Guild Wars 2

eleshazar.6902:

Overkillengine.6084:

eleshazar.6902:

The truth is Anet created a higher need for full zerk in pve with less tolerance for the person to slip in with a condi build of pvt. In wvw/pvp all they did was make condis stronger by nerfing direct damage.

So most builds will look like this for high game play in each mode

PvE = Full zerk no defense stats at all (higher skill cap, newer/less skilled players can’t pull it off.

PvP = Condi/Precision/Vit or tough builds will be very prevelant. Expect to see more condi warriors/necros/mesmers/thieves and less direct damage build (the entire guardian class).

WvW = Dire. Everywhere. All day. Buy the gear before the price goes through the roof.

And then all those Dire users get mowed down by a properly built and played power train in WvW.

I’m not talking about zerg fights. Those will remain pretty much the same. I’m talking about small scale roaming. trust me a group of dire users would melt a group of pvt users at a camp in a heartbeat….

My guild does a lot of 5 man roaming/camp and tower flipping until more log on and we have enough to zerg hunt or go after a keep.

Take 2 warriors, 2 guardians, and an elementalist, properly build them to handle conditions as a team instead of the usual solo special snowflake builds, and you might be surprised at how well it works.

And that composition scales infinitely without having to worry about damage caps.

It’s been said over and over on the forums. Dire + perplexity/torment + stealth/mobility = lol u dead.

The big thing about condition builds are that they create a HUGE game of rock, paper, scissors. Which I for one despise about the game. The meta builds should be brought down to balance. Which this balance patch seems to have just shifted and created a few more.

Flytrap.8075:

If conditions are fine in WvW, they why do so many commanders and their hammer trains run Melandru runes with the ridiculously expensive Lemongrass Poultry food?

If conditions are fine in WvW, they why are they highly regarded as cheese builds amongst the roaming community?

If conditions are fine in WvW, they why do you think these threads exist in the first place?

If there was food that reduced direct damage by 20%, they’d probably run that. Instead, they take the most efficient option for reducing the enemy’s potential control over their movement. I bet the damage doesn’t even factor in, really.

What builds does the roaming community NOT consider to be cheese? It’s a community fit to bursting with egos, and I’m curious what you think they actually respect. My guess is: any Ele build, any Engi build EXCEPT confusion stacking, condi-tank Ranger. MAYBE Shatter Mesmer, only because then they don’t have to deal with PU Mesmer.

Threads exist that complain about anything/everything, and people often hop on thread-bandwagons when they see others supporting some thing in the game that frustrates them. Right now, it’s condis. People just don’t like building to deal with condis because it limits their damage potential, so they blame condis first and not themselves.

I’ve yet to see a single thread clearly outline exactly what condi cleanse is available for a class, what it takes to get it, what is lost, and why that would severely hinder/break their said class. Not once. Not ever. Always off-handed comments to how something wouldn’t be possible or it would be too much of a sacrifice, never any actual substance.

So, grain of salt.

Cogbyrn.7283:

If there was food that reduced direct damage by 20%, they’d probably run that.

No, because then we’d just get melted by conditions.

TyPin.9860:

@Infamous Darkness.3284:
I can do this amount of damage in a few seconds with my opening attack rotation on my Mesmer phantasm build.

Burst damage, as far as my understanding goes, is dealt within a few seconds. Your example deals it’s full damage after 12 seconds. 11,000 dmg over 12 seconds is not very impressive and it gives your foe a lot of time to cleanse that.

I understand what you’re saying, although I was trying to give an example of a possible condition burst situation, and although the damage of those skills would continue for 12 seconds or more the combo does 11,000 damage in just 4 seconds.

DeWolfe.2174:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If there was food that reduced direct damage by 20%, they’d probably run that.

No, because then we’d just get melted by conditions.

That and there’s something out there already called Toughness that has no impact on condi damage.

DeWolfe.2174:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If there was food that reduced direct damage by 20%, they’d probably run that.

No, because then we’d just get melted by conditions.

Your hammer train would get melted by conditions? You don’t run condi-cleansing support in your trains to keep everyone doubly clear anyway?

Why not?

If condi-cleansing was viable on it’s own, then no one would have ever started running Melandru and Lemon grass, right? Follow the logic on this one.

Only reason the run melandru and lemon is so that they wont have to spec into condi removal to keep their L33t dps uptime instead of having to click a skill to remove conditions.

basically passive counterplay to conditions.

