Guild Wars 2

Xaylin.1860:

Regardless about which class we are talking I’m not a fan of CC on AAs. Even more so on ranged weapons because this leads to a brainless AA spammfest. No skill to be found here. Rangers already got that reputation in PvE and wouldn’t like to see this extent to PvP and WvW.

There’s nothing you can do with a game that has 5 attack skills on the weapon.

If you don’t spread the functions across, even to AAs, what you’ll end up is overpowered skills or one skill that does everything which completely eliminates actual counter play.

Aridia.3042:

If you don’t spread the functions across, even to AAs, what you’ll end up is overpowered skills or one skill that does everything which completely eliminates actual counter play.

That’s a rather weak argument considering that other weapons do just fine.
Especially since CC on AA has less counterplay than anything else.

Xaylin.1860:

Aridia.3042:

If you don’t spread the functions across, even to AAs, what you’ll end up is overpowered skills or one skill that does everything which completely eliminates actual counter play.

That’s a rather weak argument considering that other weapons do just fine.
Especially since CC on AA has less counterplay than anything else.

I don’t see that as a weak argument. You’re free to agree to disagree but it doesn’t change the fact that not putting anything on AA means you need to overload the other 4 skills.

Cripple on LB3? So, it’ll cripple, stealth, and make your pet speed up? How do you exactly separate skill from spam at that point when you do one skill that does multiple things suited for multiple situations? That’s pretty much the antithesis of counter play.

Counter play to range attack is gap closer, blocking, or your own range attack. And I’m talking about a chance cripple also, not a guaranteed one. If you’re getting range attack to death, it’s a L2P issue, not a balance one.

Durzlla.6295:

McWolfy.5924:

Substance E.4852:

Jocksy.3415:

Prysin.8542:

EDIT: I dont mind the lack of AE, if the AE we got would strike fear in our enemies (other then making them think our side has an AC)

Lol…
The number of times I tell my bus that “it’s just a ranger”…

I die a little inside every time I watch the ticks I take from a meteor shower vs the 3 digit crits I get from Barrage.

But barrage have cripple!

Barrage also is a “You’re hit for being in this area” where meteor shower you can stand in the giant kitten circle and never actually be hit if the RNG gods smile upon you.

Meteor Shower is also useless 1v1 because an ele can’t realistically stand still to cast it or else they’ll be torn to shreds (ele’s are like sharks, if they stop moving they die.), where a ranger has both more health, and armor than the ele in most builds.

The more you know!! Rainbow

Pretty sure everything you just said about eles having to stand still to channel their Aoe and dying if they stop moving around applies to ranger’s as well.

Well, I would say that regardless of how it gets changed, I think we almost all can agree that the longbow could use some sort of improvement.

I’m not sure if this would be an accurate description of how the weapon plays currently, but something about it makes it play extremely clunky, like the weapon is too slow to keep up with the combat and environment around it.

Substance E.4852:

Durzlla.6295:

McWolfy.5924:

Substance E.4852:

Jocksy.3415:

Prysin.8542:

EDIT: I dont mind the lack of AE, if the AE we got would strike fear in our enemies (other then making them think our side has an AC)

Lol…
The number of times I tell my bus that “it’s just a ranger”…

I die a little inside every time I watch the ticks I take from a meteor shower vs the 3 digit crits I get from Barrage.

But barrage have cripple!

Barrage also is a “You’re hit for being in this area” where meteor shower you can stand in the giant kitten circle and never actually be hit if the RNG gods smile upon you.

Meteor Shower is also useless 1v1 because an ele can’t realistically stand still to cast it or else they’ll be torn to shreds (ele’s are like sharks, if they stop moving they die.), where a ranger has both more health, and armor than the ele in most builds.

The more you know!! Rainbow

Pretty sure everything you just said about eles having to stand still to channel their Aoe and dying if they stop moving around applies to ranger’s as well.

It does for ranger, but it’s not even close to being as extreme, if you stand still on a ranger you’ll get some nasty injuries, if you stand still on an ele, you’ll be dead.

Also, for barrage we can also cast 3/4ths of it from stealth giving them very little time to react to the AoE and to the immobile ranger

Aridia.3042:

…

I’m aware that you have been asking for Cripple for LB#1 for a long time and I can understand the motivation behind hit. However, CC on AA is never a good idea (especially so on a ranged weapon) and despite you saying otherwise it does not have any reasonable counter (neither actively nor reactively). It actually gets worse with your suggestion of adding a certain chance because then your opponent is even less able to predict which arrow to avoid because of the randomness.

CC abilities should be on cooldown skills especially since GW2 lacks a system which reduces the effectiveness of constantly reapplying CC. Additionally, if you want a skill to be counterable, it got to be somewhat predictable and recognizable. Pin Down probably is the best example.

Besides that, I’m quite sure you know that one skill having more than one purpose/effects doesn’t make it spam. So I don’t really get how this argument can justify your suggestion. The low number of skills per weapon in GW2 requires each weapon to have a more distinctive purpose than in other games. It does not necessarily lead into bloated skills. Cripple on LB#3 would still aid its orignal purpose. Your pet closing the cap and yourself repositioning.

We’re running in circles. I guess we should agree that we disagree.

The interesting part coming out of this conversation is that everybody for the most part is suggesting the longbow need more CC of some sort.

Some more thoughts regarding the longbow; I don’t really like the stealth shot. I find it to be unreliable at times for what it actually does, and the fact is that even with Remorseless, Knockback shot doesn’t do enough damage to capitalize on the opportunity created by Hunter’s Shot.

Just a simple QoL change, I think that Hunter’s Shot should stealth you regardless of whether you hit anything or not.

As a matter of fact, let me tie this all together before I lose my train of thought:

Combine Hunters Shot with Knockback Shot into a 2 part skill (like sword 2).

New Skill:

Part1:
“Hunter’s Instinct: You and your pet gain stealth, and your pet gains swiftness.”
Part 2:
“Knockback Shot: No change”

15 second base coodown.

This opens up slot number 4 for:

“Debilitating Shot: Fire an Arrow that immobilizes your target(1 second). Your pet teleports to your target and inflicts Vulnerability (5 stacks, 5 seconds) and Weakness (3 seconds) with it’s next attack.”

This probably deserves a 20-25s second recharge. This skill would have a very low damage value (like 300 with 3k attack) because it’s a setup skill and a utility skill.

Then the last things I would change are Rapid Fire being a 3.5 second channel with the same damage output (reduce number of arrows if the animation is too short for the amount fired, still same damage), and Barrage having it’s damage output being increased by 50% (multiply it’s current by 1.5).

I think that all these changes combined would make a functionally perfect longbow. The numbers are of course negotiable to be fitted into the balance spectrum, but these are my suggestions.

You’re right about the stealth being unreliable in its current state. Your suggestion about making it a 2-tier skill should make it more reliable. I’m not a fan of the knockback being on the follow up skill, though. LB#4 right now is a ‘get out of my face’ skill and it works just fine. It doesn’t marry well with stealth and would become extremly trolly. I’d rather see it stay on LB#4. You could tie the Weakness and/or CC (still feel that Cripple/Chill is more reasonable than Immobilize) to the LB#3.2 skill instead.

I’m also still not convinced that a pet teleport on a projectile is very smart. Again, look at Shadow Shot in combination with Richochet (P/D, made a mistake the last time I referred to it). As long as the pet teleport is tied to a projectile it will become extremly unpredictable when paired with Piercing Arrow. If you feel a pet teleport is needed in general a Shout or Signet might be a better place for implementing it.

Xaylin.1860:

You’re right about the stealth being unreliable in its current state. Your suggestion about making it a 2-tier skill should make it more reliable. I’m not a fan of the knockback being on the follow up skill, though. LB#4 right now is a ‘get out of my face’ skill and it works just fine. It doesn’t marry well with stealth and would become extremly trolly. I’d rather see it stay on LB#4. You could tie the Weakness and/or CC (still feel that Cripple/Chill is more reasonable than Immobilize) to the LB#3.2 skill instead.

I’m also still not convinced that a pet teleport on a projectile is very smart. Again, look at Shadow Shot in combination with Richochet (P/D, made a mistake the last time I referred to it). As long as the pet teleport is tied to a projectile it will become extremly unpredictable when paired with Piercing Arrow. If you feel a pet teleport is needed in general a Shout or Signet might be a better place for implementing it.

It doesn’t have to be coded unpredictably though. Ideally, it should be coded so that the pet teleports to the first target the arrow hits.

A 1 second immobilize every 20 seconds on what would be a fairly telegraphed skill that offers nothing but utility would be pretty fair IMO. Pin Down, Guardian Hammer 3 and Guardian Scepter 3, are just some examples I think are much stronger than this, so the range factor what would be what makes this skill compete on an equal tiering level with other ranged immobilizes in the game.

