With the new sigil changes coming, some people have already highlighted the potential abuse that might happen with Fast Hands.
There are many who are dismissing this as a non-issue but 1 sigil stands out for me and I wish to try and discuss this now, and hopefully avoid this becoming a major balance issue come balance patch.
Superior Sigil of Energy
- Gain 50% of your endurance when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
Essentially, warriors will refill their bar by 50% every 10s. This is 1 free dodge every 10s on top of whatever vigor and endurance recovery the warrior already has. This is another throwback to perma-evade.
Does anyone else see this as a issue or am I making molehills again.
All of the “on-swap” sigils have 9 second cooldowns, which Fast Hands doesn’t go well with. So, it’s no different than if you had two sigils of energy, really.
The issue arises when you are using different sigils. Example: Having a sigil of energy and a sigil of battle on 1 set, having a sigil of goemancy and hydromancy on the other. Swap to first set a proc 50% endurance and might, 5 seconds later you swapp to second set proccing AoE bleeds and Chill. That’s 4 different procs in a 10 second span. There several powerful combinations which I will not name that would ridiculously OP.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
The easy solution I think is to make on-swap sigils only start their cooldown after you swap out of it. But even then, you reduce it to 2 times in 15s for the warrior. :/
No worries since hopefully, in this case, you’re all wrong
There will be no ICD on the same type of sigil e.g. Battle/Energy/Geomancy etc.. However, if you have e.g. Energy on Hammer and Energy on Greatsword the ICD from the first sigil of energy will put the second one on ICD as well.
On the other hand, if you have energy on Hammer and Battle on Greatsword – yeah, you get one of the procs every time you swap.
TLDR; No global cooldown for the same TYPE of proc; global cooldown for the same sigil.
No worries since hopefully, in this case, you’re all wrong
There will be no ICD on the same type of sigil e.g. Battle/Energy/Geomancy etc.. However, if you have e.g. Energy on Hammer and Energy on Greatsword the ICD from the first sigil of energy will put the second one on ICD as well.
On the other hand, if you have energy on Hammer and Battle on Greatsword – yeah, you get one of the procs every time you swap.
TLDR; No global cooldown for the same TYPE of proc; global cooldown for the same sigil.
That’s basically what I said in my post and it is a problem. Warriors will have the advantage of proccing 4 different sigils every 10 seconds when using fast hands where all other classes get only 2. Seems a little OP to me.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
No worries since hopefully, in this case, you’re all wrong
There will be no ICD on the same type of sigil e.g. Battle/Energy/Geomancy etc.. However, if you have e.g. Energy on Hammer and Energy on Greatsword the ICD from the first sigil of energy will put the second one on ICD as well.
On the other hand, if you have energy on Hammer and Battle on Greatsword – yeah, you get one of the procs every time you swap.
TLDR; No global cooldown for the same TYPE of proc; global cooldown for the same sigil.
This IS the problem—warriors can get twice the procs of anybody else by using 4 swap sigils and fast hands. This way they get to swap weapons halfway through their sigils cooldowns and get 2 procs every 5 seconds instead of having to wait 10.
They get the same effect from 1 sigil of energy that other professions require double for. (1/4 sigils instead of either 2/4 sigils or 1/2 for ele/engi)
@OP: Engineers and Elementalists can already proc their on-swap sigils every cooldown, so the Warrior gaining this won’t be anything new... but with the current state of the War, it better be done in such a way that they don’t dominate the meta for /another/ million years to the next balance patch.
@OP: Engineers and Elementalists can already proc their on-swap sigils every cooldown, so the Warrior gaining this won’t be anything new… but with the current state of the War, it better be done in such a way that they don’t dominate the meta for /another/ million years to the next balance patch.
They’re both locked up to 2 sigils when the patch comes though and they can only proc on-swap sigils every 9 seconds while warriors can proc up to 4 every 10 seconds. The frequency of a warrior swapping weapons can be very similar to how much an elementalist swaps attunement (frequency of how they can proc 1 on-swap sigil) so Warriors still get an advantage here. No matter how many times an engineer changes kits, he will still need to wait 9 seconds to proc the 2 sigils again.
