Guild Wars 2

Our next Feature Pack is due to March. It’s still 4 more months away, but I would hope the community might be able to influence what we see in the longterm.

You don’t need metrics to know that the perception of Necromancers in an Open-World and Dungeon PvE environment is often upon.

Necromancer is deeply in need of a re-work for PvE. Unfortunately, most of what it can do, is currently done better by other classes. And the few niches a Necromancer does have (mitigating falling damage, condi draw+transfer, and condi-spread with epidemic), are never needed enough in any PvE game mode to actually justify using a Necromancer over other classes.

Furthermore, Necromancer traits are currently underpowered. We have a bunch of useless traits which interact with Healing Power, but not many of them give us something more practical in a PvE setting.

I invite ArenaNet to please examine Necromancers for the next Feature Pack. We are in a desperate need of a re-work.

Thank you!
- Necromancer player

Ever played it in WvW or PvP?
Do you know why they are a solid part of GWEN in zergs?
And about PvE:
When leveling up my necro I had a easy time with axe/dagger. Rofl-killing any mob / veteran like every other class as well.
In dungeons / fractals you just equip rabid (or the new sinister stuff) or berserker and will be golden in terms of dmg and survivability for pug-groups.
World-bosses are a breeze, like on any other class as well, and farming events with staff is just too easy.

Really, it only becomes a issue if you’re a try-hard speed-runner.
That in itself is obviously not a bad thing to be, but re-desinging a whole class, just because a minority that is not even playing it to its fullest extend, wants it?
nope.

There are several bugs that need to be fixed (some even since lauch) and some small tweaks here and there are always welcome, but redesigning its mere core? For PvE?
Why?

I mean, PvE in gw2 only consists of 5-man content and appart from high-level fractals every single encounter is pure face-rolling, given that you don’t put a clock next to your PC so that you can judge people for spend seconds more on a boss, lol.

Stop taking my godkitten profession specific mechanic away from me when I enter PvP and I’ll be happy… That is honestly all I care. Building up Life Force is not easy unless you’re built to do it. Which means we start every match as a cripple until we get at least 20 – 30% LF generated. I’m sorry but no matter how you put it, this is completely unfair to me. Start us off with a minimum of 20% Life Force and I’ll be content. Draining it to 0 is completely stupid and I shouldn’t have to sacrifice minions or staff AA someone a dozen times to use what’s central to my profession.

As for PvE, yes we’re definitely lacking and I’d support a rework. But we’re not incapable of doing PvE we’re just not top tier. If we join a dungeon it’ll go about 1minute slower. It’s not like we can’t finish the dungeon or like it’ll take ten times longer.

Arantheal.7396:

Ever played it in WvW or PvP?
Do you know why they are a solid part of GWEN in zergs?
And about PvE:
When leveling up my necro I had a easy time with axe/dagger. Rofl-killing any mob / veteran like every other class as well.
In dungeons / fractals you just equip rabid (or the new sinister stuff) or berserker and will be golden in terms of dmg and survivability for pug-groups.
World-bosses are a breeze, like on any other class as well, and farming events with staff is just too easy.

Really, it only becomes a issue if you’re a try-hard speed-runner.
That in itself is obviously not a bad thing to be, but re-desinging a whole class, just because a minority that is not even playing it to its fullest extend, wants it?
nope.

There are several bugs that need to be fixed (some even since lauch) and some small tweaks here and there are always welcome, but redesigning its mere core? For PvE?
Why?

I mean, PvE in gw2 only consists of 5-man content and appart from high-level fractals every single encounter is pure face-rolling, given that you don’t put a clock next to your PC so that you can judge people for spend seconds more on a boss, lol.

Necromancers are only good for zergs. The potential of every other class outweighs the potential of a necromancer is EVERY SINGLR ASPECT except the ONE condition DMG build that have very small sustain.

As for using condition damage is dungeons, that is stupid, someone else’s condition damage will override yours.

The Change that necromancer need the most is to make Ds and healing not conflict each other.

I cannot understand why anyone would think it would be a good thing to have a profession mechanic that completly negates a central aspect like healing.

Actually, Necromancer is not that good at Condi dmg. Brazil did a test against Berserker abomination, and it took a Necromancer twice as long as Warrior.

Muchacho.2390:

The Change that necromancer need the most is to make Ds and healing not conflict each other.

I cannot understand why anyone would think it would be a good thing to have a profession mechanic that completly negates a central aspect like healing.

Healing is not, and was never an issue for me in PvE.

The issue is that Necromancer traits are a mess.

1) DS + Traited healing and regen and maybe outer source heals actualy healing you, be it the DS or you own hp bar

2) Starting match with NOT ZERO Proffesion mechanic .

