Guild Wars 2

nagymbear.5280:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

clearly you can’t Be reasoned with , be happy watching your melee world burn.

So if someone says ranger is a free kill that will shake the whole meta to its core so hard that people will only play ranged classes now? Sounds interesting.

no, im trying to stop the term Free kill thats it , nothing is ever a Free kill and that alone gives it a Negative light and new players to this class won’t learn to play it , they will ask for the best build and people will Suggest Zerker(because that is the best stat for over all PvE)
then they won’t learn to use the classes other Abilities because of said free kill , some might look past it , some might get really annoyed with it and give up on the class Beacuse other people Support the Free kill term, it is Negative to host a class in this light .

Meta has nothing to do with it , but everyone knows the meta Combat type is slowly changing and becoming the Melee is not the Be all and end all anymore.

I didn’t see anyone mention how ungodly easy it is to kill a ranger… Mainly the focus being WvW of course. If you cannot find a mechanic besides dodge to not get hit by a ranger, close the gap and kill them then I feel terribly sorry for you. The only time I EVER have trouble against a LB ranger is if my leaps, speed boosts, stealths, etc. are on cool down and/or my endurance is too low to dodge. Heck you can stun them, interrupt them, daze them… Give me a break. Not OP imo… LB rangers are snipers. They are very effective in doing so like they should be. But get up on them and CC them and they drop like flies.

It is worth mentioning they can have some defensive CDs but also keep in mind that upon being downed, prior to spike, they have the worst rate than any other class to get back up (underwater they are they best b/c their pet can heal them non-stop).

So when it comes to the LB ranger’s Rapid Fire being too OP, keep in mind that this is simply one burst mechanic, ONE out of a plethora of others that does would it should do and has the ability to be countered.
If you want OP, try a thief’s stealth that can heal them, cleanse condis, grant might, reduce all dmg by 50% for duration of stealth, oh and cannot be seen! Maybe nerf that since it’s soooo OP.
Welcome to MMORPG PvP/XWvWPvP

RF is essentially former eviscerate spam.

It was too hard for players to counter evisc, why should they be expected to counter a long range burst that can be used every 8 seconds, whether or not they have filled a meter?

no it was too hard to dodge , Two Warroir Machanics two f1’s in a Row , first misses , swap activate second, there is no Compair to this.

the reason people couldn’t dodge Evis was because they were drained by the time the warroir did his Second f1 in a Row.

ps Zerk vs Zerk who will win , Range or Melee .
well obviously Range because that is also a Weakness for playing FULL Melee!

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

no it was too hard to dodge , Two Warroir Machanics two f1’s in a Row , first misses , swap activate second, there is no Compair to this.

the reason people couldn’t dodge Evis was because they were drained by the time the warroir did his Second f1 in a Row.

ps Zerk vs Zerk who will win , Range or Melee .
well obviously Range because that is also a Weakness for playing FULL Melee!

I agree with the bolded part, but not the ital part.

while I was talking about evisc spam without desperation swapping, you are correct on the point you made there.

As for zerk/zerk range vs, melee, I made no mention as to type of gear. People had problems with all kinds of burst spam. My comparison was based on the fact that warriors, who had a high-damage skill that could be used either up close with a huge tell or far away with a huge tell, also had at least 7 seconds before they could use it again, give or take the time it took to build adrenaline. Yet, it was considered faceroll easy by many.

Rangers have a similar situation now, – the added minor caveat of building the bar first. Why should it -not- be considered faceroll easy?

Press button for massive damage > use utils, get in combat, build a meter, put your trait functionality on cooldown for massive damage?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

RF is essentially former eviscerate spam.

It was too hard for players to counter evisc, why should they be expected to counter a long range burst that can be used every 8 seconds, whether or not they have filled a meter?

No, adrenaline and burst skills were normalized by putting the skill on it’s full cooldown regardless of whether it lands or was missed, just like every other burst mechanic in the game.

You’re comparing apples to oranges with extreme bias, and imo people are wasting their time debating balance with you.

jcbroe.4329:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

RF is essentially former eviscerate spam.

It was too hard for players to counter evisc, why should they be expected to counter a long range burst that can be used every 8 seconds, whether or not they have filled a meter?

No, adrenaline and burst skills were normalized by putting the skill on it’s full cooldown regardless of whether it lands or was missed, just like every other burst mechanic in the game.

You’re comparing apples to oranges with extreme bias, and imo people are wasting their time debating balance with you.

you seem to be misunderstanding the simplicity of my argument.

Nothing has changed for skill cooldown, regarding warriors. The difficulty of landing the skill has simply been increased a couple of times. My argument is merely “if evading a close range spike (tells notwithstanding) every 7 seconds was too difficult for players, why would it be expected that a long range spike every 8 seconds would be completely tolerable?”

I am not placing focus on mechanics here. obviously the skills both have very different prerequisites, but the majority of complaints focused on evisc was how quickly and how heavily it hit, with very little concern given to how much time it took to fill the adren bar.

well if thats the case , I’d rather not Lower the Skill Floor anymore so anyone and everyone can Avoid a Burst when ever they wanted , if that happened No one Would ever Die.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

well if thats the case , I’d rather not Lower the Skill Floor anymore so anyone and everyone can Avoid a Burst when ever they wanted , if that happened No one Would ever Die.

This is the only point I am making.

The problem is why it had to start with Rangers.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

well if thats the case , I’d rather not Lower the Skill Floor anymore so anyone and everyone can Avoid a Burst when ever they wanted , if that happened No one Would ever Die.

This is the only point I am making.

The problem is why it had to start with Rangers.

i did say Anyone and Everyone , its back to what other people have said its apple and oranges

Fighting a Ranged Style is 100% different to that of a Melee type, your weakness is staying at Range, Ours is being in Combat, If set up to play that one Build style.

Yin and Yan you can’t do much about a Core Weakness against Close range Melee.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

well if thats the case , I’d rather not Lower the Skill Floor anymore so anyone and everyone can Avoid a Burst when ever they wanted , if that happened No one Would ever Die.

This is the only point I am making.

The problem is why it had to start with Rangers.

i did say Anyone and Everyone , its back to what other people have said its apple and oranges

Fighting a Ranged Style is 100% different to that of a Melee type, your weakness is staying at Range, Ours is being in Combat, If set up to play that one Build style.

Yin and Yan you can’t do much about a Core Weakness against Close range Melee.

I understand precisely what you are saying. I cannot shake the feeling that being perched on a difficult ledge to access, doling out heavy damage at a moderately frequent rate, and being able to push back/ stealth yourself when anybody approaches seems to be accepted as requiring more tactical prowess than actively being in someone’s face and managing rotations to be moderately effective. Not even the same amount of tactical prowess, mind you.

Don’t take it personally (not saying you are, but for anyone who is, do not.) My argument is more about a class being stripped of its core mechanic due to it being effective, while another class has its core mechanic bolstered to being pretty effective, and having the groups that comment on these changes loudly decry one but resent decrying the other.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

jcbroe.4329:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

RF is essentially former eviscerate spam.

It was too hard for players to counter evisc, why should they be expected to counter a long range burst that can be used every 8 seconds, whether or not they have filled a meter?

No, adrenaline and burst skills were normalized by putting the skill on it’s full cooldown regardless of whether it lands or was missed, just like every other burst mechanic in the game.

You’re comparing apples to oranges with extreme bias, and imo people are wasting their time debating balance with you.

you seem to be misunderstanding the simplicity of my argument.

