Guild Wars 2

runeblade.7514:

So you prefer elementalist stays weak so that downed state 2 will be uncounterable.

Okay.

Nice straw man.

So you want the profession who doesn’t have a competitively viable option and gets downed the most, to instantly die instead?

Okay.

I think this thread was made by a thief that just wants to collect the loot bag that is an ele in less than 3 seconds. 1 hit ele to downed state, counter anti stomp and collect loot. Boo hoo, ele lasts 3 extra seconds because of vapor form. Nerfa nerfa nerfa.

There is no need to nerf this skill. It isn’t overpowered. It’s not as if they can attack you during that 3 seconds. I wonder if “Vengeance” allows warriors to collect loot and go through portals….

Aberrant.6749:

zencow.3651:

runeblade.7514:

zencow.3651:

How to stomp mesmers like a pro: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56s0toOVCL0

Apply the same to thieves and eles but also use a teleport and you’re sure to get ’em most of the time.

You’re in the wrong thread. This thread is about elementalist vapor form.

It’s a proof of concept. Double tap + teleport does work on eles with you time it right. Eles by norm has to use 3 skills to achieve one effect, it’s perfectly reasonable enough that other classes have to try a little harder stomping them.

Both are based on player error… I wouldn’t consider either a counter because of that.

Why the kitten does eng have such an easily countered downed state when it’s the class that needs the most input to achieve a result? Eng should have the best downed state in the game if that was their criteria. Sounds like very odd criteria for balance btw…

That is entirely untrue. In terms of sheer number of skills to manage, if that’s what you mean, elementalists are at baseline equal to 3-kit engineers, and that is ignoring all conjures and glyphs, as well as attunement changes themselves.
Elementalists are also unequivocally the highest skillcap class in the game, if you happened to mean that instead.
That being said, engi downstate could probably use a buff.

Fortus.6175:

Whats next, reducing their health pool to minimun, give them light armor, nerf their healing in every patch and make all their skills have 40+ secs CD with highly telegraphed and long casting animations?!

It’s like people don’t know a balanced class when they see one.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

That is entirely untrue. In terms of sheer number of skills to manage, if that’s what you mean, elementalists are at baseline equal to 3-kit engineers, and that is ignoring all conjures and glyphs, as well as attunement changes themselves.
Elementalists are also unequivocally the highest skillcap class in the game, if you happened to mean that instead.
That being said, engi downstate could probably use a buff.

Ele has 20 weapon + 3 utility + heal + elite = 25
3 kit eng has 20 weapon-ish skills (kits) + 4 toolbelt + heal + elite = 26

You could get more though conjured weapons as ele which I admit I didn’t think about at the time I posted, but that’s kinda meh since when you use them you’re just down to 5 + utilities + effects from swapping, etc.

I find that Ele is more rotational than eng. Eng more often swaps between kits to do one effect then swaps between more to produce another to take advantage of that first one… just look at what an eng has to do to multi blast a field… it’s like playing a kitten piano. That’s not to say that ele doesn’t do that to an extent as well, but the cd on attunements limits that a bit (I hope that made sense, it’s late and I’m crashing from too much coffee atm so sorry if it didn’t, lol). The only ele spec that I’ve found comes close to the sheer amount of buttons you need to press vs. eng is a fresh air ele. I still find that eng requires more work/button pushes to use even then though.

In terms of difficulty/skill cap that depends on how you mean that and this could be sort of a loaded point. If ele wasn’t in such a bad place balance wise (aka as they have been in the past) I would put eng above ele in terms of skill needed to perform well/best. I wouldn’t say either one has unequivocally the higher skill cap. On either one a single misspress mistake or slight bit of lag can easily kitten you. They both have different weaknesses… and it may well just come down to the matchup/fight at hand as to which is harder (srsly necro v. eng is redic hard for the eng). They are both up there though in terms of required skill for sure.

I still find that number of buttons needed to be pressed =’s stronger downed state to be odd logic either way though.

Just wondering… do you have/use an eng on a regular basis? (Not meant as an insult, just a question)

P.S. I think we’ve veered off topic a bit, but I’ve enjoyed this conversation xD

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Aberrant.6749:

zencow.3651:

runeblade.7514:

zencow.3651:

How to stomp mesmers like a pro: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56s0toOVCL0

Apply the same to thieves and eles but also use a teleport and you’re sure to get ’em most of the time.

You’re in the wrong thread. This thread is about elementalist vapor form.

It’s a proof of concept. Double tap + teleport does work on eles with you time it right. Eles by norm has to use 3 skills to achieve one effect, it’s perfectly reasonable enough that other classes have to try a little harder stomping them.

Both are based on player error… I wouldn’t consider either a counter because of that.

