Guild Wars 2

It has been discussed more frequently lately in the Mesmer forums; moving Deceptive Evasion down to the Adept (Major) tier would immensely improve the profession’s build diversity, and with their current state in the PvP (sPvP and WvW) meta, it’s much needed.

The Dueling trait line is already so good because it’s filled with great traits, so there will always be incentive to invest deeply into the line. However, moving Deceptive Evasion down to the Adept tier alone would increase the amount of viable build options tenfold. There are very, very few Mesmer specs that don’t require this trait, to the point that it has essentially become as much a class mechanic as our shatter skills.

Having those extra ten points free to put elsewhere would result in a multitude of new options for Mesmers to spec into and create new builds. Thoughts?

I would love for this to happen. However I don’t see anyone in the community being behind this except mesmer players.

It would be very helpful to improving mesmer gameplay no doubt. It would greatly increase our build diversity as well…

However given Anets history handling mesmers I don’t see it happening. I may suggest instead of moving it down (would not be against move it down), reduce the cooldowns on several (all mesmer weapons.)

Right after release all mesmer weapons summons had their CDs increased by 20% where we really were able to pump out clones faster than we could even try to shatter them. So maybe if ANet doesn’t want to move DE down… Maybe this is more reasonable?

jportell.2197:

I would love for this to happen. However I don’t see anyone in the community being behind this except mesmer players.

But, realistically, what argument is there against it? Mesmers are fairly “low” on the tier scale as far as sPvP and WvW is concerned right now, with the exception of PU builds, which are an issue due to PU and/or clone-death traits, not Deceptive Evasion.

They’re utility bots, first and foremost, and assuming the feature patch doesn’t change that, I’d say this proposed change would really help bring them up a bit.

They go back to the idea about not creating new clones if you have 3 up when you dodge, then fine i wouldn’t mind it going down to 15point trait. If not – Then it should stay where it is.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

They go back to the idea about not creating new clones if you have 3 up when you dodge, then fine i wouldn’t mind it going down to 15point trait. If not – Then it should stay where it is.

For the purpose of negating clone-death builds? Why not just solve that issue at its source and nerf Debilitating Dissipation instead?

It would increase the mesmers builds indeed.
I can only see this happen in PvE. In PvP i dont think they will ever do that.

Jackums.3496:

jportell.2197:

I would love for this to happen. However I don’t see anyone in the community being behind this except mesmer players.

But, realistically, what argument is there against it? Mesmers are fairly “low” on the tier scale as far as sPvP and WvW is concerned right now, with the exception of PU builds, which are an issue due to PU and/or clone-death traits, not Deceptive Evasion.

They’re utility bots, first and foremost, and assuming the feature patch doesn’t change that, I’d say this proposed change would really help bring them up a bit.

I’m not disagreeing with your logic. I had asked for this last year around this time. Moving this down would open up HUGE build diversity options for mesmer such as actually being able to to take things like shattered conditions without losing IP or DE.

However it is highly unlikely. There is no real reason for ANET to not consider it and possibly do it.
There is no real rational argument against it, but when has this community ever been rational when it comes to arguing points against mesmers?

Who knows it may be something they are doing in the feature patch. They did say that the stuff talked about in ready up isn’t the only included trait changes in the feature patch.

So maybe?

Jackums.3496:

It has been discussed more frequently lately in the Mesmer forums; moving Deceptive Evasion down to the Adept (Major) tier would immensely improve the profession’s build diversity, and with their current state in the PvP (sPvP and WvW) meta, it’s much needed.

I personally disagree and I have seen many people disagree in the Mesmer forums, too.

Moving down DE a tier does not improve build diversity. It just open ups 10 points. DE will still be mandatory. Shatter builds will still lack build diversity.

I’ll just repost my most recent comment.

Moving down DE to Adept

Again, DE is too powerful to be Adept. It will also not increase build diversity. Most shatter Mesmers will go 30/10/0/0/30. Some might go 20/10/0/10/30 for more Vigor instead of more CC power. But where is the diversity here?

If you want diversity among shatter Mesmers then ANet has to reduce the impact of mandatory traits or remove them. As Carighan said, DE would have to go. Right now, regardless of what kind of shatter Mesmer you are, you will want to go for DE. Even non shatter Mesmers benefit a lot when picking this trait. Its impact on the overall performance of Mesmers is way too high. If DE was removed all Clone skills could have their cooldowns adjusted if needed.

However, there will also be a downside to this. DE actually offers a very interesting mechanic which opens up combat tactics we would lose. I’m not sure if many Mesmers would like that.

Jackums.3496:

For the purpose of negating clone-death builds? Why not just solve that issue at its source and nerf Debilitating Dissipation instead?

Why should it be moved down at all? Mesmer have more builds that are viable that some other classes. So why is this such an issue i don’t know. If it is to be moved down, then something must be reduced/nerfed to compensate for it being moved down.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Jackums.3496:

For the purpose of negating clone-death builds? Why not just solve that issue at its source and nerf Debilitating Dissipation instead?

Why should it be moved down at all? Mesmer have more builds that are viable that some other classes. So why is this such an issue i don’t know. If it is to be moved down, then something must be reduced/nerfed to compensate for it being moved down.

In tournament PvP we have maybe a shatter build, and clone death builds (non-PU because it prevents point cap.)
Phantasm builds are useless
Lockdown builds are like Sasquatch… you hear of them but rarely see them.

