Guild Wars 2

God Tier :
Warrior
Sagat from SF4 vanilla

Top Tier :
Ele – Thief
Lack of HP

Guard
Lack of DPS

Medium Tier :
Ranger
Lack of Pet

Low Tier:
Necro
Please, spam 1 with axe

Mesmer
Random guardian’s buff generator.
Pray to get the good one.

Engi
Select your kit and spam 1.

Posted in the wrong thread. But hopefully these lists shed some light on things players have said for a long time.

Jerus.4350:

Ryn.6459:

hybrid.5027:

coglin.1867:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Ropechef.6192:

if you read the reddit thread you will also see the link to the spreadsheet.

http://dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/13987449-dps-estimates-for-each-professions-in-30s-battles

This is outdated. In no way at the moment a warrior’s dps is better than a ranger’s or an engi’s

Wait a second. You just berated me in a previous post and said….

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Those tests were made with meta builds, meta gear, and yes they are legit. If you don’t wanna believe it and delude yourself, go ahead, I’m not going to search for further proof. If you wanna do further research do it yourself. I just posted the truth. I couldn’t care less if you believe it or not.

Yet now you claim it is out dated and not factually accurate. Hypocrite much?

That is the same spread sheet in that thread I was referring too. What was the term you used for this situation? “Delude yourself” I think it was?

Yes, the spreadsheet in that thread was from the old meta. Since that spreadsheet was done…

1. Warriors got two distinct nerfs to their dps.
2. Rangers got a massive buff
3. We improved our Engineer DPS rotation further

DeKeyz has not published full updated data but that ranking…

Thief, ele, engineer, ranger, warrior, guardian, mesmer, necro is accurate. I’m not upset if you won’t take my word for it, but you can adjust it yourself if need be. Take the warrior numbers from that spreadsheet and subtract 2.5% direct dps. Take the ranger numbers and add about 15% direct dps. That change should be more the sufficient to explain the flip flop of those two professions. As far as engineer goes, Grenade barrage, Acid Bomb, Jump Shot, Blunderbuss is the most powerful burst dps in the game, and they have very high sustained DPS now thanks to Detonate Flame Blast.

-Nike

Im working in my engi rotations. In the meanwhile, do you know how much dps is lost for (lets say worst escenario) just nade spamming?

I’ve been wondering this too.

I was able to look at one of their calculations for the max DPS and removing some of the attacks and replacing it with just grenade1’s we’re looking at like 60-70% of the damage of the full rotation. But, to note, you also lose all that burst, which is important in some situations. Just to be clear though that’s a estimation, not factual data and I believe I left in the rifle usage in there so just removed the elixer/flamethrower and bombs from dodges.

What puzzles me is that I need 60-65 secs to “kill” the indestructible golem on the mists 3 times either with nades spamming or with a proper nades/FT/EG/rifle rotation.

Simon.3794:

Engi is top notch pve class right now superior then warrior.

just saying.

Not really. Warrior has banners, no one can replace that.

purecontact.1680:

God Tier :
Warrior
Sagat from SF4 vanilla

Engi
Select your kit and spam 1.

Wat.

There’s really no reason to take more than 1 warrior in a speedrun.

Engi has the most complex rotation out of all classes in the game.

I don’t have a definitive list. Rather, I often bring certain profession depending on what’s in the dungeon path I’m doing.

For example, I bring my Engineer for CoE path 1, because with grenade kit and a turret or two, I can single-handily clear golems from the console after the golem boss, letting the other four players activate the console at once, bypassing the majority of that fight. My Engi is also my main, with ascended armor and the highest agony resist of all my characters, so she’s also the profession I play high level fractals as well.

I’ve started to bring my Mesmer for CoF paths 1 &3 for utility purposes. I can use portal to help the party to get through the rolling boulders in path 1 and the exploding orb gauntlet in path 3, which is a great thing to have when people are having trouble getting through those parts.

My Warrior is often played… when I don’t want to think to much about what I’m doing, but also the profession I always bring for Arah now, because it’s the profession I learned to melee Lupi with, and the one I’m most comfortable with when using that strat.

Those are the ones I stick to anyway; anything beyond that is whatever tickles my fancy. Thief is probably the profession I take most to dungeons after the three above. Shadow Refuge is great for running past mobs, and also works for the gauntlet in CoF path 3 as well, because the orbs don’t blow up if you’re stealthed. Guardian is next, followed by Necromancer and Ranger. Elementalist is the only one I don’t take for dungeons, but that’s largely because I didn’t have a level 80 Ele until this very morning, so that might change soon.

Ryn.6459:

Jerus.4350:

Ryn.6459:

hybrid.5027:

coglin.1867:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Ropechef.6192:

if you read the reddit thread you will also see the link to the spreadsheet.

http://dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/13987449-dps-estimates-for-each-professions-in-30s-battles

This is outdated. In no way at the moment a warrior’s dps is better than a ranger’s or an engi’s

Wait a second. You just berated me in a previous post and said….

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Those tests were made with meta builds, meta gear, and yes they are legit. If you don’t wanna believe it and delude yourself, go ahead, I’m not going to search for further proof. If you wanna do further research do it yourself. I just posted the truth. I couldn’t care less if you believe it or not.

Yet now you claim it is out dated and not factually accurate. Hypocrite much?

That is the same spread sheet in that thread I was referring too. What was the term you used for this situation? “Delude yourself” I think it was?

Yes, the spreadsheet in that thread was from the old meta. Since that spreadsheet was done…

1. Warriors got two distinct nerfs to their dps.
2. Rangers got a massive buff
3. We improved our Engineer DPS rotation further

DeKeyz has not published full updated data but that ranking…

Thief, ele, engineer, ranger, warrior, guardian, mesmer, necro is accurate. I’m not upset if you won’t take my word for it, but you can adjust it yourself if need be. Take the warrior numbers from that spreadsheet and subtract 2.5% direct dps. Take the ranger numbers and add about 15% direct dps. That change should be more the sufficient to explain the flip flop of those two professions. As far as engineer goes, Grenade barrage, Acid Bomb, Jump Shot, Blunderbuss is the most powerful burst dps in the game, and they have very high sustained DPS now thanks to Detonate Flame Blast.

-Nike

Im working in my engi rotations. In the meanwhile, do you know how much dps is lost for (lets say worst escenario) just nade spamming?

I’ve been wondering this too.