Why the kitten does eng have such an easily countered downed state when it’s the class that needs the most input to achieve a result? Eng should have the best downed state in the game if that was their criteria. Sounds like very odd criteria for balance btw…

That is entirely untrue. In terms of sheer number of skills to manage, if that’s what you mean, elementalists are at baseline equal to 3-kit engineers, and that is ignoring all conjures and glyphs, as well as attunement changes themselves.
Elementalists are also unequivocally the highest skillcap class in the game, if you happened to mean that instead.
That being said, engi downstate could probably use a buff.

Call it what you want, skill/luck/prediction/player error but if it stops the opponent from doing that they want, it’s a counter.

On the topic of downed skills:
The downed skills of the engineer actually suits the class and sPvP purpose in bunkering though. Engis have access to knockblack/blowout/pull that come in many flavors that the opponent can’t out stability and stunbreak. They downed skills are also hard-CC oriented to contest the point even when they are down if they had exhausted the opponent’s stability/stunbreak/invul options when they were alive i.e. skillful play reward.
Hint: You can cancel your 2 with [Esc] if suspecting a cancel stomp dodge and it will be back in time for the next stomp, which if it lands then your 3 is up which is very long node stalling along with warrior’s downed state.

Vapor Form doesn’t even contest a point and Grasping Earth is useless. I would agree with making Grappling Hook a faster cast though.

If it’s a thief that downed you then you’re screwed no matter who you are if the situation is still a 1v1.

Massively off-topic:
Engis and Eles are pretty equal. You can basically count kits as attunements and toolbelt skills as utility skills.

The difference between a pistol/shield 3-kit engi, popularly nade, bomb and toolkit, and an ele is that engis have much more potent skills that are on shorter cooldowns with shorter cast times, 2 blocks and much more CC as well as many conditions and pumping out much sustained damage with great access to poison.

They however have poor condi resistance outside Automated Response and don’t have access to stability and stunbreak so they have to spam their hearts out dropping bombs and throwing nades behind them when having to deal with melee while they kite.

Cantrip Eles have stunbreaks and limited stability but their sustained damage is crap and bursts comboes typically have 45+ CDs and they suffer from constant backpedal lag from having to constantly facing the opponent and can’t swap their range.

zencow.3651:

Call it what you want, skill/luck/prediction/player error but if it stops the opponent from doing that they want, it’s a counter.

On the topic of downed skills:
The downed skills of the engineer actually suits the class and sPvP purpose in bunkering though. Engis have access to knockblack/blowout/pull that come in many flavors that the opponent can’t out stability and stunbreak. They downed skills are also hard-CC oriented to contest the point even when they are down if they had exhausted the opponent’s stability/stunbreak/invul options when they were alive i.e. skillful play reward.
Hint: You can cancel your 2 with [Esc] if suspecting a cancel stomp dodge and it will be back in time for the next stomp, which if it lands then your 3 is up which is very long node stalling along with warrior’s downed state.

Vapor Form doesn’t even contest a point and Grasping Earth is useless. I would agree with making Grappling Hook a faster cast though.

If it’s a thief that downed you then you’re screwed no matter who you are if the situation is still a 1v1.

Nah, if it’s dependent on a player royally kittening up that’s not a counter. That’s akin to saying it’s fine for things to be balanced based upon the lowest player skill. I highly disagree with that.

Eng downed would be fine if it actually required them to use a skill to counter. As is even if you get rid of all blocks/stability/etc. (not the easiest thing to do in pratice) you can just stand behind another player/pet/itty bitty rock that somehow causes it to be obstructed/whatever… or have two players frekkin’ anywhere and stomp together. Thematically it’s fine, but in practice… not so much. It has too many counters (the opposite problem vs. vapor form).

In a 1v1 regardless of the classes you’re probably going to be kittened if you go down first.

zencow.3651:

runeblade.7514:

So you prefer elementalist stays weak so that downed state 2 will be uncounterable.

Okay.

Nice straw man.

So you want the profession who doesn’t have a competitively viable option and gets downed the most, to instantly die instead?

Okay.

Not really. Your argument was that Ele = weak so therefore down state must be stronk.

To answer your question, I don’t care what state elementalist is in, as long as vapor form is counterable like every other downed skill.

OP is right. Mist form downed state is too powerful.

However, this is not the time to nerf it.

oh look another nerf the vapor form thread, that’s cool. The people here that say its the only skill that can 100% stop a stomp need to go look again.

The only and I do mean only way it can stop it is if they are right next to a gate when they go down. And even then they can be stunned to where they can’t move, Null and voiding it. Other then that you can still stomp them all it is a stall tactic.

The fact that people here a complaining about a downed state skill, is just sad. Yes it “CAN” be strong but only so long as they are near a gate, other wise is more or less pointless.

Thedenofsin.7340:

OP is right. Mist form downed state is too powerful.