In actuality, the skill is more designed for the pet than for the ranger. It really doesn’t help the DPS output of the weapon itself at all with such a short immobilize. It does however, give the ranger the ability to buy an extra second, and potentially get some damage in from their pet as well as a split moment where the enemy does less damage and you do slightly more from the vulnerability.

With this skill being the way it is with the immobilize, I think dropping LB 3.2 to just a cripple is a fair tradeoff.

The thing about the longbow right now, and even after my suggestions, is that once you’re out of cooldowns, all you can do is spam rapid fire and auto attack. The weapon is completely out of defensive capabilities for what could be considered a lengthy period of time, which is the balancing factor. Dodge the immobilize, and react to the keep away abilities, and you can get in close to a longbow ranger, kill their DPS, and melt them with melee if they don’t swap.

jcbroe.4329:

The thing about the longbow right now, and even after my suggestions, is that once you’re out of cooldowns, all you can do is spam rapid fire and auto attack. The weapon is completely out of defensive capabilities for what could be considered a lengthy period of time, which is the balancing factor. Dodge the immobilize, and react to the keep away abilities, and you can get in close to a longbow ranger, kill their DPS, and melt them with melee if they don’t swap.

This is why the SB is much preferred over the LB generally. The 3 build in utilities are instantaneous and you can stagger them in the usage so you can often get the first one to refresh when you’re done using the last one. And it has more synergy with your pet since there’s no range penalty, they can get more hits in while you circle strafe the target but while doing the same is actually a DPS loss on the LB.

The LB has none of that optionality vs the SB. Stealth is not long enough to reset the fight, and even if you can stealth and swoop, you don’t have Quick Hands to get back onto your LB for a shot, and LB4 doesn’t push target back to the 1k killzone. I don’t know why there’s a range penalty for sub 1k range shots because Anet kind of forgot that there’s no CC that’s 1k range. So basically, unless your target is AFK, you only have one AA that has the maximum dmg potential, that’s working under the assumption, you’d actually crit on that shot and that they won’t dodge or the target doesn’t have aegis up.

The only way to fix LB is to uncap the range penalty or add a CC on it so the shooter has a chance to take meaningful subsequent shots. Predator’s instinct is garbage, they can put a 5 min cripple on it and it won’t matter because a LB doesn’t have enough condi to cover the cripple. So the only hope is the revised Sigil of Chill actually has a meaningful ICD to actually let LB users kite.

I like that Debilitating Shot idea. Anything to get the pet involved while using a LB is a good thing. The amount of DPS loss via the foot chase at 1k range and the inability to get any F2 buffs at that range with other allies around basically make the pet worthless for LB users.

Personally I think that as far as functionality goes, a Moment of Clarity empowered Greatsword is the BEST power weapon for rangers as far as functionality goes. Burst, gap closer, defensive utility, with a big damage counter, cripple, and an interrupt that can be used for big damage setups.

I think that the longbow should be a mirror of sorts of this functionality. Rapid Fire should be big damage, and then it needs a gap creator (which is why my original suggestion is a 2 part gain stealth and knockback), a defensive utility (being able to immobilize to maintain range and apply a bit of weakness while getting the pet involved for potentially setting up a defense based F2 as well), and some sort of other utility or damage skill (barrage doing 50% more damage).

That explains my line of thinking. Not to mention glass ranger builds running both these weapons are only going to have these few weapon skills as defense, even with my updated skill suggestion. It would end up playing so good, because a good ranger could win any fight against a lower skilled player, but against an equally skilled/higher skilled player, you have to manage your skills and positioning perfectly and not get outplayed by them.

I like Jcbroes “Strike As One” sorta style longbow skill, but I’d absolutely tie it to hunters shot IE make it the second skill there, then I could choose to use it or not after I stealth and just totally kitten with my enemies mind with the though of “is he gonna immob me? Is he gonna just bait me? What’s gonna happen?” And leave KBS as it’s own skill.

As for LB #1 I’d like to see then get rid of the short range damage, IE make it 0-999 range for damage and then 1k+ the 1k+ should be what it is now, so long range is rewarded. The other range should be what our 600-900 or w/e the mid range is.

PS: the 3 skill could just be named Hunter’s Instincts (stealth + swiftness on pet) —> Hunter’s Shot.

Durzlla.6295:

I like Jcbroes “Strike As One” sorta style longbow skill, but I’d absolutely tie it to hunters shot IE make it the second skill there, then I could choose to use it or not after I stealth and just totally kitten with my enemies mind with the though of “is he gonna immob me? Is he gonna just bait me? What’s gonna happen?” And leave KBS as it’s own skill.

As for LB #1 I’d like to see then get rid of the short range damage, IE make it 0-999 range for damage and then 1k+ the 1k+ should be what it is now, so long range is rewarded. The other range should be what our 600-900 or w/e the mid range is.

PS: the 3 skill could just be named Hunter’s Instincts (stealth + swiftness on pet) —> Hunter’s Shot.

I have to agree with this idea myself, it seems like a more refined version of what I was aiming for.

Shared this in Skype with Jcbroe, but like 10s after I posted I remembered an idea me and my friend had for the LB#1 change it from what it is to being Penetrating Shot: deal 1% more damage per stack of vuln. IE: if they had 25 vuln instead of doing 25% more damage you’d be doing 50% more damage. If they want to keep the long range thing make it so that you apply 1 stack of vuln for 10s or so while you’re over 1k range, but other than that don’t change the damage.

This would allow the LB to not only be a very lethal weapon in team fights due to the high vuln that can be around, but it’d also Synergise nicely with Rapid Fire and the proposed Hunters Shot (immob + vuln), imo it’d also warrant Rapid fires long cast time since that’d be a 20% damage boost instead of 10%, it’d give the enemy a chance to stop you from setting them up for death.

Durzlla.6295:

Shared this in Skype with Jcbroe, but like 10s after I posted I remembered an idea me and my friend had for the LB#1 change it from what it is to being Penetrating Shot: deal 1% more damage per stack of vuln. IE: if they had 25 vuln instead of doing 25% more damage you’d be doing 50% more damage. If they want to keep the long range thing make it so that you apply 1 stack of vuln for 10s or so while you’re over 1k range, but other than that don’t change the damage.

This would allow the LB to not only be a very lethal weapon in team fights due to the high vuln that can be around, but it’d also Synergise nicely with Rapid Fire and the proposed Hunters Shot (immob + vuln), imo it’d also warrant Rapid fires long cast time since that’d be a 20% damage boost instead of 10%, it’d give the enemy a chance to stop you from setting them up for death.

This is probably one of the better, less confusing ideas I’ve seen over the past year and a half. The only thing I would be cautious of is just how crazy the damage will stack up after using Signets in their current form (not that its a bad thing, but a 12-15k auto attack, even if its one well planned shot…it will send every other class up in arms)

Chrispy.5641:

Durzlla.6295:

Shared this in Skype with Jcbroe, but like 10s after I posted I remembered an idea me and my friend had for the LB#1 change it from what it is to being Penetrating Shot: deal 1% more damage per stack of vuln. IE: if they had 25 vuln instead of doing 25% more damage you’d be doing 50% more damage. If they want to keep the long range thing make it so that you apply 1 stack of vuln for 10s or so while you’re over 1k range, but other than that don’t change the damage.

This would allow the LB to not only be a very lethal weapon in team fights due to the high vuln that can be around, but it’d also Synergise nicely with Rapid Fire and the proposed Hunters Shot (immob + vuln), imo it’d also warrant Rapid fires long cast time since that’d be a 20% damage boost instead of 10%, it’d give the enemy a chance to stop you from setting them up for death.

This is probably one of the better, less confusing ideas I’ve seen over the past year and a half. The only thing I would be cautious of is just how crazy the damage will stack up after using Signets in their current form (not that its a bad thing, but a 12-15k auto attack, even if its one well planned shot…it will send every other class up in arms)

Not any worse than Killshot and that doesn’t require a bar of long cooldown signets to work.

about the original post and #7
I will be happy when pets with 30 points in BM function the same way pets with 16 BM in GW1. pets being able to do spike dmg when properly set up and buffed… pets in gw1 could crit for half the health on a player with the proper buffing and set up. It made pet builds very dynamic and had great reward for good pet control, which is really could be used in this game since there is such a high risk with focusing on your pets for damage output and really no reward coming from boosting your pets or focusing on how you play with them.

