Guild Wars 2

Done with both of them

Ele have WAAAAY to much sustain with the amount of burst they have
(ow but its very easy to dodge it!! yeah dodge 10000x bursts skills.. soon or later your out of evade and when that happens you get kittened, ow yeah dont think you kill them before that because they heal like crazy)

And Engi for its insane spam/CC/AI shave some of it.. they deliver to much pressure.

Call me a noob or whatever, dont care.. done with these 2 classes

What class are you struggling on to fight against the dreadful 66666 engi with turret rabid celestial battle doom geomancy intelligence bomb nade toolkit slickshoes elixir gun?

robertul.3679:

What class are you struggling on to fight against the dreadful 66666 engi with turret rabid celestial battle doom geomancy intelligence bomb nade toolkit slickshoes elixir gun?

but almost every engi build has " spam/CC/AI "

robertul.3679:

What class are you struggling on to fight against the dreadful 66666 engi with turret rabid celestial battle doom geomancy intelligence bomb nade toolkit slickshoes elixir gun?

^This guy gets it.

The problem I see with posters/players such as the OP, is that they fail to realize that a profession is not the problem, but possibly certain builds.

What build, specifically, on those professions is troubling you OP?

I will agree with you in terms of Celestial D/D Eles, their sustain is next to none and have some of the most consistent condi removal. When a class has almost 0 counters, that’s when balancing needs to be implemented. Even small changes would help out a lot, for example, fixing the air auto cancel(Maybe put the heal at the end of the cast and not at the middle? idk). I honestly think the problem is simply that D/D eles benefit way to much from Celestial, every single stat is a core part to their build. Other classes simply don’t benefit as much as Ele’s do.

In Terms of Engineers, I really don’t think they are in that bad of a spot. When you refer to AI I assume that you are talking about turret Engineers, as annoying as they are if you just ignore them the other team is at a number disadvantage. Those engineers are NOTHING without their turrets. Turret engineers really only effect the “newer” players though, they aren’t viable for a reason. In terms of the meta Cele Rifle Engi, this is very similar to a Cele D/D ele except for one major point, they can be shutdown. The problem with engi’s is that they have very limited escape-ability, and can only ever afford to carry one stunbreak at a time with a substantial CD. Along with that they are extremely vulnerable to condis, their only condi removal being their Healing Turret leaves them with almost nothing to do against necro’s and other condi classes. Yes, the cc is annoying but I think that’s just the “role” they play.
-Shnicky

Simon.3794:

robertul.3679:

What class are you struggling on to fight against the dreadful 66666 engi with turret rabid celestial battle doom geomancy intelligence bomb nade toolkit slickshoes elixir gun?

but almost every engi build has " spam/CC/AI "

Riiiiight. Every engineer build has CC (that’s what the profession is best at imo), but if you play kits (“spam”), you can’t play turrets (“AI”). So no, you ran into two different engineer builds and thought it was the same. I suggest you play one.

• Gear Block needs to get nerfed. There is no reason why it is better than a Warriors shield block. Either change how the skill functions or increase the recharge.
• Incendiary Powder also needs to get nerfed, you already have good access to bleeding and confusion, even better than Mesmers. Hell, I’m sure there is plenty of Necromancers cursing engineers because they kept their burning ability.
• Reduce the immobilize duration of Net Shot to 1 second but reduce the after cast, allowing the engineer to react faster but in contrast, allows the target to recover faster, more risk/reward.
• Blunderbuss, reduce the recharge to 8 seconds, remove the bleeding.
• Overcharged Shot, increase the recharge to 20 seconds.
• Jump Shot, reduce the casting time to 3/4th of a second and remove the vulnerability application.
• Slick Shoes, reduce the recharge to 30 seconds, reduce knockdown to 1 second. Kinda copied right from Shocking Aura, each attacker can be affected by this only once every 1 second vs. 2 from Shock Aura.
• Transmute, move to Grandmaster minor trait, Energy Conversion Matrix move to Master minor trait. Sorry engineers, if you want free condition removal every 15 seconds you need to put more into it.

I do not mind Engineers dealing super high damage, I do mind them dealing high damage, a block every 16 seconds and plenty of condition spam. You can have one or the other, but not all.

As for Elementalist, to much burning, so much burning.
Reduce the amount of burning with Drakes Breath, Ring of Fire and Burning Speed.
Our sustain won’t be as horrible when we can’t just spam burning on a bunch of people. Force Ele’s to take a more offensive approach with skills/traits, surviving isn’t the elementalists problem, it’s surviving AND killing.

• Drake Breath, reduce burning from 3 to 2, obvious reasons, even with just 3 ticks, 9 seconds of burning is just broken AND can easily land on multiple people.
• Ring of Fire, reduce the burning from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Not that big of an issue but in the chaos of a team fight, 5 seconds on 4 people can be a serious issue.
• Burning Speed, reduce the blast radius to 180, the blast is to big for it’s own good. Aim and timing would do the skill justice.
• Cleansing Water, enough with the powerful condition removal. How about this, “Cleansing Water – Soothing Mist passive regeneration is twice as effective. When Soothing Mist ends on an ally, it slightly heals and removes a condition.” There, you can no longer spike off conditions and serves as a passive regeneration plus passive condition removal. For those that don’t math, even if Soothing Mist healing is twice as good it still doesn’t match Virtue of Resolve, even with an uncontrolled condition removal, it still wouldn’t be worth it, so a small heal on the end would be a must to call this a grandmaster trait.

Oh, here is the big one.
DRUM ROLL PLEASE!!
.
.
.
.
.
Sigil of Doom! Reduce the poison to 3 seconds, down from 6! The healing reduction from poison turns bunkers into super bunkers, this should have been nerfed last balance patch.