I was able to look at one of their calculations for the max DPS and removing some of the attacks and replacing it with just grenade1’s we’re looking at like 60-70% of the damage of the full rotation. But, to note, you also lose all that burst, which is important in some situations. Just to be clear though that’s a estimation, not factual data and I believe I left in the rifle usage in there so just removed the elixer/flamethrower and bombs from dodges.

What puzzles me is that I need 60-65 secs to “kill” the indestructible golem on the mists 3 times either with nades spamming or with a proper nades/FT/EG/rifle rotation.

Doing it the other day I was seeing about 2-4s faster with the proper rotation performed poorly compared to full grenades.

There very much is a difference in performance as well. The rotation is harder to perform and if you fumble you’re adding extra time making the DPS lower than optimally performed.

And like personally I often cancel my Acid Bomb before it actually activates… that’s purely wasted time without the effect, screwing up the entire rotation. Really a lot of things that can go wrong with that acid bomb, get launched too far away and suddenly you may miss the initial hit of jump shot, or be wasting time running in. Get “stuck” in the kit and end up firing off your Elixer Gun 5 for no reason instead of jump shot.

I’ve also had a lot of bad luck with Flame Blast, it just disappeared but doesn’t seem to give any effect. I’m not really sure on the damage part (always a lot of number flowing around) but the blast effect isn’t always showing even if I’m on the field spamming the 2 key.

Point being, while going from that optimally performed equation spamming grenades is something like 60-70% damage if my estimation is at all correct. But, that’s optimally performed rotation, if you can’t do that then you may not be all that bad off just going for the easier rotation. It’s not like warrior or Guard rotation where you just kind of wait for an AA round to finish and hit a button. There’s a bit more difficulty to it, at least imo.

Foefaller.1082:

For example, I bring my Engineer for CoE path 1, because with grenade kit and a turret or two, I can single-handily clear golems from the console after the golem boss, letting the other four players activate the console at once, bypassing the majority of that fight. My Engi is also my main, with ascended armor and the highest agony resist of all my characters, so she’s also the profession I play high level fractals as well.

Have you tried Bomb Kit on that part? Should be able to just spam 1 and win, but might toss on the larger blast radius trait to guaranteed success.

Jerus.4350:

Ryn.6459:

Jerus.4350:

Ryn.6459:

hybrid.5027:

coglin.1867:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Ropechef.6192:

if you read the reddit thread you will also see the link to the spreadsheet.

http://dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/13987449-dps-estimates-for-each-professions-in-30s-battles

This is outdated. In no way at the moment a warrior’s dps is better than a ranger’s or an engi’s

Wait a second. You just berated me in a previous post and said….

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Those tests were made with meta builds, meta gear, and yes they are legit. If you don’t wanna believe it and delude yourself, go ahead, I’m not going to search for further proof. If you wanna do further research do it yourself. I just posted the truth. I couldn’t care less if you believe it or not.

Yet now you claim it is out dated and not factually accurate. Hypocrite much?

That is the same spread sheet in that thread I was referring too. What was the term you used for this situation? “Delude yourself” I think it was?

Yes, the spreadsheet in that thread was from the old meta. Since that spreadsheet was done…

1. Warriors got two distinct nerfs to their dps.
2. Rangers got a massive buff
3. We improved our Engineer DPS rotation further

DeKeyz has not published full updated data but that ranking…

Thief, ele, engineer, ranger, warrior, guardian, mesmer, necro is accurate. I’m not upset if you won’t take my word for it, but you can adjust it yourself if need be. Take the warrior numbers from that spreadsheet and subtract 2.5% direct dps. Take the ranger numbers and add about 15% direct dps. That change should be more the sufficient to explain the flip flop of those two professions. As far as engineer goes, Grenade barrage, Acid Bomb, Jump Shot, Blunderbuss is the most powerful burst dps in the game, and they have very high sustained DPS now thanks to Detonate Flame Blast.

-Nike

Im working in my engi rotations. In the meanwhile, do you know how much dps is lost for (lets say worst escenario) just nade spamming?

I’ve been wondering this too.

I was able to look at one of their calculations for the max DPS and removing some of the attacks and replacing it with just grenade1’s we’re looking at like 60-70% of the damage of the full rotation. But, to note, you also lose all that burst, which is important in some situations. Just to be clear though that’s a estimation, not factual data and I believe I left in the rifle usage in there so just removed the elixer/flamethrower and bombs from dodges.

What puzzles me is that I need 60-65 secs to “kill” the indestructible golem on the mists 3 times either with nades spamming or with a proper nades/FT/EG/rifle rotation.

Doing it the other day I was seeing about 2-4s faster with the proper rotation performed poorly compared to full grenades.

There very much is a difference in performance as well. The rotation is harder to perform and if you fumble you’re adding extra time making the DPS lower than optimally performed.

And like personally I often cancel my Acid Bomb before it actually activates… that’s purely wasted time without the effect, screwing up the entire rotation. Really a lot of things that can go wrong with that acid bomb, get launched too far away and suddenly you may miss the initial hit of jump shot, or be wasting time running in. Get “stuck” in the kit and end up firing off your Elixer Gun 5 for no reason instead of jump shot.

I’ve also had a lot of bad luck with Flame Blast, it just disappeared but doesn’t seem to give any effect. I’m not really sure on the damage part (always a lot of number flowing around) but the blast effect isn’t always showing even if I’m on the field spamming the 2 key.

Point being, while going from that optimally performed equation spamming grenades is something like 60-70% damage if my estimation is at all correct. But, that’s optimally performed rotation, if you can’t do that then you may not be all that bad off just going for the easier rotation. It’s not like warrior or Guard rotation where you just kind of wait for an AA round to finish and hit a button. There’s a bit more difficulty to it, at least imo.

70% would put engis at warrior level, good enough for me in pugs.
I dont know. I do the rotation (on the mist) properly. I guess, then, I am too slow with each weapon change.

Jerus.4350:

Foefaller.1082:

For example, I bring my Engineer for CoE path 1, because with grenade kit and a turret or two, I can single-handily clear golems from the console after the golem boss, letting the other four players activate the console at once, bypassing the majority of that fight. My Engi is also my main, with ascended armor and the highest agony resist of all my characters, so she’s also the profession I play high level fractals as well.

Have you tried Bomb Kit on that part? Should be able to just spam 1 and win, but might toss on the larger blast radius trait to guaranteed success.