In wvw mesmers only have trolly PU build because shatter has seen nothing but nerf that to be effective with it requires the enemy player to be a kitten .

jportell.2197:

In tournament PvP we have maybe a shatter build, and clone death builds (non-PU because it prevents point cap.)
Phantasm builds are useless
Lockdown builds are like Sasquatch… you hear of them but rarely see them.

At least you are useful in TPvP. Ele for example is pretty much awful in all forms of S/TPvP no matter the build. Though wanting such a change from a TINY portion of the game is just silly. Not considered WvW i take it?

Jackums.3496:

There are very, very few Mesmer specs that don’t require this trait, to the point that it has essentially become as much a class mechanic as our shatter skills.

I don’t know if you are talking pvp or pve, but I know I’ve spent probably 90% of my 1k hours on my mesmer playing without this trait in pvp, wvw, and pve. In pvp and wvw, all of that time has been spent playing pure shatter specs. About the only spec I would consider this trait being mandatory for would be a clone death condi spec, but even then there are still ways around it. Imo a crutch like this should require a 20 point investment. If you want build diversity learn how to play without crutches.

I will be honest, In beta this was a 15 point minor trait and in my opinion that worked considerably better. I would like to however see this become baseline, the mesmer does need some weapon independent way to allow for clone generation on demand. Either give us this somewhere easier to access within the tree or halve the cooldown on clone generation utilities. So long as clones remain a resource for shatter we are forced to generate them or lose access to our entire mechanic, I want more clones kitten it!

It’s a bandaid fix.

In the short term, it does allow Mesmers more flexibility with their builds.

In the long term, it doesn’t address the fundamental underlying problem that the Mesmer’s core toolkit isn’t up to scruff, and that they depend on this trait for the class to be usable.

Deceptive Evasion needs to be reworked (read: nerfed), and the Shatter output need to be added back into the core, untraited class somehow. I don’t mesmer much, so I don’t know how to do that, but from my levelling experience, the class just does not feel right on a fundamental level without that flow of clones that you get when you’ve got DE.

Maybe have all weapon-based clone skills generate two clones instead of one? idk

Re-posting my suggestion from the other mesmer thread.

I would like to see more methods of clone generation that doesn’t depend on dodge.

Something like a new master domination trait:

Whenever you interrupt a foe, summon an illusion at your location.

It would allow mesmers a way out from having to spend 20 points in dueling in order to be shatter-viable without breaking the current shatter specs or making them useless.

DE should be a class feature and not traited at all. Only then will build diversity open up for mesmers. It doesn’t matter if you don’t like the sound of that, it’s the truth.

Well there is a WHOLE lot of possible builds that cant be used because you need 20 in dueling to have enough clones to use them, but in order to get all the other traits you need 60 points not in dueling, if it was moved down we might actually be able to use our own class mechanics in more than 1 or 2 builds.

Xaylin.1860:

Moving down DE a tier does not improve build diversity. It just open ups 10 points. DE will still be mandatory. Shatter builds will still lack build diversity.

10 spare points is build diversity, because you’re not forced to go 20 into Dueling, and therefore have more points to allocate elsewhere (ie. diversity).

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Jackums.3496:

For the purpose of negating clone-death builds? Why not just solve that issue at its source and nerf Debilitating Dissipation instead?

Why should it be moved down at all? Mesmer have more builds that are viable that some other classes. So why is this such an issue i don’t know. If it is to be moved down, then something must be reduced/nerfed to compensate for it being moved down.

Have you played any form of PvP mode recently? (ie. tPvP or small-scale WvW) They hardly have any range of “viable” builds. The closest we have is shatter in tPvP (which is hard-countered by Thieves, and are inferior back-cappers) and PU for WvW roaming (which is a single build that’s actually reliable to roam with in the condi meta).

Bringing up Eles doesn’t negate the issue.

Ross Biddle.2367:

DE should be a class feature and not traited at all. Only then will build diversity open up for mesmers. It doesn’t matter if you don’t like the sound of that, it’s the truth.

This was what I was initially going to suggest, but it seems too drastic and would generate too much whine to really be considered.

jportell.2197:

However it is highly unlikely. There is no real reason for ANET to not consider it and possibly do it.

The reason is balance and build diversity, the latter of which ANet constantly talk about wanting more of. I’d say that’s a pretty significant justification for the change.

Jackums.3496:

Xaylin.1860:

Moving down DE a tier does not improve build diversity. It just open ups 10 points. DE will still be mandatory. Shatter builds will still lack build diversity.

10 spare points is build diversity, because you’re not forced to go 20 into Dueling, and therefore have more points to allocate elsewhere (ie. diversity).

How is it build diversity when still everybody picks DE?
How is it build diversity when the remaining 10 points all land in the same spot?

When talking about shatter Mesmers, even if they don’t all pick the same trait, are 10 differently spent points considered ‘build diversity’ if literally everything besides that is the same, plays the same and performs almost the same?

Xaylin.1860:

Jackums.3496:

Xaylin.1860:

Moving down DE a tier does not improve build diversity. It just open ups 10 points. DE will still be mandatory. Shatter builds will still lack build diversity.

10 spare points is build diversity, because you’re not forced to go 20 into Dueling, and therefore have more points to allocate elsewhere (ie. diversity).

How is it build diversity when still everybody picks DE?
How is it build diversity when the remaining 10 points all land in the same spot?

When talking about shatter Mesmers, even if they don’t all pick the same trait, are 10 differently spent points considered ‘build diversity’ if literally everything besides that is the same, plays the same and performs almost the same?

