Guild Wars 2

What they should do is have NO class that is the same tier for BOTH Health and Armor. So Change up the Warrior and Ele. My idea would be to move Warrior down a Tier in Health and the Ele up one in health.

It is pretty much just these 2 classes that have issues, on the opposite scale. The rest i think are fine the way they are.

oZii.2864:

Shadowfall.6543:

snip

Lets remove my example of Elementalist then. Lets apply this to thief, necromancer, mesmer. Is it that easy to just give everyone higher base vitality and armor? Nothing else needs to be balanced just bump everyone up to the same?

[…]

I am not advocating everyone having normalized HP and armor, I advocate everyone has an equal number of stats. Warriors may get a boost to HP and Armor for being warriors, but other classes would get bonuses elsewhere (i.e. Thieves may get bonus to precision and power, Necromancers to condition damage, etc.).

You are already making the point that some actives are very strong, and do you agree that some actives are worth more than 500 – 1100 stat points? Does death shroud = 200 more armor for the warrior + adrenaline?

Also for condition removal I think you will be surprised at how little a base elementalist has. switching attunements does nothing without traits. And Speaking of traits excluding them from calculations is favoring the warrior a bit since they have some of the strongest traits (i.e. all of the 20% weapon cool downs give something else).

Shadowfall.6543:

Andele.1306:

Nutshel.7264:

[snip]

I was just testing a concept on warrior, in about than 5 seconds they can burst for over 20k + (this is in PvP too, on a quick build) (Bolo, rush, 100b, switch to rifle and f1).

if the target does not have an ability to remove immobization they eat the entire combo (which can be facerolled as rush has a long range). not to mention this burst is on a 20 second cool down, ele’s burst is on a higher one.

The elementalist DPS is just never going to be leaps and bounds beyond other classes. And consider if those builds went up against each other what would happen, the elementalist would die (most do not have 20k+ HP, this warrior build had almost 20k).

What? That’s spreadsheet PvP. That requires no condition removal and no available block, blind, endurance, invuln, Stun/Daze, weakness, evade. Who doesn’t take condition removal and who doesn’t have any of those things available to them?

Have you seen what a S/D Ele can do in 5 seconds? Sure it’s gimmicky but so is what you described.

Any PvE guru will point out that a Warrior doesn’t out damage a Elementalist in theoretical damage the Warrior is just easier to perform but the Warrior is the pick up and play class of Guild Wars 2. You don’t see Lightning Hammer D/F or S/x Ele’s in PvP and you don’t see GS+Bola+Rifle Warriors either.

I have spent quite a bit of time playing the Elementalist (since beta actually). I have recently started playing a warrior, and I am able to do more damage, much more CC, and live longer then my elementalist. I have seen some very good elementalists out there and they are a force to be reckoned with, but that is because GW2 rewards player skill. Their class is not awesome, they are awesome players:

the key to being an elementalist is memorizing the other classes attack animations, intelligently mashing buttons, and a really solid internet connection. (Oh did I mention you Will need to remap your keyboard for that class).

If they played another class with that kind of skill they would probably also be unbeatable (think of what they could do as a Mesmer).

Guild wars 2 guru might state Elementalist have higher theoretical damage, but in competitive play (and even most PvE) an elementalist Cannot run beserkers, while a warrior can.

I was not originally a huge advocate that warriors were OPed, I figured it was the grass was really greener on the other side. I did not come to that conclusion until I started playing the class. So go ahead, I challenge you pick up the Elementalist, play them for a while. Make sure to get to at least lvl 30 – 40 when monsters start hitting back hard or just go into PvP.

However we are drifting far from the original topic that classes should not be balanced around Passives equaling active abilities. That is what the OP is trying to get at, if you want to continue the debate, feel free to start another post and I will debate you to your hearts content.

It doesn’t make sense to give warriors high health and high hp considering how much damage/condition removal and mobility they have.

If you’re saying ‘Well, since they’re a warrior they should have high health and armour’, then why can’t I say ‘Since i’m a mage class I should have a greater starting power stat, because I evidently should be doing more damage.’

