Guild Wars 2

IllegalChocolate.6938:

a strategy is quite doable on the archdiviner, extremely easy to do using a net turret + rifle + supply crate setup as an engineer, regardless of toughness or not. Whether the loss in damage was worth it was a different discussion.

Starting to go a bit off topic (on my end), but I’ve always thought immobilize was too strong in comparison to blinds and disables. (edit: quick clarification, if immobilize ever did get nerfed to be similar to blind, I would want the other CCs buffed to compensate)

In general, the partial loss of damage from one player is greatly offset by the gains from 4 other players having uninterrupted rotations.

I threw that idea up (unquoted because I later made some attempts to format and refine it) as an illustration of how removal of some berserker could add some depth, but because of the increased coordination may end up more difficult (and elitist) than the status quo.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

To be brutally honest, most people aren’t about fairness, but quickness in this game. As I mentioned before, gear is a choice everyone can make and equality of opportunity exists for the most part.

Referencing your unquoted bit, I’m pretty sure you understood my logic, but intentionally chose not to accept it. You showed your understanding when you brought up “filtering alternatives”.

You also don’t need to be so passive aggressive or personal. I’m not very elitist myself (I generally ask for 80 zerkers but do not check gear or traits), nor do I do many dungeons anymore. However, I absolutely support a group’s right to prioritize quickness over fairness even with the use of not-always-reliable filtering and profiling.

I understand this mentality as my previous proposals seek to rebalance the setups that allow multitudes of ideologies be competitive in the terms of quickness. I am not asking for everyone to slow down, I am asking for everyone the ability to be competitive as long as the dedication is as strong. Take a look at my previous suggestions that don’t have me wailing on the zerker meta from a personal opinion standpoint, I personally find them reasonable.

Flawed, but I believe my ideas to be in the right direction as far as making content that can be considered threatening but with its own forgiving systems.

I’m sorry but this isn’t some form of Anime – where the hero just wills his way to victory.
Wanting to be good doesn’t equal being good. Being good takes time, takes practice, knowledge, time investment and will.

Just because a group of bad players wants it very much to be just as fast as the group that has basically dedicated their in-game time to being great at the game doesn’t mean the game should change to give them similar clear times.

Just because a player who has 500 hours of gametime wants to be just as effective as someone who’s put in well over 2000 doesn’t mean that the game should accommodate that.

You want to be good? You want competitive clear times? Work for it. Gear for it. Learn the encounters. Learn your class. Practice. Execute flawlessly and then you’ll have it.

Why hand it out freely? Just because they want to and are doing the best they can?
Maybe sometimes – just like in life – your best isn’t good enough. My best wasn’t good enough when I first put on zerker gear but I worked towards it and made it work.

The game doesn’t have to change to accommodate for these players – they have to change adapt and improve.

A tank’s role is not simply to eat damage, but to get the damage off the group and position things properly. If agro mechanics were consistent and controllable you’d open up the door for people to play a tank role.

As far as the comparison to WvW/sPVP, what are you wanting? PVE to become about sitting on a node and surviving? Or about running through arrow cart damage?

I appreciate the use of “Dolt” because I love that word, but that edit was good, so you do want a trinity system, just not a required one… ok…

I really don’t see why people can’t understand and accept GW2’s system for what it is. The gear is only part of it, it’s your ratio of general offense vs general defense. From there you choose weapons, traits, sigils, and runes and htat’s where you truly specialize and can create some fun and worthwhile combinations outside of the meta, meta is simply either mathmatical max potentials or suggested options. There are a lot of variations that are good.

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

To be brutally honest, most people aren’t about fairness, but quickness in this game. As I mentioned before, gear is a choice everyone can make and equality of opportunity exists for the most part.

Referencing your unquoted bit, I’m pretty sure you understood my logic, but intentionally chose not to accept it. You showed your understanding when you brought up “filtering alternatives”.

You also don’t need to be so passive aggressive or personal. I’m not very elitist myself (I generally ask for 80 zerkers but do not check gear or traits), nor do I do many dungeons anymore. However, I absolutely support a group’s right to prioritize quickness over fairness even with the use of not-always-reliable filtering and profiling.

I understand this mentality as my previous proposals seek to rebalance the setups that allow multitudes of ideologies be competitive in the terms of quickness. I am not asking for everyone to slow down, I am asking for everyone the ability to be competitive as long as the dedication is as strong. Take a look at my previous suggestions that don’t have me wailing on the zerker meta from a personal opinion standpoint, I personally find them reasonable.

Flawed, but I believe my ideas to be in the right direction as far as making content that can be considered threatening but with its own forgiving systems.

I’m sorry but this isn’t some form of Anime – where the hero just wills his way to victory.
Wanting to be good doesn’t equal being good. Being good takes time, takes practice, knowledge, time investment and will.

Just because a group of bad players wants it very much to be just as fast as the group that has basically dedicated their in-game time to being great at the game doesn’t mean the game should change to give them similar clear times.

Just because a player who has 500 hours of gametime wants to be just as effective as someone who’s put in well over 2000 doesn’t mean that the game should accommodate that.

You want to be good? You want competitive clear times? Work for it. Gear for it. Learn the encounters. Learn your class. Practice. Execute flawlessly and then you’ll have it.

Why hand it out freely? Just because they want to and are doing the best they can?
Maybe sometimes – just like in life – your best isn’t good enough. My best wasn’t good enough when I first put on zerker gear but I worked towards it and made it work.

The game doesn’t have to change to accommodate for these players – they have to change adapt and improve.

You don’t understand my perspective.

I am saying if two people have 2000 hours of gameplay with the same skill ceiling but have different skillsets and statistical strengths, they should be able to succeed in roughly the same time as long as they are tackling the challenges using their advantages.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

To be brutally honest, most people aren’t about fairness, but quickness in this game. As I mentioned before, gear is a choice everyone can make and equality of opportunity exists for the most part.

Referencing your unquoted bit, I’m pretty sure you understood my logic, but intentionally chose not to accept it. You showed your understanding when you brought up “filtering alternatives”.

You also don’t need to be so passive aggressive or personal. I’m not very elitist myself (I generally ask for 80 zerkers but do not check gear or traits), nor do I do many dungeons anymore. However, I absolutely support a group’s right to prioritize quickness over fairness even with the use of not-always-reliable filtering and profiling.

I understand this mentality as my previous proposals seek to rebalance the setups that allow multitudes of ideologies be competitive in the terms of quickness. I am not asking for everyone to slow down, I am asking for everyone the ability to be competitive as long as the dedication is as strong. Take a look at my previous suggestions that don’t have me wailing on the zerker meta from a personal opinion standpoint, I personally find them reasonable.

Flawed, but I believe my ideas to be in the right direction as far as making content that can be considered threatening but with its own forgiving systems.

I’m sorry but this isn’t some form of Anime – where the hero just wills his way to victory.
Wanting to be good doesn’t equal being good. Being good takes time, takes practice, knowledge, time investment and will.

Just because a group of bad players wants it very much to be just as fast as the group that has basically dedicated their in-game time to being great at the game doesn’t mean the game should change to give them similar clear times.

Just because a player who has 500 hours of gametime wants to be just as effective as someone who’s put in well over 2000 doesn’t mean that the game should accommodate that.

You want to be good? You want competitive clear times? Work for it. Gear for it. Learn the encounters. Learn your class. Practice. Execute flawlessly and then you’ll have it.

Why hand it out freely? Just because they want to and are doing the best they can?
Maybe sometimes – just like in life – your best isn’t good enough. My best wasn’t good enough when I first put on zerker gear but I worked towards it and made it work.

The game doesn’t have to change to accommodate for these players – they have to change adapt and improve.

You don’t understand my perspective.

I am saying if two people have 2000 hours of gameplay with the same skill ceiling but have different skillsets and statistical strengths, they should be able to succeed in roughly the same time as long as they are tackling the challenges using their advantages.

In the spirit of full understanding, how would you say change the Lupicus encounter to reward being in PVT gear and make it the same speed as full zerk? How would being tanky benefit in this situation?

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

To be brutally honest, most people aren’t about fairness, but quickness in this game. As I mentioned before, gear is a choice everyone can make and equality of opportunity exists for the most part.

Referencing your unquoted bit, I’m pretty sure you understood my logic, but intentionally chose not to accept it. You showed your understanding when you brought up “filtering alternatives”.

You also don’t need to be so passive aggressive or personal. I’m not very elitist myself (I generally ask for 80 zerkers but do not check gear or traits), nor do I do many dungeons anymore. However, I absolutely support a group’s right to prioritize quickness over fairness even with the use of not-always-reliable filtering and profiling.

I understand this mentality as my previous proposals seek to rebalance the setups that allow multitudes of ideologies be competitive in the terms of quickness. I am not asking for everyone to slow down, I am asking for everyone the ability to be competitive as long as the dedication is as strong. Take a look at my previous suggestions that don’t have me wailing on the zerker meta from a personal opinion standpoint, I personally find them reasonable.

Flawed, but I believe my ideas to be in the right direction as far as making content that can be considered threatening but with its own forgiving systems.

I’m sorry but this isn’t some form of Anime – where the hero just wills his way to victory.
Wanting to be good doesn’t equal being good. Being good takes time, takes practice, knowledge, time investment and will.

Just because a group of bad players wants it very much to be just as fast as the group that has basically dedicated their in-game time to being great at the game doesn’t mean the game should change to give them similar clear times.

