Guild Wars 2

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

It is fine them having High health, High Armor or High Regen, Having them ALL on a class that has so many skills that can make them immune to damage as well as STILL being able to deal damage is what is wrong.

Then you get into the insane broken mobility they have, the insane CC ability that the Hammer has. there is a reason why there are Warrior only dungeon speed runs and everything They are best in PvE, Best in WvW both Solo and in Zergs they are just to strong at every aspect.

No it’s not.

First, unless Arenanet does a 180 and gives Warriors protection, high health and high regen need to go together, otherwise you’re denying the class of any sustain. Before the Warrior heals were buffed warriors had a lot of burst resistance thanks to their high health but had a lot of trouble regenerating any health lost, and as a consequence they had no regen and had no way to tank or to bunker. For a warrior class design, having no sustain was pathetic.

Second, the “high armor” of soldier classes is something like +400 more armor at level 80 which is nothing. Warriors with high armor have invested into toughness gear and the Defense trait line, which means that their power and/or crit are kitten.

Third, the Warriors’ damage immunes come in an amazing number of three, of which one uses the healing slot and is thus uncompatible with the supposedly overpowered warrior heals. Shield Stance is admittedly the best block in the game but you can’t do anything else while blocking and it forces you to keep a shield on one of your sets so it has its drawbacks. Endure Pain (and its traited version) is vulnerable to conditions and everyone knows that, so I wouldn’t exactly call that a damage immune, especially not in a game stuck on a permanent condi meta… Don’t get me wrong Endure Pain is amazing, but comparing that to invuls, blocks or evades to make a point would be dishonest.

Sounds like you have a problem with Warriors being naturally tanky but seriously since when are fighters/warriors/knights squishy in RPGs? The trinity may be gone but that doesn’t mean that all classes should have the same strengths and weaknesses before traits, and if there’s any strength you’d expect a design for a Warrior class to have, it’s natural survivability. Besides, before Healing Signet was buffed, one post out of 10 in the Warrior forums was something like “How do I make a tanky warrior?”, (and you’d invariably get a “Reroll guard” answer within the first 3 posts) so don’t think I’m the only one who think warriors should be naturally a bit tanky. A lot of players want their Warriors to be that way.

Now, whether Warriors do too much damage while having so much health, or whether they have too much survival when they are in Berserker gear is a completely different matter. Personally, I think that Healing Signet’s base healing should be reduced by 15% or 20% instead of 8%, but the scaling on Healing Power should be doubled. So the regen of glass-cannon Warriors would be less outrageous, and full defense/support warriors with Cleric or Shaman gear would get to keep a very good Healing Signet. My only problem with that is that PVT would get screwed on that deal…

As for CC… the thing is that a damage-focused Warrior can CC a squishy and one-shot it without you being able to do anything about it, but on the other hand a defense Warrior has pathetic damage, and CC and conditions are the only thing you can do to avoid the opponents and force them to care about you. Seriously, my Warrior did 800 with her Earthshaker when she was full-defense, and that was before the nerf… (I don’t even want to think how laughably weak this thing would be now.) If it didn’t have CC I would be literally ignored by other player… And as a defense Warrior I was already getting ignored by PvE players because I wasn’t full-zerk…

I am going to comment on Mesmers being brought down from mid-tier.

Mesmers (in PvP) are already weak to conditions. They have very little condi clear, outside of Null Field. It’s okay for them to have a weakness, or even a hard counter, but lowering their health that equal to the thief and guardian would make them extremely vulnerable to condition damage. The other classes in this tier have their ways to deal with it just fine.

However, Elementalist, (in PvP) should definitely have its base health brought up to mid tier, equal to engis and rangers. It seems everyone agrees to that point but. Warriors have a way too deal with every application of damage in the game. Why does their health need to be so high as well? I agree that warriors need their health dropped and eles need theirs raised.

18k -Necromancer
15k- Mesmer , Warrior, Ranger , Engineer, Elementalist
10k- Thief , Guardian

Dalanor.5387:

3 pages and nobody came up with EHP? Goood troll bait, gooooood.
….

EHP is over this community’s head, trust me… They only see what’s in front of them. And for now that will do… That term will just confuse them.
The problem that will become if people start thinking about this term would be the same problem as trying to find out DPS in this game… (never mind EDPS either) And at this point there’s no real (magical website) to “correctly” measure/quantify it either.

i think anyone would agree that even going to EHP, somw classes just die way easier unless they gear and trait everything defensive.

the point of bringing base pools closer together is to free up more builds, both gear and trait choices.

