Plenty of professions already have counters to their downstate 2 ability. The only one that doesn’t have a counter is Elementalist. Rangers can use reveal on mesmer. Guardians, elementalist, mesmer, thieves can teleport stomp thief’s down state 2 ability. Every other profession needs a blind, stability, invulnerability or others.
Then, elementalist’s counter will be immobilize and aoe teleports like blink and lightning flash.
Otherwise, an alternative to achieve balance is that all down state 2 ability should bypass invulnerability, stealth, stability, blind stomps.
If anything, Mist form should not be allowed to enter doors in towers and keeps like all the other down states. No other #2 can enter them. Or just make it so all the other #2s can enter a keep/tower with it.
However just trying to escape using the downed #2 with an elementalist? Outside of entering a door in a tower/keep in WvW, there’s no way for them to get away from you when downed. If anything it just lets them TRY to escape to near a group of allies.
Let me get this straight; you want to nerf the only thing eles do in any PvP enviroment?!
Whats next, reducing their health pool to minimun, give them light armor, nerf their healing in every patch and make all their skills have 40+ secs CD with highly telegraphed and long casting animations?!
Let me get this straight; you want to nerf the only thing eles do in any PvP enviroment?!
Whats next, reducing their health pool to minimun, give them light armor, nerf their healing in every patch and make all their skills have 40+ secs CD with highly telegraphed and long casting animations?!
…oh, wait….
This is hardly different than a thief teleporting in most scenarios. You wait until the last possible moment and move and A stomp is wasted. There’s prescedent from that aspect.
Not sure why you don’t like it.
This is hardly different than a thief teleporting in most scenarios. You wait until the last possible moment and move and A stomp is wasted. There’s prescedent from that aspect.
Not sure why you don’t like it.
Because if you’re fast enough you can still teleport to where the thief went (steal to them works).
This is a small slice of a much larger issue though. There are several tiers of downedstates. Ele > Thief/mes > Guard/ranger > War/Necro/Eng. They go from 100% can not be stomped on the first attempt regardless of numbers down to… can be countered with blind, block, stability, two stompers, person/pet/tiny rock in the way… it’s clearly far from balanced.
Elementalists is the only profession that is near impossible to stomp on first try. Only way to do it is to start the stomp animation right before they use vapor form (which is near impossible in itself if the ele is even half decent), then teleport to them at the end of their movement.
Another messed up thing about vapor form is that it allows them to interact with any objects, loot, and even go through portals.
Eles have to have a strong downed state because that’s where they spend a great deal of their time.
If you apply an immobilize before they hit mist form, they’ll go nowhere and be a free target.
This is hardly different than a thief teleporting in most scenarios. You wait until the last possible moment and move and A stomp is wasted. There’s prescedent from that aspect.
Not sure why you don’t like it.
Because if you’re fast enough you can still teleport to where the thief went (steal to them works).
This is a small slice of a much larger issue though. There are several tiers of downedstates. Ele > Thief/mes > Guard/ranger > War/Necro/Eng. They go from 100% can not be stomped on the first attempt regardless of numbers down to… can be countered with blind, block, stability, two stompers, person/pet/tiny rock in the way… it’s clearly far from balanced.
When I play thief I wait until people can’t react quickly enough to teleport, even if you try to anticipate it you can’t get the stomp off, maybe it’s server lag.
To stomp an ele on the first go you have to be a stealth class so they never see it coming.
You can’t measure the downstate on defense alone. The ele has one of the weakest offensive downstates. Measure the down state in it’s entirity.
Why not? I mean, logically speaking. They’re invulnerable, why should you be able to stomp someone in that state?
This is hardly different than a thief teleporting in most scenarios. You wait until the last possible moment and move and A stomp is wasted. There’s prescedent from that aspect.
Not sure why you don’t like it.
Because if you’re fast enough you can still teleport to where the thief went (steal to them works).
