Guild Wars 2

coglin.1867:

I have to agree. There are a lot of post on this topic that break it down and explain it in a reasonable, provable, and practical manner. The only reason I can see for not offering actual evidence, is either because of a direct biased dislike for the food being used against those showing bias with no evidence, or a concern for discovering ones bias is inaccurate.

As far as this discussion goes, it has been had over and over repeatedly. Everyone who claims the food is over powered refuses to offer actual evidence, while those who disagree comparative evidence.

As was pointed out earlier, since we are going on the “cause I said so” rule, as I read it stated. The food is perfectly fine because I say so. To elaborate in the nature of many on this thread, my experience with it suggest it makes congruent damage changes to that of other food. thus no changes are necessary.

Is most of the evidence around how many additional ticks bleeds/burns/Terror fears get? Has the impact of weakness duration been quantified? What about chill/immobilize? Confusion, since it does damage? The main argument I see is “If the base duration isn’t > 2 seconds, it doesn’t even provide any extra damage”, which is true in a narrow-minded sense. How much additional damage does someone take if they’re Immobilized for an extra second?

coglin.1867:

Overkillengine.6084:

There is no evidence that can be offered in text form in a complete enough manner to show the actual overall effects of said food thanks to the woeful inadequacy teh spredsheetz has when it comes to actually modelling combat.

Those who disagree with you seem to think so, and display and explain it quit thoroughly. So I disagree with your claim on this matter.

Either way it is still more evidence then you chose to display. But yes, it is a fact, that the damage specific skills can be determined very easily. As well its damage before and after food is applied can be determined. Whether it is in battle or not is irrelevant. The fact that the food you complain about has been shown to increase damage less then food you seem to be okay with.

It’s like you are being deliberately dense.

The 40% +/- duration affects ALL conditions not just the damage ones. Focusing on just the damaging ones is either myopic or disingenuous at best. The point I am trying to illuminate you with despite your persistence in trying to ignore it is that there are a host of non damaging conditions that act both offensively and defensively in a manner that cannot be so tritely quantified on paper, thus why it is pointless to try to treat a few gerrymandered calculations as some sort of holy writ that dare not be questioned.

And even that ignores the basic skeptical inquiry as to why the global duration food warrants a 40% mod when specific condition duration foods get 15%.

Are you spending that much time running away that a single immobilize makes the difference in a fight? Seems to me that would vary greatly from profession to profession and build to build.

What build are you using that it is a problem with?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Are you spending that much time running away that a single immobilize makes the difference in a fight? Seems to me that would vary greatly from profession to profession and build to build.

What build are you using that it is a problem with?

Don’t dodge the question. What is the quantifiable impact of 40% condition duration on the utility conditions? How about on Confusion? I hear those who think the 40% duration food is fine have come out with proof in droves. I figured it would be easy to conjure.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Are you spending that much time running away that a single immobilize makes the difference in a fight? Seems to me that would vary greatly from profession to profession and build to build.

What build are you using that it is a problem with?

Hmm gee immobilizes can be used for more than running away. If I have a long duration one ready right after I know an enemy blew their last cleanse for a bit and they are not running -duration food, that’s a extra time in combat I can use to walk though them and pew pew pew them in the back and they just take it.

While I take next to no damage unless they are smart enough to drop AE’s at their feet.

And that benefits my non condi damage too! Since I get a free chance to apply it unopposed/un-dodged.

That’s the kind of stuff that focusing only on the duration of the damaging conditions utterly ignores. Good luck quantifying that on paper.

I apologize if it upsets you that I do not answer question. I am not making the initial claims. As well, you do not need to quantify every skill. Ironically, those suggesting the food is OP have quantified no skills what so ever.

Are you spending that much time running away that a single immobilize makes the difference in a fight? Seems to me that would vary greatly from profession to profession and build to build.

What build are you using that it is a problem with?

dancingmonkey.4902:

words

I’m amused that you think I’m falling victim to these condis. I’m actually using them.

Dark Pact is a 3 second base immob. With food alone, it goes up to 4.2 seconds. The extra 1.2 seconds is easily enough time for me to get off another free LB, or a full round of Dagger #1. That can easily be 4-5k damage without breaking a sweat.

Spinal Shivers has a base chill duration of 5 seconds, as does Dark Path. With 40% condi duration food, that goes up to 7 seconds, per ability. This means that with only food, I can stack 14 seconds of chill with 2 abilities, and those abilities have 15 and 16 second cooldowns. Without the food, my Trav runes and Spite line would put me at that mark. Now with the food, I can stack 18 seconds of Chill on those abilities. If you’re doing the math, that’s permachill if they land, not to mention the other potential chill I can land via blinds (since I bring Chilling Darkness).

Same story with Cripple. It’s supposed to be 5 seconds on a 15 second cooldown from Unholy Feast. The food alone bumps it to 7 seconds.

So with snares, what would usually be 15 seconds of snare between 3 skills that chill or cripple, I instead get 21 seconds of snare. And that’s just the snare portion. Let’s not forget that 14 of that is Chill, and the recharge reduction is pretty huge.

Another example, then, from something that isn’t me. Perplexity runes provide 5 stacks of Confusion for 8 seconds. Standalone, that isn’t really unreasonable, though it’s pretty heavy pressure from runes alone. However, it isn’t just 8 seconds unless it bakes the 30% confusion duration into that time from the runes themselves, it’s actually 10.4 seconds, but 8 is the base. Either way, that’s 66% uptime on 5 stacks of confusion, and if you haven’t heard, 5 stacks of confusion hurts pretty badly. Let’s add our 40% duration food: now we’re up to 8*1.7 = 13.6 seconds of 5 stacks of Confusion.

Now perhaps I’m wrong, but I thought one of the counters to Confusion is to stop attacking and go defensive until it falls off. Except those 5 stacks are lasting 13.6 seconds, which gives you a 1.4 second window before they can be reapplied via interrupt again. That’s if you can live that long without really using abilities to still take thousands of damage. If we just examine the food, it’s an extra 3.2 seconds of Confusion. Many blocks/invulns last about 3 seconds, and from the food alone, even if you use a defensive that lasts 3 seconds, you still can’t immediately use an ability out of it without taking damage from the condition.

Say what you will about small-scale WvW encounters, but these little things add up. The kicker is that this food has no real place anywhere else in the game except small-scale WvW, so what is the point of its existence? To discourage small-scale WvW? The game tries hard enough to do that already, and so do the players. Do we really need food shoved in our face that tries to achieve a similar result?

You can try saying “Well just use -40% condi duration food”, but similar math swings the numbers much closer to being inconsequential. My 5 second chills would last 3 seconds if someone is using -40% condi duration food and I’m not using +40%. That means both chills would add up to 6 seconds of chill. Immobilize would last about 1.8 seconds instead of 3, dropping my potential damage while they are CC’d in place by another round of Dagger #1 or an LB, which can easily be 4-5k. My cripple lasts 3 seconds instead of 5.

