Guild Wars 2

There are a few things I want to note:

• Specialization will always wield better results than generalization. This is not only how it works in any other game, but in real life. Only a build that can do everything at maximum efficiency is the exception to the rule, and that build would be, for all intended purposes, overpowered.
• Specialization makes challenging content far more pug-friendly, because it prevents redudancy in non-voiced organized teams. Every player being able to do a little bit of everything only works with voiced commands or in easy content (because it’s easy). Without means to coordenate themselves, pugs will interrupt the same foe at the same time, cast the same support skills on the same ally at the same time, or throw their fields on the same dying enemies at the same time, resulting in a lot of uneffective redudancy. It has nothing to do with player’s skill, and it makes team content ultimately a guessing game. “Should I do it, or will my team mate do it?” By existing more specialized roles, this problem will be significantly toned down.
• Just because specialization is the most effective means to organize teams, it does not means that the holy trinity must be back. GW2 has its own, better version of the trinity, and each profession can fill each role in theory, making GW2 a lot closer to the “play how you want” philosophy. But that philosophy still has its limits – pushed too far, and it becomes impossible to balance the game.
• Builds don’t even need to be specialized to each of the three roles, but to subroles within those roles. If character A can heal low-health allies while dealing damage, character B can use reflects on upcoming projectiles while CC’ing enemies, character C can cleanse conditions on allies while applying condition damage, character D can apply fury and might to the party, and character E can aegis before the big hits, we have FIVE different subroles of the “support” master role. You can notice how the risk for redudancy is really low in this example, yet, build diversity is still higher than your average MMO’s holy trinity, and builds aren’t still stuck to a single purpose either.

The later point demands a few things from Anet, however.

• Tweak the stat system to allow higher specialization on the control and support master roles, and specifically for each of their subroles. Boon duration and healing power affect two different types of support, but none affects reflection and the like. Condition duration affects condition control, but nothing affects/ improves dazes, KDs, etc. Also, some boons and conditions are too strong even without investment. Although maybe the blame goes to pve design.
• Give more support/ control stats to gears (boon duration, condition duration).
• Focus on making weapons, traitlines, and perhaps down the line, subclasses (if they are ever to exist) playstyles a bit more specialized on a few, selected subroles within each master role. Even if, for example, a weapon can damage, control and support at the same time, what kind of niche damage type does it fits? What kind of niche support style does it fits? What kind of niche control does it fits? Is it good at sustained damage? Then it shouldn’t have good burst, nor condition damage, nor aoe. Is it good at blinding foes and interrupting (1-second dazing) their attacks? Then it shouldn’t have movement-impairing control, KDs, etc. Is it good at might and fury stacking? Then it shouldn’t heal, offer reflection, aegis, etc. Ultimately, more specialization, while still not being restricted to a single role of gw2’s trinity. Best of both worlds?

kyubi.3620:

Reduce endurance gain of all party member by half and lets see how well these so called pro ’’dodge’’ lupicus. While i agree dodge is a part of the game, you shouldnt be able to clear just any content by dodging 100% of the time with no armor at all. Reducing global endurance gain for everyone would be a big incentive to running ranged weapon and using less glassy build in the first place or at least it would make it risky for real for all those melee berserkers.

reduce vitality and thoughness of all party member by half and lets see how well these so called pro “tank” lupicus.
while i agree, tanky gear is part of the game, you shouldnt be able to clear just any content by tanking 100% of the time, like in the following video.

ACCEPT IT ALREADY.

@kyubi: you really seem to be out for blood tonight. You are forgetting be basis of this game. Every party needs to be able to clear any content. That would include 5 dagger/dagger thieves in full berserker gear without a single trait in defense.

Anyway… dodging 100% time? If you are dodging you are not dealing damage, so no, there is no dodging 100% of the time. Also, dodge is the most important game mechanic in this whole game, even ANet themselves have said so. PvE content needs to be such, that every major attack that would down you in one hit can be dodged (if you think about it a little, that’s how bosses are designed).

There already are incentives to using ranged weapons: it’s easier. Why else would you see so many bearbows in dungeons?

People are completely misunderstanding the upcoming change and what this game is about. Everything is viable, everything has some sort of advantage and disadvantage to it. It’s just that berserker is the fastest option, and it would be nice if some other DPS sets (like rampagers) were brought up to match that proficiency, as well as if more content would come out (so that defensive gear for running the new content would have meaning).

Defensive gear will never hold meaning as long as player can dodge deadly hit while wearing no thoughness Silferas so please dont tell that kind of joke. Defence is only usefull when you take a hit and if you dont take a hit its useless.
To give hybrid-defence or fodder targeting builds any meaning in the first place they will need to reduce everyone evasiveness so that we stop behing able to survive on our dodge alone.

cant edit or so it seems but ill remind you that reducing evasiveness will in no way hinder the parties ability to clear contents youl just happen to take hit more often then before and if you actualy fail at dodging right it will be twice as more punishing for people who waste their endurance in the blue and dont have the proper survivability to match.

my head hurts….

seriously. what will it change? nothing. we are still going to be left with the same old boring content.

if you want to make it more punishing and challenging then tell the devs what we are telling them for over a year.

give us new and challenging content.

kyubi.3620:

cant edit or so it seems but ill remind you that reducing evasiveness will in no way hinder the parties ability to clear contents youl just happen to take hit more often then before and if you actualy fail at dodging right it will be twice as more punishing for people who waste their endurance in the blue and dont have the proper survivability to match.

