Not Fun To Play or Play Against

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Posted by: Berk.8561

Berk.8561

I’m going to talk about another game briefly to illustrate my point, which is one that applies to many games and not just Guild Wars 2, and then I’ll talk about the principle with respect to Guild Wars 2:

Years ago, I played the Magic the Gathering card game. In that game, you active land cards to use the abilities on other cards. I built a deck of cards to played with that was based around the strategy of destroying my opponent’s land cards so that they couldn’t power any of the abilities on their other cards and could essentially do nothing to hurt me. It was a fairly effective deck that worked quite well. It also sucked all of the fun out of the game for my opponent (who essentially couldn’t play) and for me (because the strategy would play out pretty much the same way every time).

The lessons I learned? Just because it works doesn’t mean it’s fun and strategies based on denying a player the opportunity to play aren’t a lot of fun.

I see those problems in Guild Wars 2, particularly in those areas where players are playing against each other, but also with quite a few boss fights. What makes this problematic is that the design philosophy of Guild Wars 2 is specifically oriented around discouraging or even preventing players from griefing and frustrating each other and letting players play the way they want to play.

One of the more obvious examples is stealth, which is a great source of complaints in the forums. The root problem is that steath makes it difficult and frustrating to fight an opponent using it. While I’m personally fine with the basic strategy of using stealth (sneak in, do burst damage, flee if it doesn’t kill the opponent), there are two aspects of it that I find seriously not fun to play against, and comments on the message boards suggest that I’m not alone. The first is that players can stake other players while in stealth and there is little that can be done to counter it. The second is that players can heal, gain boons, and otherwise recharge while in stealth so they can quickly come back for a second attack. What’s problematic in both cases is that they put control of the encounter into the hands of only one player and the encounter normally ends when the other player either gets their kill, makes a mistake, or runs away. I’d rather the stealth lasted longer (even much longer) but they couldn’t heal or boost up while in stealth.

Next up long-duration or repeated CC effects such as long duration immobilizes, stuns, and repeatedly being knocked down by a hammer train. Not being able to control your character for a second or two because they’ve been knocked back, slowed down, or immobilized seems reasonable. Being frozen in place for seconds or repeatedly knocked around like soccer ball until dead means I’m not playing my character. I’m helplessly watching my character frozen in place or getting moved around by my opponent. It’s not just other players that do this, An increasing number of boss encounters seem to be working the same way.

Which bring me to my next point, which is that ANet must realize how problematic stealth and CC are to fight against, since they make many of their champion and other boss encounters largely immune to both, by having them spam AoE damage that will hit an opponent whether in stealth or not and by making them immune to most, if not all, CC effects. So in a case where there is no player playing the opponent to get frustrated, the NPC monster gets to frustrate the players by making abilities of their class that work just fine in every other situation not work at all. If it’s hard for ANet to create an NPC boss that can stand up to a team or zerg of players using steath, CC, and other abilities (clones, pets, etc.) such that they have to render those abilities largely worthless against their NPC boss encounters, what do you think playing against those situations as a player plays like? If an NPC champion encounter becomes hopelessly lame if the players start tossing the champion around like a beach ball, what do you think it feels like to be a player watching their character tossed around like a beach ball by a zerg in WvW?

I don’t expect all of this to be fixed, nor do I think all of this can be fixed. But the point I’m trying to make is that ANet should be thinking about letting players do interesting things with their characters during encounters, not how to prevent them from doing things with their characters or, in the extreme cases of CC spamming, do nothing at all until their character is killed. Not being able to move or attack and watching your character die while helpless is not fun and the designers should be trying to make that as rare in the game as possible. Basically, the more the game takes control away from the players and forces them to play a certain way, the more frustrating the game is going to become.

Kerzic [CoI] – Ranger – Eredon Terrace

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Posted by: Berk.8561

Berk.8561

I want to add that if the designers can figure out a way to implement CC abilities so that players can use them against their boss encounters and champions instead of turning them off but without them ruining those fights, they’ll likely also have solved the problems with CC being used in player vs. player combat in WvW and elsewhere. If those abilities can ruin an encounter with a boss or champion, it means that they can also ruin encounters between players fighting each other.