No one in wvw/pvp can spec zerker on their Ele for obvious reasons, so ele damage is very mediocre.

There just doesn’t seem to be any trade off with certain classes.

phaeris.7604:

There just doesn’t seem to be any trade off with certain classes.

Until THIS is fixed, the game will be no where near balanced. Some classes just have it to easy. They can very easily build zerker thanks to the starter health and armor they have as well as the skills and other options the class has.

Warrior = Insane Regen, Mobility, Block, Immunities, CC
Mesmer = teleports, stealth, Clones, combat movement, Invul, blocks, CC
Thief = Insane Burst, Insane Stealth, Mobility solid regen, CC
Engineer = Blocks, Invul, regen, healing

Engineer isn’t as bad but like 99% of them all run conditions so can’t really tell seeing as Conditions itself is pretty much out of control.

Then you have the likes of Ele that has no choice but to build defensive to counter the low health and low armor and Necromancer while it has high health it lacks defences in its class having a 60second cool down protection and a class mechanic that gets worse the more people attack it

Shadowfall.6543:

/

I have spent quite a bit of time playing the Elementalist (since beta actually). I have recently started playing a warrior, and I am able to do more damage, much more CC, and live longer then my elementalist. I have seen some very good elementalists out there and they are a force to be reckoned with, but that is because GW2 rewards player skill. Their class is not awesome, they are awesome players:

the key to being an elementalist is memorizing the other classes attack animations, intelligently mashing buttons, and a really solid internet connection. (Oh did I mention you Will need to remap your keyboard for that class).

If they played another class with that kind of skill they would probably also be unbeatable (think of what they could do as a Mesmer).

Guild wars 2 guru might state Elementalist have higher theoretical damage, but in competitive play (and even most PvE) an elementalist Cannot run beserkers, while a warrior can.

I was not originally a huge advocate that warriors were OPed, I figured it was the grass was really greener on the other side. I did not come to that conclusion until I started playing the class. So go ahead, I challenge you pick up the Elementalist, play them for a while. Make sure to get to at least lvl 30 – 40 when monsters start hitting back hard or just go into PvP.

However we are drifting far from the original topic that classes should not be balanced around Passives equaling active abilities. That is what the OP is trying to get at, if you want to continue the debate, feel free to start another post and I will debate you to your hearts content.

You are confusing ease of application with more damage. I have a Elementalist at 80 and a Warrior at 80 and 4 other classes at 80. I play them all pretty well and think I understand them pretty well. Warrior isn’t more damage in PvP it’s easy damage. It’s “Hulk Smash” damage. Run around try to kill people with only a greatsword then run around and try to kill people with greatsword + sword/shield.

The OP’s personal preference is equalize HP between all the classes. I disagree that this fixes anything and makes the classes more similar then alike.

Ill look at the OP again but I didn’t see a suggested value for all the classes.

Edit: It looks like the OP is suggesting HP values all rise to warrior levels and armor stays at it’s current levels. Don’t agree I because mesmer and thief would then feel less inclined to grab survivability I run full zerker on my mesmer and thief because I can get away with it.

You bump my thief up to warrior base HP and instead of running the current 10/30/30/0/0 popular backstab build out in WvW I’ll run 30/30/10/0/0 because I can get away with less survivability. I just need the condition clears I have enough hp barrier combined with my active defenses to sustain me between heals of withdraw or hide in shadows. I don’t need faster recharge on my steal or acrobatics because I have more damage so they should be dead faster and since I have more hp I can mix it up with melee a little bit more.

More vitality means you have more room for error that is what it does. A guardian is already difficult to kill with it’s low HP give a guardian Warrior base HP no stat investment and see how hard they really become to kill when they dump as much as they can into healing power.

No one’s saying to change base health and just leave it at that.

The idea is that balancing class skills around wildly different base attributes is needlessly complex, and thus we should balance those passive attributes, leaving class skills to be balanced around each other. (I’d much prefer equalizing health and imposing a tradeoff between offense and defense in respect to armor, as I believe that would allow base stats to be ignored entirely.)