Just because a player who has 500 hours of gametime wants to be just as effective as someone who’s put in well over 2000 doesn’t mean that the game should accommodate that.

You want to be good? You want competitive clear times? Work for it. Gear for it. Learn the encounters. Learn your class. Practice. Execute flawlessly and then you’ll have it.

Why hand it out freely? Just because they want to and are doing the best they can?
Maybe sometimes – just like in life – your best isn’t good enough. My best wasn’t good enough when I first put on zerker gear but I worked towards it and made it work.

The game doesn’t have to change to accommodate for these players – they have to change adapt and improve.

You don’t understand my perspective.

I am saying if two people have 2000 hours of gameplay with the same skill ceiling but have different skillsets and statistical strengths, they should be able to succeed in roughly the same time as long as they are tackling the challenges using their advantages.

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Jerus.4350:

Yes, lets make a massive change to gameplay years after release, it’s always so successful when games do that…

I get you joke!
And respond in kind

Seera.5916:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

To be brutally honest, most people aren’t about fairness, but quickness in this game. As I mentioned before, gear is a choice everyone can make and equality of opportunity exists for the most part.

Referencing your unquoted bit, I’m pretty sure you understood my logic, but intentionally chose not to accept it. You showed your understanding when you brought up “filtering alternatives”.

You also don’t need to be so passive aggressive or personal. I’m not very elitist myself (I generally ask for 80 zerkers but do not check gear or traits), nor do I do many dungeons anymore. However, I absolutely support a group’s right to prioritize quickness over fairness even with the use of not-always-reliable filtering and profiling.

I understand this mentality as my previous proposals seek to rebalance the setups that allow multitudes of ideologies be competitive in the terms of quickness. I am not asking for everyone to slow down, I am asking for everyone the ability to be competitive as long as the dedication is as strong. Take a look at my previous suggestions that don’t have me wailing on the zerker meta from a personal opinion standpoint, I personally find them reasonable.

Flawed, but I believe my ideas to be in the right direction as far as making content that can be considered threatening but with its own forgiving systems.

I’m sorry but this isn’t some form of Anime – where the hero just wills his way to victory.
Wanting to be good doesn’t equal being good. Being good takes time, takes practice, knowledge, time investment and will.

Just because a group of bad players wants it very much to be just as fast as the group that has basically dedicated their in-game time to being great at the game doesn’t mean the game should change to give them similar clear times.

Just because a player who has 500 hours of gametime wants to be just as effective as someone who’s put in well over 2000 doesn’t mean that the game should accommodate that.

You want to be good? You want competitive clear times? Work for it. Gear for it. Learn the encounters. Learn your class. Practice. Execute flawlessly and then you’ll have it.

Why hand it out freely? Just because they want to and are doing the best they can?
Maybe sometimes – just like in life – your best isn’t good enough. My best wasn’t good enough when I first put on zerker gear but I worked towards it and made it work.

The game doesn’t have to change to accommodate for these players – they have to change adapt and improve.

You don’t understand my perspective.

I am saying if two people have 2000 hours of gameplay with the same skill ceiling but have different skillsets and statistical strengths, they should be able to succeed in roughly the same time as long as they are tackling the challenges using their advantages.

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Don’t we have the with Ele + Str Runes?

Harper.4173:

snip

I find it humorous you associate quick rewards with fun. If your only reason to play this game is so you can grind up a lot of gold quickly, why are you here?

Your previous comments have been gravely misrepresenting the positions being argued. No one is advocating that every single stat set has use in the meta and that everyone and everything can be successful if you just try hard enough. What is being advocated for is to have game that is based around stats and stat choice to have every stat have some kitten use and relevance in the game.

As it is now, everyone uses only a single stat combination if they want to be good. This isn’t healthy for the game, and it creates a very stale environment extremely quickly. People get bored, and they leave. You want to play with like minded people who have the same goals as you (such as farming gold quickly with little effort)? Then join a kittening guild. This isn’t the point. This isn’t about you.

This is about the game and if the state it is in is good or not. I, and many others, would argue it is not in a good state. When you have a game where there is no reason to use any other stats then the one you use currently because it is the best possible choice in every scenario, why even have other stats? Why give players the choice to be worse? This game shouldn’t have such a priority in stats, but it does, so you might as well make sure they all have use and importance.

There have been A LOT of complaints of how stale and lackluster the PvE meta is, and to an extent, how stale the game as a whole is. They want there to be more variety and choice. Are these people wrong? Do they all just need to “L2P”?

Let me ask you this. Do you think the game is in a good or positive state at the moment? Do you think it could be improved at all, especially in terms of variety in the prevalence of stats in team-oriented combat?

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

DaveGan.8065:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I honestly can’t give you any suggestion on filtering alternatives. I’ve always given everyone I met an honest chance, to get to know them, but I guess that is where I’m different.

To be brutally honest, most people aren’t about fairness, but quickness in this game. As I mentioned before, gear is a choice everyone can make and equality of opportunity exists for the most part.

Referencing your unquoted bit, I’m pretty sure you understood my logic, but intentionally chose not to accept it. You showed your understanding when you brought up “filtering alternatives”.

You also don’t need to be so passive aggressive or personal. I’m not very elitist myself (I generally ask for 80 zerkers but do not check gear or traits), nor do I do many dungeons anymore. However, I absolutely support a group’s right to prioritize quickness over fairness even with the use of not-always-reliable filtering and profiling.

I understand this mentality as my previous proposals seek to rebalance the setups that allow multitudes of ideologies be competitive in the terms of quickness. I am not asking for everyone to slow down, I am asking for everyone the ability to be competitive as long as the dedication is as strong. Take a look at my previous suggestions that don’t have me wailing on the zerker meta from a personal opinion standpoint, I personally find them reasonable.

Flawed, but I believe my ideas to be in the right direction as far as making content that can be considered threatening but with its own forgiving systems.

I’m sorry but this isn’t some form of Anime – where the hero just wills his way to victory.
Wanting to be good doesn’t equal being good. Being good takes time, takes practice, knowledge, time investment and will.

Just because a group of bad players wants it very much to be just as fast as the group that has basically dedicated their in-game time to being great at the game doesn’t mean the game should change to give them similar clear times.

Just because a player who has 500 hours of gametime wants to be just as effective as someone who’s put in well over 2000 doesn’t mean that the game should accommodate that.

You want to be good? You want competitive clear times? Work for it. Gear for it. Learn the encounters. Learn your class. Practice. Execute flawlessly and then you’ll have it.

Why hand it out freely? Just because they want to and are doing the best they can?
Maybe sometimes – just like in life – your best isn’t good enough. My best wasn’t good enough when I first put on zerker gear but I worked towards it and made it work.

The game doesn’t have to change to accommodate for these players – they have to change adapt and improve.

You don’t understand my perspective.

I am saying if two people have 2000 hours of gameplay with the same skill ceiling but have different skillsets and statistical strengths, they should be able to succeed in roughly the same time as long as they are tackling the challenges using their advantages.

And how do you implement that? You can’t.

The moment you create content that has alternate ways of being completed there will inevitably be one way that’s faster than the others : new meta created.

I still cannot comprehend how you think its possible to make all gear have an important use without creating forced roles which in turn results in more exclusivity.

Seriously, think about it. If we keep the current system and make sure all gear is viable to complete content then we will have some gear which is better than others for efficiency and some which is better for playing super safe. This is how it currently is. People like efficiency so they create LFG requirements to find like minded people who run the meta. The rest dont care so they dont make requirements. Id laugh if i saw a nomads only LFG. Theres no logical reason to run it but people can if they want to.

How are you going to make different gear types equal in this situation without forcing a new form of trinity? Theres no way tanky gear should kill things as fast as glassy gear. And theres no way glassy gear should have as much have as much passive defence as tanky gear. Its logically impossible. To make these things equal you have to remove gear stats completely. Which is how i believe it should of been. Its too late for that now though.

Loki.8793:

-stuff-

I find it humorous how you don’t understand that for me grinding up a lot of gold quickly is fun and that you can’t understand that not every player is like you and not every player plays and enjoys himself in the game the same ways you do.

Some like to chat and hang out – the social aspect.
Some like to explore and discover. Some like to farm and gain gold and riches. Get items and have multiple cosmetic items that are of great appeal and worth.

There’s nothing wrong with the way I play the game no matter how much you’d want to make it appear otherwise.

And when you’re talking about “every single stat having some use in the game” you fail to realize that they do.

The game has WvW. The game has PVE areas that require specific sets -like condi sets for Wurm or PVT armor that’s optimal for Teq.
Just because they’re not the meta for every encounter doesn’t mean they don’t have niche roles.

The “people get bored and they leave” argument doesn’t really hold out either.
It’s been two years and we’ve had the zerker meta pretty much since a few months after release. The game is still going strong and has a lot of players. So who left again? A few players who realized this isn’t the game they wanted it to be and had purchased the wrong game by mistake.

People also get bored and leave when you don’t add any more new dungeons ever since the game launched – but I see your concern isn’t actually with the game but with the zerker meta.

There are a lot of things they could do to improve player retention and the game experience that would be far easier to implement than “fixing” the zerker meta – which is both unnecessary and at best would be an incredibly controversial move which could literally break the game.

I have joined a guild – and your point is? Just because I’ve joined a guild ( or more guilds) I’m not allowed to choose the people I play with randomly?
Must I now abandon all methods of filtering the people I share in-game experiences with just because you say so?