Nothing has changed for skill cooldown, regarding warriors. The difficulty of landing the skill has simply been increased a couple of times. My argument is merely “if evading a close range spike (tells notwithstanding) every 7 seconds was too difficult for players, why would it be expected that a long range spike every 8 seconds would be completely tolerable?”

I am not placing focus on mechanics here. obviously the skills both have very different prerequisites, but the majority of complaints focused on evisc was how quickly and how heavily it hit, with very little concern given to how much time it took to fill the adren bar.

That’s actually entirely fair then, I misinterpreted as “well one burst got nerfed so they should all get nerfed” like I’m starting to expect to see from these arguments.

As far as warriors alone go, I can understand why the adrenaline change was made to some degree, but the hindsight of it exists where the time it takes to build adrenaline now may inadvertently put the skill on a much longer cooldown (from use to use) in practice, because to some degree, with burst skills also having their own cooldown, it’s like getting punished MORE for missing, which doesn’t inherently seem right since missing on it’s own should be the punishment, and the cooldowns themselves honestly could have just been played around with imo.

As far as Rapid Fire goes, I think it’s just honestly too soon to tell. People are experiencing an extreme knee jerk reaction and the meta hasn’t had time to settle for the skill to be logically analyzed and discussed between most people. Personally I’d be curious to see, in terms of matching up with the announced class philosophies, how close Mesmer (the second best ranged damage in the game) matches to the new Ranger longbow, because if the ranger longbow is outperforming it, I would be curious to know how much it is outperforming the next closest option by.

Other than that, it’s just extremely clear the the community is having a major knee jerk meltdown, and I don’t think many people have truly let themselves try to adapt. Like for instance, I know it’s an isolated game mode comparatively, but there is only 1 glass ranger (or ANY ranger for that matter) on top teams in the PvP scene right now across all of the top teams. Is it because the build hasn’t be experimented with, or is it because it still isn’t viable at a top tier level?

People need to just calm down and give the state of the current game a chance. We all know that ANet has a long balancing cycle anyhow, so all of the knee jerk complaints are probably just being written off as too soon to tell at the moment anyhow.

sminkiottone.6972:

Why not learn how to counter it before asking for nerfs ? I still have to die against LB ranger and I fought many of them in the past 2 days.

you are probably running a bunker build and even tho you can survive them, you can’t kill anythign either…

Prince.7198:

sminkiottone.6972:

Why not learn how to counter it before asking for nerfs ? I still have to die against LB ranger and I fought many of them in the past 2 days.

you are probably running a bunker build and even tho you can survive them, you can’t kill anythign either…

Who says a bunker build can’t kill ? do you even play the game ?

sminkiottone.6972:

Prince.7198:

sminkiottone.6972:

Why not learn how to counter it before asking for nerfs ? I still have to die against LB ranger and I fought many of them in the past 2 days.

you are probably running a bunker build and even tho you can survive them, you can’t kill anythign either…

Who says a bunker build can’t kill ? do you even play the game ?

the fact that he assumed anything about your build from you saying “learn to counter it” should give you insight into your question.

Looks like his shot in the dark hit though. zing.

At any rate, here’s the generally implied argument.

I don’t want to have to learn to counter it. No class should be able to significantly inconvenience me from any range by pressing a button. Rangers should not be able to faceroll their keyboard from a distance every 8 seconds-

etc.

Honestly though, I’m not too incapacitated by the recent patch, but it is becoming very apparent that a power shift was desired by the community rather than power balance, otherwise there would be more people realizing this is even ‘easier’ than managing rotations at melee range for that sweet, sweet eviscerate people loved to hate.

while I agree that rangers sorely needed a buff, this one doesn’t seem to force Rangers to think.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

sminkiottone.6972:

Prince.7198:

sminkiottone.6972:

Why not learn how to counter it before asking for nerfs ? I still have to die against LB ranger and I fought many of them in the past 2 days.

you are probably running a bunker build and even tho you can survive them, you can’t kill anythign either…

Who says a bunker build can’t kill ? do you even play the game ?

the fact that he assumed anything about your build from you saying “learn to counter it” should give you insight into your question.

Looks like his shot in the dark hit though. zing.

At any rate, here’s the generally implied argument.

I don’t want to have to learn to counter it. No class should be able to significantly inconvenience me from any range by pressing a button. Rangers should not be able to faceroll their keyboard from a distance every 8 seconds-

etc.

Honestly though, I’m not too incapacitated by the recent patch, but it is becoming very apparent that a power shift was desired by the community rather than power balance, otherwise there would be more people realizing this is even ‘easier’ than managing rotations at melee range for that sweet, sweet eviscerate people loved to hate.

while I agree that rangers sorely needed a buff, this one doesn’t seem to force Rangers to think.

ok then so i shouldn’t learn to counter Melee by using My CC’s/KB correctly then.
this problem is Solely for those Full glass Cliff huggers.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

sminkiottone.6972:

Prince.7198:

sminkiottone.6972:

Why not learn how to counter it before asking for nerfs ? I still have to die against LB ranger and I fought many of them in the past 2 days.

you are probably running a bunker build and even tho you can survive them, you can’t kill anythign either…

Who says a bunker build can’t kill ? do you even play the game ?

the fact that he assumed anything about your build from you saying “learn to counter it” should give you insight into your question.

Looks like his shot in the dark hit though. zing.

At any rate, here’s the generally implied argument.

I don’t want to have to learn to counter it. No class should be able to significantly inconvenience me from any range by pressing a button. Rangers should not be able to faceroll their keyboard from a distance every 8 seconds-

etc.

Honestly though, I’m not too incapacitated by the recent patch, but it is becoming very apparent that a power shift was desired by the community rather than power balance, otherwise there would be more people realizing this is even ‘easier’ than managing rotations at melee range for that sweet, sweet eviscerate people loved to hate.

while I agree that rangers sorely needed a buff, this one doesn’t seem to force Rangers to think.

ok then so i shouldn’t learn to counter Melee by using My CC’s/KB correctly then.
this problem is Solely for those Full glass Cliff huggers.

At what point does “melee guy close (opt: near edge), press 4; if 4 is on its meager 15 sec cooldown press 0” require significant tactical prowess?

No rudeness meant, honest question. It appears skill is praised heavily over “facerolling” nowadays.

Also: ‘full glass cliff huggers’ are still Rangers; they have not metamorphosed into some entity that in some way makes this not a Ranger prob.

PS: Let’s not forget the “my pushback didn’t work, press 3 and run”

Of course, this is entirely a PVP argument. I’m glad they’re viable in PVE. But, that being said, I never thought they weren’t viable in PVE, so that has no real bearing on me at this time.

So what if they are still Rangers, people are banding all Ranger builds that use Rf , into the same Band as a Full Glass Cannon , using hills and Terrain.

From now on The Quote Cliff huggers , are what is getting roamers killed, if you are not on T4 or higher.

you won’t get the chance to do this Cheap Tactic.

Oh ya blame to stealth too 3secs OOW im so scared of it, Deal with it.
All Medium Classes have some form of Obtaining Stealth and Ranger/Engi have the Shortest Duration that can’t and can not be boosted.

The Problem Is Entirely Full glass Rangers Pewing targets from afar ontop ether cap points or Poor Roamers, that are also Running Full Zerk or as close to full zerker.

The fact Rf is faster is Mute, the point of Dps on the Lb being better than pre patch is not bad or op.

its the Sum of Opposing factors in Pvp that effect one build type , WvW that Zerk rangers with Eagle eye and RtW with a Lb picking off weak ill prepaired targets.