However, this is not the time to nerf it.

I could agree with that. Personally I’m more with the fact that they haven’t done hardly anything at all to balance the downed states overall.

MasterMc.7543:

oh look another nerf the vapor form thread, that’s cool. The people here that say its the only skill that can 100% stop a stomp need to go look again.

The only and I do mean only way it can stop it is if they are right next to a gate when they go down. And even then they can be stunned to where they can’t move, Null and voiding it. Other then that you can still stomp them all it is a stall tactic.

The fact that people here a complaining about a downed state skill, is just sad. Yes it “CAN” be strong but only so long as they are near a gate, other wise is more or less pointless.

…Or if there are allies around to revive you which is helped by being able to reposition and removes all conditions on 2nd down… it also gives your allies more time no matter what the situation is… which is the whole point of the downed state in PvP/WvW…

Aberrant.6749:

Thedenofsin.7340:

OP is right. Mist form downed state is too powerful.

However, this is not the time to nerf it.

I could agree with that. Personally I’m more with the fact that they haven’t done hardly anything at all to balance the downed states overall.

MasterMc.7543:

oh look another nerf the vapor form thread, that’s cool. The people here that say its the only skill that can 100% stop a stomp need to go look again.

The only ………………………

…Or if there are allies around to revive you which is helped by being able to reposition and removes all conditions on 2nd down… it also gives your allies more time no matter what the situation is… which is the whole point of the downed state in PvP/WvW…

if allies are near by, then it just to allow your allies more time like you said. In which case; Guardian 2, Engi 3, Theif 2 & 3, Mesmer 2, and Necro 2 would do much of the same thing, buying your allies more time.

OP is just a thief who spams hide and teleport. WHY U GET TWO SKILLS TO STOP ME STOMPING YOU!JSAFLLBHJASDF

General Question:

Why is the Ele Downstate being considered OP?

Thief 2 and Mesmer 2 achieve the same thing.
Thief 2 is uncounterable when timed optimally.
Mesmer 2 is only counterable by thief and mesmers with stealth.

I see WvW anger that when ele’s take advantage of their proximity to keeps they Vapor Form into them. That might be fine by the devs it might not.

However, I have yet to see a valid point that shows the ele has an OP downstate.

So the question remains. What makes the ele downstate OP?

Shockwave.1230:

So the question remains. What makes the ele downstate OP?

This. I just don’t understand it. It is during a MINOR situation. It requires a certain situation to even be used. I mean Ele have been nerfed everywhere else – So why not just let them have this?

Lowest Health, Lowest Armour, Longest utility cool downs….

Shockwave.1230:

General Question:

Why is the Ele Downstate being considered OP?

Thief 2 and Mesmer 2 achieve the same thing.
Thief 2 is uncounterable when timed optimally.
Mesmer 2 is only counterable by thief and mesmers with stealth.

I see WvW anger that when ele’s take advantage of their proximity to keeps they Vapor Form into them. That might be fine by the devs it might not.

However, I have yet to see a valid point that shows the ele has an OP downstate.

So the question remains. What makes the ele downstate OP?

For me, I consider it imbalanced for 5 reasons:

1. The ele can jump off ledges while in vapor form, meaning they can deliberately cancel any repair costs in some cases, whereas other professions can’t do this (a minor thing though). However, sometime they can jump off cliffs and still survive the fall due to the way vapor form works, meaning the opponent now has to jump down their to stomp them if they can’t hit them with ranged attacks.

2. It also allows the ele a chance to enter a body of water, which prevents the opponent from attempting another stomp and instead require them to enter to water as well or range them down (which can easily take longer than just stomping again). Sometimes the water downed state is a bit glitchy too, and just continually bobbing up to the surface can really waste an enemy’s time.

3. The ability has an instant cast time. Compare this to the necro, engg, or warrior, who have exceptionally long and extremely telegraphed casts on their abilities. If the ele had a similar cast time, it would provide a tell where the opponents will be able to recognize when to apply an immob or put up a wall. Since you’re momentarily invulnerable when downed, the ele can choose to immediately cast vapor form and move away before any of the current counters can be set up properly.

4. IIRC (and it’s possible I don’t), you can switch attunements while in vapor form, proccing attunement swapping benefits such as getting condition clearing by swapping to water. This can possibly remove something like poison from you, which is often applied to further handicap downed individuals. No other profession is able to access their class features while downed (again, I’m pretty sure eles can do this, but I’d have to double check).

5. It allows you to move inside WvW tower and keep gates. While this requires the ele to be in a specific location, performing this action can provide a guaranteed method of self-escape, which is not capable by the other professions. Personally, I wouldn’t mind this quality of vapor form if it were the #3 ability, but having it on the #2 makes it quite potent. Warriors are also capable of entering the gates, but it is linked to their #3 ability, and they will generally die anyways instead of being able to completely save themselves. The downed state is intended for players to have a last ditch effort against their opponent, and to buy time for allies to assist them, not to enable them to completely prevent themselves from dying at all.