Kerzic [CoI] – Ranger – Eredon Terrace

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Posted by: dylan.5409

dylan.5409

Agreed. CC and stealth are both extremely frustrating.
I also agree that too much defense/offense is tied into those particular abilities. Taking the usual suspect, a thief, their invis is a cond removal, health regenerator, positioning reset/damage avoidance and set up for high burst; and has been pointed out elsewhere, offers close to 0 counterplay That being said, there are other thief builds in spvp that work really well using teleports/avoidance with extremely high cleave damage. However, while not as kittentealth (lol censored), the same all in 1 aspect applies (pistol whip is both high damage and damage avoidance with a small cc). The same can be said for a hambows stuns/ immobilizes and several other proff abilities (those 2 being the worst offenders imo).
At least as far as spvp goes, I would prefer to see defense, offense and cc on different abilities.

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

No game that has stuns, should also have stunlocks. Neither the player nor his enemies should get stunlocked. It’s never fun to be completely helpless. Especially for classes with poor access to stability.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: Tetsuyja.7805

Tetsuyja.7805

it’s annoying…too…listening to complains about stealth.

i am playing thief and i have one question:
Will you still complain about stealth if BS is nerfed and only does “frontstab”-damage?
i think u won’t. u can’t. there is no other skill that can hurt heavily. ok we nerf PW down to 50% of its damage.
Will u still be frustrated if a thief suddenly appears behind you and does ‘normal’ damage?

my fair proposal is: cast time BS 1/2 (from 1/4) with the normal animation (u can identify BS’s animation undoubtedly AND wait a moment……. …….. the thief becomes during channeling visible.

AND PLS PLS PLS PLS PLS PLS PLS i don’t want reading a post about “blocking/missing/invurnable in stealth should make visible”. PLS PLS PLS NOT. open another thread and post it there.

Example:
CnD (with 4sec stealth) – thief behind foe – cast BS + thief becomes visible for 1/2 sec
1. thief hits – thief gets revealed – everything ok
2. thief misses/blablabla/blablabla – thief becomes invisible for the last 1,5 sec + no revealed – everything ok

And for those people who will complain “only 1/2 sec BS cast time” – 3/4 is also possible. Anet has the choice. but the cast time should be not he point of discussion in this thread.

this proposal is only for BS and u can be sure that the other sneak attacks don’t need this.

i want positive feedback i am nerfing my own class, my favorite class

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Posted by: dylan.5409

dylan.5409

@Tetsuyja
Its an interesting idea. I would be concerned that this would make a bs thief non viable though; all I would have to do is wait for the visibility, not even a particular animation, and dodge roll. But endurance wont replenish as quickly as the thief would be able to keep trying for the backstab making for endless bs attempts. I could 180 turn i suppose and avoid it that way but the ability also has a 180 arc. Eh this would add counterplay, no question.

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Posted by: Kasei.8726

Kasei.8726

@Tetsuyja.7805
I won’t speak for OP, but I think you’re missing the point. Nerfing backstab doesn’t make fighting a player in stealth any more fun. The same goes for CC, being stunlocked, no matter how much damage is being done, isn’t any fun.

@Berk.8561
Many players don’t mind getting curb-stomped, without being able to fight back, if it means they can do the same to others. There are plenty of people that enjoy stealing the fun away, and I can only assume Anet built the game with these players in mind as well. I mainly play Guardian, I like a straight up fair fight, but I don’t expect others to feel the same.

With that said, I completely agree with you, but I think Anet will continue to try to cater to both play-styles, and things will continue to be frustrating for both sides.

(edited by Kasei.8726)

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

stealth classes are so much easier to deal with in this game, you can still hit stealthed thief, you can still use spells w/o target (at least most of them)

i am personally more frustrated with tanks doind almost as much dmg as glass cannons (sup warriors, hello condi tanks).. kind of kills whole purpose of playing direct dmg build/class

but seeing as anet keeps handling tanks/condi classes/builds more stuff and nerfing direct dmg over and over i am guessing we should just all reroll or quit this game

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Lugubras.2365

Lugubras.2365

You start well then you made a wrong example, stealth do not ruin the game,
things that ruin it immunities are:
Stability
Berseker Stance
Diamond Skin
Automated Response

The skills that make it invulnerable do not last long and are therefore manageable, but if you meet an engineer with Automated response and you have a condition build, him and who he supports are unbeatable for you.

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Posted by: Monoman.2068

Monoman.2068

this proposal is only for BS and u can be sure that the other sneak attacks don’t need this.

i want positive feedback i am nerfing my own class, my favorite class

I’m pretty sure most people have little issue with back stab and the issues lie with stealth being based less around skill (ex: CnD) and more around clicking a button or a combination of buttons to enter it.

I would rather see stealth get tied to skills like CnD or simply have long interrupt able casts like mass invisibility allowing for counter play instead of nerfs to stealth attacks. In return give thieves more abilities independent of stealth such as real condition cleansing, damage mitigation that isn’t tied to nasty spammable bursts etc.