Rf or the Lb overall isn’t the problem , its the Zerker stats combined with the Rangers Ability to Stack Vunrability.

if changing the Minors to marksmanship can Reduce the effectiveness of the combined skills , i’ll be more than happy for anet to rework the Marksman Minor Traits so they don’t give as much of a boost during the first few attacks.

it would Reduce the spike in the first few attacks, but make more Effective Traits for the duration of the fight.

Reasons why i don’t want Rf Changed again.

1. We need that skill as real Burst.
2. it don’t Track as well , so i see this as good for thiefs.
3. It does Require some sort of Set up since now it is easier to miss (if the rangr is not using Rtw)
4. these issuse are Caused by one Set up of build type combined with the effective Rtw.

it will be Difficult for Anet to make a choice without Changing Rf again and we need that Burst , changing the hits even reducing the damage isn’t a option.

the only way it can be changed in a Mild way is to change the effectiveness of its combined Elements and the main culprate is usally the first few attacks caused by the minor traits in marksmanship.

Rf after the first few attacks , are 10 less Vun stacks and is not a Critical hit from a Traits.

so it will be hard for them to change it , but i can see a clear way , changing the Minors in Marksman ship also effects too many builds, new minor traits would have to be better or more Widely Viable across many builds.

in the end , for anet its easier to buff other skills , like the Reflects ect rather than Changing the LB skills again.

people say some reflects have too long of a Cooldown but can trait for them, maybe all they need is a few seconds shaved off these skills.

a note also rangers don’t have any Access to passive damage like damage, drop mines, drop caltrops on dodge as a Adept trait, and is proberly what we are lacking also.

all of a rangers damage can be Negated, through the use of these Block/reflect skills so Reducing the cooldown too much wouldn’t be fair ether.

im in favour of a Marksmanship Minor traits change, if it Reduces the effectiveness of the opening attacks from Glass Zerk rangers , and replace them with something a little more Build Effective.

Minor = Dual arrow , shoot two arrowinstead of one During your First auto attack/ Ferocius strikes you and your pets first auto attack deals 20% more critcal damage.
Major Minor = Pets Prowess moved to here, + Pets Crits apply Vunrability
Grand Minor ( Flowing winds ect) = Increases Range of Ranged weapons by 300 yards as Standard.

or keep grand minor as 100% chance to Crit after gaining Stealth.
and remorseless is changed to next 3 attacks after stealth apply 2 Vunrability each.
(this would mean we could use Barrage to stack 6 vunrability on 5 targets balancing out the rangers Long term game play with a stronger Barrage, rather than a Big opening attack)

it reduces over all opening Damage , without effecting RF’s base + 10 vunrabilty damage, Pets will be needed in combat to improve on said damage, also frees up a Adept Skirmishing slot.
and the Added 300 yards will make builds more Variable and might Encourage the use of Peicing arrows.

if the LBs base range is changed to 1200 with no Overshoot , the combined range of Eagle eye and flowing winds , will make the range 2000 yards with no overshoot.

Traiting for Grand minor flowing winds will also Allow Rangers to maintain there No1 postion of being the best at Ranged weapon use.

Don’t hate me on this these are all ideas , without having to Nurf RF and well needed changes for Marksmanship as it is Kinda lack Luster in Long Term fights.

A fair point that should be raised is that prior to this patch rangers had ZERO truly noob friendly builds that was event remotely seen as “viable” by the community.
You may think condi bunker is easy, but infact it is not THAT easy. you are still required to evade at the right time, heal prior to taking too much damage and as always, manage the darn pet.
Some say trapper is easy, but trapper has many weaknesses that, if left to their own, will ensure your death.
Same goes for a PVT setup too, it has some weaknesses due to class design as therefor it requires you to stay alert.

Pre patch, there was no real “viable” build that allowed anyone to play the class with some level of effectiveness. At the same time, anybody can roll a hambow, a D/P or S/D thief, a PU blackwater mesmer, a turret engi, minionmancer or even a healway guard.
Some say spirits was viable, however since the build first “emerged”, the whole ranger community knew how to counter it, we told you how to (in order to avoid too many nerfs), yet it took players 3-4 months to realize, or rather to listen to the ranger community that supplied the counters almost immediately.

Once again the ranger community tells you how to counter and shut down the new ranger meta build, why do we do this? because we know that if fnot, we will get nerfed into oblivion. Why is this a problem? because recent power creep has placed the ranger quite far down in comparison to others when looking at a cross mode PoV. Rangers cannot afford to get nerfed, because most of their buffs only ever let them catch up, and 2-3 patches later some power creep is introduced and rangers will again be falling ever so slightly behind.

Prysin.8542:

A fair point that should be raised is that prior to this patch rangers had ZERO truly noob friendly builds that was event remotely seen as “viable” by the community.
You may think condi bunker is easy, but infact it is not THAT easy. you are still required to evade at the right time, heal prior to taking too much damage and as always, manage the darn pet.
Some say trapper is easy, but trapper has many weaknesses that, if left to their own, will ensure your death.
Same goes for a PVT setup too, it has some weaknesses due to class design as therefor it requires you to stay alert.

Pre patch, there was no real “viable” build that allowed anyone to play the class with some level of effectiveness. At the same time, anybody can roll a hambow, a D/P or S/D thief, a PU blackwater mesmer, a turret engi, minionmancer or even a healway guard.
Some say spirits was viable, however since the build first “emerged”, the whole ranger community knew how to counter it, we told you how to (in order to avoid too many nerfs), yet it took players 3-4 months to realize, or rather to listen to the ranger community that supplied the counters almost immediately.

Once again the ranger community tells you how to counter and shut down the new ranger meta build, why do we do this? because we know that if fnot, we will get nerfed into oblivion. Why is this a problem? because recent power creep has placed the ranger quite far down in comparison to others when looking at a cross mode PoV. Rangers cannot afford to get nerfed, because most of their buffs only ever let them catch up, and 2-3 patches later some power creep is introduced and rangers will again be falling ever so slightly behind.

So how do you ‘counter or shut down this’? Let me describe how a fight on my zerker mesmer goes against the new ‘noob-friendly build’. He does his RF pewpew, dealing some 3-4k damage before I can react since each arrow has 0,25sec cast time and there is now telegraoh or precast. I interrupt or dodge, he pops his 6 seconds of invulnerability continuing with 2k autoattacks. And by the time the invulnerability is over he uses RF again, only that this time I am most likely to be out of cooldowns and eat the 10k-12k damage. You can indeed call that noob-friendly: he only has to use two skills apart from the autoattack. Add to this the fact that he can also knockback and stealth.

RF right now actually deals considerably more damage over its duration than Backstab, which is much more risky and difficult to land. Also. there is a reason why thieves don’t have access to invulnerabilty. Imagine a zerker thief could just go invulnerable for 6 seconds-

Tissitra.4153:

Prysin.8542:

A fair point that should be raised is that prior to this patch rangers had ZERO truly noob friendly builds that was event remotely seen as “viable” by the community.
You may think condi bunker is easy, but infact it is not THAT easy. you are still required to evade at the right time, heal prior to taking too much damage and as always, manage the darn pet.
Some say trapper is easy, but trapper has many weaknesses that, if left to their own, will ensure your death.
Same goes for a PVT setup too, it has some weaknesses due to class design as therefor it requires you to stay alert.

