Guild Wars 2

Fay.2357:

vincecontix.1264:

Whether steal is traited is Op or not is a matter of opinion. Though thief in the current meta is an ok class its not top tier. They are far from op they have counters(med guard, engi, necro etc.. They cant really 1v1 a lot of the celestial/bunkerish meta builds.

So to those who want thief steal nerfed suggest some things to compensate it. Some have mention thief is one of the few classes that can wear a zerker amy. Which is not true Med guards, power necro, and even rangers wear zerker Amy. Thief has less options than other classes and has no choice but to run zerker amy.

Honestly, I’m not truly familiar enough with thief to suggest viable alternatives for the myriad traits that affect steal, and that really should be a job for the devs. The important thing is that the message is gotten across that steal shouldn’t be possible to trait into a monster. The traits need to be re-aimed at other areas that could use interesting modifiers instead of just piling it all onto steal.

But then people will just complain about those traits, because thieves are frustrating to fight and that somehow means they’re broken.

It’s how the forums work when it comes to thieves.

1) Complain about something, even though 9 out of 10 times that thing is fine.
2) ANet eventually caves and nerfs that something.
3) Thieves find a new way to be effective using something else.
4) Go back to step 1 to complain about something else.

It doesn’t matter how many times thief is nerfed, players will keep complaining. That isn’t a subjective observation, it’s an objective one that’s been true since the game launched. As of right now, it is a fact.

I’d be excited to see some new traits that replace all the junk that needs to be piled onto steal to make it a useful mechanic (it wouldn’t be such a big deal to have an UP mechanic, except it’s the class mechanic), but it’d only be 6 months until forum QQ had all those traits nerfed anyway, so it’s more of a safe bet to defend the status quo.

evilapprentice.6379:

Fay.2357:

vincecontix.1264:

Whether steal is traited is Op or not is a matter of opinion. Though thief in the current meta is an ok class its not top tier. They are far from op they have counters(med guard, engi, necro etc.. They cant really 1v1 a lot of the celestial/bunkerish meta builds.

So to those who want thief steal nerfed suggest some things to compensate it. Some have mention thief is one of the few classes that can wear a zerker amy. Which is not true Med guards, power necro, and even rangers wear zerker Amy. Thief has less options than other classes and has no choice but to run zerker amy.

Honestly, I’m not truly familiar enough with thief to suggest viable alternatives for the myriad traits that affect steal, and that really should be a job for the devs. The important thing is that the message is gotten across that steal shouldn’t be possible to trait into a monster. The traits need to be re-aimed at other areas that could use interesting modifiers instead of just piling it all onto steal.

But then people will just complain about those traits, because thieves are frustrating to fight and that somehow means they’re broken.

It’s how the forums work when it comes to thieves.

1) Complain about something, even though 9 out of 10 times that thing is fine.
2) ANet eventually caves and nerfs that something.
3) Thieves find a new way to be effective using something else.
4) Go back to step 1 to complain about something else.

It doesn’t matter how many times thief is nerfed, players will keep complaining. That isn’t a subjective observation, it’s an objective one that’s been true since the game launched. As of right now, it is a fact.

I’d be excited to see some new traits that replace all the junk that needs to be piled onto steal to make it a useful mechanic (it wouldn’t be such a big deal to have an UP mechanic, except it’s the class mechanic), but it’d only be 6 months until forum QQ had all those traits nerfed anyway, so it’s more of a safe bet to defend the status quo.

I’m not worried about random people complaining about random things, because people do that no matter what.

I’m also not advocating for a straight nerf. All of the traits that are currently able to boost steal into a ridiculous state need to still have good uses…just on other parts of the thief toolkit than steal. Maybe poison gets applied when actually using the bundle, or things like that. Not nerfs, but changes.

Requiring a Line of Sight would fix much of the QQ. But I don’t understand what you are complaining about? You invest almost all traits into one skill – don’t you think that skill should be good then? If someone predicts it and evade at the right moment (or just a random evade) we just wasted one of our strongest skills on nothing. It is in general a weak skill, but when heavily traited it is strong.

Geiir.7603:

If someone predicts it and evade at the right moment (or just a random evade) we just wasted one of our strongest skills on nothing.

No, missing steal outside of a terrain bug or other type of bug is a l2P issue, and completely the fault of the thief.

Geiir.7603:

Requiring a Line of Sight would fix much of the QQ. But I don’t understand what you are complaining about? You invest almost all traits into one skill - don’t you think that skill should be good then? If someone predicts it and evade at the right moment (or just a random evade) we just wasted one of our strongest skills on nothing. It is in general a weak skill, but when heavily traited it is strong.

Yup your right and steal itself can be counter by dodge, block, and blind.
Also a lot of things the op listed doesn’t even matter like granting swiftness, a tiny bit of healing, one stack of might, fury, vigor. These type of thing kinda happen with all classes on so many builds without even thinking about it.

Every profession has strong aspects that people will complain about, for thief at the moment the target is traits that buff steal which causes steal to do a bunch of small things. Compare the strengths of thief to other professions and thief steal looks tame or on par with things like ele water attunement having AoE 2-3 condi removal and AoE healing 3k every 10 seconds on swap + dodge, or ranger using point blank shot + rapid fire every 12 seconds, or engineer grenade spam applying burning, bleeds, poison/doom every 10 seconds, etc…

There’s a lot that’s strong on each profession. One thing to keep in mind is that the Trickery line is what keeps meta thief builds viable currently. Maybe one day thief will have other options, but if you look across all professions, the 5th trait line is usually heavily invested into with a few exceptions.

Chaith.8256:

Geiir.7603:

If someone predicts it and evade at the right moment (or just a random evade) we just wasted one of our strongest skills on nothing.

No, missing steal outside of a terrain bug or other type of bug is a l2P issue, and completely the fault of the thief.

