Guild Wars 2

Vital shot needs a large buff. Thats all I have to say. I just hope the Dev’s read this because it is a really poor auto attack for pistols.

Edit /04/05/14: It’s great to see this post pop back up and see so many great ideas being posted. Hopefully we have the Dev’s interested by now and if not, hopefully we can soon.

I believe what Vital shot needs is greater direct damage and reduced after cast, that way it can stack bleeds for p/d and maintain DPS for P/P. It would be nice to see it twice as fast, although that’s probably pushing it a bit

I take vital shot and give you our Pistol #1 (engi)

It’s an auto attack, you shouldn’t be using it as your primary damage source. I’m sure the devs love your in-depth analysis aswell.

Its only just that warrior rifle 1 has longer range, more damage, longer bleed, nicer animation and same attack speed.

Inverted.7439:

It’s an auto attack, you shouldn’t be using it as your primary damage source. I’m sure the devs love your in-depth analysis aswell.

I’m bumping this thread, because I want to and because this is something that needs attention – both Vital Shot specifically and the issue of #1 skills at large.

The quoted post is wrong, as apparently are some of Anet’s balance team. The #1 skill sets the baseline for sustained DPS. When it’s bad, the weapon will be bad in any prolonged engagement (i.e. most of PvE). See Memser Scepter for another great example. This is a big enough problem with any weapon/profession, but with the Thief it’s doubly so due to the the fact that their non #1 skills share a resource.

Effectively, Vital Shot’s weakness is nearly entirely responsible for breaking the whole set because it makes your basic DPS highly dependent on Initiative. This is in turn a problem because it bars access to the set’s utility AND restricts your mobility substantially. Bleeding Shot on the Warrior’s rifle does about 30% more damage from greater range for no explicable reason – even though it has a 50% slower “activation speed” the two skills actually fire at the same rate due to Vital Shot having a poorly tuned aftercast (this is also a problem on numerous other ranged weapons like the Longbow, Staff, Scepter, and Engi Pistol).

The fact that this hasn’t been identified and corrected after 1.5 years is flabbergasting. The #1 balance priority should be to make sure that all #1 skills across all weapons and professions are performing at a respectable level and are reasonably balanced relative to one another – it’s like coarse tuning. Only then can balance shift into more granular pieces like traits.

Vital Shot (and many other ranged #1 skills) need to be buffed by at least 25% (probably through a slight aftercast reduction + a slight buff to direct damage) to make the weapon competitive in general play.

Ichishi.9613:

Its only just that warrior rifle 1 has longer range, more damage, longer bleed, nicer animation and same attack speed.

And?
How is this a useful comparison, being on two entirely different weapons on two entirely different classes with entirely different basic skill setups and class mechanics?

To go back to the usual analogy, while you are comparing an apple to an apple, you’re comparing one in a high earth orbit science vessel to one in your hand, ready to be eaten. Which is more useful to you, and which is more useful to a scientist?

Carighan.6758:

Ichishi.9613:

Its only just that warrior rifle 1 has longer range, more damage, longer bleed, nicer animation and same attack speed.

And?
How is this a useful comparison, …

They are both ranged weapons, one is clearly stronger on it’s auto-attack. Explain why this would not be a useful comparison.

Pistol/Dagger weapon set is highly viable, even in tPvP, but boring. Watch Caed’s stream and observe..

Vital shot is fine… the hybrid damage from Shadow Strike is simply too amazing to think about buffing auto-attack damage.

frans.8092:

They are both ranged weapons, one is clearly stronger on it’s auto-attack. Explain why this would not be a useful comparison.

Oh, right, I’m so sorry, you got me. I completely forgot that weapons only have their autoattack and nothing else. How silly of me. Thanks for the correction there, nice safe.

Well, Chaith. I’ll give a known heavy pvper his cred. However, P/D being in decent shape does bupkis for the fact that P/P is still -almost 2 years- in, considered the most craptastic of all Thief weaponspreads.
With that in mind, what would you suggest? I personally wanted to see some form of evasion play built into the set, but obviously ANet and I don’t agree. /shrug

Carighan.6758:

Ichishi.9613:

Its only just that warrior rifle 1 has longer range, more damage, longer bleed, nicer animation and same attack speed.

And?
How is this a useful comparison, being on two entirely different weapons on two entirely different classes with entirely different basic skill setups and class mechanics?

To go back to the usual analogy, while you are comparing an apple to an apple, you’re comparing one in a high earth orbit science vessel to one in your hand, ready to be eaten. Which is more useful to you, and which is more useful to a scientist?

It’s a useful comparison because P/P and Warrior Rifle have a very, very similar design except that Rifle hits harder from further away, and gets burst without having to sacrifice utility or sustained damage. Furthermore, the bigger point to be made is that the autoattack is more significant to a weapon’s usability than many players AND devs seem to realize.

Chaith.8256:

Pistol/Dagger weapon set is highly viable, even in tPvP, but boring. Watch Caed’s stream and observe..

Vital shot is fine… the hybrid damage from Shadow Strike is simply too amazing to think about buffing auto-attack damage.

It isn’t, and a buff to the autoattack is precisely what is needed. It won’t really make P/D any stronger than it is now, but will make P/P feel usable. If need be, they can buff the direct damage only and compensate P/D by nerfing the sneak attack slightly.

Einlanzer.1627:

It’s a useful comparison because P/P and Warrior Rifle have a very, very similar design except that Rifle hits harder from further away, and gets burst without having to sacrifice utility or sustained damage. Furthermore, the bigger point to be made is that the autoattack is more significant to a weapon’s usability than many players AND devs seem to realize.

Autoattack establishes a baseline damage output and/or usability case.

For example if you consider Engineer Rifle and Necromancer Staff, these two are clearly designating themselves as AoE weapons, having a line-AE as an autoattack.

The raw damage can be easily used for balancing purposes. If it’s lower, the weapon can be focused more on mobility, usability, control or support. A good example of this would be Mesmer Staff, which’s damage output comes in a very indirect shape, and which’s autoattack basically serves to produce trash conditions and dealing no perceivable direct damage.

Ofc the autoattack is important. But not in the sense that they should all be same-damage single target attacks and same-damage cleave attacks for melee.
It’s actually quite important that they’re very different, and if anything there’s too little variety right now. The AA is the easiest way to give a weapon a “role”, as it’s a move you’ll be producing a surprisingly large amount of your output with.

