Guild Wars 2

zaxon.6819:

so .. there is a fix. give the leap clone the same hp as a flesh wurm. problem solved.

And same damage. And then there would be QQ about how mehmer is so op again.

Sergoros.4398:

zaxon.6819:

so .. there is a fix. give the leap clone the same hp as a flesh wurm. problem solved.

And same damage. And then there would be QQ about how mehmer is so op again.

Give it a 40 second cooldown, and I’m fine with that change. I wonder how well your shatter burst combo would work if you could only do it every 40 seconds instead of every ~15.

Hamster.4861:

I am mad now. Now i need to go full perplexity condition. kitten YOU ALL.

te he he … lama face

Cogbyrn.7283:

Sergoros.4398:

zaxon.6819:

so .. there is a fix. give the leap clone the same hp as a flesh wurm. problem solved.

And same damage. And then there would be QQ about how mehmer is so op again.

Give it a 40 second cooldown, and I’m fine with that change. I wonder how well your shatter burst combo would work if you could only do it every 40 seconds instead of every ~15.

U mean, to have free phantom with decent damage and alot of health, on whom U can teleport anytime u want and etc etc? Thats….just….Amasing. It would make us so op. Unlike you necros, It would be weapon skill. We wont have to waste utility on it. I would happily give up our broken ileap for such boon.

Be careful with what you wish for.

Sergoros.4398:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Sergoros.4398:

zaxon.6819:

so .. there is a fix. give the leap clone the same hp as a flesh wurm. problem solved.

And same damage. And then there would be QQ about how mehmer is so op again.

Give it a 40 second cooldown, and I’m fine with that change. I wonder how well your shatter burst combo would work if you could only do it every 40 seconds instead of every ~15.

U mean, to have free range phantom with decent damage, on whom U can teleport anytime u want and etc etc? Thats….just….Amasing. It would make us so op. Unlike you necros, It would be weapon skill. We wont have to waste utility on it. I would happily give up our broken ileap for such boon.

Be careful with what you wish for.

You don’t know how Flesh Wurm works, so I’ll enlighten you. You would have a free range phant*asm* with more than trivial damage, but less than useful damage, that you could teleport to once. When you teleport to it, you immobilize foes in an area or whatever iLeap does, the phantom disappears, and it’s 40 seconds until you can cast it again.

Would you still like the opportunity to immobilize only once every 40 seconds, for a few hundred DPS from a phantasm that doesn’t scale with your stat choice and disappears after you swap places with it? That’s the swap you’re looking to make.

Or you can try to use iLeap in a way that doesn’t get it killed in the < 1 second it takes to travel to its target for the immob, every 12 seconds.

Your choice.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Sergoros.4398:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Sergoros.4398:

zaxon.6819:

so .. there is a fix. give the leap clone the same hp as a flesh wurm. problem solved.

And same damage. And then there would be QQ about how mehmer is so op again.

Give it a 40 second cooldown, and I’m fine with that change. I wonder how well your shatter burst combo would work if you could only do it every 40 seconds instead of every ~15.

U mean, to have free range phantom with decent damage, on whom U can teleport anytime u want and etc etc? Thats….just….Amasing. It would make us so op. Unlike you necros, It would be weapon skill. We wont have to waste utility on it. I would happily give up our broken ileap for such boon.

Be careful with what you wish for.

You don’t know how Flesh Wurm works, so I’ll enlighten you. You would have a free range phant*asm* with more than trivial damage, but less than useful damage, that you could teleport to once. When you teleport to it, you immobilize foes in an area or whatever iLeap does, the phantom disappears, and it’s 40 seconds until you can cast it again.

Would you still like the opportunity to immobilize only once every 40 seconds, for a few hundred DPS from a phantasm that doesn’t scale with your stat choice and disappears after you swap places with it? That’s the swap you’re looking to make.

Or you can try to use iLeap in a way that doesn’t get it killed in the < 1 second it takes to travel to its target for the immob, every 12 seconds.

Your choice.