Did I say otherwise? I am talking about adding more counter play to Steal, which I think isn’t needed…

Sensotix.4106:

Summary of steal when using the current thief build (30 0 10 0 30)

1) 1.244 dmg (usually more)
2) 2 boons stolen (priority on stability)
3) giving these boons to you and nearby allies in a radius of 240
4) grants vigor for 10 seconds
5) grants you and allies in a radius of 360 fury for around 10 sec
6) grants you and allies in a radius of 360 swiftness for around 10 sec (and 1 might stack)
7) heals you for 2.040
8) puts poison on the enemy for 13 seconds
9) dazes the target (which goes through stab because its first priority on boons removed)
10) when using the current backstab build with panic strike it afflicts weakness for 51/4 sec on the enemy
11) recharges all skills of one type (traps, venoms etc)
12) gives you 2 initiative
13) has a 900 range
14) is instacast
15) can even be casted if you cannot even port to the target currently because he is on an obstacle (effects still proc)
16) only has 21 1/2 seconds cooldown
17) ports to the target (instant gapcloser)
18) you get a skill that in most cases counters your enemy for a certain amount of time

Can you not see how this is utterly broken?
To be honest I don’t acually mind having such a thing on thief because thief requires at lot of skill to be played competetively but the problem is that even tho the thief uses a lot of trait points to improve his “steal” ability in order to improve his survivability he still deals a ridiculous amount of dmg by double procs (air-fire, fire-blood)

Solution:
1.) Add counterplay to steal (you can only predict it atm)
2.) Remove some effects of steal – or – nerf double procs but make up for the nerfs by buffing other things on classes (not thief) that rely on these procs to have sustained dmg

I do also think that passive stuff in this game needs an overwork as well (necro fear procs, engi burning, mesmer condi output) and the strength of weaponswitches with geomancy and doom on some classes

as well as relying on autoattack for dmg
mesmer – gs
ranger – shortbow
thief – autoattack
warrior – axe (except for eviscerate)
but this time i really want to discuss “steal”

also dont forget the day “pin down” got an animation – it added so much more skill to duels fighting as or against a warrior

lol mesmer spotted

all those things you mentioned u have to trait for
in other words, all your traits must be set around to buff steal and even so, it still
can’t get as much buffs as you mentioned.

I understand your frustration with the mesmer vs thief match up, but it’s a purely a l2p
issue.

perhaps u have reached your maximum potential or can no longer advance your skills
any further, either way your complain is both unrealistic and bias
any thief that trait his whole build around steal is a useless thief

Well, steal with any other specc, that does not have ANY steal buffing traits is rather bullkitten for an ( our only ) F-Ability — don’t you agree ?

Steal without traits:

- 900y-range instant cast to target
- 35 sec CD
- steal an ability from your enemy

Thats about it…

I know you play also thief often, but i really dont understand why you create that topic about it ?

If you ( as thief ) fail the steal, for whatever reason ( blind, block , dodge, los, bugs… ) you are really kittened , because the specc you mentioned ( 4/x/x/x/6 ) relies really very much on it .

Before Anet thinks about changing anything on steal, they should offer some other spec-possibilies that do not rely so much on traited steal.

I often play around and try new speccs, but the thing is, no matter what weaponset you play, you nearly everytime end up with a spec which has 2/x/x/x/6 because you need it.

It’s so much stronger that the other possible specs, and thief does have a special role in sPvp too, which does not offer much options for anything else.

You cannot play P/D full SA troll build in sPvp, well sure you could, but it does not help your team at all.

You will not be able to kill competent players in 1v1 on far nor can you hold home with it.
You might kill them but the point is not ticking for your team the whole time, which will make your team lose.

There is really no other role for a thief as roamer with high DPS, and since all the Burst-Builds / Abilities got nerfed hard, you will not benefit of any D/D 6/6/x/x/x build over a trickery build.

The dmg you can deal with a full trickery build is enough and you get all the goodies too.

So as long as this is not addressed in any way, nothing will happen.

I am amazed at how many people are commenting “Lol you have to trait for all that noob!” when the very first thing the OP said was “Summary of steal when using the current thief build (30 0 10 0 30)”.

He outright states this is a fully traited steal.

Ehecatl.9172:

I am amazed at how many people are commenting “Lol you have to trait for all that noob!” when the very first thing the OP said was “Summary of steal when using the current thief build (30 0 10 0 30)”.

He outright states this is a fully traited steal.

And everyone is saying that when you spend that many points to trait into steal, it SHOULD be that strong.

Sensotix.4106:

Summary of steal when using the current thief build (30 0 10 0 30)

1) 1.244 dmg (usually more)
2) 2 boons stolen (priority on stability)
3) giving these boons to you and nearby allies in a radius of 240
4) grants vigor for 10 seconds
5) grants you and allies in a radius of 360 fury for around 10 sec
6) grants you and allies in a radius of 360 swiftness for around 10 sec (and 1 might stack)
7) heals you for 2.040
8) puts poison on the enemy for 13 seconds
9) dazes the target (which goes through stab because its first priority on boons removed)
10) when using the current backstab build with panic strike it afflicts weakness for 51/4 sec on the enemy
11) recharges all skills of one type (traps, venoms etc)
12) gives you 2 initiative
13) has a 900 range
14) is instacast
15) can even be casted if you cannot even port to the target currently because he is on an obstacle (effects still proc)
16) only has 21 1/2 seconds cooldown
17) ports to the target (instant gapcloser)
18) you get a skill that in most cases counters your enemy for a certain amount of time

Can you not see how this is utterly broken?
To be honest I don’t acually mind having such a thing on thief because thief requires at lot of skill to be played competetively but the problem is that even tho the thief uses a lot of trait points to improve his “steal” ability in order to improve his survivability he still deals a ridiculous amount of dmg by double procs (air-fire, fire-blood)

Solution:
1.) Add counterplay to steal (you can only predict it atm)
2.) Remove some effects of steal – or – nerf double procs but make up for the nerfs by buffing other things on classes (not thief) that rely on these procs to have sustained dmg

