Guild Wars 2

It’s the middle of 2014 why are people still complaining about thieves??

The class is far from OP and they hardly warrant the amount of QQ generated.

This post should be in that 75 page long thief qq thread btw

T raw.4658:

It’s the middle of 2014 why are people still complaining about thieves??

The class is far from OP and they hardly warrant the amount of QQ generated.

This post should be in that 75 page long thief qq thread btw

People love to cry and whine about thieves to take attention away from the OP’ness of their own class. Since thieves have been nerfed every single patch, even for stuff that no one ever cried about like shortbow range and dancing dagger, people are starting to have a tough time finding things to nerf. Consume Ectoplasm needs a nerf?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/suggestions/Nerf-the-theif-steal-skill-consume-ectoplasm/first#post1440115

Stolen Whirling Axe?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Thief-stolen-Whirling-Axe-is-OP/page/3#post3695265

How about P/P, our joke weaponset?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/p-p-thief-insane-burst/first#post3636798

I guess now, the whining has whittled down to our core mechanics like initiative and stealth. After all, what else is there left to nerf?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Introducing – “Exhaustion” mechanic

I don’t quite like it. I think it overcomplicates Initiative, which is already a system unique to thieves, by applying another set of rules on top of it.

Personally I don’t think that Initiative is fundamentally bad. In places it’s a bit odd, but it’s not fundamentally bad.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Introducing – “Exhaustion” mechanic
What do you guys think?

RIP PvE Thieves.

Seriously, do you have any idea how much this would COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY RUIN EVERYTHING? I’m not one to exaggerate, either. I would delete my character and re-roll to main Warrior in an instant because it would be made absolutely worthless.

Arenanet are obviously not willing to have serious splits between game modes, so you keep this PvP-centric change 50 million miles away from my game. Kthx.

Auesis.7301:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Introducing – “Exhaustion” mechanic
What do you guys think?

RIP PvE Thieves.

Seriously, do you have any idea how much this would COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY RUIN EVERYTHING? I’m not one to exaggerate, either. I would delete my character and re-roll to main Warrior in an instant because it would be made absolutely worthless.

Can you be more specific on how it would be “absolutely worthless”?

Keep in mind that this is just an idea that can later on be tweaked and balanced so the numbers can be ignored for now.

Arenanet are obviously not willing to have serious splits between game modes, so you keep this PvP-centric change 50 million miles away from my game. Kthx.

Too bad, Anet is getting lazy and do not want to balance two sets of skills based on the game mode.

I wholeheartedly agree except for a couple of points;

-It isn’t ineffective to spam skills, in fact, one of the main reasons why thieves are so successful is because they can spam all their skills, say you equip D/P and you fail the first shadow shot, the second will connect, or the third will, which pretty much renders any form of active defense on the other side, well, useless.

-Heartseeker needs rework, not in the damage per say (although it might neeed it a little bit) but it shouldnt have a queue and an instalock, it should be like D/D ele fire #3, where it just goes the way you are facing, that way it isnt a braindead-supereffective skill and might even offer some room for skill floor, something I would dare to say most thief players are completely unaware of.

-I agree on the chill and stealth part, but you forgot that they also got very strong skills which dont need any initiative and yet are spammable, those are the worse, like backstab which is literally the definition of spammable, you cant miss it, literally cant miss it, you spam it until it lands and it does no consume any initiative (and to top it off cna take up to 50-99% of a persons hp)

As for the person saying that thieves dont work in PvE, I dont know what your sources are, but in terms of raw, single target damage; thieves are up there. Also, they are very useful in TA, Arah, dredge, etc. Would you bring a 5 thieves group into a dungeon? no, that would be very stupid, just as stupid to bring 5 same classes for any other profession, but a thief per party can become very useful for taking out single targets even in crowded enviroments, like killing assassins in CoF p2

I don’t find initiative to be the problem, it was just implemented poorly. How fast it regenerates is the larger problem and has been since day one. This is hardly the first game to use an initiative style system and it works in other games just fine.

To build off the exhaustion table that the previous poster said, what if you simply make exhaustion stack due to the repeated use of a skill and that increases the initiative cost of that skill (or all skills) until exhaustion fades?

For example…

Heartseeker costs 3 iniative and puts exhaustian on the thief for 5 seconds. If he uses the skill again, Heartseeker would cost 4 iniative and stack exhaustion to 2 and reset the timer to 5 seconds. A 3rd time would cost 5 and push exhaustion to 3 and reset the timer to 5 seconds. etc etc. After 5 seconds, exhaustion would drop by 1… so if you had 3, it would go to 2 for 5 seconds, then 1 for 5 seconds, then 0.

Now this could be implemented on a per skill basis (if you use Heartseeker back to back, only heartseeker has its initiative cost increased and becomes exhausted) or you could penalize the class as a whole and if they use any skill back to back it stacks exhaustion and all initiative costs are increased by 1.