Pre patch, there was no real “viable” build that allowed anyone to play the class with some level of effectiveness. At the same time, anybody can roll a hambow, a D/P or S/D thief, a PU blackwater mesmer, a turret engi, minionmancer or even a healway guard.
Some say spirits was viable, however since the build first “emerged”, the whole ranger community knew how to counter it, we told you how to (in order to avoid too many nerfs), yet it took players 3-4 months to realize, or rather to listen to the ranger community that supplied the counters almost immediately.

Once again the ranger community tells you how to counter and shut down the new ranger meta build, why do we do this? because we know that if fnot, we will get nerfed into oblivion. Why is this a problem? because recent power creep has placed the ranger quite far down in comparison to others when looking at a cross mode PoV. Rangers cannot afford to get nerfed, because most of their buffs only ever let them catch up, and 2-3 patches later some power creep is introduced and rangers will again be falling ever so slightly behind.

So how do you ‘counter or shut down this’? Let me describe how a fight on my zerker mesmer goes against the new ‘noob-friendly build’. He does his RF pewpew, dealing some 3-4k damage before I can react since each arrow has 0,25sec cast time and there is now telegraoh or precast. I interrupt or dodge, he pops his 6 seconds of invulnerability continuing with 2k autoattacks. And by the time the invulnerability is over he uses RF again, only that this time I am most likely to be out of cooldowns and eat the 10k-12k damage. You can indeed call that noob-friendly: he only has to use two skills apart from the autoattack. Add to this the fact that he can also knockback and stealth.

RF right now actually deals considerably more damage over its duration than Backstab, which is much more risky and difficult to land. Also. there is a reason why thieves don’t have access to invulnerabilty. Imagine a zerker thief could just go invulnerable for 6 seconds-

You play mesmer? You should grab a pen and paper and take some notes while watching this video then. It’s very basic, so don’t worry about comprehension problems, but I think you will learn a lot from it.

Also comparing ranger to thief is stupid. Of course they don’t have invulnerability, because they have much more access to stealth and moblity. Classes are seperate classes for a reason.

warriorjrd.8695:

Tissitra.4153:

Prysin.8542:

A fair point that should be raised is that prior to this patch rangers had ZERO truly noob friendly builds that was event remotely seen as “viable” by the community.
You may think condi bunker is easy, but infact it is not THAT easy. you are still required to evade at the right time, heal prior to taking too much damage and as always, manage the darn pet.
Some say trapper is easy, but trapper has many weaknesses that, if left to their own, will ensure your death.
Same goes for a PVT setup too, it has some weaknesses due to class design as therefor it requires you to stay alert.

Pre patch, there was no real “viable” build that allowed anyone to play the class with some level of effectiveness. At the same time, anybody can roll a hambow, a D/P or S/D thief, a PU blackwater mesmer, a turret engi, minionmancer or even a healway guard.
Some say spirits was viable, however since the build first “emerged”, the whole ranger community knew how to counter it, we told you how to (in order to avoid too many nerfs), yet it took players 3-4 months to realize, or rather to listen to the ranger community that supplied the counters almost immediately.

Once again the ranger community tells you how to counter and shut down the new ranger meta build, why do we do this? because we know that if fnot, we will get nerfed into oblivion. Why is this a problem? because recent power creep has placed the ranger quite far down in comparison to others when looking at a cross mode PoV. Rangers cannot afford to get nerfed, because most of their buffs only ever let them catch up, and 2-3 patches later some power creep is introduced and rangers will again be falling ever so slightly behind.

So how do you ‘counter or shut down this’? Let me describe how a fight on my zerker mesmer goes against the new ‘noob-friendly build’. He does his RF pewpew, dealing some 3-4k damage before I can react since each arrow has 0,25sec cast time and there is now telegraoh or precast. I interrupt or dodge, he pops his 6 seconds of invulnerability continuing with 2k autoattacks. And by the time the invulnerability is over he uses RF again, only that this time I am most likely to be out of cooldowns and eat the 10k-12k damage. You can indeed call that noob-friendly: he only has to use two skills apart from the autoattack. Add to this the fact that he can also knockback and stealth.

RF right now actually deals considerably more damage over its duration than Backstab, which is much more risky and difficult to land. Also. there is a reason why thieves don’t have access to invulnerabilty. Imagine a zerker thief could just go invulnerable for 6 seconds-

You play mesmer? You should grab a pen and paper and take some notes while watching this video then. It’s very basic, so don’t worry about comprehension problems, but I think you will learn a lot from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXsE5TMN1-M

Also comparing ranger to thief is stupid. Of course they don’t have invulnerability, because they have much more access to stealth and moblity. Classes are seperate classes for a reason.

So your answer is to change my whole build: change weapon to focus, invest heavily into traits to reflect. With moderate success, if I might add looking at your video.

So what you’re saying is adapting to a new threat is unreasonable and you shouldn’t have to shift your playstyle?

I don’t know what build you run, but a PU mesmer or a burst mesmer should have little trouble with a glass ranger build.

Perhaps this has already been suggested but what if Rapid Fire damage was heavily dependent upon target range? That way, Long Range Shot stays buffed and LB gets better at close range.

For example, at >1000 range RF does 0.7x current damage. From 500-1000 range RF does 0.9x damage and from 0-500 does 1.3x damage.

Anchoku.8142:

Perhaps this has already been suggested but what if Rapid Fire damage was heavily dependent upon target range? That way, Long Range Shot stays buffed and LB gets better at close range.

For example, at >1000 range RF does 0.7x current damage. From 500-1000 range RF does 0.9x damage and from 0-500 does 1.3x damage.

interesting concept, but it breaks even the horrible logic we already got on the LB….

If firing quickly and unaccurately does more damage at close range, then why shouldnt a well aimed shot do so?

Rapid Fire and its short cool down seems to be the sticking point in the discussion because it stacks damage too quickly at very long range. Take some of its punch out at long range and give it a bit more at short range, like a shotgun. That will give opponents a better chance at closing the gap if they cannot reflect or dodge the whole distance while also increasing LB damage at short range when a weapon swap is available.

An alternative might be to add additional cast time based upon distance to the target. Something like 0.001s x distance so 1500 range → 1.5 seconds pre-cast. It would not affect damage or an ambush/sniper shot but would commit the player to something more easily interrupted at long range.

Anchoku.8142:

Rapid Fire and its short cool down seems to be the sticking point in the discussion because it stacks damage too quickly at very long range. Take some of its punch out at long range and give it a bit more at short range, like a shotgun. That will give opponents a better chance at closing the gap if they cannot reflect or dodge the whole distance while also increasing LB damage at short range when a weapon swap is available.

An alternative might be to add additional cast time based upon distance to the target. Something like 0.001s x distance so 1500 range -> 1.5 seconds pre-cast. It would not affect damage or an ambush/sniper shot but would commit the player to something more easily interrupted at long range.

this is all I want.

If I eat a RF at close range I deserve it or was outplayed, and it would cut down on the “perch-and-press-2” that is starting to happen.

I honestly don’t understand how volley has been in the game for 2 years and has never once been complained about, but RF gets changed to act the exact same and only deals 15% more damage, which makes power Rangers useful for the first time in 2 years, and everyone loses their [censored]. Something dropping the coefficient down to 3.5 would solve.

But instead of this, now we want to propose RF having a damage scale based on range that actually runs opposite to the one used on LRS?

Atherakhia.4086:

So what you’re saying is adapting to a new threat is unreasonable and you shouldn’t have to shift your playstyle?

I don’t know what build you run, but a PU mesmer or a burst mesmer should have little trouble with a glass ranger build.