DeWolfe.2174:

If condi-cleansing was viable on it’s own, then no one would have ever started running Melandru and Lemon grass, right? Follow the logic on this one.

If +40% condi duration cancels -40% condi duration, why are condis never seen in your trains? Just the -25% from Melandru? What if you get +15% condi duration in runes, or +10% duration?

Is -15% or -10% overall condi duration enough to make them totally useless and ignored?

What if you get +30% condi duration from traits? Is +15% or +20% condi duration not enough to make them viable in trains?

Overall I think OP has it right when he says most of complaining is from dummies wearing full zerk and not bringing any condition cleanse. However some people do have some points worth making.

Overall I think conditions are fine, maybe a tiny bit OP in some cases, but overall just bring some more vitality and enough cleanses and play smart and you can win. I personally have zero problem with conditions, but maybe some classes literally can’t bring enough clears do survive, I only know my class.

However there is a balance. You can’t expect to be able to clear all conditions, because then condition builds would do no dmg. Some have to get through, just like how you can’t have infinite dodges and aegis.

Here is a system i think would be better: Merge dmg stats so that power and crit and ferocity each buff direct dmg and condi dmg the same amount (somehow). Then have toughness apply to both. Having two different dmg types with their own mechanics is dumb imo.

DeWolfe.2174:

If condi-cleansing was viable on it’s own, then no one would have ever started running Melandru and Lemon grass, right? Follow the logic on this one.

Melandru and Lemongrass aren’t the only options.

Open your eyes and look for the group condition management options. They exist, and dovetail to remove conditions far better than solo special snowflake Melandru+Lemongrass.

Once you hit critical mass with them you basically can write off enemy condition users in even fights; and if they are bad at it, even in fights where you are outnumbered.

But it does require that one not be the usual l337 zerker max dps retread.

Conditions need to be looked at. I don’t understand how it’s possible for one person to overload a target with conditions. The biggest one I have concerns about is confusion. I’ve listened to what people have had to say, and I remain adamant in believing confusion needs a change. Runes of Perplexity are a terribly good way to put confusion on a target. I’ve literally been hit with 10 stacks of confusion and been like, “This is how I die.” I don’t see any skill in condition overload. I have no issue with people who play their profession so well that they can navigate many conditions onto me, but there are too many one button iWins out there

MSFone.3026:

Here is a system i think would be better: Merge dmg stats so that power and crit and ferocity each buff direct dmg and condi dmg the same amount (somehow). Then have toughness apply to both. Having two different dmg types with their own mechanics is dumb imo.

Then everyone switches to Knight’s gear because it provides superb protection against everything while still allowing good damage.

No, condition damage needs to continue to ignore Toughness.

Overkillengine.6084:

DeWolfe.2174:

If condi-cleansing was viable on it’s own, then no one would have ever started running Melandru and Lemon grass, right? Follow the logic on this one.

Melandru and Lemongrass aren’t the only options.

Open your eyes and look for the group condition management options. They exist, and dovetail to remove conditions far better than solo special snowflake Melandru+Lemongrass.

Once you hit critical mass with them you basically can write off enemy condition users in even fights; and if they are bad at it, even in fights where you are outnumbered.

But it does require that one not be the usual l337 zerker max dps retread.

So it sounds kind of like condi-cleansing IS viable on its own. Is that what you’re putting down? Because that amuses me. I’ve always been more the solo special snowflake type so I’m not up on all the group synergy business the game has going for it.

That seems to be a poorly thought out concern. If someone “overloads” a target with conditions, then everything is on cooldown. Any player worth their salt would use their cleanses at that time, and the enemy is now doing no damage, with all of their skills on cooldown. If your losing to a player who is doing no damage and has all of their skills on cool down, then your loss was based on your actions. And as we all know, no one on the forums could possibly be at fault for their own actions. Clearly by default it must mean everything that beats you is OP.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

MSFone.3026:

Here is a system i think would be better: Merge dmg stats so that power and crit and ferocity each buff direct dmg and condi dmg the same amount (somehow). Then have toughness apply to both. Having two different dmg types with their own mechanics is dumb imo.

Then everyone switches to Knight’s gear because it provides superb protection against everything while still allowing good damage.

No, condition damage needs to continue to ignore Toughness.

Well ya obis it would compress gear choice somewhat. But I’d be ok with not having dozens of gear options for better functioning combat.

Dee Jay.2460:

Conditions suck because they are the exact antithesis of what skillful combat in GW2 should be (and was originally intended) to be about.