I mean there is literally no reward for playing well with your pet it is just meh while you do less than mediocre damage. The only reason why someone would go 30 points into BM in gw2 is not to make pets good or to better incorporate them with gameplay, they only go to 30 if they are going bunker and want the additional healing power stats and passive health regeneration which is counterintuitive to “working with your pet” and focuses more on personal survival and overall attention to self and no one else, not the group you are in, not the zerg you are fallowing, not the pet by your side, just you and if your pet dies, meh you got the health regen.

If we are supposed to work with our pet why is it so underwhelming when we spec to give them more stats and have traits that relate more to them than to our self?

Prysin.8542:

warriorjrd.8695:

Prysin.8542:

Xaylin.1860:

Atherakhia.4086:

That would certainly be one way to do it actually. Each tick of poison removes a boon. This coupled with our pets fields (working under the assumption the trait would even trigger for our pets) and the new snake trap field would certainly make the trait much more valuable.

Per tick would be insanely overpowered. While the idea is awesome I can’t see how this ever could be balanced. The number of boons removed got to be fix since long duration Poisons would get out of hand otherwise. Of course, if the game can actually track your ticks in a way to make them remove a limited amount of boons your suggestion would feel more natural. But it would also mean that people can could counter it. An instant boon removal on Poison application is a lot more reliable.

Prysin.8542:

Another function i’d like to see on rangers is a minor trait (somewhere) that applies weakness when we apply poison.

I thought about this, too. However I’d rather see it not happen just to prevent all the hate which it could cause between Rangers and Thieves who already got this as a 15 minor trait. Of course, this is a bad reason to not give it to Rangers but I just feel uncomfortable when thinking about it.

What about ‘Applying Poisons also Chills your target’ (ICD, yadda yadda) as alternative? Instead of reducing your foes damage and endurance you’d hinder their movement and slow down their cooldowns. It is something different with a somewhat similar effect.

Poison also applies chill would flip off every elementalist, necro and engineer in the game. They all hate that condi (Necro because they would no longer be better than rangers at something)

Necro’s have always had superior AOE damage than ranger. That’s something we lack and I would love more sources of AOE that can actually hit hard without having to go full zerk.

didnt speak of AOE.
Rangers already are way better at Fear (this has been documented and proven with several videos and math). So that is strike one, and if we by some miracle got more chill spam too, then necros would have little to offer except AOE.
As for AOE condies, necro wells/marks are larger with slightly more range, but ranger traps are more spammable and potent in their raw form. Necro traits are what makes their condi builds OP.

This “rangers having more fear than a necro” may be true, but it’s so far fetched it makes me cringe. it’s not even garunteed first of all because you have to rely on the RNG of the warthog F2, then go pick it up and use it. Sure we potentially have more fear, but reasonably we don’t. A necro has much easier access to it seeing as a necro is to fear the same way a mesmer is to confusion. The two go hand in hand.

Ranger traps are not potent at all in their raw form because they require you to drop them at your feet, have a tiny radius and the conditions are very short durations/tick. Only with 30 in skirmishing is a trap build going to be effective, otherwise you will get kited and killed.

Rangers are in a bad state. You going around speaking as if they’re gods shows you absolutely refuse to accept that fact, and isn’t helping them progress. Give feedback that actually helps, things the ranger lacks in that can be improved.

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

Durzlla.6295:

Shared this in Skype with Jcbroe, but like 10s after I posted I remembered an idea me and my friend had for the LB#1 change it from what it is to being Penetrating Shot: deal 1% more damage per stack of vuln. IE: if they had 25 vuln instead of doing 25% more damage you’d be doing 50% more damage. If they want to keep the long range thing make it so that you apply 1 stack of vuln for 10s or so while you’re over 1k range, but other than that don’t change the damage.

This would allow the LB to not only be a very lethal weapon in team fights due to the high vuln that can be around, but it’d also Synergise nicely with Rapid Fire and the proposed Hunters Shot (immob + vuln), imo it’d also warrant Rapid fires long cast time since that’d be a 20% damage boost instead of 10%, it’d give the enemy a chance to stop you from setting them up for death.

This is probably one of the better, less confusing ideas I’ve seen over the past year and a half. The only thing I would be cautious of is just how crazy the damage will stack up after using Signets in their current form (not that its a bad thing, but a 12-15k auto attack, even if its one well planned shot…it will send every other class up in arms)

Not any worse than Killshot and that doesn’t require a bar of long cooldown signets to work.

I know you feel poor and neglected, and are envious of just about everything other professions can do because the Ranger can’t do it, and still you want to play the ranger instead of other professions. That’s okay. You don’t deserve a response beyond that based on the fact that you still feel the need to compare a class mechanic (burst) skill to an auto attack.

Chrispy.5641:

Durzlla.6295:

Shared this in Skype with Jcbroe, but like 10s after I posted I remembered an idea me and my friend had for the LB#1 change it from what it is to being Penetrating Shot: deal 1% more damage per stack of vuln. IE: if they had 25 vuln instead of doing 25% more damage you’d be doing 50% more damage. If they want to keep the long range thing make it so that you apply 1 stack of vuln for 10s or so while you’re over 1k range, but other than that don’t change the damage.

This would allow the LB to not only be a very lethal weapon in team fights due to the high vuln that can be around, but it’d also Synergise nicely with Rapid Fire and the proposed Hunters Shot (immob + vuln), imo it’d also warrant Rapid fires long cast time since that’d be a 20% damage boost instead of 10%, it’d give the enemy a chance to stop you from setting them up for death.

This is probably one of the better, less confusing ideas I’ve seen over the past year and a half. The only thing I would be cautious of is just how crazy the damage will stack up after using Signets in their current form (not that its a bad thing, but a 12-15k auto attack, even if its one well planned shot…it will send every other class up in arms)

That seems like a much higher damage estimate than it should be to me. I mean, I’m going to go with a crit at 50% crit damage doing around 2k damage with pretty substantial power investment. Full glass builds at max range (this is outside of PvP because in PvP there isn’t much higher you can get with crit damage if you are in the 50s) are going to be pushing 3k, so let’s just say 3k for math.

Signet of the Wild, when traited will up those crits to 3.75k (3750) per hit, and a signet of the hunt active would put 1 hit up to 5625 on a single hit.

Those are numbers against a target with medium range toughness. With Max vulnerability, your hits on the autoattack would go to 4500 on crit, and with Signet of the Wild activated, crits will hit 5625, and a with Signet of the Hunt on top of hit, you’ll get one crit of 8438.

I mean, in PvP, this change is actually pretty fair and provides the “oomph” that the longbow feels like it is sorely lacking at times (numbers would be 3k crits, 4.5k with SotW, and one hit of 6750 with Signet of the Hunt while under SotW). Not to mention the ability to die if somebody looks at you when you run a build like this, meaning that it still keeps its linear role and has a plethora of hard counters.

Also, if the range stipulation was removed, the damage would more than likely be normalized (by this I mean they would use the average of the lowest and highest base damages and make that the new base damage).

Chrispy.5641:

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

Durzlla.6295:

Shared this in Skype with Jcbroe, but like 10s after I posted I remembered an idea me and my friend had for the LB#1 change it from what it is to being Penetrating Shot: deal 1% more damage per stack of vuln. IE: if they had 25 vuln instead of doing 25% more damage you’d be doing 50% more damage. If they want to keep the long range thing make it so that you apply 1 stack of vuln for 10s or so while you’re over 1k range, but other than that don’t change the damage.

This would allow the LB to not only be a very lethal weapon in team fights due to the high vuln that can be around, but it’d also Synergise nicely with Rapid Fire and the proposed Hunters Shot (immob + vuln), imo it’d also warrant Rapid fires long cast time since that’d be a 20% damage boost instead of 10%, it’d give the enemy a chance to stop you from setting them up for death.

This is probably one of the better, less confusing ideas I’ve seen over the past year and a half. The only thing I would be cautious of is just how crazy the damage will stack up after using Signets in their current form (not that its a bad thing, but a 12-15k auto attack, even if its one well planned shot…it will send every other class up in arms)

Not any worse than Killshot and that doesn’t require a bar of long cooldown signets to work.

I know you feel poor and neglected, and are envious of just about everything other professions can do because the Ranger can’t do it, and still you want to play the ranger instead of other professions. That’s okay. You don’t deserve a response beyond that based on the fact that you still feel the need to compare a class mechanic (burst) skill to an auto attack.

Evidently I’ve touched a nerve…

jcbroe.4329:

A 1 second immobilize every 20 seconds on what would be a fairly telegraphed skill that offers nothing but utility would be pretty fair IMO. Pin Down, Guardian Hammer 3 and Guardian Scepter 3, are just some examples I think are much stronger than this, so the range factor what would be what makes this skill compete on an equal tiering level with other ranged immobilizes in the game.