This is a small slice of a much larger issue though. There are several tiers of downedstates. Ele > Thief/mes > Guard/ranger > War/Necro/Eng. They go from 100% can not be stomped on the first attempt regardless of numbers down to… can be countered with blind, block, stability, two stompers, person/pet/tiny rock in the way… it’s clearly far from balanced.
When I play thief I wait until people can’t react quickly enough to teleport, even if you try to anticipate it you can’t get the stomp off, maybe it’s server lag.
To stomp an ele on the first go you have to be a stealth class so they never see it coming.
You can’t measure the downstate on defense alone. The ele has one of the weakest offensive downstates. Measure the down state in it’s entirity.
Or they could have already used steal or not be fast enough. It could be several things but there is a solid counter to it.
Being a stealth class won’t help unless they never see you at all ever and don’t feel the need to use mist form. I wouldn’t call that a solid counter.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Discharge_Lightning
195+ 10svuln 1/2s cast time isn’t too bad.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grasping_Earth
x5 755 damage + immobilize + 10s bleed again not too bad
Do you really find these skills so subpar to where it warrants ele having the only 100% get out of stomp free card?
Is Eng’s http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Junk so powerful that http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grappling_Line and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Booby_Trap (if you ever get to it) both being so easily countered seems balanced?
If so I disagree…
Even the dev’s at the time said that ele had the strongest downed state when they made the 2<→3 swap change.
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
VAPOR form…..
VAPOR form…..
Lol, you should forgive non-ele players for the incorrect skill name since it does have the same basic effect :P
Really, vapour form is overpowered now?
Why not just change the ability bar for elementalists so that when they see an opponent they instantly change into a lootbag which the the opponent can pick up.
Would that make it easier for you?
Of all the classes to complain about you’re picking an ele? Next you’ll be complaining about how op ranger pets are.
Really, vapour form is overpowered now?
Why not just change the ability bar for elementalists so that when they see an opponent they instantly change into a lootbag which the the opponent can pick up.
Would that make it easier for you?
Of all the classes to complain about you’re picking an ele? Next you’ll be complaining about how op ranger pets are.
I agree the non-downed state could use some love. That doesn’t stop ele from having the strongest downed state and doesn’t mean that the downed state balance overall isn’t totally messed up. It’s not like these things are mutually exclusive.
Once a sage told…
The profession that is supposed to be downed most should get the best downed skills.
But really i would love to change it with thief downed state …the only one that can avoid 2 stomps and still have awesome 1…..
Vapour form just move the ele once for 3 seconds and you can immobilize ele as its downed to prevent it moving.
Its not that good…while 1-3 are horrible.
I agree the non-downed state could use some love. That doesn’t stop ele from having the strongest downed state and doesn’t mean that the downed state balance overall isn’t totally messed up. It’s not like these things are mutually exclusive.
Is it really that strong?
Sure, #2 is fun, especially in WvW.
But #1 is really really weak compared to other classes, and #3 is quite the letdown unless you can use it to prevent someone else getting stomped.
Balances out.
I think more ele nerfs, especially if its not to the instant-burst that can be achieved, should be a long-time coming.
However, there was one ele in the vVv tourney (in the finals no less), so its probably best to nerf them quickly so that nobody gets any ideas…
I agree the non-downed state could use some love. That doesn’t stop ele from having the strongest downed state and doesn’t mean that the downed state balance overall isn’t totally messed up. It’s not like these things are mutually exclusive.
Is it really that strong?
Sure, #2 is fun, especially in WvW.
But #1 is really really weak compared to other classes, and #3 is quite the letdown unless you can use it to prevent someone else getting stomped.Balances out.