I do also think that passive stuff in this game needs an overwork as well (necro fear procs, engi burning, mesmer condi output) and the strength of weaponswitches with geomancy and doom on some classes

as well as relying on autoattack for dmg
mesmer – gs
ranger – shortbow
thief – autoattack
warrior – axe (except for eviscerate)
but this time i really want to discuss “steal”

also dont forget the day “pin down” got an animation – it added so much more skill to duels fighting as or against a warrior

You are possibly new to GW2, steal has been nerfed after release (1st year) it was then doing insane damage and was unblockable. Its crit could go up to 8k and it was instant kills for squishy builds. People came on the forums and cried out loud and it was nerfed as it currently is meaning it cannot land a crit. They compensated with the minor heal you get from it. A 2k heal is by no means great especially in the current condition fests you see out there. (ie, steal from a fear build necro…..that heal you get is pointless unless you as a thief use other mechanics to survive)
Complaining about its damage is futile, because the base is a negligeable 1.2k and it might actually go up to 4k depending on the build. Now should we also nerf 1000 blades from the warrior because it crits like hell and can shred you to pieces? I feel it’s a learning curve issue.
Steal is blockable/dodgeable. What more do we need to understand in these mechanics? That one can dodge it and block it.
I agree with you on certain classes passives needing a rework.

I think a simple 1/2, 1/3, or 1/4 second cast time with an animation would make steal less about predicting but still come out fast enough to be effective.

If not I suggest not allowing it to be used without proper line of sight. (I think infiltrators strike should be the same but S/D is pretty balanced now I feel and such a change may hurt them to much)

Windfury.3598:

Steal is blockable/dodgeable. What more do we need to understand in these mechanics? That one can dodge it and block it.

What more do you need to understand about these mechanics? Here’s what:

Steal ignores Aegis because it steals it on priority.

It doesn’t hit through dodge, correct. But you can’t reactively dodge steal. Or predict and dodge it. This is because Steal is so precise that it can be completely reliably poked in the very millisecond your evade frames drop. A good thief’s success rate on steal is easily 95%, not including bugs/weird stuff. That’s why saying ‘oh it’s dodgeable/blockable, so that’s all you need to know (implied get to dodging and blocking it, noobs)’ is very misleading.

If steal is to be dodged or blocked, a Thief has to foolishly lose patience, and waste it. And this is all fine. Thief traits are balanced around Steal hitting 100% of the time, and I think it’s more or less working, minus perhaps being usable when you’re not in LOS of your target.

Daishi.6027:

I think a simple 1/2, 1/3, or 1/4 second cast time with an animation would make steal less about predicting but still come out fast enough to be effective.

If not I suggest not allowing it to be used without proper line of sight. (I think infiltrators strike should be the same but S/D is pretty balanced now I feel and such a change may hurt them to much)

Yeah the second option is much better. I am against putting a cast time on steal, unless the Thief’s traits could still benefit the Thief if hitting steal was the requirement to proc.

If Steal had a cast time, for that to work, it means un-linking some traits from Steal, and attaching them to other mechanics. Then a Trickery Thief wouldn’t be dirt if his Steals started getting reactively dodged by good players.

Am I the only thief who feels that the outcome of a fight doesn’t rely on a traited steal landing?

I win fights all the time when steal misses or is on CD.
I lose fights/have to retreat all the time when steal hits.

I don’t think steal is a big deal really. The only reasons I trait it is because a) the other traits are bugged or underwhelming and b) if you have the option to load traits on to a skill and then reduce that skill’s cooldown, you’re effectively reducing the CD of all the traits as well. Any intelligent player will try to maximise the synergy of their build.

shrug

Sarrow.2785:

Am I the only thief who feels that the outcome of a fight doesn’t rely on a traited steal landing?

I win fights all the time when steal misses or is on CD.
I lose fights/have to retreat all the time when steal hits.

That’s the thing. Most players who don’t play thief, or harbor irrational blind hatred for them (welcome to the forum community on any class ever), think, “Hurpa durp, all I have to do is hit steal and win gams.” When in reality it never works out like that for a multitude of reasons and will get you in downed state fast if you’re not careful. Is it critical for a thief to land their traited steal? Yes, but absolutely zero thieves just press it on cooldown as an “I win” button. They use it after they bait out dodges, and other defenses or when classes foolishly don’t cover their long cast times – just like every other class. It’s incredibly ridiculous to compare old pin down with steal. That being said, it probably should still have an los requirement on it but that’s all it really needs.

Chaith.8256:

Windfury.3598:

Steal is blockable/dodgeable. What more do we need to understand in these mechanics? That one can dodge it and block it.

What more do you need to understand about these mechanics? Here’s what:

Steal ignores Aegis because it steals it on priority.

It doesn’t hit through dodge, correct. But you can’t reactively dodge steal. Or predict and dodge it. This is because Steal is so precise that it can be completely reliably poked in the very millisecond your evade frames drop. A good thief’s success rate on steal is easily 95%, not including bugs/weird stuff. That’s why saying ‘oh it’s dodgeable/blockable, so that’s all you need to know (implied get to dodging and blocking it, noobs)’ is very misleading.

If steal is to be dodged or blocked, a Thief has to foolishly lose patience, and waste it. And this is all fine. Thief traits are balanced around Steal hitting 100% of the time, and I think it’s more or less working, minus perhaps being usable when you’re not in LOS of your target.