Keep stealth as a massive reward that grants high bursts, condition removal, healing, repositioning, and damage avoidance opportunities, but tie it to skill.

Laviere – Hybrid Wellomancer
Makonne – Hybrid Regen Ranger

(edited by Monoman.2068)

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Something I’ve suggested before, and will continue to suggest, is to make stability much more widely available than it is now. Currently, stability lasts for a few seconds on very long cooldowns, making stability in PVP nearly useless. It’s never around when you need it, and opponents can just wait a few seconds for stability to wear off.

Stability granting utilities need to be more common, and give stability for much longer durations. At the current rates, I’d say to double the availability of stability.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: Chaosbroker.3860

Chaosbroker.3860

Something I’ve suggested before, and will continue to suggest, is to make stability much more widely available than it is now. Currently, stability lasts for a few seconds on very long cooldowns, making stability in PVP nearly useless. It’s never around when you need it, and opponents can just wait a few seconds for stability to wear off.

Stability granting utilities need to be more common, and give stability for much longer durations. At the current rates, I’d say to double the availability of stability.

The problem with that method would be creating the problem again from the other end of the spectrum. In short why even play a stun play-style when your opponents all have stability access equal to or on shorter cooldowns than your stun access.

It’s not that I disagree with you necessarily, personally I feel some of the basic mechanics of the game need some tweaking. But the fact that some classes have weak or non-existent counters to certain play-styles is more of a problem than play-styles that aren’t considered “fair” exist.

Callo Merlose – Revenant
Envy – Fort Aspenwood
“Believe in yourself … because the rest of us think you’re an idiot”

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Something I’ve suggested before, and will continue to suggest, is to make stability much more widely available than it is now. Currently, stability lasts for a few seconds on very long cooldowns, making stability in PVP nearly useless. It’s never around when you need it, and opponents can just wait a few seconds for stability to wear off.

Stability granting utilities need to be more common, and give stability for much longer durations. At the current rates, I’d say to double the availability of stability.

The problem with that method would be creating the problem again from the other end of the spectrum. In short why even play a stun play-style when your opponents all have stability access equal to or on shorter cooldowns than your stun access.

It’s not that I disagree with you necessarily, personally I feel some of the basic mechanics of the game need some tweaking. But the fact that some classes have weak or non-existent counters to certain play-styles is more of a problem than play-styles that aren’t considered “fair” exist.

I’d argue that even doubling the availability of stability will not render stun moot. Just tactical. Instead of spamming stuns non-stop, you have to actually watch your opponent and wait for the opportunity to stun them. Likewise, players with stability will have to use it at crucial moments, since blowing stability just whenever will waste that resource.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

I will agree that stealth-heavy builds are pretty much NEVER fun to fight against. I can take a few 3 second long stealths that are designed to set up a backstab, that’s a staple of the Thief/Rouge archetype. What pushes things too far is when they can stack upwards of 10 seconds of stealth WHILE healing and using other skills. Standing around and waiting to find out whether they have run away or if they just want to wait for CDs while I can do nothing but flail around hoping I hit is not fun. At least when non-stealth classes retreat you KNOW that’s what they’re doing.

I’ve downed Thieves in stealth, but they were able to use the downed stealth skill on top of what they already had to revive and continue the fight. Just because you have the physical ability to hit a stealthed target, doesn’t mean it’s practical, especially in open spaces where they could be anywhere around you. When stealth skills have predictable lengths – such as with D/P – you can roughly guess when to dodge. When it’s 10+ seconds you have no clue what’s going to happen or when.

Say what you will about Control, you see it coming. You will always see that Earthshaker, Skull Crack, Bull’s Charge, or whatever else heading your way. Plenty of classes have countermeasures but often times in this condi meta they don’t bring enough short term power to take advantage of it. I’ve been seeing a lot more damage focused Guardians in TPvP because they have a lot of ways to avoid being controlled all while dealing high amounts of damage. The solution to control is less about nerfing it’s effectiveness and more about the community realizing that their current strategy isn’t going to cut it and if they want to beat it they need to try something different. For example, I can think of a build for pretty much every class but Ele that has a high chance of beating Hambow. You seem used in TPvP more and more often but almost never in WvW.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

I’d argue that even doubling the availability of stability will not render stun moot. Just tactical. Instead of spamming stuns non-stop, you have to actually watch your opponent and wait for the opportunity to stun them. Likewise, players with stability will have to use it at crucial moments, since blowing stability just whenever will waste that resource.