As much as I would agree with this on some levels. there is a problem that HP alone doesn’t combat. That is the underlying theme of this game in general. To see this one only needs to look at Guild Wars 1 vs Guild Wars 2.

We had a dedicated healer role. This allowed for balance in other classes. The Elemenetalist in Guild Wars 2 is a pale imitation of what we had in the first game. Why? Its not really because of the base health, it is instead because Guild Wars 2 is not a group based game.

In Guild Wars 2 every job needed to be able to wander PvE on their own. So that means everyone needed some kind of healing skill. Granted some skills have better ones then others.

I remember playing an Air elementalist in the original Guild Wars and spiking everything and one down in PvP. This was balanced cause if that warrior I just spiked got on top of me, they were gonna rip me apart.

Changing Base HP would possibility help. But we need alot more to balance out things.

Zero Day.2594:

The problem that will become if people start thinking about this term would be the same problem as trying to find out DPS in this game… (never mind EDPS either) And at this point there’s no real (magical website) to “correctly” measure/quantify it either.

Also, how do you factor dodging into EHP?

18k necro
17k warrior
16k mesmer, ranger , engineer, elementalist
15k theif, guardian

also make POWER, precision,vitality

EoNxBoNx.9213:

I am going to comment on Mesmers being brought down from mid-tier.

Mesmers (in PvP) are already weak to conditions. They have very little condi clear, outside of Null Field. It’s okay for them to have a weakness, or even a hard counter, but lowering their health that equal to the thief and guardian would make them extremely vulnerable to condition damage. The other classes in this tier have their ways to deal with it just fine.

However, Elementalist, (in PvP) should definitely have its base health brought up to mid tier, equal to engis and rangers. It seems everyone agrees to that point but. Warriors have a way too deal with every application of damage in the game. Why does their health need to be so high as well? I agree that warriors need their health dropped and eles need theirs raised.

Yeah their only real issue is with conditions. Though that being said it is always fun to see a Necro burst Signet of Spite onto a clone. I do think they need proper access to condition removal, i am not talking huge amounts but reasonable access – maybe a master trait that removes 2-3 conditions on stealth or something

Another thing i would like to see, when a Clone that has conditions on it from someone just bursting in hope, if that clone dies next to someone when they explode the conditions have say 50% chance to spread to nearby targets or something.

As for Ele, i totally agree. Currently we are forced into going defensive thanks to the fact that if we don’t we will die FAST.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

18k -Necromancer
15k- Mesmer , Warrior, Ranger , Engineer, Elementalist
10k- Thief , Guardian

Yeah i could go for that, seems a lot more balanced. Necromancer unless given actual DEFENSIVE skills NEEDS to have such high health.

Carighan.6758:

Zero Day.2594:

The problem that will become if people start thinking about this term would be the same problem as trying to find out DPS in this game… (never mind EDPS either) And at this point there’s no real (magical website) to “correctly” measure/quantify it either.

Also, how do you factor dodging into EHP?

This is the tricky part. Utilities and traits alters (?) your defense in such a huge amount, it makes pure hp nearly irrevelant. As i said in my previous post, you just press a button with a guardian and you WILL negate basiclly infinte amount of damage for one hit, thus their low hp doesn’t even matter, they make it balanced out with everything else they have. Or think about on crit vigor traits, which allows you to dodge every 2.5 second. Oh well, it will get nerfed in the future on more classes, but i hope you get it what i mean.
Necro on the other hand has high hp, because the lack of tools that keeps their hp high. So they pop DS to get some time until the heal is up (mind you, necro is one of the few classes that needs to manage resources), rotate wells for protection or use fear and soft control to avoid damage and so on.
The only mechanic that handled this issue is Agony in pve, so your (e)hp don’t matter, you won’t have any advantage as a high hp character compared to low hp chars.

ps: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/ works very well btw
ps2: wtb dps meter

This is mainly an Elementalist issue.

I think it’s odd that starting stats for stats like power/attack are equal across all classes, yet depending on the class you get bigger health pool and armour as a base.

Yet all classes have ranged dps access. If warriors were subject to not having a viable ranged option or could actually be kited then yes, give them more health/armour, but they do have access to great viable great ranged dps on a build which serves both melee as well. They have the best mobility and gap closers in the game as well.