I have a right to play this game in a manner that’s enjoyable to me. Maybe want to find similar people outside my guild in order to recruit or make new friends.
Just because I’ve joined one community of similar minded people does not bar my right to keep filtering for those I want to experience the game with.

Like I pointed out above – even in PVE zerker is not the best in every situation. And if you look at the game as a whole ( considering both WvW and sPVP) then what you’re saying becomes blatantly false.

Non-zerker sets in dungeons aren’t giving players the choice to be worse – they’re giving them the help they need to learn and improve their gameplay.

Again I’m stressing out that you can’t really have every set equally important while still making them different.

The one that offers best results ( regardless of which one that is) will become the most important one and everything else will be sub-par.

The game is stale – yes – I agree – but can’t you see why? It’s not the “zerker meta” – it’s the lack of content.

No new dungeons 2 years into the game.
Just 2 new maps that came this year with not a lot to do once completed.
No new fractals except for the recycled content they made using the LS season 1.

That’s the real problem. Players want something to do but there isn’t something to do at the moment.

Is this game in a good state? No – see mentions above. Also see topics related to rewards ( or lack there of ) or maybe legendary items being a complete grind ( with no skill required).

Do I think it could be improved at all, especially in terms of variety in the prevalence of stats in team-oriented combat?

Not really – You can’t really have variety when the whole concept of a meta is to use that thing that’s the best and ignore everything else.

Seera.5916:

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Using an example that I’m most knowledgeable in:

In City of Heroes, the most offensively weakest archetype was the Defender who was a primarily buffer/debuffer type with a secondary function of ranged damage. Yet when it came down to defeating the high tier content, the most powerful and capable archetype for that was also the Defender.

Sure, you could have your team of Scrappers and Brutes (melee DPS) go toe to toe with the same content, survive and kill, but you could also have your team of Defenders, Corruptors (basically slightly more offensive Defenders) and Controllers (basically Defenders but with more control type skills) do the exact same content, survive and kill. It was because they could debuff the foes into kittens (stacking debuffs) ontop of buffing your team to gods (stacking buffs) and bam.

So transferring the example to GW2, you’d have to first make boons and conditions rarer and not guaranteed for everybody without setting aside some of your spec to utilize them better. Then you make it so healing power (maybe changed to benevolent power or benevolence) that then improves the intensity of those boons (and on the other end condition mastery (replaces condition duration) for better utilization of condition and malevolence (replaces condition damage) for better intensity of conditions).

So you want to deal super high zerk damage, yeah, you can aim for power and healing power (benevolence) like you said, but without boon duration (boon mastery), you will only have a slim chance of even proc’ing those boons. It could be a new meta to have a full team of power and healing players, or maybe healing and boon teams….or half healing/boon and half condi/condition or some other kind of blend…but then you’ve already accomplished the mission! Now you’ve got some variety! And you really don’t need to follow the meta! If zerk still demolishes stuff (just slightly slower because now they don’t have as much fury and might) there’s nothing stopping you from doing that!

Technically there’s nothing stopping us from using PVT or healing build teams either, but we’re thinking hypothetically about changes, not the status quo.

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Using an example that I’m most knowledgeable in:

In City of Heroes, the most offensively weakest archetype was the Defender who was a primarily buffer/debuffer type with a secondary function of ranged damage. Yet when it came down to defeating the high tier content, the most powerful and capable archetype for that was also the Defender.

Sure, you could have your team of Scrappers and Brutes (melee DPS) go toe to toe with the same content, survive and kill, but you could also have your team of Defenders, Corruptors (basically slightly more offensive Defenders) and Controllers (basically Defenders but with more control type skills) do the exact same content, survive and kill. It was because they could debuff the foes into kittens (stacking debuffs) ontop of buffing your team to gods (stacking buffs) and bam.

Can i ask something. How is that any different to how it is in GW2? You can use defensive and balanced builds and defeat bosses with them. Berserker isnt required. Its just faster. And it should be.

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Using an example that I’m most knowledgeable in:

In City of Heroes, the most offensively weakest archetype was the Defender who was a primarily buffer/debuffer type with a secondary function of ranged damage. Yet when it came down to defeating the high tier content, the most powerful and capable archetype for that was also the Defender.

Sure, you could have your team of Scrappers and Brutes (melee DPS) go toe to toe with the same content, survive and kill, but you could also have your team of Defenders, Corruptors (basically slightly more offensive Defenders) and Controllers (basically Defenders but with more control type skills) do the exact same content, survive and kill. It was because they could debuff the foes into kittens (stacking debuffs) ontop of buffing your team to gods (stacking buffs) and bam.

Can i ask something. How is that any different to how it is in GW2? You can use defensive and balanced builds and defeat bosses with them. Berserker isnt required. Its just faster. And it should be.

The hypothetical was asked “so a healing power and boon spec should be able to clear content the same as a power and condi spec. How?” and I answered it.

You say berserker is faster and it should be. I agree, berserker spec should have the highest and fastest personal damage capabilities because it’s all burst damage. But then that has nothing to do with buffing a team with high might and fury, getting tons of on-hit and on-crit procs, mitigating all the damage with conditions/dodges/blocks/reflects/etc. You’re stating that zerk should kill the fastest. From a hypothetical standpoint, though, I’m starting to agree with others that say zerkers shouldn’t get their cake and eat it too, not when other specs only get a small slice of cake and aren’t allowed to eat.

Why? Thats what makes GW2 different and special. Changing that completely ruins what makes GW2’s combat unique.

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Using an example that I’m most knowledgeable in:

In City of Heroes, the most offensively weakest archetype was the Defender who was a primarily buffer/debuffer type with a secondary function of ranged damage. Yet when it came down to defeating the high tier content, the most powerful and capable archetype for that was also the Defender.

Sure, you could have your team of Scrappers and Brutes (melee DPS) go toe to toe with the same content, survive and kill, but you could also have your team of Defenders, Corruptors (basically slightly more offensive Defenders) and Controllers (basically Defenders but with more control type skills) do the exact same content, survive and kill. It was because they could debuff the foes into kittens (stacking debuffs) ontop of buffing your team to gods (stacking buffs) and bam.

Can i ask something. How is that any different to how it is in GW2? You can use defensive and balanced builds and defeat bosses with them. Berserker isnt required. Its just faster. And it should be.

The hypothetical was asked “so a healing power and boon spec should be able to clear content the same as a power and condi spec. How?” and I answered it.

You say berserker is faster and it should be. I agree, berserker spec should have the highest and fastest personal damage capabilities because it’s all burst damage. But then that has nothing to do with buffing a team with high might and fury, getting tons of on-hit and on-crit procs, mitigating all the damage with conditions/dodges/blocks/reflects/etc. You’re stating that zerk should kill the fastest. From a hypothetical standpoint, though, I’m starting to agree with others that say zerkers shouldn’t get their cake and eat it too, not when other specs only get a small slice of cake and aren’t allowed to eat.

I can’t help but play the semantics game for a second.

You say “Specs”, no no no

Zerk is a gear choice, not a spec.

If an Ele wants to optimally stack might and fury they’re going to get strength runes, and run a scepter build that relies on Lightning Hammer to do it’s damage, which has quite a few drawbacks. If you execute the rotation properly you can do good damage, if you can’t… you’er stuck doing poor damage but stacking might (if you can at least manage that). Optimal damage would be staff assuming someone else is covering the might.

Same with Phalanx, you’re still going to wear zerk, but you are sacrificing quite a bit of damage to cap off the might damage.

Look at guard, you rarely get a chance to run full damage because it’s simply stupid to not take the defensive traits and skills as that’s your forte.

There are full damage, full support, and whatever variation of Specs, there’s just either offensive or defensive gear.

spoj.9672:

Why? Thats what makes GW2 different and special. Changing that completely ruins what makes GW2’s combat unique.

Changing isn’t bad. Don’t fear change. Not that I’m pressing for change, but what the vibe I’m getting from you is anger and fear for the sake of ignorance. Why?

And what can make something different and special can also be what makes it unfair and unfun or unbalanced or flawed. Again, not that I’m advocating the notion that GW2 is unfair/unbalanced and something flawed can still have its charms. Basically what I’m saying is, things can always be made better. Ignorance and stubbornness are only speedbumps to progress.

Jerus.4350:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Using an example that I’m most knowledgeable in:

In City of Heroes, the most offensively weakest archetype was the Defender who was a primarily buffer/debuffer type with a secondary function of ranged damage. Yet when it came down to defeating the high tier content, the most powerful and capable archetype for that was also the Defender.

Sure, you could have your team of Scrappers and Brutes (melee DPS) go toe to toe with the same content, survive and kill, but you could also have your team of Defenders, Corruptors (basically slightly more offensive Defenders) and Controllers (basically Defenders but with more control type skills) do the exact same content, survive and kill. It was because they could debuff the foes into kittens (stacking debuffs) ontop of buffing your team to gods (stacking buffs) and bam.

Can i ask something. How is that any different to how it is in GW2? You can use defensive and balanced builds and defeat bosses with them. Berserker isnt required. Its just faster. And it should be.

The hypothetical was asked “so a healing power and boon spec should be able to clear content the same as a power and condi spec. How?” and I answered it.

You say berserker is faster and it should be. I agree, berserker spec should have the highest and fastest personal damage capabilities because it’s all burst damage. But then that has nothing to do with buffing a team with high might and fury, getting tons of on-hit and on-crit procs, mitigating all the damage with conditions/dodges/blocks/reflects/etc. You’re stating that zerk should kill the fastest. From a hypothetical standpoint, though, I’m starting to agree with others that say zerkers shouldn’t get their cake and eat it too, not when other specs only get a small slice of cake and aren’t allowed to eat.