Yes it really is. The #2 skill is the most important (in a pvp enviornment). It’s your chance to save yourself. If that fails it’s gg right there. Take a look at eng (again) for example. I would put the auto on par with ele ‘s 1. The #3 isn’t that bad… but how often do you get to use it? Not very often because the #2 is so easily countered (same goes for war). Will necro’s #1 save him from being stomped? No. His #2 is almost as bad as eng/war and his #3 is rubbish as well. Does guards #1 save him? No… his #2 might but there are still a number of counters for it. Now look at ele again…
I think more ele nerfs, especially if its not to the instant-burst that can be achieved, should be a long-time coming.
However, there was one ele in the vVv tourney (in the finals no less), so its probably best to nerf them quickly so that nobody gets any ideas…
I would be fine if the lower ones were brought up as well… but they are currently very imbalanced. That’s not to say there aren’t other balance issues that need to be addressed as well, but this one in particular has been around for quite some time and I find it sad they haven’t many any attempts to balance the downed states other than the 2/3 swap on ele.
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
They can do this in exchange for giving eles 5k more base health.
They can do this in exchange for giving eles 5k more base health.
Tbh… I don’t think that would fix ele’s problems… personally I would rather them do thinks like fix RTL to not go on 40s cd because of a block etc…
I’m not some ele hater, don’t get me wrong… I’m not crying nerf ele. I have an ele and I play her every day, and ele does need some love. But the downed states overall just need balancing.
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
They can do this in exchange for giving eles 5k more base health.
Tbh… I don’t think that would fix ele’s problems…
Neither do I. Arcana and attunements are just so badly done, and most of the traits suck. There is also the 40 year long cooldowns, even for the utility skills (which should be equal to other classes, but are not).
They can do this in exchange for giving eles 5k more base health.
Tbh… I don’t think that would fix ele’s problems…
Neither do I. Arcana and attunements are just so badly done, and most of the traits suck. There is also the 40 year long cooldowns, even for the utility skills (which should be equal to other classes, but are not).
I would probably agree with you on a lot of that. I don’t agree that vapor form and the downed states in general are balanced though : /
I enter WWW and…
I see war/guards trains everwhere.
Or i get whot by party of thieves roaming that never dies…..
Or i see necro Killing sieges…
But obviously WWW issue is vapour form…….that is situationally low impacting the game..
I agree LB, when I get chain stunned/knocked down by a class who I can’t even seem to dent, or when I get cloak and dagger+backstab combod for 3/4 of my life the first thing that comes to mind is ‘That kitten ed vapour form, it’s really breaking this game.’
All jokes aside, if you’re complaining about an ability which is only usable once your opponent is dead, meaning you have already killed him, then it’s fair to say your class is the better one and stop complaining.
Putting it bluntly
There’s another problem I have with the “Vapour form whining”:
What’s the actual reason it needs to change?
That is to say, yes, Elementalists can ~freely harass you around a keep/tower gate.
So?
Engineers can build a Mortar and Necromancers can turn into a poison mist. You don’t exactly see much complaints about those unique skills, do you? But Vapour Form needs to change?
What’s wrong with Elementalists being “the best” at defensive harassment? I mean, in what way is it a specialization worth killing off?
There’s another problem I have with the “Vapour form whining”:
What’s the actual reason it needs to change?That is to say, yes, Elementalists can ~freely harass you around a keep/tower gate.
So?
Engineers can build a Mortar and Necromancers can turn into a poison mist. You don’t exactly see much complaints about those unique skills, do you? But Vapour Form needs to change?
What’s wrong with Elementalists being “the best” at defensive harassment? I mean, in what way is it a specialization worth killing off?
The So? =‘s it does not yield skilled gameplay. It’s poorly designed that an ele can vapor form into a tower/keep. What I’ve done in the past is get a few eles together, bum rush rams, then vapor form back into the keep (since the portal is right next to the gate) and repeat until the rams are down.
You did not seriously just try say imply positive about eng’s mortar or compare an elite skill to vapor form did you? There are several racials better than mortar. That’s why no one complains about it. Also… apples and oranges much?