I know how it works. With this, I would be able to summon 3 phantoms from the start. Like, N3> N5> swap> N5. Now enemy is pushed by 3 phantoms and I can even swap with one of them. Sweet.

Also, with so many hp as wurm has….enemy would have to make alot more, than just 2 hits to kill it. Or let him live and suffer even more.

They fixed a bug. Nothing more.

The skill says you SWAP places with your clone. How can you swap with the clone if the clone was already dead? Doesn´t make sense at all.

Now the funny part: If people still want to swap with the clone after being destroied, they can make another description to the skill.
“SWAP places with your clone, if your clone was already dead, you bring him back to life and you are downed.”

silentnight warrior.2714:

They fixed a bug. Nothing more.

The skill says you SWAP places with your clone. How can you swap with the clone if the clone was already dead? Doesn´t make sense at all.

Now the funny part: If people still want to swap with the clone after being destroied, they can make another description to the skill.
“SWAP places with your clone, if your clone was already dead, you bring him back to life and you are downed.”

Why did they bother addressing this bug without fixing the clone’s pathfinding? This was a half-a**ed job for a situational skill that still doesn’t work properly.

silentnight warrior.2714:

They fixed a bug. Nothing more.

The skill says you SWAP places with your clone. How can you swap with the clone if the clone was already dead? Doesn´t make sense at all.

Skill description also says the clone “leaps” to the target. It doesn’t really leap much, does it?
Swap stays on your skillbar for the full duration (~5 seconds) even if the clone dies immediately. How is that at all accurate or intuitive?
Swap says “Swap locations with your clone. Immobilize nearby foes.” Two separate sentences. Once could easily read that to mean two separate effects and expect to still get the second even if you don’t get the first for some reason. So, is it actually working as intended right now? Total judgement call.
IIRC Swap is still a stunbreak even though that’s not documented at all.

Basically what I’m getting at is that tooltips lie to you. Constantly. It’s part of playing a mesmer (other classes, too, but especially a mesmer).

But the solution isn’t to make skills match the tooltips, for the most part. Because the description in the tooltips is just some untested theorycraft stuff, basically. So all you’re getting is “Changed class to play more like whatever early beta design document assumed it should be like.” We’re way past that at this point. It’s much better to look at how skills behave “in the wild” and adjust their descriptions for accuracy and their mechanics for balance.

comparing the skill to flesh wurm was stoopid from the start.. thats why i went along with it. the skill was not broken or op before this change.. the only reason to change it was to nerf mesmers. the move was in the game from the creation of guildwars 2 and made it through every patch with not 1 person giving a crap. this is a mesmer nerf.. talk all you want with pseudo reasons why its ok or not ok.

Taking individual skills out of context and comparing with other classes is completely ridiculous anyway.

Spawning the clone in the first place is sometimes hit and miss and requires close range. For the clone to actually leap to the target is very hit and miss. For the clone to survive for any length of time is unlikely. To make use of the situational stun break (nevermind positioning) and blink is a reward for a making use of an already bugged skill.

Anton.1769:

Sergoros.4398:

Tooltips….yeah….Lets read a few…
Warrior sword N2 “Lunge at your foe and strike them…..bla…bla…” – But this skills can be used without target to run from enemy. Clearly bug. Need fix.
Greatsword N3 “Whirl in a target’s direction….bla…bla” Wow. Can be used without target too. Must…fix….!!!!!

Thief heartseeker… It may go on. Most of the skills in game shouldn’t be able to be used without a target! Cause they all have “shoot at foe, strike foe” and etc in the tooltip!

I bet I can find alot of skills like that. Should clearly fix it. If u used a skill without a target, hero should fall into deep coma and start thinking about becoming a tp trader.

But devs play warriors and thieves…And when their bosses ask reports of bugfixing
they nerf only useless mesmers

Only one confirmed dev plays a thief and he is on the mesmer forums way more.

Just wanted to correct you there.