True, but when I am the 1 of the 4-1 strat, I usually sit a ways back from the console and let how the grenades spread out over distance work in my favor: the turrets (usually just a thumper) are really there for insurance, and to be honest it’s possible the only real purpose they actually serve is making me feel more comfortable about the role I’m taking.

But basically my point is that when I want to do X path, my thought process is not “What is the best profession for dungeons” but “What is the best profession I can bring for the part that always seems to trip people up?”

I notice a lot of people saying that Necros would be better if their specialties (boon strip, weakness, chill, conditions) were more important in pve, but I actually disagree. Other classes can perform all of these functions equally or better while still bringing superior utility or dps. Blinds? Thieves bring black powder, which is far better than Well of Darkness and Deathly Swarm, and also bring the utility of stealth and far higher single target dps. Similarly, other classes are capable of making minor sacrifices to personal dps for high levels of chill and weakness application. Thieves and mesmers can handle boon stripping with highly spammable abilities (mesmers get it on an autoattack!), which is generally better in pve than the burst removal that necro brings.

In other words, necros bring middling dps, they don’t give the really important pve boons and conditions (might, fury, vulnerability, stability, sometimes weakness/aegis in fractals), and the utility they do bring is usually overshadowed by classes with similar abilities but more utility/dps. If there were enemies that required condition damage to kill, you would see groups taking things like bleed warriors or condi engineers, since they can provide similar levels of condition damage while still bringing group utility. If better management of conditions on the party is needed, you bring a guardian- better damage, better group cleanse, and they have aegis.

In other words, necros need SOME form of group contribution, because right now it’s basically zero. Some suggestions that I have seen around the forums:

Making them spit out tons of vulnerability and weakness with less of a personal dps loss (buff to withering precision? siphoned power is also a good candidate for total rework/replacement, given that it’s currently useless)

Improve their utility for pve use (significantly lower the cooldown on things like well of darkness, well of power, and deathly swarm; signet of vampirism is another good place to add some sort of group support/dps increase)

Enhancing group damage (I have seen suggestions of a group ferocity buff, similar to spotter for rangers; furious demise applying fury in an aoe; blood is power granting 3-5 might to nearby group members)

SEPARATE ISSUES:

On an unrelated note, I feel that Mesmers suffer from phantasms being such a huge part of their personal dps, since any boss with large aoes can more or less render them useless; they need the ability to contribute to an encounter in a less fragile way or future balance will be extremely difficult.

Finally, it looks like projectile attacks are a big part of encounter design, but warriors and necros lack a block or reflect for group members- I would suggest that giving these two classes this type of ability would allow encounter designers to make smart use of projectile destruction essential, increasing the potential diversity in future encounter design. (Also, maybe limit reflect damage so that it’s a nice bonus but doesn’t totally break encounters?)

Ryn.6459:

70% would put engis at warrior level, good enough for me in pugs.
I dont know. I do the rotation (on the mist) properly. I guess, then, I am too slow with each weapon change.

Yeah I think i’m doing it pretty well too but apparently not, it seems slightly better but not as massive as I’d expect looking at the math stuff.

This is the post I’m referring to:
http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/15386797-optimal-dps-rotation
You can watch the video and see the coefficients he has and adds up over a 30s duration.

Watching it and reading it again, their rotation is different than the more basic one I’ve been doing of just Barrage->Napalm->Flameblast->Acid bomb->Jump Shot->blunderbuss->grenade stuff till 2 shrapnel are done and repeat minus naplam and jump shot. So there’s at least some of the damage I’m not maximizing.

@ Foefaller, yeah I just wanted to throw that out there as it’s pretty silly easy, generally we stack 4 people up on top of the console and the engi just stands underneath it and spams 1 on bomb kit and everything dies without having to do really anything else.

I would actually put Necos at #2 on boon removal, after Mesmers, especially if we’re talking AoE boon removal (something that showed up this Halloween with the Skeletal Lich) Thief’s Larcenous Strike might be a more spamable single-target than Necro boon removal skills, but that’s one at a time, and my personal experience with boons in PvE is that the times you really want to take them off, you want to take off 2 or more boons in a single skill, not one at a time through a skill chain… and those that reapply them quickly do so at a rate that even a Mesmer can’t really keep up on.

That isn’t to say that Nerco’s are fine as they are in terms of dungeon performance, but I do think increasing the demand for things they excel at like boon removal will make them more desirable to bring along.

Jerus.4350:

Ryn.6459:

70% would put engis at warrior level, good enough for me in pugs.
I dont know. I do the rotation (on the mist) properly. I guess, then, I am too slow with each weapon change.

Yeah I think i’m doing it pretty well too but apparently not, it seems slightly better but not as massive as I’d expect looking at the math stuff.

This is the post I’m referring to:
http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/15386797-optimal-dps-rotation
You can watch the video and see the coefficients he has and adds up over a 30s duration.

Watching it and reading it again, their rotation is different than the more basic one I’ve been doing of just Barrage->Napalm->Flameblast->Acid bomb->Jump Shot->blunderbuss->grenade stuff till 2 shrapnel are done and repeat minus naplam and jump shot. So there’s at least some of the damage I’m not maximizing.

@ Foefaller, yeah I just wanted to throw that out there as it’s pretty silly easy, generally we stack 4 people up on top of the console and the engi just stands underneath it and spams 1 on bomb kit and everything dies without having to do really anything else.

Mmh he doesnt bother into might stacking (guess he assume that will come from the party), so the actual dps is going to be lower than what he claim.

Foefaller.1082:

I don’t have a definitive list. Rather, I often bring certain profession depending on what’s in the dungeon path I’m doing.

For example, I bring my Engineer for CoE path 1, because with grenade kit and a turret or two, I can single-handily clear golems from the console after the golem boss, letting the other four players activate the console at once, bypassing the majority of that fight. My Engi is also my main, with ascended armor and the highest agony resist of all my characters, so she’s also the profession I play high level fractals as well.

Too complicated. Stay just under platform and spam bomb 1

Ryn.6459:

Jerus.4350:

Ryn.6459:

70% would put engis at warrior level, good enough for me in pugs.
I dont know. I do the rotation (on the mist) properly. I guess, then, I am too slow with each weapon change.

Yeah I think i’m doing it pretty well too but apparently not, it seems slightly better but not as massive as I’d expect looking at the math stuff.

This is the post I’m referring to:
http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/15386797-optimal-dps-rotation
You can watch the video and see the coefficients he has and adds up over a 30s duration.