If I use +40% duration food and my opponent ISN’T using -40% duration food, the chills go from 6 seconds in the above example to 14. Is that really necessary for food alone?

If I want to succeed in my chosen game mode, I don’t feel like I can do so without insuring that I at least counteract the -40% condi duration food, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the damage output of the conditions themselves. Conditions are basically unusable in PvE, so I doubt it’s being used there. In large-scale WvW, it can’t really be used because of constant clears. In organized GvGs, condis probably aren’t a big deal either because of coordinated clears. In sPvP, food doesn’t exist.

This food is entirely about small-scale WvW encounters, and in my opinion, it ruins all choice I have because it’s too influential to pass up.

And if balance in small-scale WvW doesn’t matter, then just get rid of this food and things will still be fine. I mean, the balance doesn’t matter, so what do you care if this food stays? Is it paying you kickbacks for every sale in-game?

Is there a single argument for why this food needs to be at 40% condition duration?

How is a food that can be completely negated by a slew of powers available to everyone be OP?

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m amused that you think I’m falling victim to these condis. I’m actually using them.

Where did he/she say that?

Basically every scenario you mentions can be countered with blocks, blinds, traits, negative condition runes, and so on. Not to mention, dodges can and will avoid you landing some of them. Traits that negate cripple, chill, and immobilize. skills that break cripple, chill, and immobilize completely and so on. The list goes on and on.

The funny thing is, on the 8 professions I leveled mostly in WvW, I personally do not us either food on any of them. I tend to play a lot of power builds. I simply see no reason to nerf them, and no one is presenting facts that change that. other then from the CC aspect, which you took some effort to hash out with actual information a little bit. Thanks for that. I simply find the cripple, chill, and immobilize to easy to deal with on all the professions.

coglin.1867:

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m amused that you think I’m falling victim to these condis. I’m actually using them.

Where did he/she say that?

dancingmonkey.4902:

*Are you spending that much time running away that a single immobilize makes the difference in a fight? Seems to me that would vary greatly from profession to profession and build to build.

What build are you using that it is a problem with?*

Basically the entire post insinuates that I’m the victim of the conditions.

coglin.1867:

Basically every scenario you mentions can be countered with blocks, blinds, traits, negative condition runes, and so on. Not to mention, dodges can and will avoid you landing some of them. Traits that negate cripple, chill, and immobilize. skills that break cripple, chill, and immobilize completely and so on. The list goes on and on.

The funny thing is, on the 8 professions I leveled mostly in WvW, I personally do not us either food on any of them. I tend to play a lot of power builds. I simply see no reason to nerf them, and no one is presenting facts that change that. other then from the CC aspect, which you took some effort to hash out with actual information a little bit. Thanks for that. I simply find the cripple, chill, and immobilize to easy to deal with on all the professions.

Part of the counterplay/interaction with conditions is choosing if and when to clear them. Maybe you can soak one to keep your clears available for another. Maybe you play defensive while one wears off.

Except this contributes to this delay option not really being very feasible.

Let’s use an extreme, impossible example as a baseline for a thought experiment. Let’s say that the food was +/-10000% condition duration. Instead of a 3 second immobilize, it’s a 303 second immobilize. Instead of 5 seconds of chill, it’s 505 seconds of chill. Is this balanced? After all, you can block/blind/dodge/evade/invuln them. You can use trait/skill combinations to clear them. So their duration doesn’t really matter, right?

Of course not. It’s insane to think that every time a condition is applied, you have it until you clear it. That’s just broken and silly. It’s nonsensical to believe that because you can counter their application, their duration doesn’t matter.

Now unless you’re really hard in the paint and DO think that +/-10000% duration food is fine, it means that somewhere between 40% and 10000% there’s a line where it goes from “I see no problem with it” to “I think there’s a problem with it”. Where is that line for you folks?

Also, it’s been brought up time and again that specific condition duration foods are at about 15%. What business does this food have existing at 40% for all? Does that make any sense?

Sartharina.3542:

How is a food that can be completely negated by a slew of powers available to everyone be OP?

It’s not. +40% condi food can be negated by -40% condi food. Most condition classes in WvW will be set up with the +40% food. But I’ve found people running the -40% food to be pretty rare.

This is obviously based on condition damage. If +40% condi duration on non-damaging conditions was OP, why don’t we see more power based specs using the food? +100 power/ +70 ferocity food must be really OP if it’s still chosen over +40% duration on their non-damaging conditions.

So how do you conceal another “nerf conditions!” thread while appearing to have the best, most honest intentions? Claim both sets of duration food are OP. Make it out to look like power based specs are taking a hit with this nerf, despite the majority never actually using the -40% food. They can continue to use the butternut squash soup that they’ve been using the whole time.

Conditions are already terrible in WvW (and the entirety of GW2) outside of roaming. Even while roaming, they are easily dealt with if you play smart. When I actually run into people with the -40% food and use their cleanses with a brain, I hit like a wet noodle.

Actually bringing the 40% foods down to something sane would mean that a spec like power necro could stand a chance in hell at slowing down a Melandru+lemongrass warrior with greatsword whom otherwise would without a change be kitten near untouchable unless you are using the +40% food.

This is an issue shared to varying extents by other power specs that need the CC/debuff conditions to stick at least some in order to be effective.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Foods like this, and actually runes like Perplexity, are going out of their way to try to ruin smaller-scale encounters that a niche community enjoys in WvW.

Thats funny, so do certain builds. Like the perma-stealth Thief, or a stealth Mesmer, Warriors.
Just trolling around with their niche builds that only work in roaming WvW, being uncatchable, ganking people when the oppertunity arises, running away to avoid a fair fight.

So if your argument is to preserve small-scale roaming then we should nerf certain professions/builds aswell then.
Roaming is ruined far more by those gank-builds then by condition-builds, the latter are still outnumbered despite their “overpowered foodbuff”.

randomly.6395:

Sartharina.3542:

How is a food that can be completely negated by a slew of powers available to everyone be OP?

It’s not. +40% condi food can be negated by -40% condi food. Most condition classes in WvW will be set up with the +40% food. But I’ve found people running the -40% food to be pretty rare.

This is obviously based on condition damage. If +40% condi duration on non-damaging conditions was OP, why don’t we see more power based specs using the food? +100 power/ +70 ferocity food must be really OP if it’s still chosen over +40% duration on their non-damaging conditions.

So how do you conceal another “nerf conditions!” thread while appearing to have the best, most honest intentions? Claim both sets of duration food are OP. Make it out to look like power based specs are taking a hit with this nerf, despite the majority never actually using the -40% food. They can continue to use the butternut squash soup that they’ve been using the whole time.

Conditions are already terrible in WvW (and the entirety of GW2) outside of roaming. Even while roaming, they are easily dealt with if you play smart. When I actually run into people with the -40% food and use their cleanses with a brain, I hit like a wet noodle.

Randomly kind of makes a good point most power builds don’t run the -40% food usually warriors do maybe some guards but I rarely see it. Thieves aren’t running it, mesmers usually aren’t running it.

