Guild Wars 2

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I think you guys are neglecting the cumulative effect of heals and boons, as well as basic cooperation and that there is more active defense than just dodging.

Though I classify a lot of heals and boons as active defense, a big difference with heals is that they are finite in the damage that they mitigate. This limited effectiveness is aided by 3 additional factors:

Higher health (healing capacitance)
Higher toughness + protection/weakness (heal efficiency)
Additional heals from party members

The third is the most important one. Without the additional healing of extra party members, the limited damage removal from heals isn’t sufficient. It is for this reason that, in dungeon pug runs and group events, Soldiers and Clerics go down all the time, even when paired with each other. When the players split and range at a distance, they cut each other off from their heals, and this causes them to go down. Or, if they don’t properly time their heals or boon application, damage received overwhelms them and they die. When paired with non-healing members, they also suffer from this issue.

So, while the ability to facetank damage and heal it away only works when done collectively, the mitigation from non-healing active defenses works individually and regardless of group composition. This makes the former a special circumstance, and the latter the norm.

A really crappy facetank team who can’t stack and runs about like headless chickens and can’t sync heal does badly? Well I never. Oddly enough a really bad dps team which runs about, tries to range and doesn’t sync it’s skills also dies on it’s backside.

Oddly enough though, that facetank team has the abilty to decide to actively dodge/mitigate damage if things go pear shaped. Does a dps team have the option to perma face tank if they muck up their dps/dodges? Nope.

Your build is your weapons, utility skills and your traits.
Your gear is simply a reflection of how much damage you anticipate taking during whatever content you’re running.
Therefore Zerker gear does not “nullify” any “variety” or any “builds.” Builds are independent of gear, you can run a dps build in Soldier’s gear or a support build in Zerker gear.
If Zerker is optimal for PVE content that is because of players anticipating that they will not take significant damage during the PVE content and not some feature of Zerker.

After 13 pages I am still not seeing how any of this is a problem.

Players who play well are rewarded by being able to surrender defense for more offense.

Players who don’t play as well can still sacrifice offense to make up for their lack of ability.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Your build is your weapons, utility skills and your traits.
Your gear is simply a reflection of how much damage you anticipate taking during whatever content you’re running.
Therefore Zerker gear does not “nullify” any “variety” or any “builds.” Builds are independent of gear, you can run a dps build in Soldier’s gear or a support build in Zerker gear.
If Zerker is optimal for PVE content that is because of players anticipating that they will not take significant damage during the PVE content and not some feature of Zerker.

You must be banging your head against a wall with how many times you’ve tried to explain this.

Sorin.4310:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Your build is your weapons, utility skills and your traits.
Your gear is simply a reflection of how much damage you anticipate taking during whatever content you’re running.
Therefore Zerker gear does not “nullify” any “variety” or any “builds.” Builds are independent of gear, you can run a dps build in Soldier’s gear or a support build in Zerker gear.
If Zerker is optimal for PVE content that is because of players anticipating that they will not take significant damage during the PVE content and not some feature of Zerker.

You must be banging your head against a wall with how many times you’ve tried to explain this.

Im banging my head against the wall because noone is taking notice of it. Its so true. The voice of reason is always ignored.

Ahlen.7591:

After 13 pages I am still not seeing how any of this is a problem.

Players who play well are rewarded by being able to surrender defense for more offense.

Players who don’t play as well can still sacrifice offense to make up for their lack of ability.

Bad players, or players simply unwilling to spec to the maximum/most efficient set up are crying because those that can/will are doing some pve stuff a bit quicker than they are.

That’s about the gist of it.

When zerk is nerfed, and the players who actually bother to look for the most efficient group comp find the new meta. Said bads will simply start crying about the new meta and the cycle will repeat itself. Whilst those running said meta lose all their ascended gear no doubt.

Running something else then zerker doesnt mean behing bad. This belief is the result of Zerker build doing so much damage that it makes everything else look useless. The only smart answer to this should be a direct cut at their critical damage or making them way less able to survive then before. Nerfing glass cannon will not likely result in a single meta for each class but in multiple one (lots of build around there that deals good damage without relying on a full damage build or on critical damage in the first place yet are regarded as bad because they dont deal as much damage as zerk) and they wont all revolve around raw critical damage.

Is that ranger who runs rampager in a condition build bad? no hes just doing less damage because he runs condition and so is that sword warrior running bleed who can still pull his weight and that minion master necro who dont deal as much damage but support the team with an effective meat shield.

Fenrir.3609:

Ahlen.7591:

After 13 pages I am still not seeing how any of this is a problem.

Players who play well are rewarded by being able to surrender defense for more offense.

Players who don’t play as well can still sacrifice offense to make up for their lack of ability.

Bad players, or players simply unwilling to spec to the maximum/most efficient set up are crying because those that can/will are doing some pve stuff a bit quicker than they are.

That’s about the gist of it.

When zerk is nerfed, and the players who actually bother to look for the most efficient group comp find the new meta. Said bads will simply start crying about the new meta and the cycle will repeat itself. Whilst those running said meta lose all their ascended gear no doubt.

It’s more of the bad players who spec/gear for min/max without knowing how the rest of the group is supposed to work together which I am more afraid of. I’m sure most of us have experienced the occasional PUG where certain players only know how to do one thing and refuse to adapt accordingly because they are following verbatim what they read from a forum guide.

Shadoekin.3928:

Fenrir.3609:

Ahlen.7591:

After 13 pages I am still not seeing how any of this is a problem.

Players who play well are rewarded by being able to surrender defense for more offense.

Players who don’t play as well can still sacrifice offense to make up for their lack of ability.

Bad players, or players simply unwilling to spec to the maximum/most efficient set up are crying because those that can/will are doing some pve stuff a bit quicker than they are.

That’s about the gist of it.

When zerk is nerfed, and the players who actually bother to look for the most efficient group comp find the new meta. Said bads will simply start crying about the new meta and the cycle will repeat itself. Whilst those running said meta lose all their ascended gear no doubt.

It’s more of the bad players who spec/gear for min/max without knowing how the rest of the group is supposed to work together which I am more afraid of. I’m sure most of us have experienced the occasional PUG where certain players only know how to do one thing and refuse to adapt accordingly because they are following verbatim what they read from a forum guide.

Well I mean, aside from higher level fractals, all the PVE content in this game can be pretty easily completed by 2 competent people and 3 hanger-ons.

There are so many good suggestions provided here. GW2 is the first MMO I kept playing, and I hope something gets done about the current state of affairs. I like my engi and my necro, and both are good classes, it’s just that others seem to do better in the current environment.

