Guild Wars 2

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Backstab-1/first

This is a thread a made a few months ago and go highly upvoted, it has sinc ethen been buried and I deicded to bring it where it matters, so I will copy parts of it on here.

Anyways, I want to ask whats Anet stand on Backstab currently. While I understand that thieves dont have all that much going on for themselves when it comes to team support as we know it, Im wondering if Anet is really ok with thieves hitting anywhere from 8k-10k ( in PvP) or 14-16k (in WvW) with a single ability that unlike most classes with such a strong hitting spell, this one lacks obvious animation, cannot be blocked and does not reveal the thief until it is dispensed. Neither block/evade/blind will apply reveal and negate the damage.

Currently I believe that if the class is supposed to have that much damage, then I suggest we move that damage to other skills that require at least some kind of risk. Sure if you are a 20k hp warrior then 9k might not be all htat much to you, but if you are a valkiry/zerker guard, ele or mesmer than a 9k hit will take more than half your life ( 80% of your life if you are guard/ele) and thats every 4 seconds.

Please dont bring the “but thieves are squishy! spam all your long CDs in the hope that it might hit them”. It is not fun to be on the receiving end, it is not fun for any observer (I can assure you many people will close any stream if all you see if a thief one shooting anyone in any 1v1 scenario and disengaging any time their health drop a bit).

Thats for PvP, now as for WvW, I dont think 14-16k backstabs are balanced, as show in this video, by a person who was by himself, no buffs from other classes, no prior 25 might stacks, just straight up burst to lvl 80s:

I believe we can do better than this. Im all for counterplay.

I made a similar thread in this forum section here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvP-wvw-Thief-Backstab

Guess I’ll just post my thoughts regarding backstab:

Greetings Anet and everyone,
As the topic suggests this is about backstab. This skill hits extremely hard, even with 2100 toughness and nearly 3400 armor. I observed that even with that much defense backstab still hits for around 4.7k health, which is nearly 50% of base health of guardian, elementalist and thief.
Out of curiosity I tested against the same thief but this time my character was using zerker gear. I’m not too sure the numbers exactly but I think it hit for around 7-8k health. Is this balanced?

For a skill that is:
1. Nearly instant attack
2. With no cooldown
3. That you can not see coming
4. Missing or having the attack blocked does not debuff the thief with reveal

Its damage is extraordinarily high. Should a near instant skill that has no direct counter play hit for so hard?

From my perspective this is adverse to what Anet has said about combat. Which is they want the player to be animation observant instead of staring at casting bars.
Unfortunately, its hard to apply that idea against a near instant attack that you can not see coming.

that is straight up glass.
using all utilities for his burst, no condi removal, no healing in stealth, no Blinds, no stun breakers, no stability
he will most likely die if someone tickled him for 2 seconds.

No skill should hit that much without a large sacrifice/long channel time. Look at skills like Churning Earth and Kill Shot. These skills do incredible amounts of damage, but both have a channel time of like 3 seconds and decent length cooldowns (30 and 10 + time to regain enough adrenaline to use the SAME version of the skill again, respectively).

All high hitting skills in this game come with a high cost whether it is through a long channel, a long channel, or a combination of both (final thrust, for example).

Backstab has the capability to hit for 15k+ in full glass builds.

Two conditions must be met:
1) Stealthed
2) Hit from behind or sides

For #1, stealth can be spammed constantly, so that isn’t a problem. Backstab, as the name implies, should only hit from exactly the back and not the sides included. This would bring the overall success rate of the skill from 75% to 25%, a reasonable drawback to something that delivers such high damage. Either that or the initiative cost needs to be enough to where it can’t be done quickly in succession. i.e. C+d takes 5 or 6 initiative, most thieves have 12, so backstab should cost at least 5-6 initiative to use. death blossom costs 5 and does much less direct damage.

I’ve always felt that backstab isn’t punished enough for missing. I think it would be interesting if a thief got a debuff for missing a backstab that reduced damage by 10-15% per miss, that added up until a backstab landed or the thief was removed from stealth.

Yes I have a level 80 thief, by the way.

Spicyhash.7605:

No skill should hit that much without a large sacrifice/long channel time. Look at skills like Churning Earth and Kill Shot. These skills do incredible amounts of damage, but both have a channel time of like 3 seconds and decent length cooldowns (30 and 10 + time to regain enough adrenaline to use the SAME version of the skill again, respectively).