THIS was what I wanted to say as well. Kudos. Stuns and CC should be all about timing. There should be brief windows when an opponent is vulnerable to CC and stuns, and not all the time. Because then you get stunlocking, like we have now.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Something I’ve suggested before, and will continue to suggest, is to make stability much more widely available than it is now. Currently, stability lasts for a few seconds on very long cooldowns, making stability in PVP nearly useless. It’s never around when you need it, and opponents can just wait a few seconds for stability to wear off.

Stability granting utilities need to be more common, and give stability for much longer durations. At the current rates, I’d say to double the availability of stability.

Hrm… this would only be ok if it were on utility-skills which are fully dedicated to stability (as in, you get a lot of stability, but it takes up an entire slot).

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Svarty.8019

Svarty.8019

It also sucked all of the fun out of the game for my opponent (who essentially couldn’t play) and for me (because the strategy would play out pretty much the same way every time).

The lessons I learned? Just because it works doesn’t mean it’s fun and strategies based on denying a player the opportunity to play aren’t a lot of fun.

Thank you, Berk.8561, for the BEST FORUM POST since the game was launched.

TL;DR:
Frustrating things

  • Stealth – Playing against stealth is frustrating because there are not enough tools to counter-play.
  • CC – Helplessly watching character frozen in place or punted around for long durations is frustrating.
  • NPC Immunities are frustrating.

I’ll add that a long-time slogan I’ve been bandying around (this relates to the third point) is, “why give players powers if the bosses are going to be immune to them?”.

Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

I’ll add that a long-time slogan I’ve been bandying around (this relates to the third point) is, “why give players powers if the bosses are going to be immune to them?”.

I happen to have a similar mantra:

Why design combat mechanics, and then make those mechanics useless in a large part of the game?

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: pza.8024

pza.8024

@OP, luckily i didn’t scroll down in the first place, or else i would be discouraged to read this wall of text due to my limited time for the forums. i’d like you to know for the future, that, although i like the style of your feedback, it’s quite lengthy to read and the longer your post is, the less likely it is to be read. this applies especially for devs, although they always say they read everything that is on the forums.

i just hope this helps making the communication between devs and players easier and (in my opinion) valuable posts like these are taken into consideration more often.

@svarty: thanks for tl;dr, but this should be the op’s work, since he knows best what he wants to tell us.

@Topic: I LOVE the second last boss encounter in crucible of eternity – submarine – (Bjarl the Rampager). Knockdown this boss at the right moment to hold off its immunity! the boss could hit harder, though, but that has nothing to do with the mechanics of the boss.

(edited by pza.8024)

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Do you remember to Queens gauntlet? None of the bosses had defiant and they were still challanging for a single player. More or less.

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Posted by: Bazzoong.7145

Bazzoong.7145

Personally I think games with heavy cc are fun, I also think games with stealth are fun.

I bet I am not the only one in that regard.

The original post is one big complaint about the game and about it’s mechanics, it is a poor attempt to reduce other players fun for the sake of the posters fun. The OP is not about tweaking or balancing it is about fundamentally changing the game at it’s core.

If you do not have fun playing do not play.

The whole argument is totally inconsistent and only based on the poster preferences disregarding other players, The game as a product was advertised and sold with stealth and cc, the proffession trailers showed tons of it, people bought the game for that stuff because they want that stuff and because they think that stuff is fun.

(edited by Bazzoong.7145)

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Posted by: MonMalthias.4763

MonMalthias.4763

There is something to be said about Stealth mechanics in that it, just like immunities and hard counter mechanics and overpowered passives puts the control of the encounter largely on the person using the mechanic.

There is little play to Stealth right now that isn’t predicated upon the user rather than predicated on the person Stealth is used against. Combat log does not show that you are damaging a Stealthed target. Similarly, hitting a Stealthed target has no visual feedback on whether you are doing enough pressure or not; nor does it let you predict what the Stealthed target’s next move is. In a game that was originally designed with the intent that players could read each other’s skills, Stealth throws most of that out the window.

The point is that playing with and around Stealth is an underdeveloped mechanic. Right now, only Sic ‘Em is a direct counter to Stealth and what’s worse, it’s a hard counter, which means that it’s going to be overpowered in the specific circumstance it is useful, and _useless everywhere else. You see the same thing in Automated Response, Diamond Skin, Berserker Stance, Stability, and a whole slew of other mechanics.

Making Stealth a Boon, then increasing access to Boon Hate and increasing access to short durations of Stealth to all classes would fully flesh out Stealth as a mechanic in this game. Until then, everyone is stuck with spamming AOE and autoattacking the air and random dodging or 180 turning.

Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: Amins.3710

Amins.3710

When you have CC, you have Diminishing Returns: All problems solved.

Anet fails at this, which is why there has been a massive exodus.

./remove head from @$$

Amins – Guardian
Gameplay Video’s & Forum Post

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

If you do not have fun playing do not play.

This is always a bad argument in every situation possible. It deflects a discussion, rather than addressing criticism of the game. You may not agree with the OP, but then provide arguments.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Meh, Diminishing Returns is a bandaid, because you have issues balancing your CC. Specifically, your game has too much CC (across all classes), so you need to add a mechanic so that users cannot easily pile up the plentiful CC they have. DRs.

The correct solution is to not have so much CC in the first place. Specifically, not share CC across all classes. It’s ok if only class A and B have access to say, Stun. And only one of them can do it with more than one attack and for more than one second. And the other 6 classes don’t have it at all. That’s fine! The codebase won’t bite back!

But it’s a difficult concept for players to swallow. Players see their neighbour having X, so they want X, and keep N, which they have. In turn the other player wants N, while keeping X.
If a dev listens to that (“washing out the classes”), then they end up in a situation where most classes have access to many types of CC in one form or another, leading to exactly the situation where you need diminishing returns.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

The correct solution is to not have so much CC in the first place. Specifically, not share CC across all classes. It’s ok if only class A and B have access to say, Stun. And only one of them can do it with more than one attack and for more than one second. And the other 6 classes don’t have it at all. That’s fine! The codebase won’t bite back!

I don’t agree with that entirely. Look at what the game is like right now. We already have a situation where classes have unequal access to certain core mechanics, yet some are clearly more important than others. Take stability for example, pretty dang important. But not all classes have good access to stability, but that doesn’t make the enemies hit any less hard.

Same can be said for CC and stuns, mobility or reflection. In some areas of the game these are very important. So the class with the best access to these things will come out on top. I’m not against specialization, but if your class is specialized in something irrelevant, the class sucks.

I do agree that it is too easy to spam CC skills. The more players you have, the more these skills can be spammed. So what we need is better access to stability across the board for all classes. I think it ‘might’ be better if a player/enemy can only be CC’d when he lowers his/her defenses, so that CC requires precise timing.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: MonMalthias.4763

MonMalthias.4763

When you have CC, you have Diminishing Returns: All problems solved.

Anet fails at this, which is why there has been a massive exodus.

./remove head from @$$

Meh, Diminishing Returns is a bandaid, because you have issues balancing your CC. Specifically, your game has too much CC (across all classes), so you need to add a mechanic so that users cannot easily pile up the plentiful CC they have. DRs.

The correct solution is to not have so much CC in the first place. Specifically, not share CC across all classes. It’s ok if only class A and B have access to say, Stun. And only one of them can do it with more than one attack and for more than one second. And the other 6 classes don’t have it at all. That’s fine! The codebase won’t bite back!

But it’s a difficult concept for players to swallow. Players see their neighbour having X, so they want X, and keep N, which they have. In turn the other player wants N, while keeping X.
If a dev listens to that (“washing out the classes”), then they end up in a situation where most classes have access to many types of CC in one form or another, leading to exactly the situation where you need diminishing returns.

This is extremely true. Diminishing returns will always be a bandaid when the source of the problem is an overabundance of CC. That being said, “Hard” CC (That which takes away all control bar Stunbreaks i.e. Stun, Launch, Knockdown, Push, Pull, Fear) have never actually been that prevalent save for very specific setups like Mace/Shield Hammer Warrior, or Decap Engi, or Lockdown Mesmer, or a few others that I’ll neglect to mention.

Some of these sources of CC are “fair” in that they have telegraphed windups. Others come out instantly. Still others have excessive durations like 3-4 seconds. Most recently, Immobilise stacking has become a problem with durations stacking up into the double digits in some circumstances, which obliterates classes without teleports.

All of this comes down to 2 things:

  • It is quite easy to produce a setup incorporating multiple hard CCs that also does good damage by itself. The most damaging skills should require some element of CC to setup and land, but a CC oriented build should not be able to put out significant pressure by itself.
  • Vast inequities of Stability uptime across classes, or CC mitigation that is largely passive, or CC mitigation that does not provide Stability such that Stunbreakers might break 1 hard CC, only to be layered with another.