Just typical WvW play I would say the Power/ferocity or Power/precision food is the most popular food that I see. mostly warrior. So if both foods are OP why would you even think about taking anything else except +/- condition duration. Condi builds almost always run +duration but it isn’t the same for direct damage builds running -duration.

Terrahero.9358:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Foods like this, and actually runes like Perplexity, are going out of their way to try to ruin smaller-scale encounters that a niche community enjoys in WvW.

Thats funny, so do certain builds. Like the perma-stealth Thief, or a stealth Mesmer, Warriors.
Just trolling around with their niche builds that only work in roaming WvW, being uncatchable, ganking people when the oppertunity arises, running away to avoid a fair fight.

So if your argument is to preserve small-scale roaming then we should nerf certain professions/builds aswell then.
Roaming is ruined far more by those gank-builds then by condition-builds, the latter are still outnumbered despite their “overpowered foodbuff”.

I have good fights with those builds regularly. Many people in WvW don’t because they simply aren’t set up for success in that situation (as they are aimed more towards a zerg/support build), and if they run into that situation and lose, they’ll nearly instantly blame the builds they go against instead of even just honestly saying “Well I’m not really set up for this fight, so it was going to be really tough”.

You mentioned Warriors, Mesmers, and Thieves. Engis have a good roaming build as far as I’ve seen as well. Rangers do as well, even if people refuse to acknowledge it. I’ve seen Eles do well roaming. Guardians have a really strong, high-pressure roaming build that I’ve only occasionally run into. Necros can also roam if built for it, though 1vXing as Condi is generally more straightfoward than as Power.

So that’s… all the classes. I’ve seen every class carve out a build for roaming that works. In my opinion, that’s good enough for a style of play that is more for enjoyment (though if you actually roam with a purpose, you’re probably capping camps/killing yaks as well, which does contribute to the score as well. Just not as visibly as a zerg taking keeps).

@oZii: I’m a Power Necro, and I’ve run the +40% duration food since I ran into a Warrior months ago fully decked out for -% duration, including the food. My chill/cripple/immob would land for a split second then be gone. It was the most infuriating thing to have to control the pace of a fight with these conditions and they passively won’t stick. Basically what Overkillengine is true: if you DO run into someone decking in -% duration on something like a Power Necro, it’s going to be a passively bad time. And I take issue with that. The game is already supersaturated with passivity in my opinion, which I judge more harshly because of it’s potential in the active space.

And maybe the reason everyone complains about conditions so much in small-scale WvW is because they aren’t running -40% duration food. As much as people claim that condis can be dealt with via clears (including myself), you have to decide which ones to just muscle through. Muscling through something that lasts 40% longer is that much more difficult to deal with.

100 Power/70 Ferocity is peanuts in the face of an extra sequence of attacks or the thousands of damage I’m avoiding by being relieved of pressure for that much longer with my condi food.

The reason I’m arguing against the food is because I don’t ever think about using anything other than the +40% duration food. If someone brings 100 Power/70 Ferocity, whatever. They can enjoy that bit of damage. If someone brings -40% duration food, I better have +40%, or things are going to be unnecessarily rough.

Maybe that’s limited to my build, but that’s the perspective I’m arguing from. I generally find utility options better than strict stat upgrades in PvP anyway, but that could also be because I don’t build with one ultraspike in mind and use mobility to dodge around until my ultraspike is back up.

So then you bring -40% cond food… just like i should, according to you, adept my build to deal with Gank-builds.
Wouldnt you agree that being pushed to a certain foodbuff is not anywhere near as bad, or as big of a commitment, as being pushed to certain builds and playstyles?

I cannot ever consider running certain characters in full zerker, ill die in the blink of an eye to these ganks. Not running -40% cond. food has never ever made that much of an impact for me, ever.

Terrahero.9358:

So then you bring -40% cond food… just like i should, according to you, adept my build to deal with Gank-builds.
Wouldnt you agree that being pushed to a certain foodbuff is not anywhere near as bad, or as big of a commitment, as being pushed to certain builds and playstyles?

I cannot ever consider running certain characters in full zerker, ill die in the blink of an eye to these ganks. Not running -40% cond. food has never ever made that much of an impact for me, ever.

Yes, you could bring -40% condi duration food to counter-act +40% condi duration food. You could also bring -1000% condi duration food to counteract +1000% condi duration food. That doesn’t mean it’s fine.

If you want to succeed in small-scale roaming, you have to consider several situations and build accordingly without knowing what you’re going to fight up against next. If you don’t care about small-scale roaming, then what does it matter if you’re caught out by a ganker? You don’t care to succeed in that scenario. If you really care about a certain playstyle, then odds are you can make it work pretty well unless you completely ignore mechanics that you need to deal with when making your build.

But explain why they thought it appropriate to give condition-specific food +15% duration, but then add +40% duration food for all conditions? Did they create all those foods as a joke in preparation for the 40% punchline? “Lol j/k, don’t worry about specializing your build, just have a bunch of duration for all conditions!” Then everyone cheers and is content that they can put less thought into the game.

It just feels out of place to me. You anecdotally claim that not running -40% duration food has never made much of an impact for you. Maybe you hate conditions so much that all of your builds are very anti-condition, I don’t know. You didn’t give any context, you just want me to take your word for it, which is difficult because taking +40% duration food made an enormous impact for me.

And if it isn’t that impactful, then why not bump it down to 10%, since it doesn’t really apply to you? What are you getting out of the 40% food existing?

Cogbyrn.7283:

But explain why they thought it appropriate to give condition-specific food +15% duration, but then add +40% duration food for all conditions? Did they create all those foods as a joke in preparation for the 40% punchline? “Lol j/k, don’t worry about specializing your build, just have a bunch of duration for all conditions!” Then everyone cheers and is content that they can put less thought into the game.

It has already been explained. Posted by a dev, and repeated in a hundred other threads there after. It doesn’t bode well, to be honest, that you have to ask us how or why aspect of the game works as it does, yet you care to tell us how it needs to change.

Cogbyrn.7283:

It just feels out of place to me. You anecdotally claim that not running -40% duration food has never made much of an impact for you. Maybe you hate conditions so much that all of your builds are very anti-condition, I don’t know. You didn’t give any context, you just want me to take your word for it, which is difficult because taking +40% duration food made an enormous impact for me.

You expect “how it feels to you” , as you stated it anyway, to be an acceptable justification. Yet if someone else relates there experience, you literally accuse them of making “anecdotally claim”. What makes your “feeling” or “experience” more relavent then any one elses?

Cogbyrn.7283:

100 Power/70 Ferocity is peanuts in the face of an extra sequence of attacks or the thousands of damage I’m avoiding by being relieved of pressure for that much longer with my condi food.

It is peanuts? prove it. I just read a nice right up on the engineer forums that broke down the meta condi build and a meta power build. All of the skills that did direct condition damage were only increased by the rare veggie pizza in the 9% area while the direct damage build the plate of truffle steak increased the damage in the 11% ish range. Those are evidence that are provable, reasonable, hard to dispute.