Conditions relegate both damage-dealing and damage mitigation almost entirely to class mechanics rather than the “active combat” GW2 was designed around. Dodging becomes secondary when conditions attacks are barely distinguishable and poorly telegraphed.

Avoiding damage comes down to what removal options you have, not how well you move, dodge or play.

It’s the exact opposite of fun and engaging combat.

You can tell that originally Guild Wars 2 was never meant to have such an excessive amount of condition spam. Stuff like Signet of Agility that removes 1 condition on a 30 second cooldown is proof of that.

But things have changed, especially with Runes of Perplexity and Tormet now added to the game and the entire concept of “active combat” has become diluted to the point where winning a fight comes down to how many different types of conditions you can apply to your opponent vs. how many he can cleanse.

Dis. +1

dancingmonkey.4902:

That seems to be a poorly thought out concern. If someone “overloads” a target with conditions, then everything is on cooldown. Any player worth their salt would use their cleanses at that time, and the enemy is now doing no damage, with all of their skills on cooldown. If your losing to a player who is doing no damage and has all of their skills on cool down, then your loss was based on your actions. And as we all know, no one on the forums could possibly be at fault for their own actions. Clearly by default it must mean everything that beats you is OP.

People don’t want to have to choose. You either get to spec for large amounts of damage; whether it be power or condition, and have to leave at least one hole in your defenses, or accept that you want broad spectrum defenses but give up some potential offense in return.

The comments I am reffering to are the coments spread out on this forum and the numerous other forums. And all you’re telling me is you just aren’t as good at playing a power build as you are a condition build. Your inexperience in dealing with conditions doesn’t prove anything, and your exagerrated comments reflect your ignorance.

And what is it with all this 3 stat vs 1? Dear god you mean someone that does slower damage all the time is able to pick up stats that allow them to live long enough to do damage!?!? And again, I myself play a power build, and have none of these issues everyone is crying about and there are many others like myself. Maybe you just don’t have the skill to properly play a burst damage build eh?

The issue with conditions is not really about the fact that cleanses can’t keep up. Cleanses are not supposed to keep you free from conditions at all times. The issue though is that conditions are so easily applied and re-applied cleansing hardly helps anymore. And it’s not just the damage that’s a concern, because all the bleeds/burns often will be paired with chill, weakness, cripple which will greatly impact the chances of a power build to properly land their attacks and deal any significant damage to you. That paired with condi specs generally being more survivable than their zerker counterparts does lead me to believe that the nerf to crit damage (some builds see a decrease of 40% crit damage or even more) tilts the balance in favour of condi specs a bit too much.

By design conditions can’t burst as they deal damage per tick and if its a unchanged stack of conditions its always the same damage per tick.
Also, most people seems to forget that the defensive stat that, in some way, help you with conditions is Vitality, its partialy the reason why its realy hard to kill Necro wit a conditions, especialy if that said Necro is in DS( DS=massive HP and Vitality affect your HP).
You also forgeting, as meantioned, about skill delay, skill lag, skill aftercast, skill channelling, projectail speed(in case of range attacks) and finaly about spreed of projectails(some range attacks have massive spreed so its really hard to hit) when talking about condition “burst”.
It takes me around of 5-7 seconds to activate all my, condition applying, skills to cause some condition presure, exacly because the reasons that i maentioned above.

But in my opinion the reason why people complain about condition is that they don’t notice the small damage ticks, from conditions, during the fight so they have hard time predicting, or straight fail at it, how much it will take from their HP pool after some time. Basicaly its easier to react to big instant damage than to small damage over time.

Cold Hearted Person.6154:

By design conditions can’t burst as they deal damage per tick and if its a unchanged stack of conditions its always the same damage per tick.
Also, most people seems to forget that the defensive stat that, in some way, help you with condition is Vitality, its partialy the reason why its realy hard to kill Necro wit a conditions, especialy if that said Necro is in DS.
You also forgeting, as meantioned, about skill delay, skill lag, skill aftercast, skill channelling, projectail speed(in case of range attacks) and finaly about spreed of projectails(some range attacks have massive spreed so its really hard to hit) when talking about condition “burst”.

But in my opinion the reason why people complain about condition is that they dont notice the small damage ticks, from conditions, during the fight so they have hard time predicting, or straight fail at it, how much it will take from their HP pool after some time. Basicaly its easier to react to big instant damage than to small damage over time.

