To clear the air about Berserker
we dont need an agro system we just need a revalorised control. Minion master necromancer,. turret enginer, hammer warrior and wall guardian all shine in this cathegory. One truth is that every possible target reduce the odds that YOU are the one to get hit and that stunlock is an effective way to tank a foe. Sure theil need to weaken that anti CC effect.
Kill the zerkerlike gear critical damage by reducing each piece crit damage bonus to 1% at best and you likely made going full dps on equal level as going support or control. Sure youl likely still take down those boss faster kitten zerker dps if you fight perfectly, however youl actualy get to REALY feel the risk this spec incurs without having a proper support or a control spec such as a hammer warrior or a minion master around because as someone said elsewhere on this forum, having less dps also put the team at more risk. Damage has to be helped by control to actualy keep doing the damage without effort and with minimal risk and both needs to be supported by a decent support to keep things running smoothly.
Crystal Desert, The Darknest Community P.E.T.A.
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
(edited by kyubi.3620)
What you, and the other zerkernerfers want is a trinity system where any class can fulfill any of the trinity roles but that is not the game that Anet promise and not the game Anet delivered.
Actually we want a PvE system where control and support have some value. Right now there is no reason to spec into more support or control, or gear for support or control. If you go full zerker, and all party members are full zerker, everything melts before it can pose a threat. That is not interesting gameplay.
I don’t want the berserker gearset to be nerfed. I want the mob AI to be less dumb and know how to counter, cleanse and walk out of AoE fields.
Being a glass cannon should be a risk vs rewards decision. Right now being in a group of glass cannons yields more rewards (faster runs) and less risk (boss dies before it can kill). That’s the only problem with the zerker meta.
I consider this post of mine to have effectively put this debate to bed. Mods can feel free to sticky my post and close the thread.
Funny guy. At least understand the rationale before you dismiss it.
P.S. I always run full zerker mesmer. Sw/Fo Sw/Sw with reflection .. its the only real way to play in PvE and that’s a kitten shame.
You play a sword focus reflect mesmer and don’t already consider yourself bringing the control and support you want so badly? To me that’s precisely what control and support is. You control the mobs into a corner/wall using focus, and you support your team with reflections. Why do you feel you need tank stats to be viable to accomplish this?
What you, and the other zerkernerfers want is a trinity system where any class can fulfill any of the trinity roles but that is not the game that Anet promise and not the game Anet delivered.
Actually we want a PvE system where control and support have some value. Right now there is no reason to spec into more support or control, or gear for support or control. If you go full zerker, and all party members are full zerker, everything melts before it can pose a threat. That is not interesting gameplay.
I don’t want the berserker gearset to be nerfed. I want the mob AI to be less dumb and know how to counter, cleanse and walk out of AoE fields.
Being a glass cannon should be a risk vs rewards decision. Right now being in a group of glass cannons yields more rewards (faster runs) and less risk (boss dies before it can kill). That’s the only problem with the zerker meta.
I consider this post of mine to have effectively put this debate to bed. Mods can feel free to sticky my post and close the thread.
Funny guy. At least understand the rationale before you dismiss it.
P.S. I always run full zerker mesmer. Sw/Fo Sw/Sw with reflection .. its the only real way to play in PvE and that’s a kitten shame.
Kill the dps damage does and make them only 1.5 time better then control at best with very glassy build and you just made every fight treatening to a full dps team and easyer to a support/control team with a few other damage or control user. All we need to do is put all critical damage item to 1% crit damage (2% on weapons) and well have fixed that issue of ‘’no danger when i run full dps’’ for good
Having some class like minion master/ hammer warrior / trap ranger around would actualy perfectly cope for your ’’control’’ issue but right now since you guys can do the whole game easymode by outburning the bosses you dont even think about it. lets see what happens once you can no longuer burn a boss down without taking heavy risk. All fight will take barely less time then if you ran it with a balanced team and without decent support and control youl likely wipe from behing outdamaged by the very boss you brought in the corner to deal a easy dps.
Crystal Desert, The Darknest Community P.E.T.A.
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
(edited by kyubi.3620)
Keep in mind that many players came from WoW, or similar games where the dps meter was everything, with a background like that we are kind of hard-wired for maximizing dps.
The topic opener has many valid points, but after more than a year of zerker meta I don’t see how this can work out well for the game. I find it extremely unlikely that anet would rework all the normal dungeons to support less dmg heavy setups. Way too many bosses with insane HP pools, I don’t even want to attempt them with a team that has 40% less dps than what we we have now, it would be just more boring than ever.
Also I just spent 600g on ascended zerk Armor. It’s really fantastic timing to start messing up the zerker status quo, just when ppl had time to farm for ascended armor. I’m fairly sure I’m not the only one with this potential problem.
We dont need to kill the zerker spec we just need to bring it back on equal lvl with other gear and class options wich may not actualy use critical damage. Youl still be perfectly able to run pure damage if they nerf it, it just mean youl get to run more often with people using other stuff then a maximised dps team.
Crystal Desert, The Darknest Community P.E.T.A.
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
Active defense actually requires some level of skill reacting to enemy tells and the situation, passive defense relying on armor and heal button doesn’t require nearly as much, if anything at all.