The skill and balancing team already have a plan (if I’m not wrong) to reduce overall endurance regeneration, as that is also a problem in pvp. However, talking specifically for PvE, I think more frequent enemy attacks would have a bigger impact than lesser endurance regeneratiom.

Let’s keep in mind that increased attack rate for PvE mobs also contributes to:

• More kiting (If you’re low on health, and the enemy doesn’t stops auto-attacking, you have no choice but to leave and heal);
• Stronger confusion, stronger retaliation, stronger chaos armor, stronger elementalist’s and combo’s auras – pretty much any skill that relies on enemies acting or you getting hit will stop being useless this way. Some enemies should even have a few instant skills to give us some offensive or defensive burst with the mentioned skills.

@kyubi: what you are asking for would kill this game off. Many people (myself included) would not bow our heads and wear PVT because melee berserker would mean the equivalent of death for us.

Defensive gear: useful for noobs, WvW, zerg events (like scarlet invasions)
if you would demand more usefulnes you’d need to introduce the role of a tank = holy trinity

the only way defensive gear would get more recognition in gw2 would be if there would be new content that isn’t actually braindead and would require you to run it until you can figure out a way to do it in berserker. There is no other use for bunker stats and never will be.

And hybrid defense builds are something for PvP or WvW, or (once again) noobs running dungeons, there is no way you can make those useful without making berserker builds useless, and that’s not gonna happen

Silferas.3841:

the only way defensive gear would get more recognition in gw2 would be if there would be new content that isn’t actually braindead and would require you to run it until you can figure out a way to do it in berserker. There is no other use for bunker stats and never will be.

Or introduce new content where the victory condition is only (or also) met by surviving or holding a place.

That’s how defensive builds are viable in pvp.

I’ll separate my response into 3 parts. First, a not constructive one.

Unlimited crit rate as a (stat) is utterly worst thing you can do to a game – especially the one that also utilizes crit damage boosts (again, as a gear stat).
Why? Because once the multipliers kick in (rate cap + 119% passive crit damage) there are no options left. I do not know mmo where you could sit at 100% crita rate with 269% crit damage.
But problem of this game is NO LONGER this damage. Problem now is that the game itself, including decision previously made by development staff, focus on that damage.
It is the fact that this very damage represents big portion of the value of the game at this moment that makes me think that addressing solely zerker stats and builds parts of the game would devalue it even more.
I’ll be honest – since the very day I’ve grown disappointed of how this game went I logged in, farmed, played and wasted time on in other ways for just two purposes:
the guild, the people I play with (without those (that already left) I would never even bought the game to start with) and a goal I set for myself in making the glassiest of cannons on both thief and engineer. Practically, the thing that keeps me in game is the damage I can do. And skill that is required to survive with the damage I can do. Without it I would find no meaning in this, already far beyond simple “unrewarding”, gameplay.

Now the almost-constructive part.
Everyone likes to throw around those “you are not forced to play a role, instead you can play any style you want”.
Thing is: you are not “not forced” to play any distinct role. You are merely stripped of the ability to do so. Style is something that is a part of a role. Role is what you do, style is how you do it and how good you are at it.
And in this game there are, at this moment, one role – damage. It is the fact that without damage you can’t do ANYTHING in this game. What variety, what build diversity when there is no goal you can reach without damage and no goal you can’t reach with JUST damage.

DiogoSilva.7089

kyubi.3620:
cant edit or so it seems but ill remind you that reducing evasiveness will in no way hinder the parties ability to clear contents youl just happen to take hit more often then before and if you actualy fail at dodging right it will be twice as more punishing for people who waste their endurance in the blue and dont have the proper survivability to match.

The skill and balancing team already have a plan (if I’m not wrong) to reduce overall endurance regeneration, as that is also a problem in pvp. However, talking specifically for PvE, I think more frequent enemy attacks would have a bigger impact than lesser endurance regeneratiom.

Let’s keep in mind that increased attack rate for PvE mobs also contributes to:
•More kiting (If you’re low on health, and the enemy doesn’t stops auto-attacking, you have no choice but to leave and heal);
•Stronger confusion, stronger retaliation, stronger chaos armor, stronger elementalist’s and combo’s auras – pretty much any skill that relies on enemies acting or you getting hit will stop being useless this way. Some enemies should even have a few instant skills to give us some offensive or defensive burst with the mentioned skills.

I support this idea totaly because it force the player to dodge more often (same results as not having enought endurance to dodge) And actualy give the player a reason to run something else then glass or actualy use a ranged weapon