As for thief and mesmer, thief #2 is not uncounterable, but it is difficult to counter. The most common thing to do is use a blink ability to move to the thief just as they blink away. However, the thief is also required to make a “skill shot” with their ability, and if they delay too long in setting it up, they may just get stomped. If the thief does not blink far enough away, the stomp can still hit, although the blink it fairly short range so you usually have to take a second or two to line up the cursor in the proper place. Additionally, it can end up clipping on terrain and ruining the blink. In comparison, the ele does not need to line anything up and simply needs to press one button. I do think the #3 ability for the thief charges up a bit too fast. If you don’t attempt to stomp them right away and force their #2 ability, they will have their #3 up easily. The #2 could possibly also use a short case time so that you can react to it better with your own blink.

As for mesmer, you can counter it with a stomp cancel and restomp, although the timing can be a bit difficult, and it’s not a guaranteed counter. Half the professions have stealth available for countering it as well. IMO it should also be able to be countered by a blind or a block, but they’d probably have to refactor the entire ability for that. The mesmer displacement is also random, so sometimes you actually port yourself into the middle of AoEs where no one has a chance of helping you instead of back a ways towards your buddies.

All in all, there’s a lot of discrepancies with the downed state stuff, it’s just that the ele’s vapor form is quite possibly the most annoying out of everything, especially in WvW.

Yamsandjams.3267:

—snip due to length —

3. The ability has an instant cast time. Compare this to the necro, engg, or warrior, who have exceptionally long and extremely telegraphed casts on their abilities. If the ele had a similar cast time, it would provide a tell where the opponents will be able to recognize when to apply an immob or put up a wall. Since you’re momentarily invulnerable when downed, the ele can choose to immediately cast vapor form and move away before any of the current counters can be set up properly.

4. IIRC (and it’s possible I don’t), you can switch attunements while in vapor form, proccing attunement swapping benefits such as getting condition clearing by swapping to water. This can possibly remove something like poison from you, which is often applied to further handicap downed individuals. No other profession is able to access their class features while downed (again, I’m pretty sure eles can do this, but I’d have to double check).

5. It allows you to move inside WvW tower and keep gates. While this requires the ele to be in a specific location, performing this action can provide a guaranteed method of self-escape, which is not capable by the other professions. Personally, I wouldn’t mind this quality of vapor form if it were the #3 ability, but having it on the #2 makes it quite potent. Warriors are also capable of entering the gates, but it is linked to their #3 ability, and they will generally die anyways instead of being able to completely save themselves. The downed state is intended for players to have a last ditch effort against their opponent, and to buy time for allies to assist them, not to enable them to completely prevent themselves from dying at all.

As for thief and mesmer, thief #2 is not uncounterable, but it is difficult to counter. The most common thing to do is use a blink ability to move to the thief just as they blink away. However, the thief is also required to make a “skill shot” with their ability, and if they delay too long in setting it up, they may just get stomped. If the thief does not blink far enough away, the stomp can still hit, although the blink it fairly short range so you usually have to take a second or two to line up the cursor in the proper place. Additionally, it can end up clipping on terrain and ruining the blink. In comparison, the ele does not need to line anything up and simply needs to press one button. I do think the #3 ability for the thief charges up a bit too fast. If you don’t attempt to stomp them right away and force their #2 ability, they will have their #3 up easily. The #2 could possibly also use a short case time so that you can react to it better with your own blink.

As for mesmer, you can counter it with a stomp cancel and restomp, although the timing can be a bit difficult, and it’s not a guaranteed counter.

Interesting points

1. + 2. have counterplay. Snares or launching an ele away from a ledge/body of water before they vapor form.

3. has precedence as thief and ranger have instant cast, and Mist Form is instant cast so it makes sense Vapor Form would be too. Not sure if engi is or isn’t instant cast.

4. is an intersting point, but I’m not sure if it’s true or not. If it is maybe it’d be worth fixing ,but maybe not.

5. has been documented, maybe it’s okay or maybe not. If it’s a problem to the devs it can be addressed on it’s own without additional impact to the skill in other areas.

In general I believe games should be balanced around top end game play, because I see it as a way of helping players see what’s possible and helps them get better.

I firmly believe Thief 2 is uncounterable, because I don’t get stomped while it’s off CD. That doesn’t mean I’m a great thief it just means I know when to use that skill.