You play a sword focus reflect mesmer and don’t already consider yourself bringing the control and support you want so badly? To me that’s precisely what control and support is. You control the mobs into a corner/wall using focus, and you support your team with reflections. Why do you feel you need tank stats to be viable to accomplish this?
Exactly this. Why is there this notion that you NEED tank stats ALONG with dps stats? That just isn’t going to happen.
With the way PvE is setup, it makes more sense to gear towards DPS stats and group utility traits. People seem to want both survival stats, utilities, and “support” for their group. News flash: that isn’t going to happen. You can’t have your Celestial and eat it too.
People are too focused on old trinity mechanics of stat based dmg mitigation. Get with the flow: dps is a form of dmg mitigation, party utilities(ie non-selfish) are dmg mitigation. It’s like “peace through superior firepower”.
People need to either wake up and adapt or they need to go back to whatever trinity based MMO they came from.
Active defense actually requires some level of skill reacting to enemy tells and the situation, passive defense relying on armor and heal button doesn’t require nearly as much, if anything at all.
What about minions and stuns is that what you call a ‘’passive defence’’? Guild wars has always ran tanking on crowd control and distracting scapegoat such as minion masters and hammer warrior wich btway arent this tanky by themselves but keep the mobs unable to deal damage to the party.
We dont need a holy trinity we just need to tone down damage so that it doesnt becomes the only possible defence. At this point going tanking gear will not hold any better meaning then actualy running DPS gear long as the dps deals the damage and the control keeps the mob in check. It doesnt realy mather what the hammer warrior wears long as the mob keep getting knockdowned while the dagger thief or the other warrior does his job.
Crystal Desert, The Darknest Community P.E.T.A.
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
(edited by kyubi.3620)
You play a sword focus reflect mesmer and don’t already consider yourself bringing the control and support you want so badly? To me that’s precisely what control and support is. You control the mobs into a corner/wall using focus, and you support your team with reflections. Why do you feel you need tank stats to be viable to accomplish this?
Of course I bring some control, with practically no DPS cost for my class. Can we say the same of other classes? Can I even run a non-reflect mesmer in a group without getting frowned upon?
Like I said before. Its all about risk vs reward. Right now there is less risk in berserker gear and meta specs and more rewards. You want to run with five zerkers only. If anyone in the group is support or PVT, the fights are longer and people die. Why? Because passive stats like toughness and vitality have little value compared to boss damage. The longer it lives, the more of it’s script it plays and you eventually run out of active counters.
I’d like to see more risk overall. I’d like to see intelligent AI that isn’t so easy to manipulate. I’d like to see smaller and smarter attacks from the boss. No random AoE on the ground.. let it do combos like a snare or stun then an AoE on your face. It should single out players, it should block or reflect range attacks. It should know when to retreat and heal, hide behind cover, how to knock players off ledges. It would make a more interesting game, where boons and healing builds/gear could have some value to the group instead of being only detrimental.
Hell, I wish PvE was more like WvW.
(edited by Xia.3485)
Tanking gear actual does have better meaning than DPS gear if need more survivability to complete the content if you are bad. Go and watch Arah path 2 with zero dodges video, seriously. People who don’t want to have to dodge attacks can run tanky gear at the price of running paths a bit longer. I think that’s fair.
It’s not how the game was advertised. We were told “any class can play any role” and right now that is ludicrous because DPS builds are far superior to anything else.
100% wrong. You are misquoting and misremembering. The promise was “no trinity, no dedicated roles, all classes will provide dps, healing, support, cc”
This does not mean “anything goes all classes can fulfill any role.” It means there are no roles and all characters are expected to DPS (zerker meta: check), Support (zerker meta: check), CC (zerker meta: check), and heal (zerker meta: check).
What you, and the other zerkernerfers want is a trinity system where any class can fulfill any of the trinity roles but that is not the game that Anet promise and not the game Anet delivered.
I consider this post of mine to have effectively put this debate to bed. Mods can feel free to sticky my post and close the thread.
Right now every class in PvE specs for DPS and support and the only valid stat combo is Berserkers.
That’s not the system I expected based on advertisements* and it’s not the way I believe ArenaNet intended it. The game is skill based and hence Berserker will always be the most effective combo, but I do not think they intended running Berserker to be as easy as it is now courtesy of stacking. This ultimately kills build diversity because there is currently a low skill-cap needed to run Berserker so that any average Joe can use it instead of only the top 15% of players.
I’m not asking them to kill Berserkers. I run Berserkers. I understand it is the most effective stat combo and the builds you and your co-members of DnT put out are fantastic. But the low-skill cap needed to use it right now will ultimately kill the PvE side game.
*sources: http://youtu.be/aDyKPXjA9eU?t=1m7s
This game is not about out-DPSing you. It’s about out-flashing you.
Keep in mind that many players came from WoW, or similar games where the dps meter was everything, with a background like that we are kind of hard-wired for maximizing dps.
The topic opener has many valid points, but after more than a year of zerker meta I don’t see how this can work out well for the game. I find it extremely unlikely that anet would rework all the normal dungeons to support less dmg heavy setups. Way too many bosses with insane HP pools, I don’t even want to attempt them with a team that has 40% less dps than what we we have now, it would be just more boring than ever.
Also I just spent 600g on ascended zerk Armor. It’s really fantastic timing to start messing up the zerker status quo, just when ppl had time to farm for ascended armor. I’m fairly sure I’m not the only one with this potential problem.