It’s a problem when one class gets a 100% no stomp while others get a single target projectile to stop that crucial first stomp attempt. If the other classes were on par with mes/thief… ok fine. That’s not the case though. That’s the reason that something needs to change. Either the bad ones need to be brought up or the top ones need to be brought down.
As far as the OP… idk you would need to ask him his reasons.
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
Rather than nerfing the good downstate – why not buff the rubbish ones?
The only thing strong about Ele downstate is the fact they can Vapor through doors, which i see no problem with, its happened to me loads of times. Considering they are the only class with Low Health and Low Armor they SHOULD have something and i think Vapor is that something.
Rather than nerfing the good downstate – why not buff the rubbish ones?
The only thing strong about Ele downstate is the fact they can Vapor through doors, which i see no problem with, its happened to me loads of times. Considering they are the only class with Low Health and Low Armor they SHOULD have something and i think Vapor is that something.
I agree the lower ones should be brought up, but that’s not to say that some of the higher ones still shouldn’t be brought down as well. It would very much depend on how they did it.
Nah, ele needs other things to be able to deal with having low hp/armor. Vapor form is not the answer to that. It shouldn’t matter that it has the lowest hp/armor since it should be balanced around that when the ele isn’t downed. No extras when downed should be needed. If vapor form is what’s keeping them from fixing my ele when she’s not downed… then holy kitten please change it right now.
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
It’s a problem when one class gets a 100% no stomp while others get a single target projectile to stop that crucial first stomp attempt.
This “imbalance” affects a tiny detail of the class. Also keep in mind that in PvE, about everything is better than vapour form.
But really thing is: why does it need to be balanced. Escaping into the tower I could see as an issue because as you say it gets problematic when a large amount of elementalists get organized. But beyond that, why would I want to reduce class uniqueness?
It’s WvW! Both sides have access to this. In the big picture, in equal numbers. So long as whatever each class uniquely brings to the table is very strong in itself, each class has things they’re known for. And that’s what makes a class a class, strengths and weaknesses.
If you couldn’t tell, I don’t subscribe to the idea that RPGs ought to be balanced, especially for any smaller scale PvP. Goes against the very underlying premise of classes as a form of specialization, IMO.
I want things to be overpowered. Ideally, everything should be overpowered in it’s own little niche. I’d rather have solid class design and “feel” than balanced 1v1, especially as that can’t be achieved anyhow. Seems a bit futile to chase it.
Ofc, fleeing into the tower can be problematic, granted. Prevent the use of doors maybe. So if I can flee into or behind a friendly zerg I’m good, but I can’t easily flee back into a tower.
Nah I like the way it is. Gives eles a nice escape when they are pulled from a tower or keep.
It’s a problem when one class gets a 100% no stomp while others get a single target projectile to stop that crucial first stomp attempt.
This “imbalance” affects a tiny detail of the class. Also keep in mind that in PvE, about everything is better than vapour form.
But really thing is: why does it need to be balanced. Escaping into the tower I could see as an issue because as you say it gets problematic when a large amount of elementalists get organized. But beyond that, why would I want to reduce class uniqueness?
It’s WvW! Both sides have access to this. In the big picture, in equal numbers. So long as whatever each class uniquely brings to the table is very strong in itself, each class has things they’re known for. And that’s what makes a class a class, strengths and weaknesses.
If you couldn’t tell, I don’t subscribe to the idea that RPGs ought to be balanced, especially for any smaller scale PvP. Goes against the very underlying premise of classes as a form of specialization, IMO.
I want things to be overpowered. Ideally, everything should be overpowered in it’s own little niche. I’d rather have solid class design and “feel” than balanced 1v1, especially as that can’t be achieved anyhow. Seems a bit futile to chase it.Ofc, fleeing into the tower can be problematic, granted. Prevent the use of doors maybe. So if I can flee into or behind a friendly zerg I’m good, but I can’t easily flee back into a tower.