Well I was asking for counterplay, not a counterbuild. The answer can’t be ‘LB is fine, you just have to play the counterbuild’. Also, you can see in the above video that even specifically building to counter the RF spam does not get you that far. And what about necros who have a grand total of zero reflects and guardians and thieves, who have one skill each, on a 40s and 90s cooldown respectively?

But actually, this discussion is probably pointless. There is no way they will leave it in the current state. I am guessing they decided that potentially overbuffing it first and then toning it back down in coming patches would be OK since rangers did not have much luck in the past updates.

I think making it deal MORE damage at closer range is very counter intuitive, given that this is a long range weapon. It should be LESS damage at close range, say -10% for each 300 units the target is closer. This would fit in well with positioning and kiting being the key mechanics of rangers. Also, there should be a small precast (say 0,5 sec) with a telegraph – currently you eat up to 5k damage even if you react immidiately.

Atherakhia.4086:

I honestly don’t understand how volley has been in the game for 2 years and has never once been complained about, but RF gets changed to act the exact same and only deals 15% more damage, which makes power Rangers useful for the first time in 2 years, and everyone loses their [censored]. Something dropping the coefficient down to 3.5 would solve.

But instead of this, now we want to propose RF having a damage scale based on range that actually runs opposite to the one used on LRS?

because anyone anyone except for that one warrior that manages to 1vx with longbow and predator using rifle is a sitting duck.

RF being faster, dealing more damage, at 300 more range than volley is not “the same”, also. unless I missed something significant.

Does counterplay exist for volley? Does counterplay exist for any channeled skill?

An argument could be made that the counterplay/telegraph is you realizing you’ve been shot more than once every .9 seconds and you need to dodge.

Short of making the arrows tracer rounds with longer tails that were flourescent green, I’m not sure what else we could ask for.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Atherakhia.4086:

I honestly don’t understand how volley has been in the game for 2 years and has never once been complained about, but RF gets changed to act the exact same and only deals 15% more damage, which makes power Rangers useful for the first time in 2 years, and everyone loses their [censored]. Something dropping the coefficient down to 3.5 would solve.

But instead of this, now we want to propose RF having a damage scale based on range that actually runs opposite to the one used on LRS?

because anyone using rifle is a sitting duck.

RF being faster, dealing more damage, at 300 more range than volley is not “the same”, also. unless I missed something significant.

The ranger traited for those 300 yards. It comes as a trade off for the ability to pierce with their shots or grant precision to the group.

Rifle rounds don’t travel as slow as bow shots, do they? A rifle doesn’t need to trait for RtW to hit side stepping people at max range. Unless you mean volley shoots slower? It shoots half as many shots at twice the damage. I mean if you want to make RF shoot 5 shots at .75 coefficient each instead of 10 shots at .375 each, I’m cool with that.

I also have no idea why a Ranger would be any less of a sitting duck than the Warrior. That 300 yards honestly is the difference between a flying duck and a sitting duck?

Atherakhia.4086:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Atherakhia.4086:

I honestly don’t understand how volley has been in the game for 2 years and has never once been complained about, but RF gets changed to act the exact same and only deals 15% more damage, which makes power Rangers useful for the first time in 2 years, and everyone loses their [censored]. Something dropping the coefficient down to 3.5 would solve.

But instead of this, now we want to propose RF having a damage scale based on range that actually runs opposite to the one used on LRS?

because anyone using rifle is a sitting duck.

RF being faster, dealing more damage, at 300 more range than volley is not “the same”, also. unless I missed something significant.

The ranger traited for those 300 yards. It comes as a trade off for the ability to pierce with their shots or grant precision to the group.

Rifle rounds don’t travel as slow as bow shots, do they? A rifle doesn’t need to trait for RtW to hit side stepping people at max range. Unless you mean volley shoots slower? It shoots half as many shots at twice the damage. I mean if you want to make RF shoot 5 shots at .75 coefficient each instead of 10 shots at .375 each, I’m cool with that.

I also have no idea why a Ranger would be any less of a sitting duck than the Warrior. That 300 yards honestly is the difference between a flying duck and a sitting duck?

concede on the second point. That was something significant I missed.

I’d argue that 300 can make the difference between an eagle and a sitting duck though, yes.

Why is it that people plainly forget what a Profession is all about, and all they see is Numbers, I only could stomach reading through the first several replies about how “OP” Rapid Fire is before I started to dry heave so please excuse me if anyone already said this…

A Ranger is a RANGED class primarily so it is a no-brainer that their skills are infact RANGED, people complaining about how RF hits hard like a Backstab from 1200m (1500m traited.) shouldn’t even be mentioned. There are SO many ways to Counter RF it’s laughable, but then again the vast majority of people complaining don’t want to put in any effort to think of ways to Counter it, RF is dependent on LoS so obviously putting something between you and the Ranger is key, I mean every class has the ability to get around being RF’d all people have to do is stop Mashing their keys and put some actual thought into it..

Tissitra.4153:

Atherakhia.4086:

So what you’re saying is adapting to a new threat is unreasonable and you shouldn’t have to shift your playstyle?

I don’t know what build you run, but a PU mesmer or a burst mesmer should have little trouble with a glass ranger build.

Well I was asking for counterplay, not a counterbuild. The answer can’t be ‘LB is fine, you just have to play the counterbuild’.

seriously? you have to counter build to beat condition necros, thieves, warriors… literally change your build to beat these classes. how is this different?

Most mesmers have no problem fighting longbow because they can easily body block and have more access to reflects and protection than just about anybody.

If you dont take condi clears, youre gonna have a hard time against a necro.
If you dont take stun breaks, youre gonna have a hard time against a warrior.
If you dont stack armor or defensive cooldowns, youre gonna have a hard time against a thief.
If you dont take gap closers and reflects, youre gonna have a hard time against a ranger.

Its that freakin’ simple. And all the complaints about “reflect / blink / distortion / warden / curtain / feedback / mirror / body block / LoS / terrain” (and thats just mesmers!) has a longer cooldown than rapid fire so its no good" … man, my stun breaker isnt up every time im out of endurance to dodge a hammer. my immunity is only up for one backstab. if i blow my large condi clear on a massive bleed stack, what will i use against signet of spite?

the only people who are getting stomped repeatedly by longbow are those who refuse to give it the same respect they give to necromancers, warriors, and thieves when picking out their skillset. and maybe necros, but someone needs to give those guys a hard time because other than hammer warriors no one else was.

Raven.9603:

Tissitra.4153:

Atherakhia.4086:

So what you’re saying is adapting to a new threat is unreasonable and you shouldn’t have to shift your playstyle?

I don’t know what build you run, but a PU mesmer or a burst mesmer should have little trouble with a glass ranger build.

Well I was asking for counterplay, not a counterbuild. The answer can’t be ‘LB is fine, you just have to play the counterbuild’.

seriously? you have to counter build to beat condition necros, thieves, warriors… literally change your build to beat these classes. how is this different?

Most mesmers have no problem fighting longbow because they can easily body block and have more access to reflects and protection than just about anybody.

If you dont take condi clears, youre gonna have a hard time against a necro.
If you dont take stun breaks, youre gonna have a hard time against a warrior.
If you dont stack armor or defensive cooldowns, youre gonna have a hard time against a thief.
If you dont take gap closers and reflects, youre gonna have a hard time against a ranger.