Not a Mesmer, but I do understand such “class defining” traits as problematic. Elementalists are in a similar predicament with Elemental Attunement.

Pursuant to this, why not make an alternate method for rapid clone generation for Mesmers, such as triggering on-weapon-swap or extending Decoy’s functionality for clone generation to more utilities?

Or are you more into arguing for differences in kind? As in, pursuing non-clone dependant builds for Mesmer? The easiest example is probably Interrupt Mesmer, but even that still relies upon clones for defense and burst.

Xaylin.1860:

Jackums.3496:

Xaylin.1860:

Moving down DE a tier does not improve build diversity. It just open ups 10 points. DE will still be mandatory. Shatter builds will still lack build diversity.

10 spare points is build diversity, because you’re not forced to go 20 into Dueling, and therefore have more points to allocate elsewhere (ie. diversity).

How is it build diversity when still everybody picks DE?
How is it build diversity when the remaining 10 points all land in the same spot?

Because you can then take a combination of traits that weren’t possible to take together with Deceptive Evasion in the Master tier.

Eg. A 30/10/30/0/0 lockdown build, taking both Confounding Suggestions and Chaotic Interruptions without the need to hurt your build by giving up Deceptive Evasion as you’d be forced to if it required 20 points into Dueling, as it does now.

Different potential combinations of traits is build diversity.

From personal experience; trying to level a Mesmer always felt a little off until around 30 or so which is when you can get deceptive Evasion. Call it a crutch to prop up that kitten all one wants, but the class just does not seem to gel as well without it since the base line clone generation isn’t quite enough to satisfy.

Alternate suggestion: Leave DE where it is; but do a review of all the other weapon and utility skill methods of clone generation and tweak them down where appropriate; then alter DE to do something else not directly clone related.

So in tPvP earlier I ran a 30/10/30/0/0 lockdown build.
Staff and Sword/Focus….
On average my halting strike hit for 3k.
Easiest classes to interrupt were necros, eles, and rangers.
Hardest were thieves, mesmers, guards, and warriors.

The survivability was not that great. I still had the vigor but the inability to dodge and pop distortion was very frustrating and I felt limited.

Currently I feel like running any build without DE is just handicapping yourself. Yes mesmers can do amazing things without this trait… It was fun keeping a necro permanently locked down while my team wailed on him…. however if I was ever caught alone by anything I was done….

The risk/reward ratio for not taking DE is pretty bad. Anet needs to give us better defense capabilities that don’t revolve around our clones or make certain traits inherently part of the mesmer class.

MonMalthias.4763:

Pursuant to this, why not make an alternate method for rapid clone generation for Mesmers, such as triggering on-weapon-swap or extending Decoy’s functionality for clone generation to more utilities?

Someone recently suggested something regarding Clones on weapon swaps which actually is quite interesting. The issue with such a trait is that it would become yet another mandatory trait for shatter Mesmers (maybe not so much for others). I would also argue that it won’t create a lot of build diversity even if you could not take it with DE simultaneously. It basically is the same just tied to a different mechanic.

As for utilities, we already got Mirror Images. I actually could see this being beefed up to 3 Clones instead of 2. Phantasm Mesmers won’t care since they do not use it anyway. However, this would still be less powerful than the maximum potential of DE (max. 12 Clones per minute).

MonMalthias.4763:

Or are you more into arguing for differences in kind? As in, pursuing non-clone dependant builds for Mesmer? The easiest example is probably Interrupt Mesmer, but even that still relies upon clones for defense and burst.

I think ANet showed that they want us to play builds outside of Shatter and Phantasm. But as you said yourself, Mesmers still rely on Clone generation due to different reasons. As a result, DE is way to important for any Mesmer outside of a Phantasm build. Introducing additional ways to generate Clones through traits would just put more limitations onto build diversity. While I understand people reacting very harsh to suggestions like this I feel that there are only two solutions to this: Make DE innate to the Mesmer mechanic (note: other skills might have to be adjusted) or get rid of it completely.

Jackums.3496:

Because you can then take a combination of traits that weren’t possible to take together with Deceptive Evasion in the Master tier.

Eg. A 30/10/30/0/0 lockdown build, taking both Confounding Suggestions and Chaotic Interruptions without the need to hurt your build by giving up Deceptive Evasion as you’d be forced to if it required 20 points into Dueling, as it does now.

I was referring to shatter builds because a DE change would affect them the most. When talking about interrupt builds, people actually already play 30/10/30 builds. Interrupt builds depend on Clones a lot less in general as long as not running Imbued Diversion.

To go with your interrupt example, the current somewhat meta set up is 20/20/30 for every non-shatter centered interrupt build. With your suggested change some might be more inclined to go 30/10/30 than as it is now. However, many might still go 20/20/30 because they need either Blade Training or Duelists Discipline. The result is a 20/10/30 meta set up with spare 10 points.

The thing which bothers me: People are just way too used to permanently running DE that they can’t even imagine doing fine without it (e.g. 30/10/30). And even if you could not do without DE – never ever – then moving it down is the wrong thing to do. Because this would hint at a substantial issue with the class design which requires a more throughout rework than just moving it down a tier.

Jackums.3496:

Different potential combinations of traits is build diversity.

I personally don’t see many new builds opening up with your suggested change. But I’m always open for theorycrafting and discussing potential builds. If you feel that 10 differently spent points equal build diversity I can accept this as your opinion. However, I personally disagree.