Cogbyrn.7283:

The reason I’m arguing against the food is because I don’t ever think about using anything other than the +40% duration food. If someone brings 100 Power/70 Ferocity, whatever. They can enjoy that bit of damage. If someone brings -40% duration food, I better have +40%, or things are going to be unnecessarily rough.

So they need to redesign aspects of the game because you refuse to diversify, or are stuck in a rut. Because you, for what ever reason, do not use anything else? Seriously, what else do you use 100% of the time? Clearly you believe your personal refusal to use or not use something is all Anet need to redesign it. That is not a very fair balancing process.

Personally, I generally don’t roll with -condition duration food but rather mango pies.. and I’ve never found condition damage itself to be too over the top in WvW in most cases, solo roaming or small group roaming. The problem I have with the +40% duration food is the extensions it gives to soft CC and conditions that hinder my ability to counter attack and utilize active defenses; immobilize, chill and cripple and confusion. I’d think +40% duration would be totally fine if it was only applied to direct damaging conditions; bleed, burn, poison, torment. Hell maybe even throw confusion in there, because without the added extended soft CC support it wouldn’t be half as annoying to deal with.

Now, I’d much prefer if these “disabling conditions”; cripple, chill, immobilize and maybe hard CC stun duration were grouped together thrown into a different food to make players make a tougher choice between increasing damage or increasing control capability, only with a much smaller +duration.. probably along the lines of 15-20%.

heres my take on it:

there are 3 situations that commonly occur in my roaming experiences when i run into an enemy condi build (ignoring player skill for the most part).

• he has pizza, i have nothing. i die.
• he has nothing, i have lemongrass. he dies.
• we both have opposite foods. pretty good fight most of the time.

thats how i know these foods are OP, cuz the food dictates the winner of the fights.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Yes, you could bring -40% condi duration food to counter-act +40% condi duration food. You could also bring -1000% condi duration food to counteract +1000% condi duration food. That doesn’t mean it’s fine.

Aaaannnndddd we’ve fallen into using hyperbole to back up a rubbish argument.

insanemaniac.2456:

heres my take on it:

there are 3 situations that commonly occur in my roaming experiences when i run into an enemy condi build (ignoring player skill for the most part).

• he has pizza, i have nothing. i die.
• he has nothing, i have lemongrass. he dies.
• we both have opposite foods. pretty good fight most of the time.

thats how i know these foods are OP, cuz the food dictates the winner of the fights.

That just tells me that you’re not running enough anti-cond and are using the -40% food to help make up for that. That’s fine, but don’t blame the +40% food for conditions being the problem. If you fight anyone that doesn’t have food and you do, you’ll have a large advantage regardless of the builds involved.

Overall the +40% food makes such little difference in anything that matters.

Large scale fights =’s power or get out.

Small scale is more split, but still more power based by and large. Taking more time for your dot’s to tick gives your opponent more chance to get help from friends/run to guards/etc.

Even with the +40% foods, condition builds are still solidly in the minority in WvW. If conds with +40% were so OP, this wouldn’t be the case.

People need to quit blaming this food for their own decisions to not bringing enough anti-condition stuffs. Seriously, just carry the -40% food on you and pop it if it’s a condition user, the rest of the time use your + power ~2 second kill gank food (or whatever).

As others have mentioned, why not just remove both +/- foods?

No point in running the -condition duration food if the +duration food no longer exists, and then the skills and times are now balanced in eachother as they are designed to be in competitive environments like sPvP.

Duration makes little difference in PvE because the durations of the skills are intended to be a certain way such that condition damage is regulated to a certain amount of uptime/stacks for balancing purposes. Reliance on this food for PvE content is silly and unjust, and in the case of dungeons, is arguably useless because of the condition stack cap on bosses/monsters.

DeceiverX.8361:

As others have mentioned, why not just remove both +/- foods?

Because the foods compliment different builds. The food that condition damage directly adds much less damage then food that adds power, because they scale differently. That is just one of the reasons we have duration foods.

DeceiverX.8361:

No point in running the -condition duration food if the +duration food no longer exists, and then the skills and times are now balanced in eachother as they are designed to be in competitive environments like sPvP.

sPvP and WvW are two very different beast. Skill and individual competitive play is no where near as relevant as sPvP. Group coordination and large team effort reign here, not 1v1, 1v2, 2v1, or 2v2.

DeceiverX.8361:

Duration makes little difference in PvE because the durations of the skills are intended to be a certain way such that condition damage is regulated to a certain amount of uptime/stacks for balancing purposes. Reliance on this food for PvE content is silly and unjust, and in the case of dungeons, is arguably useless because of the condition stack cap on bosses/monsters.

This is completely inaccurate actually. Bosses with unshakable cut vulnerability, weakness, and blind to 50% duration. It takes the investment of duration food plus traits or weapons with duration on them just to keep the regular duration of those benefits up.

As well, you suggested that
“condition damage is regulated to a certain amount of uptime/stacks for balancing purposes”
But that is in fact no where near the truth. The devs have been very clear to stat that the reasons there is a stack cap is a systems limitation. The reason up time of duration stacking is limited based on system limitations. The system in place for both of those has absolutely nothing to do with balance what so ever.

@Cogbyrn A power necro is definitely not unreasonable to run +condition duration food. Most people probably think your a condi necro anyway. I know power necro’s run that food so I can see why you would take it over the power/precision or another type of food.

DeceiverX.8361:

As others have mentioned, why not just remove both +/- foods?

That would result in anyone fighting against a condition user having the equivalent of running the -40% food. All condition builds right now already heavily rely on the +40% food and are likely running with it at all times. Power builds running the -40% food are much more rare, despite giving a huge advantage over the condition build.

In fact, the -40% food overpowers the +40% food. Take a 4 second bleed and add 40% to the duration. Now we’re at a 5.6 second bleed, or 1 extra tick. Remove 40% of that 5.6 and we are at 3.36 seconds and have actually removed 2 ticks of bleeding. That’s 1 less tick than the base bleed.

So you might argue that this example is a good reason to remove both foods, but condition builds rely too heavily on the 40% food and are still nowhere near the top. Where were they in the ToL? Where are they in groups larger than 5 in WvW? Where are they in dungeons or fractals? Removing this food will push condition builds even further into the ground.

If anything is overpowered, it’s the -40% food. Not only does it negate the +40% food, it continues to remove an additional tick from second-based damaging conditions. The -40% food is objectively better than the +40% food.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Yes, you could bring -40% condi duration food to counter-act +40% condi duration food. You could also bring -1000% condi duration food to counteract +1000% condi duration food. That doesn’t mean it’s fine.

This is just silly… Extreme exegeration, that is litteraly not even possible as condition durations cap out at 100%.

If you want to succeed in small-scale roaming, you have to consider several situations and build accordingly without knowing what you’re going to fight up against next. If you don’t care about small-scale roaming, then what does it matter if you’re caught out by a ganker? You don’t care to succeed in that scenario. If you really care about a certain playstyle, then odds are you can make it work pretty well unless you completely ignore mechanics that you need to deal with when making your build.