Current most accepted sweet spot is 20% LF , could also be always 50% when out of combat and a bit reduced max, it would make min/max LF scenarios closer and easier to balance.

Kain Francois.4328:

Actually, Necromancer is not that good at Condi dmg. Brazil did a test against Berserker abomination, and it took a Necromancer twice as long as Warrior.

Muchacho.2390:

The Change that necromancer need the most is to make Ds and healing not conflict each other.

I cannot understand why anyone would think it would be a good thing to have a profession mechanic that completly negates a central aspect like healing.

Healing is not, and was never an issue for me in PvE.

The issue is that Necromancer traits are a mess.

True, for pve it may not be an issue.

But my comment is not about pve or even pvp/wvw (in which necromancer are actually okish) but about a bad game mechanic (and with that i mean not DS in general but the interaction between DS and healing) that shouldnt exist at all.

It is a mechanic that makes you hate (atleast for me) going into bloodmagic or taking any healing/siphon traits/sigil/rune etc.
For me it is even the reason why i would never take another heal then CC. For SoV and WoB you can play around since those effects only last 5-6 seconds after casting the skills, so it is not that bad for them but for bloodfiend this is just terrible.

Also traits being a mess is not a necromancer specific thing…

Jelzouki.4128:

Necromancers are only good for zergs. The potential of every other class outweighs the potential of a necromancer is EVERY SINGLR ASPECT except the ONE condition DMG build that have very small sustain.

That is not true. I have seen you make this claim in a few threads, but I have yet to see you offer any evidence to support it. Nor does my experience suggest you will find any evidence.

Jelzouki.4128:

As for using condition damage is dungeons, that is stupid, someone else’s condition damage will override yours.

Doubtful. Anytime I am the only necro their, I am the only condition focused build. Heck, I go to world bosses and see all of my damage tick. No one else uses conditions. All of that aside, when I run power, I dish out a great damage out put.

coglin.1867:

Jelzouki.4128:

Necromancers are only good for zergs. The potential of every other class outweighs the potential of a necromancer is EVERY SINGLR ASPECT except the ONE condition DMG build that have very small sustain.

That is not true. I have seen you make this claim in a few threads, but I have yet to see you offer any evidence to support it. Nor does my experience suggest you will find any evidence.

Jelzouki.4128:

As for using condition damage is dungeons, that is stupid, someone else’s condition damage will override yours.

Doubtful. Anytime I am the only necro their, I am the only condition focused build. Heck, I go to world bosses and see all of my damage tick. No one else uses conditions. All of that aside, when I run power, I dish out a great damage out put.

What evidence do you need? If you play a necromancer its crystal clear what needs to be worked on. That’s why whenever I make these claims (in which i do provide evidence) everyone in the necro community is on the same page as me. You do more damage playing the power meta in PvE. I can’t take you seriously if you think condition damage is superior to power in PvE.

“Need to be worked on” and the claim that “they are only good in zergs” are not the same. Particularly when I feel the second one. I have yet to see you offer any facts to support that statement.

As well, when you claim to speak for an entire community, it suggest to me that you are not confident enough in the your argument. Might I suggest that you stick to speaking for yourself. Master that first. You could start by offering some facts about how necromancers are not good outside of zergs, as you claim.

By the way, I am glad you cannot take someone seriously who suggest that condition damage is superior to direct damage in PvE. Good thing I never said anything of the sort. I did say they are very strong when your the only one at a PvE situation using condition damage. I would like to think you can see the difference in those two statements.

Ill throw in my two cents, I don’t think the necro needs a rework, but tweaks. Let self healing like regen work in deathshroud, let signet passives work in deathshroud, switch out unholy martyr and unholy sanctuary in the trait trees, or give unholy sanctuary greater base heal, but less heal scaling. Corruptions should be more powerful, maybe make masts of corruption apply additional effects on corruption skills, and move it to grandmaster, bumping withering precision down to master and decreasing its ICD to 10. Also, siphons, they need freaking buffs as well, it’s ridiculous that a tree dedicate to aggressive sustain heals less hp per second than healing signet, and only heal as much as healing signet when you have very optimal (and rare) conditions. It would be nice if we had way to use life force in alternate ways as well, like to heal or revive allies, or harm enemies by corrupting their life force. I mean, we’re masters of life and death, so why do we seem to have the least capable way to help our allies? Also, minions….please fix the flesh of the master bug, and their targeting. Hell, just give us a simple attack command, or make calling a target cause our minions to engage. I know they aren’t supposed to be pets, but would be nice if we ya some control over them…necro has a lot of potential to be an amazing profession, and even now I find it to be my favorite, but it does need help as it just lacks the basic synergy other classes have already.