Overkillengine.6084:

From personal experience; trying to level a Mesmer always felt a little off until around 30 or so which is when you can get deceptive Evasion. Call it a crutch to prop up that kitten all one wants, but the class just does not seem to gel as well without it since the base line clone generation isn’t quite enough to satisfy.

I personally think that this perfectly describes the issue. Our ‘resource’ generation is way to reliant on DE. To pick up the topic of changing DE instead of making it more accessible I’d like to throw two ideas into the discussion. One is rather uninspired but probably easier to implement. The second is a bit more difficult but preserves the combat tactics which would be lost if DE was removed.

‘Removing’ DE

• Remove Clone generation from DE
• Reduce cooldown of at least one Illusion related skill per weapon(set)
• Improve Mirror Images (lower cooldown or additional Clone or both)
• DE now causes Confusion to nearby enemies (see Warrior)
• Confusing Combatants becomes ‘Deal x% more damage against confused foes.’

This change is rather straight forward. The reduced weapon cooldowns will compensate for the loss of Clone generation from DE. Improving Mirror Images might be necessary since weapon skills can’t make up for 100% of the lost Clone generation due to their other effects. The new effect of DE is just a simple idea I feel could work well for Duelling.

Incorporating DE into the class mechanic

• Change DE and Confusing Combatants as mentioned above
• Do not change weapon skills
• Mesmers now innately generate 1 Clone per dodge. 10s ICD
• This Clone won’t be triggered if 3 Phantasms are active
• Add a fourth larger Illusion ‘bubble’ which shows the cooldown of the dodge Clone

This change quite obviously is a bit more complicated. As a result, every Mesmer will have 6 more Clones per minute without traiting for it. Right now, DE potentially provides 12 Clones per minute but since we would get it for free a smaller amount feels reasonable. The Clone not triggering with 3 active Phantasms is needed to not tamper with Phantasm builds. The interface change is important to make the Clone generation predictable and enables more tactical dodging. If needed weapon skill cooldowns could be altered later on.

Xaylin.1860:

I was referring to shatter builds because a DE change would affect them the most. When talking about interrupt builds, people actually already play 30/10/30 builds. Interrupt builds depend on Clones a lot less in general as long as not running Imbued Diversion.

To go with your interrupt example, the current somewhat meta set up is 20/20/30 for every non-shatter centered interrupt build. With your suggested change some might be more inclined to go 30/10/30 than as it is now. However, many might still go 20/20/30 because they need either Blade Training or Duelists Discipline. The result is a 20/10/30 meta set up with spare 10 points.

My point wasn’t that there aren’t other pre-existing builds similar to that.

I was making a point of the fact that many builds have potential for improvement if they only required 10 points in Dueling as opposed to the full 20.

The example I gave was of a more effective interrupt build.

Xaylin.1860:

The thing which bothers me: People are just way too used to permanently running DE that they can’t even imagine doing fine without it (e.g. 30/10/30). And even if you could not do without DE – never ever – then moving it down is the wrong thing to do. Because this would hint at a substantial issue with the class design which requires a more throughout rework than just moving it down a tier.

People don’t run DE just because they want to. Are you honestly suggesting that Mesmers are just as powerful without it? Have you played tPvP or roamed in WvW recently? Deceptive Evasion is necessary, because without it we’re significantly weaker.

Jackums.3496:

Xaylin.1860:

The thing which bothers me: People are just way too used to permanently running DE that they can’t even imagine doing fine without it (e.g. 30/10/30). And even if you could not do without DE – never ever – then moving it down is the wrong thing to do. Because this would hint at a substantial issue with the class design which requires a more throughout rework than just moving it down a tier.

People don’t run DE just because they want to. Are you honestly suggesting that Mesmers are just as powerful without it? Have you played tPvP or roamed in WvW recently? Deceptive Evasion is necessary, because without it we’re significantly weaker.

As I already said: If you feel that DE is a necessity than moving it down one tier is pointless. In this case it should be innate. Everything else would be a halfhearted solution because it doesn’t adress the real issue of the class. Don’t sugarcoat it with ‘more build diversity’.

I love my Mesmer, and I love Deceptive Evasion, but this trait is too build-defining to be Adept. It should not be accessible to every Mesmer build, and should require some depth of investment for what it does.

I totally agree on Xaylin’s 2nd option.

Though I think this will still hurt for clone death builds. Eventhough these builds are really kittened, they already get nerfed next patch with the vigor nerf so maybe add the passive effect with an 10sec IC and keep DE like it is now so it will remove the IC when taken.

I feel that we should have temporary clones on dodges as a class trait (we just have it), when we dodge a clone dodges the opposite direction and then immediate dissolves harmlessly. Looks 100% perfect.

25 or 30 in Duelling could be that stay around, Deceptive Evasion.

Would the temporary clones be shatterable? Typically they’d only need to last 2-3s to be useful for that.

Xaylin.1860:

Jackums.3496:

Xaylin.1860:

The thing which bothers me: People are just way too used to permanently running DE that they can’t even imagine doing fine without it (e.g. 30/10/30). And even if you could not do without DE – never ever – then moving it down is the wrong thing to do. Because this would hint at a substantial issue with the class design which requires a more throughout rework than just moving it down a tier.

People don’t run DE just because they want to. Are you honestly suggesting that Mesmers are just as powerful without it? Have you played tPvP or roamed in WvW recently? Deceptive Evasion is necessary, because without it we’re significantly weaker.

As I already said: If you feel that DE is a necessity than moving it down one tier is pointless. In this case it should be innate. Everything else would be a halfhearted solution because it doesn’t adress the real issue of the class. Don’t sugarcoat it with ‘more build diversity’.