And the constructive part:
Its not the “peaks” that need shaving. It’s the holes that need filling and poopiles that need buffing.
I don’t see what is wrong with doing lots of damage (in zerker) to, for example, 40 fractal random boss. It’s debatable, but I can agree with the fact that of being one-shot by ANY non-avoided attack of ANY mob up there. What I don’t agree with is that, for example, I can’t do that on engineer. I can’t play those fractals on engineer. I can’t do anywhere near that damage on engineer. I can’t agree to the fact of my bank being full of ascended rings with not a single needed one ever dropping for me (every single one I wear I had to buy). Not to mention fractal weapon skins I will never be able to wear or sell.
Now, what should be done?
Scenario A (the mmo ideal hard and long-term one, lots of changes involved, though i personally do not favor it):
Start by shaving (very important that ALL of the listed will be affected) crit damage and any on-crit passives, abilities and effects. So people will be less dependant on crit rate.
Proceed with shaving crit rate (solely crit rate) or introducing a REASONABLE CAP. People will come to trading unnecessary rate for other stats. At this point (i mean at the same time as the second step) the combat values on non-player characters should be revised (to less active combat time per target overall).
Next step – separating stats from trait lines. For example, letting any player select ONE stat to benefit from for every trait line he invests into (according to amount of points spent in every line). Now this will be a hard change, but with clear orientation for future limiting the effectiveness of every stat in general.
As previous step suggested, next one is more aggressive diminishing returns or caps on toughness and overall passive damage reduction, and more progressive returns on condition damage and healing power. At this point, classes need to be brought closer together in terms of base hp and one more thing (that I cannot really figure out yet) – conditions to be brought down. Perhaps limit the time and frequency of applying conditions and/or introducing diminishing returns/resistances for them (on per-character basis, so conditions would be then freed of caps in the future).
With some more minor changes, this would result in rather stable, albeit bit gray, overall game-play. Either way, its the one many other projects successfully utilized and proved to work since it is (rarely technically more difficult) rather transparent and less creative (less effort/stable gain scenario favored by many companies). I, as a player am not very fond of it since I by my nature hate the whole unreasonability of “forced” limits on just about everything (that these changes imply).
Scenario B is what they usually call overhaul. I won’t propose anything on this part as it involves in creating something totally new, even if still leaving something in place. Thing is, no matter the effort is will always be half-good and half-bad.

Scenario C is much less of a scenario, better to think of it as a collection of ideas based on the “meta evolving” or what is it called in English. Its about changing game’s extremes by changing things that would not normally affect regular aspects. Its mostly what ANET balance team pursued in most of the balance changes (though they sadly tend to focus on extremes themselves rather than on things that directly affect them).
Well, here is the list:
1) Cut about 15-20% of stats from gear and move that amount of every stat (maybe a bil shaved on top) to base stats.
Easier to reach some thresholds, less power on gear, easier to choose.
2) Again, separate traits and stats. Chose one stat for every line you invest to, and get how much you invested.
Freedom for players, freedom in trait or whole trait lines switching/changing/remodeling for ANET staff.
3) Skills, traits, weapons, more skills. This is a game. For every player that complains for opness of some new skill, there will be 10 to love it and 100 to thank you for actually adding something. As long as it will happen regularly enough. Don’t be afraid to introduce something new and strong. Just be sure to introduce something to slap it over in the next update. Once we reach over a thousand of skills minor changes to any old ones would already seem like whole new skills. (thats what worked wonders in gw1)
4) Scaling. How about removing on-the-way chests in dungeons (they are not affected by our newly-acquired luck anyway) and instead give a guaranteed rare/exotic at the end? How about a wvw buff that increases scales your every stat for every opponent 5 more than number of nearby allies? Zerg crushed by a single warrior is a good reason to stop zerging when there is no reason to.
5) Customization. Hobosacks, ui, turret ai, combo fields, freaking high shaders without gloss. (last one is really really nasty) You know, in gw1 even armor clipping was (is) getting hotfixed…
6) Mobility and invisible walls. Jumpable (say, up to 3m wide and up to 1m height) gaps should be traversable (by at least teleports and leaps). More leaps with vertical movement. More distance makers (there are like 4-5 times more gap closers with by far lower cooldowns). Please, listen to Newton and remove abrupt speed changes during aerial movement (aside from force inducing cc). Immobilize in the middle of the jump over cliff (or speed drop from entering combat) or jump-shot stop mid-air once the skill distance is reached. Less penalized speed in combat. Especially for things like speed in stealth (since it says 100%) and slick shoes (it does say “very fast”).
7) To sum everything up, including the issue at hand (zerker).
Introduce finally the COUNTERS. Let us (and mobs) bring SKILLS (or effects is thats too hard) that PUNISH something. I am not talking about pbaoe (too much of that we already have) or missile reflection. Let some bosses do debuffs that punish stacking. I am bored of stacking. I want to do dungeons like I did during beta weekends and start of the game. Don’t be afraid to change things (just makes sure changes make something definitely better and not actually worse). Less shaving, more fixing, much more introducing.
8) Just forgot to add: consider replacing (in due time and in small packets of course) all
hidden cooldowns on almost everything with either visible cooldowns or effects that would not need one.

someone got between my 3 posts

kyubi.3620:

What about nerfing endurance regeneration on all class and make it so that zerk can no longuer rely on endurence regeneration alone to survive?

Because that’s dumbing down the game.

Ahlen.7591:

kyubi.3620:

What about nerfing endurance regeneration on all class and make it so that zerk can no longuer rely on endurence regeneration alone to survive?

Because that’s dumbing down the game.

That’s what people want, so long as it means that a group of people who actually bother to dodge and min/max can’t do stuff any faster then them in their “lol play however I want and still want to be teh king” builds.

Going to re-iterate what I suggested in another thread.

Suggestion1: Add more Immobilize and Weakness to monsters
The one line of defense that all zerkers use: Dodge. If you stop them from doing that to avoid every single attack and more and force them to take damage and be killed, then they will learn to avoid zerker and add more survival gear. We all know that dead players do 0 damage. Moreover, this will force players to carry condition removal skills, or having support party members that carry condition removal skills. Forcing support on players = making support more desirable.

Suggestion2: Improve Toughness
What is the point of ever taking the Toughness stats if the boss is going to 1-hit me anyway? Might as well go full damage. No boss should ever be able to 1-hit any player who is fully decked in at least full Soldier’s gear worth of Toughness even with Light Armor.