It is not a simple change by any means, and it’s absolutely true that such changes would negatively impact the uniqueness of the classes, but I do think it is effectively necessary for better class balance.

Snow.2048:

Hi all =)

Tl;dr Passive = Passive; Active = active. Don’t balance to achieve active = active while passive =/= passive. Base stats are a relic from different game modes that unnecessarily complicate balance.

“What the OP wants is that Passive abilities should be balanced by other passive abilities while actives balance out other actives.
Translation:
1) the warrior should not have 500 – 1100 more stat points than other characters, he can have 500 more vitatity that’s ok, but other classes get 500 somewhere else.
2) The warriors actives on the other hand should be as powerful (but different) than stealth/ clones/ etc.”
-Shadowfall.6543

@Ozii, The OP is not advocating for everyone at the same health, just not 500-1100 more stat points. Thieves should not get 800 more vitality and 100 more armor, but should get those 900 points and then the actives will be looked at to see if there is a huge disparity.

Why not Make it so that everyone starts with the same health and same armor, same power and everything else.

Then everyone gets a certain amount of stat points to spend based on the Tier they are in.

This way they could put them into Vitality, Toughness, Power, Precision, Healing Power, Condition Damage.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Why not Make it so that everyone starts with the same health and same armor, same power and everything else.

Then everyone gets a certain amount of stat points to spend based on the Tier they are in.

This way they could put them into Vitality, Toughness, Power, Precision, Healing Power, Condition Damage.

Because youd need to nerf engie, mesmer, ele, thief utilities and traits… not just warriors.

Shadowfall.6543:

Snow.2048:

Hi all =)

Tl;dr Passive = Passive; Active = active. Don’t balance to achieve active = active while passive =/= passive. Base stats are a relic from different game modes that unnecessarily complicate balance.

“What the OP wants is that Passive abilities should be balanced by other passive abilities while actives balance out other actives.
Translation:
1) the warrior should not have 500 – 1100 more stat points than other characters, he can have 500 more vitatity that’s ok, but other classes get 500 somewhere else.
2) The warriors actives on the other hand should be as powerful (but different) than stealth/ clones/ etc.”
-Shadowfall.6543

@Ozii, The OP is not advocating for everyone at the same health, just not 500-1100 more stat points. Thieves should not get 800 more vitality and 100 more armor, but should get those 900 points and then the actives will be looked at to see if there is a huge disparity.

-The actually range in Stat point difference is 151-1060.7(ascended level). The 151 is Thief to Elementalist difference and the 1060.7 is Warrior to Elementalist difference. That is only if A-Net is looking at the Elementalist as the base.
-If they are looking at lets say Engineer or Ranger as base( both medium armor and health) then the difference between the Ranger and Elementalist is 578.7 and the difference between Warrior and Ranger is 482.
-Now lets list all the Starting Stat difference of each class to the Elementalist(Turning Armor into Toughness and Starting Health-Pool into Vitality).
-Warrior to Elementalist: 1060.7
-Guardian to Elementalist: 304
-Engineer to Elementalist: 578.7
-Ranger to Elemenatlist: 578.7
-Thief to Elementalist: 151
-Necromancer to Elementalist: 756.7
-Mesmer to Elementalist: 427.7

Andele.1306:

Because youd need to nerf engie, mesmer, ele, thief utilities and traits… not just warriors.

well, if they get put into the right tier…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Andele.1306:

Because youd need to nerf engie, mesmer, ele, thief utilities and traits… not just warriors.

well, if they get put into the right tier…

Stuff like protection times cut to 33%, no stats on conjure weapons, confusion duration cut by 25%, stealth dropping on skill click not on damage delt and kits getting cooldowns. Guard aegis uptime would probably also need to be set up more like a selective blind… Necros losing hp would also nerf DS even more, but increased armor would also make minions even more annoying.

@OP

One of the best write-ups on this topic I’ve seen yet.