It has nothing to do with how I feel. It is a necessity, and spending any substantial amount of time playing competitive PvP would make that quite clear to you, which I’m assuming you haven’t, based on your responses so far.

Nothing is being sugar-coated. Moving DE down, and therefore lowering its cost, would give us more options in building our specs. That’s a fact.

And, yes, of course making it an innate ability for the Mesmer would be ideal, but as I already explained earlier in the topic, the likelihood of that happening is quite low, IMO, and so I never even suggested it to begin with.

Jackums.3496:

It has nothing to do with how I feel. It is a necessity, and spending any substantial amount of time playing competitive PvP would make that quite clear to you, which I’m assuming you haven’t, based on your responses so far.

Is this going to lead in the direction of non-competitive PvPers not having a clue about anything? I would be extremly disappointed because spending a lot of time ingame or being good at something has nothing to do with the ability to analyse or understand certain mechanics and interrelation within a game.

I don’t play competitive PvP, no. I do play PvP quite frequently, though.

Jackums.3496:

Nothing is being sugar-coated. Moving DE down, and therefore lowering its cost, would give us more options in building our specs. That’s a fact.

I was talking about sugarcoating because people frequently try to advertise/justify very weird proposals on the forum by naming build diversity as their goal. Therefore, I might be a bit sensitive about it. While I don’t think your suggestion is weird I feel that your idea does not solve the problem.

• The lackluster resource generation is the issue, not the cost of DE
• DE would remain mandatory. Certainly no build diversity here.
• (Subjective) 10 additional trait points don’t equal build diversity either.

Build diversity can only be promoted by providing alternatives which result in equally powerful builds (powerful not necessarily meaning damage). Otherwise it is just moving around some trait points. That is why I would not like DE being moved down a tier.

When you think longterm, moving DE up to the GM tier might actually result in more build diversity than moving it down. People would have to decide wether to frequently shatter (DE) or have strong shatters (IP) or maybe both but sacrifice a lot of survivability/support in return. It might also lead to buffs to the baseline performance of Mesmers. Because right now, DE makes up for many shortcommings we have. ANet won’t recognize it as long as almost everyone runs DE.

There are also other issues linked to your suggestion.

• DE is way too strong to be Adept.
• It improves meta builds. I’m scared when thinking about 30/10/0/0/30.

Jackums.3496:

And, yes, of course making it an innate ability for the Mesmer would be ideal, but as I already explained earlier in the topic, the likelihood of that happening is quite low, IMO, and so I never even suggested it to begin with.

Oh, really?

So maybe I do have a clue what I’m talking about?

You are right that the likelihood of my idea is lower. I’m afraid though that your proposed change will do more harm than good. I’d rather not see it happen.

Xaylin.1860:

right now, DE makes up for many shortcommings we have. ANet won’t recognize it as long as almost everyone runs DE.

This. This this this.

Tear it down and build the class up again. Might hurt in the short term, but the class will be better for it in the long term.

No thanks.

PU mesmers are already strong enough and even more condition application on clone death (debilitating dissipation) would just be over the top.

deceptive evasion is in the master tier in the name of balance. It’s there on purpose so that in order to get an incredible strong trait you need to sacrifice other aspects of your build. that is to say you can’t have prismatic understand AND illusionary persona while still having deceptive evasion. must choose one or the other. it’s fine as is.

Deleting my other post and reposting from the other thread since Jackums pointed out this thread existed…

Motivation for Post
I play mesmer but also many other classes so I am not crying for a buff or a nerf. I like having dueling and DE but would love more options when thinking about build tradeoffs. The very fact that I have to think about my build as “Where do I put my other 50 points, after getting DE?” shows how messed up this situation is.

My Proposal/Suggestion:
1) Move DE to Illusions Trait Line as a Major Master

2) Add a “Make Illusion on weapon swap” to Dueling in its place, either as major adept or major master, depending on balance. I wouldn’t think changing the minor traits make much sense (although perhaps this trait as a minor grandmaster would be nice, as the confusion is barely noticeable with any build currently)

3) Remove/combine/rework some of the traits in illusions that nobody cares about to make room for DE

Good Results:
DE becomes slightly less powerful because it does not synergize with Critical Infusion (vigor on critical) in dueling but more powerful because it does fit more naturally with the shatter trait line.

There is still a valid and controlled way to get a clone in dueling (which has other on swap traits for some classes, viz the ranger)

Shatter builds could start coming in more flavors, ones that use both the clone on swap and ones that do not. This would buff the pure shatter for sure, but that is a bit needed in terms of being on par with the PU build. It may also spawn many hybrid builds that take 20 in something other than dueling because they are happy with just the DE in Illusions.

Given what I see PU players using, this tones down the PU build by forcing them to spread points more if they want DE for clone on death AND other good stuff in dueling(ie vigor, bleed on crit minors).

May encourage more hybrid phantasm builds as well, since it does not couple clone creation to the dodge for survival mechanic. I do admit it doesn’t do much to help phantasms, but does allow them to at least dodge without overwriting a phantasm, but perhaps they would complain that now they can’t weapon swap. Then again, why are they taking any clone generation traits?

This is just one idea, but I do think “clone on swap” just enter the game somehow, as a way to generate illusions besides DE and the long recharge skills on weapons.

Jackums.3496:

People don’t run DE just because they want to. Are you honestly suggesting that Mesmers are just as powerful without it? Have you played tPvP or roamed in WvW recently? Deceptive Evasion is necessary, because without it we’re significantly weaker.