All high hitting skills in this game come with a high cost whether it is through a long channel, a long channel, or a combination of both (final thrust, for example).

Backstab has the capability to hit for 15k+ in full glass builds.

Two conditions must be met:
1) Stealthed
2) Hit from behind or sides

For #1, stealth can be spammed constantly, so that isn’t a problem. Backstab, as the name implies, should only hit from exactly the back and not the sides included. This would bring the overall success rate of the skill from 75% to 25%, a reasonable drawback to something that delivers such high damage. Either that or the initiative cost needs to be enough to where it can’t be done quickly in succession. i.e. C+d takes 5 or 6 initiative, most thieves have 12, so backstab should cost at least 5-6 initiative to use. death blossom costs 5 and does much less direct damage.

Killshot can be cast from 1000+ away and is used by a warrior which lets face it is anets favorite class.
Churning earth is AOE and also applies bleeds (can be used with a utility to make the cast from range and just zap in)

Backstab – Single Target, Must be in melee range and behind the target
Must use 4 signets and venom for a max of 22 might stacks (45s cd for each full power burst)
No way to heal, No way to remove conditions, No way to mitigate any damage aside from running away. (based on the vid and the build he was most likely using. )

very very very glassy with no survival…see what happens if he can’t land his stuff @ 5:39

watch the end of the video for epic 18k!!!!!!!!

killshot…

Don’t think backstab thiefs are OP in WvW, they are just nub stompers.
The blind/stealth spam thiefs are the ones that are almost unkillable. Thiefs aren’t in a bad position right now, stunbreak the venom or block it’s burst.

Brando.1374:

that is straight up glass.
using all utilities for his burst, no condi removal, no healing in stealth, no Blinds, no stun breakers, no stability
he will most likely die if someone tickled him for 2 seconds.

Burst compared to hp is straight up asinine.

No one who actually cares for a healthy and balanced pvp experience cares about what you have to sacrifice to obtain such high burst numbers. They care about getting rid of ridiculous game mechanics like these for long term retention and increased player participation.

If I were a game developer, I’d be embarrassed to let poor mechanics like these remain as long as they have.

Swagger.1459:

Brando.1374:

that is straight up glass.
using all utilities for his burst, no condi removal, no healing in stealth, no Blinds, no stun breakers, no stability
he will most likely die if someone tickled him for 2 seconds.

Burst compared to hp is straight up asinine.

No one who actually cares for a healthy and balanced pvp experience cares about what you have to sacrifice to obtain such high burst numbers. They care about getting rid of ridiculous game mechanics like these for long term retention and increased player participation.

If I were a game developer, I’d be embarrassed to let poor mechanics like these remain as long as they have.

and what would you give thieves instead? they should like any class have a chance in fight, don’t you think?

Cynz.9437:

Swagger.1459:

Brando.1374:

that is straight up glass.
using all utilities for his burst, no condi removal, no healing in stealth, no Blinds, no stun breakers, no stability
he will most likely die if someone tickled him for 2 seconds.

Burst compared to hp is straight up asinine.

No one who actually cares for a healthy and balanced pvp experience cares about what you have to sacrifice to obtain such high burst numbers. They care about getting rid of ridiculous game mechanics like these for long term retention and increased player participation.

If I were a game developer, I’d be embarrassed to let poor mechanics like these remain as long as they have.

and what would you give thieves instead? they should like any class have a chance in fight, don’t you think?

They don’t have burst damage like that in spvp and they are fine.

Aza.2105:

Cynz.9437:

Swagger.1459:

Brando.1374:

that is straight up glass.
using all utilities for his burst, no condi removal, no healing in stealth, no Blinds, no stun breakers, no stability
he will most likely die if someone tickled him for 2 seconds.

Burst compared to hp is straight up asinine.

No one who actually cares for a healthy and balanced pvp experience cares about what you have to sacrifice to obtain such high burst numbers. They care about getting rid of ridiculous game mechanics like these for long term retention and increased player participation.

If I were a game developer, I’d be embarrassed to let poor mechanics like these remain as long as they have.

and what would you give thieves instead? they should like any class have a chance in fight, don’t you think?