If you looked at it without considering the context, maybe. But when considering that you could trait Piercing Arrows or Eagle Eye would make a 1200 Immobilize on the LB too much for my personal taste. It also takes away the purpose of other skills as mentioned earlier.

The examples you mentioned show that you can’t look at such an effect seperately. Sc#3 has a 900 range while the AA is 1200. It is for keeping people from running away (or setting up Smite) not for keeping them away from yourself. Because Guardians lack ranged damage and got few gap closers. It also can’t be traited in any valuable way. H#3 is the same. It is for keeping people close. An Immobilize on LB on the other hand will most likely used to keep people away (without any risk for the Ranger). But we already got LB#4 for that and potentially LB#3 for repositioning.

jcbroe.4329:

The thing about the longbow right now, and even after my suggestions, is that once you’re out of cooldowns, all you can do is spam rapid fire and auto attack. The weapon is completely out of defensive capabilities for what could be considered a lengthy period of time, which is the balancing factor. Dodge the immobilize, and react to the keep away abilities, and you can get in close to a longbow ranger, kill their DPS, and melt them with melee if they don’t swap.

SB is any different. SB got #3 as defensive while LB can use #3 and #4 defensively. #5 is CC in both cases. SB just happens to work better because it lacks the downfalls which come with some of the LB skills.

• No damage decrease at lower range
• No channels
• Skill to slow down gap closers instead of a gap creator

The first point can be fixed quite easily if they finally removed the range penalty. Or did something like Durzlla mentioned (+ damage depending on Vulnerability stacks). The second could be improved by reducing the channel of Rabid Fire which could also leed to slightly more damage. Barrage could be changed to be castable while moving. Those are all rather small changes but might help the LB immsensly. No need to reinvent the weapon.

Regarding the third point… not sure if it needs to be adressed if the other changes were made. But there is a difference between slowing down a gap closer and preventing it. Considering the Knockback on #4 and area Cripple on #5 I feel that an Immobilize is too much. Especially a traitable one. But I guess I already made my point of view clear.

Aridia.3042:

The LB has none of that optionality vs the SB. Stealth is not long enough to reset the fight, and even if you can stealth and swoop, you don’t have Quick Hands to get back onto your LB for a shot, and LB4 doesn’t push target back to the 1k killzone.

The stealth is more for repositioning rather than resetting a fight and you can’t really expect to sit back with a ranged weapon for a whole fight. GW2 isn’t designed that way.

Aridia.3042:

Predator’s instinct is garbage, they can put a 5 min cripple on it and it won’t matter because a LB doesn’t have enough condi to cover the cripple.

Wait whaaaaat? Who on earth would make the effort to cover a Cripple?

I agree though that the trait could need some tweaking to be more useful. E.g., lower ICD but lower Cripple duration. However, this is an Adept trait. Don’t expect too much.

jcbroe.4329:

I think that the longbow should be a mirror of sorts of this functionality. Rapid Fire should be big damage, and then it needs a gap creator (which is why my original suggestion is a 2 part gain stealth and knockback), a defensive utility (being able to immobilize to maintain range and apply a bit of weakness while getting the pet involved for potentially setting up a defense based F2 as well), and some sort of other utility or damage skill (barrage doing 50% more damage).

I don’t get why you are trying so hard if the essentials are already available.
Why not build on those instead of totally reworking them?

Gap creator = LB#4
Defensive utility = LB#3

Durzlla.6295:

…Penetrating Shot: deal 1% more damage per stack of vuln. …

+1

Xaylin.1860:

The stealth is more for repositioning rather than resetting a fight and you can’t really expect to sit back with a ranged weapon for a whole fight. GW2 isn’t designed that way.

Wait whaaaaat? Who on earth would make the effort to cover a Cripple?

I agree though that the trait could need some tweaking to be more useful. E.g., lower ICD but lower Cripple duration. However, this is an Adept trait. Don’t expect too much.
utility or damage skill (barrage doing 50% more damage).

Except you can’t even reposition with that short duration. You can swoop away that’s about it. Combine it with range penalty it doesn’t accomplish much.

People that wants to kite would want to cover it. The person who designed it probably also seeing how the duration was bumped up that much. It’s a half baked trait though that needs way lower cool down on icd and duration so it can be reapplied. It should function similarly to the ice sigil but slightly better.

Aridia.3042:

Except you can’t even reposition with that short duration. You can swoop away that’s about it. Combine it with range penalty it doesn’t accomplish much.

3s of stealth is the most common duration and that’s actually a very powerful combo. Not sure why you feel it is insufficient. Also, repositioning doesn’t mean you get a free reset to 1200 range. You still can increase the distance people have tun run substantially. I don’t really play Ranger in PvP but I see many of them using LB#3 in a wrong way. 3s of stealth is plenty but they don’t utilize it properly. Maybe because many aren’t that used to stealth. I don’t know. Some things I observed:

• LB#3 when I’m already in their face. That is too late. Use it earlier. Run to the side (not to your back) to confuse your enemy. Most people expect you to run away from them in a straight line.
• LB#3 in melee range and standing still (and maybe cast Barrage). Bad idea. People will beat the crap out of you as long as they are familiar with your skills. Use LB#3 for either repositioning or setting up Barrage. Both at the same time won’t work. If you use it for positioning in melee range, run through your enemy. He is less likely to spot you when you are behind him.

I’m not saying that you’re not aware of how to use LB#3. But I see many players who are unaware of the benefits it actually provides if used properly.

Aridia.3042:

People that wants to kite would want to cover it. The person who designed it probably also seeing how the duration was bumped up that much. It’s a half baked trait though that needs way lower cool down on icd and duration so it can be reapplied. It should function similarly to the ice sigil but slightly better.

From my personal experience nobody will cure Cripple unless they try to get out of the fight and not into the fight (or they got a high amount of passive condition removal /cough Warrior). Apart from that, this is a general power build/weapon issue. No LB issue. If you really feel the need to cover it, you could always go for Sharpened Edges.

But yes, as already said, Predators Instinct could need a shorter ICD. Not sure why it should be better than the ice sigil, though. There are many sigils that outperform traits. Especially on the Adept level.

Xaylin.1860:

Aridia.3042:

Except you can’t even reposition with that short duration. You can swoop away that’s about it. Combine it with range penalty it doesn’t accomplish much.

3s of stealth is the most common duration and that’s actually a very powerful combo. Not sure why you feel it is insufficient. Also, repositioning doesn’t mean you get a free reset to 1200 range. You still can increase the distance people have tun run substantially. I don’t really play Ranger in PvP but I see many of them using LB#3 in a wrong way. 3s of stealth is plenty but they don’t utilize it properly. Maybe because many aren’t that used to stealth. I don’t know. Some things I observed:

• LB#3 when I’m already in their face. That is too late. Use it earlier. Run to the side (not to your back) to confuse your enemy. Most people expect you to run away from them in a straight line.
• LB#3 in melee range and standing still (and maybe cast Barrage). Bad idea. People will beat the crap out of you as long as they are familiar with your skills. Use LB#3 for either repositioning or setting up Barrage. Both at the same time won’t work. If you use it for positioning in melee range, run through your enemy. He is less likely to spot you when you are behind him.

I’m not saying that you’re not aware of how to use LB#3. But I see many players who are unaware of the benefits it actually provides if used properly.

Aridia.3042:

People that wants to kite would want to cover it. The person who designed it probably also seeing how the duration was bumped up that much. It’s a half baked trait though that needs way lower cool down on icd and duration so it can be reapplied. It should function similarly to the ice sigil but slightly better.

From my personal experience nobody will cure Cripple unless they try to get out of the fight and not into the fight (or they got a high amount of passive condition removal /cough Warrior). Apart from that, this is a general power build/weapon issue. No LB issue. If you really feel the need to cover it, you could always go for Sharpened Edges.

But yes, as already said, Predators Instinct could need a shorter ICD. Not sure why it should be better than the ice sigil, though. There are many sigils that outperform traits. Especially on the Adept level.

Combine Sigil of Ice + Predators Instinct, the enemy will almost never get to you, it’s brutally hilarious.

As for the stealth I can agree fully that a large amount of rangers don’t know how to utilize the stealth, they seem to think that the stealth should work like it does for a thief, IE you bust out of it with TONS OF DAMAGE! but we’re the sustained damage prof, you can’t do that…

Our Stealth is a god send (imo) and is borderline OP in the right hands, it allows you to throw down traps, cast things like muddy terrain, heal as one, barrage, entangle etc from the cover of stealth making it so they can’t really dodge and thus set them up for a beating.