The point was that you cannot use secondary abilities for summoned AI anywhere else in the game when the summoned AI is no longer alive. The closest analogy is a Necro minion. When the minion dies, you lose the secondary. When the clone dies, you now lose the secondary.

It isn’t really that far out of context. If it was intended to work such that you could swap positions with something that doesn’t exist, why can’t I use minion abilities when the minion no longer exists? Probably because it actually wasn’t intended, and it just made it up into the list of fixes for this release for whatever reason.

If you truly think this is a cataclysmic nerf designed to ruin Mesmers around the world forever, please explain the circumstances in which this was useful that you will no longer be able to use it in. Identify any other AoEs/players and what they are doing, the purpose you used it for, and what exactly it enabled (you could still get off the immobilize into the shatter combo even if they killed the clone, or you escaped some damage spike, etc.).

If you can’t do the above, then it’s probably no big deal, and being able to use an ability that interacts with something that no longer exists was a bug that is now fixed.

And as others have mentioned, it isn’t the only ability in the game that is bugged in a similar manner. More often than I’d like, Focus #4 on Necro is “Obstructed” for absolutely no reason at all. It’s another ground-skimmer, it’s slow, it’s easy to dodge unless the enemy is locked down by moving just a little bit, and I deal with it because at this point, I don’t think fixing it would be worth their time, even though I use it very frequently.

If they revert this because of people complaining about a 100% totally reasonable FIX, let me teleport to my necromancer Flesh Wurm after it’s been destroyed as well – it’s only fair.

Not feeling any sympathy at all. Mesmers should be happy that they let them keep their weapon bound stunbreak when Thieves lost their’s.

ehh. thieves got nerfed in the patch also. so you are eating the same crap we are. or i guess thieves got bug fixed. gg

i leap will not work vs anyone who random aoes an area. ele. engi hambow. necro guardian.. pretty much every profession that just does random stuff and dosent bother targeting.

in almost all situations in the patch Anet fixed tooltips because they didnt match the tool.. For mesmer they changed the tool because it didnt match the tooltip. Somehow this leads people to think its a bug fix when it could have been a tooltip fix. It was chosen as a nerf instead of a tooltip fix because they felt the skill needed a nerf.. They have showed that they have the ability to change tooltips because they do not match. They have shown in most sitations that tooltips are not the be all end all on how a skill behaves.

Mesmer complaining about sword nerfs?

Mesmer complaining about being underpowered in most areas of the game?

Sounds like personal problems.

Signed, thief.

zaxon.6819:

in almost all situations in the patch Anet fixed tooltips because they didnt match the tool.. For mesmer they changed the tool because it didnt match the tooltip. Somehow this leads people to think its a bug fix when it could have been a tooltip fix. It was chosen as a nerf instead of a tooltip fix because they felt the skill needed a nerf.. They have showed that they have the ability to change tooltips because they do not match. They have shown in most sitations that tooltips are not the be all end all on how a skill behaves.

Please try to write the tooltip to match the functionality. I’ll start:

“Swap locations with your clone. If your clone is dead, instantly teleport to the last location where the clone was alive. Immobilize nearby foes.”

Sounds legit. Except the part where instant teleports on a weapon cooldown that’s pretty low that can escape while stunned aren’t something ANet has historically liked.

I’m honestly still very skeptical you were somehow exploiting this to incredible effect. You maybe utilized this bug every once in a while. It really just sounds like you want to be mad.

NinjaEd.3946:

Mesmer complaining about sword nerfs?

Mesmer complaining about being underpowered in most areas of the game?

Sounds like personal problems.

Signed, thief.

Yes, because thieves are very underpowered in most areas of the game. You only have some of the best ingame damage output for PvE, are more or less required on every competitive tPvP team, and are known as one of the best classes for WvW roaming. The only thing thieves aren’t strong at is WvW group fights.

no. i am just a person who dosent swap the second i leap bcause as soon as someone sees you use the ability they dodge. its a very telegraphed move. so i wait until they dodge to swap.