Suggestion3: Increase Monster Damage
Zerker carries extremely little risk to play because of low monster damage. Even though there are telegraphed attacks, taking a hit from those as a Zerker does not kill you. Example: CoF1 final boss. The large AoE attack that hits 4 seconds after the red circle appears. A zerker Warrior can even not dodge it all and eat 3 of those before being downed. The boss uses the attack about every 10 seconds, but the boss will be dead before it can even use this attack 3 times. If this attack 1-hitted any full glass cannon(including Warrior), then they would be forced to dodge it, or carry some extra Toughness to allow for mistakes(not being 1-hitted). If you do improve monster damage, it will not affect a good zerker player, because that player will dodge every one of those attacks. But even bad zerker players are not even punished or take any risks from dying.

Improving Toughness and Improving Monster Damage are a bit contradictory, but the sweet spot should be:
Anyone in full Zerker even with Heavy Armor should be 1-hitted by all telegraphed monster attacks, but no attacks should ever 1-hit any player who has say full PVT even while in Light Armor.

All of these post all show the one important point they need to make it twice as harder for full zerker to survive but somewhat worthwhile for someone whos not zerking to do the same. That way player who dodge like gods arent any more punished then before and people who run balanced build wich doesnt rely on pure damage actualy get to be party worthwhile.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Going to re-iterate what I suggested in another thread.

Suggestion1: Add more Immobilize and Weakness to monsters
The one line of defense that all zerkers use: Dodge. If you stop them from doing that to avoid every single attack and more and force them to take damage and be killed, then they will learn to avoid zerker and add more survival gear. We all know that dead players do 0 damage. Moreover, this will force players to carry condition removal skills, or having support party members that carry condition removal skills. Forcing support on players = making support more desirable.

Suggestion2: Improve Toughness
What is the point of ever taking the Toughness stats if the boss is going to 1-hit me anyway? Might as well go full damage. No boss should ever be able to 1-hit any player who is fully decked in at least full Soldier’s gear worth of Toughness even with Light Armor.

Suggestion3: Increase Monster Damage
Zerker carries extremely little risk to play because of low monster damage. Even though there are telegraphed attacks, taking a hit from those as a Zerker does not kill you. Example: CoF1 final boss. The large AoE attack that hits 4 seconds after the red circle appears. A zerker Warrior can even not dodge it all and eat 3 of those before being downed. The boss uses the attack about every 10 seconds, but the boss will be dead before it can even use this attack 3 times. If this attack 1-hitted any full glass cannon(including Warrior), then they would be forced to dodge it, or carry some extra Toughness to allow for mistakes(not being 1-hitted). If you do improve monster damage, it will not affect a good zerker player, because that player will dodge every one of those attacks. But even bad zerker players are not even punished or take any risks from dying.

Improving Toughness and Improving Monster Damage are a bit contradictory, but the sweet spot should be:
Anyone in full Zerker even with Heavy Armor should be 1-hitted by all telegraphed monster attacks, but no attacks should ever 1-hit any player who has say full PVT even while in Light Armor.

Immobilize and weakness don’t matter. It won’t change anyone from wearing zerker, it will just change their build slightly to include more condi removal, it won’t change their stats at all.

Terrasque.8735:

You seem to be stating for a fact that the zerk meta fix will lower the needed skillcap, while most suggestions I’ve seen are based around increasing the skill needed to play zerker well.

Let me do a simple mechanic example. What if some bosses had a reflection shield, that would reflect a certain percent of the damage done back to whoever did the attack, and the shield would be down for a period if the boss was successfully interrupted.

You’d either have to take pauses to avoid lethal damage, gear/spec for handling more incoming damage, have support to keep you alive, or use CC properly. Now my question is, in that example, how would it make things easier than it is now?

All this would do is slow down the amount of time it takes a skillful group of DPS-geared players to complete the content. Consequently, what you’re really doing is nerfing the rewards of skillful play, because the only reward for skillful play in GW2 is the ability to complete content quickly and efficiently.

Moreover, requiring players to have CC skills in order to efficiently complete content is little more than an attempt to brute force the meta in a direction that suits your playstyle.

These suggestions don’t address any problem, because there is no problem to begin with. Some people just wish the meta was different. At least be honest about it.

Ahlen.7591:

kyubi.3620:

What about nerfing endurance regeneration on all class and make it so that zerk can no longuer rely on endurence regeneration alone to survive?

Because that’s dumbing down the game.

How so exactly? They could break down and get toughness, or they could rely more on alternative forms of active defenses (blocks, blinds, stuns, dazes, invuls, protection, regen, weakness, ect) The increased pressure could allow for more roles in parties like pure support and pure control. Dps wouldn’t be the lone standing “do everything” spec it is now. And it wouldn’t be like the holy trinity because every class has access to these roles in their own unique way. All the devs would have to do then is fix Defiant and Conditions.
It’d be nice if the current Pugging environment allowed for a wide array of talents instead of demanding nothing less then max dps.

yes cept that doing all 3 will likely have an impact, especialy if monsters can now 1 shot zerkers who are careless. Zerk takes all its worth from the fact it has low agro and uber damage yet no risk because even the stronguest mob wont be able to one shot a good zerk, lets make it so that the hit are truly lethal to unarmored people at least.

You have no idea where they might think the game should stand – perhaps they believe, as Nike does, that other DPS playstyles should have a better shot at being meta in the risk v reward paradigm.

I think if that was their intention they would have kept the language focused on the word ‘Berserker’, implying they’re referring only to that particular stat distribution and not the act of damaging in general. But they actually said ‘Berserker/DPS’.

That was a well written devil’s advocate, though. With all the vitriol surrounding this topic, it’s nice to see somebody keep such a cool head.