Also, using it in melee range is fine, you just have to clever about HOW you use it in melee range. One thing i’ll do is stealth off of them and then run through them, turn around and PBS them further away and generally follow up with either a frost trap or Muddy Terrain (depending on the build) or MAYBE even a barrage to give me a nice kiting zone (i’m surprised more people don’t do this seeing as how it was done ALL THE TIME by hunters in WoW).

Another fun trick is to use LB with a primarily melee weapon set up, and kite them for a bit, and then stealth and go into melee and burst them (in my Rampager builds case it was drop MT + Flame Trap + Split Blades + Stalker Strike + Winter’s Bite to spike them like a necro).

Durzlla.6295:

Shared this in Skype with Jcbroe, but like 10s after I posted I remembered an idea me and my friend had for the LB#1 change it from what it is to being Penetrating Shot: deal 1% more damage per stack of vuln. IE: if they had 25 vuln instead of doing 25% more damage you’d be doing 50% more damage. If they want to keep the long range thing make it so that you apply 1 stack of vuln for 10s or so while you’re over 1k range, but other than that don’t change the damage.

This would allow the LB to not only be a very lethal weapon in team fights due to the high vuln that can be around, but it’d also Synergise nicely with Rapid Fire and the proposed Hunters Shot (immob + vuln), imo it’d also warrant Rapid fires long cast time since that’d be a 20% damage boost instead of 10%, it’d give the enemy a chance to stop you from setting them up for death.

I like the vulnerability idea on LB, I mentioned to ANEt that since we’re supposed to be resilient fighters who tear down our foes in game, make it so that vulnerability is Rangers trademark condition if that would be a trait that could be put on, i think that is a great idea.

or

make it so that penetrating shot is the auto attack of LB and just get rid of bonus long range all together. revised LB #4 make it so that the closer your enemy is the more damage you deal, knock back still present. not only are you pushing them for kiting, but you are also punishing them for getting close to you. I love this skill, because you can reset your auto attack if you time it well, similar to how Quick Shot works in GW1.

AEFA.9035:

Durzlla.6295:

Shared this in Skype with Jcbroe, but like 10s after I posted I remembered an idea me and my friend had for the LB#1 change it from what it is to being Penetrating Shot: deal 1% more damage per stack of vuln. IE: if they had 25 vuln instead of doing 25% more damage you’d be doing 50% more damage. If they want to keep the long range thing make it so that you apply 1 stack of vuln for 10s or so while you’re over 1k range, but other than that don’t change the damage.

This would allow the LB to not only be a very lethal weapon in team fights due to the high vuln that can be around, but it’d also Synergise nicely with Rapid Fire and the proposed Hunters Shot (immob + vuln), imo it’d also warrant Rapid fires long cast time since that’d be a 20% damage boost instead of 10%, it’d give the enemy a chance to stop you from setting them up for death.

I like the vulnerability idea on LB, I mentioned to ANEt that since we’re supposed to be resilient fighters who tear down our foes in game, make it so that vulnerability is Rangers trademark condition if that would be a trait that could be put on, i think that is a great idea.

or

make it so that penetrating shot is the auto attack of LB and just get rid of bonus long range all together. revised LB #4 make it so that the closer your enemy is the more damage you deal, knock back still present. not only are you pushing them for kiting, but you are also punishing them for getting close to you. I love this skill, because you can reset your auto attack if you time it well, similar to how Quick Shot works in GW1.

The idea of Penetrating Shot was to be a replacement for Long Range Shot, the idea for Long Range Shot is great, but in practice it’s just not that great and it’s more of a hinderance than a boon. Also, LB could still be THE KING of ranged single target damage, which Rapid Fire + Penetrating Shot would do very well and allow LB3, 4 and 5 to continue to be utility based.

Id love Point blank shot to deal more damage the closer they are, it’d help you establish being the “King of Range” because it may detaunt a lot of players from going melee (if you’re a good enough kiter) and just try to range v range you, where you’ll likely win.

Durzlla.6295:

AEFA.9035:

Durzlla.6295:

Shared this in Skype with Jcbroe, but like 10s after I posted I remembered an idea me and my friend had for the LB#1 change it from what it is to being Penetrating Shot: deal 1% more damage per stack of vuln. IE: if they had 25 vuln instead of doing 25% more damage you’d be doing 50% more damage. If they want to keep the long range thing make it so that you apply 1 stack of vuln for 10s or so while you’re over 1k range, but other than that don’t change the damage.

This would allow the LB to not only be a very lethal weapon in team fights due to the high vuln that can be around, but it’d also Synergise nicely with Rapid Fire and the proposed Hunters Shot (immob + vuln), imo it’d also warrant Rapid fires long cast time since that’d be a 20% damage boost instead of 10%, it’d give the enemy a chance to stop you from setting them up for death.

I like the vulnerability idea on LB, I mentioned to ANEt that since we’re supposed to be resilient fighters who tear down our foes in game, make it so that vulnerability is Rangers trademark condition if that would be a trait that could be put on, i think that is a great idea.

or

make it so that penetrating shot is the auto attack of LB and just get rid of bonus long range all together. revised LB #4 make it so that the closer your enemy is the more damage you deal, knock back still present. not only are you pushing them for kiting, but you are also punishing them for getting close to you. I love this skill, because you can reset your auto attack if you time it well, similar to how Quick Shot works in GW1.

The idea of Penetrating Shot was to be a replacement for Long Range Shot, the idea for Long Range Shot is great, but in practice it’s just not that great and it’s more of a hinderance than a boon. Also, LB could still be THE KING of ranged single target damage, which Rapid Fire + Penetrating Shot would do very well and allow LB3, 4 and 5 to continue to be utility based.

Id love Point blank shot to deal more damage the closer they are, it’d help you establish being the “King of Range” because it may detaunt a lot of players from going melee (if you’re a good enough kiter) and just try to range v range you, where you’ll likely win.

And that is where ANet should push us power rangers.

the problem with power build in gw2 is. there s no armor penetration. so when a powerbuild ranger attack a toughness build warrior. you have no chance winning in 1v1. keep in mind that ranger mobility is very low compared to warrior

Xaylin.1860:

*snip

1. Saying a 3 second stealth will let you reposition is like saying a leap that moves 50 spaces instead of 900 is closing a gap. Unless your opponent has the memory of a tit mouse, he’ll know the general area you’re in because rangers don’t have ports like thieves and mesmers. You run LB and then what exactly on the secondary? Sword? GS? Both of which lets you move away but doesn’t allow you to get back onto your LB which is why I said it’s useless. You’re always better of to gap close to the last location of the ranger as running away from a LB ranger is the worst thing you could do.

Range weapons are meant to kite. Doubly so when they tack on a stupid tax that says it doesn’t really work effectively unless it’s at 1k range. LB3 doesn’t help you kite, not with the range penalty on the weapon.

2. You cover anything that you want to stay on the target. You don’t cover the cripple because you don’t see the value of kiting. Apparently, neither does Anet. You have to work with the cards that are dealt to you, if they insist on penalty on sub 1k range, then people would need to do drastic kiting to maximize the damage. Look back at my post above to jcbroe to see why it’s lol bad to expect a LB user to only get 1 shot off with the max damage.

Currently you can’t really kite on the LB. Which is why the common fixes that get posted all start to sound similar. Give me cripple. Give me immobilize.

And no, I will never use a trait that’s worse than a sigil. If that doesn’t tell you how broken that trait is that a 16s sigil could effectively replace and surpass it, I guess there’s no point to discuss class balancing at that point.

Durzlla.6295:

Combine Sigil of Ice + Predators Instinct, the enemy will almost never get to you, it’s brutally hilarious.

It’s 30% chance proc on crit with 10 sec ICD that nets you 2 seconds of cripple. Target would have to be not a warrior, have no gap closer, or AFK to keep them at 1k range for longer than 1 shot.

Aridia.3042:

Durzlla.6295:

Combine Sigil of Ice + Predators Instinct, the enemy will almost never get to you, it’s brutally hilarious.

It’s 30% chance proc on crit with 10 sec ICD that nets you 2 seconds of cripple. Target would have to be not a warrior, have no gap closer, or AFK to keep them at 1k range for longer than 1 shot.

It’s chill, that’s 66% longer CDs for 2s, and 66% slower movement, not 25% and it’s not to keep them at 1k+ range it’s to keep them from GETTING TO YOU. If they can not hit you, they can not win. That chill DESTROYS gap closers btw, try to leap at me with a 1200 range leap, go ahead, i’ll watch you move 400 units, good luck leaping to me.

Durzlla.6295:

Aridia.3042:

Durzlla.6295:

Combine Sigil of Ice + Predators Instinct, the enemy will almost never get to you, it’s brutally hilarious.

It’s 30% chance proc on crit with 10 sec ICD that nets you 2 seconds of cripple. Target would have to be not a warrior, have no gap closer, or AFK to keep them at 1k range for longer than 1 shot.