I by no means called anyone “noob”, you are putting words into my post that are not present.
A steal can be wasted and it does not land 100% of the time due to server lag or bugs. This itself does not make it a magic formula to win. Good for the thief if it actually lands and he actually steals and it does not reset instead putting it under CD with no gain from it, it has happened to many people it is still happening.
Steal being flawed this way I would hardly call it an OP skill that needs nerfing.
If you are going to cap a point alone and you know there is a thief in the enemy group then you should be prepared to at least fight back if you cannot avoid the first hit with steal.
As for guardians, so what if steal goes through ageis, I know basilisk venom doesn’t, it gets blocked, so there you have it, it is not a 100% win for the thief because of that, that would actually be funny if a guardian died because of a steal that ignored Aegis don’t you think. XD
Guardians have enough and more resources to get passed the initial first strike. The argument about Aegis is futile.

Some people are saying combined with Sleight of Hand it’s too powerful……it’s a 1 sec stun… if one can’t last 1 sec then something is wrong. It is not as powerful as the mesmer stun by all means. I think that stun is 3 sec one if I am not mistaken.

Steal does not need a second nerf that is my point here. If a thief invests 30 points in trickery he is sacrificing something more powerful to do so, ie, critical strikes or power.Every class can get passed the initial strike now that is what the first nerf intended and it does work this way. Not to mention the initial strike can be a total miss. Then we are at 50% disadvantage from the start.

just let the threat die

steal is a critical skill but is in no way overpower
threat is started by a mesmer who get stomped too hard by other thieves
it’s just bias and misguiding, don’t fuel towards ambition by giving it anymore
attention

it’s not worth looking at anymore

Original quote by Caed and the only thing that should be changed about steal:

After the patch they changed how the mechanic of Steal works. Previously it did the damage in a straight line – regardless of LoS (which is silly, and should never have been changed) and then would teleport you to your target. Now the ability attempts to teleport first, and then has a small radius of about 160 around you that it will trigger the other benefits of using Steal (Mug, SoH, etc). This is where all the problems come in. With the mass of teleport bugs in the game it renders the entire ability unreliable and useless at times. If your teleport bugs then you miss Steal – pretty straightforward. But it gets worse. If you Steal to someone as they teleport away then you will teleport to the spot they were at previously and be out of the 160 radius range, missing Steal. If someone moves an enemy as you Steal (Magnet Pull, Illusionary Wave, etc) you will teleport to where they where and miss your Steal. While the timings for these things are small and seem improbable they happen extremely frequently (multiple times a game) and can be very frustrating.
On a separate note Steal should be reverted to using the other mechanics prior to teleporting but not be able to be used through LoS. This adds reliable counterplay as well as making Steal a reliable ability again

Fay.2357:

I’m not worried about random people complaining about random things, because people do that no matter what.

I my self will apologize for what you noticed. but please, let me educate all this fool about their foolishness. besides its all about learning and teaching, right.

(i do not want to be sounds rude)
Homosapiens, hear me, if you cannot counter a well invested grandmaster Trickery thief in conquest (which require build diversity and team play) whatever weapon set s/he use and considering the fact how user friendly it is(i mean seriously, everyone can play it blindfolded), but this game permit you to change traits whenever and wherever you are and weapons as well,i feel sorry for all of you and start learning to play. cos if you still didn’t notice we are already in a professionalism scene.

Simon.3794:

Skrill.6170:

Simon.3794:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

it takes 12 traits ( minor ones included )to make steal as strong it is yet you feel your kittening is justified i bet …………………….people.

so, mesmer has 12 traits, but are shatters as strong as steal?
warrior has 12 traits, but are burst skills as strong as steal?

why to justify……hmmmmm…

Mesmer shatters:
1 – deals high dmg
2 – applies 1 stack confusion
3 – daze
4 – 5 stacks vulnerability
5 – evade all attacks for 1 sec
6 – interrupt with f3 applies 3 stacks vulnerability
7 – every shatter applies 1 stack vulnerability
8 – every shatter applies 1 stack confusion
9 – f2 grants 5 sec retaliation
10 – instant recharge all shatters at 50% hp
11 – shattering illusions grants might
12 – shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well
13 – every shatter skill is aoe
14 – when midwrack/cry crits, you get vigor
15 – mindwrack deals 20% more dmg
16 – every shatter removes a boon on hit
17 – every shatter is instant cast
18 – shatter recharge reduced by 30%
19 – shatter effects get stronger for every illusion shattered
20 – can be activated from long range
.
wahh shatter too stronk wahh
.
.
Yes, your shatters are just as strong as steal. My point is.. yes u get extremely strong skills if u heavily trait into the corresponding trait lines.

shatter is not as strong, 1st it’s so easy to dodge unlike steal, even at melee range is so easy to dodge, no body would ever use it at long range, shatter is melee ranged, if you can’t see clones walking slowly to you then it’s really L2P, 2nd it’s 4 buttons not one. 3rd of all, mesmer not my main, i just play it like i play thief, mesmer, warrior, engi, necro, cuz you know, learn about other classes and counter plays make you better, in fact i have more time on my thief then most of the classes.

OT: i was playing non trickery thieves 4 signet 1 shot trolol build, and these trickery thieves just abuse steal so much, getting carried by it, and act like they are good. so sad, it’s like people playing PU and think they are good. unreal. for the ones i’ve countered today, without trickery steal hit they can’t even win, even tho i’m freaking 4 signets. not to mention that i’m freaking human and they are asuras ( gg standard enemy models gets undone after stealth.)

I can’t tell what this thread is about anymore.

The logic of this is god awful and the things listed as relevant are sad.

Anything that is traited heavily, as a main focus in a build, will be powerful.
Did people forget that was a thing?

If a warrior traits to make burst skill’s stronger..
They are stronger.

If a guardian traits to make meditations stronger.
They get stronger.

Same with shatter mes, fresh air burst ele’s, power necro’s..
The list goes on.

You are a mesmer. I am sorry to tell you, thieves will counter you. Wether they are in the trickery line or SA line. While on the same coin, guardians can counter thieves.

This game does have things that counter other things. Now if your intention is to make shatter mes godlike ( like they were when the might shatter was bugged) Then be my guest.
But make it clear in the original post
You want your counter to be nerfed so you don’t have to worry as much.