And that’s my 2 cents.

Certain players posting on all of these necro threads need to stop being Chicken Littles and L2P. Necro is not in nearly as bad of shape in relation to other classes as are implied by some of these posts, and these posts distract from actual constructive necromancer issues.

Roe.3679:

Certain players posting on all of these necro threads need to stop being Chicken Littles and L2P. Necro is not in nearly as bad of shape in relation to other classes as are implied by some of these posts, and these posts distract from actual constructive necromancer issues.

What issues would those be?

Some people need to realize that in PvE Necromancers do not need as much as a rework as PvE as a whole needs a rework… I mean, come on… PvE is borked, simple as that…

What most people want is the class to be Warrior or Guardian 2.0 with some DPS Buffs or Reflects… Ain’t gonna happen (Even though Corrosive Poison Cloud would be so much better with Projectile Negation)…

Necromancer’s fill a weird niche, namely boon-hate, which serves no purpose considering enemies literally spam their boons like D/D Elementalists on steroids… And since the classes’ strength cannot be utilized, the weaknesses the class has (No vigor, good stab income, lack of cleave etc.) become more and more apparennt, especially in the race against the other classes…

If it were up to me though, I’d make Blood Magic more interesting in the sense of enabling teammates to steal health (PvP and PvE), because this would enable build diversity as one, and gives the Necromancer a unique way of “increasing damage”… Mind you, this is still far from “Solving” the issue that Necromancers have in PvE since they are just miles behind other classes in terms of combat utility…

Then again, the content now is so dropdead boring that it can be completed on any class… You could run a naked Condi Warrior if you feel like it and still complete CM (Done that)

That thread a few weeks ago, about who you would want in your group… I think only one guy didn’t rank necro dead last.

I’d argue that they are worthless in zergs. Beyond aoe chill for catching runners, and corrupting the occasional boon-tank, I don’t see anything that they offer, and lots of classes can deal with a boon-tank.

…condi-removal in a zerg is almost instant with all the shouts, warhorns and eles rotating through water, so not only does a zerg not need condi removal, a condi-necro’s own conditions are almost instantly removed by other zergs, so why bother?

Corrupt boon is a 40 second cooldown, for (let’s be honest here) a mild inconvenience to another player. It’s not like a hammer guardian cares if you corrupt his protection. Or a warrior cares about fury. The most is does is annoy someone trying to keep their stacks of might maxed out.

…and that’s the most it will ever be. Corrupting boons will never be a real thing, because the necro is the only class that does it, so if it was good, it would be completely over-powered.

And like Kain pointed out, necros have really poor condition damage.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Some people need to realize that in PvE Necromancers do not need as much as a rework as PvE as a whole needs a rework… I mean, come on… PvE is borked, simple as that…

What most people want is the class to be Warrior or Guardian 2.0 with some DPS Buffs or Reflects… Ain’t gonna happen (Even though Corrosive Poison Cloud would be so much better with Projectile Negation)…

Necromancer’s fill a weird niche, namely boon-hate, which serves no purpose considering enemies literally spam their boons like D/D Elementalists on steroids… And since the classes’ strength cannot be utilized, the weaknesses the class has (No vigor, good stab income, lack of cleave etc.) become more and more apparennt, especially in the race against the other classes…

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If it were up to me though, I’d make Blood Magic more interesting in the sense of enabling teammates to steal health (PvP and PvE), because this would enable build diversity as one, and gives the Necromancer a unique way of “increasing damage”… Mind you, this is still far from “Solving” the issue that Necromancers have in PvE since they are just miles behind other classes in terms of combat utility…

Then again, the content now is so dropdead boring that it can be completed on any class… You could run a naked Condi Warrior if you feel like it and still complete CM (Done that)

Both mesmers and thieves have better boon hate than necros. So its not even a niche that necros have an advantage in.

Its true that necro doesnt need a rework. But it does need considerable tweaks to improve it in PvE. Mainly less selfish traits. A decent AoE dps weapon. And some useful utility. Also some blocks, projectile defence or stability would help a lot.