I can’t help but play the semantics game for a second.

You say “Specs”, no no no

Zerk is a gear choice, not a spec.

If an Ele wants to optimally stack might and fury they’re going to get strength runes, and run a scepter build that relies on Lightning Hammer to do it’s damage, which has quite a few drawbacks. If you execute the rotation properly you can do good damage, if you can’t… you’er stuck doing poor damage but stacking might (if you can at least manage that). Optimal damage would be staff assuming someone else is covering the might.

Same with Phalanx, you’re still going to wear zerk, but you are sacrificing quite a bit of damage to cap off the might damage.

Look at guard, you rarely get a chance to run full damage because it’s simply stupid to not take the defensive traits and skills as that’s your forte.

There are full damage, full support, and whatever variation of Specs, there’s just either offensive or defensive gear.

Well perhaps that is the issue the OP wishes to target, hm?

Perhaps it’s that gear seems to supersedes spec far more than it should? And that gear tends to lock you into limited strategies and priorities? Perhaps the idea of simply adjusting what the stats do isn’t the only thing that could be proposed here?

Harper.4173:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

That is the only way to break zerker.

How far the developers go in that direction is up to them.

And what will this accomplish? If zerker is “broken” people will make the next best thing in terms of dps meta.
It might be Knight’s, it might be Cavalier’s. Probably a mix of the two.

What will you accomplish? You’ll have changed “zerk only ping gear” into “knights only ping gear”.

Is that better?

People that keep suggesting that Anet build encounters to “break zerker” don’t really understand what a meta is, or why a meta is meta.

Ultimately the only change that will come is making the same encounters we’ve been doing for two years last longer and become even more tedious.

Edit : also maha makes another great point. That kind of opponent and encounter is not fun to play against. Enjoy stomping the casuals into not paying the gem store again.

Of course if you change the way the fights in this game work, you are going to create a new meta. That meta could be, like you said a specific type of gear run by all players ….OR (what would be the more likely scenario) people could ask for one or two dedicated ‘tanky’ or ‘support’ players instead of a full zerker (or knights, or cavaliers, etc)

or condi dmg players.

We have already seen Arenanet implement foes with extremely high toughness but low HP at the Triple Trouble world event, enforcing a condition damage meta.

…so what is wrong with including more foes like this inside a dungeon or in other areas of the game?

I don’t see why you are so adamant about keeping the meta the way things are right now in the game.

It is ironic that someone who wants to accuse players about not knowing what a meta is, fails to understand one of the basic principles of metas in MMO’s.

What is considered ‘meta’ is always subject to change as the game itself changes.

Players are asking for Arenanet to make changes and fix underlying issues, in order to use the remainder of the combat system in Guild Wars 2 (which is actually one of the best I’ve ever seen in any MMO when you ignore the stack in the corner tactic) and actually fight foes the way the developers intended.

I don’t see how anyone can see stacking in a corner for almost every single fight in the game can stay fresh after two years.

…and in case you are wondering.
I main a zerker warrior.
I have 11 toons, 8 of which are full zerker
and I am all about min/maxing.

It would be a huge pain in the kitten for me to re-gear all of these toons if a new meta were to come about….. but guess what?

I enjoy fights where players can’t just stack on top of the boss without dying because the fights involve skill instead of lame tactics that are abusing broken combat mechanics.

I want to see a change in the meta, because as it sits right now, everyone just wants to PPF all the things, and this is so extremely dull and boring. I want something with a bit more dimension than “Get in a corner and do as much damage as possible.”

I enjoy playing the game Arenanet wants us to play “utilizing all those wide open spaces” as stated in the manifesto, but only the tiniest fragment of the game actually was made that way because of the current LOS combat mechanic tactic.

I am asking for a change, not because I don’t like the meta, or I think the meta is inefficient. I am asking for a change because it is too easy. There is no challenge.

Enemies attack way too slowly, deal way too much damage, and foes never punish players for all stacking on top of eachother.

Every little thing that can be abused, is and always will be until it is changed.

Stop fearing the change in meta. Anet never intended for us to play the game this way, and they are slowly implementing changes to stop us all from stacking in the same gear and facerolling.

Leo G.4501:

Jerus.4350:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

So someone who specs in healing power and boons should be able to complete content at the same rate as someone who specs for power and condition damage?

Boons would have be really really really powerful.

But then those who spec for power and boons would then be the meta, wouldn’kitten Increase base damage and those really powerful boons will just multiply that.

Using an example that I’m most knowledgeable in:

In City of Heroes, the most offensively weakest archetype was the Defender who was a primarily buffer/debuffer type with a secondary function of ranged damage. Yet when it came down to defeating the high tier content, the most powerful and capable archetype for that was also the Defender.

Sure, you could have your team of Scrappers and Brutes (melee DPS) go toe to toe with the same content, survive and kill, but you could also have your team of Defenders, Corruptors (basically slightly more offensive Defenders) and Controllers (basically Defenders but with more control type skills) do the exact same content, survive and kill. It was because they could debuff the foes into kittens (stacking debuffs) ontop of buffing your team to gods (stacking buffs) and bam.

Can i ask something. How is that any different to how it is in GW2? You can use defensive and balanced builds and defeat bosses with them. Berserker isnt required. Its just faster. And it should be.

The hypothetical was asked “so a healing power and boon spec should be able to clear content the same as a power and condi spec. How?” and I answered it.

You say berserker is faster and it should be. I agree, berserker spec should have the highest and fastest personal damage capabilities because it’s all burst damage. But then that has nothing to do with buffing a team with high might and fury, getting tons of on-hit and on-crit procs, mitigating all the damage with conditions/dodges/blocks/reflects/etc. You’re stating that zerk should kill the fastest. From a hypothetical standpoint, though, I’m starting to agree with others that say zerkers shouldn’t get their cake and eat it too, not when other specs only get a small slice of cake and aren’t allowed to eat.

I can’t help but play the semantics game for a second.

You say “Specs”, no no no

Zerk is a gear choice, not a spec.

If an Ele wants to optimally stack might and fury they’re going to get strength runes, and run a scepter build that relies on Lightning Hammer to do it’s damage, which has quite a few drawbacks. If you execute the rotation properly you can do good damage, if you can’t… you’er stuck doing poor damage but stacking might (if you can at least manage that). Optimal damage would be staff assuming someone else is covering the might.

Same with Phalanx, you’re still going to wear zerk, but you are sacrificing quite a bit of damage to cap off the might damage.

Look at guard, you rarely get a chance to run full damage because it’s simply stupid to not take the defensive traits and skills as that’s your forte.

There are full damage, full support, and whatever variation of Specs, there’s just either offensive or defensive gear.

Well perhaps that is the issue the OP wishes to target, hm?

Perhaps it’s that gear seems to supersedes spec far more than it should? And that gear tends to lock you into limited strategies and priorities? Perhaps the idea of simply adjusting what the stats do isn’t the only thing that could be proposed here?

It doesn’t supersede the specs, it’s simply an element of it. Zerk is simply the start of a DPS build, you gain a LOT of damage through trait/sigil/rune/weapon choices, but with that you can also gain a lot of support as well.

Again, Gear is simply general offense vs defense. Why is that a problem? Could it be more complex? sure, but then we’d need more stats than just what controls offense and defense, we’d need a boon duration set (givers can hardly be called that honestly, it’s crap), we’d need some stat that controls how long utilities last and all that stuff, in other words we’d need to remake the game…

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Why? Thats what makes GW2 different and special. Changing that completely ruins what makes GW2’s combat unique.

Changing isn’t bad. Don’t fear change. Not that I’m pressing for change, but what the vibe I’m getting from you is anger and fear for the sake of ignorance. Why?

And what can make something different and special can also be what makes it unfair and unfun or unbalanced or flawed. Again, not that I’m advocating the notion that GW2 is unfair/unbalanced and something flawed can still have its charms. Basically what I’m saying is, things can always be made better. Ignorance and stubbornness are only speedbumps to progress.

Heres the problem. You think im afraid of change because im being ignorant and stubborn (I find this quite amusing btw). Its quite the opposite. Ive thought about this topic a lot. Every single suggestion ive seen has led to me reaching the conclusion that it will not give you what you want. It will create more exclusion in the game. Or it will ruin and irritate players that are happy with the current format.

Im not afraid of change. Im afraid of change to the core combat system. Because currently its in a good place. There are definately some tweaks and balance issues to resolve (condition damage for example). But overall its fairly solid. The problem lies mainly in the content. Currently the game doesnt have content which properly compliments the combat system. More advanced and complex AI in encounters would be a massive improvement. It would also lead to more diversity in your average pug group.

If the difficulty of the game is increased the majority of players will have a hard time running full glass. So they will adapt and switch to more balanced builds. The claim that theres no diversity will disappear. Im sure you realise that pugs will be encouraged to run specialised defensive/control/debuffer roles if the encounters become more complex and gain skills similar to the players.

Jerus.4350:

It doesn’t supersede the specs, it’s simply an element of it.

I would say it supersedes the spec partly for the reasons I stated. You’re going to need a better argument to persuade me than “it doesn’t”.

Jerus.4350:

Zerk is simply the start of a DPS build, you gain a LOT of damage through trait/sigil/rune/weapon choices, but with that you can also gain a lot of support as well.