Mesmer 2 is only counterable by stealth, which is only readily available to Mesmer and Thief. I do realize that the Engi and Ranger ‘can’ stealth, Engi can pull off a stealth stomp. Ranger I don’t believe can because of the after cast on Hunter’s shot. So this is counterable by 2 professions on the regular and 1 profession when they have stealth off cool down and are using the skill. That’s less than 3/8 of scenarios. Cancel and restomp only works if the mesmer player messes up.

I did think of something potentially, maybe daze/stun if available via instant cast can be used while stomping to put Ele/Thief/Mesmer 2 skills on cooldown? Not sure.

All in all, when I hear a skill is OP it means that it’s pretty much required to run. Even if ele’s get buffed to be a bigger part of the Meta I don’t think Vapor Form is going to make people feel like they have to run an ele over something else. In the case of the ele in the down state, it doesn’t make it impossible to kill. It makes it harder to kill until either it’s health runs out from regular damage or until the skill has been used.

What the hell.. Isnt it considered rude beating on a already beaten man. Elementalist needs every little buff there is not nerfs.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Shockwave.1230:

General Question:

Why is the Ele Downstate being considered OP?

Thief 2 and Mesmer 2 achieve the same thing.
Thief 2 is uncounterable when timed optimally.
Mesmer 2 is only counterable by thief and mesmers with stealth.

I see WvW anger that when ele’s take advantage of their proximity to keeps they Vapor Form into them. That might be fine by the devs it might not.

However, I have yet to see a valid point that shows the ele has an OP downstate.

So the question remains. What makes the ele downstate OP?

For me, I consider it imbalanced for 5 reasons:

1. The ele can jump off ledges…………………………..
.

1- jumping off cliff will kill ele, and still give repair damage.
2- they will still be in down state and for the most part can only be done in bay and eb green keep, talk about very situational.
3- can be countered by stuns/roots.
4- did not know you could will have to try, but even then what are you really going to get from it? a minor boon?
5- Yet again situational, have to be in range of gate, have to not get stunned/rooted, have to be first down or condi/ aoe spam will kill before you can vapor.

Still sound way to situational to be any kind of op.

MasterMc.7543:

Aberrant.6749:

Thedenofsin.7340:

OP is right. Mist form downed state is too powerful.

However, this is not the time to nerf it.

I could agree with that. Personally I’m more with the fact that they haven’t done hardly anything at all to balance the downed states overall.

MasterMc.7543:

oh look another nerf the vapor form thread, that’s cool. The people here that say its the only skill that can 100% stop a stomp need to go look again.

The only ………………………

…Or if there are allies around to revive you which is helped by being able to reposition and removes all conditions on 2nd down… it also gives your allies more time no matter what the situation is… which is the whole point of the downed state in PvP/WvW…

if allies are near by, then it just to allow your allies more time like you said. In which case; Guardian 2, Engi 3, Theif 2 & 3, Mesmer 2, and Necro 2 would do much of the same thing, buying your allies more time.

They are all far more vulnerable to being countered… Eng 3 btw… really?… that’s presuming eng 2 does didlly squat. Necro 2 also suffers from only being able to stop a single stomper… and is easily countered. How about this then… swap ele 2 for necro 2 but make it a gust of wind instead to keep it thematically ele. I mean it does much of the same thing right? -.-

Aberrant.6749:

They are all far more vulnerable to being countered… Eng 3 btw… really?… that’s presuming eng 2 does didlly squat. Necro 2 also suffers from only being able to stop a single stomper… and is easily countered. How about this then… swap ele 2 for necro 2 but make it a gust of wind instead to keep it thematically ele. I mean it does much of the same thing right? -.-

Sure, if eles get a buff to their CCs so they could actually force out stabilities before getting downed and their downed #3 actually did anything, and if conditions inflicted by the necro are all instantly wiped the moment they are downed.

Aberrant.6749:

MasterMc.7543:

Aberrant.6749:

Thedenofsin.7340:

OP is right. Mist form downed state is too powerful.

However, this is not the time to nerf it.

I could agree with that. Personally I’m more with the fact that they haven’t done hardly anything at all to balance the downed states overall.

MasterMc.7543:

oh look another nerf the vapor form thread, that’s cool. The people here that say its the only skill that can 100% stop a stomp need to go look again.

The only ………………………

…Or if there are allies around to revive you which is helped by being able to reposition and removes all conditions on 2nd down… it also gives your allies more time no matter what the situation is… which is the whole point of the downed state in PvP/WvW…

if allies are near by, then it just to allow your allies more time like you said. In which case; Guardian 2, Engi 3, Theif 2 & 3, Mesmer 2, and Necro 2 would do much of the same thing, buying your allies more time.