Another thing that has been mentioned by me and a few others in the past is a new utility type. Orders. These would provide unique area effects around the necro for a set decent duration. So they could do things like grant allies life steal/condition on hit/dmg boost/endurance regen etc. This is something we probably wont see until anet releases a ton of new utilities for all classes.

spoj.9672:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Some people need to realize that in PvE Necromancers do not need as much as a rework as PvE as a whole needs a rework… I mean, come on… PvE is borked, simple as that…

What most people want is the class to be Warrior or Guardian 2.0 with some DPS Buffs or Reflects… Ain’t gonna happen (Even though Corrosive Poison Cloud would be so much better with Projectile Negation)…

Necromancer’s fill a weird niche, namely boon-hate, which serves no purpose considering enemies literally spam their boons like D/D Elementalists on steroids… And since the classes’ strength cannot be utilized, the weaknesses the class has (No vigor, good stab income, lack of cleave etc.) become more and more apparennt, especially in the race against the other classes…

---

If it were up to me though, I’d make Blood Magic more interesting in the sense of enabling teammates to steal health (PvP and PvE), because this would enable build diversity as one, and gives the Necromancer a unique way of “increasing damage”… Mind you, this is still far from “Solving” the issue that Necromancers have in PvE since they are just miles behind other classes in terms of combat utility…

Then again, the content now is so dropdead boring that it can be completed on any class… You could run a naked Condi Warrior if you feel like it and still complete CM (Done that)

Both mesmers and thieves have better boon hate than necros. So its not even a niche that necros have an advantage in.

Err, English is not my first language, so forgive me for it…

Necromancers do not steal or rip boons, they turn them into Conditions… We all know that globally conditions are just bad in PvE, aside from maybe the Tri-Worm, something that takes (took) a lot of dedication and time to work out…

With Boonhate I meant turning the power of the enemy into their weaknesses, which is actually the only reason to take a Necromancer into competitive play… They turn the Condition inflicted into their power, and make your power (boons) undesirable… In PvE this simply has no effect as effectively Conditions are outclassed by Direct Damage and boon support (sides Weakness in Fractals), which makes it’s only strength in the whole game their greatest flaw in a flawed gametype…

Mind you, I did put an emphasis on “The whole game” since Necromancers without boon-flipping are usually just discount other classes with no mobility or survivability… Though on the other hand, I don’t know how true this is for GWEN in WvWvW

Boon conversion will never be better than low cooldown boon steal or removal in PvE. Even if you improve the content. And especially when the conditions applied when converted can just as easily be applied by other means.

Its a PvP only advantage.

spoj.9672:

Boon conversion will never be better than low cooldown boon steal or removal in PvE. Even if you improve the content. And especially when the conditions applied when converted can just as easily be applied by other means.

Its a PvP only advantage.

Which is indeed a concern, they force to make a playstyle that only works against individuals work for PvE in general…

But you got to wonder why this is so… To me it is simple, there are not enough roles available to a Necromancer that makes them unique… Got condis on you? Get a Guardian… Projectile issues? Thief, Mesmer, Guardian and even Ranger or Engineer to some extend… Need party wide unique buffs (not might) for the party? Warrior or Ranger… Etc.
Necromancers, across all gamemodes, got one or two strengths, both usually used in conjuction with one another, and both failing hard within PvE…

A Necromancer cannot be unique within this sense… Giving them something that functions the same as a role another class had, take reflections, you did not solve the issue, since you now play a discount Guardian… Only, still less usefull…

So when people ask for a buff to Necromancers in PvE, I always wonder, what do you want? I personally would like to see strengths of the class working in conjuction of the gamemode, but we both know it will never happen… So what’s next?

Its simple. If you give necro some of the things i listed. It can now fill the minimum need for some instances. This coupled with its wide range of control conditions, low cooldown no investment CC and decent damage would actually bring it up quite considerably. It probably wouldnt become something you use in records. But people would be less inclined to avoid them and far more willing to use necros in regular runs. Currently im put off playing necro in fractals because the fun does not outweigh the sense of uselessness i feel. That would change with just a bit less selfishness.

Something ive always wanted to try is coupling a necros wells with guardians blind exposure. If only guardian had a few more blasts (could use LH i suppose). The problem is that vuln provided by other classes is enough. And fights dont last long enough in most cases and if they do you are better off refreshing might instead.

Aye, so instead of making them unique you want to patch them up so you won’t feel useless… I understand this really, and I am inclined to agree seeing as how Necromancers are miles behind any other class in terms of utility within “Endgame PvE”

Thing is, and though I agree since I played Necromancer through every imaginable part of the game possible (as with any class), Anet is not going to give Necromancers the sustain they request since they say that the sustain comes from DS+Life-Siphons (hah)… I think it was said a couple of Ready Ups back, though they stated not wanting to give Necromancer acces to stability as well which is considered strange since they already got acces to it with “Foot in the Grave”, though it is not as good as most stability skills… Of course, this all relates to how the class functions within a competitive setting…

Projectile negation has been on anyone’s list really, and mostly discussed with Corrosive Poison… To be fair, I think the only reason they are holding back is because it has a lot of “utility” within the competitive scene already (on point weakness+poison), and as we know, skills will never be split across the board “Because it would be too confusing” -.-’