However, even in circumstances with similar weapons, them being embedded in different classes using completely different class mechanics makes them very difficult to compare. You could have a fully superior weapon on class A, and that class with that weapon could still be inferior to class B for any given situation, despite B having the entirely superior weapon.
It’s easy to envision this, because it’s already happening, though “any given situation” is a bit of an interpretation-thing (it’s easy to find imbalances in 1v1 considering that the devs don’t balance for it).

Advent.6193:

Well, Chaith. I’ll give a known heavy pvper his cred. However, P/D being in decent shape does bupkis for the fact that P/P is still -almost 2 years- in, considered the most craptastic of all Thief weaponspreads.
With that in mind, what would you suggest? I personally wanted to see some form of evasion play built into the set, but obviously ANet and I don’t agree. /shrug

My logic as to why P/P is pretty craptastic is because there are no defensive mechanisms imbued into the weapon set.

S/D Flanking strike evades… S/P Pistol Whip evades, Shadow Shot’s teleport and blind,

With P/D, simply landing Shadow Strike while pressured, or offensively, will pretty much make you impossible to catch. Teleporting 20 times a minute gets extremely tiresome to enemies that are melee or AoE based.

Every 3 skill has a mechanic that allows you to avoid counter-pressure… with P/P you are locked in a channel and you can’t evade anything. That’s kind of a big downside, haha.

Chaith.8256:

Advent.6193:

Well, Chaith. I’ll give a known heavy pvper his cred. However, P/D being in decent shape does bupkis for the fact that P/P is still -almost 2 years- in, considered the most craptastic of all Thief weaponspreads.
With that in mind, what would you suggest? I personally wanted to see some form of evasion play built into the set, but obviously ANet and I don’t agree. /shrug

My logic as to why P/P is pretty craptastic is because there are no defensive mechanisms imbued into the weapon set.

S/D Flanking strike evades… S/P Pistol Whip evades, Shadow Shot’s teleport and blind,

With P/D, simply landing Shadow Strike while pressured, or offensively, will pretty much make you impossible to catch. Teleporting 20 times a minute gets extremely tiresome to enemies that are melee or AoE based.

Every 3 skill has a mechanic that allows you to avoid counter-pressure… with P/P you are locked in a channel and you can’t evade anything. That’s kind of a big downside, haha.

That is sort of related to the actual problem, but it isn’t really the problem. It has Black Powder, which is arguably an OP defensive skill. The problem, actually, is what the thread is about. Simply put, Vital Shot is too weak.

This has a profound impact on the playability of the set (which is unique to all sets in the game) where you are overly dependent on Initiative for basic damage, since Unload has to compensate for what Vital Shot should be doing. And because Unload costs Initiative (which is a shared resource) AND is a channel skill, you have to over-sacrifice in both utility and mobility just to keep up mediocre damage pressure that should be coming from Vital Shot on its own.

It’s altogether broken, and hilarious that it has been for 1.5 years.

Facts:
P/D wants Vital Shot to be condition damage base.
P/P wants Vital Shot to be physical damage base.

Tradeoffs:
P/D sacrifices power to gain more condition damage
P/P sacrifices condition damage to gain more power

Problem:
Simply buffing Vital Shot, even the attack speed, will make P/D less worry about power and P/P less worry about condition damage at a point the neither is better than the other in the power-condition spectrum. This should not be the case.

The trade off between power and condition must remain else one of these weapon sets will become obsolete.

Question:
How do you solve this issue if buffing Vital Shot is a very bad idea?

Solution:
Make Vital Shot exclusive to main hand Pistol (P-only and P/D) and create a new 5-skills set for P/P (and by extension, D/D) with new animations that uses both pistols at all times.

Afterthought:
A lot of people won’t agree with this, but honestly, this is the only solution to the pistol problem for Thieves.

How about something like this.

“When dual wielding pistols. Casting speed is increased by x%?”

That way P/D remains unchanged as a superior condition weaponset. And P/P allows for quicker attacks=more DPS. And you can calculate the casting speed of the other skills to compensate for the auto attacks increased attack speed.

Now, that’s an interesting concept. Could be done as a Trait, I’d presume CS and prolly Master level.

And Chaith, we definitely agree on that business. Zero (in weaponset) maneuverability when you go full-on Gunslinger. Hell, and it’s not like we couldn’t have had an “evasive” Unload. Plenty of movies/games/anime/etc. that could inspire such a thing.

bobomb.5209:

How about something like this.

“When dual wielding pistols. Casting speed is increased by x%?”

That way P/D remains unchanged as a superior condition weaponset. And P/P allows for quicker attacks=more DPS. And you can calculate the casting speed of the other skills to compensate for the auto attacks increased attack speed.

Not going to work.

The reaction to that change will be the increase in condition damage based P/P builds because obviously, you can apply bleed quicker than in P/D without spending initiatives. The saved initiatives can then be used to spam Daze (headshot), Immobilize, and Blind while stacking a lot of bleed with AA on the target. The result will be obsoleting P/D as the main condition damage weapon set.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Facts:
P/D wants Vital Shot to be condition damage base.
P/P wants Vital Shot to be physical damage base.

Tradeoffs:
P/D sacrifices power to gain more condition damage
P/P sacrifices condition damage to gain more power

Problem:
Simply buffing Vital Shot, even the attack speed, will make P/D less worry about power and P/P less worry about condition damage at a point the neither is better than the other in the power-condition spectrum. This should not be the case.

The trade off between power and condition must remain else one of these weapon sets will become obsolete.

Question:
How do you solve this issue if buffing Vital Shot is a very bad idea?

Solution:
Make Vital Shot exclusive to main hand Pistol (P-only and P/D) and create a new 5-skills set for P/P (and by extension, D/D) with new animations that uses both pistols at all times.

Afterthought:
A lot of people won’t agree with this, but honestly, this is the only solution to the pistol problem for Thieves.

No, it isn’t, and while I wouldn’t personally have a problem with your suggestion, it would require a total rework and would break convention, which I would argue is not necessary.

Vital Shot is underpowered with both P/D and P/P. The reason P/D is generally considered to outperform P/P is due to other factors, the main one being that it gets supplemental damage from various sources that don’t require either Initiative starvation OR standing still, like Caltrops and Sneak Attacks. In effect, P/D lets you apply equal or better damage pressure that’s a.) more passive and b.) doesn’t require you to sacrifice so much utility and mobility.