Since you failed to respond to my first post, Ill post again. DE is not a necessity for any playstyle or any game mode in guild wars 2. It is a crutch, pure and simple. Does it make certain things easier to handle? Sure it does. Are there other just as useful traits/weapon skills/utilities for handling those same things? Yes there are. Saying that without a certain trait, the class is significantly weaker is the reason why it is a trait in the first place… Mesmer is perfectly capable of performing at the top level in pve/pvp/wvw without this trait, just because you haven’t figured out doesn’t mean it isnt possible.

CrazyCanuck.4265:

Since you failed to respond to my first post, Ill post again. DE is not a necessity for any playstyle or any game mode in guild wars 2. It is a crutch, pure and simple. Does it make certain things easier to handle? Sure it does. Are there other just as useful traits/weapon skills/utilities for handling those same things? Yes there are. Saying that without a certain trait, the class is significantly weaker is the reason why it is a trait in the first place… Mesmer is perfectly capable of performing at the top level in pve/pvp/wvw without this trait, just because you haven’t figured out doesn’t mean it isnt possible.

Um.

Have you figured out how? I’m genuinely curious how someone can play a mesmer viably at top level spvp without using DE.

Sarrs.4831:

CrazyCanuck.4265:

Since you failed to respond to my first post, Ill post again. DE is not a necessity for any playstyle or any game mode in guild wars 2. It is a crutch, pure and simple. Does it make certain things easier to handle? Sure it does. Are there other just as useful traits/weapon skills/utilities for handling those same things? Yes there are. Saying that without a certain trait, the class is significantly weaker is the reason why it is a trait in the first place… Mesmer is perfectly capable of performing at the top level in pve/pvp/wvw without this trait, just because you haven’t figured out doesn’t mean it isnt possible.

Um.

Have you figured out how? I’m genuinely curious how someone can play a mesmer viably at top level spvp without using DE.

By choosing other traits aside from Deceptive Evasion? I can’t even tell if this is a serious question..

CrazyCanuck.4265:

Sarrs.4831:

CrazyCanuck.4265:

Since you failed to respond to my first post, Ill post again. DE is not a necessity for any playstyle or any game mode in guild wars 2. It is a crutch, pure and simple. Does it make certain things easier to handle? Sure it does. Are there other just as useful traits/weapon skills/utilities for handling those same things? Yes there are. Saying that without a certain trait, the class is significantly weaker is the reason why it is a trait in the first place… Mesmer is perfectly capable of performing at the top level in pve/pvp/wvw without this trait, just because you haven’t figured out doesn’t mean it isnt possible.

Um.

Have you figured out how? I’m genuinely curious how someone can play a mesmer viably at top level spvp without using DE.

By choosing other traits aside from Deceptive Evasion? I can’t even tell if this is a serious question..

Standard shatter builds are not viable without DE. On-clone-death builds are not viable without DE.

Lockdown builds occasionally sacrifice DE for the increased return of the lockdowns/interrupts. However, these builds are absolutely weaker in terms of maintaining sustained pressure or effectively fighting against high aoe due to the lack of clone production.

Phantasm builds are better played without DE, and most phantasm builds don’t take DE as a result.

In short, you’re completely wrong.

Edit: I noticed that you’ve claimed to have played most of 1k hours in PvP and WvW on a pure shatter spec without this trait. I’d like to make a note that just because you’ve done it doesn’t mean that it’s any good to do. I can play a phantasm build without any phantasm traits and using scepter/torch+scepter/torch, but that doesn’t make it a wise decision.

Moving DE to adept wouldn’t fix anything. In fact, it would go against build diversity, as all builds would be forced to go into 10 in dueling.

I see DE issue the same as IC. At first, IC was a minor adept trait, and all builds invested 5 points in illusions just because it gave a lot for so little. Because of that, there were only shatter and phantasm builds.When we knew it would be moved to grandmaster, forums fulled with tons of QQ and discussions, cause it felt IC was so important, moving it would be the end of mesmers.
But you know what? People adapted and learned to play without this trait. People started to theorycrafting with new mechanics, like clone-death or lockdown.
Then, devs saw IC wasn’t an adept, neither a grandmaster trait, so they let it where it belongs.

DE is too strong to be an adept trait. People would get too much dependent to it, as if we’re not enough.
I’m more with the line of changing DE to make it a core mechanic or putting more clone creating over other traits. That would truly open to have more build diversity and fix our dependence on DE.

PD: Pyro, I’ve been roaming this last days with a shatter 0/10/0/30/30. It’s true that DE makes your life much easier, but it’s also true that you can roam perfectly without it if you have enough tools to create more clones. It just takes more skill to control your illusions and shatters.

I honestly hate DE and have been forcing myself to play without it and I’ve been doing fine. Yes the dodge shatter move is cool, but honestly the required 20 points in dueling just sucks. DE is a dumb mechanic encouraging dodge spamming.

People don’t take DE because they want the clone on dodge, they take it because they want the increased clone generation. Honestly it’s a horrible way to increase clone production and they should remove it and decrease cd’s or give us other clone generating mechanisms.

Most importantly, these clone generation increasing talents should be in the Illusions (aka shatter) line where they belong, not dueling.

Seriously DE is the worst. Replace it with something else and the Mesmer class will benefit greatly.

@Ansau: That build however has the disadvantage of being mostly useless. You have no crit damage, no power, no crit chance, no damage boost from Dom I. You’ll hit like a wet noodle, so lets see what else it can do.