Because DPS IS everything.
Support does not win fights.
Control does not win fights.
Reducing the enemy HP to zero is the entire goal of a fight, and the most important thing in doing that is damage. Everything else is just a vehicle to deliver as much damage as possible while not dying.
Tanking gear actual does have better meaning than DPS gear if need more survivability to complete the content if you are bad. Go and watch Arah path 2 with zero dodges video, seriously. People who don’t want to have to dodge attacks can run tanky gear at the price of running paths a bit longer. I think that’s fair.
Exactly. If you choose to afk tank, then your reward will be a longer run. People ranting for equal completion times while afking are delusional.
What you, and the other zerkernerfers want is a trinity system where any class can fulfill any of the trinity roles but that is not the game that Anet promise and not the game Anet delivered.
Actually we want a PvE system where control and support have some value.
They do already. Try speed running a dungeon with no CC, no reflects, no group buffing, no group debuffing. It wouldn’t work exceptionally well. Sounds like you don’t understand the concept.
Right now there is no reason to spec into more support or control, or gear for support or control.
How do you gear for control? Every stat in the game, with the exception of Healing Power and Boon Duration, are on a spectrum of offense and defense. You couldn’t “gear for control” if you wanted to.
If you go full zerker, and all party members are full zerker, everything melts before it can pose a threat. That is not interesting gameplay.
That really isn’t true. There are many, many encounters where you have to dodge properly or else your full zerker party wipes. I would say most boss encounters are like that, actually.
And you know what enables zerker parties to dps so efficiently? Here is a hint: the overwhelming control and support that a good build provides which you don’t believe exists.
I don’t want the berserker gearset to be nerfed. I want the mob AI to be less dumb and know how to counter, cleanse and walk out of AoE fields.
Fine by me.
Being a glass cannon should be a risk vs rewards decision. Right now being in a group of glass cannons yields more rewards (faster runs) and less risk (boss dies before it can kill). That’s the only problem with the zerker meta.
I thought bad zerkers were everywhere and dead dps is no dps? The stereotypical “bad zerker” is the evidence that there IS a risk/reward function happening. The difference is all the “good zerkers” are collecting the reward, and people don’t see to like that.
P.S. I always run full zerker mesmer. Sw/Fo Sw/Sw with reflection .. its the only real way to play in PvE and that’s a kitten shame.
If you didn’t care about control and support, you would use Sword/Sword, Sword/Pistol, you would run 20/30/0/0/20 with 4 Mantras and you would do substantially more dps. You realize you just put your foot in your mouth, right?
edit: to be more clear, you probably run a build with 20+ in Inspiration, and you use a low DPS weapon, Focus. This is you balancing the risk/reward. You realized, rightly so, that the team is better when you sacrifice some personal dps in order to CONTROL and SUPPORT your party. Just because you don’t need to wear Clerics gear to do it doesn’t mean you didn’t do it, and it doesn’t mean you didn’t make a sacrifice.
edit#2
And I think that lays some of the problems. I mentioned above and I’ll say again. Right now reflect/evade/aegis etc are pretty much independent from stats. Yes, boon duration affect to some degree but not game changing. Trait passive isn’t that important either. Result in any build can bring those “supports” without sacrificing much stats.
Not true. Mesmers waste 20 trait points in a non-dps line in order to get the necessary support. Guardians put a minimum of 10 points into a non-dps traitline to get the necessary support, usually 20+ for even more.
Just because they don’t gear for control or support, does not mean they are not sacrificing a lot of DPS to acquire it.
(edited by Nike Porphyrogenita.8137)
Exactly. If you choose to afk tank, then your reward will be a longer run. People ranting for equal completion times while afking are delusional.
Is that what the OP is asking for? Is that what I’m asking for? How many in this thread want easy rewards and AFK gameplay?
Nice hyperbole BTW. Wanting more build diversity and better gameplay isn’t asking for an easier game, quite the contrary actually.
I want the rewards of running full zerker to be the same as now. I just want the risks to increase, instead of decreasing like it is now. 5 zerker runs? Makes the game EZ mode.
People are too focused on old trinity mechanics of stat based dmg mitigation. Get with the flow: dps is a form of dmg mitigation, party utilities(ie non-selfish) are dmg mitigation. It’s like “peace through superior firepower”.
Indeed. That is what the OP was saying as well. It’s a pity most people don’t read his post in full. To recap the OP’s point: zerker doesn’t need changing, class balance is relatively fine as is. It’s mob mechanics and defense mechanics that need changing. In PvE, there is no real risk to choosing zerker over any other stat combination. However, ideally, it should be really hard to play full zerker and get away with it (while staying in one piece). If the meta is changed, provided not too radically, those that struggle with the new difficulty level of zerker can swap their zerker trinkets to survivability trinkets to avoid the need to craft a whole new ascended armor set.
You play a sword focus reflect mesmer and don’t already consider yourself bringing the control and support you want so badly? To me that’s precisely what control and support is. You control the mobs into a corner/wall using focus, and you support your team with reflections. Why do you feel you need tank stats to be viable to accomplish this?
Exactly this. Why is there this notion that you NEED tank stats ALONG with dps stats? That just isn’t going to happen.