A straight buff to Vital Shot, say through 20% increased attack speed, would be a boon to both P/D and P/P, but the gains would be more subtle for P/D than for P/P due to the way its damage works. In both cases, they may need to rebalance the #3 skill and possibly the sneak attack, but that is not a good enough reason why it shouldn’t happen.

Einlanzer.1627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Facts:
P/D wants Vital Shot to be condition damage base.
P/P wants Vital Shot to be physical damage base.

Tradeoffs:
P/D sacrifices power to gain more condition damage
P/P sacrifices condition damage to gain more power

Problem:
Simply buffing Vital Shot, even the attack speed, will make P/D less worry about power and P/P less worry about condition damage at a point the neither is better than the other in the power-condition spectrum. This should not be the case.

The trade off between power and condition must remain else one of these weapon sets will become obsolete.

Question:
How do you solve this issue if buffing Vital Shot is a very bad idea?

Solution:
Make Vital Shot exclusive to main hand Pistol (P-only and P/D) and create a new 5-skills set for P/P (and by extension, D/D) with new animations that uses both pistols at all times.

Afterthought:
A lot of people won’t agree with this, but honestly, this is the only solution to the pistol problem for Thieves.

No, it isn’t, and while I wouldn’t personally have a problem with your suggestion, it would require a total rework and would break convention, which I would argue is not necessary.

Vital Shot is underpowered with both P/D and P/P. The reason P/D is generally considered to outperform P/P is due to other factors, the main one being that it gets supplemental damage from various sources that don’t require either Initiative starvation OR standing still, like Caltrops and Sneak Attacks. In effect, P/D lets you apply equal or better damage pressure that’s a.) more passive and b.) doesn’t require you to sacrifice so much utility and mobility.

A straight buff to Vital Shot, say through 20% increased attack speed, would be a boon to both P/D and P/P, but the gains would be more subtle for P/D than for P/P due to the way its damage works. In both cases, they may need to rebalance the #3 skill and possibly the sneak attack, but that is not a good enough reason why it shouldn’t happen.

Look at how much you have to tweak after speeding up Vital Shot, then look at how much you have to tweak by giving P/P its own 5-skills. The difference is, my suggestion is going toward the right direction because the future re-balancing will be a lot easier since if the re-balance is needed for P/D, P/P will be unaffected.

As for breaking convention, the “dual-wield” that is exclusive to Thieves is already breaking convention. No other profession gets a different #3 skill depending on the type of weapons equipped — so I don’t understand the issue you’re trying to raise about that.

Considering that p/d has cnd, which means stealth, which means sneak attack (the high bleeds), I think they should work around that. Make the aa power portion stronger so p/p gets some love (although it needs more than that), and buff the bleeds on sneak attack. The duration would be the most likely subject, since it only shots 5 x and 2×5 bleeds would be broken. Maybe 8 seconds base for sneak attack bleeds?

As for the duel skill (unload), I’d suggest either straight buffing its damage or power coefficient, or have each bullet apply a 1.5 second vulnerability. That way a full channel actually hits pretty nasty.

There should be nothing changed for vital shot. P/D is perhaps the most over performing weaponset for thieves period. Any changes would make P/D even more face roll easy.

P/P can just continue to suck IMHO

Sir Vincent III.1286:

bobomb.5209:

How about something like this.

“When dual wielding pistols. Casting speed is increased by x%?”

That way P/D remains unchanged as a superior condition weaponset. And P/P allows for quicker attacks=more DPS. And you can calculate the casting speed of the other skills to compensate for the auto attacks increased attack speed.

Not going to work.

The reaction to that change will be the increase in condition damage based P/P builds because obviously, you can apply bleed quicker than in P/D without spending initiatives. The saved initiatives can then be used to spam Daze (headshot), Immobilize, and Blind while stacking a lot of bleed with AA on the target. The result will be obsoleting P/D as the main condition damage weapon set.

Wrong. Because without the offhand dagger Thiefs would no longer have access to spammable, shadowstepping Torment. The trade-off of torment for a few bleeds is a ridiculously bad trade.

bobomb.5209:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

bobomb.5209:

How about something like this.

“When dual wielding pistols. Casting speed is increased by x%?”

That way P/D remains unchanged as a superior condition weaponset. And P/P allows for quicker attacks=more DPS. And you can calculate the casting speed of the other skills to compensate for the auto attacks increased attack speed.

Not going to work.

The reaction to that change will be the increase in condition damage based P/P builds because obviously, you can apply bleed quicker than in P/D without spending initiatives. The saved initiatives can then be used to spam Daze (headshot), Immobilize, and Blind while stacking a lot of bleed with AA on the target. The result will be obsoleting P/D as the main condition damage weapon set.

Wrong. Because without the offhand dagger Thiefs would no longer have access to spammable, shadowstepping Torment. The trade-off of torment for a few bleeds is a ridiculously bad trade.

What clearly needs to happen is that Vital Shot needs to be buffed by reducing its aftercast, making it moderately stronger for both P/P and P/D, then Sneak Attack needs to have a portion of its bleed damage converted to direct damage so that it’s at least equally useful if not slightly stronger with P/P since P/D can access it more easily.

Then, Torment doesn’t really need to be touched, nor does Unload. Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other, resulting in a significant buff to the overall functionality of P/P and breaking even for P/D without any (unnecessary) fundamental skill changes or redesigns.

Einlanzer.1627:

bobomb.5209:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

bobomb.5209:

How about something like this.

“When dual wielding pistols. Casting speed is increased by x%?”

That way P/D remains unchanged as a superior condition weaponset. And P/P allows for quicker attacks=more DPS. And you can calculate the casting speed of the other skills to compensate for the auto attacks increased attack speed.

Not going to work.

The reaction to that change will be the increase in condition damage based P/P builds because obviously, you can apply bleed quicker than in P/D without spending initiatives. The saved initiatives can then be used to spam Daze (headshot), Immobilize, and Blind while stacking a lot of bleed with AA on the target. The result will be obsoleting P/D as the main condition damage weapon set.

Wrong. Because without the offhand dagger Thiefs would no longer have access to spammable, shadowstepping Torment. The trade-off of torment for a few bleeds is a ridiculously bad trade.