They don’t have burst damage like that in spvp and they are fine.

thats because almost everyone else is a bunker

Brando.1374:

Aza.2105:

Cynz.9437:

Swagger.1459:

Brando.1374:

that is straight up glass.
using all utilities for his burst, no condi removal, no healing in stealth, no Blinds, no stun breakers, no stability
he will most likely die if someone tickled him for 2 seconds.

Burst compared to hp is straight up asinine.

No one who actually cares for a healthy and balanced pvp experience cares about what you have to sacrifice to obtain such high burst numbers. They care about getting rid of ridiculous game mechanics like these for long term retention and increased player participation.

If I were a game developer, I’d be embarrassed to let poor mechanics like these remain as long as they have.

and what would you give thieves instead? they should like any class have a chance in fight, don’t you think?

They don’t have burst damage like that in spvp and they are fine.

thats because almost everyone else is a bunker

No, even when I’m spec zerker I have yet to see a thief in soloq one – two shot my health.

Aza.2105:

Cynz.9437:

Swagger.1459:

Brando.1374:

that is straight up glass.
using all utilities for his burst, no condi removal, no healing in stealth, no Blinds, no stun breakers, no stability
he will most likely die if someone tickled him for 2 seconds.

Burst compared to hp is straight up asinine.

No one who actually cares for a healthy and balanced pvp experience cares about what you have to sacrifice to obtain such high burst numbers. They care about getting rid of ridiculous game mechanics like these for long term retention and increased player participation.

If I were a game developer, I’d be embarrassed to let poor mechanics like these remain as long as they have.

and what would you give thieves instead? they should like any class have a chance in fight, don’t you think?

They don’t have burst damage like that in spvp and they are fine.

characters in pvp are also not that tanky as in pve/wvw

Cynz.9437:

Aza.2105:

Cynz.9437:

Swagger.1459:

Brando.1374:

that is straight up glass.
using all utilities for his burst, no condi removal, no healing in stealth, no Blinds, no stun breakers, no stability
he will most likely die if someone tickled him for 2 seconds.

Burst compared to hp is straight up asinine.

No one who actually cares for a healthy and balanced pvp experience cares about what you have to sacrifice to obtain such high burst numbers. They care about getting rid of ridiculous game mechanics like these for long term retention and increased player participation.

If I were a game developer, I’d be embarrassed to let poor mechanics like these remain as long as they have.

and what would you give thieves instead? they should like any class have a chance in fight, don’t you think?

They don’t have burst damage like that in spvp and they are fine.

characters in pvp are also not that tanky as in pve/wvw

No they are about the same. Here is a example of zerker build pvp vs its pve version:

Zerker pvp: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQFARlUgiDnGyOEf4Eh1DCeQ/VVIeXPgYEbIA-TgAg0Ecp4yxlhLJXWuGFA

Zerker pve: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQFARlUgiDnGyNEf4Eh1DAeQ/VVIeXPgYEbIA-jUxAJvioxWcLiGraBTVSEV7NKiWNA-w

I’m not going to include ascended gear, there is no such thing in spvp and ascended gear just amplifies the stat disparity. Anyhow, if you compare the two stats they are relatively the same. Except crit damage is nearly doubled the amount.

Lets look a cleric pvp build vs pve build:

Cleric pvp: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJApelUgiDnGyOEf4Eh1DCeQ/VVIeXPg4DbIA-TcAgzEYp4yxlhLJXWuA

Cleric pve: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJApelUgiDnGyOEf4Eh1DCeQ/VVIeXPg4DbIA-TcAgzEYp4yxlhLJXWuA

Stats wise again they are similar. Cleric in pvp has 110 less toughness and roughly 30 less healing power. The pvp version actually has slightly more power! But not by much.

So as you can see, characters in pvp are just as tanky as their pve counter parts. In fact its not much different. But there is a gigantic disparity between the max crit damage achieved in pve and pvp.

Cynz.9437:

Swagger.1459:

Brando.1374:

that is straight up glass.
using all utilities for his burst, no condi removal, no healing in stealth, no Blinds, no stun breakers, no stability
he will most likely die if someone tickled him for 2 seconds.

Burst compared to hp is straight up asinine.

No one who actually cares for a healthy and balanced pvp experience cares about what you have to sacrifice to obtain such high burst numbers. They care about getting rid of ridiculous game mechanics like these for long term retention and increased player participation.