It’s not about nerfing a counter as such, although I would say it is ridiculous to have such a hard counter of anything – and guardians certainly aren’t a hard counter of thieves, only if thief decides to stick in a 1v1 with a guardian and there is always the choice of thief to disengage.

you forgot…is a stunbreak

I agree with the thread poster but the reality is it’s going to be impossible to discuss the issue because there are too many inexperienced players choking the thread with replies. I mean no ill will whatsoever but this is the difficulty of having a purely public free for all forum.

Steal has the same issue that IP (for Engineer) does in that it can’t really be outskilled, only played around to the best of one’s ability. It is overloaded to begin with (there is no real reason Thieves need to strip boons, nor is the vigor required) and on top it is instant cast which makes landing or not landing the skill 100% luck.

If Steal is intended to destroy other glassy characters so much then why not cut all the silly BS and just make it a 30k damage nuke? (This is in essence what the idea was before the Mug nerf). I would like to remind everyone that this affects everyone, including other Thieves, who are almost guaranteed to lose if they miss their Steal and get hit by their opponent’s. It is exhausting to wear down a Thief only for them to bounce back every ~20 seconds due to their excellent sustain, counter-pressure and initiative feed.

The whole thing is an awful mess of design from the ground up, Grouch unfortunately also has a priapic stiffy for the class thanks to the company he keeps so it’s incredibly difficult to get sensible balance passes pushed through. (I have no idea what the flanking strike change was supposed to accomplish).

The things we need to take away from this discussion is it is dangerous for ANet to make skills that have so many buffs that can stack on it, we see another interesting similarity between Celestial and specs which benefit from a variety.

Happy balance is what we should strive for.

kitten Sbow.

why nerf a class that is not even performing good?

shimmerlessEU.6841:

I agree with the thread poster but the reality is it’s going to be impossible to discuss the issue because there are too many inexperienced players choking the thread with replies. I mean no ill will whatsoever but this is the difficulty of having a purely public free for all forum.

Steal has the same issue that IP (for Engineer) does in that it can’t really be outskilled, only played around to the best of one’s ability. It is overloaded to begin with (there is no real reason Thieves need to strip boons, nor is the vigor required) and on top it is instant cast which makes landing or not landing the skill 100% luck.

If Steal is intended to destroy other glassy characters so much then why not cut all the silly BS and just make it a 30k damage nuke? (This is in essence what the idea was before the Mug nerf). I would like to remind everyone that this affects everyone, including other Thieves, who are almost guaranteed to lose if they miss their Steal and get hit by their opponent’s. It is exhausting to wear down a Thief only for them to bounce back every ~20 seconds due to their excellent sustain, counter-pressure and initiative feed.

The whole thing is an awful mess of design from the ground up, Grouch unfortunately also has a priapic stiffy for the class thanks to the company he keeps so it’s incredibly difficult to get sensible balance passes pushed through. (I have no idea what the flanking strike change was supposed to accomplish).

what a surprise you main mesmer! honestly this whole thread just feels like mesmers trying their hardest to get nerfs for the only beserker profession that can handle them.

it’s going to be out right impossible to discuss because there is nothing to discuss. steal is completely balanced even when fully traited; thief as a whole is one of the most balanced professions in the game without a shadow of a doubt.

steal can be outplayed ridiculously easily: blinds, blocks, invulns, stealth, and evades coupled with smart prediction make steal painfully easy to counter in straight up 1v1 scenarios. it’s an active skill that requires smart, conscientious use to be effective; comparing it to incendiary power is just wrong.

calling for a nerf on a profession that has recieved nothing but while it’s already considered to be well balanced just because it does well against your profession is caustic to the game. until someone is able to offer an argument not based solely on anecdotal evidence and biased opinions as to why steal is broken, there is nothing to discuss. as it’s been said here already, why look to nerf a profession that isn’t broken?

@Sinject Actually I think med guard is a better zerk counter than thief for killing mesmers, and surely the players are only disgruntled due to a lack of a “tell” I think in general, plus this thread aside ppl have been complaining about thieves for a loooong time. profession preference aside, tho I do agree for the most part that even if things stayed the same for thieves it would still be pretty balanced.

@All That all being said however I think a proper LoS requirement should be standard across the game, there are a lot of skills in this game that you can activate through walls onto a target (usually a targeted teleport of some type).

Now it’s cool that they all work the same in the fact that they can by pass terrain and obstacles, but being as strong as such a thing is for this game type I am against it as a core mechanic.

^ if anything at the very least if we argue steal is balanced, then everything else should require proper line of sight. Leaving steal being the thief class mechanic as the solitary skill to by pass terrain and obstacles.

sinject.4607:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

I agree with the thread poster but the reality is it’s going to be impossible to discuss the issue because there are too many inexperienced players choking the thread with replies. I mean no ill will whatsoever but this is the difficulty of having a purely public free for all forum.

Steal has the same issue that IP (for Engineer) does in that it can’t really be outskilled, only played around to the best of one’s ability. It is overloaded to begin with (there is no real reason Thieves need to strip boons, nor is the vigor required) and on top it is instant cast which makes landing or not landing the skill 100% luck.

If Steal is intended to destroy other glassy characters so much then why not cut all the silly BS and just make it a 30k damage nuke? (This is in essence what the idea was before the Mug nerf). I would like to remind everyone that this affects everyone, including other Thieves, who are almost guaranteed to lose if they miss their Steal and get hit by their opponent’s. It is exhausting to wear down a Thief only for them to bounce back every ~20 seconds due to their excellent sustain, counter-pressure and initiative feed.