Again, how is this different from running -% condition food? You struggle in small scale fights against conditions, but dont want to make any sacrifices in your builds, then compensate with foodbuffs.
Foodbuffs are practically part of your build now a days.

Agian, you seem fine with players having to change up their utility skills or traits, but having to go with a certain foodbuff is a big no-no?

But explain why they thought it appropriate to give condition-specific food +15% duration, but then add +40% duration food for all conditions? Did they create all those foods as a joke in preparation for the 40% punchline? “Lol j/k, don’t worry about specializing your build, just have a bunch of duration for all conditions!” Then everyone cheers and is content that they can put less thought into the game.

They did the same with other foodbuffs aswell. There are simply better and worst foodbuffs. Fire Veggie Chili is a mere 50ferocity, a lv80 foodbuff. So should we bring down all other stat based foodbuffs to this level?
Instead of suggesting that 15% specific condition is the baseline, im countering and saying its a joke, just like the Fire Veggie chili.

Or what abot Bowl of Truffle Sautee? 70 ferocity, ow and you get 1x might for 10sec on kill. What a laugh… And there are more like these, its not a big secret.

It just feels out of place to me. You anecdotally claim that not running -40% duration food has never made much of an impact for you. Maybe you hate conditions so much that all of your builds are very anti-condition, I don’t know. You didn’t give any context, you just want me to take your word for it, which is difficult because taking +40% duration food made an enormous impact for me.

I dont run -cond. on my Ele because it natively has a high condition removal, i dont run it on my Necro because it has a natively high condition removal, i dont run it on my Thief because it has a natively high condition removal.

I dont run it on my Ranger, because im build for distance and keeping my distance, and a single utility skill is all i need in form of condition clear.

I dont run -cond. on my engineer either, and i only have Antidote (1cond/15sec cd) as condition removal. I dont know why, but conditions still never bother me.

I also dont use -cond. food on my Warrior, because my condition removal is fantastic and on-demand with just one single trait. I dont really play Mesmer or Guardian.

There, all these professions and none specifically build to counter conditions. And yet its still never a problem. I dont run -cond. food because its a waste, i dont need it. I’d rather take extra ferocity/power/precision food.
And before you ask, i mostly roam. Either solo or with a small group of friends. And none of them use -cond. food either. Pretty much for the same reasons as ive given.

And if it isn’t that impactful, then why not bump it down to 10%, since it doesn’t really apply to you? What are you getting out of the 40% food existing?

Hah, dont you turn this argument around. Now i should come up with a reason why not to change it? How about, because its not needed?

So the best defense of the 15% foods existing in such a poor state compared to a 40% global food is that they are jokes?

Really? That’s just absurd. Why not say that Chewbacca lives on Endor then?

I dont run -cond. on my Ele because it natively has a high condition removal, i dont run it on my Necro because it has a natively high condition removal, i dont run it on my Thief because it has a natively high condition removal.

I dont run it on my Ranger, because im build for distance and keeping my distance, and a single utility skill is all i need in form of condition clear.

I dont run -cond. on my engineer either, and i only have Antidote (1cond/15sec cd) as condition removal. I dont know why, but conditions still never bother me.

I also dont use -cond. food on my Warrior, because my condition removal is fantastic and on-demand with just one single trait. I dont really play Mesmer or Guardian.

There, all these professions and none specifically build to counter conditions. And yet its still never a problem. I dont run -cond. food because its a waste, i dont need it. I’d rather take extra ferocity/power/precision food.
And before you ask, i mostly roam. Either solo or with a small group of friends. And none of them use -cond. food either. Pretty much for the same reasons as ive given.

So you chose to play classes and play-styles that happen to minimize conditions against you and thus desire you may have for -condition food. Gratz, have a cookie? That actually illustrates why the foods need nerfed, because if someone else did not make the same choices you did and did not run the -duration food, they greatly increase their chances of loss the moment they encounter someone using a build that maximizes enough effects with +duration food.

That’s less viable build variety out there thanks to that.

On of the things I run is a power Necro right now. I don’t use the -duration food because my particular build already gives me enough tools to handle even a + 40% duration user. I recognize that my particular build allows me the latitude to not feel forced into using at least one particular consumable. Which is great and all, but there’s more people in this game than just me.

And I still have yet to see a good reason anyone has offered for some foods to be 15% to some conditions while a 40% to all exists. Consider them a build choice if you like, hell go right ahead that just makes the case stronger for them to be EQUITABLE build choices which they are obviously not. Not even the power foods compare favorably unless your build has little to no CC/control conditions or has abundant anti condition tools. Hell, I don’t remember the last time I ever saw anyone run Orrian Truffle Soup for condition builds.

Aberrant.6749:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Yes, you could bring -40% condi duration food to counter-act +40% condi duration food. You could also bring -1000% condi duration food to counteract +1000% condi duration food. That doesn’t mean it’s fine.

Aaaannnndddd we’ve fallen into using hyperbole to back up a rubbish argument.

insanemaniac.2456:

heres my take on it:

there are 3 situations that commonly occur in my roaming experiences when i run into an enemy condi build (ignoring player skill for the most part).

• he has pizza, i have nothing. i die.
• he has nothing, i have lemongrass. he dies.
• we both have opposite foods. pretty good fight most of the time.

thats how i know these foods are OP, cuz the food dictates the winner of the fights.

That just tells me that you’re not running enough anti-cond and are using the -40% food to help make up for that. That’s fine, but don’t blame the +40% food for conditions being the problem. If you fight anyone that doesn’t have food and you do, you’ll have a large advantage regardless of the builds involved.

Overall the +40% food makes such little difference in anything that matters.

Large scale fights =’s power or get out.

Small scale is more split, but still more power based by and large. Taking more time for your dot’s to tick gives your opponent more chance to get help from friends/run to guards/etc.

Even with the +40% foods, condition builds are still solidly in the minority in WvW. If conds with +40% were so OP, this wouldn’t be the case.

People need to quit blaming this food for their own decisions to not bringing enough anti-condition stuffs. Seriously, just carry the -40% food on you and pop it if it’s a condition user, the rest of the time use your + power ~2 second kill gank food (or whatever).

thanks for the lecture on how to play that i didnt need. engis do actually lack condi removals unless you run hgh, and slotting generosity is the tipping point for me for being able to handle condi builds.

so ill just go ahead and blame the food. and there is no 2 sec gank food for me, i run a bruiser build, not a glass cannon.

You guys can come up with whatever distorted arguments you want to prove your point but it doesnt change the fact that things like this are the reasons a huge amount of the population of the game ignores wvw, and from talking to people I bet (but cant prove) that a majority of non forum posting players would agree.

Spvp players have to set up an entire build to get 40% condi duration, and you tell them they can spend 30+ silver (which is a lot for some, though thats not the issue) per 30 minutes to get that just from food, and theyll just laugh.