That being said, CC should be capable of being layered as a team effort towards focusing a target. This is one of the core bases of teamfights and this should not be discarded. So here are two things that can be done:

  • Give most stunbreakers for most classes some minimal Stability uptime. 1-2 seconds is already enough to break chained Hard CC.
  • Eliminate Immobilise stacking with a view towards incorporating snare-breaks (targeted cleanses of Immobilise) into more skills.
Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: pza.8024

pza.8024

All of this comes down to 2 things:

  • It is quite easy to produce a setup incorporating multiple hard CCs that also does good damage by itself. The most damaging skills should require some element of CC to setup and land, but a CC oriented build should not be able to put out significant pressure by itself.
  • Vast inequities of Stability uptime across classes, or CC mitigation that is largely passive, or CC mitigation that does not provide Stability such that Stunbreakers might break 1 hard CC, only to be layered with another.

That being said, CC should be capable of being layered as a team effort towards focusing a target. This is one of the core bases of teamfights and this should not be discarded. So here are two things that can be done:

  • Give most stunbreakers for most classes some minimal Stability uptime. 1-2 seconds is already enough to break chained Hard CC.
  • Eliminate Immobilise stacking with a view towards incorporating snare-breaks (targeted cleanses of Immobilise) into more skills.

as a passionate engineer i must say, this is GREAT feedback. the only thing i would add is that for a real cc-chain break, stability must be 2-3 seconds imo.

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Posted by: dylan.5409

dylan.5409

Simple, effective, sounds good:D

(edited by dylan.5409)

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Posted by: stinkypants.8419

stinkypants.8419

Counters to stealth… you can still do damage to the thieves when they’re stealthed, drop AE/CC, leave the fight… I don’t even bother to fight DP thieves, I mean… what’s the point.

I seriously do not understand all the complaints about stealth when there is so much condition spam, it’s like if I look sideways at an engi or necro and I start bleeding to death.

(Alvyn | Crystal Desert )

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Posted by: Silhouette.5631

Silhouette.5631

The complaints about stealth is that theres no way to counter it. It basicly ruins the fight for whoevers playing and takes any resemblence of strategy out of the scenario. A thief goes stealth, hes either trying to run or backstab you. Hes trying to run, great your not goign to catch him. Hes trying to backstab you. Great you can run or swing wildly, neither of these are very proactive options. Its to one sided, to black and white, theres not enough back and forth to it

Edit: Now once that thief pops back up its another situation entirely, but while hes stealthed its like, why even bother fighting? The best strategy is just to run until it wears off and thats no fun

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Posted by: Dynnen.6405

Dynnen.6405

Diminishing returns/stealth counters are for housewives and little girls: #manmodeactivated

- Jonathan Sharp

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Posted by: Tetsuyja.7805

Tetsuyja.7805

:D ‘manmodeactivated’

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Posted by: Thighum.7295

Thighum.7295

Personally, I don’t really care for stealth either but due to the way Anet built the class it feels very necessary. We have EVERYTHING tied into it.

Increased damage: check
Healing: check
Condi Removal: check
Blind Spamming: check
Benefits of stealth such as easy escapes or player/damage avoidance: check

Its set up in a way that you basically want to be in stealth as much as possible due to all the benefits that are tied to it, and everything currently is balanced around it.

I feel that having so much tied to it actually limits thief diversity. If they would unlink the healing, blinds, condi removal, and increased damage from stealth, and made stealth simply about mind games and escapes, I bet it would be “spammed” far less. Of course, that would require a massive rebalance, which I doubt will ever happen.

Sometimes I wish I could get my assassin from gw1 back where there was no steath; however I bet people would find something to complain about it too, as they did in gw1 (until it was crazy nerfed) and every other game that had a thief/rogue/assassin character.

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Posted by: pza.8024

pza.8024

a funny thing would be, if thieves could only stealth when not in line of sight of any players. as this might be difficult/buggy/impossible to achieve, why not make thieves be able to stealth only out of combat…? or at least most skills could work only out of combat.

ofcourse buff thieves ability to fight without stealth in return.

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Posted by: BEINGHUMAN.4167

BEINGHUMAN.4167

Nice to see another MTG player!

My issue is how easy it is to play these powerful builds (Stealth or CC heavy). I don’t feel challenged when my opponent doesn’t know where I am, and I still have like 6 seconds of stealth remaining…

I feel like these types of builds should require a lot more skill to master/be good at.

I expect the easy, face-rolling builds to be Power/DPS, not CC’ing someone til they are auto attacked to death, because I have a bar full of CC skills.

Obviously I am not a video game programmer, so don’t try to retort with
“Well how would YOU fix it then?!”