And then? We will have exactly the same boring content. The same problems beaucse there will be a new max dps meta (max dps which can be done with at least minimum def to survive).
Only longer fights but still boring as we have it now. It will ruin everything and solve not even one problem.

And we will get new class balance problems. How do u want to make the content equal for a warrior and a thief if the thief can´t dogde more? If the thiefs needs more defensive traits/gear he will do less dps then the warr who can use more offensive gear/builds.
So why should any1 pick up a thief?
It will destroy the complete class balance thing. Yes not all classes are balanced (necros for example) but it will get even worse.

If they just force me to wear defensive gear/traits and doing the same still boring content i will quit this game. And im sure i will not be alone.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Anyone in full Zerker even with Heavy Armor should be 1-hitted by all telegraphed monster attacks, but no attacks should ever 1-hit any player who has say full PVT even while in Light Armor.

Sounds fair to me (I still think some one-shots here and there are not bad at all).

The biggest problem with the idea is the disparity on base HPs and the wide spectrum between full Zeker and full PVT.
If an ele shouldn’t be oneshoted on full PVT, then a warrior would just need about 100-200 points between toughness and vitality to achieve the same.

Ahlen.7591:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Going to re-iterate what I suggested in another thread.

Suggestion1: Add more Immobilize and Weakness to monsters
The one line of defense that all zerkers use: Dodge. If you stop them from doing that to avoid every single attack and more and force them to take damage and be killed, then they will learn to avoid zerker and add more survival gear. We all know that dead players do 0 damage. Moreover, this will force players to carry condition removal skills, or having support party members that carry condition removal skills. Forcing support on players = making support more desirable.

Suggestion2: Improve Toughness
What is the point of ever taking the Toughness stats if the boss is going to 1-hit me anyway? Might as well go full damage. No boss should ever be able to 1-hit any player who is fully decked in at least full Soldier’s gear worth of Toughness even with Light Armor.

Suggestion3: Increase Monster Damage
Zerker carries extremely little risk to play because of low monster damage. Even though there are telegraphed attacks, taking a hit from those as a Zerker does not kill you. Example: CoF1 final boss. The large AoE attack that hits 4 seconds after the red circle appears. A zerker Warrior can even not dodge it all and eat 3 of those before being downed. The boss uses the attack about every 10 seconds, but the boss will be dead before it can even use this attack 3 times. If this attack 1-hitted any full glass cannon(including Warrior), then they would be forced to dodge it, or carry some extra Toughness to allow for mistakes(not being 1-hitted). If you do improve monster damage, it will not affect a good zerker player, because that player will dodge every one of those attacks. But even bad zerker players are not even punished or take any risks from dying.

Improving Toughness and Improving Monster Damage are a bit contradictory, but the sweet spot should be:
Anyone in full Zerker even with Heavy Armor should be 1-hitted by all telegraphed monster attacks, but no attacks should ever 1-hit any player who has say full PVT even while in Light Armor.

Immobilize and weakness don’t matter. It won’t change anyone from wearing zerker, it will just change their build slightly to include more condi removal, it won’t change their stats at all.

The post includes 3 points, not just one. Immobilize alone does what you state, yes. Getting 1-hit a lot more from Suggestion3 is where they start switching gear. Combining the two together, you get a very risky playstyle. You not only have to condition cleanse but also dodge perfectly after that within the alloted time of the telegraphed attack or you end up downed on the ground.

Therefore, if you run out of condition removals, you are dead. With Weakness to the lot, you may also run out of Endurance, meaning you are also dead. The goal is not to remove Zerker completely, but make it extremely risky to play. After people start going dead more than 3 times per run and losing all their Bloodlust stacks in dungeons(thus taking a huge dip in DPS) while others with Toughness survive and keep their Bloodlust stacks, people will start swapping gears around. Exceptional players who manage to play perfectly while under Weakness/Immobilize/1-hit constraints deserve to run full Zerker gear, I acknowledge that much. Their time-saved should be their reward.

It will destroy the class balance completly. It´s a rly rly bad idea. And it solves no problem. Not even one.

While turtle dragon idea will definitevely mean the end of 5 zerker group it doesnt mean 1 or 2 zerker thief or warrior will not join a team from time to time it just mean they wont be able to run it on their own without the help of a control or a support spec to help them avoid as much damage as possible while they dps down the boss like before. This doesnt mean the end of berserker build it just mean an actualy window for party build variation.

As for class balance norjena i dont think you even know what balance means if you think that dps above all else is actualy balance.

7/8 classes can fit the acutual meta pretty well. Only necromancers lack of support/cleave dmg.

kyubi.3620:

While turtle dragon idea will definitevely mean the end of 5 zerker group it doesnt mean 1 or 2 zerker thief or warrior will not join a team from time to time it just mean they wont be able to run it on their own without the help of a control or a support spec to help them avoid as much damage as possible while they dps down the boss like before. This doesnt mean the end of berserker build it just mean an actualy window for party build variation.

There is a window for party build variation. You make a party and you go do the content. Quite simply really.

Oh wait no, that’s not the problem is it, some people are getting all upset because their own specific ideal isn’t perfectly optimal. Well boo $%*& hoo.

When zerker gets nerfed and the min/maxers find the new optimal speed run set up, guess what, 90% of the people kicking up a fuss about zerker now probably won’t fall into that catagory either and will kitten and moan again, just as they are now.

“What do you mean it is more optimal to have a clerics guard in the group for a speed run?!, I want to run knights AH guard, boooo I’m going to ask ANet to nerf you all, quaggan mad”.