Will the current playerbase always try to exploit any ‘fix’ given for a problem? At least logging in still feels fun to me and I keep my hopes up.

Engineers can fit the meta well. Necromancers need just some support and cleave dmg. That can be easily fixed and it is not a berserkers problem.

Voltaire.5824:

There are so many good suggestions provided here. GW2 is the first MMO I kept playing, and I hope something gets done about the current state of affairs. I like my engi and my necro, and both are good classes, it’s just that others seem to do better in the current environment.

Will the current playerbase always try to exploit any ‘fix’ given for a problem? At least logging in still feels fun to me and I keep my hopes up.

Necro which was/is a beast in spvp, is good in WvW and can do all the pve content? Does it really matter that some group going lol zerk warriors with a mes/guard can blitz some fractals or a dungeon path faster than you can?

Does it really put you off logging in knowing there is a group of zerkers out there doing CoF 1 quicker than you can?

If so, pitty those same zerkers who get stomped on in the other two major pillars of the game (W3 and spvp) in thich PVT/bunkers and condi is king.

EDIT: I didn’t mean to sound harsh there with you in particular. Just fed up with the debate so please don’t take it personally.

Ahlen.7591:

Well I mean, aside from higher level fractals, all the PVE content in this game can be pretty easily completed by 2 competent people and 3 hanger-ons.

I agree that with such a group, all PVE content in the game can probably be completed, if you do not expect a flawless execution or a speed run. But you can sometimes get into groups where really fast runs like COF1 or SE1 can end up taking half an hour to complete because certain players don’t want to change their equipped skills for that all important reflect or blind and instead have multiple signets.

It makes you never want to open an instance just in case you end up with one of these people and realize u are better off switching to another character to make the group work.

Bad players will be bad even if they zerk…they just seem to be good in some groups if they have people to mitigate for them. The worst part is they don’t realize it and assume they rock cos they are dishing out tens of thousands of damage with their burst.

The risk in the zerker meta sometimes has nothing to do with yourself, but more of what other people are wearing.

Norjena.5172:

Engineers can fit the meta well. Necromancers need just some support and cleave dmg. That can be easily fixed and it is not a berserkers problem.

Imagine how big an Asuran necro’s dagger must be if it was able to cleave! It’s definitely sad that the majority of a necro’s aoe abilities are either only on the staff and piercing, or through utilities.

Enfeebling Blood would be more awesome if the base cooldown was 20 seconds instead of 25.

Shadoekin.3928:

Imagine how big an Asuran necro’s dagger must be if it was able to cleave!

Let the Charr/Norn use the asura as a mace, the ears are long enough!

What is the purpose of this game? TO TAKE DOWN MOBS AS FAST AS YOU CAN. The strongest defense is a strong offense. Even if they nerfed DPS builds, it will still be the choice since the mechanics have not changed. It won’t help buffing the other stats like toughness or healing if there is no need for it. There has to be a bigger penalty for being a glass cannon. Like an un-dodgeable AOE insta-kill if you have less than a set number of armor points for a class. Hope Anet is listening, they are not gonna get off easy on this one.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

#11: Enemy groups have to be built to kill you. A random group with random abilities doesn’t do anything. An enemy group with more dedicated roles (such as a debuffer, a ranged attacker, and a stunner) that follow a more coordinated behavior sets means a world of difference between mindless enemies and a legitimate threat.

Enemies need diversity in their attacks. I’ve already seen good examples of this with Aetherblades, and in Orr. Enemies with endless channels, enemies that focus on debuffing and stunning, enemies that focus on buffing, stuff like that. It should be the standard, not the exception like it is now.

This is exactly what I would love to see! They did this in Gw1 at some places in the later updates. The Purity enemy groupes I felt where really well designed, they had skills that helped eachother and did damage in different ways, or even the White Mantle in War in Kryta.

The same can be seen with the Molten Alliance mobs, Aetherblades and Scarlets Clockwork minions. And as Blood Red mentions in Orr.

But this would make most sense for dungeons, or places designed to be hard. All the other suggestions would be great for the solo mobs roaming around areas to fill the map.

I know you can do it Anet! This would improve it alot!

This is a tricky situation. I hope they handle this wisely and adjust weak stats upwards instead of nerfing the DPS game.

I keep seeing the same post from angry players complaining about the DPS dominance. It seems most of these folks have never ventured outside P1 CoF or AC.

Having been in some exquisitely horrible PuGs before, I know that whatever is done to nerf DPS or even buff the damage dealt by enemies will hurt inexperienced players far more than it will harm the folks who regularly speed clear these dungeons.

Now to clarify, I don’t mean ‘z3rk0r guud. kasu4l bad’. I mean that inexperienced players as a whole will suffer. Excluding folks who play support roles because they enjoy them, I think most do because it helps them stay alive. Without DPS players, these sorts of groups will take even longer to complete content. Full zerk teams who run AC and CoF exclusively but lack understanding of the game past ‘where to stand and what to hit’ will also suffer greatly.

The trend is that inexperienced players will suffer the most. Experienced and good players, regardless of gear will bounce back fairly quickly I’m sure. To what end though? Speed clears will still be faster and the divide between ‘speeds’ and bad ‘pugs’ will be even greater.

Folks will still be ticked off that there are good players blazing through content.

Chris RJ.1843:

This is a tricky situation. I hope they handle this wisely and adjust weak stats upwards instead of nerfing the DPS game.

I keep seeing the same post from angry players complaining about the DPS dominance. It seems most of these folks have never ventured outside P1 CoF or AC.

Having been in some exquisitely horrible PuGs before, I know that whatever is done to nerf DPS or even buff the damage dealt by enemies will hurt inexperienced players far more than it will harm the folks who regularly speed clear these dungeons.

Now to clarify, I don’t mean ‘z3rk0r guud. kasu4l bad’. I mean that inexperienced players as a whole will suffer. Excluding folks who play support roles because they enjoy them, I think most do because it helps them stay alive. Without DPS players, these sorts of groups will take even longer to complete content. Full zerk teams who run AC and CoF exclusively but lack understanding of the game past ‘where to stand and what to hit’ will also suffer greatly.

The trend is that inexperienced players will suffer the most. Experienced and good players, regardless of gear will bounce back fairly quickly I’m sure. To what end though? Speed clears will still be faster and the divide between ‘speeds’ and bad ‘pugs’ will be even greater.

Folks will still be ticked off that there are good players blazing through content.