Cogbyrn.7283:

The point was that you cannot use secondary abilities for summoned AI anywhere else in the game when the summoned AI is no longer alive. The closest analogy is a Necro minion. When the minion dies, you lose the secondary. When the clone dies, you now lose the secondary.

It isn’t really that far out of context. If it was intended to work such that you could swap positions with something that doesn’t exist, why can’t I use minion abilities when the minion no longer exists? Probably because it actually wasn’t intended, and it just made it up into the list of fixes for this release for whatever reason.
.

Wow. So clever. Now lets think about all other class leaps. Wow. They can be used without a target as escape mechanic! But tooltip clearly says, that u should leap at your targer! This sure is a bug, that needs fixing. Since Ileap can leap only on target, same should be done with other classes leaps and skills. Thats only reasonable, following your logic. Since my skill works like this, other skills should work like this too! Also all skills should Obey tooltips. Because yolo.

Sergoros.4398:

Cogbyrn.7283:

The point was that you cannot use secondary abilities for summoned AI anywhere else in the game when the summoned AI is no longer alive. The closest analogy is a Necro minion. When the minion dies, you lose the secondary. When the clone dies, you now lose the secondary.

It isn’t really that far out of context. If it was intended to work such that you could swap positions with something that doesn’t exist, why can’t I use minion abilities when the minion no longer exists? Probably because it actually wasn’t intended, and it just made it up into the list of fixes for this release for whatever reason.
.

Wow. So clever. Now lets think about all other class leaps. Wow. They can be used without a target as escape mechanic! But tooltip clearly says, that u should leap at your targer! This sure is a bug, that needs fixing. Since Ileap can leap only on target, same should be done with other classes leaps and skills. Thats only reasonable, following your logic. Since my skill works like this, other skills should work like this too! Also all skills should Obey tooltips. Because yolo.

Find the word “tooltip” in my post. You can’t, because it isn’t there.

Next time, read what someone says before defaulting to your standard argument. If you are having difficulty understanding the point I’m trying to make, ask for clarification.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Sergoros.4398:

Cogbyrn.7283:

The point was that you cannot use secondary abilities for summoned AI anywhere else in the game when the summoned AI is no longer alive. The closest analogy is a Necro minion. When the minion dies, you lose the secondary. When the clone dies, you now lose the secondary.

It isn’t really that far out of context. If it was intended to work such that you could swap positions with something that doesn’t exist, why can’t I use minion abilities when the minion no longer exists? Probably because it actually wasn’t intended, and it just made it up into the list of fixes for this release for whatever reason.
.

Wow. So clever. Now lets think about all other class leaps. Wow. They can be used without a target as escape mechanic! But tooltip clearly says, that u should leap at your targer! This sure is a bug, that needs fixing. Since Ileap can leap only on target, same should be done with other classes leaps and skills. Thats only reasonable, following your logic. Since my skill works like this, other skills should work like this too! Also all skills should Obey tooltips. Because yolo.

Find the word “tooltip” in my post. You can’t, because it isn’t there.

Next time, read what someone says before defaulting to your standard argument. If you are having difficulty understanding the point I’m trying to make, ask for clarification.

Now tell that to yourself. Because u totally skipped my point about similarity of skills! Since ileap work like this, all other skills should work like this. Your logic. Now….fix em all!!!! Make All skills in the game target only! Because our phantoms/clones work like that! Also, if u use your skill out of range, skill should do nothing and go on cd for no reason. Because all classes should have similar skill mechanic. Right? Right!

Fay.2357:

NinjaEd.3946:

Mesmer complaining about sword nerfs?

Mesmer complaining about being underpowered in most areas of the game?

Sounds like personal problems.

Signed, thief.

Yes, because thieves are very underpowered in most areas of the game. You only have some of the best ingame damage output for PvE, are more or less required on every competitive tPvP team, and are known as one of the best classes for WvW roaming. The only thing thieves aren’t strong at is WvW group fights.