People complain about conditions because they can’t spec to fully deal with conditions(which just about every class can) and still go kill the guardian running around bunkering. There is a choice and if some can get conditions nerfed enough then the choice becomes much easier for them to take more damage and less condition removal. That is all that will happen.

Hmm, you know, to mitigate/avoid direct damage you need dodge, block, blind, invulnerbility skills, armor(toughness reduce damage) and movments(sidesteping and just runing around).

To mitigate/avoid condition damage you need dodge, block, blind, invulnerability skills, vitality(give more time to deal with conditions), movements(same as a bove) and condition removal.

From this i can tell that ther is no problem with conditions as a game mechanics, its the issue with players not being able to deal with them( most likely cause their build is not speced to deal with conditions).

Bryzy.2719:

Why have conditions recently popped up for hot debate?

Is it because everyone who is QQing for a nerf is running some faceroll DPS i-have-no-condi-removal type build? Shifts in build metas is the only reason I can think of for why you’re all QQing.

I seriously hope they leave conditions as they are. Might teach DPS fanboys that you can’t have the best of everything after all. And actually, I do have a vested interest in keeping conditions as they are. Speaking as a Ranger, the last thing I want to see is our only viable WvW roaming/pvp build (condi bunker regen) nerfed because of your QQing.

If they nerf condi too they might as well just delete the Ranger profession.

Condi, bunker, AND regen? You really don’t understand why people complained? Conditions were already better since they only need one offensive stat, the other two can be defensive, resulting in a bunker that can deal good damage. Not to mention conditions also ignore toughness. The ferocity nerf made power builds even worse.

People QQed becaused their builds got nerfed. YOUR build didn’t even get nerfed yet and you’re already QQ about other people QQing. Who’s the real QQer here?

It is hard to take your QQ seriously Ivalice, when you make inaccurate assumptions. From all I have seen posted in video comparison, and the skill to skill damage comparisons, as well as my own test, Direct damage builds only need one stat as well. Power. Exactly as you claim condition users need. So what is the problem?

dancingmonkey.4902:

It is hard to take your QQ seriously Ivalice, when you make inaccurate assumptions. From all I have seen posted in video comparison, and the skill to skill damage comparisons, as well as my own test, Direct damage builds only need one stat as well. Power. Exactly as you claim condition users need. So what is the problem?

you must be mistaking gw2 for some other game

direct damage builds require at least 2 stats precision and power however without crit damage it wont be theatening damage against heavily armored players

whereas condi builds just roll a finger around the keyboard slapping storms of conditions and destroying targets indiscriminetly cuz condi damage only needs 1 stat and ignores armor

love how condi defenders suddenly got amnesia and ignore the part where everyone mentions that what makes conditions imbalanced is the fact condi builds can have full vit and toughness as well as max damage thanks to dire gear

try full rampager gear the zerker version of condi gear see how people will actually be more accepting to conditions when you can actually get punished for spamming your cooldowns caelessly

Rezzet.3614:

dancingmonkey.4902:

It is hard to take your QQ seriously Ivalice, when you make inaccurate assumptions. From all I have seen posted in video comparison, and the skill to skill damage comparisons, as well as my own test, Direct damage builds only need one stat as well. Power. Exactly as you claim condition users need. So what is the problem?

you must be mistaking gw2 for some other game

direct damage builds require at least 2 stats precision and power however without crit damage it wont be theatening damage against heavily armored players

whereas condi builds just roll a finger around the keyboard slapping storms of conditions and destroying targets indiscriminetly cuz condi damage only needs 1 stat and ignores armor

Can I get incorrect answers for $1,000, Alex?

Here’s a fun fact: Condition builds need condition duration. With 0 condition duration, a necro wielding a scepter in Soldier’s gear actually out-damages one in Dire against 2600 armor. Necro scepter is a hard condition damage weapon with horrid power scaling, yet it needs 40% bleed duration and 25% poison duration just to scale as well with condition damage as it does with power.

Sigil of purity removes one condition pretty well every 10 seconds. How many complaining about conditions use it?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Rezzet.3614:

dancingmonkey.4902:

It is hard to take your QQ seriously Ivalice, when you make inaccurate assumptions. From all I have seen posted in video comparison, and the skill to skill damage comparisons, as well as my own test, Direct damage builds only need one stat as well. Power. Exactly as you claim condition users need. So what is the problem?

you must be mistaking gw2 for some other game

direct damage builds require at least 2 stats precision and power however without crit damage it wont be theatening damage against heavily armored players

whereas condi builds just roll a finger around the keyboard slapping storms of conditions and destroying targets indiscriminetly cuz condi damage only needs 1 stat and ignores armor

Can I get incorrect answers for $1,000, Alex?