Which is why within weeks (probably days) of any change to the perceived zerk meta, we will see the same players crying about how unfair the new optimal meta is, and how terrible it is that the old zerker speed run groups are now doing the content faster than them in the new condi/clerics/whatever optimal group set up.

“Looking for 4 dire necros and 1 clerics guard, gear check, experienced only”.

To make one thing clear: they cannot simply remove the condition cap.

It’s reason for being there has less to do with balance, and is much more of a technological limitation. This has been pointed out repeatedly by the devs in the past.

Conditions and boons are much more complicated code than they appear, and running too many stacks at one time across a map would bog the servers down and make the game nigh unplayable.

Removing the condition cap altogether just isn’t feasible. What they might be able to do is scale the cap according to unit.

Trash mobs can make do with a very low cap, since they don’t survive long enough to accrue many conditions in the first place. Replace their per-condition caps entirely with a single cap such as “25 stacks total, between all conditions,” and players shouldn’t even notice the change. Veterans would have a bit more, and upward from there. On higher tier foes, the per-condition cap can remain in place to encourage a balanced spread of multiple conditions.

This shift would leave room for plenty of stacks on champions and world bosses.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Your build is your weapons, utility skills and your traits.
Your gear is simply a reflection of how much damage you anticipate taking during whatever content you’re running.
Therefore Zerker gear does not “nullify” any “variety” or any “builds.” Builds are independent of gear, you can run a dps build in Soldier’s gear or a support build in Zerker gear.
If Zerker is optimal for PVE content that is because of players anticipating that they will not take significant damage during the PVE content and not some feature of Zerker.

That’s the issue at hand. It’s too easy to avoid damage altogether. It’s not an issue with zerker gear, because you can avoid nearly all damage regardless of the gear you’re in. It’s a problem with the AI being poorly designed and far too easy to take advantage of, and THAT is what needs to be reworked.

Gulesave.5073:

To make one thing clear: they cannot simply remove the condition cap.

It’s reason for being there has less to do with balance, and is much more of a technological limitation. This has been pointed out repeatedly by the devs in the past.

Conditions and boons are much more complicated code than they appear, and running too many stacks at one time across a map would bog the servers down and make the game nigh unplayable.

Removing the condition cap altogether just isn’t feasible. What they might be able to do is scale the cap according to unit.

Trash mobs can make do with a very low cap, since they don’t survive long enough to accrue many conditions in the first place. Replace their per-condition caps entirely with a single cap such as “25 stacks total, between all conditions,” and players shouldn’t even notice the change. Veterans would have a bit more, and upward from there. On higher tier foes, the per-condition cap can remain in place to encourage a balanced spread of multiple conditions.

This shift would leave room for plenty of stacks on champions and world bosses.

Another way to help make the cap less an issue is to tweak the stack amounts either by duration or magnitude; but pare down either the duration or number of stacks handed out accordingly.

For example; instead of dealing 5 bleed stacks at .05 coefficient, instead deal one bleed stack at .25.

Or, instead of a 10 second bleed stack at .05, replace with a 5 second one at .10.

Fewer stacks output to get the same damage means more latitude for multiple condition users in a group, as does shorter duration but more intense bleeds, since it becomes harder to max out the cap of 25 as often.

Overkillengine.6084:

Another way to help make the cap less an issue is to tweak the stack amounts either by duration or magnitude; but pare down either the duration or number of stacks handed out accordingly.

For example; instead of dealing 5 bleed stacks at .05 coefficient, instead deal one bleed stack at .25.

Or, instead of a 10 second bleed stack at .05, replace with a 5 second one at .10.

Fewer stacks output to get the same damage means more latitude for multiple condition users in a group, as does shorter duration but more intense bleeds, since it becomes harder to max out the cap of 25 as often.

Interesting idea, but bleeding is a very abundant condition. It would still reach the cap easily, even at half duration. The only impact from this would be doubling the damage dealt by the those 25 stacks over the course of the fight.

Ideally, we shouldn’t need any changes to the condition system—not even the one I suggested. If strong mobs had access to condition cleansing, our stacks would be wiped away before they could cap in the first place.

Since this discussion is rather pointless as the only mutual understanding we will achive is that, we will never agree on whether the curent meta is good or bad, and so i will only coment on sometthing that really kitten(…that kitty…) me off that was stated here many times.

Your gear, as in stats, dosent represent your level of skills at playing the game, its not zerker=pro while PVT=noob, its your FREAKING PLAYSTYLE that those stats represent, players put different value in stats and chose the one that are most interesting/useful for them, thes stats will represent their build or atleast part of it.
I can solo almost every champ(exept world bosses due to timer and some of the champs that are in fast respawn areas) in open world, dodgeing 70% of their attacks and reduceing other 30% in many ways avaliable for me, i rarely rely on my stats and yet im using condition tank build(dire set up) cus i like it that way.
Im not a noob, im maybe not a pro either but im not a freaking noob cus i use dire stats in PvE, so stop BSing here.

(inhale) …ok, that was all that i had to say, i wont bother to take part in this pointless discussion more than i already did, so cya.

Cold Hearted Person.6154:

Since this discussion is rather pointless as the only mutual understanding we will achive is that, we will never agree on whether the curent meta is good or bad, and so i will only coment on sometthing that really kitten(…that kitty…) me off that was stated here many times.

Your gear, as in stats, dosent represent your level of skills at playing the game, its not zerker=pro while PVT=noob, its your FREAKING PLAYSTYLE that those stats represent, players put different value in stats and chose the one that are most interesting/useful for them, thes stats will represent their build or atleast part of it.
I can solo almost every champ(exept world bosses due to timer and some of the champs that are in fast respawn areas) in open world, dodgeing 70% of their attacks and reduceing other 30% in many ways avaliable for me, i rarely rely on my stats and yet im using condition tank build(dire set up) cus i like it that way.
Im not a noob, im maybe not a pro either but im not a freaking noob cus i use dire stats in PvE, so stop BSing here.

(inhale) …ok, that was all that i had to say, i wont bother to take part in this pointless discussion more than i already did, so cya.

Gear has never been a direct indicator of skill, we make that connection indirectly. A player who is able to take risks and achieve success consistently is what we end up calling skilled. The assumption here is that an unskilled player will not continually use berserker gear and then keep on dying. Since we have no method by which to simply click on another player to see how often he has died, we use this assumption as a gauge.

As for soloing champions as a condi spec, that is the kite/attrition strategy similar to what we see in PVP. It works, just as a skilled berserker will be able to blind-burst-disengage-kite till cd-repeat a champ down. Generally a berserker will kill the champ faster than a condi, but it is a lot harder, thus the need for experience and skill.