1. PVE: Not liked in dungeons, aside from blind spam and skipping trash mobs. Most are just dead weight and can’t take a hit. (viable, just not preferred)

2. Pvp: not sure where you get this from. I watched the ToL, very few thieves. The few thieves that were there, had to run almost specific builds just to be acceptable. Not saying Mesmer was plentiful in there, but don’t pretend thief was popular.

3. WVW: ahh yes roaming. I guess Mesmer’s don’t roam. That or I’m imagining it when I run into stealth squads who strangely have a Mesmer with them.

Best potential damage, which comes at a price of also being incredibly squishy. Can you believe that! :O

See above for “requirement” for pvp.

At least we can agree on that.

I’m not saying we are below or above Mesmer in regards to this recent nerf, just saying get used to it. We’ve been getting nerfed far after justification, and then they nerfed those things again for the sake of nerfing. I’d be glad to show you a list of kitten we’ve dealt with but I’m hoping you get the picture at this point.

No intention of starting anger posts here. I’m only shocked at the response to this thread and all others like it(:

Hm…now, that i think about it….thiefs are nerfed because stealth is op. But mesmers get double nerfed! Because we not only have stealth….we also have portal! It explains everything!

Sergoros.4398:

Hm…now, that i think about it….thiefs are nerfed because stealth is op. But mesmers get double nerfed! Because we not only have stealth….we also have portal! It explains everything!

If that were true, then explain our sword nerfs.

NinjaEd.3946:

Sergoros.4398:

Hm…now, that i think about it….thiefs are nerfed because stealth is op. But mesmers get double nerfed! Because we not only have stealth….we also have portal! It explains everything!

If that were true, then explain our sword nerfs.

Because stealth is op ofc.

If it was a bug, they should have fixed the tooltip. They did it for all the other bugs

NinjaEd.3946:

Best potential damage, which comes at a price of also being incredibly squishy. Can you believe that! :O

Because that’s such a big problem if your enemies constantly lose their target, isn’kitten :P
Now ofc, I know Thieves are actually kinda meh in anything but 1v1, and 1v1 is a completely and utterly pointless way to fight and should really be a bannable offence, but it’s still meh just how much Thieves can break target lock due to the combo field.

Ofc, the issue is actually with the combo field. Most other classes can be just as stealth-spammy, they just can’t do it on their own, they need the field supplied from somewhere. Or supply the field and someone else has to spam blast finishers in it.

The previous functionality of iLeap is pure muscle memory for me. I still do it even though I know it no longer functions. For any Mesmer, it’s muscle memory. It’s a vital part of shatter builds. A part of control. It’s a part of the playstyle of the entire class. The skill just doesn’t function well enough without it.

etiolate.9185:

The previous functionality of iLeap is pure muscle memory for me. I still do it even though I know it no longer functions. For any Mesmer, it’s muscle memory. It’s a vital part of shatter builds. A part of control. It’s a part of the playstyle of the entire class. The skill just doesn’t function well enough without it.

I found the behaviour of the new Sw3 more consistent when I played yesterday and fought champs. I mean, previously it didn’t do what I wanted half of the time, and now there’s either no clone spawned or no clone to swap to most of the time. So, pressing the button and seeing nothing happen is definitely less of an RNG now.

Cogbyrn.7283:

So if I drop a Flesh Wurm, and it is killed, should I still be able to use the teleport+stun break to the point where it had died? If so, then I think Flesh Wurm has been bugged this whole time.

The wurm is a physical being, created by a necromancer from real objects. The clone is an illusion, a creation of mind visualised by a mesmer and controlled by a mesmer; as such, the mesmer knows exactly where the clone died. The main difference is in the lore, and it is a big one.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Cogbyrn.7283:

So if I drop a Flesh Wurm, and it is killed, should I still be able to use the teleport+stun break to the point where it had died? If so, then I think Flesh Wurm has been bugged this whole time.

The wurm is a physical being, created by a necromancer from real objects. The clone is an illusion, a creation of mind visualised by a mesmer and controlled by a mesmer; as such, the mesmer knows exactly where the clone died. The main difference is in the lore, and it is a big one.