The whole thing is an awful mess of design from the ground up, Grouch unfortunately also has a priapic stiffy for the class thanks to the company he keeps so it’s incredibly difficult to get sensible balance passes pushed through. (I have no idea what the flanking strike change was supposed to accomplish).

what a surprise you main mesmer! honestly this whole thread just feels like mesmers trying their hardest to get nerfs for the only beserker profession that can handle them.

it’s going to be out right impossible to discuss because there is nothing to discuss. steal is completely balanced even when fully traited; thief as a whole is one of the most balanced professions in the game without a shadow of a doubt.

steal can be outplayed ridiculously easily: blinds, blocks, invulns, stealth, and evades coupled with smart prediction make steal painfully easy to counter in straight up 1v1 scenarios. it’s an active skill that requires smart, conscientious use to be effective; comparing it to incendiary power is just wrong.

calling for a nerf on a profession that has recieved nothing but while it’s already considered to be well balanced just because it does well against your profession is caustic to the game. until someone is able to offer an argument not based solely on anecdotal evidence and biased opinions as to why steal is broken, there is nothing to discuss. as it’s been said here already, why look to nerf a profession that isn’t broken?

I never raised any class in specific with regard to this discussion muffin, as I made a decisive point in explaining that Thief v. Thief itself is incredibly swingy due to Steal, personally I have way more issues on Thief w/r/t Steal than I ever do with mesmer. It really affects all classes, even Guards, because Trickery has been artificially raised to the spec par excellence for tourney Thieves. I actually have a similar problem with my own class where the trait lines for competitive play are really just a false choice. It is the very same here. No one will give up traited Steal because it’s way too strong to pass on for any alternatives.

Blinds, blocks, invulns and so on are reasonable reactions to or anticipations for Steal; they are not means of outskilling the ability. Steal cannot be outskilled because it’s instant cast. That is why in its current form it’s very similar to IP. You can react to it and you can anticipate it but you can never reliably counterplay it. If you could it would be broken because you would never land a Steal on a decent player, and so much power is loaded into the ability it would likely kill the spec entirely.

The overall point is that something has to go. Either the sheer power needs toning down (Trickery was buffed to this state to begin with) or it needs dispersing with reasonable counterplay introduced to the skill itself. The class is already borderline immune to terrain defense and one of the gap closers is packed fatter than a Christmas turkey. It’s completely inane. As I’ve said if this is how it’s supposed to be then just replace it with a 30k nuke. Same difference.

People have raised the issue that Thief isn’t one of the overperforming classes right now. I don’t necessarily agree with this but I understand the point. In a perfect world balance passes would be holistic and more than one class per patch would actually be brought into line. We don’t live in a perfect world and realistically as I said we won’t see any changes to Steal either anyway. But it would still be nice to see people calming their emotions and taking an objective look at the many many things that need attention in GW2.

Solori.6025:

Simon.3794:

Skrill.6170:

Simon.3794:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

it takes 12 traits ( minor ones included )to make steal as strong it is yet you feel your kittening is justified i bet …………………….people.

so, mesmer has 12 traits, but are shatters as strong as steal?
warrior has 12 traits, but are burst skills as strong as steal?

why to justify……hmmmmm…

Mesmer shatters:
1 – deals high dmg
2 – applies 1 stack confusion
3 – daze
4 – 5 stacks vulnerability
5 – evade all attacks for 1 sec
6 – interrupt with f3 applies 3 stacks vulnerability
7 – every shatter applies 1 stack vulnerability
8 – every shatter applies 1 stack confusion
9 – f2 grants 5 sec retaliation
10 – instant recharge all shatters at 50% hp
11 – shattering illusions grants might
12 – shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well
13 – every shatter skill is aoe
14 – when midwrack/cry crits, you get vigor
15 – mindwrack deals 20% more dmg
16 – every shatter removes a boon on hit
17 – every shatter is instant cast
18 – shatter recharge reduced by 30%
19 – shatter effects get stronger for every illusion shattered
20 – can be activated from long range
.
wahh shatter too stronk wahh
.
.
Yes, your shatters are just as strong as steal. My point is.. yes u get extremely strong skills if u heavily trait into the corresponding trait lines.

shatter is not as strong, 1st it’s so easy to dodge unlike steal, even at melee range is so easy to dodge, no body would ever use it at long range, shatter is melee ranged, if you can’t see clones walking slowly to you then it’s really L2P, 2nd it’s 4 buttons not one. 3rd of all, mesmer not my main, i just play it like i play thief, mesmer, warrior, engi, necro, cuz you know, learn about other classes and counter plays make you better, in fact i have more time on my thief then most of the classes.

OT: i was playing non trickery thieves 4 signet 1 shot trolol build, and these trickery thieves just abuse steal so much, getting carried by it, and act like they are good. so sad, it’s like people playing PU and think they are good. unreal. for the ones i’ve countered today, without trickery steal hit they can’t even win, even tho i’m freaking 4 signets. not to mention that i’m freaking human and they are asuras ( gg standard enemy models gets undone after stealth.)

I can’t tell what this thread is about anymore.

The logic of this is god awful and the things listed as relevant are sad.

Anything that is traited heavily, as a main focus in a build, will be powerful.
Did people forget that was a thing?

If a warrior traits to make burst skill’s stronger..
They are stronger.

If a guardian traits to make meditations stronger.
They get stronger.

Same with shatter mes, fresh air burst ele’s, power necro’s..
The list goes on.

You are a mesmer. I am sorry to tell you, thieves will counter you. Wether they are in the trickery line or SA line. While on the same coin, guardians can counter thieves.

This game does have things that counter other things. Now if your intention is to make shatter mes godlike ( like they were when the might shatter was bugged) Then be my guest.
But make it clear in the original post
You want your counter to be nerfed so you don’t have to worry as much.

your are blurring the issue, my good sir, what you are saying here is that if you trait something, it has to be that way even it is unbalanced.
for the sake of discussion I would again remind everyone there is a fine line between, enhanced and overpowered, and the case for something to be unbalanced and overpowered will tends to happen when they are enhanced drastically.
steal is exactly the case.
when an average class invest 30 points in a tree, they get a enhanced tool kit, everything within that tool kit get a little more awesome than before, it is fine.
in case of trickery, the only thing that gets enhanced is steal, the line benefit reduce recharge on steal, the thing that people are forced to pick promote one particular skill among everything in the theif’s tool kit, the steal. something you rarely see in other classes.
to summarize, what I have listed above has given enough foundation as to where an overpowered and unbalanced skill to be born out of all the heavy enhancement it has gone through with two additional built-in factors.
1. instant cast from range.
2.lack of telegraph and proper indications/hint.

so they dont have to nerf overpowered classes?
they have to nerf useful skills of classes that are not op?
i dont get it.