Something like this would only really impact those who spam heartseaker to perma stealth or things like FS or PW etc.

Fortus.6175:

I wholeheartedly agree except for a couple of points;

-It isn’t ineffective to spam skills, in fact, one of the main reasons why thieves are so successful is because they can spam all their skills…

This is what the Exhaustion will try to contain, that if the same skill is used within the timer, it will suffer a cooldown. This will give the person in defense enough time to muster a counter play.

-Heartseeker needs rework, not in the damage per say (although it might neeed it a little bit) but it shouldnt have a queue and an instalock, it should be like D/D ele fire #3…

Um, this is not a HS feature, “instalock” is part of the game feature called “Auto-targeting” that can be found in the game’s Options window.

-I agree on the chill and stealth part, but you forgot that they also got very strong skills which dont need any initiative and yet are spammable, those are the worse, like backstab…

That’s not really the definition of “spammable” in this context. When we say spammable, it’s something that can be used back to back — not something you can keep on pressing until it connects.

Atherakhia.4086:

To build off the exhaustion table that the previous poster said, what if you simply make exhaustion stack due to the repeated use of a skill and that increases the initiative cost of that skill (or all skills) until exhaustion fades?

This will pose a serious system problem since for each skill, the game has to keep track of the Exhaustion timer, the cost increment, and the cooldown on top of the player has to keep track of them also. It will be a major burden to play a Thief and that’s not the goal we’re trying to achieve.

What we’re aiming for is to find a solution, a middle ground, on how to limit the skill from being spammed and at the same time not a major burden to the players who plays Thief.

The Exhaustion suggestion is but a starting point.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Fortus.6175:

I wholeheartedly agree except for a couple of points;

-It isn’t ineffective to spam skills, in fact, one of the main reasons why thieves are so successful is because they can spam all their skills…

This is what the Exhaustion will try to contain, that if the same skill is used within the timer, it will suffer a cooldown. This will give the person in defense enough time to muster a counter play.

-Heartseeker needs rework, not in the damage per say (although it might neeed it a little bit) but it shouldnt have a queue and an instalock, it should be like D/D ele fire #3…

Um, this is not a HS feature, “instalock” is part of the game feature called “Auto-targeting” that can be found in the game’s Options window.

-I agree on the chill and stealth part, but you forgot that they also got very strong skills which dont need any initiative and yet are spammable, those are the worse, like backstab…

That’s not really the definition of “spammable” in this context. When we say spammable, it’s something that can be used back to back — not something you can keep on pressing until it connects.

Atherakhia.4086:

To build off the exhaustion table that the previous poster said, what if you simply make exhaustion stack due to the repeated use of a skill and that increases the initiative cost of that skill (or all skills) until exhaustion fades?

This will pose a serious system problem since for each skill, the game has to keep track of the Exhaustion timer, the cost increment, and the cooldown on top of the player has to keep track of them also. It will be a major burden to play a Thief and that’s not the goal we’re trying to achieve.

What we’re aiming for is to find a solution, a middle ground, on how to limit the skill from being spammed and at the same time not a major burden to the players who plays Thief.

The Exhaustion suggestion is but a starting point.

So you feel that losing initiative for all weapon skills between all weapon sets isn’t a punishing enough mechanic. Even though thieves can over the course of 60 seconds use half as many weapon skills as any other profession?

Shockwave.1230:

So you feel that losing initiative for all weapon skills between all weapon sets isn’t a punishing enough mechanic. Even though thieves can over the course of 60 seconds use half as many weapon skills as any other profession?

Good for you to bringing this up, I’m actually saving this for much later, but since you mentioned it, I might as well address it.

Let’s review a scenario. Using S/P as an example.

IS → PW → BP = total 15 initiatives (tapped out)

Another strength of having this Exhaustion is allowing Thieves to swap weapons, use the skills in that set for zero initiative but putting them in cooldown, then swap back to your main weapon set. Given that swapping has a 10s cooldown, you’ll have 10 initiatives ready to use by the time you swap back.

Being denied access to your off-set weapon skills because you have no initiatives left is not fun.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

So you feel that losing initiative for all weapon skills between all weapon sets isn’t a punishing enough mechanic. Even though thieves can over the course of 60 seconds use half as many weapon skills as any other profession?

Good for you to bringing this up, I’m actually saving this for much later, but since you mentioned it, I might as well address it.

Let’s review a scenario. Using S/P as an example.

IS -> PW -> BP = total 15 initiatives (tapped out)

Another strength of having this Exhaustion is allowing Thieves to swap weapons, use the skills in that set for zero initiative but putting them in cooldown, then swap back to your main weapon set. Given that swapping has a 10s cooldown, you’ll have 10 initiatives ready to use by the time you swap back.