Its that freakin’ simple. And all the complaints about “reflect / blink / distortion / warden / curtain / feedback / mirror / body block / LoS / terrain” (and thats just mesmers!) has a longer cooldown than rapid fire so its no good" … man, my stun breaker isnt up every time im out of endurance to dodge a hammer. my immunity is only up for one backstab. if i blow my large condi clear on a massive bleed stack, what will i use against signet of spite?

the only people who are getting stomped repeatedly by longbow are those who refuse to give it the same respect they give to necromancers, warriors, and thieves when picking out their skillset. and maybe necros, but someone needs to give those guys a hard time because other than hammer warriors no one else was.

Reflection is not a chore mechanic the way a condi cleanso or a stunbreak is. There is no class without access to condi cleanses or stunbreacks. Necros, thieves and guardians however have no or very limited access to reflect.

I think I will stop arguing at this point. Just count the number of threads on this forum about RF. Do you really think it will stay the way it is?

Tissitra.4153:

Reflection is not a chore mechanic the way a condi cleanso or a stunbreak is. There is no class without access to condi cleanses or stunbreacks. Necros, thieves and guardians however have no or very limited access to reflect.

I think I will stop arguing at this point. Just count the number of threads on this forum about RF. Do you really think it will stay the way it is?

reflect OR gap closer. thieves do just fine against LB rangers, as do guardians. necros are really the only class struggling because theres not much they can do to adapt. some engies struggle because they are so used to only using bomb kit and toolkit, and you cant really make a ranged class stand in your bombs. other types of engies do just fine.

condi cleansing is not a core mechanic. you have to trait or utility skill into it or pick a weapon that provides it. some classes, like thieves and engies (and warriors pre-CI) have very, very poor access to condi clears. just like some classes have very, very poor access to stability (necros, engies, thieves, mesmers), stun breaks (necros).

Do i think it will stay the way it is? I have no idea. There is no logic at all to Anet balancing. Look at how long Evis lasted, how long hambow lasted, PU still hasnt really been nerfed, how long p/d thieves lasted, how long celestial ele’s have lasted, how long perplexity runes have lasted, how long dhuumfire lasted, how long larcenous strike lasted…

The amount of threads dont matter. None of our opinions matter. All that matters is E-Sport dreams and gem sales.

Tissitra.4153:

Reflection is not a chore mechanic the way a condi cleanso or a stunbreak is.

Those arent core mechanics either..

Do you know what core mechanics are?

There is no class without access to condi cleanses or stunbreacks. Necros, thieves and guardians however have no or very limited access to reflect.

Correct.
Those classes counter ranger in there own way.
Thieves burst the burst build, guardians bunker and burst.
Necro is really the only class that I have had problems with ranger on.

I think I will stop arguing at this point. Just count the number of threads on this forum about RF. Do you really think it will stay the way it is?

They will balance based on Tpvp.

If it is over represented and OP in Tpvp, it will be nerfed much sooner than 6 months
(spirit ranger anyone?)

Secondly,
If you dont want to change your build to counter ranger’s..fine.
But you lose the right to complain.
You have the tools to render there range useless, but you dont want to take the tools because you don’t think you should have to?

That’s like saying " O look, I have a hammer. Guess I’ll use my teeth to put this table together "

Tissitra.4153:

Raven.9603:

Tissitra.4153:

Atherakhia.4086:

So what you’re saying is adapting to a new threat is unreasonable and you shouldn’t have to shift your playstyle?

I don’t know what build you run, but a PU mesmer or a burst mesmer should have little trouble with a glass ranger build.

Well I was asking for counterplay, not a counterbuild. The answer can’t be ‘LB is fine, you just have to play the counterbuild’.

seriously? you have to counter build to beat condition necros, thieves, warriors… literally change your build to beat these classes. how is this different?

Most mesmers have no problem fighting longbow because they can easily body block and have more access to reflects and protection than just about anybody.

If you dont take condi clears, youre gonna have a hard time against a necro.
If you dont take stun breaks, youre gonna have a hard time against a warrior.
If you dont stack armor or defensive cooldowns, youre gonna have a hard time against a thief.
If you dont take gap closers and reflects, youre gonna have a hard time against a ranger.

Its that freakin’ simple. And all the complaints about “reflect / blink / distortion / warden / curtain / feedback / mirror / body block / LoS / terrain” (and thats just mesmers!) has a longer cooldown than rapid fire so its no good" … man, my stun breaker isnt up every time im out of endurance to dodge a hammer. my immunity is only up for one backstab. if i blow my large condi clear on a massive bleed stack, what will i use against signet of spite?

the only people who are getting stomped repeatedly by longbow are those who refuse to give it the same respect they give to necromancers, warriors, and thieves when picking out their skillset. and maybe necros, but someone needs to give those guys a hard time because other than hammer warriors no one else was.

Reflection is not a chore mechanic the way a condi cleanso or a stunbreak is. There is no class without access to condi cleanses or stunbreacks. Necros, thieves and guardians however have no or very limited access to reflect.

I think I will stop arguing at this point. Just count the number of threads on this forum about RF. Do you really think it will stay the way it is?

Engi has pretty lousy access to condi removal and stun breaks. Not every profession has equal access to everything in the game. And you are playing a mesmer who has plenty of access to reflects, stealth, LoS blocking through clones, CC, interupts, heck you have a reflect on your heal with a 15 second cool down.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Tissitra.4153:

Raven.9603:

Tissitra.4153:

Atherakhia.4086:

So what you’re saying is adapting to a new threat is unreasonable and you shouldn’t have to shift your playstyle?

I don’t know what build you run, but a PU mesmer or a burst mesmer should have little trouble with a glass ranger build.

Well I was asking for counterplay, not a counterbuild. The answer can’t be ‘LB is fine, you just have to play the counterbuild’.

seriously? you have to counter build to beat condition necros, thieves, warriors… literally change your build to beat these classes. how is this different?

Most mesmers have no problem fighting longbow because they can easily body block and have more access to reflects and protection than just about anybody.

If you dont take condi clears, youre gonna have a hard time against a necro.
If you dont take stun breaks, youre gonna have a hard time against a warrior.
If you dont stack armor or defensive cooldowns, youre gonna have a hard time against a thief.
If you dont take gap closers and reflects, youre gonna have a hard time against a ranger.

Its that freakin’ simple. And all the complaints about “reflect / blink / distortion / warden / curtain / feedback / mirror / body block / LoS / terrain” (and thats just mesmers!) has a longer cooldown than rapid fire so its no good" … man, my stun breaker isnt up every time im out of endurance to dodge a hammer. my immunity is only up for one backstab. if i blow my large condi clear on a massive bleed stack, what will i use against signet of spite?

the only people who are getting stomped repeatedly by longbow are those who refuse to give it the same respect they give to necromancers, warriors, and thieves when picking out their skillset. and maybe necros, but someone needs to give those guys a hard time because other than hammer warriors no one else was.

Reflection is not a chore mechanic the way a condi cleanso or a stunbreak is. There is no class without access to condi cleanses or stunbreacks. Necros, thieves and guardians however have no or very limited access to reflect.

I think I will stop arguing at this point. Just count the number of threads on this forum about RF. Do you really think it will stay the way it is?

Engi has pretty lousy access to condi removal and stun breaks. Not every profession has equal access to everything in the game. And you are playing a mesmer who has plenty of access to reflects, stealth, LoS blocking through clones, CC, interupts, heck you have a reflect on your heal with a 15 second cool down.

Number of skills that break stun in the game: 43, no profession has access to less than 4 different stunbreaks.

Number of skills that remove conditions: 55. Even engies have access to at least 6 different condi removal skills. There are altogether 23 different traits which remove conditions.

Total number of skills that reflect projectiles: 16. Necros have no reflects, guardians and thieves each only one.