PvE/WvW/sPvP should be balanced separately. 3 very different environments. You don’t get stomped in PvE for example (lol). There have been many nerfs that have harmed classes in PvE that did not need a nerf because of PvP reasons. That’s not good.
That’s still not mutually exclusive to have classes be very strong in their own way, but overall still balanced.
I’ve played games where one class could juggle another class from 100%-0% while other classes could freeze them in place, knock them down and keep them down, another class could take the hits that these other classes would use to 100-0 them and knock them around instead… and it was pretty well balanced overall.
I don’t want every single class to have the exact same downed state. Them being overall balanced when down though… yes. I can’t see a reason why one class can avoid a stomp 100% while another is so very easily countered because it’s a single target projectile. I don’t see the overall balance in that.
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
We can have this discussion after ANet prevents stomping from stealth…
Because not all #2 are exclusively about preventing a stomp. If that were the sole reason they exist they’d simply do that. “Prevent a stomp”. Occam’s razor, there’s no reason to design it any further.
But some cause damage, some allow you to move, some stealth you, some pull targets away from other targets, some stun, etc. Those all do things. As in, they can do things apart from preventing a stomp.
I mean if we were to update all #2 to always prevent a stomp, then the ones which have side effects of indirect impact would automatically be overpowered. So would we remove those? Like Engineers or Rangers preventing stomps on someone else, something Mesmers cannot do?
And so on. I really feel that the focus on preventing a stomp is wrong, rather I’d improve the power of the #2 moves so each feels really strong at what it does. The Engineer #2 for example I’d replace with a harpoon gun firing the line, 1500 range, cannot be blocked or prevented. The ability to pull a very distant enemy close to my group (which pretty much guarantees the rally) seems quite interesting.
ITT; boohoo i missed a lootbag ;__;
Really, vapour form is overpowered now?
Why not just change the ability bar for elementalists so that when they see an opponent they instantly change into a lootbag which the the opponent can pick up.
Would that make it easier for you?
Of all the classes to complain about you’re picking an ele? Next you’ll be complaining about how op ranger pets are.
It is overpowered because there is no counter. Every other profession has a counter for a smooth stomp, elementalist do not have a counter. Like the top post said, Mesmer needs to be revealed, thieves needs to be teleported to, every other profession needs to have stability, blind, invulnerability to be stomped. Because that they have a counter, should those 7 other profession have a ability bar to instantly change into a lootbag which the opponent can pick up?
Let me get this straight; you want to nerf the only thing eles do in any PvP enviroment?!
Whats next, reducing their health pool to minimun, give them light armor, nerf their healing in every patch and make all their skills have 40+ secs CD with highly telegraphed and long casting animations?!
I actually kind think the number 2 should be changed. Btw eles are stronger than you think try playing chubbz’s staff ele build its pretty kitten good. Once all the bs that is present atm is nerfed trust me eles will be really overpowered.
They can do this in exchange for giving eles 5k more base health.
Tbh… I don’t think that would fix ele’s problems… personally I would rather them do thinks like fix RTL to not go on 40s cd because of a block etc…
I’m not some ele hater, don’t get me wrong… I’m not crying nerf ele. I have an ele and I play her every day, and ele does need some love. But the downed states overall just need balancing.
Because the only weapons elementalist use is x/d. 5k hp will help not only x/d, it will help the whole class.
In any case, I would rather have slightly more hp, but more active defense.
But really thing is: why does it need to be balanced. Escaping into the tower I could see as an issue because as you say it gets problematic when a large amount of elementalists get organized. But beyond that, why would I want to reduce class uniqueness?
Because stomping is annoying and clunky, what is more annoying is to be forced to stomp twice. The only saving grace is that there is a way to secure the stomp for every profession other than elementalist. I rather elementalist be rebalanced and have a way to be stomped in vapor form than an unstompable vapor form.
But really thing is: why does it need to be balanced. Escaping into the tower I could see as an issue because as you say it gets problematic when a large amount of elementalists get organized. But beyond that, why would I want to reduce class uniqueness?