Watching it and reading it again, their rotation is different than the more basic one I’ve been doing of just Barrage->Napalm->Flameblast->Acid bomb->Jump Shot->blunderbuss->grenade stuff till 2 shrapnel are done and repeat minus naplam and jump shot. So there’s at least some of the damage I’m not maximizing.

@ Foefaller, yeah I just wanted to throw that out there as it’s pretty silly easy, generally we stack 4 people up on top of the console and the engi just stands underneath it and spams 1 on bomb kit and everything dies without having to do really anything else.

Mmh he doesnt bother into might stacking (guess he assume that will come from the party), so the actual dps is going to be lower than what he claim.

Mhm, but that’s not that unlikely if you have a good Ele, lots of ways to get fire fields too and you’re throwing out 2 blasts pretty regularly.

That said, I think the rotation they showed is pretty insanely intense and unrealistic so yeah feeling better about my sub par performance as I’d be pretty impressed to see anyone pull that off regularly while fighting something. You’re wasting dodges for damage which right there is unrealistic, then just keeping track of all those cooldowns while having to put in dodges and other avoidance things while it’s happening, just seems a bit unrealistic.

Still worth working towards as again personally I’m seeing a few seconds faster kills on that robot and I know I’m not doing it perfectly. I mean Acid Bomb is 100blades damage but much much faster if you execute it properly. At the very least getting jump shot and blunderbuss in with grenades. And then Flame Blast is very easy to land and you get the extra burning damage from the toolbelt and static discharge damage, as well as the fire field for might stacking, just all around good rotation if you don’t need other utilities which granted sometimes you do.

Jelzouki.4128:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Great thread. I’d like to know more about why people make the choices they do, and some provided that info. Overall, though, it’s really interesting to read the lists!

It’s not that hard to figure out the meta for dungeon running. I hope you really are just interested in hearing other peoples opinions as opposed to actually not knowing which classes are the best to take. If that’s the case and you don’t know then why bother working on this game if you’re not going to play it enough to know what’s good and what’s bad?

Rather harsh response towards a dev feigning interest :/

3. Thief on CM
2. Guardian on SE and TA
1. Warrior on everything else.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Wat.

There’s really no reason to take more than 1 warrior in a speedrun.

I don’t talk about speedrun, why should I ?
Do you spend your time speedrunning dungeons or you run them casual ?
As far as I’m concern, I run more casualrun than speedrun.

Necromancers with group lifesteal potential would be a good party contribution, something like the signet heal but actually useful, as well as maybe a ferocity buff in line with spotter or empower allies.

With that said, mesmers need some sort of damage buff (be it personal or phantasm) to get in line with other professions, and necromancers need lots of help.

Necromancers baddong, everything else is fine.

Here’s my list and reasons:

TOP TIER

1.) The Guardian
-Heart of the party, most reliable reflects and defensive options without sacrificing damage (reflects, aegis, party healing). Some fights with high projectile counts (i.e. Bloomhunger, Harpy Fractal, Grawl Shaman Frac 50) are downright nightmares without a guard.

2.) The Warrior (DPS)
Highest melee dps in the game, insane buffs with indestructible banners that skyrockets the party killing power. Also able to party save and boost the group damage to 20-25+ might with Warbanner, the best PvE elite in the game.

3.) The Elementalist (Support)
-Single best support class in the game. Most reliable might stacker, high area damage, conjure frost bow is the best area aoe and structure destroyer in the game. Can grant more boons and auras than any other class.

MID TIER:

4.) The Ranger (DPS)
Very high sword melee dps. Best water field in the game. Decent damage boosters with frost spirit and spotter. Spirit of Nature is very strong in PvE. Overshadowed by warrior due to indestructable banners and the ranger’s reliance on pets. Pet insufficiency is mitigated somewhat if using drakes, which do decent damage, blast on fields, and have strong F2s. Drakes also redirect enemy damage to themselves due to high toughness in comparison to the rest of the group, some bosses can be drake tanked.

5.) Mesmer (Support)
Good portal skipping tricks, strong damage when traited right + reflects and support. Also has the second best PvE elite next to warbanner (Timewarp). Substitute support for the ele, which is better in all realms of support and damage.

6.) Thief (Damage/Support)
Good sword damage but high risk. Stealth allows for mass skipping and sometimes entire segment skipping (such as CM). Limited tricks outside of basic weapon skills but best blast finisher in the game (cluster bomb). Overshadowed by the mesmer and the ele. Both are better choices.

LOW TIER:

7.) Engineer (Damage/Support)
Good area damage with grenades and limited stealth. Can stack decent vul but has semi-dependency on conditions (most of which are overshadowed by the guardian’s 100% burning uptime). Good blast finishers, limited usefulness of utility skills and kits. No good PvE Elites, grenades have a low rate of fire and lose damage because of how long they are airborne.

NECROMANCER:

8.) Necromancer (No PvE Use)
By far the weakest class. Heavily condition dependent. Minions are useless in PvE with lack of good targeting and focus fire options. What useful power skills that they have (Lich, Wells) are on high CDs. No good autoattack options that hit multiple targets. Terrible aoe outside of wells. Needs serious PvE help.

Jerus.4350:

Ryn.6459:

Jerus.4350:

Ryn.6459:

70% would put engis at warrior level, good enough for me in pugs.
I dont know. I do the rotation (on the mist) properly. I guess, then, I am too slow with each weapon change.

Yeah I think i’m doing it pretty well too but apparently not, it seems slightly better but not as massive as I’d expect looking at the math stuff.
O
This is the post I’m referring to:
http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/15386797-optimal-dps-rotation
You can watch the video and see the coefficients he has and adds up over a 30s duration.

Watching it and reading it again, their rotation is different than the more basic one I’ve been doing of just Barrage->Napalm->Flameblast->Acid bomb->Jump Shot->blunderbuss->grenade stuff till 2 shrapnel are done and repeat minus naplam and jump shot. So there’s at least some of the damage I’m not maximizing.

@ Foefaller, yeah I just wanted to throw that out there as it’s pretty silly easy, generally we stack 4 people up on top of the console and the engi just stands underneath it and spams 1 on bomb kit and everything dies without having to do really anything else.

Mmh he doesnt bother into might stacking (guess he assume that will come from the party), so the actual dps is going to be lower than what he claim.