Tissitra.4153:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Tissitra.4153:

Raven.9603:

Tissitra.4153:

Atherakhia.4086:

So what you’re saying is adapting to a new threat is unreasonable and you shouldn’t have to shift your playstyle?

I don’t know what build you run, but a PU mesmer or a burst mesmer should have little trouble with a glass ranger build.

Well I was asking for counterplay, not a counterbuild. The answer can’t be ‘LB is fine, you just have to play the counterbuild’.

seriously? you have to counter build to beat condition necros, thieves, warriors… literally change your build to beat these classes. how is this different?

Most mesmers have no problem fighting longbow because they can easily body block and have more access to reflects and protection than just about anybody.

If you dont take condi clears, youre gonna have a hard time against a necro.
If you dont take stun breaks, youre gonna have a hard time against a warrior.
If you dont stack armor or defensive cooldowns, youre gonna have a hard time against a thief.
If you dont take gap closers and reflects, youre gonna have a hard time against a ranger.

Its that freakin’ simple. And all the complaints about “reflect / blink / distortion / warden / curtain / feedback / mirror / body block / LoS / terrain” (and thats just mesmers!) has a longer cooldown than rapid fire so its no good" … man, my stun breaker isnt up every time im out of endurance to dodge a hammer. my immunity is only up for one backstab. if i blow my large condi clear on a massive bleed stack, what will i use against signet of spite?

the only people who are getting stomped repeatedly by longbow are those who refuse to give it the same respect they give to necromancers, warriors, and thieves when picking out their skillset. and maybe necros, but someone needs to give those guys a hard time because other than hammer warriors no one else was.

Reflection is not a chore mechanic the way a condi cleanso or a stunbreak is. There is no class without access to condi cleanses or stunbreacks. Necros, thieves and guardians however have no or very limited access to reflect.

I think I will stop arguing at this point. Just count the number of threads on this forum about RF. Do you really think it will stay the way it is?

Engi has pretty lousy access to condi removal and stun breaks. Not every profession has equal access to everything in the game. And you are playing a mesmer who has plenty of access to reflects, stealth, LoS blocking through clones, CC, interupts, heck you have a reflect on your heal with a 15 second cool down.

Number of skills that break stun in the game: 43, no profession has access to less than 4 different stunbreaks.

Number of skills that remove conditions: 55. Even engies have access to at least 6 different condi removal skills. There are altogether 23 different traits which remove conditions.

Total number of skills that reflect projectiles: 16. Necros have no reflects, guardians and thieves each only one.

I mean God forbid you can’t reflect all of the ranger’s attacks. I mean even if he hits you once how are you supposed to win? Going by your great logic I should be able to have a condi cleanse that keeps up with condi application, and a heal skill that can out heal incoming dps. You’re never going to find a build or class that can perfectly counter something, so stop acting stupid. Would you take a thief or a mesmer to go up against a Hammer/mace warrior?

Not all classes can counter things equally, that’s where classes strengths and weaknesses come into play. Rangers din’t have proper condi removal for the longest time, but we didn’t call for the blanket nerf of condi specs. Our pets couldn’t keep up with a target for the longest time (some still have issues), we didn’t call for a blanket nerf on class mobility so our pet could attack.

Adapt your playstyle before you call for nerfs. Not everything is going to be perfect against everything else.

warriorjrd.8695:

Tissitra.4153:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Tissitra.4153:

Raven.9603:

Tissitra.4153:

Atherakhia.4086:

So what you’re saying is adapting to a new threat is unreasonable and you shouldn’t have to shift your playstyle?

I don’t know what build you run, but a PU mesmer or a burst mesmer should have little trouble with a glass ranger build.

Well I was asking for counterplay, not a counterbuild. The answer can’t be ‘LB is fine, you just have to play the counterbuild’.

seriously? you have to counter build to beat condition necros, thieves, warriors… literally change your build to beat these classes. how is this different?

Most mesmers have no problem fighting longbow because they can easily body block and have more access to reflects and protection than just about anybody.

If you dont take condi clears, youre gonna have a hard time against a necro.
If you dont take stun breaks, youre gonna have a hard time against a warrior.
If you dont stack armor or defensive cooldowns, youre gonna have a hard time against a thief.
If you dont take gap closers and reflects, youre gonna have a hard time against a ranger.

Its that freakin’ simple. And all the complaints about “reflect / blink / distortion / warden / curtain / feedback / mirror / body block / LoS / terrain” (and thats just mesmers!) has a longer cooldown than rapid fire so its no good" … man, my stun breaker isnt up every time im out of endurance to dodge a hammer. my immunity is only up for one backstab. if i blow my large condi clear on a massive bleed stack, what will i use against signet of spite?

the only people who are getting stomped repeatedly by longbow are those who refuse to give it the same respect they give to necromancers, warriors, and thieves when picking out their skillset. and maybe necros, but someone needs to give those guys a hard time because other than hammer warriors no one else was.

Reflection is not a chore mechanic the way a condi cleanso or a stunbreak is. There is no class without access to condi cleanses or stunbreacks. Necros, thieves and guardians however have no or very limited access to reflect.

I think I will stop arguing at this point. Just count the number of threads on this forum about RF. Do you really think it will stay the way it is?

Engi has pretty lousy access to condi removal and stun breaks. Not every profession has equal access to everything in the game. And you are playing a mesmer who has plenty of access to reflects, stealth, LoS blocking through clones, CC, interupts, heck you have a reflect on your heal with a 15 second cool down.

Number of skills that break stun in the game: 43, no profession has access to less than 4 different stunbreaks.

Number of skills that remove conditions: 55. Even engies have access to at least 6 different condi removal skills. There are altogether 23 different traits which remove conditions.

Total number of skills that reflect projectiles: 16. Necros have no reflects, guardians and thieves each only one.

I mean God forbid you can’t reflect all of the ranger’s attacks. I mean even if he hits you once how are you supposed to win? Going by your great logic I should be able to have a condi cleanse that keeps up with condi application, and a heal skill that can out heal incoming dps. You’re never going to find a build or class that can perfectly counter something, so stop acting stupid. Would you take a thief or a mesmer to go up against a Hammer/mace warrior?

Not all classes can counter things equally, that’s where classes strengths and weaknesses come into play. Rangers din’t have proper condi removal for the longest time, but we didn’t call for the blanket nerf of condi specs. Our pets couldn’t keep up with a target for the longest time (some still have issues), we didn’t call for a blanket nerf on class mobility so our pet could attack.

Adapt your playstyle before you call for nerfs. Not everything is going to be perfect against everything else.

Simply making the point that reflection is not a comparable mechanic to either stunbreak or condition removal, as was claimed by several people above.

Tissitra.4153:

warriorjrd.8695:

Tissitra.4153:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Tissitra.4153:

Raven.9603:

Tissitra.4153:

Atherakhia.4086:

So what you’re saying is adapting to a new threat is unreasonable and you shouldn’t have to shift your playstyle?

I don’t know what build you run, but a PU mesmer or a burst mesmer should have little trouble with a glass ranger build.

Well I was asking for counterplay, not a counterbuild. The answer can’t be ‘LB is fine, you just have to play the counterbuild’.

seriously? you have to counter build to beat condition necros, thieves, warriors… literally change your build to beat these classes. how is this different?

Most mesmers have no problem fighting longbow because they can easily body block and have more access to reflects and protection than just about anybody.