If you take shattered conditions, you can do some pretty high output aoe condition removal. Unfortunately, that’s totally it. That’s all you can do.

If you take restorative illusions, then you’ll be hard to kill. Unfortunately, you’ll have minimal utility and still no damage.

As I said before, you ‘can’ run builds like that, but just because you’ve done it doesn’t make them any good.

Pyroathiest.4168:

@Ansau: That build however has the disadvantage of being mostly useless. You have no crit damage, no power, no crit chance, no damage boost from Dom I. You’ll hit like a wet noodle, so lets see what else it can do.

If you take shattered conditions, you can do some pretty high output aoe condition removal. Unfortunately, that’s totally it. That’s all you can do.

If you take restorative illusions, then you’ll be hard to kill. Unfortunately, you’ll have minimal utility and still no damage.

As I said before, you ‘can’ run builds like that, but just because you’ve done it doesn’t make them any good.

Can you elaborate on why that particular build would do no damage? Not speaking from a build effectiveness point of view here, just the prospect of doing damage with a trait spread like that. I can maybe see your point in a PvP setting but WvW roaming? Seems there is an assumption that spending heavy trait points in lines other than domination/dueling automatically get written off like this. I don’t think it necessarily means you hit like a wet noodle. Are you making assumptions on the gear?

I have no idea what Ansau is running, but I threw something together for illustration – all berserker gear with those traits. I suppose you could even swap some cavalier’s in there for more toughness and still keep around 40% crit chance.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgAQNAsdWlknpQtdqxRNcrNSc6B0X+zR9Q7g/7lKwbA-zUBBYfCiZmFRjtMsIas6aYKXER1kCIixAA-w

Pyroathiest.4168:

Standard shatter builds are not viable without DE. On-clone-death builds are not viable without DE.

Lockdown builds occasionally sacrifice DE for the increased return of the lockdowns/interrupts. However, these builds are absolutely weaker in terms of maintaining sustained pressure or effectively fighting against high aoe due to the lack of clone production.

Phantasm builds are better played without DE, and most phantasm builds don’t take DE as a result.

In short, you’re completely wrong.

Edit: I noticed that you’ve claimed to have played most of 1k hours in PvP and WvW on a pure shatter spec without this trait. I’d like to make a note that just because you’ve done it doesn’t mean that it’s any good to do. I can play a phantasm build without any phantasm traits and using scepter/torch+scepter/torch, but that doesn’t make it a wise decision.

In short, you are actually completely wrong. Like I said before, just because you haven’t learned how to play without deceptive evasion and you still rely on it as a crutch doesn’t mean it isn’t possible or that the build is any worse off without it. I have played with DE in my builds before, but I’ve noticed almost 0 difference in the amount of clones that are involved in my shatter, and 0 difference in my survivability/damage output. If your sole purpose of running DE is to increase clone generation, then either you are not properly using the weapon skills already given to you, or you are just spamming your f1-f4 skills everytime they are off cooldown. If your sole purpose of running DE is to increase survivability then there are plenty of other traits/weapon skills/utilities that can do this just as well, if not better.

There is a huge difference between taking deceptive evasion in shatter builds and taking phantasm damage/cooldown traits in a phantasm build. Deceptive evasion does not directly increase your damage of your shatters, nor will it have any effect on your shatter if you already have 3 clones up when you dodge roll. The only trait I would consider is vital to a shatter build is illusionary persona as it is a 25% increase in the potential damage of your shatters on top of many other useful things.

Saying there’s 0 difference between starter with and without DE is plain wrong in my experience. Reason being clones die quickly vs melee cleave so if your clone creation is spaced out its hard to land a spike when you want to. The synergy between sword 2 and DE allows you to summon 2 clones in a very short timeframe on demand, which IMO is vital in a shatter build.

skcamow.3527:

Pyroathiest.4168:

@Ansau: That build however has the disadvantage of being mostly useless. You have no crit damage, no power, no crit chance, no damage boost from Dom I. You’ll hit like a wet noodle, so lets see what else it can do.

If you take shattered conditions, you can do some pretty high output aoe condition removal. Unfortunately, that’s totally it. That’s all you can do.

If you take restorative illusions, then you’ll be hard to kill. Unfortunately, you’ll have minimal utility and still no damage.

As I said before, you ‘can’ run builds like that, but just because you’ve done it doesn’t make them any good.

Can you elaborate on why that particular build would do no damage? Not speaking from a build effectiveness point of view here, just the prospect of doing damage with a trait spread like that. I can maybe see your point in a PvP setting but WvW roaming? Seems there is an assumption that spending heavy trait points in lines other than domination/dueling automatically get written off like this. I don’t think it necessarily means you hit like a wet noodle. Are you making assumptions on the gear?

I have no idea what Ansau is running, but I threw something together for illustration – all berserker gear with those traits. I suppose you could even swap some cavalier’s in there for more toughness and still keep around 40% crit chance.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgAQNAsdWlknpQtdqxRNcrNSc6B0X+zR9Q7g/7lKwbA-zUBBYfCiZmFRjtMsIas6aYKXER1kCIixAA-w

Well, there’s multiple reasons why the build wouldn’t be particularly good. Firstly, in order to achieve attack stats that are close to a normal shatter build, you’re required to gear up incredibly glassy. Your stats still aren’t quite up to what a normal shatter build would have, so you’re more glass and less cannon.