It’s chill, that’s 66% longer CDs for 2s, and 66% slower movement, not 25% and it’s not to keep them at 1k+ range it’s to keep them from GETTING TO YOU. If they can not hit you, they can not win. That chill DESTROYS gap closers btw, try to leap at me with a 1200 range leap, go ahead, i’ll watch you move 400 units, good luck leaping to me.

You’d have to be using duration extending food to get that 2s against someone with poultry soup and runes though. With just the marksmanship buff you’ll only get about 1.5 seconds of chill.

Substance E.4852:

Durzlla.6295:

Aridia.3042:

Durzlla.6295:

Combine Sigil of Ice + Predators Instinct, the enemy will almost never get to you, it’s brutally hilarious.

It’s 30% chance proc on crit with 10 sec ICD that nets you 2 seconds of cripple. Target would have to be not a warrior, have no gap closer, or AFK to keep them at 1k range for longer than 1 shot.

It’s chill, that’s 66% longer CDs for 2s, and 66% slower movement, not 25% and it’s not to keep them at 1k+ range it’s to keep them from GETTING TO YOU. If they can not hit you, they can not win. That chill DESTROYS gap closers btw, try to leap at me with a 1200 range leap, go ahead, i’ll watch you move 400 units, good luck leaping to me.

You’d have to be using duration extending food to get that 2s against someone with poultry soup and runes though. With just the marksmanship buff you’ll only get about 1.5 seconds of chill.

Yes, but not very many people run condi reduction… you shouldn’t assume that it’s being run to determine whether or not it’s worth running.

Durzlla.6295:

Substance E.4852:

Durzlla.6295:

Aridia.3042:

Durzlla.6295:

Combine Sigil of Ice + Predators Instinct, the enemy will almost never get to you, it’s brutally hilarious.

It’s 30% chance proc on crit with 10 sec ICD that nets you 2 seconds of cripple. Target would have to be not a warrior, have no gap closer, or AFK to keep them at 1k range for longer than 1 shot.

It’s chill, that’s 66% longer CDs for 2s, and 66% slower movement, not 25% and it’s not to keep them at 1k+ range it’s to keep them from GETTING TO YOU. If they can not hit you, they can not win. That chill DESTROYS gap closers btw, try to leap at me with a 1200 range leap, go ahead, i’ll watch you move 400 units, good luck leaping to me.

You’d have to be using duration extending food to get that 2s against someone with poultry soup and runes though. With just the marksmanship buff you’ll only get about 1.5 seconds of chill.

Yes, but not very many people run condi reduction… you shouldn’t assume that it’s being run to determine whether or not it’s worth running.

not many run condi reduction in PvP. In WvW it is running rampant and every warrior is running Dogged March + Melandru Runes and possibly Lemongrass too, unless they got Omnom Compote (heals for 800 or so on kill).

In sPvP your statement is true durrz, in WvW it is not. Considering you spent most of your time in dungeons and PvP, while i spend the wast majority of my time in WvW, we can just agree that we are equally qualified to talk about our own “specialities”.
In WvW, you won’t do crap against a warrior with 2 seconds chill. Even running Alpine Wolf with Malicious training and Intimidation training barely slows down a warrior (thats 7 sec chill + 11 sec cripple for those who wonder)

Prysin.8542:

Durzlla.6295:

Substance E.4852:

Durzlla.6295:

Aridia.3042:

Durzlla.6295:

Combine Sigil of Ice + Predators Instinct, the enemy will almost never get to you, it’s brutally hilarious.

It’s 30% chance proc on crit with 10 sec ICD that nets you 2 seconds of cripple. Target would have to be not a warrior, have no gap closer, or AFK to keep them at 1k range for longer than 1 shot.

It’s chill, that’s 66% longer CDs for 2s, and 66% slower movement, not 25% and it’s not to keep them at 1k+ range it’s to keep them from GETTING TO YOU. If they can not hit you, they can not win. That chill DESTROYS gap closers btw, try to leap at me with a 1200 range leap, go ahead, i’ll watch you move 400 units, good luck leaping to me.

You’d have to be using duration extending food to get that 2s against someone with poultry soup and runes though. With just the marksmanship buff you’ll only get about 1.5 seconds of chill.

Yes, but not very many people run condi reduction… you shouldn’t assume that it’s being run to determine whether or not it’s worth running.

not many run condi reduction in PvP. In WvW it is running rampant and every warrior is running Dogged March + Melandru Runes and possibly Lemongrass too, unless they got Omnom Compote (heals for 800 or so on kill).

In sPvP your statement is true durrz, in WvW it is not. Considering you spent most of your time in dungeons and PvP, while i spend the wast majority of my time in WvW, we can just agree that we are equally qualified to talk about our own “specialities”.
In WvW, you won’t do crap against a warrior with 2 seconds chill. Even running Alpine Wolf with Malicious training and Intimidation training barely slows down a warrior (thats 7 sec chill + 11 sec cripple for those who wonder)

True. I’ve tried the sigil of ice and found it fairly underwhelming in WvW. It might be worth trying again with the change to proc rate and double sigil slots on the 14th though since you will always get that chill with opening strike on your first hit.

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

I know you feel poor and neglected, and are envious of just about everything other professions can do because the Ranger can’t do it, and still you want to play the ranger instead of other professions. That’s okay. You don’t deserve a response beyond that based on the fact that you still feel the need to compare a class mechanic (burst) skill to an auto attack.

Evidently I’ve touched a nerve…

Nope. Its just my standard response to people who enviously try to compare 2 things that have no business being compared.

jcbroe.4329:

…snip…

you know that people can get a 9k longbow auto attack in WvW right now, right? add 25% to that, it becomes 11.25K, for an auto attack, with no active tell telling someone they are about to die, unlike killshot.

I’m all for getting extra damage on vulnerability. It does give the longbow extra power, and a reason for me to take it along, but, you guys need to stop with not wanting to factor in those “useless, long cooldown Signets”, because, while you wont, Anet sure as hell will. One thing you guys should start factoring in to your discussions (as far as increasing the damage we do) is to change the way signets work, so we can avoid that dirty word Anet likes to call Power Creep. Signets are part of the problem why we deal so little damage. its not all pets.

Chrispy.5641:

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

I know you feel poor and neglected, and are envious of just about everything other professions can do because the Ranger can’t do it, and still you want to play the ranger instead of other professions. That’s okay. You don’t deserve a response beyond that based on the fact that you still feel the need to compare a class mechanic (burst) skill to an auto attack.

Evidently I’ve touched a nerve…

Nope. Its just my standard response to people who enviously try to compare 2 things that have no business being compared.

jcbroe.4329:

…snip…

you know that people can get a 9k longbow auto attack in WvW right now, right? add 25% to that, it becomes 11.25K, for an auto attack, with no active tell telling someone they are about to die, unlike killshot.

I’m all for getting extra damage on vulnerability. It does give the longbow extra power, and a reason for me to take it along, but, you guys need to stop with not wanting to factor in those “useless, long cooldown Signets”, because, while you wont, Anet sure as hell will. One thing you guys should start factoring in to your discussions (as far as increasing the damage we do) is to change the way signets work, so we can avoid that dirty word Anet likes to call Power Creep. Signets are part of the problem why we deal so little damage. its not all pets.

Those numbers are taken from a target that would have around 2600 armor is the reason why my numbers don’t match yours. Just a heads up for the information sharing. I’m more than well aware that damage is higher against squishier targets, but that was a generic calculation.

WvW is never going to be balanced. There are so many different permutations of stat investments, different foods and consumables, and mechanics that break when the number of people increases what the game was balanced for (5v5). It isn’t a knock against anybody who plays WvW, it’s just pointing out the fact that WvW was never intended to be a high level competition game mode and more so a fun, Player versus Player oriented experience that gets an entire server involved to unify and test themselves in some regard against another server.

So if any of the changes I ever suggest would be balanced in PvP and not somewhere else, that would be the big reason. ANet has been pushing PvP since day 1, and centers all of their tournaments around TPvP. I think it’s fair to say that from their perspective, that is where they believe that highest and most intricate level of balance needs to be, and if it trickles out to other game modes and doesn’t translate well there, it either never gets fixed, or there are skill splits at an attempt to compensate.

jcbroe.4329:

Chrispy.5641:

jcbroe.4329:

…snip…

you know that people can get a 9k longbow auto attack in WvW right now, right? add 25% to that, it becomes 11.25K, for an auto attack, with no active tell telling someone they are about to die, unlike killshot.

Those numbers are taken from a target that would have around 2600 armor is the reason why my numbers don’t match yours. Just a heads up for the information sharing. I’m more than well aware that damage is higher against squishier targets, but that was a generic calculation.