Here’s a fun fact: Condition builds need condition duration. With 0 condition damage, a necro wielding a scepter in Soldier’s gear actually out-damages one in Dire against 2600 armor. Necro scepter is a hard condition damage weapon with horrid power scaling, yet it needs 40% bleed duration and 25% poison duration just to scale as well with condition damage as it does with power.

condi dur aint mentioned because condi duration i pretty much added by default with traits necro gets about 50% bleed duration on traits alone warrior can get 80% with their 50% bleed trait and power trait
so thats easily 90-120% condi dure with traits and food alone add an extra 25% with runes if you may wich also add up to condi damage

so where there is condi damage there is condi duration at least

so there ya have it with 40 trait points you already get max duration and power wich leaves the remaining 30 points for condi damage and precision giving you max damage all you need to top it off is dire gear and bam max survivability as well

babazhook.6805:

Sigil of purity removes one condition pretty well every 10 seconds. How many complaining about conditions use it?

yeah lets all run warriors with cleansing ire and sigils of purity and generosity

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Rezzet.3614:

dancingmonkey.4902:

It is hard to take your QQ seriously Ivalice, when you make inaccurate assumptions. From all I have seen posted in video comparison, and the skill to skill damage comparisons, as well as my own test, Direct damage builds only need one stat as well. Power. Exactly as you claim condition users need. So what is the problem?

you must be mistaking gw2 for some other game

direct damage builds require at least 2 stats precision and power however without crit damage it wont be theatening damage against heavily armored players

whereas condi builds just roll a finger around the keyboard slapping storms of conditions and destroying targets indiscriminetly cuz condi damage only needs 1 stat and ignores armor

Can I get incorrect answers for $1,000, Alex?

Here’s a fun fact: Condition builds need condition duration. With 0 condition damage, a necro wielding a scepter in Soldier’s gear actually out-damages one in Dire against 2600 armor. Necro scepter is a hard condition damage weapon with horrid power scaling, yet it needs 40% bleed duration and 25% poison duration just to scale as well with condition damage as it does with power.

Two things:

1. It very much amuses me that condition damage doesn’t outpace power on a condition weapon like that. “But… but… one stat.”

2. Yes… embrace the Jeopardy reference. Spread the Jeopardy reference.

Rezzet.3614:

dancingmonkey.4902:

It is hard to take your QQ seriously Ivalice, when you make inaccurate assumptions. From all I have seen posted in video comparison, and the skill to skill damage comparisons, as well as my own test, Direct damage builds only need one stat as well. Power. Exactly as you claim condition users need. So what is the problem?

you must be mistaking gw2 for some other game

direct damage builds require at least 2 stats precision and power however without crit damage it wont be theatening damage against heavily armored players

whereas condi builds just roll a finger around the keyboard slapping storms of conditions and destroying targets indiscriminetly cuz condi damage only needs 1 stat and ignores armor

You must be mistaking your opinion for math, while mistaken reason for confusion. It is a fact that direct damage builds only need 1 stat for damage. No one is mention “optimal” damage, and if you think 1 stat does conditions fine when condition duration very literally doubles condition damage, then you simply ignoring actual math.

Well I came across a rabid engi in spvp earlier today, and he melted my bunker engi like nothing. My healing and condition removal simply could not keep up with his condi damage.

I honestly can say I am worried about this balance.

JackDaniels.1697:

Well I came across a rabid engi in spvp earlier today, and he melted my bunker engi like nothing. My healing and condition removal simply could not keep up with his condi damage.

I honestly can say I am worried about this balance.

You might want to redesign your bunker spec then. Because the bunker spec I play has stood up to many a condition build including Engi and Necro while also holding off a point against 1 or 2 of his teammates. In fact, met another bunker Engi in some matches last night, wound up on the same team, and had some epic fun. In one match we literally locked down the entire map with a score of 500 to 0.

>>yeah lets all run warriors with cleansing ire and sigils of purity and generosity

Perhaps you are unaware that any class can use sigil of purity.

Or perhaps the “lack of condition” cleansing is being overstated and the people complaining the loudest would rather run skills/traits/sigils that output more damage.