@OP: Engineers and Elementalists can already proc their on-swap sigils every cooldown, so the Warrior gaining this won’t be anything new… but with the current state of the War, it better be done in such a way that they don’t dominate the meta for /another/ million years to the next balance patch.
No. Engineers and elementalists can only equip 2 signals, while warriors can equip 4. Although I agree that engineers and elementalists will be able to easily proc 1 particular sigil every 10s with only 1 copy of that sigil.
Oh, yes, sorry - I was only referring to the "proc on-swap sigil every time it’s off cooldown" issue, florence, by noting that two classes pretty reliably do this right now anyway.
Warriors getting to proc up to 4 on-swaps, every cooldown, could prove to be problematic though. Nerfing the cooldowns to 20 seconds would affect Engineers and Eles, who arguably need more love than War right now, and nerfing the sigil effects would just make them less useful for everyone.
Guess we’ve got to wait and see what the balance team have come up with.
One of the reasons, why Sigils and Runes will get overworked all together for sure also.. by the way.
im pretty sure we will see especialy on the sigils alot of mechanic changes, once 2h weapons become able to use 2 sigils at the same time.
because some of the mechanics just surtely work currently only, because we are currently forced to use specific weapons, if we want to have 2 sigils at the same time, so these effects are balanced based on the weapon skilsl of those weapons that you can use 2 sigills with.
ANet currently hadn#t to take into consideration the balance of 2 sigigls with the 2 hand weapons, but if they change it, they absolutely weill need to consider the synergies of the sigils with the 2h weapon skills resultign into significant sigil/rune changes of such a scale, that it is better to redesgin better completely the whole Sigil and Rune System, also when you think about something, like adding ascended runes and ascended sigils, which are also missing still and would be needed t be implemented to make ascended equipment complete.
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
Pretty sure that the developers commented on this in an earlier post, and confirmed that warriors will get more out of this than other classes. Just one more thing to give to warriors that no other class gets…..
Pretty sure that the developers commented on this in an earlier post, and confirmed that warriors will get more out of this than other classes. Just one more thing to give to warriors that no other class gets…..
#WarriorOP
Don’t all the devs play Warrior as well, thats…convenient.
Sorry but no excuse for this, the Sigils HAVE to be made to work the same for EVERY class they should NOT be better for one specific class
Best solution is to nerf warrior and remove fast hands altogether.
No more need to impose special nerfs to everyone else when one profession can be brought down alongside the rest of us.
Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU
Best solution is to nerf warrior and remove fast hands altogether.
No more need to impose special nerfs to everyone else when one profession can be brought down alongside the rest of us.
Its a stupid trait anyway. So best solution would be to remove the trait altogether and that would solve the issue 100% – Now what is the likelihood of that happening? Slim, Very slim
I’m pretty sure they’ll implement something so that fast hands doesn’t enhance sigils to ridiculous levels… I’m actually surprised they never nerfed sigil of energy previously like they did sigil of battle since it’s one of the most powerful sigils in the game. But I guess they may have had the sigil/rune balance thing in the works for awhile now, so there wasn’t much point in changing it.
You do realise they said sigils of the exact same kind will still share an icd. So 2 energy sigils will share the 9 second cooldown. This means no matter how many energy sigils you equip on warrior you will only get 1 proc every 9 seconds.
Warrior with fast hands:
0s: swap to energy sigil
5s: swap out of energy sigil
10s: swap to energy sigil
2 times proc in 10s.
No fast hands:
0s: swap to energy sigil
10s: swap out of energy sigil
20s swap to energy sigil
2 times proc in 20s.
Big difference in my opinion. Unless the sigils only start its cooldown when swapped out, then I will agree with you.
This is exactly how it is already right now. Its not an imbalance because of sigils. Its just a really strong trait. Some classes have to equip an energy sigil on each weaponset, warriors dont. Eles and engis dont have to either, atleast the warrior has to trait for it.
The issue arises when you are using different sigils. Example: Having a sigil of energy and a sigil of battle on 1 set, having a sigil of goemancy and hydromancy on the other. Swap to first set a proc 50% endurance and might, 5 seconds later you swapp to second set proccing AoE bleeds and Chill. That’s 4 different procs in a 10 second span. There several powerful combinations which I will not name that would ridiculously OP.