Being denied access to your off-set weapon skills because you have no initiatives left is not fun.

So now we’re redesigning the thief entirely, not entirely actually, just 75% of the way.

Feel free to continue to provide feedback, just know that the effort it will take to do this work would be implemented with an expansion at the earliest. Hopefully not ever, as the thief is one of the professions that needs a redesign the least, I’d rather see that time go into Ranger, Elementalist, and Necromancer.

Shockwave.1230:

So now we’re redesigning the thief entirely, not entirely actually, just 75% of the way.

Feel free to continue to provide feedback, just know that the effort it will take to do this work would be implemented with an expansion at the earliest. Hopefully not ever, as the thief is one of the professions that needs a redesign the least, I’d rather see that time go into Ranger, Elementalist, and Necromancer.

I disagree. Thieves needs the most overhaul. If you look at our current weapon set, we have the least amount of sets to choose from. We don’t have a range weapon with 1200 range. D/D and P/P weapon set needs to be remade. Most of our traits are crap. Our current weapon set encourages mind-numbing skill spamming…the list goes on.

Putting the timer on other profession is pointless since they already have cooldowns.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

So now we’re redesigning the thief entirely, not entirely actually, just 75% of the way.

Feel free to continue to provide feedback, just know that the effort it will take to do this work would be implemented with an expansion at the earliest. Hopefully not ever, as the thief is one of the professions that needs a redesign the least, I’d rather see that time go into Ranger, Elementalist, and Necromancer.

I disagree. Thieves needs the most overhaul. If you look at our current weapon set, we have the least amount of sets to choose from. We don’t have a range weapon with 1200 range. D/D and P/P weapon set needs to be remade. Most of our traits are crap. Our current weapon set encourages mind-numbing skill spamming…the list goes on.

Putting the timer on other profession is pointless since they already have cooldowns.

There are three possible weapon sets for the engineer.

DonEllz.6312:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

So now we’re redesigning the thief entirely, not entirely actually, just 75% of the way.

Feel free to continue to provide feedback, just know that the effort it will take to do this work would be implemented with an expansion at the earliest. Hopefully not ever, as the thief is one of the professions that needs a redesign the least, I’d rather see that time go into Ranger, Elementalist, and Necromancer.

I disagree. Thieves needs the most overhaul. If you look at our current weapon set, we have the least amount of sets to choose from. We don’t have a range weapon with 1200 range. D/D and P/P weapon set needs to be remade. Most of our traits are crap. Our current weapon set encourages mind-numbing skill spamming…the list goes on.

Putting the timer on other profession is pointless since they already have cooldowns.

There are three possible weapon sets for the engineer.

See HERE

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DonEllz.6312:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

So now we’re redesigning the thief entirely, not entirely actually, just 75% of the way.

Feel free to continue to provide feedback, just know that the effort it will take to do this work would be implemented with an expansion at the earliest. Hopefully not ever, as the thief is one of the professions that needs a redesign the least, I’d rather see that time go into Ranger, Elementalist, and Necromancer.

I disagree. Thieves needs the most overhaul. If you look at our current weapon set, we have the least amount of sets to choose from. We don’t have a range weapon with 1200 range. D/D and P/P weapon set needs to be remade. Most of our traits are crap. Our current weapon set encourages mind-numbing skill spamming…the list goes on.

Putting the timer on other profession is pointless since they already have cooldowns.

There are three possible weapon sets for the engineer.

See HERE

You said weapon sets, not class mechanic. The Official weapon set number for engineer is 3.. then kits which are optional.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

So now we’re redesigning the thief entirely, not entirely actually, just 75% of the way.

Feel free to continue to provide feedback, just know that the effort it will take to do this work would be implemented with an expansion at the earliest. Hopefully not ever, as the thief is one of the professions that needs a redesign the least, I’d rather see that time go into Ranger, Elementalist, and Necromancer.

I disagree. Thieves needs the most overhaul. If you look at our current weapon set, we have the least amount of sets to choose from. We don’t have a range weapon with 1200 range. D/D and P/P weapon set needs to be remade. Most of our traits are crap. Our current weapon set encourages mind-numbing skill spamming…the list goes on.

Putting the timer on other profession is pointless since they already have cooldowns.

P/P I wouldn’t call not viable. Combine it with Ambush it’s a solid weapon set to have, it’s just not found a place with a meta secondary weapon set yet. I don’t like the way that P/P plays, but it doesn’t need remade. I would like to Body Shot redone and potentially tweaks to Unload, but that only impacts 2 weapon sets not the whole thief.

D/D not being viable doesn’t justify a complete remake of the thief either. Death Blossom and Dancing Dagger just need revamps, which won’t affect any other weapon set other than S/D because of Dancing Dagger.