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Gear Block needs to get nerfed. There is no reason why it is better than a Warriors shield block. Either change how the skill functions or increase the recharge.
• Incendiary Powder also needs to get nerfed, you already have good access to bleeding and confusion, even better than Mesmers. Hell, I’m sure there is plenty of Necromancers cursing engineers because they kept their burning ability.
• Reduce the immobilize duration of Net Shot to 1 second but reduce the after cast, allowing the engineer to react faster but in contrast, allows the target to recover faster, more risk/reward.
• Blunderbuss, reduce the recharge to 8 seconds, remove the bleeding.
• Overcharged Shot, increase the recharge to 20 seconds.
• Jump Shot, reduce the casting time to 3/4th of a second and remove the vulnerability application.
• Slick Shoes, reduce the recharge to 30 seconds, reduce knockdown to 1 second. Kinda copied right from Shocking Aura, each attacker can be affected by this only once every 1 second vs. 2 from Shock Aura.
• Transmute, move to Grandmaster minor trait, Energy Conversion Matrix move to Master minor trait. Sorry engineers, if you want free condition removal every 15 seconds you need to put more into it.

I do not mind Engineers dealing super high damage, I do mind them dealing high damage, a block every 16 seconds and plenty of condition spam. You can have one or the other, but not all.

---

As for Elementalist, to much burning, so much burning.
Reduce the amount of burning with Drakes Breath, Ring of Fire and Burning Speed.
Our sustain won’t be as horrible when we can’t just spam burning on a bunch of people. Force Ele’s to take a more offensive approach with skills/traits, surviving isn’t the elementalists problem, it’s surviving AND killing.

• Drake Breath, reduce burning from 3 to 2, obvious reasons, even with just 3 ticks, 9 seconds of burning is just broken AND can easily land on multiple people.
• Ring of Fire, reduce the burning from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Not that big of an issue but in the chaos of a team fight, 5 seconds on 4 people can be a serious issue.
• Burning Speed, reduce the blast radius to 180, the blast is to big for it’s own good. Aim and timing would do the skill justice.
• Cleansing Water, enough with the powerful condition removal. How about this, “Cleansing Water – Soothing Mist passive regeneration is twice as effective. When Soothing Mist ends on an ally, it slightly heals and removes a condition.” There, you can no longer spike off conditions and serves as a passive regeneration plus passive condition removal. For those that don’t math, even if Soothing Mist healing is twice as good it still doesn’t match Virtue of Resolve, even with an uncontrolled condition removal, it still wouldn’t be worth it, so a small heal on the end would be a must to call this a grandmaster trait.

Oh, here is the big one.
DRUM ROLL PLEASE!!
.
.
.
.
.
Sigil of Doom! Reduce the poison to 3 seconds, down from 6! The healing reduction from poison turns bunkers into super bunkers, this should have been nerfed last balance patch.

As always, your suggestions and posts truly delight me.

It was fun popping your poorly built Ele last night, with my Rifle & Slick Shoes Engineer. I don’t suppose that’s a coincidence that you propose to nerf every Rifle skill right after. Lmao.

Rifle and Slick Shoes are avoidable. Pro tip, it helps to bring things like stability and stun breaks when you fight a Rifle Engi. And no, using Arcane Shield randomly does not constitute as stunbreaking a key ability.

Also, just because you like to use Aura Share and try to 1v1, instead of using the condition removal GM trait, that doesn’t mean actual Eles can do that. It would severely displace Eles from the highly competitive level it is at now.

See: Phantas thread on how to intelligently shave Eles.

This professions has to be on the same page as others…

To me is a joke when a people call ranger OP when this two profession exist.

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Gear Block needs to get nerfed. There is no reason why it is better than a Warriors shield block. Either change how the skill functions or increase the recharge.

That doesn’t seem very rational to me. A profession that has no weapon swap, and must use a utility skill to gain access to a skill, should have their nerfed to that of a warrior who only has to utilize a OH weapon slot?

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Incendiary Powder also needs to get nerfed, you already have good access to bleeding and confusion, even better than Mesmers. Hell, I’m sure there is plenty of Necromancers cursing engineers because they kept their burning ability.

I agree, I hate the over the top passive skills. The problem I have, is that spoiled warriors, defend their over the top passive of healing signet, then cry fowl about IP.

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Reduce the immobilize duration of Net Shot to 1 second but reduce the after cast, allowing the engineer to react faster but in contrast, allows the target to recover faster, more risk/reward.

Why does a target deserve to recover faster? How does this offer greater risk/reward? All that offers is greater risk. Where does cutting a skills effect in half, offer more reward? Beyond rewarding the weak players who are hit by the attack I mean?

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Blunderbuss, reduce the recharge to 8 seconds, remove the bleeding.

Why? if all your doing is lowering the cool down to increase the direct damage of the skill in the long run, simply to remove the condition application. WHy remove the bleeds? You have a lot of suggestions that I see no sense in, yet you offer no explanations.

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Overcharged Shot, increase the recharge to 20 seconds.

Why?

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Jump Shot, reduce the casting time to 3/4th of a second and remove the vulnerability application.

What justification do you have to nerf this skill too? I mean you literally call for a completely irrational nerf to every single skill, except the auto attack? Once it is clear, after seeing you list a nerf for every skill on the weapon, that you do not want balance, you want revenge

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Slick Shoes, reduce the recharge to 30 seconds, reduce knockdown to 1 second. Kinda copied right from Shocking Aura, each attacker can be affected by this only once every 1 second vs. 2 from Shock Aura.

What does another profession MH weapon skill have to do with an entirely different professions utility skill. You really believe that utility skills, should be balanced based on weapon skills? That makes about as much sense as putting ejection seats in helicopters.

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Transmute, move to Grandmaster minor trait, Energy Conversion Matrix move to Master minor trait. Sorry engineers, if you want free condition removal every 15 seconds you need to put more into it.

Why? Engineers get one every 15s, yet so many other professions get 1 every 10s. Besides that. You make it clear your intention is not to offer reasonable balance. You said “engineers” and not “we” or anything tht indicated you as a knowledgeable player of the profession. Then you went on to say “you need to put more into it”, again demonstrating that you segregate yourself from the profession. Clearly you are not approaching this from a position of offering balance based on your experience, but from spite.

Nova Stiker.8396:

I do not mind Engineers dealing super high damage, I do mind them dealing high damage, a block every 16 seconds and plenty of condition spam. You can have one or the other, but not all.