Mhm, but that’s not that unlikely if you have a good Ele, lots of ways to get fire fields too and you’re throwing out 2 blasts pretty regularly.

That said, I think the rotation they showed is pretty insanely intense and unrealistic so yeah feeling better about my sub par performance as I’d be pretty impressed to see anyone pull that off regularly while fighting something. You’re wasting dodges for damage which right there is unrealistic, then just keeping track of all those cooldowns while having to put in dodges and other avoidance things while it’s happening, just seems a bit unrealistic.

Still worth working towards as again personally I’m seeing a few seconds faster kills on that robot and I know I’m not doing it perfectly. I mean Acid Bomb is 100blades damage but much much faster if you execute it properly. At the very least getting jump shot and blunderbuss in with grenades. And then Flame Blast is very easy to land and you get the extra burning damage from the toolbelt and static discharge damage, as well as the fire field for might stacking, just all around good rotation if you don’t need other utilities which granted sometimes you do.

I have been play around again. Right now I am trying what Guang said : " . Fireforged Trigger is probably actually better than Rifle Mod now as a result since it enables you to autopilot Flame Blast after every Shrapnel Grenade since the cooldowns match up.!
on dnt forum. A lot easier.
Nevertheless I am starting to think that is impossible to achive the full dps potential in a real dunehon.

In guild teams I don’t really care, what I like to have is a guard.

In lfg-groups I like:
Elementalist (if bad can be ask to play a more supportive role, boonsupport)
Guardian (people can be bad and still offer something…)
Warrior (place some support under them and they can close to afk every fight)

What I don’t like:
Thief (too many can’t dodge at all…)
Ranger (same + no pet control)

Something in the middle:
Engineer (if confident to use engi most aren’t too bad)
Mesmer (illusions and stuff will absorb hits)
Necromancer (hard to die with, can rez)

I have low expectations.

Rozbuska.5263:

Foefaller.1082:

I don’t have a definitive list. Rather, I often bring certain profession depending on what’s in the dungeon path I’m doing.

For example, I bring my Engineer for CoE path 1, because with grenade kit and a turret or two, I can single-handily clear golems from the console after the golem boss, letting the other four players activate the console at once, bypassing the majority of that fight. My Engi is also my main, with ascended armor and the highest agony resist of all my characters, so she’s also the profession I play high level fractals as well.

Too complicated. Stay just under platform and spam bomb 1

Any time I think of using bomb kit just to spam 1, the image of how silly it looks completely derails me and I just end up doing something else. (note that’s it’s just spamming 1 that bothers me, no problem with quick swaps for skills 2-5)

I guess you can say it’s something of a mental block :P, and if I can accomplish the same thing with the same profession, with only a few extra things to do, while staying well within what I’m capable of as a player, why not?

If I wanted simple, I would have brought a warrior instead.

How curious that this is a dungeon thread yet nobody treats fractals as dungeons, when they are the highest level of dungeon mechanics.

lv50 fractals are a whole different ball game, because survival due to the damage output of bosses and mobs, and the total health of bosses, is far greater than any of the usual speed run explorable paths.

So the one trick pony that is an ele in a fractal becomes a liability because suddenly a melee autoattack from a mob, and especially bosses such as Mossman and Archdiviner will one shot him.

In fractals the heavy armor classes have a distinct advantage, and so do the strong AoE classes. Fire Shaman will eliminate ranger, necromancer, and mesmer from the list — all these classes have absolutely horrendous aoe capacity that makes them a liability against the elementals who need to be burst down immediately.

In all the other lv50 fractals classes with high effective HP (which is not necessarily the same thing as a large health pool, but effective mitigation mechanisms such as strong burst and sustained healing, reflection, high access to protection, etc) have the best capability to sustain DPS.

Try Archdiviner melee on a ranger or lightning hammer ele. Try dredge on those as well. Not very fun when a mob takes out over half your health in one swing and is immune to conditions which would otherwise allow you to survive.

For lv50 fractal the list easily favors guardian and warrior with a single ele, preferably a staff ele, as the only light armor class in the group. Thief is essential for speeding up the dredge and harpy fractals, and their survival comes from being able to chain pistol whip if necessary against opponents with hardhitting autoattacks.

Take a good look at paths such as the Aetherblade in TA, it also favors high effective HP classes that withstand offensive pressure better.

Engineer and Ranger might do well in regular dungeon speed runs, but they are no better than a mesmer or anyone that isn’t a Warrior/Guardian/Thief with the token ele in a fractal or aetherpath run.

It’s also no coincidence that the reason necro isn’t well loved for dungeons either is because alongside ranger their power based AoE skills are absolute trash, and this game is all about bursting AoE.

lordhelmos.7623:

Here’s my list and reasons:

TOP TIER

1.) The Guardian
-Heart of the party, most reliable reflects and defensive options without sacrificing damage (reflects, aegis, party healing). Some fights with high projectile counts (i.e. Bloomhunger, Harpy Fractal, Grawl Shaman Frac 50) are downright nightmares without a guard.

2.) The Warrior (DPS)
Highest melee dps in the game, insane buffs with indestructible banners that skyrockets the party killing power. Also able to party save and boost the group damage to 20-25+ might with Warbanner, the best PvE elite in the game.

3.) The Elementalist (Support)
-Single best support class in the game. Most reliable might stacker, high area damage, conjure frost bow is the best area aoe and structure destroyer in the game. Can grant more boons and auras than any other class.

MID TIER:

4.) The Ranger (DPS)
Very high sword melee dps. Best water field in the game. Decent damage boosters with frost spirit and spotter. Spirit of Nature is very strong in PvE. Overshadowed by warrior due to indestructable banners and the ranger’s reliance on pets. Pet insufficiency is mitigated somewhat if using drakes, which do decent damage, blast on fields, and have strong F2s. Drakes also redirect enemy damage to themselves due to high toughness in comparison to the rest of the group, some bosses can be drake tanked.

5.) Mesmer (Support)
Good portal skipping tricks, strong damage when traited right + reflects and support. Also has the second best PvE elite next to warbanner (Timewarp). Substitute support for the ele, which is better in all realms of support and damage.

6.) Thief (Damage/Support)
Good sword damage but high risk. Stealth allows for mass skipping and sometimes entire segment skipping (such as CM). Limited tricks outside of basic weapon skills but best blast finisher in the game (cluster bomb). Overshadowed by the mesmer and the ele. Both are better choices.