What clearly needs to happen is that Vital Shot needs to be buffed by reducing its aftercast, making it moderately stronger for both P/P and P/D, then Sneak Attack needs to have a portion of its bleed damage converted to direct damage so that it’s at least equally useful if not slightly stronger with P/P since P/D can access it more easily.

Then, Torment doesn’t really need to be touched, nor does Unload. Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other, resulting in a significant buff to the overall functionality of P/P and breaking even for P/D without any (unnecessary) fundamental skill changes or redesigns.

We are trying to have it both ways without considering any meaningful considerations to whatever repercussions the increase in speed that Vital Shot will introduce.

We want to discuss a solution, but without careful considerations of the repercussions, we’re only setting ourselves up for future problem.

The best course of action is to solve the problem without creating new problems that we have to deal with in the future.

The suggestion of shifting the damage from Vital Shot from bleeding to physical damage will only make things even worst and will prove exactly what I’m talking about. This simple change will shift the usefulness of the main hand pistol from P/D to P/D and your suggestion is the proof of this — you have realized this, yet you refuse to acknowledge the problem it will cause.

I have shared my concerns and it’s up everyone else to think about this through and through.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

bobomb.5209:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

bobomb.5209:

How about something like this.

“When dual wielding pistols. Casting speed is increased by x%?”

That way P/D remains unchanged as a superior condition weaponset. And P/P allows for quicker attacks=more DPS. And you can calculate the casting speed of the other skills to compensate for the auto attacks increased attack speed.

Not going to work.

The reaction to that change will be the increase in condition damage based P/P builds because obviously, you can apply bleed quicker than in P/D without spending initiatives. The saved initiatives can then be used to spam Daze (headshot), Immobilize, and Blind while stacking a lot of bleed with AA on the target. The result will be obsoleting P/D as the main condition damage weapon set.

Wrong. Because without the offhand dagger Thiefs would no longer have access to spammable, shadowstepping Torment. The trade-off of torment for a few bleeds is a ridiculously bad trade.

What clearly needs to happen is that Vital Shot needs to be buffed by reducing its aftercast, making it moderately stronger for both P/P and P/D, then Sneak Attack needs to have a portion of its bleed damage converted to direct damage so that it’s at least equally useful if not slightly stronger with P/P since P/D can access it more easily.

Then, Torment doesn’t really need to be touched, nor does Unload. Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other, resulting in a significant buff to the overall functionality of P/P and breaking even for P/D without any (unnecessary) fundamental skill changes or redesigns.

The suggestion of shifting the damage from Vital Shot from bleeding to physical damage will only make things even worst and will prove exactly what I’m talking about. This simple change will shift the usefulness of the main hand pistol from P/D to P/D and your suggestion is the proof of this — you have realized this, yet you refuse to acknowledge the problem it will cause.

That…. is not what I suggested.

Einlanzer.1627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

bobomb.5209:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

bobomb.5209:

How about something like this.

“When dual wielding pistols. Casting speed is increased by x%?”

That way P/D remains unchanged as a superior condition weaponset. And P/P allows for quicker attacks=more DPS. And you can calculate the casting speed of the other skills to compensate for the auto attacks increased attack speed.

Not going to work.

The reaction to that change will be the increase in condition damage based P/P builds because obviously, you can apply bleed quicker than in P/D without spending initiatives. The saved initiatives can then be used to spam Daze (headshot), Immobilize, and Blind while stacking a lot of bleed with AA on the target. The result will be obsoleting P/D as the main condition damage weapon set.

Wrong. Because without the offhand dagger Thiefs would no longer have access to spammable, shadowstepping Torment. The trade-off of torment for a few bleeds is a ridiculously bad trade.

What clearly needs to happen is that Vital Shot needs to be buffed by reducing its aftercast, making it moderately stronger for both P/P and P/D, then Sneak Attack needs to have a portion of its bleed damage converted to direct damage so that it’s at least equally useful if not slightly stronger with P/P since P/D can access it more easily.

Then, Torment doesn’t really need to be touched, nor does Unload. Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other, resulting in a significant buff to the overall functionality of P/P and breaking even for P/D without any (unnecessary) fundamental skill changes or redesigns.

The suggestion of shifting the damage from Vital Shot from bleeding to physical damage will only make things even worst and will prove exactly what I’m talking about. This simple change will shift the usefulness of the main hand pistol from P/D to P/D and your suggestion is the proof of this — you have realized this, yet you refuse to acknowledge the problem it will cause.

That…. is not what I suggested.

If so, then can you clarify what you meant by this?

“Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other…”

How exactly this “rebalance” is to happen if not shifting physical and condition damage from one end to another?

o.O
Buff?
What’s that?

I don’t get it… o.O what is OP trying to get at
“Vital shot needs a large buff.”
Large change? That’s called a nerf bro, it’s normal we get it all the time.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

bobomb.5209:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

bobomb.5209:

How about something like this.

“When dual wielding pistols. Casting speed is increased by x%?”

That way P/D remains unchanged as a superior condition weaponset. And P/P allows for quicker attacks=more DPS. And you can calculate the casting speed of the other skills to compensate for the auto attacks increased attack speed.

Not going to work.

The reaction to that change will be the increase in condition damage based P/P builds because obviously, you can apply bleed quicker than in P/D without spending initiatives. The saved initiatives can then be used to spam Daze (headshot), Immobilize, and Blind while stacking a lot of bleed with AA on the target. The result will be obsoleting P/D as the main condition damage weapon set.

Wrong. Because without the offhand dagger Thiefs would no longer have access to spammable, shadowstepping Torment. The trade-off of torment for a few bleeds is a ridiculously bad trade.

What clearly needs to happen is that Vital Shot needs to be buffed by reducing its aftercast, making it moderately stronger for both P/P and P/D, then Sneak Attack needs to have a portion of its bleed damage converted to direct damage so that it’s at least equally useful if not slightly stronger with P/P since P/D can access it more easily.

Then, Torment doesn’t really need to be touched, nor does Unload. Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other, resulting in a significant buff to the overall functionality of P/P and breaking even for P/D without any (unnecessary) fundamental skill changes or redesigns.

The suggestion of shifting the damage from Vital Shot from bleeding to physical damage will only make things even worst and will prove exactly what I’m talking about. This simple change will shift the usefulness of the main hand pistol from P/D to P/D and your suggestion is the proof of this — you have realized this, yet you refuse to acknowledge the problem it will cause.