If one CHOOSES not to run condition cleanses at their disposal because they like something better then the problem is not a lack of condition cleanses.

dancingmonkey.4902:

It is hard to take your QQ seriously Ivalice, when you make inaccurate assumptions. From all I have seen posted in video comparison, and the skill to skill damage comparisons, as well as my own test, Direct damage builds only need one stat as well. Power. Exactly as you claim condition users need. So what is the problem?

Lol, put on your PVT gear, with no crit and crit damage. Go roam a bit and come back to tell me about your “test”.

What’s the problem? The problem is if you meet another Power Bunker, it’s ok because you can’t kill him, but he can’t kill you either. If you meet a Power Glass, it’s also ok because he deals good damage to you, but since he has low defense, you can also deal good damage to him. It’s balanced.

But then you meet a Condition Bunker wearing Dire gear. Your damage to him will be very low but he can still deal good damage to you. You can trait/bring as many condition removals as you want, you will still lose. That’s the problem.

That’s why many people roam as Condition Bunker and none as Power Bunker. In Power builds, you must choose between damage and survival. Condition Builds can have both.

Simply put , players complain about conditions because most of them are really bad players.

Thats my conclusion after being told Im a noob engineer who runs a cheesy spec with perplexity and dire by enemy players in wvw at least a dozen times since the leagues started.
They see confusion and cry perplexity, they see conditions and cry dire, even tho I use boon duration (water now) and carrion. They just assume I’m a “condition bunker” out of their own frustration by being beaten.

Also, this isn’t and should never be a game balanced around 1v1. Condition removal gets hugely boosted by teamplay (and I don’t mean the mindless guardian warrior trains 20+ man trains), same as many other aspects of the game. For example, I play my necro with full zerker gear when we roam as a 5 man group because I’ll have trivial cleanses, near permanent stability, protection, regen and heals, 25 might, area pulls and stuns, etc, stuff I’d never have alone and multiplies your “power” greatly. Stuff that makes the difference between a bad group and a good group.

and as a roamer, I don’t respect most dire users, not because it’s cheesy, but because it’s inefective outside of some 1v1s and a couple of niche builds.

The one thing I feel it’s wrong with conditions is the soft cc base durations (chill/cripple) and immobilize stacking which should’ve never been introduced.

I think the biggest problem atm in meta is the aoe cleanses of condition. Ppl used to run in a mob of football hooligans and hide from own responsibility. It make ppl expect condition to be passively handled and when they run into a situation they have to play the game the self and not press 111112221111111 to dmg and handle defence they lose to the roamer who is experienced in cleanse conditions, handle dmg and mobility etc.

Make al condi cleanses only affect the player and players in same group, who use the cleanse. You ppl just lazy and want to build al around dmg and not be forced to trait/build around condition defence.

Also limit the number of AOE cleanses and give ppl more solo on demand clenses.

This would reward group play but make it less useful to blob.

L2care issue.

/Osicat

Why the moaning about conditions? Because for the very simple fact that you can build yourself to be a complete tank and still push out great damage that is completely unmitigated by toughness/armor. Too many classes have the ability to unload way more conditions then any class could hope to cleanse. They can unload their conditions and just concentrate on kiting while they tick away all your health…too many last way too long and too many are available on auto attacks.

You combined this with a direct nerf to power build damage. In PvE maybe it was needed….hell I don’t know because I don’t play it but the very concept of being a heavy condition build in PvE has got to be the most boring game play I could think of. However, in pvp both sPvP and WvW its just asinine how powerful conditions have become. It is the most low risk high reward play style beyond any doubt.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Ugruk.4069:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Ugruk.4069:

Conditions dont require 3 stats like Power builds do (power prec and ferocity) to do good, so you can chose quite tanky amulets and you have a bunky damage dealer with no downside

A ton of conditions proc from other attacks like bombs, grenades, crits, shattering clones etc which even if you wanted you cant dodge them all,

And last dont require any kind of special positional thinking, just stay in range and cast them, then you can even switch it up melting the rest of the team

So yeah It’s basically it

This post above is a prime example of the things in the quoted post below.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Most of it is irrational misconception. If you read most of the complaints, those complaining do not actually even know how much damage most of the conditions are doing when compared to direct damage, or they complain about one specific skills condition duration, as if it represents conditions as a whole. If you ask me, most of the complaints are poorly thought out, and come from a clear lack of understanding of the facts of the situation.