What condition spam do you have from the rifle? What condition spam do you have from transmute, slick shoes, tool kit? You crying for nerfs on skills that having nothing to do with damage or blocks.

Yet you avoid mentioning FT/EG/BK/GK.

So, if your such an expert on the engineer, how many hours do you have on the professions (I bet dollars to donuts we if the poster replies on this thread, that he ignores this question, because he is demanding changes for a profession he knows little about)

It is a shame, when a player is caught in the act of vocalizing demands to nerf a profession based on revenge. It makes you wonder how many discussions started that ended with tweaks or changes, based on spite, jealousy, and vengeance, instead of experience, honest desire for balance, and reason.

coglin.1867:

The problem I see with posters/players such as the OP, is that they fail to realize that a profession is not the problem, but possibly certain builds.

What build, specifically, on those professions is troubling you OP?

If sPvP is concern they probably only run into a few (I’d says no more than 3 build at most /profession), so if all you ever see meta whatever it will color the opinion for that person for the entire profession. It doesn’t justify it, but it does make for interesting problem for balance.

dancingmonkey.4902:

It is a shame, when a player is caught in the act of vocalizing demands to nerf a profession based on revenge. It makes you wonder how many discussions started that ended with tweaks or changes, based on spite, jealousy, and vengeance, instead of experience, honest desire for balance, and reason.

Unfortunately that becoming part of the culture of online gaming and perhaps a sign that the “win at all cost” camp is going to destroy the “play” aspect of the game. It is sad, but I would guess most competitive players detest losing and play in fact for the not for the thrill of competition, but for the domination of victory over the other team/player(s).

Chaith.8256:

Also, just because you like to use Aura Share and try to 1v1, instead of using the condition removal GM trait, that doesn’t mean actual Eles can do that.

QFT.
Moving on! We all want our special snowflake builds to be good. But they are not.
I do not know what NovaStiker runs in PvP but it doesn’t seem that good.

Especially since he runs d/d cele in dungeons! And considers engineers(3rd dps from top or so) “condi spamgineers or a gimmick spike with a long cooldown”. What does this tell us? Serious lack of comprehension regarding both the main class but also other classes!
It’s hilarious when you think of it.

To quote a popular book: “Blessed are the casuals, for they will inherit the earth.”

Edit: Confused OP with Nova. Sorry OP!

robertul.3679:

Chaith.8256:

Also, just because you like to use Aura Share and try to 1v1, instead of using the condition removal GM trait, that doesn’t mean actual Eles can do that.

QFT.
Moving on! We all want our special snowflake builds to be good. But they are not.
I do not know what OP runs in PvP but it doesn’t seem that good.

Especially since he runs d/d cele in dungeons! And considers engineers(3rd dps from top or so) “condi spamgineers or a gimmick spike with a long cooldown”. What does this tell us? Serious lack of comprehension regarding both the main class but also other classes!
It’s hilarious when you think of it.

To quote a popular book: “Blessed are the casuals, for they will inherit the earth.”

“Spamgineer” is definitely a Nova Stiker trademarked word. Haha. He’s not the OP, though. He just wants to have everyone’s build revenge nerfed who crosses his path, and goes out of their way to keep him on respawn all game. (Oops!) Take his posts with a grain of salt though. He’s long since given up on gaining knowledge of the game, and instead just puts rage/revenge emotions in that gap, and writes from there.

Sorel.4870:

Simon.3794:

robertul.3679:

What class are you struggling on to fight against the dreadful 66666 engi with turret rabid celestial battle doom geomancy intelligence bomb nade toolkit slickshoes elixir gun?

but almost every engi build has " spam/CC/AI "

Riiiiight. Every engineer build has CC (that’s what the profession is best at imo), but if you play kits (“spam”), you can’t play turrets (“AI”). So no, you ran into two different engineer builds and thought it was the same. I suggest you play one.

You miss crate.

i really do not understand how it was over powered for necro to have dhuumfire but its perfectly fine for engies to have basically the same thing and its not even grand master….

unlucky.9285:

i really do not understand how it was over powered for necro to have dhuumfire but its perfectly fine for engies to have basically the same thing and its not even grand master….

You don’t understand, mostly because cross-profession-direct-comparisons without the context of.. the rest of the profession, are impossible to understand. You won’t necessarily see many similarities between even similar mechanics.

Burning, Bleeding, Confusion, these are strong, but..

Burning, Bleeding, Terror, Torment was a little cray cray all at the same time. People were melting in 4 seconds..

Bran.7425:

If sPvP is concern they probably only run into a few (I’d says no more than 3 build at most /profession), so if all you ever see meta whatever it will color the opinion for that person for the entire profession. It doesn’t justify it, but it does make for interesting problem for balance.

If all they ever see is sPvP, then that’s their problem right there. Devs have to keep the entire game in mind, and classes will be based upon that.

OP’s frustration level: 73

Chaith.8256:

As always, your suggestions and posts truly delight me.

It was fun popping your poorly built Ele last night, with my Rifle & Slick Shoes Engineer. I don’t suppose that’s a coincidence that you propose to nerf every Rifle skill right after. Lmao.

Rifle and Slick Shoes are avoidable. Pro tip, it helps to bring things like stability and stun breaks when you fight a Rifle Engi. And no, using Arcane Shield randomly does not constitute as stunbreaking a key ability.

Also, just because you like to use Aura Share and try to 1v1, instead of using the condition removal GM trait, that doesn’t mean actual Eles can do that. It would severely displace Eles from the highly competitive level it is at now.

See: Phantas thread on how to intelligently shave Eles.

lol, so I played your spamgineer build last night, I take it all back, it doesn’t need any skill, it’s the engineers equivalent to the zerker warrior, Bulls Charge, Frenzy, Hundred Blades. Although landing Net Shot was a chore, is it suppose to be a slower projectile or I think I was lagging.
Still though, I face rolled mediguards, any necromancer that left Deathshroud, zerker rangers and Mesmers that think they can hide with Decoy.

I would say it’s easiness is like Hambow but I literally just hoped onto my Engineer and started wrecking face.
Once again, engineer is the most skill-less class in the game.