Well does the reverse work? Can I gear for support and take offensive traits/sigils/runes to get the same result as gearing offensively and taking support traits/sigil/runes?

Jerus.4350:

Again, Gear is simply general offense vs defense. Why is that a problem? Could it be more complex? sure, but then we’d need more stats than just what controls offense and defense, we’d need a boon duration set (givers can hardly be called that honestly, it’s crap), we’d need some stat that controls how long utilities last and all that stuff, in other words we’d need to remake the game…

That might be a strawman. Why try to introduce more stats that control more offense and defense when we haven’t discussed and elaborated on what the current stats and traits can contribute to the idea? Hell, it completely ignores the proposition that the defensive stats should do more than they do as stated in the OP.

spoj.9672:

Heres the problem. You think im afraid of change because im being ignorant and stubborn (I find this quite amusing btw). Its quite the opposite. Ive thought about this topic a lot. Every single suggestion ive seen has led to me reaching the conclusion that it will not give you what you want. It will create more exclusion in the game. Or it will ruin and irritate players that are happy with the current format.

If you’re so versed with the proposition, why not counter the problems they bring up point for point? I’m not saying you’re ignorant and stubborn because you fear change, I’m saying you’re ignorant and stubborn because you refuse to discuss change. You just sound like you’re angry and fearful of change which isn’t really discussing anything, just rambling and derailing.

spoj.9672:

Im not afraid of change. Im afraid of change to the core combat system. Because currently its in a good place. There are definately some tweaks and balance issues to resolve (condition damage for example). But overall its fairly solid. The problem lies mainly in the content. Currently the game doesnt have content which properly compliments the combat system. More advanced and complex AI in encounters would be a massive improvement. It would also lead to more diversity in your average pug group.

I’m in the same boat. Not being afraid of changes to the core combat system though, but fear of stagnation. I’ve grown bored of the game several times. I healthily combat this boredom by taking (long) breaks and bouncing around ideas for additions to the game. No idea is too outrageous to discuss, it only takes time and a little interest in the subject. Do you have time? Do you have interest? Then discuss! Counter the points, don’t just deny they’d work!

Personally, I’d rather discuss things like adding new weapons and skills to the game to give players more to swing around. But guess what? People fear that too! Because balance is so tenuous that any little addition like a proliferated mainhand weapon could upset the meta in such a horrible fashion it could caused irreversible damage!

And I say, so what? You’re not doing damage by discussing hypotheticals.

Leo G.4501:

snip

Your frustration is going toward the wrong person.

spoj has a group he regularly plays with. In fact, most of us who are “against” this change have people we regularly play with.

We will be the first to adapt to any changes.

Many others will be left behind until you see our guides or encounter us.

We will adapt to whatever new meta comes up.

If the efficiency-for-safety tradeoff gets disrupted in favor of safety, we will require even more than just meta “gear” when we do go to LFG. It may be identify utilities/traits, it may be minimum AP, it may be specific classes only, but any specializations or roles will have us checking you even harder to make sure you can perform them adequately.

We “filthy elitists” cried about FGS for maybe a few hours following the nerf. Meanwhile there are many AC parties disbanding at the Spider Queen because they still haven’t learned to adapt.

We have all the leverage. We can and will adapt faster than everyone else.

And, we’re here warning you that what your ideals and your proposals are not consistent with each other.

Most of you are against the concept of “meta”, not the concept of “berserker”

(edit: formatting)

…

“take the place of” There’s the definition of supersede. If you want to insist that gear choices negate the need for good choices in the other areas, well… go ahead, I feel no need to convince you, I’m simply making statements that I assumed would be met with more than attempts to deflect

No the reverse does not work in regards to trait choices and gear choices. You have 2 options for gear, offense or defense, with slight variations on how those ends are met. (crit/power/condi and health/mitigation/healing).

Same thing as the OP said just a little different, point is you’d need effects that did more than just made yourself tankier for non offensive stats to be worthwhile past being a crutch for imperfect play.

As for your responses to spoj… I simply can’t support the idea of major reworks to core concepts years into a game. Sorry, seen that backfire and it’s not fun (RIP DCUO). And this exact same topic comes up weekly, not everyone really wants to repeatedly discuss the options, at a certain point it’s talking to a wall. People have a dream of what the game could be, and that’s fine, but actually changing it into that… we’re talking a major overhaul of the entire game… not only is it not going to happen but if it did I doubt it’d go over smoothly. Like you said, we can’t even get weapon additions and people think we can get a rework of the entire system? LOL I enjoy the core mechanics of the game, I just want more challenging content for me to use it in.

DaveGan.8065:

Your frustration is going toward the wrong person.

Not really frustration. I’m more attempting to wring out some discussion about these ideas. It really isn’t even a debate as it feels like one side simply refuses to acknowledge the other side.

DaveGan.8065:

We “filthy elitists” cried about FGS for maybe a few hours following the nerf. Meanwhile there are many AC parties disbanding at the Spider Queen because they still haven’t learned to adapt.

We have all the leverage. We can and will adapt faster than everyone else.

And, we’re here warning you that what your ideals and your proposals are not consistent with each other.

Most of you are against the concept of “meta”, not the concept of “berserker”

(edit: formatting)

I guess I one-up that? I had my fun with FGS and my berserker builds (my main is Elementalist too). I didn’t even wait for it to get nerfed though. I stopped putting it in my elite bar in dungeons for the very reason it was getting exploited. I tend to shy away from groups using ‘short-cuts’ or ‘shady tactics’ because they’re boring. Sure, I’ll join in and do my share of stacking to see how it’s done and get some reward but then I play to enjoy myself. Beating down defenseless NPCs isn’t very fun and while roaming in WvW or doing hotjoins has its challenges, they feel like they lose some of their shine without a ‘group’ to do them with and I tend to hoof it alone the majority of the time.

You may have all the leverage, but I don’t need leverage

To try and hold the ‘lesser community’ hostage as your counter argument is egotistical, though.

PS: don’t try to tell me what I oppose. I’m telling you, I don’t. I’m not even backing this idea as something that should happen but things could be better than they are.

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Heres the problem. You think im afraid of change because im being ignorant and stubborn (I find this quite amusing btw). Its quite the opposite. Ive thought about this topic a lot. Every single suggestion ive seen has led to me reaching the conclusion that it will not give you what you want. It will create more exclusion in the game. Or it will ruin and irritate players that are happy with the current format.

If you’re so versed with the proposition, why not counter the problems they bring up point for point? I’m not saying you’re ignorant and stubborn because you fear change, I’m saying you’re ignorant and stubborn because you refuse to discuss change. You just sound like you’re angry and fearful of change which isn’t really discussing anything, just rambling and derailing.

spoj.9672:

Im not afraid of change. Im afraid of change to the core combat system. Because currently its in a good place. There are definately some tweaks and balance issues to resolve (condition damage for example). But overall its fairly solid. The problem lies mainly in the content. Currently the game doesnt have content which properly compliments the combat system. More advanced and complex AI in encounters would be a massive improvement. It would also lead to more diversity in your average pug group.

I’m in the same boat. Not being afraid of changes to the core combat system though, but fear of stagnation. I’ve grown bored of the game several times. I healthily combat this boredom by taking (long) breaks and bouncing around ideas for additions to the game. No idea is too outrageous to discuss, it only takes time and a little interest in the subject. Do you have time? Do you have interest? Then discuss! Counter the points, don’t just deny they’d work!

Personally, I’d rather discuss things like adding new weapons and skills to the game to give players more to swing around. But guess what? People fear that too! Because balance is so tenuous that any little addition like a proliferated mainhand weapon could upset the meta in such a horrible fashion it could caused irreversible damage!

And I say, so what? You’re not doing damage by discussing hypotheticals.

I have discussed these suggestions many times before. They all follow the same general ideas. At this point i thought it was reasonable for people to work out the flaws for themselves. It seems most are incapable which i find kind of depressing. And im tired of repeating myself. And actually i have already countered the suggestions in a general sense, theres no need to counter each point when they can all be countered with the same logic. What part of “forcing specialised roles will cause exclusion” do you not understand?.

I also get bored of the game. And havent really played actively in months. But its not the combat system thats at fault for me. Its the lack of new content that suits me and the lack of new skills, weapons and traits to add flavour and shake up balance. The combat system is the reason i keep coming back. Its the best ive experienced in any game and its spoilt me. Its only fault is the lack of variety in skills and choice per class (I miss gw1 for this).

Final question. Do you agree with me that new challenging content would be a better and more realistic solution? At this point this topic is completely pointless because we full well know that anet wont revamp their entire combat system.

I always find it amusing when discussions like this about core game design get shunted to Profession Balance.

I’m with spoj.

• Every suggestion I’ve seen to “fix” things have been movements in the direction of greater specialization, which would only become diversity if the specializations are required. Once they’re required, there would indeed be greater exclusion, which is directly opposite what Anet attempted to achieve with the current system.
• New skills, weapons, etc. and new, challenging content could be used to shake things up. Well, that and fix the complete kitten-up that is condition damage in group and large-scale PvE.

spoj.9672:

I have discussed these suggestions many times before. They all follow the same general ideas. At this point i thought it was reasonable for people to work out the flaws for themselves. It seems most are incapable which i find kind of depressing. And im tired of repeating myself. And actually i have already countered the suggestions in a general sense, theres no need to counter each point when they can all be countered with the same logic. What part of “forcing specialised roles will cause exclusion” do you not understand?.