So yea, my only hope is throwing it on party wide life-siphoning somehow, but as you say it is gonna require a lot of work, and with the steady flow of having one class specific healing skill per 2 years… well, be perpared for the worst…

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Projectile negation has been on anyone’s list really, and mostly discussed with Corrosive Poison… To be fair, I think the only reason they are holding back is because it has a lot of “utility” within the competitive scene already (on point weakness+poison), and as we know, skills will never be split across the board “Because it would be too confusing” -.-’

And yet, nobody takes the skill in PvP…

Problem #1 of Necromancer: DPS

Compare Dagger Necromancer with just Dagger Thief. From simply using autoattack, a Thief can amount to greater overall damage, due to damage modifiers + defense with Endurance Regeneration

Although the tooltip itself for Necromancer shows higher damage, this is a lie because traits modify the damage to much higher amounts on a Thief.

Why this is unbalanced: In addition to having a stronger auto-attack, as well as superior damage negation (endurance regeneration, blinds via pistol offhand), and much superior burst (backstab and heartseeker), the Dagger of a Thief completely outclasses the Dagger of a Necromancer.

Why this is even more of an issue: A Necromancer’s STRONGEST OFFENSIVE OPTION (Dagger) is completely outclassed by another profession’s.

Necromancer does not get much in exchange for less DPS. They get a very weak heal on #2, and on #3 is a short immobilize that, while useful, does not justify use outside very niche areas of the game in PvE.

Necromancer’s highest DPS option is literally a single auto-attack spam, that is inferior in damage and defense to another class.

Granted, while each third strike does grant life force, the nature of the Dagger itself makes it counter-productive to camp death shroud, because trait setups that would involve spamming autoattack on Dagger would also make it not worth using Life Blast in Death Shroud.

So what does Necromancer REALLY get for their measly little bit of Life Force on autoattack? A shadow-step (thief already has it on f1), a fear every 20s (bad in PvE because foes move away from melee range), and a timed AoE immobilize on #5 (waaaaay too high recharge)

Seriously, Necromancer only gets peanuts compared to a Thief’s superior offensive and defensive capabilities.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Projectile negation has been on anyone’s list really, and mostly discussed with Corrosive Poison… To be fair, I think the only reason they are holding back is because it has a lot of “utility” within the competitive scene already (on point weakness+poison), and as we know, skills will never be split across the board “Because it would be too confusing” -.-’

And yet, nobody takes the skill in PvP…

To be fair, I would under certain circumstances…

Most notable one is where I had better sustainability to give either up one of my stunbreaks, or where I did not want to sacrifice my one team-utility and picking it over Corrupt Boon…

It is not bad per se, it is just not on par with the rest of the utilities within a competitive setting…

I suppose I could have deleted “in PvP,” because I don ’t think it gets used anywhere except the end boss of Citadel of Flame path 1.

It’s not that the skill is bad per se, it just doesn’t make the cut on the skill bar.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I suppose I could have deleted “in PvP,” because I don ’t think it gets used anywhere except the end boss of Citadel of Flame path 1.

It’s not that the skill is bad per se, it just doesn’t make the cut on the skill bar.

Haha, well on my off days I slot it for some lazy Weakness on the Cliffside Fractal in a casual run :P

But yea, it is that… It is not bad per se, just not good enough to take…

Problem #2 of Necromancer balance: Weakness

Necromancer gets a grandmaster trait for weakness on crit. Or take a utility skill with HIGH RECHARGE, that WEAKENS YOURSELF. Sure, you can also run Dagger off-hand, but that means sacrificing Focus/Warhorn DPS combo.

Thief has a minor trait for weakness on poison, with steal being able to poison, and dagger auto being able to poison. Sword autoattack also applies weakness. In other words, if you melee as a thief= you can apply weakness.

Warriors get near-perma weakness on autoattack as well… Plus warhorn off-hand that also gives them VIGOR.

While Necromancer can achieve higher overall duration of weakness, they must dedicate themselves using every trait and utility skill possible, whereas it is given to Thief almost by default.

Why is it such a big issue for Necromancer to apply weakness, whereas other classes have such easy access to it? Does no one else see an issue here?

Why is the “attrition”-class, outclassed by others at their supposed niche?

Meh, washing out class identities is rarely beneficial in the long run. It just makes everything feel samey and bland, ultimately leading to a very steady sense of boredom with the class in general.

Rather, change PvE. The problem you face in that effects such as multiple pets or area boon/condition transmutation is rarely needed are hardly necro-specific problems. Rather, they pile up on a single class, but they’re general issues.