Although there were plenty of other builds that just wrecked this setup, I just easily kite forever, Gear Shield iz proz

Protip: Don’t think you’re good when what you are playing is easier to master than the hambow.

You should be thanking me, trying to turn the engineer to be just as powerful with more risk/reward instead of just toning down everything like ArenaNet will most likely too.

Well, except Gear Shield broken recharge, Transmutes powerful passive that is easily traited into and Incinerate Powder. You have a Flamethrower, learn how to get a fire aura if you want burn spam.
(A side note, that Demise fellow challenged me to a 1v1, although I couldn’t kill him because 3 Cantips but he couldn’t kill me either, missed every Fire Grab and Earthquake, he needed 3 Cantips to make up for missing everything. I also landed a churning earth, almost won there until he blew all utilities. Spamming those dodge rolls I knew he had no choice but to eat it. He mains an ele, better on condi warrior. LOL)

Inferior? Yeah, technically if I want to survive more. If I want my team to survive more, well then, I can easily sacrifice my defense to help.

I’ve read Phantarams post and… talking about increasing the usefulness of some abilities on scepter, focus and staff.
I agree with everything he says? Except I’d personally reduce the CC duration of the staff BUT reduce the recharge. Too much risk to and not enough reward.
Other than that I couldn’t find anything regarding nerfing elementalists.

Your suggestions to posts truly delight me.

There is nothing wrong with surviving, spec’ing fully into defenses (minus the time when bunker guards could withstand a 5v1) the problem is surviving AND dealing damage.
Right now just 1 tick of Drakes Breath can deal 2,100 raw burning damage with celestial and 20+ stacks of might. That is just 1 tick! That is not including when it can hit 2-3 times easily or the power that comes from it.

Burning Speed blast radius is way too big and Ring of Fire can easily tick 3000+ damage of burning on multiple people in the chaos of a team fight.

Reducing the amount of burning just a little would go a massive way. You’ll see a big difference when Drakes Breath dealing 33% less damage and Burning Speed can be avoided without the need to dodge.

In my opinion, the best way to deal with Celestial Elementalists and Engineers is to force them to go more offensive if they want to kill anything.

Want to know the best nerf for Engineers? Kits have cooldown swaps. GG.

Ultimately, the best route for balance to flat out changing a lot of skill functionality or complete redesign for engineer and elementalist.
2 years and half the classes clearly need rework.

I have difficulty caring what you played if you clearly did it only to talk trash. Particularly since it is likely you were in soloq. As well, you offer no evidence of your play and/or success, or lack thereof.

Have any evidence that you won with reasonable teams or are you simply here to be salty?

coglin.1867:

simply here to be salty?

Nerf Ele

this sounds familiar … I must be running in circles

Carighan.6758:

If all they ever see is sPvP, then that’s their problem right there. Devs have to keep the entire game in mind, and classes will be based upon that.

I truly wish that was the case, but it seem to me that their balance focus is squarely centered in sPvP.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Chaith.8256:

As always, your suggestions and posts truly delight me.

It was fun popping your poorly built Ele last night, with my Rifle & Slick Shoes Engineer. I don’t suppose that’s a coincidence that you propose to nerf every Rifle skill right after. Lmao.

Rifle and Slick Shoes are avoidable. Pro tip, it helps to bring things like stability and stun breaks when you fight a Rifle Engi. And no, using Arcane Shield randomly does not constitute as stunbreaking a key ability.

Also, just because you like to use Aura Share and try to 1v1, instead of using the condition removal GM trait, that doesn’t mean actual Eles can do that. It would severely displace Eles from the highly competitive level it is at now.

See: Phantas thread on how to intelligently shave Eles.

lol, so I played your spamgineer build last night, I take it all back, it doesn’t need any skill, it’s the engineers equivalent to the zerker warrior, Bulls Charge, Frenzy, Hundred Blades. Although landing Net Shot was a chore, is it suppose to be a slower projectile or I think I was lagging.
Still though, I face rolled mediguards, any necromancer that left Deathshroud, zerker rangers and Mesmers that think they can hide with Decoy.

I would say it’s easiness is like Hambow but I literally just hoped onto my Engineer and started wrecking face.
Once again, engineer is the most skill-less class in the game.

Although there were plenty of other builds that just wrecked this setup, I just easily kite forever, Gear Shield iz proz

---

Protip: Don’t think you’re good when what you are playing is easier to master than the hambow.

You should be thanking me, trying to turn the engineer to be just as powerful with more risk/reward instead of just toning down everything like ArenaNet will most likely too.

Well, except Gear Shield broken recharge, Transmutes powerful passive that is easily traited into and Incinerate Powder. You have a Flamethrower, learn how to get a fire aura if you want burn spam.
(A side note, that Demise fellow challenged me to a 1v1, although I couldn’t kill him because 3 Cantips but he couldn’t kill me either, missed every Fire Grab and Earthquake, he needed 3 Cantips to make up for missing everything. I also landed a churning earth, almost won there until he blew all utilities. Spamming those dodge rolls I knew he had no choice but to eat it. He mains an ele, better on condi warrior. LOL)

Inferior? Yeah, technically if I want to survive more. If I want my team to survive more, well then, I can easily sacrifice my defense to help.

---

I’ve read Phantarams post and… talking about increasing the usefulness of some abilities on scepter, focus and staff.
I agree with everything he says? Except I’d personally reduce the CC duration of the staff BUT reduce the recharge. Too much risk to and not enough reward.
Other than that I couldn’t find anything regarding nerfing elementalists.

Your suggestions to posts truly delight me.

There is nothing wrong with surviving, spec’ing fully into defenses (minus the time when bunker guards could withstand a 5v1) the problem is surviving AND dealing damage.
Right now just 1 tick of Drakes Breath can deal 2,100 raw burning damage with celestial and 20+ stacks of might. That is just 1 tick! That is not including when it can hit 2-3 times easily or the power that comes from it.

Burning Speed blast radius is way too big and Ring of Fire can easily tick 3000+ damage of burning on multiple people in the chaos of a team fight.

Reducing the amount of burning just a little would go a massive way. You’ll see a big difference when Drakes Breath dealing 33% less damage and Burning Speed can be avoided without the need to dodge.