Fix Steal Bug also while you’re at it review the effects of many useless thief traits (Hard to Catch activating randomly when stability is up?, FS blocable\LS unblockable?). Give thieves more options to go than just 30 trickery and nerf what hard-counter thieves (Medi Guardians?, Turret Engies?). Remove passive play and instant burst from range.
After all of this we can discuss about Steal being OP.

Yes, it needs a nerf. As does Consume Plasma.

Elfindale.4836:

your are blurring the issue, my good sir, what you are saying here is that if you trait something, it has to be that way even it is unbalanced.
for the sake of discussion I would again remind everyone there is a fine line between, enhanced and overpowered, and the case for something to be unbalanced and overpowered will tends to happen when they are enhanced drastically.
steal is exactly the case.

So can I expect a similair thread to
-
Medi Guardians—no tell for interupting meditations which heal

Fresh Air Ele- No tell for burst rotation with air and lightning flash

Mantra Mesmer- No tell to which mantra will hit you, especially for mantra of Distraction and Pain

Necro fear- No tell for CC fear or DS fear and marks are not clear.

All of these classes can build for something. And the majority in this thread seem to want tell’s for something.

Why not start with the mesmer mantra’s, Give Mantra of Distraction and Mantra of Pain a 2 second wind up so they can be dodged now that they are AoEs

Why not nerf mesmer daze duration so it doesnt stack. Make mantra’s half a second, and diversion 1 sec max daze, so it doesn’t stun lock players who have little or no access to stability

when an average class invest 30 points in a tree, they get a enhanced tool kit, everything within that tool kit get a little more awesome than before, it is fine.
in case of trickery, the only thing that gets enhanced is steal, the line benefit reduce recharge on steal, the thing that people are forced to pick promote one particular skill among everything in the theif’s tool kit, the steal. something you rarely see in other classes.

So your telling me a medi guardian, shatter mes, turrent engi, LB power ranger..
All who focus traits for one weapon, or utility.
Are not in the same boat as a thief, who focus’s on steal?

to summarize, what I have listed above has given enough foundation as to where an overpowered and unbalanced skill to be born out of all the heavy enhancement it has gone through with two additional built-in factors.
1. instant cast from range.
2.lack of telegraph and proper indications/hint.

If we change one for one class, you do it for all.
You can’t have your cake and eat someone elses pie too.

If we nerf one instant cast skill from range for one class.
Nerf instant cast skills from range for all classes.
So we dont have this discussion again.

I gave a list. Let’s add more,
Turrent action from engi
Kit swapping from engi

arcane blast and pulse for ele- are instant cast skills and need a tell

All the skills in plague form have no tell.

animations from stealth need to remove stealth, it removes counter play entirely.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Actually shatter and steal are both skill-less builds since you are depending on the ability of you opponent to click on your character and nothing else.
miss click or miss dodge = gibbed.

Some kitten in this game really needs reliable counters (like retaliation was in the beginning) something that actually punishes going into zerk instead of making zerk the norm.

Any build that uses 1-2 buttons to drop huge damage has no reason to exist in this game tbh.

zerk the norm rofl

go tell that to 4/5 celestial bunkers bs comps

shimmerlessEU.6841:

I never raised any class in specific with regard to this discussion muffin, as I made a decisive point in explaining that Thief v. Thief itself is incredibly swingy due to Steal, personally I have way more issues on Thief w/r/t Steal than I ever do with mesmer. It really affects all classes, even Guards, because Trickery has been artificially raised to the spec par excellence for tourney Thieves. I actually have a similar problem with my own class where the trait lines for competitive play are really just a false choice. It is the very same here. No one will give up traited Steal because it’s way too strong to pass on for any alternatives.

Blinds, blocks, invulns and so on are reasonable reactions to or anticipations for Steal; they are not means of outskilling the ability. Steal cannot be outskilled because it’s instant cast. That is why in its current form it’s very similar to IP. You can react to it and you can anticipate it but you can never reliably counterplay it. If you could it would be broken because you would never land a Steal on a decent player, and so much power is loaded into the ability it would likely kill the spec entirely.

The overall point is that something has to go. Either the sheer power needs toning down (Trickery was buffed to this state to begin with) or it needs dispersing with reasonable counterplay introduced to the skill itself. The class is already borderline immune to terrain defense and one of the gap closers is packed fatter than a Christmas turkey. It’s completely inane. As I’ve said if this is how it’s supposed to be then just replace it with a 30k nuke. Same difference.

People have raised the issue that Thief isn’t one of the overperforming classes right now. I don’t necessarily agree with this but I understand the point. In a perfect world balance passes would be holistic and more than one class per patch would actually be brought into line. We don’t live in a perfect world and realistically as I said we won’t see any changes to Steal either anyway. But it would still be nice to see people calming their emotions and taking an objective look at the many many things that need attention in GW2.

an objective look?

your post history shows you posting primarily in the mesmer subforum, so obviously your perspective is biased towards the profession you main. you can claim you’re being objective all you want but coincidentally, just like everyone else calling for a nerf to steal, you just so happen to main mesmer. i don’t think you’re really able to offer “an objective look”.

you’re paper calling for a nerf to scissors.

you’re not coming here with fact-based statements, you’re not coming here with detailed arguments, you’re not even suggesting thief get strength elsewhere to make up for the nerf, just calling for a straight up nerf to a profession that has been “in line” for ages now while not actually giving any genuine reasoning for it; all you’re doing is calling it instant cast and calling it a day as if this is a self-sustaining argument. you’re completely decontextualizing steal and wrongly putting in the same category as Incendiary Powder even though I’ve already explained the difference between the two: the issue isn’t counterplay, it’s the fact that a passive ability has no counterplay; and steal is anything but passive. not everything needs direct, 100% reliable counterplay. look at meditation guard, literally 90% of everything that build does has no counterplay and yet you don’t see teams running dual meditation guards.