Players have already soloed dungeon bosses as well, and the case remains the same. It is all about your success rate when taking risks.

The issue here is that in certain groups and dungeon runs, using the zerker meta has no risks. Players being able to stack in corners to clump mobs up, throw out wall of reflection and/or a well of darkness, and then decimate everything under 10 seconds before wall or well runs out (even 3 golem champs in SE1).

That method of gameplay is so ridiculously successful that there is no reason not to do it, and that is what this thread is about. Try not to react so personally and ignore whatever implications you feel exists and consider the real issue.

P/S: A player only becomes a noob when he/she refuses to consider if there are other faster/safer/more efficient ways to achieve the same thing, be it by using another spec, another skill or different gear. It is the inability to think beyond what they are currently using which makes them bad.

The lack of adaptability and the “I have killed X doing it this way before and I will not change anything” conservative mentality that makes others chide the player with the remark “you are noob because you don’t know any better”.

Shadoekin.3928:

Cold Hearted Person.6154:

Since this discussion is rather pointless as the only mutual understanding we will achive is that, we will never agree on whether the curent meta is good or bad, and so i will only coment on sometthing that really kitten(…that kitty…) me off that was stated here many times.

Your gear, as in stats, dosent represent your level of skills at playing the game, its not zerker=pro while PVT=noob, its your FREAKING PLAYSTYLE that those stats represent, players put different value in stats and chose the one that are most interesting/useful for them, thes stats will represent their build or atleast part of it.
I can solo almost every champ(exept world bosses due to timer and some of the champs that are in fast respawn areas) in open world, dodgeing 70% of their attacks and reduceing other 30% in many ways avaliable for me, i rarely rely on my stats and yet im using condition tank build(dire set up) cus i like it that way.
Im not a noob, im maybe not a pro either but im not a freaking noob cus i use dire stats in PvE, so stop BSing here.

(inhale) …ok, that was all that i had to say, i wont bother to take part in this pointless discussion more than i already did, so cya.

Gear has never been a direct indicator of skill, we make that connection indirectly. A player who is able to take risks and achieve success consistently is what we end up calling skilled. The assumption here is that an unskilled player will not continually use berserker gear and then keep on dying. Since we have no method by which to simply click on another player to see how often he has died, we use this assumption as a gauge.

As for soloing champions as a condi spec, that is the kite/attrition strategy similar to what we see in PVP. It works, just as a skilled berserker will be able to blind-burst-disengage-kite till cd-repeat a champ down. Generally a berserker will kill the champ faster than a condi, but it is a lot harder, thus the need for experience and skill.

Players have already soloed dungeon bosses as well, and the case remains the same. It is all about your success rate when taking risks.

The issue here is that in certain groups and dungeon runs, using the zerker meta has no risks. Players being able to stack in corners to clump mobs up, throw out wall of reflection and/or a well of darkness, and then decimate everything under 10 seconds before wall or well runs out (even 3 golem champs in SE1).

That method of gameplay is so ridiculously successful that there is no reason not to do it, and that is what this thread is about. Try not to react so personally and ignore whatever implications you feel exists and consider the real issue.

P/S: A player only becomes a noob when he/she refuses to consider if there are other faster/safer/more efficient ways to achieve the same thing, be it by using another spec, another skill or different gear. It is the inability to think beyond what they are currently using which makes them bad.

The lack of adaptability and the “I have killed X doing it this way before and I will not change anything” conservative mentality that makes others chide the player with the remark “you are noob because you don’t know any better”.

He’s still right however. No one has any right to judge his skill for his gear choices. He may have a character in full Berserker’s as well, for all you know, but he also may enjoy playing a character with something else. And, as he indicated, he knows how to dodge (I hate when people LOVE to imply that people that don’t use Berserker’s MUST NOT know how to dodge- a ridiculous and offensive assumption indeed.)

Never understood why people love to feel superior to others by putting others down. Makes you look like an incredible, arrogant jerk, more than a “skilled” player-think of all the musician or athletes who CAN brag about their achievements and bully others who are “lesser” but refuse to do so. In short, I feel one can be a speedrunner and “zerk” user without the attitude, but in this darned forum it’s rarely the case (always “noob/casual/carebear/deadweight/bad” this or that, as if insulting others was at all necessary or proved ANYTHING.)

And I totally disagree someone “becomes a noob” by refusing to adapt to the meta, which is what you are all boiling it down to, unfortunately. “Noob”, a pejorative which I don’t even personally use, implies “newbie”, and some of these players that don’t use Berserker’s all the time are NOT newbies, nor does ANYONE has the right to call them as such. Not everybody plays GW2 as a min/maxer, and those who don’t are not thus “noobs.”

Star Ace.5207:

And I totally disagree someone “becomes a noob” by refusing to adapt to the meta, which is what you are all boiling it down to, unfortunately. “Noob”, a pejorative which I don’t even personally use, implies “newbie”, and some of these players that don’t use Berserker’s all the time are NOT newbies, nor does ANYONE has the right to call them as such. Not everybody plays GW2 as a min/maxer, and those who don’t are not thus “noobs.”

You misunderstand, how good a player is not about his willingness to embrace the dps meta. Adaptation should be employed on a case by case basis, and has nothing to do with gear alone, or traits alone, or slotted skills alone.

If you entire group is dying because you are lacking a reflect, adaption in this case would mean having someone equip a reflect to protect the entire group. Same follows for blinds, a long lasting knockdown/stun, or group aegis. Adapt by changing your equipped skills.

If you group is already filled with condi players and you will probably just overwrite each other, it is silly not to adapt and change spec, change character or find another group.

If you group already has enough active mitigators and your entire team never sees a single hit, then wearing gear with toughness and vitality becomes a waste of stat points. Adapt by putting on gear with mostly offensive stats.

In most cases, it really does not matter, since competent teams will complete encounters, no matter how long it takes. Players only start calling each other out when the group wipes constantly, or certain players seem to be dying all the time. Worse when these players don’t seem to be outputting much damage.

Holding your team back, or being a burden should not be a condoned form of gameplay in group content. Insults start getting hurled when players feel that another is wasting their time. Usually the group will talk it out and people will accomodate by compromising, but occasionally you have players who are unwilling to listen to advice and that’s when you have votes or kick or leavers.

What it really boils down to are egos, and players feeling personally attacked when they are asked to change. There is no need for the “play how I want” community to feel that they need their specs/builds to be validated by the “min/max speed clear” community. It is more likely these “left and right wing” extremists who are so adamant on their build and gear choices that they refuse to adapt and make life for the majority of moderates unpleasant as they watch 2 players argue in group chat.