Ok, I’ll bite for a second.

The point of the illusion of the leaping swords man is that it isn’t a real version of you that is in their face, and then suddenly it is you in their place. Does that sound right? It confounds the target because what wasn’t real now suddenly is, causing more confusion (not the condition).

So why, in this case, would the target be able to shatter the illusion, then watch the mesmer just teleport from one point to where an illusion once was? That no longer has anything to do with deception/confusion, and everything to do with the mesmer just teleporting to a location for… some reason.

And wouldn’t you think that the Necro would have some magical/mental tie to his minions in order to control them? Wouldn’t severing that tie leave a residual sense of what once was there but now isn’t? At least for a few seconds.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Cogbyrn.7283:

So if I drop a Flesh Wurm, and it is killed, should I still be able to use the teleport+stun break to the point where it had died? If so, then I think Flesh Wurm has been bugged this whole time.

The wurm is a physical being, created by a necromancer from real objects. The clone is an illusion, a creation of mind visualised by a mesmer and controlled by a mesmer; as such, the mesmer knows exactly where the clone died. The main difference is in the lore, and it is a big one.

Ok, I’ll bite for a second.

The point of the illusion of the leaping swords man is that it isn’t a real version of you that is in their face, and then suddenly it is you in their place. Does that sound right? It confounds the target because what wasn’t real now suddenly is, causing more confusion (not the condition).

So why, in this case, would the target be able to shatter the illusion, then watch the mesmer just teleport from one point to where an illusion once was? That no longer has anything to do with deception/confusion, and everything to do with the mesmer just teleporting to a location for… some reason.

And wouldn’t you think that the Necro would have some magical/mental tie to his minions in order to control them? Wouldn’t severing that tie leave a residual sense of what once was there but now isn’t? At least for a few seconds.

I don’t think the swap really “confounds” anyone unless they have a single digit IQ. If that’s the intended purpose, then it’s a terrible skill in the current form.

On the other hand, if the purpose is to allow the Mesmer to move around quickly then that makes a lot more sense. The recent change makes this mobility very unreliable.

Cogbyrn.7283:

So why, in this case, would the target be able to shatter the illusion, then watch the mesmer just teleport from one point to where an illusion once was? That no longer has anything to do with deception/confusion, and everything to do with the mesmer just teleporting to a location for… some reason.

Its easier, than what you though. Imho, its all a way to buck the mind of the enemy. If u swapped with a dead clone > both was clones and mesmer was in invis behind a dead clone. Easy lore explanation. In lore mesmer have no 3 clone limit.

@Clownmug: The “lore” aspect was brought up. This has nothing to do with game design/balance at this point. I’m sorry you were misled. I’m not actually one who thinks lore should get in the way of balance, but I also don’t think lore necessarily has to be sacrificed for balance. Either way, the lore angle was explored, so I explored it further.

@Sergoros: If Mesmers have no 3 clone limit in lore, then you’re instantly saying that the game design doesn’t follow the lore, and any lore discussion is instantly dismissed/ended. Also, saying that the “lore” reason for swapping locations with a dead clone is that the version of the mesmer that appears to teleport is actually a clone that disappears(?), and what appears in that location is the mesmer who was actually in stealth, is convoluted and, in my opinion, terrible.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, saying that the “lore” reason for swapping locations with a dead clone is that the version of the mesmer that appears to teleport is actually a clone that disappears(?), and what appears in that location is the mesmer who was actually in stealth, is convoluted and, in my opinion, terrible.

Why? Its a kitten illusionist. He can do whatever he wants with your mind. Mesmer doesnt even have teleports or stealth in lore. Its all just mind games. When he using portal on zerg > everyone just thought, that enemy zerg was there, Actually, it was always with mesmer near the portal exit. He never goes in stealth. He just makes u think, that u dont see him. And etc and etc. They can’t add full power mesmer in the game. It would have been to op. So we had to deal with this “kind of illusion” things.