I like having choices makes the game more fun, so I wouldn’t want to remove food

My guess is making these foods more like + and – 20% is better than the current values

It’s pretty clear from adding the floaters and making changes like the confusion nerf a year ago that lots of players (especially new players) have challenges understanding what the conditions do, what impact they are having, and strategies for dealing with them.

The thread isn’t specifically about making the new player experience better, but you can see Anet factoring this into the changes they are willing to make. So reducing the durations in wvw encounters is going to help a bit. It’s hard to say if this is really enough to make a big difference for newer players in wvw. I think an experienced player with a condi build is still going to mop up a new player in wvw even with food that has only 20% duration.

Sizer.5632:

You guys can come up with whatever distorted arguments you want to prove your point but it doesnt change the fact that things like this are the reasons a huge amount of the population of the game ignores wvw, and from talking to people I bet (but cant prove) that a majority of non forum posting players would agree.

Spvp players have to set up an entire build to get 40% condi duration, and you tell them they can spend 30+ silver (which is a lot for some, though thats not the issue) per 30 minutes to get that just from food, and theyll just laugh.

They might make the claim they ignore WvW for balance debates but a large part of the population plays WvW.

Overkillengine.6084:

So you chose to play classes and play-styles that happen to minimize conditions against you and thus desire you may have for -condition food.

I see you didnt read what i wrote properly. Allow me to direct your attention at There, all these professions and none specifically build to counter conditions.

I dont build any of my characters to specifically counter conditions. I dont completely neglect my defense against Condition-damage, as a lot of players seem to.
Just like i dont completely neglect my damage against Power-damage either, something people seem to be far more understanding of for some strange reason.

Tell people to get some Toughness, a trait or a utility skill to deal with instagib builds and everybody thinks its reasonable.
Tell them they should get Vitality, a trait or a utility skill to deal with Conditions and people scream bloody murder and demand Condition builds get gutted.

Sizer.5632:

You guys can come up with whatever distorted arguments you want to prove your point but it doesnt change the fact that things like this are the reasons a huge amount of the population of the game ignores wvw, and from talking to people I bet (but cant prove) that a majority of non forum posting players would agree.

Strange. My servers 120+ man queue’s on all 4 maps regularly, seem to disagree with you. I cannot imagine how anyone could come to the conclusion that a single food ruins any new players experience in any way. My guilds seem to have a consistent influx of 2-3 new players a week. Seems to me, a lack of players with a good attitude and willingness to educate them on the facts of the situation would be much more of problematic then anything else.

Sizer.5632:

Spvp players have to set up an entire build to get 40% condi duration, and you tell them they can spend 30+ silver (which is a lot for some, though thats not the issue) per 30 minutes to get that just from food, and theyll just laugh.

They do? My experience suggest other wise. My guild (well it is actually 3 guilds but we cannot all fit into one or two) all play sPvP, and I nevr hear any such complain from them.

Sizer.5632:

You guys can come up with whatever distorted arguments you want to prove your point but it doesnt change the fact that things like this are the reasons a huge amount of the population of the game ignores wvw, and from talking to people I bet (but cant prove) that a majority of non forum posting players would agree.

Spvp players have to set up an entire build to get 40% condi duration, and you tell them they can spend 30+ silver (which is a lot for some, though thats not the issue) per 30 minutes to get that just from food, and theyll just laugh.

+40% condi duration food is not the reason “a huge amount of the population of the game ignores wvw”. How can you even make this claim with a straight face? You absolutely pulled that out of your butt.

While roaming in WvW, people are stubborn. They don’t want to build up a bit of defense against condition damage, like they will for direct damage. Or they want to build full offense and wonder why they have trouble when they run into builds that were designed with attrition and outlast in mind.

Even ignoring that, WvW is not designed around 1v1 or 2v2 battles. It is a place for large scale battles with a hundred different elements that effect the outcome. And even with the +40% food as is, we see condition damage lagging far behind in anything that isn’t small scale roaming. Even necromancers, the so called kings of conditions, run power well builds in group fights.

So you want to remove the +40% condi duration food from the game because you don’t want to be bothered to understand how to deal with conditions in a game mode that the devs have said they don’t balance around. A change that will make conditions even worse than they already are in WvW group fights and PvE.

You aren’t arguing for balance here.

randomly.6395:

DeceiverX.8361:

As others have mentioned, why not just remove both +/- foods?

That would result in anyone fighting against a condition user having the equivalent of running the -40% food. All condition builds right now already heavily rely on the +40% food and are likely running with it at all times. Power builds running the -40% food are much more rare, despite giving a huge advantage over the condition build.

In fact, the -40% food overpowers the +40% food. Take a 4 second bleed and add 40% to the duration. Now we’re at a 5.6 second bleed, or 1 extra tick. Remove 40% of that 5.6 and we are at 3.36 seconds and have actually removed 2 ticks of bleeding. That’s 1 less tick than the base bleed.

So you might argue that this example is a good reason to remove both foods, but condition builds rely too heavily on the 40% food and are still nowhere near the top. Where were they in the ToL? Where are they in groups larger than 5 in WvW? Where are they in dungeons or fractals? Removing this food will push condition builds even further into the ground.

If anything is overpowered, it’s the -40% food. Not only does it negate the +40% food, it continues to remove an additional tick from second-based damaging conditions. The -40% food is objectively better than the +40% food.

No, that would result in the current situation of players neither using + 40% or -40% food, which as you quite literally just demonstrated, proves to make conditions more effective than right now. That 4 seconds now STAYS as four ticks and nothing can be done in regards to food to counteract that. This makes condition damage more consistent across the board and now lets players actually invest in condition damage modifiers rather than just duration ones. The bottom line is that the only reason 40% food is used is because it’s the best food for any condition build.

That’s precisely why I’m suggesting both be removed. The food is over-the-top against anyone not running the -condition duration food, and the -duration food too easily shuts down condition builds as a whole.

And that’s a whole separate issue. Conditions in general need fixing. They’re an extreme which either gets totally shut down by builds with a lot of cleanse, or imply have no counter whatsoever. They ignore toughness and still keep damaging through heals. Power builds are dominant in zergs because AoE cleanses can be performed on everyone in the zerg, and because CC-based builds are ones which aren’t condition-based. If this wasn’t the case, conditions would be the only WvW builds to play and that’s just absolute fact. The same is said about condi bunker’s potency in sPvP, where food isn’t even allowed.

And in PvE? They’re weak only because of stack capping. That has nothing to do with the potency in PvP environments, and exists only because of ANet’s irresponsibility of handling mobs and bosses to be incapable of receiving more than one form of condition stack. Doing this on players is just not feasible as there would subsequently be too many indicators, and cleanses would need to remove all instances of one type of condition.

The fact of the matter pertaining to condition builds, however, is that they absolutely should not be dealing more or even similar damage to berserker-based builds. The fact that a player can maximize his damage throughput by building into both forms of defenses and then traiting into what are usually defensive lines should demonstrate that condition builds should be incapable of reaching DPS and burst values accrued by regular damage/berserker builds. Not to mention 40% food also keeps players in combat for extensive periods of time; ultimately allowing for condition-built characters to enter a fight, apply a long-duration condition after the initial bomb to force a cleanse, walk away, reset the fight on their end, and then walk back to the other player still in combat.