Or something like that.

kyubi.3620:

While turtle dragon idea will definitevely mean the end of 5 zerker group it doesnt mean 1 or 2 zerker thief or warrior will not join a team from time to time it just mean they wont be able to run it on their own without the help of a control or a support spec to help them avoid as much damage as possible while they dps down the boss like before. This doesnt mean the end of berserker build it just mean an actualy window for party build variation.

It doesn’t, it just involves more condition removals.
Party wide cleanses are easily slotted, without modifying meta builds at all, on warriors, mesmers and guardians (the meta guardian actualy carry some by default).

It also means that a warrior bringing Empower Allies (20 points in Vitality traitline) can’t be ever oneshoted, and that any other warrior just needs to swap his chest for a PVT one to achieve the same.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Suggestion1: Add more Immobilize and Weakness to monsters
The one line of defense that all zerkers use: Dodge. If you stop them from doing that to avoid every single attack and more and force them to take damage and be killed, then they will learn to avoid zerker and add more survival gear.

Translation: Remove the availability of active (high-skill) defenses and increase dependance on passive (low-skill) defenses, thereby lowering the skill cap.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Suggestion2: Improve Toughness
What is the point of ever taking the Toughness stats if the boss is going to 1-hit me anyway?

Translation: Make passive (low-skill) defenses more effective, thereby raising the skill floor.

We get it … you want the game to be easier, for you.

I would say it takes more player skill to dodge or block or position yourself than facetank something. I didn’t know that was such revolutionary thinking.

The first two points of the “what this is not” points of the OP are all incorrect for that reason. As to the third, making another set of gear more important than another one that has existed as the best for a long time is indeed punishing players. You act as if it’s okay because the balance will be to “correct” a mistake that should have been fixed long ago when there’s no mistake AND players shouldn’t have to pay for a mistake that Anet made in the first place.

maybe youd rather have your critical damage reduced by half its value or your precision and crit damage put on diminishing returns ;P it would result into the same thing cept youd be next to on par with everyone else damage save for a 0.5 time increase at best.

I will keep this simple:

Active defenses = GOOD = promote active play, skill, knowledge of the game, skill, group cooperation, skill… did I mention skill?

Passive defenses = BAD = promote passive play (stand and get hit), reward unskilled players with level of success that they shouldn’t be reaching

Any good game needs to be designed in such a way, that the better you are at the game, the better reward you receive. If the game wants to be very popular, the skill floor will be set so that every player can eventually finish his goal (as opposed to hardcore games where casuals get effed). However if you remove the ability for skilled players to vastly outperform newblings, you will get another Farmville or some similar shaite. GW2 is already very casual, any kitten can finish any content in this game. Making it any more casual will really turn it into an overblown farmville.

SO: make new challenging content, then make the old content much harder (no specific anti-zerker changes, just make the content actually challenging for all players). Great players will keep making use of active defenses to go through the content fast, bad players will need to use tanky gear and will still complete the content. There will be place for any gear in this game.

The only change that actually needs to happen is condition buffs for dungeons. Condition damage should really be interchangeable with critical damage…

well then we can always reduce zerker damage by half. Best way to balance thing will keeping active defence a key feature.

kyubi.3620:

well then we can always reduce zerker damage by half. Best way to balance thing will keeping active defence a key feature.

I already expect half of the cirtical damage on zeker and assassin to be split into vitality, like in sPvP. I don’t like it, but it’s what I expect :P

Berner.7289:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Suggestion1: Add more Immobilize and Weakness to monsters
The one line of defense that all zerkers use: Dodge. If you stop them from doing that to avoid every single attack and more and force them to take damage and be killed, then they will learn to avoid zerker and add more survival gear.

Translation: Remove the availability of active (high-skill) defenses and increase dependance on passive (low-skill) defenses, thereby lowering the skill cap.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Suggestion2: Improve Toughness
What is the point of ever taking the Toughness stats if the boss is going to 1-hit me anyway?

Translation: Make passive (low-skill) defenses more effective, thereby raising the skill floor.

We get it … you want the game to be easier, for you.

Yes.
Game becomes easier but still takes longer to do a dungeon run with people who spec in Toughness.
Game becomes harder but still takes shorter to do a dungeon run with people who spec in Zerker.

Provided you can run Zerker perfectly, you gain the right to speed run through.

Therefore going Zerker is now very risky but also keeps being very rewarding.

Instead of the current meta where everyone simply goes Zerker because there is no reason to spec elsewhere and even bad players can go Zerker and speed run through without any sort of punishment or ever taking damage, let alone dying. Zerker will become something for the better, or should i say more elite, players.

Being acknowledge as someone who can run Zerker perfectly will surely be a great honor for me and probably for you too if you ever make it to that skill level once it means something.

kyubi.3620:

maybe youd rather have your critical damage reduced by half its value or your precision and crit damage put on diminishing returns ;P it would result into the same thing cept youd be next to on par with everyone else damage save for a 0.5 time increase at best.

I’ll take zerk for a 50% run duration reduction any time of the day. This goes beyond build flavor !

kyubi.3620:

well then we can always reduce zerker damage by half. Best way to balance thing will keeping active defence a key feature.

I am starting to feel like you are here just to make people angry.

But I’d be alright with that as long as damage is halved on EVERY single set in PVE. That’d make encounters take longer and therefore make it more challenging for berserkers.

Silferas.3841:

kyubi.3620:

well then we can always reduce zerker damage by half. Best way to balance thing will keeping active defence a key feature.