If I were a game developer, I’d be embarrassed to let poor mechanics like these remain as long as they have.

and what would you give thieves instead? they should like any class have a chance in fight, don’t you think?

stuff. idk. whatever. i’m talking in macro not micro, so I don’t care to think about it right now. all professions (that includes our precious little thieves) need work, but the elephants in the room need to start being addressed for balanced changes, improved gameplay and diversity to occur.

Aza.2105:

So as you can see, characters in pvp are just as tanky as their pve counter parts. In fact its not much different. But there is a gigantic disparity between the max crit damage achieved in pve and pvp.

There’s also food in PvE which boosts the disparity even more. Some types of food are just ridiculously powerful. I mean +40% condition duration? You’d never see something like that in sPvP and it’s one of the major reasons condition builds are so strong in WvW.

Swagger.1459:

Brando.1374:

that is straight up glass.
using all utilities for his burst, no condi removal, no healing in stealth, no Blinds, no stun breakers, no stability
he will most likely die if someone tickled him for 2 seconds.

Burst compared to hp is straight up asinine.

No one who actually cares for a healthy and balanced pvp experience cares about what you have to sacrifice to obtain such high burst numbers. They care about getting rid of ridiculous game mechanics like these for long term retention and increased player participation.

If I were a game developer, I’d be embarrassed to let poor mechanics like these remain as long as they have.

So would I.

I have played many of these type of games. They all try and improve things as they go forward. When something is really broken, they usually try and put the repair on the front burner. I have never seen a developer ignore something so outlandish, broken and flawed as this.

And here we have the problem: We just don’t get each other very well.

You wanna know what I as a thief think kinda unfair? Warriors! Hell are they OP!

Please anyone, before complaining play the class before you actually start screaming. Aside the fact that thiefs have to do really hard to play in PVE dungeon groups, we have NOTHING beside that stealth-mechanic and once we reveal ourselfs we better speed up the game or we’re done fore. I know that backstab is strong (really strong just if you go full dps which is – let me tell you – a pain in the kitten since you’ll die from anything) but that’s why I like the already implemented reveal debuff.
-> Chain attacks still hit us (hard)

That’s what ppl don’t get: Thief is a very risky high-risk-high-reward class. We maybe can end fights more quickly but if you take backstab away we’re more or less done for.

Blocking the backstab should just reveal the thief. Same goes for a ’’miss’’ if the thief is blinded.

problem solved

xsquared.1926:

Blocking the backstab should just reveal the thief. Same goes for a ’’miss’’ if the thief is blinded.

problem solved

Absolutely agree.

xsquared.1926:

Blocking the backstab should just reveal the thief. Same goes for a ’’miss’’ if the thief is blinded.

problem solved

Minister ricefarmer please go.

1/10, best I can do.

Maesk.8753:

xsquared.1926:

Blocking the backstab should just reveal the thief. Same goes for a ’’miss’’ if the thief is blinded.

problem solved

Minister ricefarmer please go.

1/10, best I can do.

You play S/P anyways :^)

xsquared.1926:

Maesk.8753:

xsquared.1926:

Blocking the backstab should just reveal the thief. Same goes for a ’’miss’’ if the thief is blinded.

problem solved

Minister ricefarmer please go.

1/10, best I can do.

You play S/P anyways :^)

Not anymore, s/d now. Its still a stupid idea. I guess I’d be okay with it as long as warriors burst skills used all adrenaline when they miss and went on full cooldown.

I think that would be fair :^)

ps. nerf phase retreat, its still a psuedo stunbreak.

Maesk.8753:

xsquared.1926:

Maesk.8753:

xsquared.1926:

Blocking the backstab should just reveal the thief. Same goes for a ’’miss’’ if the thief is blinded.

problem solved

Minister ricefarmer please go.

1/10, best I can do.

You play S/P anyways :^)

Not anymore, s/d now. Its still a stupid idea. I guess I’d be okay with it as long as warriors burst skills used all adrenaline when they miss and went on full cooldown.

I think that would be fair :^)

ps. nerf phase retreat, its still a psuedo stunbreak.

I agree with you on the warrior notion. Seeing a warrior URFSHAKE away from me as an escape to only use it 7-10 seconds later is pretty crazy. Players should be punished for missing their attacks, not giving them a second shot.