That…. is not what I suggested.

If so, then can you clarify what you meant by this?

“Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other…”

How exactly this “rebalance” is to happen if not shifting physical and condition damage from one end to another?

I explicitly stated it in the quoted post. Vital Shot just needs to shoot faster, which would give equal amounts more direct and bleed damage and would be an equal buff for P/P and P/D. Then, Sneak Attack needs to have a portion of its bleed damage converted to direct damage so that it’s balanced for both P/P and P/D. This would be a buff + nerf to P/D that will mostly even out, and a straight buff for P/P.

^ sounds good to me

Einlanzer.1627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

bobomb.5209:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

bobomb.5209:

How about something like this.

“When dual wielding pistols. Casting speed is increased by x%?”

That way P/D remains unchanged as a superior condition weaponset. And P/P allows for quicker attacks=more DPS. And you can calculate the casting speed of the other skills to compensate for the auto attacks increased attack speed.

Not going to work.

The reaction to that change will be the increase in condition damage based P/P builds because obviously, you can apply bleed quicker than in P/D without spending initiatives. The saved initiatives can then be used to spam Daze (headshot), Immobilize, and Blind while stacking a lot of bleed with AA on the target. The result will be obsoleting P/D as the main condition damage weapon set.

Wrong. Because without the offhand dagger Thiefs would no longer have access to spammable, shadowstepping Torment. The trade-off of torment for a few bleeds is a ridiculously bad trade.

What clearly needs to happen is that Vital Shot needs to be buffed by reducing its aftercast, making it moderately stronger for both P/P and P/D, then Sneak Attack needs to have a portion of its bleed damage converted to direct damage so that it’s at least equally useful if not slightly stronger with P/P since P/D can access it more easily.

Then, Torment doesn’t really need to be touched, nor does Unload. Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other, resulting in a significant buff to the overall functionality of P/P and breaking even for P/D without any (unnecessary) fundamental skill changes or redesigns.

The suggestion of shifting the damage from Vital Shot from bleeding to physical damage will only make things even worst and will prove exactly what I’m talking about. This simple change will shift the usefulness of the main hand pistol from P/D to P/D and your suggestion is the proof of this — you have realized this, yet you refuse to acknowledge the problem it will cause.

That…. is not what I suggested.

If so, then can you clarify what you meant by this?

“Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other…”

How exactly this “rebalance” is to happen if not shifting physical and condition damage from one end to another?

I explicitly stated it in the quoted post. Vital Shot just needs to shoot faster, which would give equal amounts more direct and bleed damage and would be an equal buff for P/P and P/D. Then, Sneak Attack needs to have a portion of its bleed damage converted to direct damage so that it’s balanced for both P/P and P/D. This would be a buff + nerf to P/D that will mostly even out, and a straight buff for P/P.

Yes, I read that, but I was responding to this.

“Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other…”

In order to have “rebalance” around Vital Shot and Sneak Attack is to shift the damage around along the spectrum between physical and condition damage.

Are you telling me that is not what you meant by “rebalanced around each other”?

Nevertheless, this suggestion is short sighted and giving P/P attack speed boost from Vital Shot + more physical damage from Sneak Attack spells out disaster.

aren’t thieves supposed to use their initiative skills to max damage output

Sarrs.4831:

aren’t thieves supposed to use their initiative skills to max damage output

Too OP, people complain about 22222222222222222222 (on d/x)
:D using our init to max our damage OP silly….

Zero Day.2594:

Sarrs.4831:

aren’t thieves supposed to use their initiative skills to max damage output

Too OP, people complain about 22222222222222222222 (on d/x)
:D using our init to max our damage OP silly….

i have no idea what you just said

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Einlanzer.1627:

bobomb.5209:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

bobomb.5209:

How about something like this.

“When dual wielding pistols. Casting speed is increased by x%?”

That way P/D remains unchanged as a superior condition weaponset. And P/P allows for quicker attacks=more DPS. And you can calculate the casting speed of the other skills to compensate for the auto attacks increased attack speed.

Not going to work.

The reaction to that change will be the increase in condition damage based P/P builds because obviously, you can apply bleed quicker than in P/D without spending initiatives. The saved initiatives can then be used to spam Daze (headshot), Immobilize, and Blind while stacking a lot of bleed with AA on the target. The result will be obsoleting P/D as the main condition damage weapon set.

Wrong. Because without the offhand dagger Thiefs would no longer have access to spammable, shadowstepping Torment. The trade-off of torment for a few bleeds is a ridiculously bad trade.

What clearly needs to happen is that Vital Shot needs to be buffed by reducing its aftercast, making it moderately stronger for both P/P and P/D, then Sneak Attack needs to have a portion of its bleed damage converted to direct damage so that it’s at least equally useful if not slightly stronger with P/P since P/D can access it more easily.

Then, Torment doesn’t really need to be touched, nor does Unload. Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other, resulting in a significant buff to the overall functionality of P/P and breaking even for P/D without any (unnecessary) fundamental skill changes or redesigns.

The suggestion of shifting the damage from Vital Shot from bleeding to physical damage will only make things even worst and will prove exactly what I’m talking about. This simple change will shift the usefulness of the main hand pistol from P/D to P/D and your suggestion is the proof of this — you have realized this, yet you refuse to acknowledge the problem it will cause.

That…. is not what I suggested.

If so, then can you clarify what you meant by this?

“Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other…”

How exactly this “rebalance” is to happen if not shifting physical and condition damage from one end to another?

I explicitly stated it in the quoted post. Vital Shot just needs to shoot faster, which would give equal amounts more direct and bleed damage and would be an equal buff for P/P and P/D. Then, Sneak Attack needs to have a portion of its bleed damage converted to direct damage so that it’s balanced for both P/P and P/D. This would be a buff + nerf to P/D that will mostly even out, and a straight buff for P/P.

Yes, I read that, but I was responding to this.

“Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are rebalanced around each other…”

In order to have “rebalance” around Vital Shot and Sneak Attack is to shift the damage around along the spectrum between physical and condition damage.

Are you telling me that is not what you meant by “rebalanced around each other”?

Nevertheless, this suggestion is short sighted and giving P/P attack speed boost from Vital Shot + more physical damage from Sneak Attack spells out disaster.