Easiest to fix by diversifying PvE. A lot. There simply should be mobs which can only be killed by conditions. Period. Even the most power-built class can change traits / skills to provide some conditions, so this isn’t a problem even in the worst case scenario. In the average case, it’ll mean people have to keep in mind that each room they face needs a completely different approach.
Likewise, bosses which bombard the group from ranged while never stopping, they keep kiting. Good luck with that melee stack. :P

You may want to stop comparing necros to thieves, since a necro with full Life force has 3 times the hit points of a thief. You can’t just cherry pick where necros fall behind thieves and ignore where necros are actually in a better spot. It’s out of context. If the class has issues you shouldn’t need direct comparisons to other skills as a reference. The only time that ever works is comparing hps or dps; when it’s the whole of the class.

People keep saying make condition damage better to make necro better. You do realise that necro is one of the worst condition classes in PvE.

spoj.9672:

People keep saying make condition damage better to make necro better. You do realise that necro is one of the worst condition classes in PvE.

Until you factor Epidemic. Then even if somebody else is better than a necro, the necro is now 5 times as strong as they are. Varies with enemy numbers, though. Only Engineers can come close to the AoE condition applications of necros.

That said, since the Necro’s greatest strength is indeed condition manipulation (ckeanses, transfers, etc.), making that strength more valuable in PvE would help quite a bit. Mordrem are a good step in the right direction.

Cleanses arent a strength either. Transfers are just a slightly more offensive form of cleanse so they can be counted as the same. And i think you are overestimating the value of epidemic even in a future where condition damage is good.

Besides even if its only engi that is better than necro at condi damage. Thats all it needs to be to keep necro out of popularity. Seeing as engi is already decent.

Necros only strength to me is chill access.

I said the strength was “manipulation.” This includes enemies using conditions against the players as well as players using them against enemies. If a PvE area encouraged condition-heavy play as well as used it, Necros would emerge as being very desirable. The reason is because necro condition builds are also very strong against conditions. Engineers and Mesmers (who can out-do Necros on the offense front) have to choose between being good with conditions or being good against them.

This is PvE were talking about. No matter how condition heavy you make an encounter. There will always be ways to counter/avoid it. And you will be in groups. Im sure a guardian can do the job of keeping conditions of the mesmers and engies. Not that either of those classes are completely vulnerable to conditions to begin with.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Stop taking my godkitten profession specific mechanic away from me when I enter PvP and I’ll be happy… That is honestly all I care. Building up Life Force is not easy unless you’re built to do it. Which means we start every match as a cripple until we get at least 20 – 30% LF generated. I’m sorry but no matter how you put it, this is completely unfair to me. Start us off with a minimum of 20% Life Force and I’ll be content. Draining it to 0 is completely stupid and I shouldn’t have to sacrifice minions or staff AA someone a dozen times to use what’s central to my profession.

As for PvE, yes we’re definitely lacking and I’d support a rework. But we’re not incapable of doing PvE we’re just not top tier. If we join a dungeon it’ll go about 1minute slower. It’s not like we can’t finish the dungeon or like it’ll take ten times longer.

How you manage your life force is really not even close to a good excuse to buff necro

Necromancer’s design niche is really soft CC – conditions that reduce incoming damage for itself and allies. It was too strong in PvE boss battles and Necro was far from the only profession that can spam them so Unshakable was introduced, pretty much making the profession irrelevant in PvE.

Meanwhile, Arenanet realized all professions needed better access to conditions and more ways to reduce their impact. In exchange, Necro has had several dps boosts; some not very successful. New content is designed to make sure all professions cannot just ignore conditions like the old content. Even Orr’s Undead were reworked because the area is important to PvE.

Necromancer is not horrible in new PvE content but not exceptional, either, and offers little in old content because the one thing it was designed for was too potent for game balance. It got condition-pressure nerfed, was strengthened in a warrior-like direction but still without group support, saw saw other professions get better at condi-dps, and is now completely unremarkable.

The problem is really the mechanics behind conditions and boons. Rework those, then balance professions.

spoj.9672:

This is PvE were talking about. No matter how condition heavy you make an encounter. There will always be ways to counter/avoid it. And you will be in groups. Im sure a guardian can do the job of keeping conditions of the mesmers and engies. Not that either of those classes are completely vulnerable to conditions to begin with.

Neither Guardians nor Engineers are immune to conditions. Engineers used to have a trait for that, but it got changes.

Anyhow, even then, you can trivially remove this factor in PvE. Trivially. It’s not a matter “can”, it’s a matter of “want” (and dev resources).

As an example, you probably think people would just spam-cleanse, right? Well, make a mob who heals to full any time anyone cleanses a condition (but not on transmuting it to a boon!). Sounds stupid as hell? Sure is. But did it just completely shot down any and all condition cleansing? Yep it did.
So again, it’s absolutely trivial to force players to engage in condition heavy play and worry about stuff. In PvP it’s not, in PvE it is, since you can artificially introduce whatever crazy hard-counter you want.