This all has nothing to do with the dps meta per se, as you can only control that before the group forms. And again I reiterate, a player who does not adapt to the fight or the current group composition is a noob. This player can be on any end of the spectrum of playstyles.

There is also a special kind of noob who seem to be unable to read LFG titles. A speed clear group means just that, so it’s really zerker or nothing. A full clear group also means just that, no skipping and running ahead of everyone else.

Shadoekin.3928:

Star Ace.5207:

And I totally disagree someone “becomes a noob” by refusing to adapt to the meta, which is what you are all boiling it down to, unfortunately. “Noob”, a pejorative which I don’t even personally use, implies “newbie”, and some of these players that don’t use Berserker’s all the time are NOT newbies, nor does ANYONE has the right to call them as such. Not everybody plays GW2 as a min/maxer, and those who don’t are not thus “noobs.”

You misunderstand, how good a player is not about his willingness to embrace the dps meta. Adaptation should be employed on a case by case basis, and has nothing to do with gear alone, or traits alone, or slotted skills alone.

If you entire group is dying because you are lacking a reflect, adaption in this case would mean having someone equip a reflect to protect the entire group. Same follows for blinds, a long lasting knockdown/stun, or group aegis. Adapt by changing your equipped skills.

If you group is already filled with condi players and you will probably just overwrite each other, it is silly not to adapt and change spec, change character or find another group.

If you group already has enough active mitigators and your entire team never sees a single hit, then wearing gear with toughness and vitality becomes a waste of stat points. Adapt by putting on gear with mostly offensive stats.

In most cases, it really does not matter, since competent teams will complete encounters, no matter how long it takes. Players only start calling each other out when the group wipes constantly, or certain players seem to be dying all the time. Worse when these players don’t seem to be outputting much damage.

Holding your team back, or being a burden should not be a condoned form of gameplay in group content. Insults start getting hurled when players feel that another is wasting their time. Usually the group will talk it out and people will accomodate by compromising, but occasionally you have players who are unwilling to listen to advice and that’s when you have votes or kick or leavers.

What it really boils down to are egos, and players feeling personally attacked when they are asked to change. There is no need for the “play how I want” community to feel that they need their specs/builds to be validated by the “min/max speed clear” community. It is more likely these “left and right wing” extremists who are so adamant on their build and gear choices that they refuse to adapt and make life for the majority of moderates unpleasant as they watch 2 players argue in group chat.

This all has nothing to do with the dps meta per se, as you can only control that before the group forms. And again I reiterate, a player who does not adapt to the fight or the current group composition is a noob. This player can be on any end of the spectrum of playstyles.

There is also a special kind of noob who seem to be unable to read LFG titles. A speed clear group means just that, so it’s really zerker or nothing. A full clear group also means just that, no skipping and running ahead of everyone else.

I actually agree with many of the things you stated, but no, “noob” is not related to “play how you want” as you insult those players. Ironically, you are also PLAYING HOW YOU WANT by being a min/maxer, and that’s fine too. Every player should play how they want, without being bullied for it-it’s the darned bullying and belittling in these forums and in-game that I strongly and forever will oppose (a hopeless battle, as it seems players love to deride each other in here.)

Of course experienced players adapt their builds/skill slots and gear for encounters/Dungeons/etc.-IF they have the pieces or weapons-for the content. But not necessarily in order to mix/max, and you implied (at least in your previous post)that by not min/maxing or using a more “efficient” build, a player is actually being a noob, as sadly you want to insult them as (does it make you feel better? I don’t get the point of calling someone else a noob, really, other than an ill-placed feeling of superiority somewhere.)

I actually do agree as well-and have ALWAYS stated as much-that if you don’t like speedrunning, don’t join the darned groups. Why drink poison and then complain you got poisoned? That’s why I myself avoid them, even if I have the “required gear” or knowledge of the Dungeon (not all speedrunners are jerks of course! But I rather minimize the chance of meeting one or two by not joining such groups.)

I am sorry for my strong stance on the issue-it’s not personal, as it’s more of a community problem that strongly bothers me (I know you not, nor was I trying to insult you.) It makes the game look horrible to new players, as it shouldn’t, because there are friendly players everywhere-but this constant ridicule against some players for playing this or that way I am sure is intimidating to many.

Star Ace.5207:

I am sorry for my strong stance on the issue-it’s not personal, as it’s more of a community problem that strongly bothers me (I know you not, nor was I trying to insult you.) It makes the game look horrible to new players, as it shouldn’t, because there are friendly players everywhere-but this constant ridicule against some players for playing this or that way I am sure is intimidating to many.

No apology necessary, how you feel is completely justified. Even some outbursts in-game, as harsh as they may be, are also justified…but definitely could have been more tactfully delivered.

The community trending towards one way and behavior is something Anet needs to track and look into. Speed clears are really efficient, but speed clear groups tend to be focused on finishing the instance ASAP and then moving on to the next. Players in such group don’t want to waste time discussing builds, equipped skills, teaching new players mechanics, or even talking to each other.

On days when I am pressed for time, I would probably want to get in on some speed clear action. On days where I want to feel more immersed into Tyria or want to try some new build/strategy, then obviously I won’t go bug 4 other people who want to speed clear. On days where I get into groups with a team mate with 3 digit AP, I’ll ask in group chat if anyone is new to the dungeon and needs an explanation before fights.

In some cases, speed clear groups don’t even mind having completely new players to the dungeon, they just don’t want to have to be the person typing everything to explain things to the new players. We’ve all had that “I’m home from work, I’m tired and wanna get through this quick and not teach a tutorial” feeling from time to time. That is understandable.

We just don’t want all the nice players to get hooked to fast rewards with the dps meta and then no one will be willing to teach new players anything….and the community continues to worsen.

Sometimes we wonder why can’t these people go look at dungeon guides, a video, or research wiki, seeing how other players have made the effort to write them. I guess some players prefer learning by experience maybe? We can’t all expect everyone else to do the same things we each do, else we’d all run the same profession, with the same build, with the same legendary and cosmetic armor.

I was going to just lurk and see how this meta thread would play out, but there are some issues that I think are being ignored.

Problem one The guild wars 2 “trinity” of damage, control, support is flawed in it base. The later two are under-defined, poorly implemented (Unshakable and fear of the stun-lock party, not to mention the Conquest focus of PvP that must always be maintained), are largely not truly a specialization in and of themselves. Basically you get a party that player are some combination of Damage, Damage/with a bit of control, Damage/with a bit of support, and Damage/with a bit of control and a bit of support.