With the way PvE is setup, it makes more sense to gear towards DPS stats and group utility traits. People seem to want both survival stats, utilities, and “support” for their group. News flash: that isn’t going to happen. You can’t have your Celestial and eat it too.
People are too focused on old trinity mechanics of stat based dmg mitigation. Get with the flow: dps is a form of dmg mitigation, party utilities(ie non-selfish) are dmg mitigation. It’s like “peace through superior firepower”.
People need to either wake up and adapt or they need to go back to whatever trinity based MMO they came from.
And I think that lays some of the problems. I mentioned above and I’ll say again. Right now reflect/evade/aegis etc are pretty much independent from stats. Yes, boon duration affect to some degree but not game changing. Trait passive isn’t that important either. Result in any build can bring those “supports” without sacrificing much stats.
And no, it’s not right. A build becomes imba when it can access too many things at once. For example in pvp, the old hambow having access to good damage ALSO good cc, now you know what happen to them. Same in pve, if a class has good utilities like reflect, the dps or other stats should be bought down to equal it out. Right now, I don’t see it balanced this way. Warrior has great party buff while having good burst dps, many evade skills, god mobilities. Guardian has awesome reflects, party support, block/vigor/aegis in the world while having good dps.
There isn’t a tl;dr because it’s a tough issue, and if it could be summed up that easily, we wouldn’t be dealing with the mess we’re dealing with.
Ardeth, Sylvari Mesmer
Tarnished Coast
Tarnished Coast
There isn’t a tl;dr because it’s a tough issue, and if it could be summed up that easily, we wouldn’t be dealing with the mess we’re dealing with.
That’s the thing though, only some people think it’s a mess.
The only ‘mess’ as far as I’m concerned with GW2 is how conditions are handled, everything else is running quite well.
They do already. Try speed running a dungeon with no CC, no reflects, no group buffing, no group debuffing. It wouldn’t work exceptionally well. Sounds like you don’t understand the concept.
And all this support and control is acquired by certain key classes with no DPS cost at all. Its not for nothing I see most groups being mesmer, guardian and warriors. The fact there is no gear to buff control is also a problem.
That really isn’t true. There are many, many encounters where you have to dodge properly or else your full zerker party wipes. I would say most boss encounters are like that, actually.
Not saying running five zerkers requires no skill. But it is easier. PvT goes so far, the boss will still kill you if you can’t evade certain key abilities. With five zerkers, the fight is much shorter, so those abilities are triggered less often.
I thought bad zerkers were everywhere and dead dps is no dps? The stereotypical “bad zerker” is the evidence that there IS a risk/reward function happening. The difference is all the “good zerkers” are collecting the reward, and people don’t see to like that.
Actually, anyone who’s used to running in zerker groups who pugs with random builds will suddenly face a much more difficult encounter. So you die blaming the PVT for not playing ball and killing the boss fast enough, which is true. The PVT players see you downed all the time and draw different conclusions. Right now, zerker is the optimal option. Some PVT gear while learning, but berserker gear and meta specs are the only way really.
If you didn’t care about control and support, you would use Sword/Sword, Sword/Pistol, you would run 20/30/0/0/20 with 4 Mantras and you would do substantially more dps. You realize you just put your foot in your mouth, right?
Don’t underestimate the extra damage I deal from those reflections. (or I’m blinded by large numbers.. for things like this I wish I hate a meter.)
Look I understand what you’re saying. But seriously, there is very little choice while running any class right now. And some classes, engineer, necro.. are shunned from parties, and rightly so. That’s bad game design. I don’t blame the players, I blame the system.
(edited by Xia.3485)
If mitigation becomes important, the new meta will be 4 zerkers (or rampagers or whatever gear setup is the new king) and a boon duration guardian or similar for perma protection. Even then that boon duration guard is likely to put the rest of his stats and build towards dps.
Right now every class in PvE specs for DPS and support and the only valid stat combo is Berserkers.
That’s not the system I expected based on advertisements* and it’s not the way I believe ArenaNet intended it. The game is skill based and hence Berserker will always be the most effective combo, but I do not think they intended running Berserker to be as easy as it is now courtesy of stacking. This ultimately kills build diversity because there is currently a low skill-cap needed to run Berserker so that any average Joe can use it instead of only the top 15% of players.
I’m not asking them to kill Berserkers. I run Berserkers. I understand it is the most effective stat combo and the builds you and your co-members of DnT put out are fantastic. But the low-skill cap needed to use it right now will ultimately kill the PvE side game.
*sources: http://youtu.be/aDyKPXjA9eU?t=1m7s
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valid
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/optimal
I would have thought you had been told that already.
Gear is only the part of the build diversity. Instead of fixing something that’s not broken anet should improve less used traits, weapons, utilities and revamp few mechanics like reflects, unshakeable and facetanking by pvt elitists because they are very toxic community.
Skill cap isn’t lower when you run berserker’s instead of suboptimal yet still valid gears. The game has innate extremely low skill cap.
Right now every class in PvE specs for DPS and support and the only valid stat combo is Berserkers.
That’s not the system I expected based on advertisements* and it’s not the way I believe ArenaNet intended it. The game is skill based and hence Berserker will always be the most effective combo, but I do not think they intended running Berserker to be as easy as it is now courtesy of stacking. This ultimately kills build diversity because there is currently a low skill-cap needed to run Berserker so that any average Joe can use it instead of only the top 15% of players.