You miss out on domination I, so your basic burst will automatically be 20% weaker. That’s a very significant change. You also miss out on the option of taking shattered concentration. While you’ve taken the Disenchanter to help with boon stripping/condition management, you can’t always rely on it to strip the right boons at the right time. The reason Disenchanter works better in a phantasm/condie build is that those are both sustained damage builds, where the Disenchanter has time to chew away at boons. A shatter build doesn’t have that luxury.

There are other more indirect consequences to damage output as well. Since your clone generation is limited to weapon skills and mirror images, you have only 1 consistent burst every 35 seconds. What losing DE does is make a shatter build suddenly become incredibly predictable. You can’t maintain a high illusion count, because people will just mow through them. You’re forced to burst up illusions and then shatter rapidly. This telegraphs your burst enormously, making it much easier to dodge compared to a normal shatter build that is basically capable of shattering at any time.

Additionally, your build sacrifices a quite hefty amount of defense as well. You don’t have blink, and your on-demand condition removals are tied to your offense. This means that if you get hit with something nasty like long duration immob, chill, weakness, or cripple shortly after bursting, you’re pretty much dead.

There are some other slightly more indirect issues as well. You don’t have any effective way of generating point-blank illusions other than leap/swap and mirror images. Phase retreat moves you away, making a full output IP shatter with it not really feasible. Taking greatsword instead of staff would help with that, but then you’d be sacrificing even more mobility and defense. Lack of point-blank illusions when not in sword means that you have almost no potential for bursting when in staff, and this hurts your dps rotation even more.

Basically, shatters rely on a fast burst cycle of high burst every 10-15 seconds. Sustained damage inbetween those bursts is typically rather low, and anything that delays the burst cycle makes it easier for an opponent to survive. DE allows you to maintain that burst cycle no matter what weaponset you have or what utilities you’ve taken. Dropping DE means that unless you build in a really specific way, your burst cycle will be slowed down significantly, making it difficult to kill anyone paying attention.

Pyroathiest.4168:

snip

Yeah you’ve definitely explained why the build isn’t very effective at shatter when comparing against a build with DE. I’m definitely not debating if the build is good, not sure I’d run it myself but it’s interesting nonetheless. I was more generally speaking of the ability to do damage (period) with that trait spread, and it just depends on how it’s geared. Obviously with DE and switching 10 points around you would be much, much more powerful, which goes without saying.

On the surface I can easily see one looking at that build and thinking it’s not going to kill anything. I can understand your comments looking through that lens. But you don’t really know until you see how it’s geared. You can go full cleric with it (and do no damage) or full zerker and actually do some damage all whilst providing essentially the same capabilities via the traits.

I’d be curious how Ansau is doing with it.

BTW pyro why you using a different account to post with

skcamow.3527:

BTW pyro why you using a different account to post with

Apparently insulting the devs is against the forum CoC. Who knew?

Xaylin.1860:

Is this going to lead in the direction of non-competitive PvPers not having a clue about anything?

Yes? The reason I proposed this change was based on the position Mesmers are in right now in PvP game modes (ie. tPvP and WvW roaming).

Xaylin.1860:

When you think longterm, moving DE up to the GM tier might actually result in more build diversity than moving it down. People would have to decide wether to frequently shatter (DE) or have strong shatters (IP) or maybe both but sacrifice a lot of survivability/support in return. It might also lead to buffs to the baseline performance of Mesmers. Because right now, DE makes up for many shortcommings we have. ANet won’t recognize it as long as almost everyone runs DE.

This is a horrible idea. It would completely kill Mesmers in PvP, period, and we’re already right down the bottom, just above the Ele.

In the long-run, it might make ANet realize, “Maybe we should give Mesmers more survivability and/or damage output without them needing to utilize DE.” But that would require a complete class overhaul, since majority of our builds/traits are built around our ability to generate illusions. It’s not going to happen. These “revolutionary” ideas that people suggest are all ideal and cool to theorize about, but they’re fantasies. Look at more realistic changes, like the one I’m suggesting here.

Xaylin.1860:

• It improves meta builds. I’m scared when thinking about 30/10/0/0/30.

That’s the point. The Mesmer’s place in the meta right now is near the bottom, as far as PvP modes are concerned, and it doesn’t look like ANet are going to be bringing other professions down to our level. Ergo, these kinds of buffs are becoming necessary.

Power creep.

Xaylin.1860:

Oh, really?

So maybe I do have a clue what I’m talking about?

You are right that the likelihood of my idea is lower. I’m afraid though that your proposed change will do more harm than good. I’d rather not see it happen.

The only potential harm giving us more room to work with DE will do, is potentially create one or two over-powered builds. But that’s how balancing works. Warriors have been at the top of the PvP meta for months now. Necros were OP right after their initial condi buff. Etc, etc. And even then, it’s not a guarantee in light of those aforementioned builds still being very powerful and present right now.

CrazyCanuck.4265:

Since you failed to respond to my first post, Ill post again. DE is not a necessity for any playstyle or any game mode in guild wars 2. It is a crutch, pure and simple. Does it make certain things easier to handle? Sure it does. Are there other just as useful traits/weapon skills/utilities for handling those same things? Yes there are. Saying that without a certain trait, the class is significantly weaker is the reason why it is a trait in the first place… Mesmer is perfectly capable of performing at the top level in pve/pvp/wvw without this trait, just because you haven’t figured out doesn’t mean it isnt possible.

Go solo queue in PvP without running DE. Record your fights. Post the video here.

Then we’ll talk.