This third point needs to be related further.
There is no mechanic in the game (for good or ill) that causes a control skill that land from a player focused on control to be better than one from a damage based player. Most (with the exception of Stun/Daze) are just non-damaging conditions and benefit from the one constant in the profession design system Condition Duration comes with Power in the trait system.

That is a bit on control, then we get into support which in the DPS meta devolved into might stacking, vulnerability stacking, adding to damage stat trinity (power, precision, critical damage), raw damage increases (frost spirit/time warp), and on some fight reflection skills to protect the party while not interupting the damage.

TLDR: The DPS meta exist due to the fact that the other two roles in anet’s trinity are underdeveloped, unneeded and unusable as anything but a secondary focus in the playstyle of a character.

Ok people let’s get something straight: DPS means damage per second. I play with conditions so I try as much as possible to make a build with the highest condition DPS as possible. YES, conditions DO DAMAGE PER SECOND! (aka DPS) wow! what an incredible discovery for zerkers! I bet you didn’t know that, right? It’s incredible right? I can go as high as 5000 DAMAGE PER SECOND with my conditions! Wow! Incredible huh? And then I can spread these conditions with a skill called epidemic to 5 other targets, making my 5000 DPS to 6×5000=30000 DAMAGE PER SECOND! (and they say conditions aren’t good – yea right)

BUT if the 25 cap is reached and I’m NOT ALLOWED to stack 25 bleads, fire, poison, fear and torment I can’t do that damage! I only want to BE LET BY ANET TO REACH IT! Is that such an unreasonable request? Zerkers have no such impairment! Zerker have no damage limitations! You all keep saying that zerkers are full ofensive! Well SO AM I! But instead of damage i go condition damage! If I go full offensive build with my necro and the cap is reached WTF can I do? just sit there and watch other people do damage as I sit quietly in a corner waiting for those stacks of bleed to go down so I can inflict my real condition damage? All those zerkers if they are building their zerk setup they should be stripped of condition damage cause they inflict NONE anyway and let condition builds do their jobs!

That’s why I want the condition cap removed! So in a team, if there are 2-3 condition builds THEY CAN INFLICT DAMAGE AS THEY ARE BUILD TO DO!!!!!!!! (like zerkers)

Is that clear?

I don´t understand the whole discussion here.
I am no zerk-gear player yet, but on the long term it is one of my goals.

For me it is a process. I am fairly new to GW2 so i don´t know every mechanic in every dungeon. Because of that, i don´t run full zerker-gear.
When the time has come that i know a dungeon perfect, i will go zerker-gear for a personal higher claim.

All guys which demand a nerf / change at the zerker gear are just jealous i guess.

Anet should put the energy in other things than nerf zerker gear. People who run in full zerker gear spend many time in getting high skilled. Let them their fun and honor.

@ Anet – bring new content and fix exploit possibilitys and bugs instead of ruin the fun of skilled players.

So long
Moga

Star Ace.5207:

I actually agree with many of the things you stated, but no, “noob” is not related to “play how you want” as you insult those players. Ironically, you are also PLAYING HOW YOU WANT by being a min/maxer, and that’s fine too. Every player should play how they want, without being bullied for it-it’s the darned bullying and belittling in these forums and in-game that I strongly and forever will oppose (a hopeless battle, as it seems players love to deride each other in here.)

Of course experienced players adapt their builds/skill slots and gear for encounters/Dungeons/etc.-IF they have the pieces or weapons-for the content. But not necessarily in order to mix/max, and you implied (at least in your previous post)that by not min/maxing or using a more “efficient” build, a player is actually being a noob, as sadly you want to insult them as (does it make you feel better? I don’t get the point of calling someone else a noob, really, other than an ill-placed feeling of superiority somewhere.)

I actually do agree as well-and have ALWAYS stated as much-that if you don’t like speedrunning, don’t join the darned groups. Why drink poison and then complain you got poisoned? That’s why I myself avoid them, even if I have the “required gear” or knowledge of the Dungeon (not all speedrunners are jerks of course! But I rather minimize the chance of meeting one or two by not joining such groups.)

I am sorry for my strong stance on the issue-it’s not personal, as it’s more of a community problem that strongly bothers me (I know you not, nor was I trying to insult you.) It makes the game look horrible to new players, as it shouldn’t, because there are friendly players everywhere-but this constant ridicule against some players for playing this or that way I am sure is intimidating to many.

Main part I just want to point out is I like playing tanky, always have, always will. However, when I’m going into a dungeon, how I want to play should be less relevant than what needs to be done, you’re no longer just affecting yourself, but four others. It seems so many people agree about both sides of things, why not make friends and run content together how you both want. Just remember with randoms, generally the safest way to deal with PuGs is to get it over with as fast as possible, because a long rough run, someone breaks, they almost always do. Also, even though I enjoy number crunching, when it comes to making gold in game, don’t we all want to make it as fast as possible usually? I know I do….

Gulesave.5073:

To make one thing clear: they cannot simply remove the condition cap.

It’s reason for being there has less to do with balance, and is much more of a technological limitation. This has been pointed out repeatedly by the devs in the past.

Conditions and boons are much more complicated code than they appear, and running too many stacks at one time across a map would bog the servers down and make the game nigh unplayable.

Removing the condition cap altogether just isn’t feasible. What they might be able to do is scale the cap according to unit.

Trash mobs can make do with a very low cap, since they don’t survive long enough to accrue many conditions in the first place. Replace their per-condition caps entirely with a single cap such as “25 stacks total, between all conditions,” and players shouldn’t even notice the change. Veterans would have a bit more, and upward from there. On higher tier foes, the per-condition cap can remain in place to encourage a balanced spread of multiple conditions.

This shift would leave room for plenty of stacks on champions and world bosses.

I didn’t knew that they had server issues and therefore put that cap to manage those issues. Then if this is the case fine, leave the cap but improve the condition damage greatly and reduce their duration (especially the bleads are the problem here cause they stack so fast and their are the primary damage for condition necros) so the condition builds WHEN OPTIMIZED for condition damage to be able to do as much damage as zerkers. I think that’s only fair. Make the conditions last 1-2 second so when buffed 100% for length they shouldn’t reach more then 4-5 seconds total. If I optimize for condition damage I want to be able to inflict it on enemies like zerkers do!