LOW TIER:

7.) Engineer (Damage/Support)
Good area damage with grenades and limited stealth. Can stack decent vul but has semi-dependency on conditions (most of which are overshadowed by the guardian’s 100% burning uptime). Good blast finishers, limited usefulness of utility skills and kits. No good PvE Elites, grenades have a low rate of fire and lose damage because of how long they are airborne.

NECROMANCER:

8.) Necromancer (No PvE Use)
By far the weakest class. Heavily condition dependent. Minions are useless in PvE with lack of good targeting and focus fire options. What useful power skills that they have (Lich, Wells) are on high CDs. No good autoattack options that hit multiple targets. Terrible aoe outside of wells. Needs serious PvE help.

Engi Ele and especially Thief all out melee damage a warrior, and by a lot. Ranger even hits harder, though I see why you put warrior above it.

Zenith.7301:

How curious that this is a dungeon thread yet nobody treats fractals as dungeons, when they are the highest level of dungeon mechanics.

lv50 fractals are a whole different ball game, because survival due to the damage output of bosses and mobs, and the total health of bosses, is far greater than any of the usual speed run explorable paths.

So the one trick pony that is an ele in a fractal becomes a liability because suddenly a melee autoattack from a mob, and especially bosses such as Mossman and Archdiviner will one shot him.

In fractals the heavy armor classes have a distinct advantage, and so do the strong AoE classes. Fire Shaman will eliminate ranger, necromancer, and mesmer from the list — all these classes have absolutely horrendous aoe capacity that makes them a liability against the elementals who need to be burst down immediately.

In all the other lv50 fractals classes with high effective HP (which is not necessarily the same thing as a large health pool, but effective mitigation mechanisms such as strong burst and sustained healing, reflection, high access to protection, etc) have the best capability to sustain DPS.

Try Archdiviner melee on a ranger or lightning hammer ele. Try dredge on those as well. Not very fun when a mob takes out over half your health in one swing and is immune to conditions which would otherwise allow you to survive.

For lv50 fractal the list easily favors guardian and warrior with a single ele, preferably a staff ele, as the only light armor class in the group. Thief is essential for speeding up the dredge and harpy fractals, and their survival comes from being able to chain pistol whip if necessary against opponents with hardhitting autoattacks.

Take a good look at paths such as the Aetherblade in TA, it also favors high effective HP classes that withstand offensive pressure better.

Engineer and Ranger might do well in regular dungeon speed runs, but they are no better than a mesmer or anyone that isn’t a Warrior/Guardian/Thief with the token ele in a fractal or aetherpath run.

It’s also no coincidence that the reason necro isn’t well loved for dungeons either is because alongside ranger their power based AoE skills are absolute trash, and this game is all about bursting AoE.

I main ele and use him in frac 50 all the time, d/f. Guardian and Warrior are easier to use IN ALL CONTENT, not just fractals. While I get what youre saying, youre wrong on some things. Necro for fire shaman is actually fine, great even, with wells and piercing life blast. Mesmer is also great for that fight for 3 reflects to stop the fire eles. Warrior is actually the class you dont need at all in that fight. Ele does fine with off hand focus, destroy projectiles and then icebow. Warrior and Guardian are for the “not that good” players. You can be great at the game and use a War or Guard, thats fine, but they are targetted for the less.. skilled people. A good example is like Virtua Fighter, they list which characters are for beginners and which are for experts, doesnt mean one is better than the other, just expert classes tend to have a higher skill cap, and can do more at that level. im ranting now, gnite

I run fractals with my ele and do fine, thanks.

lordhelmos.7623:

Here’s my list and reasons:

TOP TIER

1.) The Guardian
-Heart of the party, most reliable reflects and defensive options without sacrificing damage (reflects, aegis, party healing). Some fights with high projectile counts (i.e. Bloomhunger, Harpy Fractal, Grawl Shaman Frac 50) are downright nightmares without a guard.

2.) The Warrior (DPS)
Highest melee dps in the game, insane buffs with indestructible banners that skyrockets the party killing power. Also able to party save and boost the group damage to 20-25+ might with Warbanner, the best PvE elite in the game.

3.) The Elementalist (Support)
-Single best support class in the game. Most reliable might stacker, high area damage, conjure frost bow is the best area aoe and structure destroyer in the game. Can grant more boons and auras than any other class.

MID TIER:

4.) The Ranger (DPS)
Very high sword melee dps. Best water field in the game. Decent damage boosters with frost spirit and spotter. Spirit of Nature is very strong in PvE. Overshadowed by warrior due to indestructable banners and the ranger’s reliance on pets. Pet insufficiency is mitigated somewhat if using drakes, which do decent damage, blast on fields, and have strong F2s. Drakes also redirect enemy damage to themselves due to high toughness in comparison to the rest of the group, some bosses can be drake tanked.

5.) Mesmer (Support)
Good portal skipping tricks, strong damage when traited right + reflects and support. Also has the second best PvE elite next to warbanner (Timewarp). Substitute support for the ele, which is better in all realms of support and damage.

6.) Thief (Damage/Support)
Good sword damage but high risk. Stealth allows for mass skipping and sometimes entire segment skipping (such as CM). Limited tricks outside of basic weapon skills but best blast finisher in the game (cluster bomb). Overshadowed by the mesmer and the ele. Both are better choices.

LOW TIER:

7.) Engineer (Damage/Support)
Good area damage with grenades and limited stealth. Can stack decent vul but has semi-dependency on conditions (most of which are overshadowed by the guardian’s 100% burning uptime). Good blast finishers, limited usefulness of utility skills and kits. No good PvE Elites, grenades have a low rate of fire and lose damage because of how long they are airborne.

NECROMANCER:

8.) Necromancer (No PvE Use)
By far the weakest class. Heavily condition dependent. Minions are useless in PvE with lack of good targeting and focus fire options. What useful power skills that they have (Lich, Wells) are on high CDs. No good autoattack options that hit multiple targets. Terrible aoe outside of wells. Needs serious PvE help.

This is wrong in so many levels, no offence

1. Necro

Sue me.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

This is wrong in so many levels, no offence

How can a personnal tier list being wrong ?

Zenith.7301:

How curious that this is a dungeon thread yet nobody treats fractals as dungeons, when they are the highest level of dungeon mechanics

Because people like me don’t run fractals.
I don’t like agony mecanics (“hello vertical stuff progression”).