I meant that only in a general sense, referring back to what I said above. And, I disagree that it’s shortsighted. It’s actually precisely what P/P needs. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

Sarrs.4831:

aren’t thieves supposed to use their initiative skills to max damage output

No, thieves are supposed to use their initiative strategically based on tactical need in a given moment. That doesn’t work for P/P because you need all your Initiative for Unload spamming. That is primarily because Vital Shot is too weak to rely on and Unload has to compensate for it.

Sarrs.4831:

Zero Day.2594:

Sarrs.4831:

aren’t thieves supposed to use their initiative skills to max damage output

Too OP, people complain about 22222222222222222222 (on d/x)
:D using our init to max our damage OP silly….

i have no idea what you just said

Most would considering “maximizing” our damage output by using the initiative system to be OP, since we can just spam heartseaker….

Ichishi.9613:

Its only just that warrior rifle 1 has longer range, more damage, longer bleed, nicer animation and same attack speed.

I hear that a lot, but doesn’t that completely disregard that Thief mainhand Pistol is apples to Warrior’s Rifle oranges.

Einlanzer.1627:

No, thieves are supposed to use their initiative strategically based on tactical need in a given moment. That doesn’t work for P/P because you need all your Initiative for Unload spamming. That is primarily because Vital Shot is too weak to rely on and Unload has to compensate for it.

In theory, I don’t believe any thief specs should be able to rely exclusively on their 1 for damage. All thief specs should need to mix in another ability, whether that’s a raw damage ability like Pistol Whip or Unload, or a stealth-entering ability like CnD or Blackpowder→Heartseeker, to get their highest possible damage output. Initiative should be used to fill tactical needs, yes, but Murdering Your Enemies is a tactical need; probably the most important one.

If PP needs to be ‘fixed’, try reducing Unload’s cost by 1 and see what happens. The skill is just not very impressive, and isn’t doing much damage for how much it costs, so reduce how much it costs.

Sarrs.4831:

Einlanzer.1627:

No, thieves are supposed to use their initiative strategically based on tactical need in a given moment. That doesn’t work for P/P because you need all your Initiative for Unload spamming. That is primarily because Vital Shot is too weak to rely on and Unload has to compensate for it.

In theory, I don’t believe any thief specs should be able to rely exclusively on their 1 for damage. All thief specs should need to mix in another ability, whether that’s a raw damage ability like Pistol Whip or Unload, or a stealth-entering ability like CnD or Blackpowder->Heartseeker, to get their highest possible damage output. Initiative should be used to fill tactical needs, yes, but Murdering Your Enemies is a tactical need; probably the most important one.

If PP needs to be ‘fixed’, try reducing Unload’s cost by 1 and see what happens. The skill is just not very impressive, and isn’t doing much damage for how much it costs, so reduce how much it costs.

I mean no offense, but you don’t actually seem to be getting why this is an issue. It’s not simply a matter of needing to weave in Unloads to maximize your DPS. It’s a matter of having to perpetually spam Unload to even do reasonable damage. Not only does it mean the set has poor mobility (since Unload is a channel skill) and poor sustained DPS (since Initiative is highly limited), but it also renders utility impotent by indirectly making every other skill useless in comparison, since they all share a resource and continuing to damage your opponent is a lot more important than any momentary utility 90% of the time. This is unique to both the Thief profession and the P/P weapon set.

All reducing Unload’s Initiative cost will do is give P/P an overall DPS increase without doing anything to fix the actual problems discussed above. Vital Shot probably does an average of 60% of the damage Unload does when it should be more like 80-90% (and Unload itself is probably a little weaker than it should be as well). This single fact results in all of the problems with the set that are routinely discussed by Thief players, even if they don’t realize what the actual cause is.

Einlanzer.1627:

I mean no offense

i am very offended

i demand an apology this instant

Einlanzer.1627:

but you don’t actually seem to be getting why this is an issue.

it’s an issue because PP sux

Einlanzer.1627:

It’s not simply a matter of needing to weave in Unloads to maximize your DPS. It’s a matter of having to perpetually spam Unload to even do reasonable damage.

there’s nothing wrong with this. by going PP you accept certain responsibilities and certain boons. not having to stand in someone’s face is a boon. having to very closely manage your initiative spending is a responsibility. this is an integral part of class/build diversity

Einlanzer.1627:

Not only does it mean the set has poor mobility (since Unload is a channel skill)

this is subjective. yeah, you need to channel your unloads and you can’t dodge without interrupting them, but you can stand on the other side of the planet and shoot the other guy. depending on where you are, this can be huge, and an opportunity you won’t otherwise get

Einlanzer.1627:

and poor sustained DPS (since Initiative is highly limited)

i like unload as an initiative-babysitting spec

Einlanzer.1627:

but it also renders utility impotent by indirectly making every other skill useless in comparison, since they all share a resource and continuing to damage your opponent is a lot more important than any momentary utility 90% of the time

that’s how utility works. you don’t always need it

Einlanzer.1627:

This is unique to both the Thief profession and the P/P weapon set.

come again?

Einlanzer.1627:

All reducing Unload’s Initiative cost will do is give P/P an overall DPS increase without doing anything to fix the actual problems discussed above.

i think you’re really understating how much changing the initiative cost of an ability can do

Einlanzer.1627:

Vital Shot probably does an average of 60% of the damage Unload does when it should be more like 80-90%

on what basis do you make this comparison
compared to other classes’ 1 skills? that’s completely unfair, other classes have a completely different ability system
compared to the other thief 1 skills? compared to sword 1, sure, but i’m inclined to say sword 1 is the outlier, not vital shot
pushing up vital shot’s damage by 50% would make PD way better than it is at the moment. sure, maybe that’s something that it needs, but we’re just discussing the balance state of unload at the moment

Einlanzer.1627:

(and Unload itself is probably a little weaker than it should be as well)

maybe, i wouldn’t object to a 5% or so buff

Einlanzer.1627:

This single fact results in all of the problems with the set that are routinely discussed by Thief players, even if they don’t realize what the actual cause is.

this line makes me think that you’ve built a mountain out of a molehill; that there’s a huge, underlying problem with PP (that only you can see) when really it’s just that unload is a bit too expensive and body shot is a bit crappy. even this analysis is unfair because body shot’s pretty nice to have as PD