Another mechanic they could employ to resolve this issue is to override the weaker conditions (bleeds etc) inflicted by some players who play zerk for example with the ones ones inflicted from other sources like condition builds when the cap is reached or make them stack in length after the cap is reached so 100 bleeds from 100 players of 1 second per bleed each to stack 25 times over 4 seconds total.

Minimizing condition time, maximizing condition damage, overriding the condition damage or stacking them on length could solve this problem.

I just want my bleeds to tic so I could inflict the damage I have prepared my build for.

Valdur.2679:

Ok people let’s get something straight: DPS means damage per second. I play with conditions so I try as much as possible to make a build with the highest condition DPS as possible. YES, conditions DO DAMAGE PER SECOND! (aka DPS) wow! what an incredible discovery for zerkers! I bet you didn’t know that, right? It’s incredible right? I can go as high as 5000 DAMAGE PER SECOND with my conditions! Wow! Incredible huh? And then I can spread these conditions with a skill called epidemic to 5 other targets, making my 5000 DPS to 6×5000=30000 DAMAGE PER SECOND! (and they say conditions aren’t good – yea right)

BUT if the 25 cap is reached and I’m NOT ALLOWED to stack 25 bleads, fire, poison, fear and torment I can’t do that damage! I only want to BE LET BE ANET TO REACH IT! Is that such an unreasonable request? Zerkers have no such impairment! Zerker have no damage limitations! You all keep saying that zerkers are full ofensive! Well SO AM I! But instead of damage i go condition damage! If I go full offensive build with my necro and the cap is reached WTF can I do? just sit there and watch other people do damage as I sit quietly in a corner waiting for those stacks of bleed to go down so I can inflict my real condition damage? All those zerkers if they are building their zerk setup they should be stripped of condition damage cause they inflict NONE anyway and let condition builds do their jobs!

That’s why I want the condition cap removed! So in a team, if there are 2-3 condition builds THEY CAN INFLICT DAMAGE AS THEY ARE BUILD TO DO!!!!!!!! (like zerkers)

Is that clear?

Issue with condi’s is how other players can effect the conditions, as well you have a longer wind up time than anything zerker. Not to mention most places where epidemic is useful the mob/mobs would be dead before you hit an appropriate amount of conditions to spread using epidemic. Maybe if anet made it so the strongest condition always remains on but when a weaker one is attempted to be applied the different percentage of dmg is taken out of the duration and then the remaining duration is added to the lowest remaining duration of the condition if it stacks or just adds if it doesn’t stack(dmg condi ticking for 300 for 5s, someone applies a bleed that would deal 100 for 3s, instead 1s is added to lowest duration remaining 300 bleed, ONLY if the stacks are maxed, however a stronger condi will just override a weaker condi no increased duration). Not sure how well I worded that but I hope its understandable.

I think combat in general is severely flawed. In GW1 support, damage, healing came together perfectly. Conditions helped to take down foes effectively, while well played daze, blind, interrupts, and support provided damage mitigation. Combat in GW2 is more about bash and cleave mobs down in a barbaric fashion that makes the combat utterly boring and unrewarding (most of the reason why I have not played much of GW2 in the past 4 months). Focusing on conditions to inflict damage is all but slow and ineffective which makes spec’ing into damage ideal. The time it takes to kill something shouldn’t really be used a measure for how difficult a boss or a group should be determined. In my opinion the AI for mobs and bosses needs scrapped and reworked from the ground up. GW1 foes had builds and used them--well tried hard to use them--effectively. They would run out of AoE and would switch aggro during a fight. the only real AI I’ve seen thus far in GW2 is that centaur rangers kite if you have melee weapons equipped... and whomever has the highest armor get all the aggro... bravo! Hope you’re devs are proud of this "advanced" intelligence. >_>

Spec’ing into condition damage is unfavorable do to how long it takes to take down even trash mobs and how ineffective conditions are on bosses. World bosses use an attack every 30 seconds at best making confusion all but a joke; poison and bleeding have little effect when their hp is the millions; fear, daze, stun, does nothing on world bosses (although it makes sense that you can’t fear world bosses).

All in all, combat needs to be improved so that it becomes--not necessary--but important to spread your attributes out.

there are several good cases like champion giants, underwater fractal bosses that spawn multiple minions and on them epidemic is king. also on elites single target ppl concentrate on one elite and then bam – epidemic and all elites have those conditions. epidemic is a very good skill for spreading conditions around and it’s useful in dungeons, high level fractals, champions and bosses that spawn minions etc.

the current meta isn’t bad just unbalanced from the condition point of view. instead of some many stacks of bleeds that can’t tick (that’s the main issue here with bleeds not other conditions that don’t stack) just increase the length and the damage so they are able to tick. increase the damage of the bleeds substantially, make them stackable on length only and also increase the damage of the poison to compensate.

so: bleads, poison and fire unstackable (stackable on a team of people but not on you’re own – on you’re own only stackable in length) and balance their damage output so with the damage done by the weapons and the conditions to be able to reach at least 66% of zerker dps on the armor sets that give power and condition damage and 100% zerker dps on rampager armor (that must be redesigned a little to give power or condition damage as primary atribute and / or make two new sets of armor with condition/power/precision and power/precision/condition)

Eir Jordan.2156:

This sounds like an awful proposal by ArenaNet, truly ominous stuff. Don’t bow to the people that don’t know how to play by nerfing the damage specs that reward risk!

EDIT: If you feel that you have to bow to the bads on this then improve the AI or attack frequency.

Are we playing the same game? Running around for PVE in berserkers is “pro gaming”? For the above poster, and all others who share that opinion, think again, there is no risk in running around doing PVE stuff in berserkers gear (I play a full berserker elementalist, the class with the lowest HP and armor pool in the game, who has done every dungeon/path/…. in the game).

It would be more risky to go do a dungeon with a team using Cleric/Dire/Magi armor sets than in berserkers since you would need a lot more time killing something, thus you would need more dodges/hp/aegis/armor to stay alive longer.

Thats what the whole thread is about:
The reason why zerk gear is most effective in PVE at the moment is because the faster you kill something the less the chance for it to kill you. Nothing else!

You are not more “pro” because a monster can kill you in 1 hit as opposed to 2 hits, the zerk + stacking meta makes it possible to effectively aoe heal better, aoe buff better and do good damage at the same time, while constant vigor provides fast endurance regeneration for constant evading into the wall/corner, and guess what using that also doesnt make you a better player, theres nothing pro in permanently pressing your forward+evade key while bashing buttons that execute skills and aoes onto the same area….

Palaryel.2463:

The reason why zerk gear is most effective in PVE at the moment is because the faster you kill something the less the chance for it to kill you. Nothing else!