They are all far more vulnerable to being countered… Eng 3 btw… really?… that’s presuming eng 2 does didlly squat. Necro 2 also suffers from only being able to stop a single stomper… and is easily countered. How about this then… swap ele 2 for necro 2 but make it a gust of wind instead to keep it thematically ele. I mean it does much of the same thing right? -.-

All these downs skill can be countered one way or another. Vapor Meet Root/ Immobilized. Fear meet stability.

The vapor form is only better if your allies have a solid point of defense that you can run to within range, other wise no much better then the fear. And that’s also only if you don’t get locked down and die from aoe spam. But I will give ya that one in some cases of open combat vapor does out shine here.

but at the same time go ahead and compare necro down one to ele’s

Necro- Damage Damage (20x): 1,100 Healing.png Pulse Heal: 202
Ele- Damage Damage: 195 Vulnerability.png Vulnerability: 10 s

Ele’s might be able to run away and possible get a rez, while necro are more likely to rally.

I am not saying vapor form doesn’t save ele’s from some deaths, I am saying its, not op to the point it needs to be changed. Especially if one takes into account the class as a whole and not just the down skill comparisons.

zencow.3651:

Aberrant.6749:

They are all far more vulnerable to being countered… Eng 3 btw… really?… that’s presuming eng 2 does didlly squat. Necro 2 also suffers from only being able to stop a single stomper… and is easily countered. How about this then… swap ele 2 for necro 2 but make it a gust of wind instead to keep it thematically ele. I mean it does much of the same thing right? -.-

Sure, if eles get a buff to their CCs so they could actually force out stabilities before getting downed and their downed #3 actually did anything, and if conditions inflicted by the necro are all instantly wiped the moment they are downed.

Even if ele did get more cc… they still wouldn’t be anywhere close. One is an effect which you need to bait out every single stability etc. to stop ONE stomper… while the other is 100% from any number of stompers regardless of what goes on during the fight… those two to do basically the same thing how???? Both ele and necro 3’s are pretty rubbish.

All conds on you are wiped when you go down… and ele gets to do this twice… so I’m not sure what you mean by that last line? Am I misunderstanding what you meant?

MasterMc.7543:

All these downs skill can be countered one way or another. Vapor Meet Root/ Immobilized. Fear meet stability.

The vapor form is only better if your allies have a solid point of defense that you can run to within range, other wise no much better then the fear. And that’s also only if you don’t get locked down and die from aoe spam. But I will give ya that one in some cases of open combat vapor does out shine here.

but at the same time go ahead and compare necro down one to ele’s

Necro- Damage Damage (20x): 1,100 Healing.png Pulse Heal: 202
Ele- Damage Damage: 195 Vulnerability.png Vulnerability: 10 s

Ele’s might be able to run away and possible get a rez, while necro are more likely to rally.

I am not saying vapor form doesn’t save ele’s from some deaths, I am saying its, not op to the point it needs to be changed. Especially if one takes into account the class as a whole and not just the down skill comparisons.

Please tell me how a root allows me to stomp an ele on the first try…

So damage in downed state might be ok PvE wise, but PvP you’re not going to kill another player if you go down first. The necro is just going to get their #2 countered and then stomped.

It’s the strongest downed state and has no counter. The class as a whole could use some love… but that should be done for the ele while he/she is still alive. At least I know I would prefer my ele to be stronger up Vs. downed…

The class as a whole when it comes to downed states isn’t a good argument either. Classes have been buffed and nerfed many many times. Why haven’t the downed states also been altered more than what… twice on one class… if that’s part of it? Necro’s haven’t always been in the best position balance wise, yet their downed state has always been poor. It just doesn’t seem to be a factor at all looking back at the changes that have been made to the classes.

Uhhh mesmer down state skill can’t be countered….

If the ele is going through doors while in vapor form, there’s a simple solution…………. don’t fight near doors.

Also… the ele is in downed state… so what if he/she delays the inevitable? You’re still going to kill it.

Shockwave.1230:

So the question remains. What makes the ele downstate OP?

Because Ele downstate cannot be countered through any means.

Thief needs a teleport from Judge intervention or Steal.
Mesmer needs a reveal from a Ranger or stealth from Engineers, thief, mesmer.

Immobilize is not a counter. You cannot stomp through vapor form, and you cannot prevent it from happening.

Deli.1302:

Uhhh mesmer down state skill can’t be countered….

If the ele is going through doors while in vapor form, there’s a simple solution…………. don’t fight near doors.

Also… the ele is in downed state… so what if he delays the inevitable. You’re still going to kill him.

………

It’s been explained several times in this thread how you can counter mesmer’s downed state. It requires a target. Stealth denies them a target. Stealth counters the mesmer’s downed state. You can also have a ranger reveal them.

The “so what” is that it does this every single time and can not be countered thus giving allies longer to respond/aid you. Not everything is a 1v1 where you have all the time you want to stomp the ele and don’t need to worry about anything else… but in a 1v1 you are correct… the downed states don’t really matter.