In my opinion, the best way to deal with Celestial Elementalists and Engineers is to force them to go more offensive if they want to kill anything.

Want to know the best nerf for Engineers? Kits have cooldown swaps. GG.

---

Ultimately, the best route for balance to flat out changing a lot of skill functionality or complete redesign for engineer and elementalist.
2 years and half the classes clearly need rework.

So
Soooo
Salty.
Like this is bad for your health salty

Solori.6025:

So
Soooo
Salty.
Like this is bad for your health salty

Attempting to read his rambling, it’s like:

• One part of un-originally tossing back the exact same jabs. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJM5AOdnhzs

• One part of arbitrary as fak / meaningless suggestions that would suit nothing, except his whims for how the classes should be.

• One part furiously attacking whatever build the last player who killed him in Hotjoin was.

• One part trying to rebuild the illusion of being a knowledgeable player, which is shattered into about 2,000,000 pieces. If only salt could be used as an adhesive…

Nova Stiker.8396:

Reducing the amount of burning just a little would go a massive way. You’ll see a big difference when Drakes Breath dealing 33% less damage and Burning Speed can be avoided without the need to dodge.

I think it’s clear what he wants here.

We can all go home now.

Engi is decent where it is, depending on the skill of the ele and the build you’re using, it can be impossible to beat one.

I just had a radical thought:
What if…
listen!
What if no class is OP per default?
What if there are really skilled players out there that dominate you from time to time if they figure out how you tick?
What if the builds they’re using are available for everybody to look into and spec against?
What if there is nothing magical about winning a match but to hold to your team and don’t engage in uneven situations in favor of your opponents?
What if all that needs to be fixed are the classes’ long bug-lists?
What if the balancing is actually totally fine?

Arantheal.7396:

I just had a radical thought:
What if…
listen!
What if no class is OP per default?
What if there are really skilled players out there that dominate you from time to time if they figure out how you tick?
What if the builds they’re using are available for everybody to look into and spec against?
What if there is nothing magical about winning a match but to hold to your team and don’t engage in uneven situations in favor of your opponents?
What if all that needs to be fixed are the classes’ long bug-lists?
What if the balancing is actually totally fine?

Unfortunately, that is a reality we don’t live in. Just like every patch before, something is strong, other things are weak. Ele and engy are both strong, and it is likely thanks to the buffs to runes in general, strength and balthazar in particular. How to “balance” it is a question that anet gets to answer, but there will likely be reductions to prevent power creep (which is what many suggest in buffing other classes to bring them up to par).

My suggestions for reduction are first examining their runes and sigils. One or more of these sigils three is almost always used for both classes: Energy, Might, and Doom.

Energy gives an extra dodge on weapon swap, a powerful defensive boon but not much more powerful than most. Still, vigor on swap could be an option. Necessary? Probably not. It would hurt a lot of classes survivability, especially those with limited defensive mechanics (necro).

Battle gives 3 stacks of might for 20 seconds. Not too strong, until you add in the +45% might duration from runes and up 30% from traits. Means 3 stacks for 35 seconds, on a nine second cooldown, by itself maintaining 9-12 stacks. Reducing the sigil swap to give ten seconds would translate to only 6 stacks, which might be acceptable, depending on how much influence sigils should play in pvp. A more even approach could be 15 seconds, translating to 6-9 stacks of might from the one sigil.

Doom is both popular and powerful, as it gives access to a somewhat rare condition, poison. By default, 6 seconds on a 9 second cooldown. With condition duration, 7.8 seconds, though most that use it don’t go that far into condition duration. Still, the sigil keeps 67% uptime on poison. Nothing to sneeze at, surely. Reducing it to 4 seconds would still give 4 ticks and let the swap effect be used to counter heals, but would keep it from being another free condition.

Runes of strength being brought down to be similar to other runes that grant boon duration would be a way to reduce their effectiveness (30% duration instead of 45%) It wouldn’t be a huge change on its own (it would remove 3 seconds off current sigil of might), but at least we wouldn’t have quite as much might running around. Balth runes could receive similar treatment and still be extremely useful. Currently, they give 45% bonus duration on burning, 75% after trait points. With just ICP on an engineer, that’s 7 seconds of burning every 10.

Celestial amulet may also be a problem. It has 3066 stat points, 37% more than any other amulet. While I don’t think that it needs to be restricted to have the same amount of points as each, it currently gives 2/3rds the lower amount in every stat. A lower fraction, possibly 5/8ths could be used. That would bring each stat down to 406 from 438, still giving 2843 points.

I would like shaves applied to runes and sigils before messing with traits or skills, as just those few changes could bring the strong down enough to not need heavy rebalance, with one exception.

I would love if ICP was activated on toolbelt skill. Something like a ten second cooldown that grants a short buff that makes your next attack cause burning (doing it on crit still could be done, but it would change very little). Few enough traits interact with toolbelt in any meaningful way (only one I can think of is SD), and it would be nice to have a controlled burn, rather than one at random intervals. Actually, knowing how those skills are usually used, it might still be almost at random, but it would be somewhat predictable.

Creld done.

Sorry creld, but the sigils and runes are very much balanced.
Yes, Balthazar grants +45% burning duration, but looking into most other damaging conditions, all of them have their representatives with the same bonus amount
burning – balthazar – 45%
poison – orr – 30%
bleeding – krait – 45%
all 3 of them have a 10 – 30 sec proc of their respective condition as well, and while balthazar has the shortest proc on its t6 effect, it also has the least useful one on its t3 effect.
If we look into runes of strength its the same.
They may have the highest amount of boon duration for a single boon, but they don’t have any offensive or defensive proc.

In terms of general gameplay it is not an issue for a thief to steal the might, a nexro to corrupt it, or mesmer / guardian / engineer to strip it.