Funny, and I was thinking the faster you kill stuff, the less time the run will take. I stand corrected, thanks!

The reason zerk gear is the most effective in PvE is that, barring some serious low skill level issue, you cannot fail dungeons and the rewards are identical in all cases. And so the only criteria left to decide if a run was better than another, is to see which one was the fastest.

zerk meta can be nerfed very easily by putting a cap of 50% to critical damage. conditions are caped at 25 per condition, why shouldn’t zerkers be caped at 50% crit damage? (you can only be allowed to do double damage – 200% – not 270% like now. :P

interesting idea, no? it will force the zerkers to look into conditions builds and make a more balanced build if they want to go full offensive. they will have to use damage AND condition damage to be able to achieve similar results. (now zerkers will chop my head with their buffed 270% damage increase. i already wrote my testament, lived a full and rewarding life so go ahead: kill me!)

PS: also cap the crit chance at 50% so going full precision won’t help you. that way ppl will have more balanced builds.

Well it’s fine as long as you also cap HP gain from vitality to 2k and armor from toughness at 500.

better to cap health and toughness gained from weapons/armor/trinkets to 50% of base value.

toughness already is somewhat caped to 3k armor going past that is wasting effectiveness. so nah you dont need another cap to toughness, HP is of little consequance and may even be a problem if you dont have enought healing (you get to die slightly less faster but you dont heal enought to go back to full easily) so no need for a cap to it, Condition damage is capped by the 25 stack and healing power serves no purpose, Only stat that doesnt have a hard cap is critical damage, power and precision wich can reach absurd numbers even with gear alone, those stats need a diminishing returns.

kyubi.3620:

toughness already is somewhat caped to 3k armor going past that is wasting effectiveness.

Wrong.

kyubi.3620:

Only stat that doesnt have a hard cap is critical damage, power and precision

Wrong.

Ask anyone whos actualy running tank build but theres actualy diminishing returns to running armor over 3k, it may take variable amount of toughness depending on the class but the actual effective sweet spot is always 3k.

precision isnt capped and so does critical damage and if theres a cap id like you to actualy post it so that everyone stop running full zerker for nothing XD (the very fact you can run full zerker proves there is no cap to those stats)

kyubi.3620:

Ask anyone whos actualy running tank build but theres actualy diminishing returns to running armor over 3k

precision isnt capped and so does critical damage and if theres a cap id like you to actualy post it so that everyone stop running full zerker for nothing XD (the very fact you can run full zerker proves there is no cap to those stats)

There’s no cap or DR threshold at all. There’s just a formula where armor is on denominator, which means that for a given attack the damage received will decrease faster if you add N armor to lower values than if you add it to higher ones, be them 2.5k, 3k, 5k or as much as you want.

There’s no diminishing returns on toughness. And the only stat that has a hard cap in the game is Precision which is completely contrary to your affirmation that it’s one of the only 3 that doesn’t have a hard cap.

stof.9341:

There’s no diminishing returns on toughness. And the only stat that has a hard cap in the game is Precision which is completely contrary to your affirmation that it’s one of the only 3 that doesn’t have a hard cap.

because you can actualy hit 100% crit rate without getting mass buffed with fury spotter and banner? Ah good one. Still you shoulnt be able to get 100% in the first place.

kyubi.3620:

because you can actualy hit 100% crit rate without getting mass buffed with fury spotter and banner? Ah good one. Still you shoulnt be able to get 100% in the first place.

- It’s not as if it’s impossible to have 100% uptime on fury, spotter and banner you know.
- It’s not as if the cap isn’t commonly reachable that it doesn’t exist whereas NO other stat has a cap.
- The fact you should or shouldn’t reach 100% crit is completely unrelated to the problem at hand anyway. This is pure opinion on your part too btw.

Valdur.2679:

zerk meta can be nerfed very easily by putting a cap of 50% to critical damage. conditions are caped at 25 per condition, why shouldn’t zerkers be caped at 50% crit damage? (you can only be allowed to do double damage – 200% – not 270% like now. :P

interesting idea, no? it will force the zerkers to look into conditions builds and make a more balanced build if they want to go full offensive. they will have to use damage AND condition damage to be able to achieve similar results. (now zerkers will chop my head with their buffed 270% damage increase. i already wrote my testament, lived a full and rewarding life so go ahead: kill me!)

PS: also cap the crit chance at 50% so going full precision won’t help you. that way ppl will have more balanced builds.

Actually, what you suggested would make things worse. The better solution would be to decrease monster total HP, increase monster Armor (condition damage bypasses armor, so it is more effective against high armored monsters), and reworks conditions to do a bit more damage than they do now.

Also, making monsters hit faster for less damage makes people want more passive mitigation (HP and/or armor). So what others already explained above, they should make monsters hit faster for small numbers (250-1000/hit) and have K.O. skills on a longer cooldown, maybe also add a few cleave attacks.

kyubi.3620:

Ask anyone whos actualy running tank build but theres actualy diminishing returns to running armor over 3k, it may take variable amount of toughness depending on the class but the actual effective sweet spot is always 3k.

precision isnt capped and so does critical damage and if theres a cap id like you to actualy post it so that everyone stop running full zerker for nothing XD (the very fact you can run full zerker proves there is no cap to those stats)

kyubi.3620:

Ask anyone whos actualy running tank build but theres actualy diminishing returns to running armor over 3k, it may take variable amount of toughness depending on the class but the actual effective sweet spot is always 3k.

precision isnt capped and so does critical damage and if theres a cap id like you to actualy post it so that everyone stop running full zerker for nothing XD (the very fact you can run full zerker proves there is no cap to those stats)

Precision by itself is not capped, thats true, however, crit chance is capped at 100%, so the effective precision cap would be whatever number would get you to 100% after food/sigils/runes/… (and after fury if your group can run it permanently), everything above that soft cap would be a waste.

Also, someone wrote about toughness/vitality caps, toughness is soft capped at around 3k, as getting anything above that is giving you very little in return, while theoretically more of it will always be an improvement, the actual improvement would be to small to make it worth it. Vitality has no cap, and should not ever have a cap, it isnt logical to put a cap on vitality, players can adjust their vitality based on how much armor they have and based on their playstyle.

Power has no cap at all, but is a linear function, resulting in a steady increase for a particular amount of power based on your level, as such (theoretically) it would be the best dump stat (followed by vitality) for your leftover points once you have covered all your other needs. Sadly, considering the current state of the game, power along with precision and crit damage is the only viable PVE stat for reasons described above.