I am starting to feel like you are here just to make people angry.

But I’d be alright with that as long as damage is halved on EVERY single set in PVE. That’d make encounters take longer and therefore make it more challenging for berserkers.

Well the issue then would be that PVT is far too faceroll and easy. The solution is obviously to shave some tankiness from the set and put it into Precision and Crit Damage.

Or as I said, there is no zerk issue because the best thing we can do for the game is decide that PvE = zerk gear and everyone uses the same gear and the PvE content is tuned for that one

stof.9341:

Silferas.3841:

kyubi.3620:

well then we can always reduce zerker damage by half. Best way to balance thing will keeping active defence a key feature.

I am starting to feel like you are here just to make people angry.

But I’d be alright with that as long as damage is halved on EVERY single set in PVE. That’d make encounters take longer and therefore make it more challenging for berserkers.

Well the issue then would be that PVT is far too faceroll and easy. The solution is obviously to shave some tankiness from the set and put it into Precision and Crit Damage.

Or as I said, there is no zerk issue because the best thing we can do for the game is decide that PvE = zerk gear and everyone uses the same gear and the PvE content is tuned for that one

I said every set mate, PVT-ers would be hitting for 500 damage.

I’d honestly prefer normalization to berserker in PVE to any other solution in here.

stof.9341:

Silferas.3841:

kyubi.3620:

well then we can always reduce zerker damage by half. Best way to balance thing will keeping active defence a key feature.

I am starting to feel like you are here just to make people angry.

But I’d be alright with that as long as damage is halved on EVERY single set in PVE. That’d make encounters take longer and therefore make it more challenging for berserkers.

Well the issue then would be that PVT is far too faceroll and easy. The solution is obviously to shave some tankiness from the set and put it into Precision and Crit Damage.

Or as I said, there is no zerk issue because the best thing we can do for the game is decide that PvE = zerk gear and everyone uses the same gear and the PvE content is tuned for that one

To be honest, I like that solution. It is linear but great. It completely kills diversity, and provides 1 gear stat combo to rule them all. If we all get to be Zerkers only and no choice in stats, then everyone is the same, easy balance. Then the devs balance around that. Give players 1 free-stat change but only to Zerker on all their equipment.

Your stats will still differ from your trait lines only. The difference is minimal enough on the trait lines to allow any build you want to run, whether you like Mantra or Shatter, whether you like Venoms or Stealth.

We also then change crafting to be uniform. You have all those recipes, but all of them lead to Zerker gear. So regardless of whether you have 5 Powerful Blood or 5 Elaborate Totems, you can craft 1 piece of Exotic Zerker gear. But you must have 5 of one of them, you cannot craft with 2 Powerful Blood and 3 Elaborate Totem.

Lamir.6702:

I would say it takes more player skill to dodge or block or position yourself than facetank something. I didn’t know that was such revolutionary thinking.

And that has nothing to do with gear.
Yet in pve any gear is drastically inferior to zerk (and i still think it is due to having three multiplicative factors in the same gear, leading to an exponential effect, unlike any other stats composition ingame, rampagers included).
Especially since you can make up for lack of defensive stats by using blinds, evades, blocks, protection apart from the active dodges; and yet the opposite isn’t true, as there is nothing that can make up for the lack of offensive stats – might and fury aren’t as effective, and are even more strong when using offensive gear than when using defensive ones anyway (unlike the mechanisms descripted above, that ends up being more efficent in mitigation the less defensive stats you have, as there isn’t any exponential scaling involved there, just straight nullifications or cuts).

In the end, wear zerker is always the best choice.
Making all the other gear types useless.

So, what is so wrong on wanting to have some meaningful choice in gear instead of a single set to rule them all?

P.S. and those videos don’t prove anything, i already replied about them multiple times, and they use a lot of active defenses that don’t depend on gear anyway, making those video irrilevant for the matter discussed.

kyubi.3620:

All of these post all show the one important point they need to make it twice as harder for full zerker to survive but somewhat worthwhile for someone whos not zerking to do the same. That way player who dodge like gods arent any more punished then before and people who run balanced build wich doesnt rely on pure damage actualy get to be party worthwhile.

oh boy,

can you start thinking before you post?

PLAYERS WHO DODGE LIKE GODS SHOULDNT BE PUNISHED BECAUSE THEY ARE kittenING SKILLED.
berserker players who are bad receive maximum punishment at the moment.
it is called death.

by nerfing berserker you will also nerf the fun of those good players.
and no matter what arenanet will do, one thing is for sure.
i will never allow people like you to join my party.

what is going on in your head?
why do you want to nerf playerskill?
what about if you l2p and buff your own playerskill so you will be able to enjoy min/max builds that also provide maximum support at the same time?

you didnt even understand this.
a full berserker build can provide as much support as your tanky hulk build.
because gw2 doesnt have a trinity and everyone can do damage, cc and support at the same time.

concept of guild wars 2
concept of the guild wars 2 combat system.

NoTrigger.8396:

kyubi.3620:

All of these post all show the one important point they need to make it twice as harder for full zerker to survive but somewhat worthwhile for someone whos not zerking to do the same. That way player who dodge like gods arent any more punished then before and people who run balanced build wich doesnt rely on pure damage actualy get to be party worthwhile.

oh boy,

can you start thinking before you post?