The reason the 40% food is used is because it is the only food that matters to use for a condition build. Direct damage builds can grab much more variety of foods and still put out good damage. If a zerker thief grabs precision/vitality food thats fine and he doesn’t have to grab power/ferocity food. A guardian can roll dps shouts with 6 virtues and grab boon duration food if he really wants. If you sat down with each popular “roaming” build and actually did some calculations on effective power of what would give them the best increase in damage you would find a best food for every build. That is if what your focusing on is damage if you want survivability then you grab that food like vit/tough.

Condition builds don’t put out damage values close to zerker. We are talking full zerker here. A condi build doesn’t do that not even close and it’s going to be many more buttons pressed to do that to maximize ttk on a condi build then a zerk build. Also it depends on what your fighting it will take a condi build much longer to chew through the warriors hp pool then it will a thief. It’s not as cut and dry if condi did damage like zerk it would be ok to bring it in the PvE meta builds and the PvE guilds would have theorycrafted the condition builds.

If the debate is to remove either condition duration food then it should be remove all the consumables from WvW. If you removed just the +/- foods then there will still be a best food to run in your condition build. Best will always be a thing.

If it were +30% food, I would still be running it.

If it were +20% food, I would still be running it.

I run givers weapons and 6 points into my condition duration line, because my base line conditions with a few exceptions don’t last very long at all.

Unlike Necros, whose fear builds are difficult for me to manage, Engineers don’t have condition extending traits. Warriors have a +50% bleed duration on already higher duration bleeds, that fire trap that’s the size of a house that covers most points stacks quite a bit of burning.

I get 3 seconds every ten, baseline. Extend it to +100% extra duration, that’s 6 ticks at ~600 per tick, for about 3600 damage… assuming it’s not cleansed, removed, or otherwise. When you hammer train me into hurrdruurrdddblluuurrdddssss you think your food is adding an extra 720 points of damage? Riiiight.

I run the food despite the lowest condition removal per minute of any class, difficult to manage stun breaks, microscopic amounts of stability, and a truly depressing lack of weapon options.

My build is definitely cheesy in wvw, I will admit it, but it’s not because the food is OP, the amount of cleanses negate any of my damage in large scale fights. The build is cheesy because it’s really the only option for my class, to be competitive with all the REST of the cheese roaming wvw.

Honestly, except for some exceptional players running Static Discharge, you see only condi/bunkers, and some hybrids, period.

Is the food OP? Probably. But if they want to integrate some of that duration INTO our actual skills and weapons, so we don’t HAVE to run it, that’s be great. And bringing up cleansing options for the classes that are really lacking it would be a nice counter to the conditions mini-game everyone is complaining about.

a) Stop balancing for wvwvw, its a worthless format that should not be taken into account for balance
b) Learn to counterplay, there is a warrior or necro with cc, melandru rune set, there is a +40% cond dur on the enemy, get your -40%, enemy has a power build, use blocks and evade moves

Andele.1306:

a) Stop balancing for wvwvw, its a worthless format that should not be taken into account for balance

Interesting, I’d say the exact same thing, with one addition, about sPvP:
sPvP cannot be balanced, the teams are too small. That is, in theory hotjoin could be balanced, given map changes, queueing changes, support for proper pro-play, everything. I thiiiink it could be balanced. tPvP, nope, too small.

And as it cannot be balanced, I don’t see the reason why time should be spent trying to give the illusion of balance, instead of using it more productively on formats which can at least be balanced.

Andele.1306:

Stop balancing for wvwvw, its a worthless format that should not be taken into account for balance

And stop balancing game around sPvP (few maps and one game mode).

pierwola.9602:

And stop balancing game around sPvP (few maps and one game mode).

Also from all we know it’s really a minority game mode, not worth screwing the majority of the playerbase over for (since it’s balance demands often run opposed to the balance needs of WvW or PvE).

+ / – 40% condition duration food is pretty absurd. It gives more condition duration than investing 6 points into a traitline (+300 bonus to non duration stats). If a food gave +400 power, I’m sure it would be very popular, maybe even the most popular food, and it would not be reasonable for everyone who’s not running the +400 power food to run a +400 toughness food to counter this. I would say that these foods are OP and I do not use that term lightly.

That being said, if they removed it, condition builds might begin to disappear in the shadow of power builds. I think that reducing these foods to +/- 20% a is very reasonable compromise. The food would still be very strong, but not so ridiculously strong that one needs to run it’s exact opposite to counter it.

Cecilia.5179:

+ / – 40% condition duration food is pretty absurd. It gives more condition duration than investing 6 points into a traitline (+300 bonus to non duration stats). If a food gave +400 power, I’m sure it would be very popular, maybe even the most popular food, and it would not be reasonable for everyone who’s not running the +400 power food to run a +400 toughness food to counter this. I would say that these foods are OP and I do not use that term lightly.

That being said, if they removed it, condition builds might begin to disappear in the shadow of power builds. I think that reducing these foods to +/- 20% a is very reasonable compromise. The food would still be very strong, but not so ridiculously strong that one needs to run it’s exact opposite to counter it.

+400 power is not countered by +400 toughness and +400 any stat doesn’t equal +40% condition duration. They are totally different stats that act differently.

If condition damage was front loaded damage then you could make that comparison. Even -40% condition duration food gives you 70 vitality to go with it which helps against direct and condition builds.

oZii.2864:

Cecilia.5179:

+ / – 40% condition duration food is pretty absurd. It gives more condition duration than investing 6 points into a traitline (+300 bonus to non duration stats). If a food gave +400 power, I’m sure it would be very popular, maybe even the most popular food, and it would not be reasonable for everyone who’s not running the +400 power food to run a +400 toughness food to counter this. I would say that these foods are OP and I do not use that term lightly.

That being said, if they removed it, condition builds might begin to disappear in the shadow of power builds. I think that reducing these foods to +/- 20% a is very reasonable compromise. The food would still be very strong, but not so ridiculously strong that one needs to run it’s exact opposite to counter it.

+400 power is not countered by +400 toughness and +400 any stat doesn’t equal +40% condition duration. They are totally different stats that act differently.

If condition damage was front loaded damage then you could make that comparison. Even -40% condition duration food gives you 70 vitality to go with it which helps against direct and condition builds.

I was aiming for the comparison of the traitlines, where 30% condition duration and +300 to a stat are achieved with the same investment and therefore, in a way, equal (Power and Toughness may not directly counter each other, but there are no stats I can think of that directly counter each other like Condition Duration). By comparison, It makes +40% condition duration look very strong, but if you insist that the comparison is invalid, scratch it and focus on the proposal. It’s not hard to prove what a +40% condi duration boost brings to the table. Especially what you compare it with any other food. I think +20% is far more reasonable for a food effect.