The pseudo stunbreak on PR should be kept unless they put staff back to it’s former glory pre march 2013. Giving Chaos armour and Chaos storm such a big nerf kind of killed the staff for anything other than having great mobility in combat and annoying everyone that tries to catch you.

While we’re at it, nerf P/U. It’s a bs trait

Wow, it seems people really are still complaining about backstab. So I take it you stand still so that thief can land a clear hit? Only thieves that spec 100% glass gear and traitwise (no survivability, condi removal, healing, etc) can achieve such high backstabs, and they die incredibly fast. 90-95% of the thieves won’t be hitting you for even near that amount. There’s plenty of counterplay to punish a thief for trying to backstab you, but I guess it involves too much effort for players like you that rather just whine on the forums.

There are so many problems in this game, and backstab isn’t one of them. And what you fail to mention that even if your post was upvoted, the first reply that explains backstab isn’t a problem is upvoted by atleast as many people, by players who are actually half decent at playing this game.

Forzani.2584:

So would I.

I have played many of these type of games. They all try and improve things as they go forward. When something is really broken, they usually try and put the repair on the front burner. I have never seen a developer ignore something so outlandish, broken and flawed as this.

Sorry, but have you seen condi/bunker meta insanity going on in wvw and pvp? AND THIEF, OUT OF ALL THE THINGS, IS THE PROBLEM?
Dear God, it doesn’t matter if thieves could only autoattack at this point, they’ll still be too OPeee to fight against according to some. Wait actually if you think about it, the fact a thief can attack is quite a broken, despicable mechanic as well that must be removed. My loot bags shouldn’t fight back, right?

AlexEBT.7240:

Forzani.2584:

So would I.

I have played many of these type of games. They all try and improve things as they go forward. When something is really broken, they usually try and put the repair on the front burner. I have never seen a developer ignore something so outlandish, broken and flawed as this.

Sorry, but have you seen condi/bunker meta insanity going on in wvw and pvp? AND THIEF, OUT OF ALL THE THINGS, IS THE PROBLEM? …………

Correct. It’s all about priorities. There will always be something to adjust or tweak. the big ones come first.

/15char

As a Thief main, I think backstab is fine. The counterplay isn’t in the backstab itself, but in the stealthing. There’s plenty of counterplay involved in keeping a D/D or D/P Thief from stealthing, and proposing that blinding powder or something is used means that the Thief loses out on a cooldown, stunbreaker, and possibly initiative, depending on the utility swapped out. If he’s Shadow Arts, his damage is pathetic anyway. Blind him and block him as D/D, and use your dazes/stuns when he drops Black Powder for D/P. If he manages to get in stealth, stealth as well if you have access to it, use a cooldown to avoid the damage, or at the very least, attempt to be unpredictable as to try to lure out a facestab.

I’ve played a lot of other professions (Engi, Necro, Warrior, Mesmer) and Thieves were always pretty easy to handle to me. The only ones that put up a challenge are the good ones, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Rahar.9872:

As a Thief main, I think backstab is fine. The counterplay isn’t in the backstab itself, but in the stealthing. There’s plenty of counterplay involved in keeping a D/D or D/P Thief from stealthing, and proposing that blinding powder or something is used means that the Thief loses out on a cooldown, stunbreaker, and possibly initiative, depending on the utility swapped out. If he’s Shadow Arts, his damage is pathetic anyway. Blind him and block him as D/D, and use your dazes/stuns when he drops Black Powder for D/P. If he manages to get in stealth, stealth as well if you have access to it, use a cooldown to avoid the damage, or at the very least, attempt to be unpredictable as to try to lure out a facestab.

I’ve played a lot of other professions (Engi, Necro, Warrior, Mesmer) and Thieves were always pretty easy to handle to me. The only ones that put up a challenge are the good ones, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Once again, you make the same mistake that many players make when it comes to understanding counterplay. What you describe are stealth “preventions” not stealth counterplay. I’ll just post what I wrote from another thread:

None of what you listed are counters though. People seem to be perplexed at what the word counter means:

1. To meet or return (a blow) by another blow.
2. To move or act in opposition to; oppose.
3. To offer in response: countered that she was too busy to be thorough.
To move, act, or respond so as to be in opposition.

What you and others are describing is stealth “prevention”. Prevention is not the same as a counter.