This is the issue that I bought up in a thread on sPvP the day after the news came out. The devs obviously didn’t consider it. They obviously didn’t reply to the thread and don’t comment on the issue.
And yes it will be completely broken. We all know it. Warrior is getting a massive buff with these changes
Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
There’s a thread somewhere (probably spvp forums) with a dev confirming that Warriors will be able to proc more ‘on swap’ sigils than any other class with the fast hands trait, and he goes on to say something like “they can do pretty amazing things” with it.
Best solution is to nerf warrior and remove fast hands altogether and give it to my gf.
You’re welcome.
Double fixed, because I want half second swap times.
fixed.
@OP i’m pretty sure this topic comes in too late for anet to see it, discukittenange it, test it, translate it fix the changes bugs. but oh well, just hope.
They should have thought of this from the start. The person mentioning Ele and Engineer – not quite sure what you are getting at, surely this change will buff EVERYONE with Warrior getting buffed the most thanks to the broken trait they have that is a minor trait at that – the only 2 classes that are limited to 2 sigils…Them being Ele and Engineer are the ones that should be questioning this.
Maybe I am missing something here. If the warrior has energy sigil in both weapons, how is it they are taking advantage of energy sigil over other classes if the energy sigil shares an ICD of 9 seconds? The cooldown doesn’t start until you are in combat and swap to the designated weapon containing the sigil.
The sigil will share the same ICD regardless of which weapon is equipped. Really I think having the energy sigil in both weapons will be a waste unless you swap weapons every 10 seconds. Since most warriors with fast hands swap every 5+ seconds then I would only put it on my primary weapon set.
Combat starts and you swap to your next weapon set procing energy. It starts the 9 second cooldown.
After 5 seconds the warrior swaps to the next weapon set but it will not proc energy due to the ICD.
Warrior swaps back to the original weapon set at 10 seconds and it will proc. This is no different from any other class. It’s the same for all weapon swap sigils. You can’t abuse Battle in this way either.
Guardian / Warrior / Thief / Necromancer
Black Gate – Immortals of the Mist [IoM]
Maybe I am missing something here. If the warrior has energy sigil in both weapons, how is it they are taking advantage of energy sigil over other classes if the energy sigil shares an ICD of 9 seconds?
Yeah I don’t even have any idea of what is going on in this thread, it was even making me confused.
Maybe I am missing something here. If the warrior has energy sigil in both weapons, how is it they are taking advantage of energy sigil over other classes if the energy sigil shares an ICD of 9 seconds?
Yeah I don’t even have any idea of what is going on in this thread, it was even making me confused.
The OP is wrong in assuming that you could spam sigils of energy and battle.
Here is what we know.
-On different on swap sigils will no longer share and ICD.
-if you equip the same sigil on 2 weapon sets it will only proc once every 9 secs.
-If you equip different sigils you will be able to proc each one of those every 9 secs.
Warrior with fast hands trait will be able to proc 4 different sigils every 10secs. They are the only class that will be able to do this. Here is how it works.
Swap to set 1 to proc sigils A and B, 5 seconds later swap to set 2 and proc sigils C and D, 5 seconds later swap back to set 1 and proc sigils A and B again.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
Maybe I am missing something here. If the warrior has energy sigil in both weapons, how is it they are taking advantage of energy sigil over other classes if the energy sigil shares an ICD of 9 seconds?
Yeah I don’t even have any idea of what is going on in this thread, it was even making me confused.
The OP is wrong in assuming that you could spam sigils of energy and battle.
Here is what we know.
-On different on swap sigils will no longer share and ICD.
-if you equip the same sigil on 2 weapon sets it will only proc once every 9 secs.
-If you equip different sigils you will be able to proc each one of those every 9 secs.
Warrior with fast hands trait will be able to proc 4 different sigils every 10secs. They are the only class that will be able to do this. Here is how it works.
Swap to set 1 to proc sigils A and B, 5 seconds later swap to set 2 and proc sigils C and D, 5 seconds later swap back to set 1 and proc sigils A and B again.