About ICP:
it was already nerfed once by making it not so easily accessible anymore. (got moved from adept to master). Its base-duration is only 4 seconds, but since it got moved up, you have to spend at least 4 into explosives, which is also our condi-duration line, so it’s on a natural 4.8sec base duration. So that are still only 4 procs burning at its base.
going below that would render the trait useless.
And we already have a burning proc on our toolbelt, which grants the next 3 hits to apply 3 seconds burning (9s in total) on a 60sec cd, if we pack flamethrower, which would cancel out either sloting a stunbreaker, toolkit or nades/bombs instead.
the last option would be to go p/p which would cost us a huge load of defensive options.
Yes, with runes of balthazar engi can maintain perma-burning just from its proc and ICP, but on the same time these are the only sources of burning meta-builds usually pack, so one cleanse renders 10 procs in a row useless.

Conditions are part of the game, so if you choose to run builds that do not cleanse them, than you’ve naturally chosen the weaker build, which was your own decision in the first place.

I personally have seen all kinds of meta-builds and I’ve never had a real issue with them.
Yes they are effective, since they try to get the most rewarding effects out of a class’ mechanics and synergy. This is why these builds are called meta.
To counter that, come up with a more effective build or copy them from metabattle.com
Everyone can view them, everyone can run them. And if you find them dull or not fun to play, you have 2 options:
- learn to like them (the game is not crafted around your personal preferences)
- come up with your own, maybe more effective builds.
All meta-builds were just a dumb idea from a random guy in the beginning, which turned out to have some awesome synergy with the class. If you find similar builds on your own, congratz.
if not: stop complaining.

And about “but you don’t see classes a,b,c in pro teams”. That one is a matter of team-compilation, therefore the decision of the team to run the classes that support each other the most.
And if I look into ESL streams, I can not see engis or eles dominating the field since they get dropped often enough by other classes as well.
So even looking on the top of the skill-ceiling does not reveal anything that one could call OP. else top-teams would consist of NOTHING BUT engis and eles. You see them around often, but certainly not dominating the game.

There is a reason why IP is not getting nerfed ever again:

- That was a trait supposed to make up for the big nerf on #1 pistol.

Plain and simple, if they nerf IP, they need to buff pistol #1, which eventualy would lead to more complain about A-pistol.

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Gear Block needs to get nerfed. There is no reason why it is better than a Warriors shield block. Either change how the skill functions or increase the recharge.
• Incendiary Powder also needs to get nerfed, you already have good access to bleeding and confusion, even better than Mesmers. Hell, I’m sure there is plenty of Necromancers cursing engineers because they kept their burning ability.
• Reduce the immobilize duration of Net Shot to 1 second but reduce the after cast, allowing the engineer to react faster but in contrast, allows the target to recover faster, more risk/reward.
• Blunderbuss, reduce the recharge to 8 seconds, remove the bleeding.
• Overcharged Shot, increase the recharge to 20 seconds.
• Jump Shot, reduce the casting time to 3/4th of a second and remove the vulnerability application.
• Slick Shoes, reduce the recharge to 30 seconds, reduce knockdown to 1 second. Kinda copied right from Shocking Aura, each attacker can be affected by this only once every 1 second vs. 2 from Shock Aura.
• Transmute, move to Grandmaster minor trait, Energy Conversion Matrix move to Master minor trait. Sorry engineers, if you want free condition removal every 15 seconds you need to put more into it.

I do not mind Engineers dealing super high damage, I do mind them dealing high damage, a block every 16 seconds and plenty of condition spam. You can have one or the other, but not all.

---

As for Elementalist, to much burning, so much burning.
Reduce the amount of burning with Drakes Breath, Ring of Fire and Burning Speed.
Our sustain won’t be as horrible when we can’t just spam burning on a bunch of people. Force Ele’s to take a more offensive approach with skills/traits, surviving isn’t the elementalists problem, it’s surviving AND killing.

• Drake Breath, reduce burning from 3 to 2, obvious reasons, even with just 3 ticks, 9 seconds of burning is just broken AND can easily land on multiple people.
• Ring of Fire, reduce the burning from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Not that big of an issue but in the chaos of a team fight, 5 seconds on 4 people can be a serious issue.
• Burning Speed, reduce the blast radius to 180, the blast is to big for it’s own good. Aim and timing would do the skill justice.
• Cleansing Water, enough with the powerful condition removal. How about this, “Cleansing Water – Soothing Mist passive regeneration is twice as effective. When Soothing Mist ends on an ally, it slightly heals and removes a condition.” There, you can no longer spike off conditions and serves as a passive regeneration plus passive condition removal. For those that don’t math, even if Soothing Mist healing is twice as good it still doesn’t match Virtue of Resolve, even with an uncontrolled condition removal, it still wouldn’t be worth it, so a small heal on the end would be a must to call this a grandmaster trait.

Oh, here is the big one.
DRUM ROLL PLEASE!!
.
.
.
.
.
Sigil of Doom! Reduce the poison to 3 seconds, down from 6! The healing reduction from poison turns bunkers into super bunkers, this should have been nerfed last balance patch.

So basically nerf everything so that you can win, guess not

Vajra.3914:

There is a reason why IP is not getting nerfed ever again:

- That was a trait supposed to make up for the big nerf on #1 pistol.

Plain and simple, if they nerf IP, they need to buff pistol #1, which eventualy would lead to more complain about A-pistol.

then make it only work while wielding a pistol…… it will still make up for the pistol nerf when you are using a pistol but it wont work with kits or rifle fair is fair

unlucky.9285:

Vajra.3914:

There is a reason why IP is not getting nerfed ever again:

- That was a trait supposed to make up for the big nerf on #1 pistol.

Plain and simple, if they nerf IP, they need to buff pistol #1, which eventualy would lead to more complain about A-pistol.

then make it only work while wielding a pistol…… it will still make up for the pistol nerf when you are using a pistol but it wont work with kits or rifle fair is fair

#1:
Yes, Pistol got nerfed pre launch so it will only apply bleed on directly hit targets, not on everybody within the impact-aoe-range.

#2:
IP got nerfed twice to be correct:
nerf 1:
Increased burning duration from 2 seconds to 4 seconds.
Increased internal cooldown from 3 seconds to 10 seconds.
Increased activation chance from 33% to 100%.
nerf 2:
moved from adept to master

#3: Pistol AA and IP were never directly related and all listed nerfs happened unrelated to each other.