TexZero.7910:

you forgot…is a stunbreak

It’s also an invuln for 10seconds if it lands (and 5seconds if it doesn’t land).

At least the effects from steal require you to hit steal. Its not as passive as some skills in GW2

IP dont need a nerf !
We must increase more the UP things !
We must buff Rangers , so they can have a meta build too !
And then aim to create slowly more ’’fun’’ meta builds like now !

…. remove the rewards cap from hotjoin plz (and fix it if you wish)….
…. but dont force the different kind of ppl that the manifesto attracted , to get more angrier with these bullkittens ….

I would be happy with the line of sight requirement, for all off their ports.

So when did 6/0/2/0/6 become new meta for thief?

vincecontix.1264:

So when did 6/0/2/0/6 become new meta for thief?

Since people realized that panic strike with a mesmer works really well together. It’s mainly an EU build.

Honestly this article is redundant at this point. There is no way anything with respect to this game will change outside of an expansion. Otherwise they will be tinkering numbers when core issues stop the game being fun to a significant number of people (pvp wise).

The more you play the PvP the more you get disapointted with lameness. Everything is uncounterable. Thiefs spamming ports/evades. Mesmers spamming ports/damage from 1500 with massive insta burst. They are probably the two most frustrating to play against but on the whole every class is on some level frustrating to fight against. I guess massive sigil power also just adds to frustrations. Because you just die out of nowhere. That isnt fun to fight against. Thief having no cooldowns? Not fun. So many issues. And will never be resolved. So at this point making articles like this is pointless. It is better to either quit the game or just give up on any seriousness in the game and just enjoy it when you can enjoy it.

Either way, we all probably got our monies worth from this game. So thanks to anet for that. But in terms of a pvp game with lasting appeal. There is none due to how most of the classes are not fun to fight against. This is a design failure but it is minor compared to a good value for money game they produced.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Honestly this article is redundant at this point. There is no way anything with respect to this game will change outside of an expansion. Otherwise they will be tinkering numbers when core issues stop the game being fun to a significant number of people (pvp wise).

The more you play the PvP the more you get disapointted with lameness. Everything is uncounterable. Thiefs spamming ports/evades. Mesmers spamming ports/damage from 1500 with massive insta burst. They are probably the two most frustrating to play against but on the whole every class is on some level frustrating to fight against. I guess massive sigil power also just adds to frustrations. Because you just die out of nowhere. That isnt fun to fight against. Thief having no cooldowns? Not fun. So many issues. And will never be resolved. So at this point making articles like this is pointless. It is better to either quit the game or just give up on any seriousness in the game and just enjoy it when you can enjoy it.

Either way, we all probably got our monies worth from this game. So thanks to anet for that. But in terms of a pvp game with lasting appeal. There is none due to how most of the classes are not fun to fight against. This is a design failure but it is minor compared to a good value for money game they produced.

I Love how “everything is uncounterable” is followed by kittening about 2 specific classes. Your bias has been evident for years – that’s a strong statement for a game that’s barely in the plural phase of existence, and unfortunately true.

Hrmm so after y’all get steal/trickery nerfed what will you demand to nerf on thieves now?

P/P?

T raw.4658:

Hrmm so after y’all get steal/trickery nerfed what will you demand to nerf on thieves now?

P/P?

Lets put it this way.
by nerfing steal and trickery you ruin p/p (atleast half of p/p viable build that i know in conquest).
i swear, people in this game need to stop watching their twitch.tv hero.

Chapell.1346:

T raw.4658:

Hrmm so after y’all get steal/trickery nerfed what will you demand to nerf on thieves now?

P/P?

Lets put it this way.
by nerfing steal and trickery you ruin p/p (atleast half of p/p viable build that i know in conquest).
i swear, people in this game need to stop watching their twitch.tv hero.

^ This thank you. We need more truth around here.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Honestly this article is redundant at this point. There is no way anything with respect to this game will change outside of an expansion. Otherwise they will be tinkering numbers when core issues stop the game being fun to a significant number of people (pvp wise).

The more you play the PvP the more you get disapointted with lameness. Everything is uncounterable. Thiefs spamming ports/evades. Mesmers spamming ports/damage from 1500 with massive insta burst. They are probably the two most frustrating to play against but on the whole every class is on some level frustrating to fight against. I guess massive sigil power also just adds to frustrations. Because you just die out of nowhere. That isnt fun to fight against. Thief having no cooldowns? Not fun. So many issues. And will never be resolved. So at this point making articles like this is pointless. It is better to either quit the game or just give up on any seriousness in the game and just enjoy it when you can enjoy it.

Either way, we all probably got our monies worth from this game. So thanks to anet for that. But in terms of a pvp game with lasting appeal. There is none due to how most of the classes are not fun to fight against. This is a design failure but it is minor compared to a good value for money game they produced.

You seem to be one of those people that just hate the game in general…

Why are you still playing if you don’t like any of the classes?

Chapell.1346:

T raw.4658:

Hrmm so after y’all get steal/trickery nerfed what will you demand to nerf on thieves now?

P/P?

Lets put it this way.
by nerfing steal and trickery you ruin p/p (atleast half of p/p viable build that i know in conquest).
i swear, people in this game need to stop watching their twitch.tv hero.

they havent nerfed the actual weapon skills….watch unload channel to be decreased and zero projectile finisher slapped on