Agreed. Every single sigil that is proc’ing is a different sigil.
Weapon Set 1 – Battle + Energy
Weapon Set 2 – Hydromancy and Geomancy
That’s the only thing warriors will have over other classes. If they dropped the ICD of weapon swap sigils to 6-7 seconds that would at least come half way for Ele’s.
Guardian / Warrior / Thief / Necromancer
Black Gate – Immortals of the Mist [IoM]
…or just put add sigil of force in both and 2h weapons have become 5% stronger. Hopefully they’ll nerf 2h weapons to compensate for this additional sigil slot (as they did when eng kits were allowed to proc sigils), but afaik nothing had been confirmed.
…or just put add sigil of force in both and 2h weapons have become 5% stronger. Hopefully they’ll nerf 2h weapons to compensate for this additional sigil slot (as they did when eng kits were allowed to proc sigils), but afaik nothing had been confirmed.
lol what? You can’t stack 5% force sigils if that is what you are trying to say. The damage different between a 2h and a 1h is not huge either.
Guardian / Warrior / Thief / Necromancer
Black Gate – Immortals of the Mist [IoM]
…or just put add sigil of force in both and 2h weapons have become 5% stronger. Hopefully they’ll nerf 2h weapons to compensate for this additional sigil slot (as they did when eng kits were allowed to proc sigils), but afaik nothing had been confirmed.
lol what? You can’t stack 5% force sigils if that is what you are trying to say. The damage different between a 2h and a 1h is not huge either.
Nah, I’m not saying 2 force =‘s 10% on the weapon. Say if you used something like battle before (or whatever), you now have another slot open which you can toss in an additional sigil. Say you choose force. You’ve just increased the damage 5%.
Additional sigil =‘s more damage potential (among other things). Hence you need to nerf the 2h weapons to compensate. Unless you’re trying to say all 2h weapons are UP right now?
…or just put add sigil of force in both and 2h weapons have become 5% stronger. Hopefully they’ll nerf 2h weapons to compensate for this additional sigil slot (as they did when eng kits were allowed to proc sigils), but afaik nothing had been confirmed.
lol what? You can’t stack 5% force sigils if that is what you are trying to say. The damage different between a 2h and a 1h is not huge either.
Nah, I’m not saying 2 force =‘s 10% on the weapon. Say if you used something like battle before (or whatever), you now have another slot open which you can toss in an additional sigil. Say you choose force. You’ve just increased the damage 5%.
Additional sigil =‘s more damage potential (among other things). Hence you need to nerf the 2h weapons to compensate. Unless you’re trying to say all 2h weapons are UP right now?
A little off topic but I just had to add to this. The reason 2 hand weapons hit harder is because they are slower to wield. DPS wise many 1 hand weapons out damage 2h weapons. I’m don’t think stat increase sigils stack. Even if they don’t, I can already here the QQ for my Hammer equipped a sigil of force and sigil of impact. Hello Earthshaker combos, it’s going to be lolz.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
...or just put add sigil of force in both and 2h weapons have become 5% stronger. Hopefully they’ll nerf 2h weapons to compensate for this additional sigil slot (as they did when eng kits were allowed to proc sigils), but afaik nothing had been confirmed.
lol what? You can’t stack 5% force sigils if that is what you are trying to say. The damage different between a 2h and a 1h is not huge either.
Nah, I’m not saying 2 force =’s 10% on the weapon. Say if you used something like battle before (or whatever), you now have another slot open which you can toss in an additional sigil. Say you choose force. You’ve just increased the damage 5%.
Additional sigil =’s more damage potential (among other things). Hence you need to nerf the 2h weapons to compensate. Unless you’re trying to say all 2h weapons are UP right now?
Oh I see. What’s going to be scary is Battle + Strength sigil. Might creating monsters.
Greatsword warriors and high crit guardians using Empowering Might are going to terrorize everyone once they pick up Battle + Strength.
Guardian / Warrior / Thief / Necromancer
Black Gate – Immortals of the Mist [IoM]
They did say they would be re-balancing them all to 100% on crit for those types… hopefully they’ll be re-balancing energy etc. as well… but again… afaik no official info.