Fractals are the same as dungeons. Main difference is it requires you to swap utilities a bit more and use cc. Ele is pretty much the best class for all PvE even with no fgs.

based on dps and utility

guardian
engineer
ele
warrior
mesmer
thief
ranger

not sure where you got thief has highest personal dps.
also bomb kit highest dps autoattack in game.

Zenith.7301:

How curious that this is a dungeon thread yet nobody treats fractals as dungeons, when they are the highest level of dungeon mechanics.

lv50 fractals are a whole different ball game, because survival due to the damage output of bosses and mobs, and the total health of bosses, is far greater than any of the usual speed run explorable paths.

So the one trick pony that is an ele in a fractal becomes a liability because suddenly a melee autoattack from a mob, and especially bosses such as Mossman and Archdiviner will one shot him.

In fractals the heavy armor classes have a distinct advantage, and so do the strong AoE classes. Fire Shaman will eliminate ranger, necromancer, and mesmer from the list — all these classes have absolutely horrendous aoe capacity that makes them a liability against the elementals who need to be burst down immediately.

In all the other lv50 fractals classes with high effective HP (which is not necessarily the same thing as a large health pool, but effective mitigation mechanisms such as strong burst and sustained healing, reflection, high access to protection, etc) have the best capability to sustain DPS.

Try Archdiviner melee on a ranger or lightning hammer ele. Try dredge on those as well. Not very fun when a mob takes out over half your health in one swing and is immune to conditions which would otherwise allow you to survive.

For lv50 fractal the list easily favors guardian and warrior with a single ele, preferably a staff ele, as the only light armor class in the group. Thief is essential for speeding up the dredge and harpy fractals, and their survival comes from being able to chain pistol whip if necessary against opponents with hardhitting autoattacks.

Take a good look at paths such as the Aetherblade in TA, it also favors high effective HP classes that withstand offensive pressure better.

Engineer and Ranger might do well in regular dungeon speed runs, but they are no better than a mesmer or anyone that isn’t a Warrior/Guardian/Thief with the token ele in a fractal or aetherpath run.

It’s also no coincidence that the reason necro isn’t well loved for dungeons either is because alongside ranger their power based AoE skills are absolute trash, and this game is all about bursting AoE.

Because Fractals aren’t dungeons, they’re fractals. It’s a completely different system and not the same at all.

Dungeon I choose a path to do and it leads me through a path killing multiple bosses along the way and when I finish I’m done.

Fractals I do 3 completely random and different mini paths of again random stuff.

Fun in it’s own right, but it’s not the same thing at all. One is showing up to a known course you’ve practiced and perfected, and one is showing up and knowing what obstacles may be there, but not sure which ones or where they will arrive. It really changes the approach.

And… Ele is pretty kitten kitten in them as well with their plethora of tools. And, in general I completely disagree with your opinions on fractals. If you have a good guard they can make up for a few mistakes that are made and other than that you just do your best to really learn things and not get touched. I’m a big fan of one mesmer in fractals for instance, lots of portal tricks to make use of as well as their other utility. Engi can cover a lot of areas so is an amazing utility addition in a group that may not be perfectly made composition wise.

sorrychief.2563:

based on dps and utility

guardian
engineer
ele
warrior
mesmer
thief
ranger

not sure where you got thief has highest personal dps.
also bomb kit highest dps autoattack in game.

bomb kit doesnt have the highest dps auto attack, the meta engi pve build doesnt even use bomb kit.

purecontact.1680:

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

This is wrong in so many levels, no offence

How can a personnal tier list being wrong ?

Zenith.7301:

How curious that this is a dungeon thread yet nobody treats fractals as dungeons, when they are the highest level of dungeon mechanics

Because people like me don’t run fractals.
I don’t like agony mecanics (“hello vertical stuff progression”).

his personal list can be wrong because of what he wrote. 1-8 doesnt matter, his reasoning however does. Warrior highest melee damage? lol

Azure.8670:

sorrychief.2563:

based on dps and utility

guardian
engineer
ele
warrior
mesmer
thief
ranger

not sure where you got thief has highest personal dps.
also bomb kit highest dps autoattack in game.

bomb kit doesnt have the highest dps auto attack, the meta engi pve build doesnt even use bomb kit.

That build what you called meta is sux then.

Rozbuska.5263:

Azure.8670:

sorrychief.2563:

based on dps and utility

guardian
engineer
ele
warrior
mesmer
thief
ranger

not sure where you got thief has highest personal dps.
also bomb kit highest dps autoattack in game.

bomb kit doesnt have the highest dps auto attack, the meta engi pve build doesnt even use bomb kit.

That build what you called meta is sux then.

Bomb kit can have highest dps auto attack and still not be useful. Engi meta full rotation is higher dps than bomb auto.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Rozbuska.5263:

Azure.8670:

sorrychief.2563:

based on dps and utility

guardian
engineer
ele
warrior
mesmer
thief
ranger

not sure where you got thief has highest personal dps.
also bomb kit highest dps autoattack in game.

bomb kit doesnt have the highest dps auto attack, the meta engi pve build doesnt even use bomb kit.

That build what you called meta is sux then.

Bomb kit can have highest dps auto attack and still not be useful. Engi meta full rotation is higher dps than bomb auto.

Assuming you can hit max vuln though isn’t bomb kit going to weigh in higher than grenades though? Or is it just the auto and not the full rotation that’s higher damage?

Rozbuska.5263:

Azure.8670:

sorrychief.2563:

based on dps and utility

guardian
engineer
ele
warrior
mesmer
thief
ranger

not sure where you got thief has highest personal dps.
also bomb kit highest dps autoattack in game.

bomb kit doesnt have the highest dps auto attack, the meta engi pve build doesnt even use bomb kit.

That build what you called meta is sux then.

Warrior axe auto hits harder. Not sure if highest but higher for sure.

The meta build is decided on maximizing both personal and team dps. It has math as arguments. “ouch my pinkie hurts pressing 1” and “i wanna roleplay as bombmeister cuz i am special snowflake” are not considered valid reasons.
As for being on topic..
1. ele
2. doesn’t matter. I tend to favour engi/necro/ranger though after 1-2 eles are covered. I also try to avoid warrior/guardian/thief. too much faceroll in this game.

Classes I enjoy to take in dungeons or Fractals.