I’m not asking them to kill Berserkers. I run Berserkers. I understand it is the most effective stat combo and the builds you and your co-members of DnT put out are fantastic. But the low-skill cap needed to use it right now will ultimately kill the PvE side game.
*sources: http://youtu.be/aDyKPXjA9eU?t=1m7s
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valid
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/optimalI would have thought you had been told that already.
Gear is only the part of the build diversity. Instead of fixing something that’s not broken anet should improve less used traits, weapons, utilities and revamp few mechanics like reflects, unshakeable and facetanking by pvt elitists because they are very toxic community.
Skill cap isn’t lower when you run berserker’s instead of suboptimal yet still valid gears. The game has innate extremely low skill cap.
I definitely agree with anet improving traits.
Fully half of the traits on my Warrior and on my Engi are completely and utterly useless. For every single build.
And all this support and control is acquired by certain key classes with no DPS cost at all. Its not for nothing I see most groups being mesmer, guardian and warriors. The fact there is no gear to buff control is also a problem.
Because controls aren’t tied to any gear except one sigil? Also, if you “see” most groups of w/g/m you should also “see” countless of zerkers sniffing flowers when a mighty team of pvt, clerics and other valid gear users slay bosses. We all heard stories how dirty scums zerkers are dying after few seconds.
Not saying running five zerkers requires no skill. But it is easier. PvT goes so far, the boss will still kill you if you can’t evade certain key abilities. With five zerkers, the fight is much shorter, so those abilities are triggered less often.
Really? Because I’ve seen a movie where people didn’t dodge a single time in 30 minutes of various boss fights.
Actually, anyone who’s used to running in zerker groups who pugs with random builds will suddenly face a much more difficult encounter. So you die blaming the PVT for not playing ball and killing the boss fast enough, which is true. The PVT players see you downed all the time and draw different conclusions. Right now, zerker is the optimal option. Some PVT gear while learning, but berserker gear and meta specs are the only way really.
They die because they are bad and there is a risk in running glass cannons. How do I know it? Sometimes I do charity runs with pvt elitists and somehow I die as the last person. As a 10k hp ele.
Look I understand what you’re saying. But seriously, there is very little choice while running any class right now. And some classes, engineer, necro.. are shunned from parties, and rightly so. That’s bad game design. I don’t blame the players, I blame the system.
Only necros are being shunned, rest are being shunned by zerker parties who will blame the failure on the low amount of dps.
Actually we want a PvE system where control and support have some value. Right now there is no reason to spec into more support or control, or gear for support or control. If you go full zerker, and all party members are full zerker, everything melts before it can pose a threat. That is not interesting gameplay.
Ever watched how zerker parties kill high level fotm bosses like shaman, mossman and archdiviner? Because I’m pretty sure most zerker party take their time to kill them.
Ever watched how zerker parties kill high level fotm bosses like shaman, mossman and archdiviner? Because I’m pretty sure most zerker party take their time to kill them.
Its nice of you to find the exception of the rule. But in high level of fotm, VT stats yield no benefit either so the point is moot.
I’m more concerned with the other dungeons really, where the zerker meta is causing a lot of friction in the player base.. and limiting options. I’m fine with very high end fractals requiring key specs and composition. Its a problem when heavy zerker only is “required” for other dungeons.
But then, between choosing a 15 minute run or an hour one, which would you choose? That’s what needs to be addressed. There should be more than one way to skin a cat.
Really? Because I’ve seen a movie where people didn’t dodge a single time in 30 minutes of various boss fights.
There are a few fights I don’t dodge either. The crushers in Arah p3 being the most obvious. Lets see.. dodge or Illusionary Riposte? dodge or Blurred Frenzy? Its obvious which is better no?
(edited by Xia.3485)
But then, between choosing a 15 minute run or an hour one, which would you choose? That’s what needs to be addressed. There should be more than one way to skin a cat.
If you don’t have enough skill to wear the gear to do it in 15 minutes and all you would do is die over and over and over…. I would take the hour run in tankier gear.
But then, between choosing a 15 minute run or an hour one, which would you choose? That’s what needs to be addressed. There should be more than one way to skin a cat.
Judging by my limited experience with “experienced zerkers” I’d pick one hour run because 15 minutes run would not happen.
If you don’t have enough skill to wear the gear to do it in 15 minutes and all you would do is die over and over and over…. I would take the hour run in tankier gear.
Here again, don’t misunderstand that I want to lower the skill cap to clear content. Skill being equal you’ll always choose zerker, always. And with current encounter mechanics, boss AI and boss health pool, rightly so.
… boss AI.. that’s what needs to change. Can you wear full zerker in a WvW zerg? Sure, if you want to rally a large number of enemy combatants when you go down, and you will go down. Can you solo roam in WvW in zerker, yes, absolutely and quite efficiently. There should be a trade-off. Two ways of contributing that are on equal terms, or close to.
But with random boss AoE, scripted fights and lacklustre AI in PVE content.. well.. that can’t exist right now in current PvE content, and that’s the problem.
But with random boss AoE, scripted fights and lacklustre AI in PVE content.. well.. that can’t exist right now in current PvE content, and that’s the problem.
Oh, so you say it isn’t the fault of the gear itself?