Way to go dismissing all the points because of “irrational misconception” if they did crap damage then people wouldnt complain about them…

Why shouldn’t they be dismissed. They were not true. 100% condition duration literally double condition damage, yet folks such as yourself make the inaccurate claim, repeatedly, that only the stat of condition damage is needed in a condition build

As far as your comment about people complaining about them, well those poster, much like yourself use inaccurate information in your argument and judgement. As well, damage comparisons showing condition skills out damaging direct damage skills, even after ferocity was added, are non-existant.

If you disagree, please, by all means, show us some damage comparisons.

Here is an example from my perspective. A warrior in all soldiers gear against an bomb engineer in all dire gear. Not only does the warrior in this case severely out damage the bomb engineer, but the warrior also gets a long AoE stun, knockdown, and knock back.

What? You can reach how much condi duration in spvp? What the hell? Nobody ran that kind of condi duration, and they were still effective do you spvp at all?

So comparing OP classes the most OP one wins? Tell me more about balance… Change that warrior to a elementalist and try again…

Brando.1374:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

Tim.6450:

Spiuk.8421:

Anyone with half a clue can see why conditions are completely broken.

It’s basic math, really.

please show me this basic math.

sorry this is a lazy comparison but I thought I would try to show an example of a condition burst.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flurry
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impale_
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riposte
with 8 stack of might from FGJ and SoR, as well as Banner of strength (170 condi power) and sigil of corruption (250 condition)

2127 condition damage total
bleed
(0.05 * Condition Damage) + 42.5 per stack per second at level 80
((0.05 * 2127) + 42.5)*12=1786.2

torment
(0.0375 * Condition Damage) + 31.875 per stack per second at level 80
(0.075 * Condition Damage) + 63.75 per stack per second at level 80 while moving
((0.075 * 2127) + 63.75)*5=1116.38

(1789.2+1116.38) * 4 (over 4 seconds)= 11622.3 still not the best burst but eh.

Really lazy bad build for reference: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.0|c.0.0.c.0.0.0.0.0|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|5q.719.5q.719.5q.719.5q.719.5q.719.5q.719.0.0.0.0.0.0|2x.0.2x.0.2w.0.2x.0.21n.0.2w.0|u267.u389.0.0.0|0.0|0.69.62.0.6m|e

conditions are not broken.
warrior conditions builds are

Funny… warrior condi is just about the only active playstyle condi there is. Not to mention, these skills are well telegraphed, and take a significant amount of time to really hurt a ton.

Also, that math does not take into account the duration of the bleeds from flurry having only a 3s base duration, torment applies a stack every second up to 5 seconds (btw, this skill is extremely telegraphed) and riposte requires the target to be in melee.

As far as conditions go, all condition builds should be more like a Warrior condition build. Active playstyles need to be introduced to conditions, and anyone except warriors (and maybe engineers, but engis can still faceroll their keyboard and win), needs to be rebalanced.

condition builds are for solo roaming or roaming in very very small groups. as soon as some aoe cleansing comes together in an organised group or big zerg all condis are a nonfactor and power damage is the game. in 1v1 condition builds dominate power builds as a rule because very seldom someone actually has enough cleanse to sustain themselves. only a few builds can load up enough clease to persist against, say, a perplexity engi in a 1v1.

Bryzy.2719:

Why have conditions recently popped up for hot debate?

Is it because everyone who is QQing for a nerf is running some faceroll DPS i-have-no-condi-removal type build? Shifts in build metas is the only reason I can think of for why you’re all QQing.

I seriously hope they leave conditions as they are. Might teach DPS fanboys that you can’t have the best of everything after all. And actually, I do have a vested interest in keeping conditions as they are. Speaking as a Ranger, the last thing I want to see is our only viable WvW roaming/pvp build (condi bunker regen) nerfed because of your QQing.

If they nerf condi too they might as well just delete the Ranger profession.

Maybe will make people get more organized to cleanse condis, instead the of the zerg n’blob 11111111 key spam, but a little buff on condis cleanse would be nice to.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

TyPin.9860:

@Infamous Darkness.3284:
I can do this amount of damage in a few seconds with my opening attack rotation on my Mesmer phantasm build.

Burst damage, as far as my understanding goes, is dealt within a few seconds. Your example deals it’s full damage after 12 seconds. 11,000 dmg over 12 seconds is not very impressive and it gives your foe a lot of time to cleanse that.

I understand what you’re saying, although I was trying to give an example of a possible condition burst situation, and although the damage of those skills would continue for 12 seconds or more the combo does 11,000 damage in just 4 seconds.