No IP, was never meant to make up for Pistol AA’s nerf, else it would’ve been buffed, not nerfed.
No, IP is not overpowered, as already explained a few posts above.
Yes, engineer is meant to be a luck and rng-based class, so we naturally rely that heavily on crit-procs (even tho a good chunk of elixir-related rng got taken out recently).
This is what makes the class unique:
Hard to be predicted, both for the player and his opponents.

And you don’t die to IP usually, you die to the cc-lock, the bursts (Blunderbus /jumpshot / prybar / acid bomb / grenade-barage / a.s.o.), and last, but not least: the crate.
The only reason why you curse about IP so often is because it’s usually the last condition (along with poison) that will stick on you if you disengage from a engi and try to reset, in dire need of a finished cd on your condi-clear.
Ofc you will not notice the 12 stacks of confusion a engi just has put on you since you already spammed yourself into downstate, or the ~15 stacks of bleed that ticked nicely in the background while you were busy to jump around a nadestorm, hoping to dodge the chill-ones…

IP is just one of our many awesome mechanics, but not by far anything that solely carries the engi in PvP.

Want to nerf something meaningful?
The ability of scrubs to whisper and abuse those who simply outplayed them.
I’m done with this thread.

Arantheal.7396:

unlucky.9285:

Vajra.3914:

There is a reason why IP is not getting nerfed ever again:

- That was a trait supposed to make up for the big nerf on #1 pistol.

Plain and simple, if they nerf IP, they need to buff pistol #1, which eventualy would lead to more complain about A-pistol.

then make it only work while wielding a pistol…… it will still make up for the pistol nerf when you are using a pistol but it wont work with kits or rifle fair is fair

#1:
Yes, Pistol got nerfed pre launch so it will only apply bleed on directly hit targets, not on everybody within the impact-aoe-range.

#2:
IP got nerfed twice to be correct:
nerf 1:
Increased burning duration from 2 seconds to 4 seconds.
Increased internal cooldown from 3 seconds to 10 seconds.
Increased activation chance from 33% to 100%.
nerf 2:
moved from adept to master

#3: Pistol AA and IP were never directly related and all listed nerfs happened unrelated to each other.

No IP, was never meant to make up for Pistol AA’s nerf, else it would’ve been buffed, not nerfed.
No, IP is not overpowered, as already explained a few posts above.
Yes, engineer is meant to be a luck and rng-based class, so we naturally rely that heavily on crit-procs (even tho a good chunk of elixir-related rng got taken out recently).
This is what makes the class unique:
Hard to be predicted, both for the player and his opponents.

And you don’t die to IP usually, you die to the cc-lock, the bursts (Blunderbus /jumpshot / prybar / acid bomb / grenade-barage / a.s.o.), and last, but not least: the crate.
The only reason why you curse about IP so often is because it’s usually the last condition (along with poison) that will stick on you if you disengage from a engi and try to reset, in dire need of a finished cd on your condi-clear.
Ofc you will not notice the 12 stacks of confusion a engi just has put on you since you already spammed yourself into downstate, or the ~15 stacks of bleed that ticked nicely in the background while you were busy to jump around a nadestorm, hoping to dodge the chill-ones…

IP is just one of our many awesome mechanics, but not by far anything that solely carries the engi in PvP.

Want to nerf something meaningful?
The ability of scrubs to whisper and abuse those who simply outplayed them.
I’m done with this thread.

if it is as meaningless as you make it out to be then you will not mind it being removed right? all the other things you have mentioned can be dodged or blocked ip will get you no matter what you do and it will do so over and over and over and over no matter what kit or weapon you are using.

Sigil of Doom definitely needs to be lowered. Single target or not, constant poison will end up causing many deaths just because of a sigil alone, and there is no balance in that.

The issue with Engis is that they can spam condis with little to no real effort along w the ridiculous amount of Cc. You do not need to spec in turrets to hand turret drop elite which puts almost every turret down at once. Net still nets, burn still burns regardless if they are specced or not. If their main source of power is positioning and cc then make it so, treat their pistol similar to ranger SB in the sense that they need to flank in order to optimize. Right now there is little effort needed to run engi. I literally grabbed a meta build and wrecked havoc for hours in pvp with only pve knowledge of the class..

IP is broken, I would love to see Engineer’s run without it…… GL with that seen as it does 50% of your damage some times more.

Ele’s well there heal/condition remove is just stupid, why give them insane amounts aren’t they meant to be jack of all trade’s not the best…… GJ Anet make a class they wrecked the game early OP again……

unlucky.9285:

if it is as meaningless as you make it out to be then you will not mind it being removed right? all the other things you have mentioned can be dodged or blocked ip will get you no matter what you do and it will do so over and over and over and over no matter what kit or weapon you are using.

wrong.
IP only procs every 10 sec, so clear it and live happily without it for the next 10sec.
Additionally, it will only proc on crits.
How to make crits impossible?
weakness, blind, block, aegis, dodge.
Additionally, a disabled player can’t crit, so kick / stun / knock us around, since we have no stability, unless we transmute fear (on meta-builds that is)
If you build packs none of those, you’re not suited for PvP anyways.

Why has it to stay?
Because we refuse to get the engi nerfed again, just because a minority can’t cope with the meta.

So here is what you did:
You were running a non-meta build, suited for high bursts so you can “one-shot” people, or so much survivability that you were literally camping alone on a node. But in order to get your precious high numbers / extreme sustain, you left out a huge chunk of all defensive/offensive mechanics your class offers.
Then you met a humble engi or ele who exploited exactly this short-sighted build, by eating up its burst / baiting its defense, and overloading it with condis / cc’s right after.
Because you got sled repeatedly by this player, and others with a brain, you had to come here and open a QQ thread.

So far you have presented no numbers or facts that would support your point while disregarding every other argument.

You don’t even QQ for nerfs anymore, you simply cry in vain.
And the only reason why people are still talking to you (and others), is because a-net tends to listen to whining.
I have no idea which class you play, and honestly, I don’t care. But one day, some kid will be sled by you, come to this forum and whine loud enough to ruin the game for everybody else.
And still this kid will continue to be sled after he pushed trough his nerf, since he wasted his time on whining, instead of actually playing gw2 and improving his skills in the current environment
This is what this thread currently does.
GG

Just a short reminder:
you can run the meta as well.
Don’t like it?
Goto hotjoin or unranked team-Q and enjoy slaying people there, since most of them will also not run the meta.
There is absolutely no shame in doing so.

