI has to have holes, it doesn’t work otherwise. ANet can make the holes more difficult to exploit, make the game more punishing of not beating the AI, but at the end of the day they want an active skill-based combat system, and putting in arbitrary mechanics to punish skillful use of the mechanics (stacking uses the mechanics far better than not stacking does) makes no sense.

Promote active gameplay without stacking, such as Mai Trin, and people start whining everywhere.

Nick.6972:

Promote active gameplay without stacking, such as Mai Trin, and people start whining everywhere.

No. People whine about Mai trin because the cannon phases are boring as hell and you can’t even block let alone dodge some of the attacks and the game makes absolutely zero effort to explain this to you. Mai trin is just plain badly designed, just how making spider boss projectiles unreflectable is bad design, you’re seeing projectiles, you put up reflect and it just goes through. The two examples are both not explained and lack consistency with the rest of the game.

Yes, but of course. And Liadri was badly designed too.
Right?
It’s more engaging to watch the boss soak all the damage while you sand right next to him as spam your auto attack.

Nick.6972:

Promote active gameplay without stacking, such as Mai Trin, and people start whining everywhere.

Make unfair bosses which don’t follow the established rules of the game and people start whining everywhere.

Nick.6972:

Yes, but of course. And Liadri was badly designed too.
Right?
It’s more engaging to watch the boss soak all the damage while you sand right next to him as spam your auto attack.

The standard methods of clearing certain bosses has no relation to its design. You can fgs Liadri aswell.

Why do you think Liadri is well designed? Because players are bad at killing her? As far as I can tell you are fighting the arena while dpsing a trivial boss. And her over the top weakness and melee spam encourages ranging and kiting. Personally i dont think thats good design. Challenging does not mean its well designed. Mai Trin and Mossman also fall under this category along with many others.

spoj.9672:

Why do you think Liadri is well designed? Because players are bad at killing her? As far as I can tell you are fighting the arena while dpsing a trivial boss. And her over the top weakness and melee spam encourages ranging and kiting. Personally i dont think thats good design. Challenging does not mean its well designed. Mai Trin and Mossman also fall under this category along with many others.

Personally I think that Liadri has good design elements and bad design elements; mostly good. Most of the elements of the fight are ‘fair’. You can learn the shadow drop rotation/tempo. You can learn how the crystals work. You can learn how the pully orbs work. There are some demented elements, like blinding the adds and allowing them to suicide and then potentially ressing. There’s one really bad element, which is the screen blur effect; obscuring the information the player should be recieving is not good design.

Nick.6972:

Yes, but of course. And Liadri was badly designed too.
Right?
It’s more engaging to watch the boss soak all the damage while you sand right next to him as spam your auto attack.

Why is liadri held up as some shining beacon of good design? I just did the orbs, ran to her, mashed keys and killed her. Is this some sort of super exciting challenging content? I’m not saying I want Mai trin to let me auto attack to death, I’m saying her mechanics are completely inconsistent with 99% of the game and there’s no in game documentation explaining this – in addition, the cannon phases are extremely tedious. This is why it is badly designed, not because I want to afk it. It’s not fun, inconsistent and it basically discriminates against necromancers.

#SaveTheNecromancers

http://youtu.be/Zq5GyR9sX-E

Bhawb.7408:

LordByron.8369:

Are you saying this game can t have Artificial Intelligence on bosses?
Because if people find safe sposts it means a hole in the AI.

As it is stacking but since the AI is so bad that we can t even call it AI, its legit.
Safe spots would be exploiting by the same definition anet already gave.
(attacking from a spot where opponent can t attack).

Artificial Intelligence doesn’t lead to there not being safe spots. Look at Dark Souls, a game in some ways comparable: active combat, dodge mechanic, bosses with extremely high damage. Dark Souls still had bosses whose AI could be exploited, in fact DS took the idea of skill far further than GW2 ever will because you could beat the game at level 1, by abusing AI.

The AI has to have holes, it doesn’t work otherwise. ANet can make the holes more difficult to exploit, make the game more punishing of not beating the AI, but at the end of the day they want an active skill-based combat system, and putting in arbitrary mechanics to punish skillful use of the mechanics (stacking uses the mechanics far better than not stacking does) makes no sense.

Dark souls as i told at least 10 times is the sequel of a long series of LOW BUDGET games (king’s field=>demon’s soul) that had infact amongst the worse AI ever seen before GW2 in a modern game.
It has the same issues of GW2: you learn how to fool the pathetic ai and you complete the game without equipment.

If you want to see some decent AI you might look at halo2-3 for example.

What i find extremely interesting is NPC behavior in skyrim also.
i you have few on map they have AI, but each one over a certain number uses scripted behaviors that are infact superior to GW2 AI.

Actually MMORPGs are famous for their lack of AI, and replaced those with numbers and the aggro management + the trinity system

You can see wich was anet mistake.

P.S. lliadri challenge was a glitched camera -.- nuff said.
Mai trinn was nor “active gameplay”.. too many onrehsot attack one unblockable and the other undodgeable……
Once again the BAD ai made players find workarounds.

Stacking is not the main issue, its just the result of players figuring out the easiest way of killing really poorly designed foes.

The real issue poor and lazy AI.

Entire AI is based on line of sight and auto attacking with occasional flavor skill just to hide the poor AI.

Foes don’t dodge, evade, block, move out of the way of your attacks. Even if they do they don’t do it when needed, they do it when their skill rotation tells them to do.
Enemies don’t interrupt skills, they don’t hide behind their tanks, they don’t run away from players, they do nothing.

Want to prevent people from stacking? make foes flee when you get close to them, make them move out of aoe, make them interrupt channeling skills, make them block attacks, dodge attacks, evade.

So if anything should be changed, AI should, even early days of gw1 had it, and with years it got really good. Why not just copy paste the algorithms, they worked in gw1, they would work here, with few tweaks.

Cmon don’t make your playerbase lazy, and then act surprised when people qq that events are too “hard” because it can’t be stack rushed. Stir things up, Dungeons and events are good as they are, just improve the AI.

Although it wouldn’t kill you if you released a few more dungeons/paths, WITH the updated AI, you know, to teach people how to dodge again.

They’ve actually tried to fix this, to some degree.

In CoE, the Golem that gets buffs from turrets can now move. This causes players to end up moving around to keep up with him when he decides to do the move-slide-dance. If he goes too far from the center, he will simply run back to the center. It is possible to get him near a wall, but not possible to stack on a wall/LoS corner vs him. The standard tactic my group uses to fight him is to shove him into a turret and force him near a wall from there.

In AC, the spider’s breath attack is an AoE attack that wipes groups. It is no longer affected by the LoS stack and the spittle attack can no longer be reflected. To counteract this, we simply have a Warrior use Fear Me! and it dies before the duration ends.

dungeons r lame need more pvp

more classes

more weapon types

more utility skills