Part of the problem with “play how you want” is that build flexibility is significantly and artificially inhibited.
GW1 was actually like this for a very brief time – you had to earn some sort of “play points” or something to respec your character. It was only a month or two after release that they allowed you to assign your skill points freely between instances.
Because of the number of skills and the dual professions, the meta was always changing and creative builds were always emerging.
The simplified nature of GW2 and the lack of build flexibility pushes players to specialize in a specific meta rather than just loading a template and swapping your gear (which should also have templates).
I had dozens and dozens of templates for my GW1 Elementalist (nuker, terra tank, perma shadow form, etc) but my GW2 Guardian runs DPS only and always because as much as I’d like to play around with some builds, the game makes it a hassle and there really is no point.
GW1 had so much variety in zones that you had to carefully outfit your character to go to Underworld or Fissure of Woe or to run certain missions. There was no one build that worked equally well in every area and part of the fun was working out the kinks and trying to refine things until your build was as good as it can be.
There is almost nothing in the PVE content that challenges a zerker Guardian, and if there is, I can swap around some gear and take care of it.
We need more creative enemies – just off the top of my head:
1. Mobs that are healed by critical hits but very vulnerable to conditions.
2. Swarm style encounters where “death by a thousand cuts” is a threat that an Aegis won’t counter effectively.
3. Mob teams that remove blind and use CC and conditions against players.
Also:
1. Why is endurance ONLY used for dodging? There should be more ways to gain it, and more ways to lose it and it should be useful for at least one or two other things.
2. Why should Aegis absorb all damage? GW1 had skills that would limit an attack to 10% of your health. Maybe clipping spike damage would be better than blocking all damage.
3. Why does retaliation only reflect 33% of the damage? This should scale with perhaps Toughness and Power or Healing – perhaps Healing makes Retaliation heal you, Power makes it damage the enemy and Toughness makes it absorb damage – all at the same time based on how much you invest in each stat.
Can you wear full zerker in a WvW zerg? Sure, if you want to rally a large number of enemy combatants when you go down, and you will go down. Can you solo roam in WvW in zerker, yes, absolutely and quite efficiently. There should be a trade-off. Two ways of contributing that are on equal terms, or close to.
This isn’t really the best example.
One of the main reasons why zeker doesn’t work in zergs is because it’s just a complete mess. You can’t see attacks incoming, when you swing your weapon you automatically trigger 5 retaliation procs, …
Even with some tactics and coordination, WvW zerging is still one of the most passive combat scenarios across the game. I respect (not really, but I try) a lot people liking it, but it’s a gameplay that should be disencouraged on any controlled enviroment, like dungeons, where there’s no excuse at all to miss active defenses.
Oh, so you say it isn’t the fault of the gear itself?
Its nice to know you’re replying without reading. I’m done here.
The reason why Zerker gear is popular is because PvE is in a general way, too easy.
Every game, every class, every RPG, players always build themselves with the bare minimum threshold to survive, and add every last point to DPS.
Since PvE content is in a general way too easy, people just build for full offense.
Take Tequatl as an example. Crits doesn’t work on him. If every dungeon boss were to have that characteristic, do you think people would carry on zerkers?
In fact, if every boss were to be as hard as him, people would actually feel forced to use a more defensive gear because it would be extremely hard sustain yourself without some sort of defense.
PvE on GW2 is extremely forgiven. I am not saying that we don’t have hard content here, we do.
But other games have longer dungeons, unforgiving scenarios and bosses with absurdly high HP and skills that can one shoot even a unprepared bulky player. Can you even list any boss like that here?
BTW, if we really start having more dungeon bosses that zerker doesn’t work, people will just start using Soldier, Dire and Carrion. Which are the next in line following the same logic.
If they bother doing the dungeon at all, the only dungeons in the game that offer any challenge are often ignored for the easy “Zerk-friendly” ones.
I’ve read through the whole OP’s post and I do have to admit he has done a nice job analyzing the game mechanics, but ultimately worked with the wrong data, seeing as it has been proven that for majority of PVE content defensive gear setups do not need any active defenses, healing and tanking gear do suffice (watch the Lupicus without any dodges with 5 clerics dudes video in the other zerker thread), which ultimately renders your argument invalid.
[Path] of the Immortals – a guild for veterans – Join us
[S]illy [L]ittle [U]gly [T]rolls – our little dungeon forum community
“My mind has left, my body follows”
[S]illy [L]ittle [U]gly [T]rolls – our little dungeon forum community
“My mind has left, my body follows”
I still don’t agree there is a problem that needs fixing, other than making bad builds like condi beter.
I like the way it is now. I like zerk builds. Its like playing an NES game. We die fast, and so do enemies.
Don’t reduce the effectiveness of zerk, just buff the bad builds.
Removing stat combinations with critical damage would be a big change and would probably make things more interesting by not allowing extreme speedkills (with enemies not having almost time to react) and nerfing reflect in a quite strong way.
How would that make the game better? Getting rid of speed kills and making fights last longer? That is the idea of a person with brain damage, and it would ruin the game. Those are the kind of changes I’m talking about, that would cause large numbers of people to quit. And rightfully so.
They don’t need to make boss fights slower.
“If they bother doing the dungeon at all, the only dungeons in the game that offer any challenge are often ignored for the easy “Zerk-friendly” ones.”