Fair enough. I take back my accusations of fear, ignorance and the lot. My apologies.

But I still want to discuss the idea if people are still adamant about posting in the thread.

As for the ‘forcing specialized roles causes exclusion’, well what if everyone can fill in any of these specialized roles? Sure, there will always be the people that want X profession using Y role with Z group make-up, but nothing’s going to change that. Dipping into City of Heroes again, no, not every archetype could play every role, but it didn’t matter who did what role. You could accomplish any mission with any group make-up. You just work with what you get most of the times very much like GW2 actually, you tended to just look out for yourself and aid the group in whatever specialized way your archetype could…BUT, there were also roles and certain roles gave different benefits to a group but also lacked benefits other roles and achetypes provided. You didn’t need particular roles to be successful, you needed to conform your strategies to work with what you had.

In this hypothetical idea for change, that would be the goal I’d aim for: you can choose your profession and spec type and you’d be able to overcome the game’s PvE obstacles with any combination, just in different ways.

I also get bored of the game. And havent really played actively in months. But its not the combat system thats at fault for me. Its the lack of new content that suits me and the lack of new skills, weapons and traits to add flavour and shake up balance.

Same. Although I did log in and play within the last month if only to role up a new character and play around with it. I still haven’t played a Necromancer so their skills are relatively fresh to me. Still, I’d very much like more skills and weapons to shake up the game more. Chatting on forums is also an entertaining pastime.

IndigoSundown.5419:

• Every suggestion I’ve seen to “fix” things have been movements in the direction of greater specialization, which would only become diversity if the specializations are required. Once they’re required, there would indeed be greater exclusion, which is directly opposite what Anet attempted to achieve with the current system.

+1

Couldnt of put it better myself.

Leo G.4501:

As for the ‘forcing specialized roles causes exclusion’, well what if everyone can fill in any of these specialized roles?

Well the only way to avoid exclusion with that is by doing what we currently have. Which means its not tied to gear. And so the problem has been resolved by not doing anything. Like i said before its the content which doesnt compliment the system enough.

We do already provide various roles within the meta. But people see berserker and turn a blind eye to everything else thats going on. And the content isnt hard enough in most cases to over specialise. There are some exceptions, but those are mainly in fractals. Which just shows that anet really can create content that compliments the system when they actually try.

It’s pretty funny.

The zerker elitist crowd can be annoying but at least they keep to their own runs. If that kind of crap happens in a run not explicitly labeled a speedrun, I will not hesitate to kick people for lecturing others on how to play. Then you have the anti-zerker crowd that tries to change the game and enforce upon everyone their own made up rules about what requires skills and variety and act all surprised when people don’t see a problem.

Given I run like 5 dungeons a month or less, I could really care less about what is meta or what changes since I have 6 characters with stat combos of all kinds. So no, this fear and ignorance stuff is mere intellectual dishonesty that is suited more for political debates. In fact it’d just be better on me because I suck at dodging anyways.

Other stat sets are not worthless. They can be used for a stepping stone when you’re learning a new dungeon. It’s the same reason why we have blues,greens, and yellows. Then once you’re done with that, you can use them in wvw too.

I mean just look at any old school platformer speedruns where the players ignore the powerups and stuff. Does that mean the powerups should be removed from the game because speedrunners don’t need them?

This is a fundamental difference of perspective. I enjoy investing and adding a touch and a dash here and there to my builds without having to change my gear radically.

So yes, I play the way I want, and that happens to be zerker in dungeons. My zerker guardian and engineer provide lots of buffs and healing while outputting lots of damage. It lets me have it all, and that is fun. The price is that I have to stay awake and have to learn the content. I can get better, and I feel I should change my gameplay to get better rather than the game changing for me. A group that wants to tank out the damage can do so, and safely so— it just takes longer. If everyone agrees to it, then so what? Are you less of a human for finishing CoF a few minutes later when even a non-zerker group can finish that in less than 10 min anyways?

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

As for the ‘forcing specialized roles causes exclusion’, well what if everyone can fill in any of these specialized roles?

Well the only way to avoid exclusion with that is by doing what we currently have. Which means its not tied to gear. And so the problem has been resolved by not doing anything. Like i said before its the content which doesnt compliment the system.

Haha, no.

It is tied to gear because the idea revolves around gear as that is your primary source of stats.

You could have specialized roles in the sense that “a support thief” would be interchangeable with a “support warrior” a “support elementalist”, etc. What we currently have is closer (to the untrained eye) to spamming skills = profit.

And I also agree that the content doesn’t compliment the system. I’ve lobbied for changes to dungeons so long ago…some improvements but a lot of work is still needed.

I’m still entertaining the idea of the OP here, though. Thinking about it with an open mind, I think I can counter most arguments you may have with it.

We do already provide various roles within the meta. But people see berserker and turn a blind eye to everything else thats going on. And the content isnt hard enough in most cases to over specialise. There are some exceptions, but those are mainly in fractals. Which just shows that anet really can create content that compliments the system when they actually try.

Well, that the content isn’t hard enough to warrant these roles is likely part of what would be addressed with the splitting of specializations. I think the point of the idea is, you can have a spec (gear, runes, etc and all) to output good damage and keep yourself alive for the most part, but most beyond that would require steeper sacrifices to obtain. The less you can do, the more you rely on a teammate to throw in their 2cents to get you where you all need to be.

So my entire post got deleted and I spent a good 3 hours trying to make it sound as clear as good as possible but oh well. Will do my best to rewrite.

Lupi is a difficult one to address so I’ll use a fictional example.

Let’s take a giant hallroom with different levels with various optimal paths forward to a door encased in a force field.

The hallway is not only littered with cover but tons of mobs in strategic positions and an array of siege engines to prevent you from moving forward. You are given a multitude of options to get an EMP det pack to the door whether by escorting an npc around the complex as you kill targets, escort a golem to the door while MICHEAL BAY ensues all around you as support, control, and key damage is required to ensure the safety of the golem, or you can have a player character take up the det pack responsibility and go whichever route, the shortest route(going straight) is the most damaging and dangerous where the tactical routes allow for high precision power to be used effectively and safely while evading siege engine line of fire on occasion. The det pack is sensitive to extreme displacement so teleportation would detonate it prematurely as well as going into downed state.

While using the help of the NPC, players are able to function at full efficiency, at full power, to deliver maximum blows to targets in opposition. The NPC stays safely behind while smart use of cover and objects are a must with melee and ranged interplay. Kill key targets that bar the NPC’s path to get her to move up faster, deal with side snipers before they can land any hits by either killing or using shields. The best defense is a good offense, a key selling point in High Power groups. Tacticool awareness is still a must as cannons and ballistas attempt to peg people out of cover.

While using the golem rig, a force field is generated akin to CoE story. Instead of guns to push things back, you need the best in line of defense and support and damage. The golem’s speed can be throttled with his faster speeds being counter-played by more mobs coming out at a time. In this scenario the players can choose best how to support the golem whether with tons of boons and healing, lots of control, and damage thrown out at key targets that can do devastating damage to the golem. If the golem breaks down? the det pack detonates and the force field drops, everyone gonna die.

Don’t like dealing with NPCs? let’s get a player carrying the detpack. While equipped, players will receive a penalty to speed. The encounter is changed to sort of a psuedo hybrid of both previous examples and spirit watch as more mobs come out at a time as the det pack gets closer to the door(We will keep in mind that the det pack is on the player’s back akin to CM med kit, allowing the quarterback to full function in combat outside of movement speed). Good bunking is required, good cooperation with the team is required as you’ll soon see 2 thieves double back stabbing him while a ranger pelts from the ridge as mobs will be trying to take down your quarter back.

Stealth is given a more in depth active combat approach as the opposition will take active measures on the field when stealth is successfully initiated. Arrow cart shots litter the entire scene, cannons fire randomly everywhere, mobs start to patrol, lay down anti-personal measures to bring players back into combat.

This is a very small example but the idea is there. Of course active balancing of the content needs to happen to ensure that all paths of the fork have competitive clear times in a speed clear environment but I personal think it would be awesome if you start seeing speed clear records knocking each other out and then when you see their approaches they are like completely different with different setups(Ideally).

In this example approach, Full Power Groups are still viable, they are not blown to pieces but the meta mentality changes to accept multiple avenues of approach as long as the dedication is parallel. Intermingling of tactics used in spvp, wvw, and pve can unify the community further(possibly), PvErs are more likely to approach sPvP and be familiar with practices of bunking, smart bursts, and rotations and so forth.

Oh and I just thought of a way that magi stats (Vitality, Precision, Healing Power) can used effectively in a build.

Necromancer: Blood Magic grand master trait, Verata’s aggression. Critical Hits in death shroud will cause AoE healing for party members close to the selected target. Active player healer akin to Trinity in Warframe. Thoughts?

… That’s creating all new content, we’re talking about adjusting all current content to not fit the zerker meta. How do you do that without completely remaking the entire game?

And I can tell you even after reading the first paragraph, I’m not into that. Restricting the use of abilities doesn’t make things fun. And reliance on NPCs… no thanks. The idea as a whole, while might be fun to you, doesn’t sound fun to me, it sounds gimmicky and annoying.

I appreciate you taking the time to create an example but that’s just my honest opinion on it. Look at Aetherpath, how often is it run? Gimmicks simply aren’t as replayable as the core mechanics, at least IMO.