There’s no counter for two #2 skills. Thief and ele (no teleport doesn’t counter thief that knows to use 2 at the last possible moment) . Mesmer has 1 counter which is stealth (only viable from thief, Mesmer, or engi all other professions can’t counter it).

No matter what way you cut it there’s precedence for the skill to be uncounterable because of those other two profession #2 down skills.

Also some of these arguments lean towards homogenizing down states. If the game were going to be truly balanced there’d only be 1 class and 1 build.

Additionally many people straight up overlooking the weak offensive capabilities ele has while downed, which gives further leeway for having a strong defensive downstate.

In some people’s opinion ele downstate is OP, reality shows that people as a whole don’t see that to be true, because if they did everyone would run ele. But everyone doesn’t, because the downstate isn’t OP and because you can still kill an ele. It just requires you to play smarter and know what to do situationally. One of the most amusing things I’ve noticed is when people complain from a pvp perspective. As if it’s the best move to finish players that are in a down state instead of getting them to 1/3 health and leaving them so they’re out of the action longer or one of their teammates has to divert to respond them efficiently.

In any case, ANet clearly doesn’t view Vapor Form as an issue. They said they’d closely monitor the change of making it skill 2 from skill 3, and that must have been nearly a year ago. So it’s not a problem in their mind. It’s not a problem in my mind either and I normally play a thief that can counter any other downstate except my own when played well or the ele’s.

Not everything has to have a hard counter. Invincibility from other skills has no counter, if the argument is that everything needs a hard counter than people need to look at other games and understand it’s okay that not everything has a hard counter.

Tl;dr
Ele downstate isn’t OP, and not everything in a game needs a hard counter.

You could always try to predict what moment they will mistform at, then cancel your stomp to start it again right then. If you have immobilize on them, you will still get the stomp, if you don’t you can just teleport to where they will be.
That’s about as much guesswork as you need to stomp a thief on the first try too.

Mugi pulls off a vapor form stomp in this vid.

Change the downed state to be whatever attunement to ele was downed in.
Something like:

Water: Vapor form – same as current (reduced duration from 3 to 2 seconds)
Fire: Conflagration – single target 4 second burn with a 1 second fear.
Earth: Seismic wave – PBAoE knockedown pulsing twice for 2 seconds
Air: Judgement bolt – high direct damage lightning bolt with a 300 range blowout.

None are inherently overpowered, water still allows ele’s a downed escape, but opens up more counter play through blink stomps as the duration is shorter.
Fire suffers from the same flaws as other downstate interrupts but adds a nice burn even if the interrupt is negated through stability.
Earth allows of a second interrupt meaning blind stomps need to be reapplied but deals no damage.
Air is a strong attack but like fire it’s interrupt can be negated.
It will add another element of choice for the ele player to decide which downstate would be most useful in a given situation prior to being downed (if they get that luxury :P)

Shockwave.1230:

There’s no counter for two #2 skills. Thief and ele (no teleport doesn’t counter thief that knows to use 2 at the last possible moment) .

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Judge's_Intervention
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steal

You can use these in the last possible second too.

Are people stupid? You’re not supposed to stomp an Ele, ever. Just burst them down during downed state and/or leave a whole bunch of conditions on them. They will die.

Wintel.4873:

Are people stupid? You’re not supposed to stomp an Ele, ever. Just burst them down during downed state and/or leave a whole bunch of conditions on them. They will die.

Are you stupid? The point of this thread is to discuss why it should be removed.

Shockwave.1230:

Additionally many people straight up overlooking the weak offensive capabilities ele has while downed, which gives further leeway for having a strong defensive downstate.

This is something I think needs to be buffed on ele downed state. The #1 is not good at all due to it’s slow cast speed, and the #3 is mostly ignored since it serves extremely little purpose. In most instances, the #1 and #3 may as well not exist on the ele’s downed bar, only the #2 matters at all given it’s capabilities.

Shockwave.1230:

In some people’s opinion ele downstate is OP, reality shows that people as a whole don’t see that to be true, because if they did everyone would run ele.

I’m very sure that people do not base their character decisions primarily on the downed state abilities, so I don’t think that conclusion is valid.

Shockwave.1230:

In any case, ANet clearly doesn’t view Vapor Form as an issue. They said they’d closely monitor the change of making it skill 2 from skill 3, and that must have been nearly a year ago. So it’s not a problem in their mind. It’s not a problem in my mind either and I normally play a thief that can counter any other downstate except my own when played well or the ele’s.