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Posted by: pza.8024

pza.8024

Obviously I am not a video game programmer, so don’t try to retort with
“Well how would YOU fix it then?!”

at least give it a try. i think any idea is welcome and those can come from players aswell as from programmers, mostly because we all do not know what’s possible and what isn’t.

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Posted by: Maliel.8362

Maliel.8362

If i had to chose a nerf to stealth it will be movement speed, lets say 50% or something like that, because this is the main reason stealth is considered op in this game.

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Posted by: BEINGHUMAN.4167

BEINGHUMAN.4167

If I were to attempt to come up with any kind of solution to this stealth OP-ness, it would be to just go over and balance all stealth skills and traits and anything that has to do with stealth. Making sure someone can’t pick weapons and traits that give them over, let’s just says for numbers sake, 6 seconds of stealth.
Is it really that hard to comb over skills and traits and adjust any unbalances you find along the way?
For the OP-ness of being CC’d to death, maybe something like with each CC applied, the duration of the new one is shorter and shorter? Idk, I’m not a game developer/programmer and I don’t get paid to come up with these kinds of ideas.

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

No game that has stuns, should also have stunlocks. Neither the player nor his enemies should get stunlocked. It’s never fun to be completely helpless. Especially for classes with poor access to stability.

This ^^

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Posted by: BEINGHUMAN.4167

BEINGHUMAN.4167

No game that has stuns, should also have stunlocks. Neither the player nor his enemies should get stunlocked. It’s never fun to be completely helpless. Especially for classes with poor access to stability.

This ^^

Agreed. There is nothing less fun then losing all control of your character til death.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

As an avid MTG player, not only am I going to mention that LD decks are often very ineffective in the competitive scene due to their slow pace and few win conditions, but simply put denial is part of any given game.

Stealth really isn’t that overpowered. It moreso has to deal with pistol offhand. Stab damage is high, but lower than a lot of other burst skills in the game, such as eviscerate. Additionally, stab damage only ever proves to be very high when the thief builds signets, and that’s an all-in build which cannot simply “stake out” a target while stealthed, for SR is then not accessible.

Pistol offhand is pretty much the biggest issue due to the fact the stealth skill is so accessible through smoke blast field with Heartseeker’s stealth finisher. This makes stealth uptime very easy to come across for thieves running D/P. D/D, however, is an extremely fair build and has significantly lower stealth uptime when built for burst damage. It has more to do with the weapon and less to do with the mechanic.

Regarding CC, it’s fine to have some, however again, I think this is mostly a case with weapons. Simply, hammer offers too much, and other weaponsets too little. Not enough utility skills involve CC for those classes which can’t build hammer, and the durations and helplessness aspects of them are simply just too high due to further limited access to counters like stability.

I’m in massive support of redesigning damage equations for I will agree that tankier builds, and notably condi builds, simply deal too much damage as opposed to ones which invest everything in offensive. Obviously it should be possible for a tank to kill a GC, and vice versa, however offtank builds seem to get the best of both worlds in many cases. I personally know a friend of mine playing a guardian running defensive stats has more attack than my equally-geared berserker/valk thief and ranger. DPS, yes, he’s got less, however his staying power is way better, and of course, he has access to quite a bit of CC which is effectively free hits.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

@MonMalthias:
I think Vanguard (broken as the game was) had an interesting setup here in that one class was able to produce nearly any weakness (basically a combo field in GW2-terms), while another was able to exploit nearly any weakness. Yet neither class was useful on their own. One class couldn’t do both.

Translated to GW2, if I build my Mesmer for Confusion-damage – a type of soft-CC – then that should be all I do. That’s it. I “ask” enemies to not use skills, on the basis that they take damage from it.
I shouldn’t be able to freely re-apply this, ofc. And most importantly, I shouldn’t have much damage output on my own, my damage is indirect and comes from enemies attacking through Confusion. I might not deal any damage, in which case I added CC (they didn’t attack).

I think what I’d do long-term is reduce each class to a primary and a secondary CC mechanic, with one ability each (that’s it!).

For example Mesmers would have Daze as their primary mechanic, from Mantra of Distraction. And Confusion as the secondary mechanic, from Scepter 3.
Rangers would have Immobilize as the primary CC and Cripple as the secondary.
Necros would have Fear both as the primary and the secondary, meaning they have two abilities to apply it, one only indirectly accessible (Death Shroud).

Etc, etc.

All classes would be equal in that they have two CC abilities and two types of CC. All classes would be different in that they have different types of CC, hence they can stack it if they want to. No class would have a lot of CC.