Prevention:
1. the act or practice of stopping something bad from happening : the act of preventing something

That is a significant difference. There are lots of potential “stealth preventions” in game. But there exists only one counter throughout all eight classes.

By nature a counter is something that delivers equal force but of the opposite polarity. Lets take a look at the counters available in gw2 at this time:

1. Fear, Stunned, Daze, Knockdown, Knockback —-———-Stability & Stun Breaker
2. Boons —-— Boon Strip/Corruption
3. Protection boon —-—— Vulnerability
4. Regeneration boon —-—- burning, bleeding, torment
5. Healing —-—- Poison
6. Endurance —-—- Weakness
7. Swiftness —-—- Cripple, Chill, Immobilize
8. Stealth —-—- Sic em

As you see there is a pattern, the counter is the opposite of the skill it opposes.
Here is how this list would would look like if the understanding of counter according to certain people in this thread were true:

1. Fear, Stunned, Daze, Knockdown, Knockback —-———-Dodge/Evade
2. Boons —-— Do more damage
3. Protection boon —-—— Do more damage
4. Regeneration boon —-—- Do more damage
5. Healing —-—- Interrupt them
6. Endurance —-—- Make them waste all of their dodges
7. Swiftness —-—- Kill them before they can use swiftness
8. Stealth —-—- Interrupt them

Fighting vs. backstab thieves is really fun. I’d hate to see such a fun part of the game get changed.

Different builds will need to play differently vs. thieves to succeed. When playing engineer with a pistol, I’ll let them stealth because I have plenty of tools to survive their burst and very few ranged interrupts. When playing engineer with a rifle, I’ll usually try to interrupt, because I have fewer tools to survive burst and much shorter cooldowns on my interrupts.

I feel that is better than giving professions a “thief counter” button. The devs are working to reduce hard counters, not increase them. Rock/paper/scissors is kind of cool I guess, but I’d hate to play GW2 that way: “ah a stealth build, good thing I have stealth counter skills!” While the thief says “oh no that guy has stealth counter skills! I can’t fight him! Shortbow out!”

While I have nothing to suggest, I agree that something needs to be done. I play strictly Thief but avoid full glass cannon because of how unfair it feels. Sure the Thief that blows CD to two shot someone will be very handicapped for a while, but that’s looking only at the big picture.

From a 1v1 perspective, especially if the target is jumped without a fair chance to react, it can be extremely frustrating, and in that frustration people (myself included to an extent) will feel the need to adapt their builds too specifically to counter Thieves. I don’t believe any other class is causing that kind of pressure in the meta, except maybe Warriors (could be because I play Thief). In any case, it shouldn’t be that way.

I think its pretty lame but it wont be changed if it has not since release.
That said, stop trying to change the game and instead change the way you play. Its the only way to stay sane and have fun.

glhf

Fortus.6175:

anywhere from 8k-10k ( in PvP) or 14-16k (in WvW)

These numbers are inflated beyond belief. To even remotely reach these numbers, the thief has to sacrifice any type of stealth utility skills. A typical backstab will do around 5 to 6k damage to a target with full health and 7 to 8k to a target with less than 50% health in spvp.

Fortus.6175:

cannot be blocked and does not reveal the thief until it is dispensed. Neither block/evade/blind will apply reveal and negate the damage.

It can be blocked, evaded, blinded, etc. In fact, the moment you see your block/blind/evade proc is the moment you should immediately about face and smash the thief’s face in. The thief will get a face stab for about 2 – 3k damage (very manageable) and will get revealed and be put into melee range (very dangerous for a thief).

This is just the bare minimum to counter a thief. There are many other ways to counter thieves.

The video you posted was a video of a thief against: Absolutely. Terrible. Players. A montage does not prove anything as editing does quite a bit of heavy lifting.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Fortus.6175:

anywhere from 8k-10k ( in PvP) or 14-16k (in WvW)

These numbers are inflated beyond belief. To even remotely reach these numbers, the thief has to sacrifice any type of stealth utility skills. A typical backstab will do around 5 to 6k damage to a target with full health and 7 to 8k to a target with less than 50% health in spvp.

Fortus.6175:

cannot be blocked and does not reveal the thief until it is dispensed. Neither block/evade/blind will apply reveal and negate the damage.