Carighan.6758:

spoj.9672:

This is PvE were talking about. No matter how condition heavy you make an encounter. There will always be ways to counter/avoid it. And you will be in groups. Im sure a guardian can do the job of keeping conditions of the mesmers and engies. Not that either of those classes are completely vulnerable to conditions to begin with.

Neither Guardians nor Engineers are immune to conditions. Engineers used to have a trait for that, but it got changes.

Anyhow, even then, you can trivially remove this factor in PvE. Trivially. It’s not a matter “can”, it’s a matter of “want” (and dev resources).

As an example, you probably think people would just spam-cleanse, right? Well, make a mob who heals to full any time anyone cleanses a condition (but not on transmuting it to a boon!). Sounds stupid as hell? Sure is. But did it just completely shot down any and all condition cleansing? Yep it did.
So again, it’s absolutely trivial to force players to engage in condition heavy play and worry about stuff. In PvP it’s not, in PvE it is, since you can artificially introduce whatever crazy hard-counter you want.

Forcing mechanics that only one class can do is not something you should encourage or something anet will do. Even if it means necro suddenly becomes required because of it.

Besides the suggestion you made. Cleanse and then interrupt the heal? Problem solved. No need to take a bad class.

Uh, I never said the heal is preventable? It’s not a casted effect, the mob just heals the moment you cleanse a condition.
As more than necromancers can do debuff transmutation, it’s not a single-class effect, either.

Plus you know, it was intended as an intentionally overdone example to illustrate just how trivial it would be (in general) to force specific tactics to no longer be valid (or be valid) in PvE. You got absolute freedom as there’s no player controlling the mob-side, it’s very easy to make players do whatever you want them to do as a dev. If you would generate gold slowly by walking in circles, you can bet LA’s centre would look really weird really soon.

Necro’s suffer from the game never engaging the mechanics they excel in. This happens to all classes, but to varying degrees due to which mechanics are currently challenged by the game and which are not. Necros happen to be on the receiving end because all their mechanics are in the rubbish pile in PvE. The mechanics themselves however aren’t bad at all – they’re just never used.

Carighan.6758:

Necro’s suffer from the game never engaging the mechanics they excel in. This happens to all classes, but to varying degrees due to which mechanics are currently challenged by the game and which are not. Necros happen to be on the receiving end because all their mechanics are in the rubbish pile in PvE. The mechanics themselves however aren’t bad at all – they’re just never used.

Not quite true. The correct thing to say is that necro doesnt have any unique mechanics.

spoj.9672:

Not quite true. The correct thing to say is that necro doesnt have any unique mechanics.

Never said that. But AFAIK, other than their class mechanic no class has unique mechanics, do they?

OP sounds that as if giving Necro a high super power burst on 2 sec cd will make everyone want them in groups for pve dungeons and fractals.

They say that power necro is bad?
Leave them alone, find someone else.
I personally run dungeons with necros and engineers.

Do we struggle?
Nope.

Carighan.6758:

spoj.9672:

Not quite true. The correct thing to say is that necro doesnt have any unique mechanics.

Never said that. But AFAIK, other than their class mechanic no class has unique mechanics, do they?

err…
warri: unique banner buffs
ele: conjuring weapons for allies / healing mist
ranger: spotter (rest of other classes’ aoe-stat-buffs goes here)
mesmer: portal
engi: up to 5 weaponsets without swap-cd

and these are just a few…
note: all these are class-unique effects / skills / buffs that can not be achieved by builds from other classes, but are not part of the F1-F4 class-mechanics…
There is actually a lot that makes classes unique, appart from just their F1-4 mechanics.

This is also why people constantly point out that it makes no sense whatsoever to directly compare a trait / ability with a similar one from another class.
The impact such a change would have on the class, within its unique mechanics, is simply not the same, therefore (f.e.) asking to nerf Incendiary Powder (Engi), because Dhuumfire got nerfed (Necro) simply makes no sense whatsoever.

Regardless, on the original statement:
Necro is as unique as every other class as well, the only difference is that it brings nothing unique to a PvE group. This is not necessarily a bad thing since the raw dps of necros is definitively not “horrible”. They simply not make it more convenient for other classes to be around and their lack of blast-finishers also contributes to the general selfishness of necro PvE builds. They do have the potential to cap vulnerability, and therefore increase the group dps by 25%, but in reality that is already done by 2 warris or a single engi (which both pack extreme loads of group-support), which – sadly – renders the ability of vuln. capping on necro as kinda pointless.
However, in WvW and PvP the condi-play and control of the necromancer is absolutely fine and therefore they have a rightfully strong place in any zerg or tPvP group.