Zerker works so well for pve because the ai is straight up scripted, dumb, and predictable. Without a real challenge, there is no reason to use anything else. If they added some REAL ai, then zerk gear would be much harder to use. Imagine pve enemies that can dodge, use group tactics, are unpredictable, and are basically like fighting a group of pvp players. Doubt it will happen though because people love steamrolling pve, and feeling all Godlike…

Jerus.4350:

… That’s creating all new content, we’re talking about adjusting all current content to not fit the zerker meta. How do you do that without completely remaking the entire game?

And I can tell you even after reading the first paragraph, I’m not into that. Restricting the use of abilities doesn’t make things fun. And reliance on NPCs… no thanks. The idea as a whole, while might be fun to you, doesn’t sound fun to me, it sounds gimmicky and annoying.

I appreciate you taking the time to create an example but that’s just my honest opinion on it. Look at Aetherpath, how often is it run? Gimmicks simply aren’t as replayable as the core mechanics, at least IMO.

As you read further you’ll see options without NPC reliance. Regardless this is an arbitrary example to give an idea as to how content can be layered or balanced to play into various strengths.

My goal is to allow other options to flourish without taking away systems that people are already used to, rather to add systems that allow other ideals a chance of fruition as long as the dedication is behind it. No one likes having things taken away from them and I don’t either.

EDIT: and content that challenges forces at all fronts so regardless of what setup you play, you need to be exceptional at what you do whether its straight power builds, condis, bunker setups, or support oriented, not even support is given a free pass to victory as my ideologies of support builds would demand as much active play as damage oriented play.

Wooden Potatoe’s suggestions as far as character sheet rebalancing takes things away from people, whenever I got something taken away it got real irritating real fast. As far as those ideals are concerned, nerf bats can go swing somewhere else.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Jerus.4350:

… That’s creating all new content, we’re talking about adjusting all current content to not fit the zerker meta. How do you do that without completely remaking the entire game?

And I can tell you even after reading the first paragraph, I’m not into that. Restricting the use of abilities doesn’t make things fun. And reliance on NPCs… no thanks. The idea as a whole, while might be fun to you, doesn’t sound fun to me, it sounds gimmicky and annoying.

I appreciate you taking the time to create an example but that’s just my honest opinion on it. Look at Aetherpath, how often is it run? Gimmicks simply aren’t as replayable as the core mechanics, at least IMO.

As you read further you’ll see options without NPC reliance. Regardless this is an arbitrary example to give an idea as to how content can be layered or balanced to play into various strengths.

My goal is to allow other options to flourish without taking away systems that people are already used to, rather to add systems that allow other ideals a chance of fruition as long as the dedication is behind it. No one likes having things taken away from them and I don’t either.

Wooden Potatoe’s suggestions as far as character sheet rebalancing takes things away from people, whenever I got something taken away it got real irritating real fast. As far as those ideals are concerned, nerf bats can go swing somewhere else.

Ohh as a player it’s 100X better than his suggestions of simply creating a new meta that relies on defense.

But, what you suggest is pretty unrealistic. They’d essentially be taking a single dungeon and designing multiple paths for the same outcome. You can go down the “I’m super tanky and I’m taking the gimmicky road”. Or you’d take the “I’m just gonna kill everything screw this” way.

If I were a dev I’d be saying “umm, no, just accept the game as designed”

But that’s me.

Again I appreciate the thought, and they aren’t terrible ideas, in other games there are gear choices that you make for different reasons, here they simplified gear to offense/defense, and let us use the trait system to define our build, and each player is going to be expected to take part in the support, control and damage aspects of the game. We’re all playing hybrids.

Ulfberht.8519:

Zerker works so well for pve because the ai is straight up scripted, dumb, and predictable. Without a real challenge, there is no reason to use anything else. If they added some REAL ai, then zerk gear would be much harder to use. Imagine pve enemies that can dodge, use group tactics, are unpredictable, and are basically like fighting a group of pvp players. Doubt it will happen though because people love steamrolling pve, and feeling all Godlike…

Everytime I see claims like this I have to ask, care to upload some videos of you tearing up PVE because it’s so easy? Have some <5min Lupi solos without the wall reflect gimmick? What about near record run group dungeon speed clears? Or do you just like to claim it’s all so easy because it makes you feel better about yourself?

Ulfberht.8519:

Zerker works so well for pve because the ai is straight up scripted, dumb, and predictable. Without a real challenge, there is no reason to use anything else. If they added some REAL ai, then zerk gear would be much harder to use. Imagine pve enemies that can dodge, use group tactics, are unpredictable, and are basically like fighting a group of pvp players. Doubt it will happen though because people love steamrolling pve, and feeling all Godlike…

There are NPCs in open world who can dodge.
its quiet interesting to fight them, but i’ve only seem them in low level open world..mostly.

Jerus.4350:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Jerus.4350:

… That’s creating all new content, we’re talking about adjusting all current content to not fit the zerker meta. How do you do that without completely remaking the entire game?

And I can tell you even after reading the first paragraph, I’m not into that. Restricting the use of abilities doesn’t make things fun. And reliance on NPCs… no thanks. The idea as a whole, while might be fun to you, doesn’t sound fun to me, it sounds gimmicky and annoying.

I appreciate you taking the time to create an example but that’s just my honest opinion on it. Look at Aetherpath, how often is it run? Gimmicks simply aren’t as replayable as the core mechanics, at least IMO.

As you read further you’ll see options without NPC reliance. Regardless this is an arbitrary example to give an idea as to how content can be layered or balanced to play into various strengths.

My goal is to allow other options to flourish without taking away systems that people are already used to, rather to add systems that allow other ideals a chance of fruition as long as the dedication is behind it. No one likes having things taken away from them and I don’t either.

Wooden Potatoe’s suggestions as far as character sheet rebalancing takes things away from people, whenever I got something taken away it got real irritating real fast. As far as those ideals are concerned, nerf bats can go swing somewhere else.

Ohh as a player it’s 100X better than his suggestions of simply creating a new meta that relies on defense.

But, what you suggest is pretty unrealistic. They’d essentially be taking a single dungeon and designing multiple paths for the same outcome. You can go down the “I’m super tanky and I’m taking the gimmicky road”. Or you’d take the “I’m just gonna kill everything screw this” way.

If I were a dev I’d be saying “umm, no, just accept the game as designed”

But that’s me.

Again I appreciate the thought, and they aren’t terrible ideas, in other games there are gear choices that you make for different reasons, here they simplified gear to offense/defense, and let us use the trait system to define our build, and each player is going to be expected to take part in the support, control and damage aspects of the game. We’re all playing hybrids.

I appreciate your time in understanding me.

Ever played the Witcher games? it gets a lot of praise, has a parallel ideology (I plan on getting The Witcher 3 the moment it comes out)? Of course the difference with the Witcher games is that when a different approach is made and succeeds, a different flavor of the reward is given. Tons of different branches.

What if you could isolate the strengths of those systems into a dungeon? Personal opinion, would be one of the best designed dungeons in the entirety of MMO Gaming, would make headlines.

Simon.3794:

Ulfberht.8519:

Zerker works so well for pve because the ai is straight up scripted, dumb, and predictable. Without a real challenge, there is no reason to use anything else. If they added some REAL ai, then zerk gear would be much harder to use. Imagine pve enemies that can dodge, use group tactics, are unpredictable, and are basically like fighting a group of pvp players. Doubt it will happen though because people love steamrolling pve, and feeling all Godlike…

There are NPCs in open world who can dodge.
its quiet interesting to fight them, but i’ve only seem them in low level open world..mostly.

The Asuran Vigil Tactician Skill Trainer at Pact Rally Point in the Straits of Devastation will dodge reactively, however her system is sequential and not at all varied and will perform a perfect dodge even against a stealthed backstab leading to a barbed trap.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

<snip>

I appreciate your time in understanding me.

Ever played the Witcher games? it gets a lot of praise, has a parallel ideology (I plan on getting The Witcher 3 the moment it comes out)? Of course the difference with the Witcher games is that when a different approach is made and succeeds, a different flavor of the reward is given. Tons of different branches.

What if you could isolate the strengths of those systems into a dungeon? Personal opinion, would be one of the best designed dungeons in the entirety of MMO Gaming, would make headlines.

Aye, I think there are a lot of good ideas out there on how to handle games in general. I think there is some reason in creating a system that gives options and promotes different roles. Simply put though, that’s not GW2 and changing the game 2 years into it is IMO unreasonable and a bad idea.

I think back to other games I played, DCUO we often took someone in tank role but with DPS gear into more trivial content because by being in tank role they could play the part of the setup, gathering everything together so they could be quickly killed. They’d lose personal damage (about 1/3 of their damage lost) but as a group we’d gain because of the easy cleaving. So there definitely can be benefits to alternative roles even in speed clears, I just don’t see that being in the realm of GW2’s combat system without creating gimmicky events.

I really feel though that GW2’s system is quite strong, it’s just different. I don’t see the problem with the system, I think it’s just the mentality of players to focus on gear stats rather than builds as a whole. You can still be a very support oriented player helping groups get through content easily. Hammer guard… my god can you make things easy. And, Mesmers, some of the things you can do are pretty impressive, I don’t know if anyone has tried messing around with Illusionary Defenders in mediocre pug groups, but that thing has some power if people aren’t dodging properly, I remember using it in COE p1 just to check out how well it mitigated that tooth damage that many people just eat. It was impressive to say the least.