Cecilia.5179:

oZii.2864:

Cecilia.5179:

+ / – 40% condition duration food is pretty absurd. It gives more condition duration than investing 6 points into a traitline (+300 bonus to non duration stats). If a food gave +400 power, I’m sure it would be very popular, maybe even the most popular food, and it would not be reasonable for everyone who’s not running the +400 power food to run a +400 toughness food to counter this. I would say that these foods are OP and I do not use that term lightly.

That being said, if they removed it, condition builds might begin to disappear in the shadow of power builds. I think that reducing these foods to +/- 20% a is very reasonable compromise. The food would still be very strong, but not so ridiculously strong that one needs to run it’s exact opposite to counter it.

+400 power is not countered by +400 toughness and +400 any stat doesn’t equal +40% condition duration. They are totally different stats that act differently.

If condition damage was front loaded damage then you could make that comparison. Even -40% condition duration food gives you 70 vitality to go with it which helps against direct and condition builds.

I was aiming for the comparison of the traitlines, where 30% condition duration and +300 to a stat are achieved with the same investment and therefore, in a way, equal (Power and Toughness may not directly counter each other, but there are no stats I can think of that directly counter each other like Condition Duration). By comparison, It makes +40% condition duration look very strong, but if you insist that the comparison is invalid, scratch it and focus on the proposal. It’s not hard to prove what a +40% condi duration boost brings to the table. Especially what you compare it with any other food. I think +20% is far more reasonable for a food effect.

I agree. You absolutely right. They need to change the trait lines value so that every point invested adds 10% duration.

This is a great suggestion Cecelia and I completely agree. This would be a great way to reasonably change the food to 20% duration.

The only question is, since in other threads in which the damage for ferocity, power, precision, condition damage, and condition duration food had been broken down to its maximum damage per second for each profession, what do you do with the fact that the food will give the least benefit compared to all other foods by 30%-50% value?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Cecilia.5179:

oZii.2864:

Cecilia.5179:

+ / – 40% condition duration food is pretty absurd. It gives more condition duration than investing 6 points into a traitline (+300 bonus to non duration stats). If a food gave +400 power, I’m sure it would be very popular, maybe even the most popular food, and it would not be reasonable for everyone who’s not running the +400 power food to run a +400 toughness food to counter this. I would say that these foods are OP and I do not use that term lightly.

That being said, if they removed it, condition builds might begin to disappear in the shadow of power builds. I think that reducing these foods to +/- 20% a is very reasonable compromise. The food would still be very strong, but not so ridiculously strong that one needs to run it’s exact opposite to counter it.

+400 power is not countered by +400 toughness and +400 any stat doesn’t equal +40% condition duration. They are totally different stats that act differently.

If condition damage was front loaded damage then you could make that comparison. Even -40% condition duration food gives you 70 vitality to go with it which helps against direct and condition builds.

I was aiming for the comparison of the traitlines, where 30% condition duration and +300 to a stat are achieved with the same investment and therefore, in a way, equal (Power and Toughness may not directly counter each other, but there are no stats I can think of that directly counter each other like Condition Duration). By comparison, It makes +40% condition duration look very strong, but if you insist that the comparison is invalid, scratch it and focus on the proposal. It’s not hard to prove what a +40% condi duration boost brings to the table. Especially what you compare it with any other food. I think +20% is far more reasonable for a food effect.

I agree. You absolutely right. They need to change the trait lines value so that every point invested adds 10% duration.

This is a great suggestion Cecelia and I completely agree. This would be a great way to reasonably change the food to 20% duration.

The only question is, since in other threads in which the damage for ferocity, power, precision, condition damage, and condition duration food had been broken down to its maximum damage per second for each profession, what do you do with the fact that the food will give the least benefit compared to all other foods by 30%-50% value?

Condition duration already increases by 10% for each tier (Adept, Master, Grandmaster) when you invest into the line that boosts it. Condition duration food offers more than just dps. At least half of the conditions in the game do not deal damage and condition duration boosts boosts those conditions too. The food would still bring a good amount of utility on top of damage. It would also make other condition foods more appealing for those only interested in dps, adding more variation to food choices.

This is all speculation, however. For all we know, it could turn out completely different if condition duration food was nerfed. It could very well lose viability. In my opinion, it’s a little too viable right now and needs to be toned down.

Imagine if the boon duration food was 40%… That would make my ele pretty scary. There would be a lot of complaints to say the least.

Boon duration =/= Condition duration. Apples and oranges.

Power still does more damage than conds.

Power is still seen in far greater numbers than conditions in all game modes with or without this food.

If anything that shows that power needs a nerf or cond removal needs a nerf or conditions need a buff… or a combination of those.

What does each tier have to do with what he suggested?

You mention it could turn out very different. Do you mean similarly to how everyone complained about some “perceived” condition meta in PvP, yet in tournaments, almost no one uses conditions? Or do you mean different like the misconception that it some how magically adds a 40% damage boost when it doesnt? Or do you mean different as when broken down, the actual damage per second output is increased more with power food?

Wouldn’t basing a change on damage food be more beneficial if we base it on factual and comparable increase?

By the way. I am personally for separating this into two different foods. One for damaging and debuff conditions, and one for CC conditions.

coglin.1867:

What does each tier have to do with what he suggested?

You mention it could turn out very different. Do you mean similarly to how everyone complained about some “perceived” condition meta in PvP, yet in tournaments, almost no one uses conditions? Or do you mean different like the misconception that it some how magically adds a 40% damage boost when it doesnt? Or do you mean different as when broken down, the actual damage per second output is increased more with power food?

Wouldn’t basing a change on damage food be more beneficial if we base it on factual and comparable increase?

By the way. I am personally for separating this into two different foods. One for damaging and debuff conditions, and one for CC conditions.

I thought he was saying that you get 10% condition duration for each point you invest into the condition duration line, which it sort of already does, and I would not want to double that if that was what he meant. I was confused by what he was agreeing to and if he was agreeing at all or just being sarcastic.

When I said different, I meant it could become bad instead of balanced.

I was saying that condition duration food is not damage food because it is a combination of damage and utility due to the different types of conditions. They already have food that increases the duration of specific conditions, which, ironically, have a far shorter duration boost than the +% condition duration food (a meager 15%). Alongside reducing the condition duration food to 20%, they could have foods with 40% bonuses for the different types of conditions (Damaging, Debuffing, and Stun). I took a look at the different % change foods for condition duration and was surprised that there was a -40% stun duration food, but nothing similar to it in the +% condition duration foods.

Splitting it up isn’t at all bad idea, in fact I’d like to add to that by saying that along with there being boost for different types of conditions that are the original 40% (or maybe a little less), there would be a +20% condition duration food for those who want access to an increase in all of the conditions instead of just one type.

What would you do with the -% condition duration food?

Would anyone disagree with changing the +40% and -40% condition foods to only affect baseline damaging conditions (bleeding, burning, confusion, poison, torment)?

That at least address the soft CC issue that makes warriors near immune to soft CC and makes condition damage builds have very strong soft CC. And it doesn’t affect PvE.