It will also just hit you that high if you let the ranger building vulnstacks on you. If you know he tries that. you should either cleanse it or move within the 1000 range.
I’m personally all for this more damage on vuln stacks idea and I also like the hunter’s shot idea (imob+vuln).
What I also would like to see is a cripple attached to the weapon. Either on LB #4 or on LB #1. ANet could turn the AA into a 3-hit chain. The first shot could have low damage but low cast/aftercast animation to get an AA between the other skills of. The second shot could be a long casting, high damaging shot, who would benefit the most from 1hit steroids like Signet of the Hunt. The third AA would be a fast firing (harder to dodge), crippling shot to maintain distance.

(Note: I’m not suggestion that the overall flat damage of the AA should be increased.)

I just want to recap the design philosophy behind the longbow, so we’re all on the same table again:
The longbow is meant to deal damage at range. Noone ever said it should deal high damage.
However, there is the major flaw that we aren’t able to utilize the range we’ve been given. This applies both to WvW, where we aren’t able to maintain our range to justify the longbow, and PvE, where is simply no need to bring in a ranged weapon.
So there are two things we could do to fix the flaw.
1) Scrap the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range and it wouldn’t need to if we would say that the longbow is meant to deal high damage on any range.
2) Fix the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range. Therefore we have to add cripples and immobilizes to effectively maintain our range. This would be fairly easy to do for WvW, but maintaining the range in PvE isn’t the problem. The problem is, that there is no need to range anything. You can melee all day long in PvE. So ANet has either to deliver content tailored to using long range weapons or they have to buff the longbow to a certain extent, so it’s more desireable to use longrange weapons than melee weapons. Either way, they probably have to buff the damage atleast a bit.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I just want to recap the design philosophy behind the longbow, so we’re all on the same table again:
The longbow is meant to deal damage at range. Noone ever said it should deal high damage.
However, there is the major flaw that we aren’t able to utilize the range we’ve been given. This applies both to WvW, where we aren’t able to maintain our range to justify the longbow, and PvE, where is simply no need to bring in a ranged weapon.
So there are two things we could do to fix the flaw.
1) Scrap the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range and it wouldn’t need to if we would say that the longbow is meant to deal high damage on any range.
2) Fix the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range. Therefore we have to add cripples and immobilizes to effectively maintain our range. This would be fairly easy to do for WvW, but maintaining the range in PvE isn’t the problem. The problem is, that there is no need to range anything. You can melee all day long in PvE. So ANet has either to deliver content tailored to using long range weapons or they have to buff the longbow to a certain extent, so it’s more desireable to use longrange weapons than melee weapons. Either way, they probably have to buff the damage atleast a bit.

It’d be far easier to simply remove the range penalty on the auto attack. It doesn’t need a bonus effect if it’s already the hardest hitting ranged attack in the game, that’s enough on it’s own. It then becomes useful in pve because you can stack in melee range and it’s still plenty balanced in pvp because melee will still hit for more and the bow lacks survival skills beyond a short stealth so you’re toast when they inevitably close the gap.

Then, if any balance issues do crop up, they can shave off damage from the auto till it works without having to drastically retool the skills.

Substance E.4852:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I just want to recap the design philosophy behind the longbow, so we’re all on the same table again:
The longbow is meant to deal damage at range. Noone ever said it should deal high damage.
However, there is the major flaw that we aren’t able to utilize the range we’ve been given. This applies both to WvW, where we aren’t able to maintain our range to justify the longbow, and PvE, where is simply no need to bring in a ranged weapon.
So there are two things we could do to fix the flaw.
1) Scrap the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range and it wouldn’t need to if we would say that the longbow is meant to deal high damage on any range.
2) Fix the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range. Therefore we have to add cripples and immobilizes to effectively maintain our range. This would be fairly easy to do for WvW, but maintaining the range in PvE isn’t the problem. The problem is, that there is no need to range anything. You can melee all day long in PvE. So ANet has either to deliver content tailored to using long range weapons or they have to buff the longbow to a certain extent, so it’s more desireable to use longrange weapons than melee weapons. Either way, they probably have to buff the damage atleast a bit.

It’d be far easier to simply remove the range penalty on the auto attack. It doesn’t need a bonus effect if it’s already the hardest hitting ranged attack in the game, that’s enough on it’s own. It then becomes useful in pve because you can stack in melee range and it’s still plenty balanced in pvp because melee will still hit for more and the bow lacks survival skills beyond a short stealth so you’re toast when they inevitably close the gap.

Then, if any balance issues do crop up, they can shave off damage from the auto till it works without having to drastically retool the skills.

Looks like a band-aid solution to me. Melee weapons should be more effective in melee range than ranged weapons. It is stupid to stand directly in front of the enemie and “snipe” him. It may be the easiest fix but it’s also the most silly fix I can think of.
They can, however, decrease the minimum range for the maximum damage required.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Substance E.4852:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I just want to recap the design philosophy behind the longbow, so we’re all on the same table again:
The longbow is meant to deal damage at range. Noone ever said it should deal high damage.
However, there is the major flaw that we aren’t able to utilize the range we’ve been given. This applies both to WvW, where we aren’t able to maintain our range to justify the longbow, and PvE, where is simply no need to bring in a ranged weapon.
So there are two things we could do to fix the flaw.
1) Scrap the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range and it wouldn’t need to if we would say that the longbow is meant to deal high damage on any range.
2) Fix the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range. Therefore we have to add cripples and immobilizes to effectively maintain our range. This would be fairly easy to do for WvW, but maintaining the range in PvE isn’t the problem. The problem is, that there is no need to range anything. You can melee all day long in PvE. So ANet has either to deliver content tailored to using long range weapons or they have to buff the longbow to a certain extent, so it’s more desireable to use longrange weapons than melee weapons. Either way, they probably have to buff the damage atleast a bit.

It’d be far easier to simply remove the range penalty on the auto attack. It doesn’t need a bonus effect if it’s already the hardest hitting ranged attack in the game, that’s enough on it’s own. It then becomes useful in pve because you can stack in melee range and it’s still plenty balanced in pvp because melee will still hit for more and the bow lacks survival skills beyond a short stealth so you’re toast when they inevitably close the gap.

Then, if any balance issues do crop up, they can shave off damage from the auto till it works without having to drastically retool the skills.

Looks like a band-aid solution to me. Melee weapons should be more effective in melee range than ranged weapons. It is stupid to stand directly in front of the enemie and “snipe” him. It may be the easiest fix but it’s also the most silly fix I can think of.
They can, however, decrease the minimum range for the maximum damage required.

It still wouldn’t do more than the 1H sword. And as I said, they can then shave down the damage if it starts to break the “melee > ranged dps” rule.

It may be a band-aid fix, but that’s how Anet rolls with Ranger fixes anyway…

Substance E.4852:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Substance E.4852:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I just want to recap the design philosophy behind the longbow, so we’re all on the same table again:
The longbow is meant to deal damage at range. Noone ever said it should deal high damage.
However, there is the major flaw that we aren’t able to utilize the range we’ve been given. This applies both to WvW, where we aren’t able to maintain our range to justify the longbow, and PvE, where is simply no need to bring in a ranged weapon.
So there are two things we could do to fix the flaw.
1) Scrap the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range and it wouldn’t need to if we would say that the longbow is meant to deal high damage on any range.
2) Fix the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range. Therefore we have to add cripples and immobilizes to effectively maintain our range. This would be fairly easy to do for WvW, but maintaining the range in PvE isn’t the problem. The problem is, that there is no need to range anything. You can melee all day long in PvE. So ANet has either to deliver content tailored to using long range weapons or they have to buff the longbow to a certain extent, so it’s more desireable to use longrange weapons than melee weapons. Either way, they probably have to buff the damage atleast a bit.

It’d be far easier to simply remove the range penalty on the auto attack. It doesn’t need a bonus effect if it’s already the hardest hitting ranged attack in the game, that’s enough on it’s own. It then becomes useful in pve because you can stack in melee range and it’s still plenty balanced in pvp because melee will still hit for more and the bow lacks survival skills beyond a short stealth so you’re toast when they inevitably close the gap.

Then, if any balance issues do crop up, they can shave off damage from the auto till it works without having to drastically retool the skills.

Looks like a band-aid solution to me. Melee weapons should be more effective in melee range than ranged weapons. It is stupid to stand directly in front of the enemie and “snipe” him. It may be the easiest fix but it’s also the most silly fix I can think of.
They can, however, decrease the minimum range for the maximum damage required.

It still wouldn’t do more than the 1H sword. And as I said, they can then shave down the damage if it starts to break the “melee > ranged dps” rule.