Wrong. There are no dungeons that cannot be done better in zerk gear. I’ve done them all. CM, TA, Arah, HotW, any of them can be done better by a zerk party, even fotm 50.
(edited by LostInSmoke.2590)
Part of the problem with “play how you want” is that build flexibility is significantly and artificially inhibited.
GW1 was actually like this for a very brief time – you had to earn some sort of “play points” or something to respec your character. It was only a month or two after release that they allowed you to assign your skill points freely between instances.
Because of the number of skills and the dual professions, the meta was always changing and creative builds were always emerging.
The simplified nature of GW2 and the lack of build flexibility pushes players to specialize in a specific meta rather than just loading a template and swapping your gear (which should also have templates).
I had dozens and dozens of templates for my GW1 Elementalist (nuker, terra tank, perma shadow form, etc) but my GW2 Guardian runs DPS only and always because as much as I’d like to play around with some builds, the game makes it a hassle and there really is no point.
GW1 had so much variety in zones that you had to carefully outfit your character to go to Underworld or Fissure of Woe or to run certain missions. There was no one build that worked equally well in every area and part of the fun was working out the kinks and trying to refine things until your build was as good as it can be.
Well, GW1 is REALLY different from GW2. It has healers, it has energy, it doesn’t have evades … a world of differences.
I prefer how encounters are designed in GW1, with much more player-like groups of enemies and way less big bosses, but it’s also true that success is a lot more tied to builds than to player skill (with the current 7-hero option, you can build them properly and they will steamroll 90%, if not more, of the content while you just move around and afk during fights).
Removing stat combinations with critical damage would be a big change and would probably make things more interesting by not allowing extreme speedkills (with enemies not having almost time to react) and nerfing reflect in a quite strong way.
How would that make the game better? Getting rid of speed kills and making fights last longer? That is the idea of a person with brain damage, and it would ruin the game. Those are the kind of changes I’m talking about, that would cause large numbers of people to quit. And rightfully so.
They don’t need to make boss fights slower.
IMHO there’s a problem with HOW fast some encounters can be finished.
I want pure offense to be the most effective option, but I want it to be through a complete reliance on active defenses and the player skill involved on making it work consistently.
If the fight is over SO fast that a couple of precasted aegis and, idk, and endure pain followed by a defiant stance, are more than enough, then the risk vs reward idea becomes totally flawed.
If the fight is over SO fast that a couple of precasted aegis and, idk, and endure pain followed by a defiant stance, are more than enough, then the risk vs reward idea becomes totally flawed.
No one is using ep and ds but they might start to do it after some changes.
Good post OP, makes sense.
[AS] Tarnished Coast
That is not good, because it leads to no one being happy. Those who do gear themselves for maximum damage (objectively superior overall) find the game easy and unrewarding, because content cannot be balanced around only the pure DPS playstyle. Those who do not gear themselves for pure DPS have to constantly deal with the pressures and difficulties of being objectively inferior, and suffer greatly each time Anet “compromises” between the two, or balanced rewards off of the most efficient instead of the average player.
Section 2: What causes this problem specifically?
This comes down to how damage, active defense, and enemy offense behaves. Now, there is a saying I used to hear around City of Heroes, and it holds true here as well:
Death is the ultimate debuff.
The best thing you can do to any enemy is kill it. A dead enemy does no damage, does not heal, does not debuff, and does not block attacks. The faster something is dead, the faster you get money from it, and the faster you can go and do something else.
There is an often overlooked aspect to damage: the faster you do damage, the more durable you are indirectly because of the fact. For example, assume it takes 10 seconds for you to kill an enemy, and it does damage to you during this 10 seconds. If, say, you built yourself to do double the damage, but take double the damage, you’d end up taking the same amount of damage because the enemy will live only half as long.
There’s only one wrong part in what you’ve said.
There ARE people who are happy playing as full zerker – personally I love being able to zerk my way through dungeons, clear them in very little time and make a lot of profit while doing it.
I don’t really mind the content being easy – no matter what set you wear the content becomes tiring and easy after you’ve done it hundreds of times.
I just want rewards quickly – and if zerker is nerfed I’ll just wear the next best thing and then all the " Zerker meta must go " people and all the cleric’s misfits complaining that they haven’t been let into full zerker parties will complain about me and people who share my view on things wearing the next-in-line-best-damage gear and that’ll be the end of it.
Zerker is not the problem – nor was it ever the problem.
The problem is some people’s inability to find and team up with likeminded individuals and their opinion that makes them feel entitled to be taken on runs with people that don’t want them there.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
As an Arah berserker warrior soloer, I would honestly love to be able to solo some dungeons with a face tank build that doesnt need to dodge. I don’t care if it takes 10times longer than zerkers, I just want the ability to so I can change up my playstyle.
The good ole invinci tank meta.
http://www.twitch.tv/eco_r_i
Wynd Cloud | Fierce N Licious
Wynd Cloud | Fierce N Licious
You play a sword focus reflect mesmer and don’t already consider yourself bringing the control and support you want so badly? To me that’s precisely what control and support is. You control the mobs into a corner/wall using focus, and you support your team with reflections. Why do you feel you need tank stats to be viable to accomplish this?
Exactly this. Why is there this notion that you NEED tank stats ALONG with dps stats? That just isn’t going to happen.