It can be blocked, evaded, blinded, etc. In fact, the moment you see your block/blind/evade proc is the moment you should immediately about face and smash the thief’s face in. The thief will get a face stab for about 2 – 3k damage (very manageable) and will get revealed and be put into melee range (very dangerous for a thief).

This is just the bare minimum to counter a thief. There are many other ways to counter thieves.

The video you posted was a video of a thief against: Absolutely. Terrible. Players. A montage does not prove anything as editing does quite a bit of heavy lifting.

I have yet to read the counter you are trying to advocate.

Aza.2105:

I have yet to read the counter you are trying to advocate.

I guess I will re-state it then:

It can be blocked, evaded, blinded, etc. In fact, the moment you see your block/blind/evade proc is the moment you should immediately about face and smash the thief’s face in. The thief will get a face stab for about 2 – 3k damage (very manageable) and will get revealed and be put into melee range (very dangerous for a thief).

This is a bare minimum. There are counter plays against thieves who use shadowstep (stand in the return circle, while pressuring the thief: a warrior with longbow + pindown into arcing arrow can ruin a thief’s day). There are counter plays against thieves who use blackpowder (aoe the area, interrupt the heartseeker, attack the area where the thief heartseekered to, at the bare minimum you can stand in the blackpowder and get hit for a 2k heartseeker revealing the thief). Mostly pay attention to what is going on around the area.

In the video the OP posted, a typical tell is when you see the thief pops all his signets. The fact that the people in the video didn’t have eyes on the thief throws up big red flags for me – this is a case of just paying attention.

All of this is in WvW, mind you – where the typical player will completely eat a killshot, charging the warrior seeing the glowing gun and knee down. In sPvP perma stealth thieves or thieves that devote their entire utility bar to signets are absolutely terrible builds.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Aza.2105:

I have yet to read the counter you are trying to advocate.

I guess I will re-state it then:

It can be blocked, evaded, blinded, etc. In fact, the moment you see your block/blind/evade proc is the moment you should immediately about face and smash the thief’s face in. The thief will get a face stab for about 2 – 3k damage (very manageable) and will get revealed and be put into melee range (very dangerous for a thief).

This is a bare minimum. There are counter plays against thieves who use shadowstep (stand in the return circle, while pressuring the thief: a warrior with longbow + pindown into arcing arrow can ruin a thief’s day). There are counter plays against thieves who use blackpowder (aoe the area, interrupt the heartseeker, attack the area where the thief heartseekered to, at the bare minimum you can stand in the blackpowder and get hit for a 2k heartseeker revealing the thief). Mostly pay attention to what is going on around the area.

In the video the OP posted, a typical tell is when you see the thief pops all his signets. The fact that the people in the video didn’t have eyes on the thief throws up big red flags for me – this is a case of just paying attention.

All of this is in WvW, mind you – where the typical player will completely eat a killshot, charging the warrior seeing the glowing gun and knee down. In sPvP perma stealth thieves or thieves that devote their entire utility bar to signets are absolutely terrible builds.

You are describing stealth prevention. Not stealth counter.

Aza.2105:

You are describing stealth prevention. Not stealth counter.

What are you talking about? Anything that prevents/mitigates the backstab is a successful counter to a thief that relies on backstabbing their target.

Oh, you’re talking about this nonsense:

“People seem to be perplexed at what the word counter means”

What you want, seems to be more hard counters into the game. They are not needed or wanted by most of the PvP community. The existance of diamond skin, berserker stance, Automated Response, are all examples of traits/skills that people constantly complain about.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Aza.2105:

You are describing stealth prevention. Not stealth counter.

What are you talking about? Anything that prevents/mitigates the backstab is a successful counter to a thief that relies on backstabbing their target.

Oh, you’re talking about this nonsense:

“People seem to be perplexed at what the word counter means”

What you want, seems to be more hard counters into the game. They are not needed or wanted by most of the PvP community. The existance of diamond skin, berserker stance, Automated Response, are all examples of traits/skills that people constantly complain about.

The fact is what you are talking about has nothing to do with a counter at all. Like I wrote, the definition of the word counter seems to just fly over most players heads for whatever reason.

Anet themselves even stated before they changed sic em to give the debuff reveal, that there was no counter to stealth in game. However they didn’t say that there was no stealth prevention. The two terms are grossly different, but people tend to mix and match the two as if they are the same.