They did say they would be re-balancing them all to 100% on crit for those types… hopefully they’ll be re-balancing energy etc. as well… but again… afaik no official info.
I curious to see what they will come up with. Sigil of fire and Air with 100% on crit as it is now would be somewhat ridiculously OP on I precision builds. Sigil of blood would make healing signet, adrenal health warriors have even more mind blowing regen.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
Getting energy sigil proc every 10 seconds for 1/4 slots totally isn’t abusive at all… As if wars already aren’t hard enough to kill
Its already like that. Are you guys intentionally being ignorant? Cause im struggling to see what the problem is. The only advantage will be that warrior can take 4 different on swap sigils and get them to all proc every 10 seconds. But then how many decent on swap sigils are there? Energy and battle are the only ones i would use in pve. Its hardly a major imbalance.
you forget they are planning to rebalance every single sigil and every single runeset. so POTENTIALLY it could become an issue, and if, only for warrs.
Getting energy sigil proc every 10 seconds for 1/4 slots totally isn’t abusive at all… As if wars already aren’t hard enough to kill
Its already like that. Are you guys intentionally being ignorant? Cause im struggling to see what the problem is. The only advantage will be that warrior can take 4 different on swap sigils and get them to all proc every 10 seconds. But then how many decent on swap sigils are there? Energy and battle are the only ones i would use in pve. Its hardly a major imbalance.
A little imbalance in PvE won’t have a ton of people crying OMG OP. Being able to proc 4 different on swap sigils will make my OP PvP and WvW warrior builds even more OP. Thieves will also have some pretty crazy builds with the 100% on crit sigils which won’t share and ICD anymore either.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
A little imbalance in PvE won’t have a ton of people crying OMG OP. Being able to proc 4 different on swap sigils will make my OP PvP and WvW warrior builds even more OP.
I was using pve as an example. Please list the on swap sigil combo’s that you would consider op. Because im still not seeing the issue. Its an advantage yes, not op though.
And i imagine they will tone down warriors in the patch at the same time. So hopefully warriors wont be so completely op after that.
Thieves will also have some pretty crazy builds with the 100% on crit sigils which won’t share and ICD anymore either.
So will every other class. It seems like you guys are just speculating and using it as an excuse to ask for nerfs to other classes. I suggest you wait until we have more info or until the patch hits. Theres no way of knowing how things will turn out until we know more.
A little imbalance in PvE won’t have a ton of people crying OMG OP. Being able to proc 4 different on swap sigils will make my OP PvP and WvW warrior builds even more OP.
I was using pve as an example. Please list the on swap sigil combo’s that you would consider op. Because im still not seeing the issue. Its an advantage yes, not op though.
And i imagine they will tone down warriors in the patch at the same time. So hopefully warriors wont be so completely op after that.
Thieves will also have some pretty crazy builds with the 100% on crit sigils which won’t share and ICD anymore either.
So will every other class. It seems like you guys are just speculating and using it as an excuse to ask for nerfs to other classes. I suggest you wait until we have more info or until the patch hits. Theres no way of knowing how things will turn out until we know more.
Of course I am just speculating, we have very little information on any of these changes and given Anets track record on class balance all we can do is speculate on possible outcomes using what we know and proposed changes in the proposed balance update notes.
My SS/LB dualing build is already really strong 1v1, if I had a sigil of geomancy and a sigil of doom on 1 set with a sigil of intelligence and a sigil of fire (which is supposedly going to be 100% on crit) on the second set it would drasctically increase my condition damage potential compared to other condi classes that can only proc 2 sigils every 10 seconds. Even using a sigil of battle and a sigil of hydromancy on the second set would drastically increase my DPS compared to other condi builds.
Thieves already have insane bursts from stealth and can trait for 100% crit from stealth. Imagine a thief bursting from stealth and proccing both sigil of fire and air simultaneously , smells OP to me.
My WvW roaming hammer warrior has 99% crit chance on ES. I could do insane damage as well by proccing sigils of fire and air on an already strong Earthshaker.
I can already see some might stacking monsters using sigil of battle and sigil of strength.
This is one hell of a power creep that Anet is throwing at us.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