With the way PvE is setup, it makes more sense to gear towards DPS stats and group utility traits. People seem to want both survival stats, utilities, and “support” for their group. News flash: that isn’t going to happen. You can’t have your Celestial and eat it too.
People are too focused on old trinity mechanics of stat based dmg mitigation. Get with the flow: dps is a form of dmg mitigation, party utilities(ie non-selfish) are dmg mitigation. It’s like “peace through superior firepower”.
People need to either wake up and adapt or they need to go back to whatever trinity based MMO they came from.
And I think that lays some of the problems. I mentioned above and I’ll say again. Right now reflect/evade/aegis etc are pretty much independent from stats. Yes, boon duration affect to some degree but not game changing. Trait passive isn’t that important either. Result in any build can bring those “supports” without sacrificing much stats.
And no, it’s not right. A build becomes imba when it can access too many things at once. For example in pvp, the old hambow having access to good damage ALSO good cc, now you know what happen to them. Same in pve, if a class has good utilities like reflect, the dps or other stats should be bought down to equal it out. Right now, I don’t see it balanced this way. Warrior has great party buff while having good burst dps, many evade skills, god mobilities. Guardian has awesome reflects, party support, block/vigor/aegis in the world while having good dps.
That hambow warrior also had extreme access to defence and sustain due to healing signet and warriors naturally good health and armor, not to mention adrenaline regen and cleansing ire. It definitely wasn’t CC and damage alone that made hambow what it was. Say, lock down mesmer has both extreme offense and decent CC, but it is only so good in spvp. It’s usable but not a top build.
? <(^-^><)>^-^)> <(^-^)> ?
Would this solution destroy stacking? I don’t care if berserker meta gets buffed or nerfed. The OP does not address stacking as an issue or if the side-effects of berserker meta does anything to stacking.
I don’t think the problem is berserker meta, I think that the problem is that everyone uses the same tactic over and over again because it is the best, most efficient and most boring tactic ever. Stacking has been used way too often.
In my pug runs, not everyone runs in berserker gear; however, this does not mean that stacking doesn’t work. It just means mobs die a few minutes slower. Stacking destroys depth, not berserker gear. What would destroying berserker meta do to impact dungeon gameplay than destroying stacking do? Stacking destroys depth.
5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
Another essay about how is berserker gear bad for game but still not a single valid argument how passive stats combination and defenses would make game more challeging compared to active defenses which berserker setup uses.
Face the harsh facts, timing you dodges, reflects, aegis require you to watch whats happening around you. Toughness and vitality adds only more margin for your error . Passive defenses dont add anything it term of required skill from player.
What game needs in terms of diversity is imo reworking how conditions work, not making passive defense stats more required.
Just want to say thank you to Blood Red Arachnid for a spot on explanation of why zerker gear is the only gear that matters in PvE. I’ve been mulling similar thoughts in my head for a long time but couldn’t explain it so thoroughly.
As for solving the problems of active vs. passive defense, it seems pretty obvious to me. Nerf baseline active defense across the board massively, then add stats on equipment that scale your active defense. Fully kitted out with active defense stats, you would provide/have better active defense than in the live game right now, but without it you would have fewer dodges, shorter boons, shorter reflects, etc etc. With this system, at least one person in the group will need to act as a support (with active defense stats over offensive stats) who can provide the reflects, vigor, protection, or other active defenses that we currently rely on to not die.
I think updating mob AI to strike weaker but more frequently and use other attacks that circumvent active defense is not necessarily a good option. Using active defense in this game is very satisfying for the player, and this kind of AI change will (in my imagination) make the active defenses you use seem futile and weak.
It’s not how the game was advertised. We were told “any class can play any role” and right now that is ludicrous because DPS builds are far superior to anything else.
100% wrong. You are misquoting and misremembering. The promise was “no trinity, no dedicated roles, all classes will provide dps, healing, support, cc”
This does not mean “anything goes all classes can fulfill any role.” It means there are no roles and all characters are expected to DPS (zerker meta: check), Support (zerker meta: check), CC (zerker meta: check), and heal (zerker meta: check).
What you, and the other zerkernerfers want is a trinity system where any class can fulfill any of the trinity roles but that is not the game that Anet promise and not the game Anet delivered.
I consider this post of mine to have effectively put this debate to bed. Mods can feel free to sticky my post and close the thread.
Right now every class in PvE specs for DPS and support and the only valid stat combo is Berserkers.
That’s not the system I expected based on advertisements* and it’s not the way I believe ArenaNet intended it. The game is skill based and hence Berserker will always be the most effective combo, but I do not think they intended running Berserker to be as easy as it is now courtesy of stacking. This ultimately kills build diversity because there is currently a low skill-cap needed to run Berserker so that any average Joe can use it instead of only the top 15% of players.
I’m not asking them to kill Berserkers. I run Berserkers. I understand it is the most effective stat combo and the builds you and your co-members of DnT put out are fantastic. But the low-skill cap needed to use it right now will ultimately kill the PvE side game.
*sources: http://youtu.be/aDyKPXjA9eU?t=1m7s
ok and running tank/healing power requires more skill or what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM
low-skill cap is because arenanet doesnt deliver any difficult and challenging content.
not because of the berserker gear and berserker stats.
and compared to berserker, other gear doesnt require any skill at all.
[qT] Quantify