Diamond skin, automated response and berserker stance are all failures at creating a counter to the condition meta. Anything that makes the character completely immune, is bad for the game.

A lot of complaint about backstab from what I’ve read seems to be focused around it not having any drawbacks. The problem is that the drawbacks of a backstab thief are incredible. Building a backstab thief that can land 10+ k crits like that basically requires you to give up everything else. Condi removal, hp, armor and requires a good investiment into supporting utilities, and after all of that the thief will only be able to backstab well. I don’t see any problem at all with a character putting everything into being able to hit hard while sacrificing everything else and then hitting hard. What’s the problem with that? more importantly, because of the way anet designed thieves, what else is it you expect them to do? They lack any meaningful aoe, all but 3 of their weapon sets are all but useless outside of kitten ing, leaves can take harder hits than them, condi removal is a joke beyond reason, and the entire community hates them because they can stealth. I mean yeah getting backstabbed by a thief hurts, but that’s the point of a glass cannon, hit hard and hope you don’t break in the process.

4 signet build 12k hp and to utilities once the burst wen through. honest truth is this is what just about no thief in WvW runs. It is too squishy. Lets be honest how many times has that build been nerfed already? I really is that squish a stiff wind could do the job.

BTW on my S/P thief this happened to me the other day the other guy was just faster. In general though if you can see them and pop your offense first they just don’t have the defense to stop you from bursting them first.

14k+ Backstabs in WvW might be possible under laboratory conditions. But its definitely not the average case. The most common D/D build for WvW is either 10/30/30 or 0/30/30/10. With those builds backstabs hit fully stuffed 80s for an average damage of 4k-7k depending on your opponents defense. Thats with 105%+ crit damage and 25 bloodlust stacks.

Backstab has POSITIONAL stealth required skill coefficient of 2.40

Guardian has Whirling Wrath skill coefficient of 2.8 (.4×7=2.8)
Mesmer has Blurred Frenzy skill coefficient of 2.37 (8×0.2970=2.3763)
Warrior has Hundred Blades skill coefficient of 5.5 (8×0.55 + last hit 1.1=5.5)

Don’t get me started on condi builds…

Anyone can do insane damage if they walk around with tissue armor. Try it out, see how fun it is.

I’m amazed at the absolutely ludicrous numbers being thrown around here. 8-10k Backstabs in sPvP? 14-16k in WvW? On what planet is this a regular occurrence?

Did we not watch the video?

Auesis.7301:

I’m amazed at the absolutely ludicrous numbers being thrown around here. 8-10k Backstabs in sPvP? 14-16k in WvW? On what planet is this a regular occurrence?

Running a full Signet build that instantaneously melts between 45 second periods and gibbing upleveled people does not count as a regular occurrence. I’ve yet to see an sPvP video demonstrating those regular 8-10k hits either. Maybe against an Elementalist in a Berserker amulet after they’ve already been hurt badly and thus trigger some damage modifiers.

dylan.5409:

Did we not watch the video?

Like has been pointed out, you have to build in a specific way to get backstabs that high, and you’re left quite helpless after the initial burst. There’s no survivability, and the guy in the video dies a lot too but you don’t see that ofcourse. Not many thieves play this build because of these facts, there’s little variety to the build (it’s basically a one-trick pony), you die from a gust of wind and messing up your combo means death against any competent player. The usual thief build does maybe a little over half the backstab damage. So yes, the numbers the OP gave are greatly inflated. It’s not a regular occurence, and building for that damage comes with sacrificing everything else.

The problem is this kind of mechanic has no counterplay, AND toughness ain’t gonna help with a Thieves; they will hit hard with whatever spell even if you have 2000 Toughness, when they can go around with 900 Toughness managing their surv with multiple dodges, evades and stealths.

The fact the survivability of the Thief is reduced while playing with this build doesn’t really matters. In a teamfight it’s enough if they go for an istantshot attack on the focused target, after that he wasted all his Defensive cooldowns, to achieve a sure kill, then the Thief can stealth and reset the fight, giving an huge advantage to his team.
It’s a too much imbalanced situation.
And be honest. Just bad Thieves gonna get shotted given their frailty, it’s a matter of using smartly your tools.
Just stop climbing mirrors and declare what’s real.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcPbG1TCNxVY even with bs thiefs are weak.

Would you please argue without these ignorance declarations please?