Ah, forgot about some, true. Portal isn’t 100% unique (Necro has a self-portal as does Thief), Ele weapons are somewhat unique if you ignore that environment weapons litter the game but they’re still the only class-based non-racial source, so yeah.
The rest is stat buffs. If that is “unique”, then so is Might. :P

The thing is more what you say in the last paragraph. Plenty things about the Necro are strong as in “the class is adept at this”, yet it is never challenged in PvE. And if I use your perspective on unique then yes, tons is unique, too (I very much agree that you cannot compare skills cross-class unless you look at the entire class).

To be fair, even the strength of a Necromancer (Condition and Boon manipulation) only works in regard to small scaled fight – and even then it is a far stretch from the other options you got…

Got enemies that have boons on them that don’t get spammed? Null Field is your friend, it even removes your Conditions…
In that respect, got conditions on you? Why bother transferring them if you can cleanse them with a good Guardian, and a little help of your Mesmer or Engineer friend (Yes, the PvE Meta builds can very much run Elixir Gun)…

The only way a Necromancer would shine if you got a dungeon in which you have to split your group, and there is a mob that is dangerous with boons, and is considerably weaker with conditions on itself… The Mob also needs to be extremely suspicable to soft CC and then you got a specific encounter in which a Necromancer shines – but this is creating content for classes specifically which this game does not try to do…

I am sorry to say, but the Necromancer lacks any real role, and giving it other options will not help the class, but rather make them on par by giving it the same tools to toy around with (A.k.a discount other classes)… The class is too heavily designed around a competitive enviroment with no general consent of how it should function within PvE – Granted, PvE is extremely shallow (challenging sometimes, but it lacks true depth), but even trying to improve it will, as Spoj explained, not enable the Necromancer to shine, but rather make other classes run different setups…

I have personally given up on caring about PvE and how classes function within, as my two most played classes are either dropdead boring (Warrior) or extremely subpar (Necromancer)… Only true benefit I have with running the latter is my ability to survive longer than most people do, but this has less to do with the class and more to do with my capabilities when playing PvE, as I can dream most encounters…

My favourite solution if you want something truly unique would be to centre it around what is already the unique mechanic of the Necro: Shroud.

Make it completely outclass everyone else in the soaking department. By a substantial margin, too. Yes, this could – or rather, would – unbalance smallscale PvP, couldn’t care any less personally, if that gets axed off in the process then all the better, yay, dev progress!
The point of a Necromancer would then be a mix of group anchor (what you typically associate with plate classes) and recovery point. Able to rezz people because they can outlast any damage coming their way so long as they got a way to supply themselves with Life Force in-between.

Roe.3679:

You may want to stop comparing necros to thieves, since a necro with full Life force has 3 times the hit points of a thief.

Which does not help much because the thief can disengage at will because of the stupid way stealth works in this game. Good luck on resetting a fight with a necro

When i was saying unique i was thinking more along the lines of specialties.

Warrior – banners, mobility, solo dmg
Guard – group stab, aegis and various other defence
Thief – godly mobility and group stealth
Ranger – spotter, spirits
Engi – Vuln bot, Jack of all trades
Ele – Highest damage, conjures, might + fury + swiftness stacking
Mesmer – Portal, Permanent reflects
Necro – ?

Now these specialties all give the classes a reason to be picked. Some people have claimed that necro has vuln and it has a sort of portal. You shouldnt exaggerate with those examples. Yes its true necro can cap vuln. But it quickly falls off (especially on bosses) and it cannot be maintained. Engi has an advantage for pure vuln bot because it stacks it just as fast, maintains it and has higher damage. And comparing spectral walk/flesh wurm to portal is laughable. The whole specialty of portal is that its a group teleport.

All classes are picked in records for these reasons. The exceptions are ranger and engi. There often isnt enough space in the group for them. Vuln bot isnt needed as much due to glyph of storms. And an extra ele with icebow is better than a ranger. Even so both ranger and engi are still very strong picks for casual runs. Necro doesnt even have the option of being good for casual runs. It feels like a jack of all trades class without all the cards. Basically the things it does are quite a nice selection but they are all inferior to other options and the range of mechanics available is way more limited than that of an engi.

PS. I am mainly talking about PvE.

Necromancer is a Control class.
May it be cripple, chill, immobilize or fear.

Groups priority necromancers above all other classes only because Necromancer can disable them.
Even 1 sec of being not able to control your character(fear) or having limited mobility can be deadly in group clash. And Necromancer on top of that can spam it.