Sarrs.4831:

Einlanzer.1627:

I mean no offense

i am very offended

i demand an apology this instant

Einlanzer.1627:

but you don’t actually seem to be getting why this is an issue.

it’s an issue because PP sux

Einlanzer.1627:

It’s not simply a matter of needing to weave in Unloads to maximize your DPS. It’s a matter of having to perpetually spam Unload to even do reasonable damage.

there’s nothing wrong with this. by going PP you accept certain responsibilities and certain boons. not having to stand in someone’s face is a boon. having to very closely manage your initiative spending is a responsibility. this is an integral part of class/build diversity

Einlanzer.1627:

Not only does it mean the set has poor mobility (since Unload is a channel skill)

this is subjective. yeah, you need to channel your unloads and you can’t dodge without interrupting them, but you can stand on the other side of the planet and shoot the other guy. depending on where you are, this can be huge, and an opportunity you won’t otherwise get

Einlanzer.1627:

and poor sustained DPS (since Initiative is highly limited)

i like unload as an initiative-babysitting spec

Einlanzer.1627:

but it also renders utility impotent by indirectly making every other skill useless in comparison, since they all share a resource and continuing to damage your opponent is a lot more important than any momentary utility 90% of the time

that’s how utility works. you don’t always need it

Einlanzer.1627:

This is unique to both the Thief profession and the P/P weapon set.

come again?

Einlanzer.1627:

All reducing Unload’s Initiative cost will do is give P/P an overall DPS increase without doing anything to fix the actual problems discussed above.

i think you’re really understating how much changing the initiative cost of an ability can do

Einlanzer.1627:

Vital Shot probably does an average of 60% of the damage Unload does when it should be more like 80-90%

on what basis do you make this comparison
compared to other classes’ 1 skills? that’s completely unfair, other classes have a completely different ability system
compared to the other thief 1 skills? compared to sword 1, sure, but i’m inclined to say sword 1 is the outlier, not vital shot
pushing up vital shot’s damage by 50% would make PD way better than it is at the moment. sure, maybe that’s something that it needs, but we’re just discussing the balance state of unload at the moment

Einlanzer.1627:

(and Unload itself is probably a little weaker than it should be as well)

maybe, i wouldn’t object to a 5% or so buff

Einlanzer.1627:

This single fact results in all of the problems with the set that are routinely discussed by Thief players, even if they don’t realize what the actual cause is.

this line makes me think that you’ve built a mountain out of a molehill; that there’s a huge, underlying problem with PP (that only you can see) when really it’s just that unload is a bit too expensive and body shot is a bit crappy. even this analysis is unfair because body shot’s pretty nice to have as PD

Wow, you still aren’t getting it. At all. I don’t know how else to break it down. Okay, I’ll try one more simple explanation:

Compared to every other set in the game, P/P forces you to sacrifice too much utility and mobility for damage, and sacrifice too much damage to get any mobility or utility. This is a problem caused almost entirely by Vital Shot being too weak, and it’s a problem that reducing the Initiative cost of Unload will do very little to address. It’s that simple.

Einlanzer.1627:

Wow, you still aren’t getting it. At all. I don’t know how else to break it down. Okay, I’ll try one more simple explanation:

Compared to every other set in the game, P/P forces you to sacrifice too much utility and mobility for damage, and sacrifice too much damage to get any mobility or utility. This is a problem caused almost entirely by Vital Shot being too weak, and it’s a problem that reducing the Initiative cost of Unload will do very little to address. It’s that simple.

Please try to keep your posts as clear and concise as possible. Also try not to be a condescending kitten. I know it’s fun, but please try.

Onto the actual content of your post;
Comparing Thief spreads with other classes’ spreads is unreasonable. Initiative is fundamentally different to how every other class operates. Compare apples to apples; compare thief weapon spreads to thief weapon spreads.

You’re looking at Vital Shot as though it exists in a vacuum. It doesn’t. This makes it incredibly difficult to make a change without said change having a lot of spillover. If you buff Vital Shot to make PP “balanced”, you now have to rebalance every PD skill to compensate for its new effectiveness. If you want to buff or change PP’s effectiveness, look at the unique skill that PP has- Unload.

Sarrs.4831:

Einlanzer.1627:

Wow, you still aren’t getting it. At all. I don’t know how else to break it down. Okay, I’ll try one more simple explanation:

Compared to every other set in the game, P/P forces you to sacrifice too much utility and mobility for damage, and sacrifice too much damage to get any mobility or utility. This is a problem caused almost entirely by Vital Shot being too weak, and it’s a problem that reducing the Initiative cost of Unload will do very little to address. It’s that simple.

Please try to keep your posts as clear and concise as possible. Also try not to be a condescending kitten. I know it’s fun, but please try.

Onto the actual content of your post;
Comparing Thief spreads with other classes’ spreads is unreasonable. Initiative is fundamentally different to how every other class operates. Compare apples to apples; compare thief weapon spreads to thief weapon spreads.

You’re looking at Vital Shot as though it exists in a vacuum. It doesn’t. This makes it incredibly difficult to make a change without said change having a lot of spillover. If you buff Vital Shot to make PP “balanced”, you now have to rebalance every PD skill to compensate for its new effectiveness. If you want to buff or change PP’s effectiveness, look at the unique skill that PP has- Unload.

You can try rationalizing it all you want – always having to choose between having crippled utility and mediocre damage or mediocre utility and terrible damage is broken. No, you don’t have to rebalance everything, just Sneak Attack. And Unload isn’t the problem with P/P. Vital Shot is. There’s nothing else to be said about it. Bye.

Einlanzer.1627:

You can try rationalizing it all you want – always having to choose between having crippled utility and mediocre damage or mediocre utility and terrible damage is broken. No, you don’t have to rebalance everything, just Sneak Attack. And Unload isn’t the problem with P/P. Vital Shot is. There’s nothing else to be said about it. Bye.

You’re now saying that 5 abilities are the problem with P/P, not just one.

Sarrs.4831:

Einlanzer.1627:

You can try rationalizing it all you want – always having to choose between having crippled utility and mediocre damage or mediocre utility and terrible damage is broken. No, you don’t have to rebalance everything, just Sneak Attack. And Unload isn’t the problem with P/P. Vital Shot is. There’s nothing else to be said about it. Bye.