If you dont take condi clears, youre gonna have a hard time against a necro.
If you dont take stun breaks, youre gonna have a hard time against a warrior.
If you dont stack armor or defensive cooldowns, youre gonna have a hard time against a thief.
If you dont take gap closers and reflects, youre gonna have a hard time against a ranger.

Its that freakin’ simple. And all the complaints about “reflect / blink / distortion / warden / curtain / feedback / mirror / body block / LoS / terrain” (and thats just mesmers!) has a longer cooldown than rapid fire so its no good" … man, my stun breaker isnt up every time im out of endurance to dodge a hammer. my immunity is only up for one backstab. if i blow my large condi clear on a massive bleed stack, what will i use against signet of spite?

the only people who are getting stomped repeatedly by longbow are those who refuse to give it the same respect they give to necromancers, warriors, and thieves when picking out their skillset. and maybe necros, but someone needs to give those guys a hard time because other than hammer warriors no one else was.

Reflection is not a chore mechanic the way a condi cleanso or a stunbreak is. There is no class without access to condi cleanses or stunbreacks. Necros, thieves and guardians however have no or very limited access to reflect.

I think I will stop arguing at this point. Just count the number of threads on this forum about RF. Do you really think it will stay the way it is?

Engi has pretty lousy access to condi removal and stun breaks. Not every profession has equal access to everything in the game. And you are playing a mesmer who has plenty of access to reflects, stealth, LoS blocking through clones, CC, interupts, heck you have a reflect on your heal with a 15 second cool down.

Number of skills that break stun in the game: 43, no profession has access to less than 4 different stunbreaks.

Number of skills that remove conditions: 55. Even engies have access to at least 6 different condi removal skills. There are altogether 23 different traits which remove conditions.

Total number of skills that reflect projectiles: 16. Necros have no reflects, guardians and thieves each only one.

I mean God forbid you can’t reflect all of the ranger’s attacks. I mean even if he hits you once how are you supposed to win? Going by your great logic I should be able to have a condi cleanse that keeps up with condi application, and a heal skill that can out heal incoming dps. You’re never going to find a build or class that can perfectly counter something, so stop acting stupid. Would you take a thief or a mesmer to go up against a Hammer/mace warrior?

Not all classes can counter things equally, that’s where classes strengths and weaknesses come into play. Rangers din’t have proper condi removal for the longest time, but we didn’t call for the blanket nerf of condi specs. Our pets couldn’t keep up with a target for the longest time (some still have issues), we didn’t call for a blanket nerf on class mobility so our pet could attack.

Adapt your playstyle before you call for nerfs. Not everything is going to be perfect against everything else.

Simply making the point that reflection is not a comparable mechanic to either stunbreak or condition removal, as was claimed by several people above.

Well not every class has equal access to stability or heals either. Bad argument little mesmer, bad argument.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

jcbroe.4329:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

RF is essentially former eviscerate spam.

It was too hard for players to counter evisc, why should they be expected to counter a long range burst that can be used every 8 seconds, whether or not they have filled a meter?

No, adrenaline and burst skills were normalized by putting the skill on it’s full cooldown regardless of whether it lands or was missed, just like every other burst mechanic in the game.

You’re comparing apples to oranges with extreme bias, and imo people are wasting their time debating balance with you.

you seem to be misunderstanding the simplicity of my argument.

Nothing has changed for skill cooldown, regarding warriors. The difficulty of landing the skill has simply been increased a couple of times. My argument is merely “if evading a close range spike (tells notwithstanding) every 7 seconds was too difficult for players, why would it be expected that a long range spike every 8 seconds would be completely tolerable?”

I am not placing focus on mechanics here. obviously the skills both have very different prerequisites, but the majority of complaints focused on evisc was how quickly and how heavily it hit, with very little concern given to how much time it took to fill the adren bar.

Are you seriously comparing Evicerate with RF? This is hilarious!!

To the guy who plays on Mesmer: How long is your blurred frenzy CD? Traited veil? Do you even trait veil? PU can tank and heal through the damage easy if you play that. Mantras perhaps to interrupt? GS interrupt? Shatter in his face??

I mean, seriously. You make it sound like there is absolutely nothing you can do, completely disregarding the fact that the Ranger himself/herself, if he is making RF numbers that big, has absolutely no defenses in place.

In the case of you playing glkittenter build, Ranger and Mesmer counter each other.

xbutcherx.3861:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

jcbroe.4329:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

RF is essentially former eviscerate spam.

It was too hard for players to counter evisc, why should they be expected to counter a long range burst that can be used every 8 seconds, whether or not they have filled a meter?

No, adrenaline and burst skills were normalized by putting the skill on it’s full cooldown regardless of whether it lands or was missed, just like every other burst mechanic in the game.

You’re comparing apples to oranges with extreme bias, and imo people are wasting their time debating balance with you.

you seem to be misunderstanding the simplicity of my argument.

Nothing has changed for skill cooldown, regarding warriors. The difficulty of landing the skill has simply been increased a couple of times. My argument is merely “if evading a close range spike (tells notwithstanding) every 7 seconds was too difficult for players, why would it be expected that a long range spike every 8 seconds would be completely tolerable?”

I am not placing focus on mechanics here. obviously the skills both have very different prerequisites, but the majority of complaints focused on evisc was how quickly and how heavily it hit, with very little concern given to how much time it took to fill the adren bar.

Are you seriously comparing Evicerate with RF? This is hilarious!!

Why not? Eviscerate was apparently a skill that required little. skill or tactical prowess to hit.

Rapid fire seems to fit that bill.

Eviscerate isn’t a channel. All if it’s damage comes in 1 big spike. If someone starts hitting me with rapid fire from behind I can still dodge the bulk of the damage. A warriors eviscerate/kill shot can take you out before you have a chance to react.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Eviscerate isn’t a channel. All if it’s damage comes in 1 big spike. If someone starts hitting me with rapid fire from behind I can still dodge the bulk of the damage. A warriors eviscerate/kill shot can take you out before you have a chance to react.

While I would love to argue with you about how not being able to react to kill shot is a thing,

Again, my argument is regarding base tactical prowess required to use a skill and the subsequent lowering of Ranger’s skill floor because of individuals perching and merely pressing 2 off cooldown with little risk and high reward, not the actual mechanics of the skill or the raw numbers of the damage. It is effective; that is enough.

Eviscerate required warriors to build a bar before they could use it, and that was considered faceroll easy. My argument is that RF is “faceroll easy.”

Because it is face roll easy to build a bar. I have a warrior that I leveled to 80 in WvW. They are ridiculously easy to play effectively.

High dps at long range is not balanced unless it forces a glassy build that weakens short range damage. Rapid Fire was less objectionable when LB AA was weaker. That did not mean it was not a stupid Easy Button for bear-bow rangers. No one argues that Ranger should not be good with a long bow at long range but not every profession has reflect and not every situation allows players to detect they are being focused by a ranger.

211112311112 is not a winning strategy in PvP but it is stupid easy in WvW where no one can tell where the shots are coming from in a crowd and in PvE where lots of rangers enjoy screwing with group or ally dps by using Point Blank when it is totally unnecessary just because it is off CD.

Long Bow should not be weak but one principle of this game is that higher risk is rewarded by higher dps and combat range is one of the core risk factors because most professions only receive good dps using short range weapons. Spamming auto-attack between RF’s short CD period is just too easy in a lot of situations to deserve a dps boost. Personally, I think it was OP before September but the lower AA damage from Long Range Shot helped decrease dps enough to give more counterplay. Other professions could also use either more personal risk or less dps in their ranged meta builds.