Want to improve on your class and personal skills, while also getting ESL-ready?
Run the meta, get a couple of guildies who love it as well and rock ranked team-Q.
Git gud, or get out.

Shrapnel.7249:

The issue with Engis is that they can spam condis with little to no real effort

Have any evidence you can provide on that. When you look at the condition damage out put capabilities in the threads on this topic, the engineer is not even in the top two in condition damage out put potential. So did you actually test the damage out puts or are you simply regurgitating buzzwords?

Define “no real effort” for applying damage? You mean like warrior or guardian hammer spam’s level of effort? Rangers RF level of effort? Or like the difficulty of applying damage from stealth like a thief? There isn’t a single profession in this game that takes more or less effort to apply its attacks, CC, or conditions. The fact that you disingenuously go out of your way to make such misrepresenting statements is a shows you don’t even have faith in the strength of your own argument.

Shrapnel.7249:

You do not need to spec in turrets to hand turret drop elite which puts almost every turret down at once.

Thank you for making statements like this one. I appreciate the evidence that you are making a complaint, without actually knowing what is going on.

Shrapnel.7249:

Net still nets, burn still burns regardless if they are specced or not.

So your suggesting that other professions cannot apply burns without specing into conditions? That doesn’t seem like a very honest thing to say, if you ask me.

Shrapnel.7249:

If their main source of power is positioning and cc then make it so, treat their pistol similar to ranger SB in the sense that they need to flank in order to optimize.

Where are you coming up with this theory about power and positioning? Are you simply making an uninformed assumption and claiming it is a balancing philosophy?

Shrapnel.7249:

Right now there is little effort needed to run engi. I literally grabbed a meta build and wrecked havoc for hours in pvp with only pve knowledge of the class..

I believe you are being dishonest. Your incorrect statements on facts of the profession in this thread alone offer evidence to that. The fact that you do not even list the build is further evidence. The fact that it takes so little effort to record a little footage, and you claim you “wrecked for hours” and posted no footage, adds further to support a lack of believe ability.

Shrapnel.7249:

The issue with Engis is that they can spam condis with little to no real effort along w the ridiculous amount of Cc. You do not need to spec in turrets to hand turret drop elite which puts almost every turret down at once. Net still nets, burn still burns regardless if they are specced or not. If their main source of power is positioning and cc then make it so, treat their pistol similar to ranger SB in the sense that they need to flank in order to optimize. Right now there is little effort needed to run engi. I literally grabbed a meta build and wrecked havoc for hours in pvp with only pve knowledge of the class..

You mean like a soldier hambow can immobilize with pindown, whatever hammer 3 is called and burn with longbow 2 and f1? They aren’t really specced into condition either.
Also nobody is using pistol auto to stack bleeds since it’s so bad it’s not even funny. At best you use it on running targets you can’t hit reliably with grenades.

robertul.3679:

Shrapnel.7249:

The issue with Engis is that they can spam condis with little to no real effort along w the ridiculous amount of Cc. You do not need to spec in turrets to hand turret drop elite which puts almost every turret down at once. Net still nets, burn still burns regardless if they are specced or not. If their main source of power is positioning and cc then make it so, treat their pistol similar to ranger SB in the sense that they need to flank in order to optimize. Right now there is little effort needed to run engi. I literally grabbed a meta build and wrecked havoc for hours in pvp with only pve knowledge of the class..

You mean like a soldier hambow can immobilize with pindown, whatever hammer 3 is called and burn with longbow 2 and f1? They aren’t really specced into condition either.
Also nobody is using pistol auto to stack bleeds since it’s so bad it’s not even funny. At best you use it on running targets you can’t hit reliably with grenades.

Much the same way that ham bow is a pick up build that has reached meta status, so has the condi engi. And exactly the point that makes it meta is what all the engis in the forum get angry about (much to my delight!) that it easy a build ANYONE can pick up and use w minimal effort. At least Ham/Bow is destroyed by any sort of blind output or proper dodges. Of course those who benefit from the current state of it are gonna defend it like everybody else’s opinion is void. But I suppose that is the nature of such forums.

So, now we see teams with TWO engi and TWO eles in toppest tier tournament and right here we can read all these skillful people in start of this thread, calling them “balanced” just before. I laughing so hard.
#ele&engi pr0 ski11 met@ 2014-2015
Reminds me first months of game and “balanced” d/d eles.

Warrior perma lost to ele, doesnt matter build lol.

At this point i don’t really care if they nerf it as long as the nerfs are confined to spvp only. Ele and engi certainly arent OP in wvw. They’re viable and thats about it, but are easily hard countered by several builds on other classes. . WvW is still primarily dominated by PU mesmers, permastealth thieves, and super regen warriors that do zerker damage and somehow take almost no damage and can never be caught if you chase them. And celestial is pretty trash in wvw as you can mix stats there and mixing stuff is generally better than celestial.

The problem with ele in spvp is that their hard counters aren’t viable in conquest. They do have several hard counters, but no one is running any of them in spvp. You can’t cap while stealthed, and kiting someone off point means you lose, so no point in using the things that can hard counter ele and engi in conquest mode. If we ever get a deathmatch mode in spvp however, yeah ele and engi would be at the bottom of the food chain.

Anyway, my point is if you have to nerf it, keep the nerfs confined to spvp. I’m tired of a game mode i rarely ever play so heavily impacting the game mode i do play and throwing off what little balance there is in wvw.

Please make engineers and eles easy to kill like they used to be becauase I’d rather not exert any effort.

I’m killing Turret engis with warrior(not hambow).
I’m not focusing on turrets.
I don’t even drop to 50% hp.

I recommend people to learn to play their professions first.

How is IP an issue? It has a 10s ICD, procs on crits only and is just a single stack of a single condition? That’s one of the most trivial effects you can produce, automated or not.