PLAYERS WHO DODGE LIKE GODS SHOULDNT BE PUNISHED BECAUSE THEY ARE kittenING SKILLED.
and by nerfing berserker you will also nerf the fun of those players.
and no matter what arenanet will do, one thing is for sure.
i will never allow people like you to join my party.

what is going on in your head?
why do you want to nerf playerskill?
what about if you l2p and buff your own playerskill so you will be able to enjoy min/max builds that also provide maximum support at the same time?

you didnt even understand this.
a full berserker build can provide as much support as your tanky hulk build.
because gw2 doesnt have a trinity and everyone can do damage, cc and support at the same time.

concept of guild wars 2
concept of the guild wars 2 combat system.

Nothing is going on with his head; he could ask the same about your intolerance. Play and let play.

That’s the concept of the current speedrun community, not ANet’s own concept, evidently, because they believe this needs addressing. So no, I don’t agree-nor does ANet-with your “concept” for GW2.

(It’s OK to speedrun, however. Just leave others alone for not doing so.)

NoTrigger.8396:

a full berserker build can provide as much support as your tanky hulk build.
because gw2 doesnt have a trinity and everyone can do damage, cc and support at the same time.

concept of guild wars 2
concept of the guild wars 2 combat system.

Well said.

This is exactly the point that every one of us who defend berserker builds is trying to prove. The fault lies not with berserker gear, but with content being too easy. Do not force an artificial trinity on us, it would take away all of the fun in this game.

This game is not some kittenty WoW clone. Stop trying to make it into one. Many people who play this game despise WoW and all it encompasses.

Star Ace.5207:

NoTrigger.8396:

kyubi.3620:

All of these post all show the one important point they need to make it twice as harder for full zerker to survive but somewhat worthwhile for someone whos not zerking to do the same. That way player who dodge like gods arent any more punished then before and people who run balanced build wich doesnt rely on pure damage actualy get to be party worthwhile.

oh boy,

can you start thinking before you post?

PLAYERS WHO DODGE LIKE GODS SHOULDNT BE PUNISHED BECAUSE THEY ARE kittenING SKILLED.
and by nerfing berserker you will also nerf the fun of those players.
and no matter what arenanet will do, one thing is for sure.
i will never allow people like you to join my party.

what is going on in your head?
why do you want to nerf playerskill?
what about if you l2p and buff your own playerskill so you will be able to enjoy min/max builds that also provide maximum support at the same time?

you didnt even understand this.
a full berserker build can provide as much support as your tanky hulk build.
because gw2 doesnt have a trinity and everyone can do damage, cc and support at the same time.

concept of guild wars 2
concept of the guild wars 2 combat system.

Nothing is going on with his head; he could ask the same about your intolerance. Play and let play.

That’s the concept of the current speedrun community, not ANet’s own concept, evidently, because they believe this needs addressing. So no, I don’t agree-nor does ANet-with your “concept” for GW2.

(It’s OK to speedrun, however. Just leave others alone for not doing so.)

i dont care how he wants to play.
i let him play the way he wants.
he can go hulk 24/7.

the funny thing is that he wants to nerf MY playstyle. not the other way around.
only because he is not good enough to use my playstyle.
he feels useless with his hulk builds.

thats not a stat or gear issue. its a l2p issue.
but crying on forums is always easier than improving yourself.

NoTrigger.8396:

kyubi.3620:

All of these post all show the one important point they need to make it twice as harder for full zerker to survive but somewhat worthwhile for someone whos not zerking to do the same. That way player who dodge like gods arent any more punished then before and people who run balanced build wich doesnt rely on pure damage actualy get to be party worthwhile.

oh boy,

can you start thinking before you post?

PLAYERS WHO DODGE LIKE GODS SHOULDNT BE PUNISHED BECAUSE THEY ARE kittenING SKILLED.
and by nerfing berserker you will also nerf the fun of those players.
and no matter what arenanet will do, one thing is for sure.
i will never allow people like you to join my party.

what is going on in your head?
why do you want to nerf playerskill?
what about if you l2p and buff your own playerskill so you will be able to enjoy min/max builds that also provide maximum support at the same time?

you didnt even understand this.
a full berserker build can provide as much support as your tanky hulk build.
because gw2 doesnt have a trinity and everyone can do damage, cc and support at the same time.

concept of guild wars 2
concept of the guild wars 2 combat system.

I think you might have misread what he said. Because it means the exact same thing you said.

He said:
That way player who dodge like gods arent any more punished then before

Translation: players who dodge like gods are not punished.

You said:
PLAYERS WHO DODGE LIKE GODS SHOULDNT BE PUNISHED BECAUSE THEY ARE kittenING SKILLED.

Translation: players who dodge like goes are not punished.

The punishment is not being added for players who dodge like gods. They are the only people unaffected because they are skilled and pro.
Rephrasing:
All attacks now 1-hit
Players who dodge like gods never get hit = Pros are unaffected.
Players who do not dodge like gods will get hit a lot more = Bads get spanked.

The punishment is only being added for players who do not dodge like gods and still wear Zerker gear without any consequence or risk.

You should only have something against this if you do not dodge like gods. Then it comes to a matter of “QQ dont nerf my imba playstyle”.
Being Zerker should walk hand in hand with being able to dodge like gods.
Being unable to dodge like gods should go hand in hand with not wearing Zerker.

i understand exactly what he means and he is trying to nerf berserker to the ground.
read all his posts and you will understand my reaction.

+ zerker players who are bad already receive max punishment.

do whatever you want guys.
just look at the past year.
if things go as expected, gw2 will only become worse.

but something big is coming in 2014.
it is called wildstar.

and then you can have your empty servers without any berserker players who could be 5 minutes faster than you because they are simply better.