1. Ranger → because it’s very fun to evade
2. Warrior → because it’s fun to bash things repeatedly
3. Guardian → because it’s fun to block attacks
4. Necro* → because it’s… Ok this is not fun

*just kidding, I don’t have one

Based on my experience with the classes and what they bring to a group:

1. Ele – might, fury, blinds, cc (deep freeze), projectile defense (swirling winds)
2. Engi – might, vuln, stealth, projectile defense
3. Guard – aegis, projectile defense, condi cleanse, stability
4. Ranger – spotter, frost spirit
5. Thief – stealth, blinds, defiance strip, projectile defense
6. Warrior – banners
7. Mesmer – projectile defense, portal, time warp
8. Juvenile Brown Bear – pet revive is op, better tank than cleric guardian, adorable
9. Heal-o-Tron – revives even when full dead, moral support
10. Necro – idk some blinds, condi cleanse I guess

Jerus.4350:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Rozbuska.5263:

Azure.8670:

sorrychief.2563:

based on dps and utility

guardian
engineer
ele
warrior
mesmer
thief
ranger

not sure where you got thief has highest personal dps.
also bomb kit highest dps autoattack in game.

bomb kit doesnt have the highest dps auto attack, the meta engi pve build doesnt even use bomb kit.

That build what you called meta is sux then.

Bomb kit can have highest dps auto attack and still not be useful. Engi meta full rotation is higher dps than bomb auto.

Assuming you can hit max vuln though isn’t bomb kit going to weigh in higher than grenades though? Or is it just the auto and not the full rotation that’s higher damage?

Ofc its about autoattack. bombs hit for 9k and you can never compare it to grenade AA. But ofc you dont use grenades for AA but for shrapnel and freeze but thats another story:-)

Kaldrys.1978:

Based on my experience with the classes and what they bring to a group:

1. Ele – might, fury, blinds, cc (deep freeze), projectile defense (swirling winds)
2. Engi – might, vuln, stealth, projectile defense
3. Guard – aegis, projectile defense, condi cleanse, stability
4. Ranger – spotter, frost spirit
5. Thief – stealth, blinds, defiance strip, projectile defense
6. Warrior – banners
7. Mesmer – projectile defense, portal, time warp
8. Juvenile Brown Bear – pet revive is op, better tank than cleric guardian, adorable
9. Heal-o-Tron – revives even when full dead, moral support
10. Necro – idk some blinds, condi cleanse I guess

Ha, made me giggle

Although signet of undeath better revival than SnR O.o

TIL that you determine which engineer build is best by comparing the auto attacks you shouldn’t use from different kits.

rofl, there are meta builds for pve? don’t let these DNT guys play for you.

also I assumed bomb kit was for might stacking when you are soloing a dungeon or group has no ele/warrior and swap it out for something else before going in combat.

1. Guardian
2. Warrior
3. Ele.

None else need apply.

(I main ranger, and even the meta build, assuming it’s being used, is only a marginal improvement to the party. If you’re not doing an organized speed clear, bringing anything EXCEPT the three I listed is just asking for people to fail.)

Rozbuska.5263:

Jerus.4350:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Rozbuska.5263:

Azure.8670:

sorrychief.2563:

based on dps and utility

guardian
engineer
ele
warrior
mesmer
thief
ranger

not sure where you got thief has highest personal dps.
also bomb kit highest dps autoattack in game.

bomb kit doesnt have the highest dps auto attack, the meta engi pve build doesnt even use bomb kit.

That build what you called meta is sux then.

Bomb kit can have highest dps auto attack and still not be useful. Engi meta full rotation is higher dps than bomb auto.

Assuming you can hit max vuln though isn’t bomb kit going to weigh in higher than grenades though? Or is it just the auto and not the full rotation that’s higher damage?

Ofc its about autoattack. bombs hit for 9k and you can never compare it to grenade AA. But ofc you dont use grenades for AA but for shrapnel and freeze but thats another story:-)

The thing is, the current meta build for Engineers does not sit idly for autoattack at all, but is in a constant state of swapping kits for the hardest hitting/most useful 2-5 skills of their kits and rifle, so taking bombs for its autoattack dps, even if it is one of the highest in the game, is unnecessary, even if there was a spot in the build for it.

Now, that being said, if you’re not doing orginized speed clears, you would be perfectly fine with a Bomb Kit engi, and I doubt anyone pugging with you would complain (unless something goes wrong and they start blaming you for their own shortcommings, of course)

sorrychief.2563:

rofl, there are meta builds for pve? don’t let these DNT guys play for you.

Why wouldn’t there be? When a specific job can be done in multiple ways there is always going to be an optimal way and a suboptimal.

Foefaller.1082:

Rozbuska.5263:

Jerus.4350:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Rozbuska.5263:

Azure.8670:

sorrychief.2563:

based on dps and utility

guardian
engineer
ele
warrior
mesmer
thief
ranger

not sure where you got thief has highest personal dps.
also bomb kit highest dps autoattack in game.

bomb kit doesnt have the highest dps auto attack, the meta engi pve build doesnt even use bomb kit.

That build what you called meta is sux then.

Bomb kit can have highest dps auto attack and still not be useful. Engi meta full rotation is higher dps than bomb auto.

Assuming you can hit max vuln though isn’t bomb kit going to weigh in higher than grenades though? Or is it just the auto and not the full rotation that’s higher damage?

Ofc its about autoattack. bombs hit for 9k and you can never compare it to grenade AA. But ofc you dont use grenades for AA but for shrapnel and freeze but thats another story:-)

The thing is, the current meta build for Engineers does not sit idly for autoattack at all, but is in a constant state of swapping kits for the hardest hitting/most useful 2-5 skills of their kits and rifle, so taking bombs for its autoattack dps, even if it is one of the highest in the game, is unnecessary, even if there was a spot in the build for it.

Now, that being said, if you’re not doing orginized speed clears, you would be perfectly fine with a Bomb Kit engi, and I doubt anyone pugging with you would complain (unless something goes wrong and they start blaming you for their own shortcommings, of course)

I use rifle + bomb kit + tool kit + mines rotation with SD and its quite easy rotation with like 14k dps. Ofc I dont use bomb 1 whole time its like 3x AA before rotation is ready to repeat. Meta build what you talking about is good dont get me wrong (I hope you talk about what ppl wrong call “DnT” build) but dps isnt top and rotation is more complicated than its neccessary with lot of space to mistakes like bad acid bomb interupt or blast dont do double dmg while in corner ect. And yes there are skills what has more dps than autoattack on single kit but kit swap take some time too and you simply loosing there.