Even in the very unlikely case, that all of the conditions hit, they do their work after a long time. Yes, you may have applied the skills within 4 seconds, but the one on the receiving end has so much time to deal with those conditions that this so called condition “burst” is not a burst at all.

Condition loading becomes way more interesting after the fight has lasted for some time already and you have to deal with some of the old conditions on you and the new ones. Then it doesn’t come down to only 11k damage in 12 seconds, but in up to 2k till even 3k damage per second for a brief time (in case of a Terrormancer for instance). This is what people seem to misunderstand. There is condition loading, but no condition burst. There are peaks of condition damage in a fight, and this peaks need to be avoided and condition cleanse has to be applied in the critical moment.

If done properly, condition builds, who shine the most in small scale fighting, are leveled with the power builds and fall far behind the more players are involved, assuming all know what they are doing.

Conditions damage takes advantage of the lack of understanding it and hits the players most, that are not prepared for it…

Osicat.4139:

Make al condi cleanses only affect the player and players in same group, who use the cleanse. You ppl just lazy and want to build al around dmg and not be forced to trait/build around condition defence.

Also limit the number of AOE cleanses and give ppl more solo on demand clenses.

I would go one step further, as I’ve posted before.

• Cleanses are either self-only, or targeted-ally (so you have to actively target them!).
• Conditions are much less common, but also much more powerful.
• Same for boons.
• Cleanses have comparatively high cooldown, but so have the conditions and boons they strip.

People really need to stop acting like condi duration is even remotely comparable to the investment a power build needs to get similar results. You get it from runes sigils traits and food and it allows you to literally double your damage while still running stupid things like +700 vit and toughness from dire. Compare that to a power build where running full zerker only gives you 40% more dps than full soldier with the same traits. A condi bunker’s food does that.

You also shouldn’t ignore that the condi meta mandated condi clearing we run, which is absolutely necessary to stand a chance against a condi build, makes the condis from non condi builds utterly trivial. Immobilise is barely noticeable when a power build does it but when a condi build does it and multiple cover condis that all get applied by auto attacks or crit procs you get ridiculous situations like ether renewal failing to break immobilise despite removing 8 condis over 4 seconds.

I like how everyone who is defending conditions in this thread acts like anyone who is complaining is just some noob who wandered into WvW and doesn’t want to take condition removal.

Let me tell you a little secret: condition removal is mandatory; anyone who takes any aspect of WvW seriously, both zerging or roaming, realizes this. If a build can’t invest in condition removal through a heal skill or slotting certain utilities, you can bet your kitten that they’re going to take whatever traits they can find that give them access to condition removal.

Now, guess what? Condition removal is finite. You can always dodge a backstab and no class needs to invest in any traits, utilities, or weapon sets in order to have access to dodging. Furthermore, you’re allowed two dodges from the get-go and your endurance bar fills relatively quickly. However, with conditions, if your condition removal is on cooldown and they’re reapplied to you during that duration, you’re generally kittened.

It honestly baffles me that ANet would nerf critical damage when condition bunker builds have already been thriving in WvW and sPvP.

Flytrap.8075:

Now, guess what? Condition removal is finite. You can always dodge a backstab. You can always block a warrior’s burst skill. Simply put, there are a lot of things that you can do to outplay a power build. However, with conditions, if your condition removal is on cooldown and they’re reapplied to you during that duration, you’re generally kittened.

You can always dodge a Backstab? You always have enough Endurance, and you can watch its telegraph to dodge its animation? You always dodge the second Backstab that follows after the first misses?

You can always block a Warrior’s burst? Your blocks are always off of cooldown, so you can just always get the block off?

Oh, but with conditions, we’re analyzing when all of your condition removal is down. Never mind when you’re out of Endurance/Block/Evasion/Invuln, you can always counter Power damage, but Condi, when removal is down, you apparently can’t dodge/block/evade/blind/invuln their application.

Here, I’m going to give you an argument to use: with condition application, the pressure is spread out so evenly that the effectiveness of your dodge is minimized. With Power, damage is often front-loaded onto an ability or two that, if you dodge, can help swing a fight in your favor. If you dodge/block some condition application, you’re still probably taking some pressure. If you dodge power pressure, you’re probably taking minimal (depending).

Use that, please. Say that you can’t dodge the 5 stacks of interrupt confusion from Perplex runes because, by its definition, they have to interrupt one of your actions.

But don’t act like you can’t avoid condition application in every single way that you can avoid power application.