Now I can specialize into these CC abilities, in which case they should be strong. Confusion should deal a lot of damage, Daze should last longer and stun, Immobilize could be traited to stack with itself, and so on. However, these traits have to be on slots shared with important damage traits, hence you have to decide what you want to provide.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Bran.7425

Bran.7425

Do you remember to Queens gauntlet? None of the bosses had defiant and they were still challanging for a single player. More or less.

They were also inherently immune to immobilize (and by default the bleed from ranger’s entangle elite skill) all without stating that in the “useful” under the name text. So while not defiant they were immune to an effect for the sake of not wanting to design around that status existing.

Pets have been hidden due to rising Player complaints.

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Posted by: stof.9341

stof.9341

No game that has stuns, should also have stunlocks. Neither the player nor his enemies should get stunlocked. It’s never fun to be completely helpless. Especially for classes with poor access to stability.

This ^^

Agreed. There is nothing less fun then losing all control of your character til death.

DotA has stun locks and very very very limited access to stability. We don’t call it “losing all control of your character til death” but “you where out of position” :p

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

They were also inherently immune to immobilize (and by default the bleed from ranger’s entangle elite skill) all without stating that in the “useful” under the name text. So while not defiant they were immune to an effect for the sake of not wanting to design around that status existing.

This sort of easy design is all over GW2, and it really bugs me. There’s just so many encounters that negate important game mechanics. The designers made an attempt to create some semblance of balance between the classes, but then they make some mechanics pointless for various encounters, while the mechanics of other classes remain untouched.

As a necromancer, I’m getting sick and tired of seeing nothing but enemies that are immune to fear. If the designers don’t like designing around fear, why the heck did they include the mechanic in the first place?

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: VideoGamermike.5813

VideoGamermike.5813

It seems to me like this isnt a GW2 problem…this is an MMO problem.

What I ekep seeing in these kinds of game, and It’s ironic im having this whole affair AGAIN, is this ridiculous love of stun, immunities, and healing. I was in The Black road on WC3, and finished a discussion with a group of people that had figured out builds that can make it so the enemies NEVER fight. How is that fun?

And yes, if stealth does allow you to heal, charge attacks, and still remain immune to EVERYTHING, thats ridiculous. Heck, just make him capable of being attacked if you can track him (like say a spy in TF2), and your better but….

I don’t know if this is just me, but….why do melee weapons have spread attacks anyway? Dont get me wrong a -little- spread is fine, but why can I hit five enemies at the same time, when the guy whos only 2 feet away can only hit once. Sure range has it’s bonuses’ but it’s not as though warriors cant cross that gap either. CC abilities should only be in the hands of people who put out risks to do so, warriors and guardians don’t fit the role of “slam everything in a 90 degree radius”

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Posted by: Dynnen.6405

Dynnen.6405

Diminishing returns haven’t been done right since DAoC, so maybe the devs were just like “Well we can’t do what they did so lets just leave out diminishing returns”

But it should be like this: You get stunned, you’re immune for 10 seconds after it wears off/breaks. You get mezzed, you get a long duration immunity. Roots break on most damage and you’ve got yourself a working system…but ya know, diminishing returns…

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

But it should be like this: You get stunned, you’re immune for 10 seconds after it wears off/breaks. You get mezzed, you get a long duration immunity. Roots break on most damage and you’ve got yourself a working system…but ya know, diminishing returns…

This system was terrible, in hindsight. It gave the same immunity independent of what specifically hit you.

Meaning that any incidental CC effect will trigger immunity, only there’s no feedback to the attacking player that someone else just did that.

It was ok in 1v1 situations, sure. As soon as you had two players per side you usually had 0 clue what was going on immunity wise, opened with a Healer stun and then hoped for the best.

There’s a reason that WoW had incremental DR. Namely, that reason was DAoC. :P
Not that incremental DR was any better, really.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Berk.8561

Berk.8561

As an avid MTG player, not only am I going to mention that LD decks are often very ineffective in the competitive scene due to their slow pace and few win conditions, but simply put denial is part of any given game.

For the record, I’m talking quite a while ago, not only with cards like Sinkhole but also Strip Mines and so on. Whether it would be very effective in a modern game or even against a more skilled opponent when I was playing with it (it was casual play with friends) is, however, irrelevant to my point. It was plenty effective at the time I used it against the people I played with and once it started working (not always, but quite often), the game became predictable and boring for me and frustrating for my opponent because they couldn’t play. People play games to play games. They don’t play games to sit there and not be able to play the game while it happens in front of them.

Kerzic [CoI] – Ranger – Eredon Terrace