You’re now saying that 5 abilities are the problem with P/P, not just one.

I never said that, and I’m not now. P/P’s utility is fair if you look at the skills independently, but it’s functionally crappy- not because the skills themselves suck, but because they all share a resource with the primary damage skill. As you don’t seem to get, this is unique to the Thief profession due to how Initiative works. It’s also (mostly) unique among thief weapons because the others properly use the autoattack for standard damage output with other skills being supplementary based on tactical openings or special needs, which is very obviously how it should work.

If Initiative is going to work well as a resource, the design has to be that the #1 skill is always the standard, bread and butter damage source, with the #2 – #5 skills offering supplementary utility or damage based on different tactical contexts. Vital Shot’s weakness means P/P doesn’t function that way, which ruins the set’s general playability. The reason P/D works well in comparison is because Vital Shot is supplemented by various sources that do not cost Initiative like the Sneak Attack and Caltrops, which are arguably OP as a utility skill.

Einlanzer.1627:

I never said that, and I’m not now.

You asserted that P/P has ‘crippled utility and mediocre damage’ or ‘mediocre utility and terrible damage’.

If you push up Vital Shot’s damage to ‘mediocre’ then you still end up with ‘mediocre utility and mediocre damage’, and while that is stronger, I’d barely call it much of an improvement. If you’re still dumping all your initiative into Unload, then you end up in the same boat- Mediocre damage and crappy utility, because you haven’t adjusted Unload.

Einlanzer.1627:

P/P’s utility is fair if you look at the skills independently, but it’s functionally crappy- not because the skills themselves suck, but because they all share a resource with the primary damage skill. As you don’t seem to get, this is unique to the Thief profession due to how Initiative works. It’s also (mostly) unique among thief weapons because the others properly use the autoattack for standard damage output with other skills being supplementary based on tactical openings or special needs, which is very obviously how it should work.

I don’t understand why you keep saying I don’t ‘get it’. I get what you’re saying, you have to choose between spending your initiative on utility and damage. I just disagree with your position that this is not how PP is intended to operate. Again; initiative management is the thing you have to do in exchange for PP’s native benefits as a ranged power set.

Einlanzer.1627:

If Initiative is going to work well as a resource, the design has to be that the #1 skill is always the standard, bread and butter damage source, with the #2 – #5 skills offering supplementary utility or damage based on different tactical contexts.

With this in mind, what is Unload supposed to be? Pistol Whip DPS levels of burst?

Einlanzer.1627:

Vital Shot’s weakness means P/P doesn’t function that way, which ruins the set’s general playability. The reason P/D works well in comparison is because Vital Shot is supplemented by various sources that do not cost Initiative like the Sneak Attack and Caltrops, which are arguably OP as a utility skill.

P/D works well in comparison because it gears to exploit the conditions that its core abilities (Vital Shot, Sneak Attack and Shadow Strike) cause, making the best of everything that the pistol mainhand has to offer. It also uses the thief’s core defensive mechanic (stealth) better.

Also, “Sneak Attack doesn’t cost Initiative”? Stealth costs anywhere from 0 to 9 initiative to enter, and if it costs 0 initiative, that’s because you’re blowing a potentially very important cooldown. Saying it’s free is hardly a fair analysis.

Sarrs.4831:

If you push up Vital Shot’s damage to ‘mediocre’ then you still end up with ‘mediocre utility and mediocre damage’, and while that is stronger, I’d barely call it much of an improvement. If you’re still dumping all your initiative into Unload, then you end up in the same boat- Mediocre damage and crappy utility, because you haven’t adjusted Unload.

Actually, mediocre damage and mediocre utility simultaneously would be a significant improvement, considering that by ‘mediocre’, I actually mean average. Furthermore, you don’t have infinite Initiative so by buffing Vital Shot you are buffing the DPS of the set even if you are Unload spamming. Unload may could use a slight damage buff, but it’s not nearly as in dire need of one as Vital Shot is. Unload should be stronger than Vital Shot, but not by as much as it is currently. That’s the entire problem.

Sarrs.4831:

I don’t understand why you keep saying I don’t ‘get it’. I get what you’re saying, you have to choose between spending your initiative on utility and damage. I just disagree with your position that this is not how PP is intended to operate. Again; initiative management is the thing you have to do in exchange for PP’s native benefits as a ranged power set.

I keep saying it because you clearly don’t. Why would P/P be the only set in the entire game that enforces a massive dichotomy between damage and utility, especially when its top-end damage even when sacrificing all utility and mobility isn’t even that great? It’s not intended, it’s an oversight.

Sarrs.4831:

With this in mind, what is Unload supposed to be? Pistol Whip DPS levels of burst?

It should be utilitarian, like every other non-#1 skill in the Thief’s repertoire. It should be there for when you need burst in a pinch or to provide a slight boost to overall DPS when you don’t need to move around or access any utility. This isn’t rocket science.

Sarrs.4831:

P/D works well in comparison because it gears to exploit the conditions that its core abilities (Vital Shot, Sneak Attack and Shadow Strike) cause, making the best of everything that the pistol mainhand has to offer. It also uses the thief’s core defensive mechanic (stealth) better.
Also, “Sneak Attack doesn’t cost Initiative”? Stealth costs anywhere from 0 to 9 initiative to enter, and if it costs 0 initiative, that’s because you’re blowing a potentially very important cooldown. Saying it’s free is hardly a fair analysis.

This is a dumb argument. There are multitudes of ways for Thieves to enter stealth without spending Initiative, and even if you do it by using a ‘very important cooldown’, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re blowing it – you may be getting maximum benefit from it or you may not have any need for it at all.

The point is that P/D has easier access to Sneak Attack than P/P AND benefits more from using it. Additionally, condition damage is more passive which means you don’t have to stand still and channel something to generate it AND it synergizes really well with Caltrops, especially in PvE. These are all reasons why P/D works better.

Einlanzer.1627:

The point is that P/D has easier access to Sneak Attack than P/P AND benefits more from using it. Additionally, condition damage is more passive which means you don’t have to stand still and channel something to generate it AND it synergizes really well with Caltrops, especially in PvE. These are all reasons why P/D works better.

so basically p/d’s good. we know. in fact, it’s a very good reason not to adjust Vital Shot because buffing p/d’s 1 skill to do 33-50% more direct damage would be a pretty huge buff.