How is the low health pool of the elementalist explained? They have dagger/dagger, which is melee? They’re not compensated by being given bigger power stats to offset the lack of hitpoints and there’s no such thing as mana pools, so they can’t cast more spells more frequently.

The strongest move in d/d (firegrab), is on a 45 second timer and requires the target to be alight, is weaker than level 3 eviscerate, a move which requires the adrenal bar to be full, which let’s face it, always is due to adrenal mechanics, and available every 7 seconds.

Or an earthshaker, an aoe 2 sec stun which hits for 4k+ on average still and is up every 7 seconds, yet an elementalists earthquake is on a 45 sec timer!

The disparities are pretty enormous. Either the elementalists base power/damage value of abilities should be enhanced to compensate for the lack of hitpoints, cast times should be reduced on some of the abilities or healthpools should be increased.

phaeris.7604:

How is the low health pool of the elementalist explained.

High damage.

Dalanor.5387:

phaeris.7604:

How is the low health pool of the elementalist explained.

High damage.

But every class can pretty much spec for high damage as well.

Nope, starting power stats are exactly the same for all classes.

They have no more damage than anyone else can attain.

phaeris.7604:

Nope, starting power stats are exactly the same for all classes.

They have no more damage than anyone else can attain.

Except for the fact that the class has unique mechanics that allow it to output more dps than any other class.
Just saying.

I think Warrior health is too high and Guardian health is too low.

I don’t believe that the reasons orignally stated for the difference between warrior and guardian hitpoints are still true:

Warrior Wiki page

However, to make up for the lack of guardian’s healing abilities, warrior has much higher base health.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warrior

Guardian wiki page

Virtues have been said to help balance the guardian; for example, they have a lower base health than the warrior profession but compensate for this with their higher health regeneration granted by Virtue of Resolve

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guardian

And check the original reference from an AreneNet employee:

The guardian has way less health than a warrior, but he has a fast hit point regeneration. So deciding when to grant the “Resolve” virtue to your allies becomes a very tactical decision.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/11088-guardian-tank-or-warrior-tank/page__st__60#entry527726

Sorry if this was already mentioned earlier – I didn’t read the entire thread.

I only play one character, a Guardian with over 2000 hours played since headstart – however I stopped playing just before The Nightmare Within patch.

Harper.4173:

Except for the fact that the class has unique mechanics that allow it to output more dps than any other class.
Just saying.

Heh.

There’s a slight difference between being able to output big dps when you have 11k hp and 1890 armour and being able to output big dps when you have 22k hp and 3k armour. dead dps=no dps.

This is what you seem to forget, combat doesn’t occur in a vacuum.

No, there’s no slight difference because you haven’t compared apples to apples. Ele and Warrior do not put out high dps the same way or from the same locations.

phaeris.7604:

Nope, starting power stats are exactly the same for all classes.

They have no more damage than anyone else can attain.

Can i laugh at this furiously?

Dalanor.5387:

phaeris.7604:

How is the low health pool of the elementalist explained.

High damage.

The High damage that has been nerfed, nerfed and nerfs some more away. Now you have to go full zerker, make a single mistake and you are dead. Hell even without making mistakes you are pretty much dead to any semi decent thief.

At the beginning when they were kind of like a Mage version of Thief – Low health, insane burst it was reasonable they had low health – Now? Not so much.

Harper.4173:

phaeris.7604:

Nope, starting power stats are exactly the same for all classes.

They have no more damage than anyone else can attain.

Except for the fact that the class has unique mechanics that allow it to output more dps than any other class.
Just saying.

Yeah that if ANY timing is wrong, 1 failed dodge and they would be melted in seconds in Zerker gear.

Harper.4173:

phaeris.7604:

Nope, starting power stats are exactly the same for all classes.

They have no more damage than anyone else can attain.

Except for the fact that the class has unique mechanics that allow it to output more dps than any other class.
Just saying.

Depends very much on the player maintaining a tight high APM rotation tho.

If said player can’t, a zerker warrior is likely do as much DPS and be sturdier.

Seriously, the elementalist have as many skills as a max level build in Rift. But in Rift all skills can be visible at all times via multiple skill bars, making timing easier. Never mind the ability to stack multiple skills on a single bar for ease of rotation.

The attunements mechanic, while interesting in concept, is at present a UX nightmare because 3/4 of the cooldowns are hidden from view at any one moment.

Sometimes i wonder if ANet went out of their way to make the UX combersome in a misguided attempt at “promoting skill”.