Because stomping is annoying and clunky, what is more annoying is to be forced to stomp twice. The only saving grace is that there is a way to secure the stomp for every profession other than elementalist. I rather elementalist be rebalanced and have a way to be stomped in vapor form than an unstompable vapor form.
Just remove the stomp mechanic — it’s not useful anyway.
But really thing is: why does it need to be balanced. Escaping into the tower I could see as an issue because as you say it gets problematic when a large amount of elementalists get organized. But beyond that, why would I want to reduce class uniqueness?
Because stomping is annoying and clunky, what is more annoying is to be forced to stomp twice. The only saving grace is that there is a way to secure the stomp for every profession other than elementalist. I rather elementalist be rebalanced and have a way to be stomped in vapor form than an unstompable vapor form.
Just remove the stomp mechanic — it’s not useful anyway.
Or don’t remove it because it makes things more interesting.
I just want to point out, a GOOD thief will prevent the first stomp 95% of the time by timing his port correctly. If that happens, he will also prevent the 2nd stomp 100% of the time.
Your problem is that you are bothering trying to stomp the squish that is eles/thieves, when a simple cleave destroys both.
But really thing is: why does it need to be balanced. Escaping into the tower I could see as an issue because as you say it gets problematic when a large amount of elementalists get organized. But beyond that, why would I want to reduce class uniqueness?
Because stomping is annoying and clunky, what is more annoying is to be forced to stomp twice. The only saving grace is that there is a way to secure the stomp for every profession other than elementalist. I rather elementalist be rebalanced and have a way to be stomped in vapor form than an unstompable vapor form.
Just remove the stomp mechanic — it’s not useful anyway.
I like the stomp mechanic. In team fights, when someone goes down, it becomes a battle over that downed player. Who would claim victory: The ressers or the stomper? When it gets to 1v1 or your party ganks a lone player out of nowhere, down states become annoying. Skills that prevent stomp-interrupting makes up for clunkiness of stomping itself. Elementalist is the only profession that can prevent stomping from reaching them. This needs to be fixed. Worth mentioning, the gem shop finishers are so well designed that I would not give these up to remove down state.
I just want to point out, a GOOD thief will prevent the first stomp 95% of the time by timing his port correctly. If that happens, he will also prevent the 2nd stomp 100% of the time.
Your problem is that you are bothering trying to stomp the squish that is eles/thieves, when a simple cleave destroys both.
Thieves can be stomped through teleports. Steal, and Judge intervention does the job fine.
A simple cleave destroys all profession equally, so it doesn’t matter anyways.
Or don’t care because 90%+ of the time you get killed by damage, anyhow. Same time used, safer, can be done from range.
Eh, OP has a point – it’s possible to counter every stomp avoidance mechanic besides the elementalist’s – it really should be fixed…at some point.
Ele currently has too many problems to set aside time to specifically nerf them, even if the nerf is deserved (This is conjecture, I’m not stating that as fact). Once elementalist is in a more well built, viable place, this can be addressed (though I’m unsure how it would be addressed tbh).
I see thief as the best down state. You can always time it to never be stomped on the first go and you usually can block a second stomp too, all while AoE crippling. Ele down state is one of the mid range down states bcs of its low offensive potential.
i don’t want ele nerfs but on the other hand ele is only class that literary can’t be stomped unless you wait forever
it is not a problem in 1v1 envioment, in tpvp it is huge problem however…. you down ele, he goes mist form, gets rez, you kill him again, same story etc etc. you also can’t really let him be as he will just kill your entire team with massive aoe… i had matches where we had to kill ele 5 times before he finally went down thanks to all the team rezzes and guard rez trait… it just takes too long, too many sacrifices and usually would cost you a game
i do believe some counter is needed; every down state has one but ele’s
I think the only change should be that while in vapor/mist form eles shouldnt be able to go through portals specially in wvw…
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