It may be a band-aid fix, but that’s how Anet rolls with Ranger fixes anyway…

The damage would probably be “normalized.” AKA, the new damage value would be the current mid range damage value.

Aridia.3042:

1. Saying a 3 second stealth will let you reposition is like saying a leap that moves 50 spaces instead of 900 is closing a gap.

Again. Repositioning doesn’t mean a free range reset. Just because stealth doesn’t fulfill the purpose you’d like it to fulfill doesn’t mean it is useless. I run a low stealth Mesmer build in PvP without Blink and I can assure you it does still have an enormous effect. As much as I hate bringing this up in discussions because it feels condescending, not being able to utilize a 3s stealth most certainly is a L2P issue.

Aridia.3042:

Range weapons are meant to kite.

THIS is your issue and the one many Rangers have. They expect to be able to permanently kite and shoot arrows from a distance. GW2 doesn’t work this way and will never do so because it lacks classic profession restrictions which would make such an Archer playstyle possible. That is why melee weapons generally deal more damage. That is why refraining from picking up a melee weapon at least as secondary set will result in an overall worse performance than if you did so.

To phrase it in a different way: Your expectations (for the LB) don’t fit the game design.

Aridia.3042:

2. You cover anything that you want to stay on the target. You don’t cover the cripple because you don’t see the value of kiting.

Wrong. I personally wouldn’t bother covering the Cripple specifically because there are other things which increase my performance or flexibility by far more. As long as you are willing to switch out of LB and don’t insist on playing a pure archer that is. If you insist to be an archer, be willing to make the sacrifices you need to make to succeed. I mentioned Sharpened Edges as cover up. Durzlla talked about adding sigils. But somehow you always find a reason to shrug suggestions off as unviable.

Aridia.3042:

And no, I will never use a trait that’s worse than a sigil. If that doesn’t tell you how broken that trait is that a 16s sigil could effectively replace and surpass it, I guess there’s no point to discuss class balancing at that point.

Sigils are no benchmark for balancing traits. Especially not their tradepost value.

jcbroe.4329:

Substance E.4852:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Substance E.4852:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I just want to recap the design philosophy behind the longbow, so we’re all on the same table again:
The longbow is meant to deal damage at range. Noone ever said it should deal high damage.
However, there is the major flaw that we aren’t able to utilize the range we’ve been given. This applies both to WvW, where we aren’t able to maintain our range to justify the longbow, and PvE, where is simply no need to bring in a ranged weapon.
So there are two things we could do to fix the flaw.
1) Scrap the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range and it wouldn’t need to if we would say that the longbow is meant to deal high damage on any range.
2) Fix the definition. The longbow can’t maintain it’s range. Therefore we have to add cripples and immobilizes to effectively maintain our range. This would be fairly easy to do for WvW, but maintaining the range in PvE isn’t the problem. The problem is, that there is no need to range anything. You can melee all day long in PvE. So ANet has either to deliver content tailored to using long range weapons or they have to buff the longbow to a certain extent, so it’s more desireable to use longrange weapons than melee weapons. Either way, they probably have to buff the damage atleast a bit.

It’d be far easier to simply remove the range penalty on the auto attack. It doesn’t need a bonus effect if it’s already the hardest hitting ranged attack in the game, that’s enough on it’s own. It then becomes useful in pve because you can stack in melee range and it’s still plenty balanced in pvp because melee will still hit for more and the bow lacks survival skills beyond a short stealth so you’re toast when they inevitably close the gap.

Then, if any balance issues do crop up, they can shave off damage from the auto till it works without having to drastically retool the skills.

Looks like a band-aid solution to me. Melee weapons should be more effective in melee range than ranged weapons. It is stupid to stand directly in front of the enemie and “snipe” him. It may be the easiest fix but it’s also the most silly fix I can think of.
They can, however, decrease the minimum range for the maximum damage required.

It still wouldn’t do more than the 1H sword. And as I said, they can then shave down the damage if it starts to break the “melee > ranged dps” rule.

It may be a band-aid fix, but that’s how Anet rolls with Ranger fixes anyway…

The damage would probably be “normalized.” AKA, the new damage value would be the current mid range damage value.

Which is fine if you ask me. The mid range value for the Longbow is about the same DPS as the shortbow. The shortbow pulls ahead if you can flank the target just 25% of the time. 100% of the time, even with 0 condi and a straight up power build, the sbow wins by a sizable margin.

I say normalize the damage and give the Longbow something else at the extended range and/or flanking to make it more of a unique weapon to set it apart from the shortbow.

For example:
Middle range damage regardless of range, 10% chance to crit when flanking, +10% crit dmg for 900 range.

I also agree with the other main discussion above… that the kiting advantages of the class simply don’t compete with the anti-kiting tools given to other classes. I’m still convinced that if this class were given a ‘fast hands’ trait like Warriors got so they could quickly swap between melee and range things would be fine though.

There are plenty of tools in other weapon sets to help kite or at least withstand melee combat for a fair amount of time. The issue is once you’ve burned through these cooldowns (especially in the case of the greatsword) you’re kind of stuck in a weapon that you haven’t traited to support (because Longbow requires such an enormous investment to be mediocre) with poor damage.

We also have the advantage of being rangers, so we’d probably avoid a lot of the complaints Warriors are currently getting over their fast hands trait.

if rangers were given a trait that increased movement speed and/or endurance regeneration when using bows (like ele with scepter trait, or ele with dagger traits/ warrior with melee weapon trait) then we would be in a stronger position, overall, as a “archery” class.
Personally, i prefer to use a mix of melee and ranged. But i would be overjoyed to get a trait that gave +X% movement speed and return X% endurance when dodging while having a bow/ increased endurance regen while having a bow. It would make my life on ranged builds a whole lot easier.

Prysin.8542:

if rangers were given a trait that increased movement speed and/or endurance regeneration when using bows (like ele with scepter trait, or ele with dagger traits/ warrior with melee weapon trait) then we would be in a stronger position, overall, as a “archery” class.
Personally, i prefer to use a mix of melee and ranged. But i would be overjoyed to get a trait that gave +X% movement speed and return X% endurance when dodging while having a bow/ increased endurance regen while having a bow. It would make my life on ranged builds a whole lot easier.

Also a very flavorful and fun idea imo. Could attach it to agility training or something perhaps.

In order to make space for better functionality between the pet and ranger, i suggest we make certain skills into a specific type of skill that i, for the sake of simplicity during explanation, will refer to as “Synergy” skills.
These skills would be skills on weapons/utilities that grant bonuses to pet AND ranger (shouts are not part of this, because shouts need a trait to add bonus to the ranger)

Currently existing Synergy skills;
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot (pet swiftness)
wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippling_Shot (next 3 pet attacks applies bleeding)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hilt_Bash (pet gains attack of opportunity)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pounce (pet get might)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winter%27s_Bite (Next pet attack applies weakness)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rampage_As_One (ranger and pet stack might on each other when they attack)

These skills would have separate bonuses attached to them;

Adept Traits:
Synergetic Flow:
Synergy skills apply swiftness to allies in a area upon successful hit
Swiftness 6 seconds
ICD: 10 seconds

Dinner for two:
You and your pet has 25% chance to steal health when using a synergy skill
Healing: 325
Damage to foe: 325
ICD: 7 seconds

Return the favor:
Your pet’s next attack will transfer a boon from the enemy to you when using a synergy skill.
ICD: 15 second

Master Trait:
Natural Synergy:
Synergy skill cooldowns are reduced by 20%

Grandmaster Trait:
United we stand:
Boons from Synergy skills now apply to allies in small area.
Radius: 600

How would this affect the play between ranger and pet? In short, it would reward skillful and it would further push towards a more distinct use for pets, outside of DPS and utility.
It would also provide another way of further developing the ranger, outside of it’s current roles and functions. More weapons/utilities could get different bonuses. Pet attacks could grant bonuses to ranger, and so on.

Why make Rampage as One as a Synergy skill? And won’t it be OP if rangers can apply a whopping 20+ seconds of stability to allies?
Yes and no. Even with a reduced duration of 24 seconds, a 96 seconds cooldown elite, requiring 30 trait points to share a set of buffs, is more then balanced. No other profession need to trait that deep, to get such a bonus, and still have such a cooldown to deal with. It would however make rangers exceedingly more popular in group/large scale play. As we would be able to give massive amounts of support, without having to sacrifice personal performance in order to obtain such support. (currently, spirits is one of our best supports, and one of our greatest limitations outside of s/tPvP).
Rangers would also be much more welcome in high end PvE content, as sword AA rotation would grant might to allies (might duration should therefor be reduced from 5 to 2.5 seconds to prevent excessive stacking)