Much like underwater combat, downed state abilities are something that receive very little attention at all. For instance, shadow assault enabled thieves to be effectively invulnerable underwater indefinitely, which was a problem since day 1 of the game. However, it took nearly a year for them to make any sort of adjustment to the ability. Similarly, a warrior’s vengeance downed ability used to have a 5 second invulnerable period and could contest control points, but it took them about a year to adjust that ability as well. My guess is that they probably have some ideas for retooling the downed state abilities, but it’s so far down the priority chart that they won’t be getting changed anytime soon, if ever. Just because the devs haven’t made a statement or indicated any changes to it doesn’t mean they don’t see it as a potential issue.

Shockwave.1230:

Not everything has to have a hard counter. Invincibility from other skills has no counter, if the argument is that everything needs a hard counter than people need to look at other games and understand it’s okay that not everything has a hard counter.

Other games have balance issues to, which are generally not considered acceptable by their players. In fact, it’s quite common for people to classify abilities as overpowered if they don’t have any sort of reasonable counter. If you look at something like hammer toss and grappling line (warrior and engg downed #2s, respectively), they both have a significant cast time and recognizable tell, and are countered by block (i.e. aegis), blind, stability, stealth, LOS obscurement (i.e. pets, minions, or terrain in the way), and can even be dodged for a quicker restomp. It’s hard to argue that the ele downed #2 is not way more useful.

Now in general I think it’s fair to say that not all classes need to do all the same things and such. However, players do not have a choice about their downed state. In normal play, I select weapons, utilities, traits, &c. to make my build function a certain way, so it is possible to adjust to specific scenarios I may face. However, I have no choice of what I get in my downed state. As such, I cannot choose between an ability that prevents stability from guaranteeing a stomp but can still be hit by a stealth stomp, or choose an ability that can’t prevent a stomp at all but inflicts a lot of damage on my enemy to try and down them too. If they’re not going to give players this level of choice, things need to be more even across the playing field. And no, I don’t think saying “ele’s downed state is powerful to compensate for their weak non-downed state”, because neither state should be affecting balance conditions in the other.

Now maybe the solution is just to buff some of the other profession’s downed abilities to be as universally useful as the ele’s (or even the thief’s and mesmer’s), but I think that would just annoy people even more. I mean, imagine if everyone had vapor form for their #2. I think it’s quite likely people would dislike that a lot.

A couple notes based on other comments:

1. Vapor Form within range of a tower/keep portal does not necessarily guarantee entry. An ele can be immobilized while downed prior to popping Vapor Form to prevent movement. Granted, sometimes upon downing, an ele will instantly Vapor Form. In my own experience, it’s almost never intentional and usually a result of being in the process of casting a 2 skill at the same time as being downed. IIRC if it does not insta-cast in this manner, the ele must wait briefly before downed skills are usable.

2. The proper balance would not be to allowing stomping to bypass Vapor Form, as this would leave eles with no actual stomp interrupt, counterable or otherwise.

I’m not against a skill change, but am not completely unhappy with the current downed state of ele. The two changes I could see being fair:

1. Short CD to prevent Vapor Form from insta-casting.

2. Preventing entry to tower/keep portals while in Vapor Form. However, the same condition should be equally applied to Vengenced warriors.

The purpose of the skills in downstate are not only to prevent the stomp but also equally important to support your team members trying to rezz you. Therefore the overall effectiveness of the downstate of a class is dependent on their ability to prevent stomping AND helping your allies to rezz you. For this purpose every profession has 4 skills in downed state not only one.

For example the ele is very good in preventing the first stomp but awful in helping his allies to rezz him. The guardian is not as good as the ele in preventing the stomp (stabilty counter) but is much better supporting his allies to rezz him (cc with wave of light for a knockback or to force a dodge and healing with symbol of judgement. Rangers can even control their pet. So imho vaporform is an advantage against opponents with stabilty and invularabilty but a disadvantage against opponents without stability or invulnerability, rezzing the ele is not possible in vaporform and it has no cc to give your team member(s) the important seconds to rezz you timely before the stomp.

The argument that vapor form has no counter: If a skill has a counter or not is not solely its measure of powerfulness (but of course important). For example the ele trait smoothing mist. It’s regeneration that can not be stripped, but is it really so powerful? Or the teleporting skill, blink, it allows movement which can not be countered. Is it really too powerful? Or warrior banners, or the uninterruptable healing skill withdraw, etc. (An example for a skill with no real counter which changed from too weak to too powerful even so its functionality didn’t change is healing signet).

Tldr
You have to look at all downstate-skills of a profession (and even beyond that; for example applying stealth before going down, pets, self-rezz etc) to evaluate its effectiveness to help your team members to rezz you and prevent a stomp. So imho altogether the eles downstate abilites aren’t more effective than other professions downstate abililities. The developers could change vaporform to a teleport and change the third skill to something which supports the eles team members and have a closer look at the other stuff like ranger pets in downstate, stealth before downstate etc., but imo it’s not necessary.