So, sure the ideal is everyone plays meta builds perfectly, but realistically there is a lot more depth to be had because not everyone is capable of doing that, or simply doesn’t want to put that level of effort in. That depth just isn’t in the pure gear, but in the other elements of a build. Defensive gear is for if you personally are struggling, supportive traits and weapon choices are to help your teammates get through.

I appreciate the feedback Jerus but the comment in regards to defensive gear is gonna spin us into a circular argument. Defensive Gear is so much more than that and it can be so much more than how its viewed in the PvE community(again, roots to implementation of PvE dungeon encounters, how PvE is set up forces it down this road).

My ideas do not implore changing the core systems for the sake of changing it in any way but instead unifies it by improving on it with other existing elements playing into Anet’s bigger picture goals, allow me to go into detail. Remember this video?

skip to Hugh’s comments in regards to bringing PvErs into sPvP.

Now remember back to my very first posts here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/The-zerker-meta-and-how-to-change-it/first#post4565580

Now remember what Anet wants to push.

Ideologies of WvW and sPvP can in some way be compatible(In some form, its much more isolate in sPvP, which is stat archetype+build setup = position with advantages and disadvantages all under player skill discretion) but we have a rift in values with how gear and traits are viewed in PvE. The rift is there and doesn’t burst until that hard lump is overcome.

Now what if you can give PvErs a good taste of it without them knowing? Like slipping in healthy veggies into a kids mac & cheese or blending spinach into his milk shake with no noticeable change in flavor without him noticing the difference and liking it?

See where I am going with this?

This has become circular and I apologies.

Loki.8793:

>> THE PROBLEM <<
To understand how to add more build variety to PvE, we need to first understand why there isn’t variety. Many people would be very quick to point fingers at the poor implementation of dungeon encounters, but I feel the root of the problem is far deeper, hidden in the mechanics of the game itself.

The thing is, while your post is nicely formatted, this is your own personal opinion with no real basis of research or evidence supporting this claim.

Simply put, from a game design perspective, berserker stat setups yield the most efficiency of time spent versus content cleared. People want to clear things as quickly as they can, for a variety of reasons. Because the dungeons are all linear with no real shortcuts/utilization of other particular styles of play or builds, and the allowance of hot-swapping gear and traits on the fly, there is no particular need or desire from players looking to optimize their time spent : reward ratio by building heavier on the defensive.

Skill scaling will not increase diversity. If anything it will decrease it, and make combat less interesting. It’s this reason why D/D thief is considered a bad spec in PvP formats: Only three of its skills are really useful, and the spec feels pigeonholed between either burst damage/DPS or condi spam via only the 3 skill.

Poor dungeon/encounter design paired with the player demand for efficient dungeon runs is what has caused and will continue to cause gear preferences in certain environments. Be it berserker, soldier’s, sinister – whatever it may be – it does no matter; as soon as one gear setup or class is optimized for more damage outputs than others, the others will be and remain as outcast builds and undesirable. All additional/different scaling would bring is ultimately less diversity due to the lack of self-selected skills within the use of the weapons chosen, and again, players pursuing further optimization by possibly then being able to negate the inclusion of other classes into parties based upon skill kits and overall reducing the impact of each individual skill/resourcefulness that GW2 combat allows for. And such implementations would also negatively effect various other formats of the game (WvW) which do not at all resemble said metagame to the extent that said proposition would break more than it would fix, while efforts to re-design dungeons would resolve many of the metagame problems while not affecting other modes of play.

If berserker builds were the end-all choice of all game modes, the suggestion would have (slightly) more merit, but unfortunately this idea simply does not cater to truly resolving the problems at hand.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I appreciate the feedback Jerus but the comment in regards to defensive gear is gonna spin us into a circular argument. Defensive Gear is so much more than that and it can be so much more than how its viewed in the PvE community(again, roots to implementation of PvE dungeon encounters, how PvE is set up forces it down this road).

My ideas do not implore changing the core systems for the sake of changing it in any way but instead unifies it by improving on it with other existing elements playing into Anet’s bigger picture goals, allow me to go into detail. Remember this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFWJ23pi2EU#t=2062

skip to Hugh’s comments in regards to bringing PvErs into sPvP.

Now remember back to my very first posts here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/The-zerker-meta-and-how-to-change-it/first#post4565580

Now remember what Anet wants to push.

Ideologies of WvW and sPvP can in some way be compatible(In some form, its much more isolate in sPvP, which is stat archetype+build setup = position with advantages and disadvantages all under player skill discretion) but we have a rift in values with how gear and traits are viewed in PvE. The rift is there and doesn’t burst until that hard lump is overcome.

Now what if you can give PvErs a good taste of it without them knowing? Like slipping in healthy veggies into a kids mac & cheese or blending spinach into his milk shake with no noticeable change in flavor without him noticing the difference and liking it?

See where I am going with this?

This has become circular and I apologies.

I hear what you’re saying, I just think it’s a lot easier said than done. Not only mechanically but also finding a way to execute some of your ideas in a way that actually has it being fun. I mean how many people enjoy fighting thieves in PVP? It’s something you have to deal with but do people really enjoy the act of fighting them? So would making stealthing enemies be fun, or annoying… look how popular Mossman is… one shots from stealth sure are fun…

And not only that, they have enemies that dodge, but it’s done so in a scripted manner. Look at Arah p3, hunter/crusher, hunter will only dodge back if he’s targetted, so what do people do, well they learned that and they simply avoid targetting him letting him die to cleave damage. I don’t know if it’s a technical limitation but fact is we simply learned the AI requirements and know what to avoid to maximize our efforts.

I just don’t know how realistic or even fun more AI would be. And even then, is it really going to achieve the goals of more diversity and options?

If enemies learn to dodge fields, then doesn’t that eliminate many options? Why use Lava Font, Acid Bomb, Smoke Field, Smite… etc basically any field we use if enemies are simply going to take a step out of it after the first tick? Doesn’t that render a lot of options pointless? No more reason for any of those weapons as it’ll just cause movement.

How do you add AI without making the game more tedious and annoying than fun?

One thing I do really agree on is I’d love to see more boon effects, especially retaliation. It’d give boon stripping a purpose, but then agian, that wouldn’t really affect the gear choices, just trait/utility/weapon choices again.

Jerus.4350:

—snip—

As long as the ends justify the means I think that can atleast speak to those who really want the fastest way to get cash, take a look at the new personal story episode, it even gives you a black lion key at the end, and I believe the bandit gear boxes that were dropping in that entire area are capable of dropping named exotics as well as a great deal of other things that have been dropping in that area. Last halloween?

Whether this is fun for you is obviously a personal choice. I would imagine health bars can be rebalanced, reduced, etc(For me I think if I saw a thief type mob that was all over the place and all I needed was one good shot at it to take him down, it would make me giddy to see a 15k eviscerate crit that dropped him, but obviously in the context that the target was doing everything it can to make it extremely difficult for me to land my shots). as well as armors of associated types to be in line with what mobs can do(this goes to more of a time spent vs risk vs reward type balance bars,). I like to be challenged on all fronts, the game feels more alive to me if I feel like its out to get me and stuff me into a freddy fezbear suit if I dare walk the wrong path.

As far as your comment in regards to stationary AoEs, this is still used against other players in sPvP. Yes more often than not you can miss your shots, but this makes each decision worth that much more and not just your ability to time it, put be precise with it and synergize its effectiveness with abilities of teammates or the overall situational conditions..

Regardless of what we say more of in this thread (I have no problem continuing discussion after I’m done work today). We can clearly see Anet taking steps in this direction regardless.

http://intrinsicalgorithm.com/IANews/2014/04/now-consulting-at-arenanet-on-guild-wars-2/

Old news but we get the picture

A clear and recent example is of course the silverwastes. Whether this received overall positive reception is of course a different subject.

What can we do in this area?

- escort supply dolyaks
- defend forts
- whether the loot is to your liking is obviously personal opinion

There’s even different siege engines that people can use to their advantage (the cannons suck unfortunately).

What types of different mobs are we seeing in this area?

- High armored
- Very mobile
- Teragriffs are a literal I will FGS you into the wall if you don’t cripple me or move out of the way
- HEALERS

Guess what Anet just did? instead of making you the same classic mac & cheese that they have been making you for 2 years straight, this time you get grilled asparagus mac & cheese topped with marble, bread crumbs, and garlic olive oil. Would it be something you enjoy? obviously that’s up to your personal tastes. I personally like the gourmet lobster mac & cheeses I get from bistros so this is up my alley.

In this example, mac & cheese is PvE, the healthy veg are WvW systems. Sometimes its good, sometimes its not, sometimes whether you like it or not is entirely based on whether the Chef is good or not and whether or not you’d eat asparagus in any shape or form. Too much asparagus of course and you might as well just be eating a crudite platter instead of such a cheesy mess, too little? well you get the picture.

Now how can I best build interest in structured pvp if I was Colin within my current consumer pool? I think the closest current targets are people who prefer structured environments that are not currently pvp. *looks at dungeons.

Coldtart.4785:

PvE is incapable of ever requiring skill so it’s pointless to change it.

He said, and promptly lost to a chess engine.

tldr version of this thread…

Some people want to change the gearing system in the game because they don’t like having to dodge or because their “playstyle is support.” They don’t have any proof the new no-dodge heal spam meta would be more fun or more skill based, but they want it anyway.

What did I miss?

Personally I don’t mind getting the stats closer together, but in PvE this has to happen via the mobs actively challenging certain player setups.

That is to say, certain types of mobs should react to stacked melee groups by continuously running away while shooting AE ranged attacks.