As far as a thief having a 1200 range weapon, I disagree that it needs one. Thief has ports, which makes up for the range disadvantage. If you really want to get first strike every time regardless of range you can grab Long Reach, or chain an Infiltrator’s Skill with steal.

Thief traits are in a solid place if you ask me:

• Deadly Arts line is fantastic. All the minor traits are useful. There’s only two bad Major traits that should never see use, and they’re in the adept line (II & V).
• Critical Strikes is another great line. All minor traits useful. Again only two bad Major Traits imo that should never see use (IX & XI)
• Shadow Arts is solid. People complain about it all the time, because of WvW. Last Refuge is bad imo, for PvP. Like all defensive lines on any non-bunker professions though, I would rarely use any of these traits.
• Acrobatics is solid too. The only trait that I feel people shouldn’t ever use from it is Assassin’s Reward.
• Trickery is solid as well. IMO Initial Strike and Merciful should never be used.

In summary of the trait line though, they’re good.

The only work that I’d like to see done to the thief is, on D/D and P/P for the 3/4 and 2/3 skills respectively.

Other than that, the profession is in a solid place.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Auesis.7301:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Introducing – “Exhaustion” mechanic
What do you guys think?

RIP PvE Thieves.

Seriously, do you have any idea how much this would COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY RUIN EVERYTHING? I’m not one to exaggerate, either. I would delete my character and re-roll to main Warrior in an instant because it would be made absolutely worthless.

Can you be more specific on how it would be “absolutely worthless”?

Keep in mind that this is just an idea that can later on be tweaked and balanced so the numbers can be ignored for now.

Because almost ALL high-end Thief play relies on repeated skill use to get utility or DPS. One of our redeeming factors (highest DPS in the game on bosses) comes from using the Backstab rotation over and over ie. hitting C+D lots of times in a short time frame, followed by spamming Heartseeker under 50% HP. Keeping the team safe from hard hitting trash mobs in Fractals requires repeated use of Black Powder in a short time frame. Using stealth tactics (one of our greatest assets) requires repeated use of Cluster Bomb inside a Smoke Screen as half of its utility (the other half being Shadow Refuge or Blinding Powder half-way through the stealth run). Oh, and that Cluster Bomb spam? Centric to another of our massive bonuses – access to the most Blast Finishers. P/P’s main ranged DPS is repeatedly spamming Unload. S/P’s greatest self-sustain and DPS asset when doing things like soloing dungeons or fighting dangerous groups is spamming Pistol Whip. If you were to use a PvE condition build, spamming Death Blossom would be a main feature to maximise potential.

Unless you tweak the numbers you have to the point where they might as well be not implemented at all, this will break us completely. Potential DPS will sink FAR below other classes, utility will be split in half and ALL redeeming qualities to a speedrun group will be lost.

Auesis.7301:

Because almost ALL high-end Thief play relies on repeated skill use to get utility or DPS. One of our redeeming factors (highest DPS in the game on bosses) comes from using the Backstab rotation over and over ie. hitting C+D lots of times in a short time frame, followed by spamming Heartseeker under 50% HP. Keeping the team safe from hard hitting trash mobs in Fractals requires repeated use of Black Powder in a short time frame. Using stealth tactics (one of our greatest assets) requires repeated use of Cluster Bomb inside a Smoke Screen as half of its utility (the other half being Shadow Refuge or Blinding Powder half-way through the stealth run). Oh, and that Cluster Bomb spam? Centric to another of our massive bonuses – access to the most Blast Finishers. P/P’s main ranged DPS is repeatedly spamming Unload. S/P’s greatest self-sustain and DPS asset when doing things like soloing dungeons or fighting dangerous groups is spamming Pistol Whip. If you were to use a PvE condition build, spamming Death Blossom would be a main feature to maximise potential.

Unless you tweak the numbers you have to the point where they might as well be not implemented at all, this will break us completely. Potential DPS will sink FAR below other classes, utility will be split in half and ALL redeeming qualities to a speedrun group will be lost.

That is an excellent summary on the Thief’s game play that hopefully had shed lights on the facts rather than on the fictions.

Shockwave.1230:

• Acrobatics is solid too. The only trait that I feel people shouldn’t ever use from it is Assassin’s Reward.

all of acro’s gm traits are garbage (the minors are really good though, and some majors are decent).
da only has 1 good major trait, because it’s not worth investing points past adept major unless you’re condi.
sa makes you too heavily reliant on stealth, a very counterable mechanic that is extra bad in spvp.
critical strikes’ traits are okay-ish for the most part
trickery has the best traits.

anyways, initiative is fine.

I would like to invite anyone who wants to discuss the “Exhaustion” further HERE since we’re really getting way off topic. Also, I have updated the initial idea with considerations to many inputs so far.

Thank you.