I’ll be amazed if this type of balancing is ever implemented, as ANet has staunchly defended their implementation of the varied base HP and armor. However, that doesn’t mean we can’t keep voicing the opinion that it was a mistake.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Why not Make it so that everyone starts with the same health and same armor, same power and everything else.

Then everyone gets a certain amount of stat points to spend based on the Tier they are in.

Equalized base stats would be great, and that’s essentially what this thread is advocating. Along with equalized base stats, the tiered profession system would be unnecessary, with the exception of determining what cosmetic style of armor the character could wear. I don’t really feel that additional stat points are necessary, but if implemented, they should have the same total value across all eight professions, regardless of tier, and the player should be able to choose where to allocate them as part of the build system.

Ancient Ranger.3276:

Shadowfall.6543:

Snow.2048:

Hi all =)

Tl;dr Passive = Passive; Active = active. Don’t balance to achieve active = active while passive =/= passive. Base stats are a relic from different game modes that unnecessarily complicate balance.

“What the OP wants is that Passive abilities should be balanced by other passive abilities while actives balance out other actives.
Translation:
1) the warrior should not have 500 – 1100 more stat points than other characters, he can have 500 more vitatity that’s ok, but other classes get 500 somewhere else.
2) The warriors actives on the other hand should be as powerful (but different) than stealth/ clones/ etc.”
-Shadowfall.6543

@Ozii, The OP is not advocating for everyone at the same health, just not 500-1100 more stat points. Thieves should not get 800 more vitality and 100 more armor, but should get those 900 points and then the actives will be looked at to see if there is a huge disparity.

-The actually range in Stat point difference is 151-1060.7(ascended level). The 151 is Thief to Elementalist difference and the 1060.7 is Warrior to Elementalist difference. That is only if A-Net is looking at the Elementalist as the base.
-If they are looking at lets say Engineer or Ranger as base( both medium armor and health) then the difference between the Ranger and Elementalist is 578.7 and the difference between Warrior and Ranger is 482.
-Now lets list all the Starting Stat difference of each class to the Elementalist(Turning Armor into Toughness and Starting Health-Pool into Vitality).
-Warrior to Elementalist: 1060.7
-Guardian to Elementalist: 304
-Engineer to Elementalist: 578.7
-Ranger to Elemenatlist: 578.7
-Thief to Elementalist: 151
-Necromancer to Elementalist: 756.7
-Mesmer to Elementalist: 427.7

Good catch, I will try to use 550 stat points or the full range from now on (550 being the average, 578 being the mode).

Can only agree on what the OP wrote.
There is no reason why certain professions should have such a big advantage.

It’s really a problem, and makes balancing much more of a problem.

I’ve to laugh every time in Skyhammer when a light-toughness profession gets hit by the cannon and then we have those warriors / guards who don’t even dodge it , cause well – they can tank 3-4 hits … it’s redicilous !!!

Well there a profession specific mechanics / utils / traits which give certain professions defensive bonus’es but , aside of Guardian , its also these HighHP + Armor professions that get them.

I really would love to see a red answer in this thread, let them “explain” to us why a warrior for example needs the highest baseHP + baseAC + regeneration , and also their redicilous Burst capability // It does not make any sense.

And justifying this stat advantage with easy to play , or it’s a beginner profession does not count.

We all know what happens if someone who can play chooses these professions.

I think this is mainly just an issue with Elementalists.

While I do agree that the variance between base hp is huge, classes have been balanced with defensive mechanics to make up for their low base health. Thieves have stealth + evasion + stuns and guardians have blocks + high armor + strong heals.

Meanwhile Elementalists seem to have nothing other than 1-2 extremely weak healing skills in the water tree, that’s it. I think it’s time that Ele’s were boosted up to 15k base health. It would be a HUGE help in PvE to stop getting insta-gibbed by elite mobs. The number of times I’ve been downed due to 1-shot unforseeable damage is ridiculous to the point of being unfair…flat PvE damage values means that I get repeatedly downed while another class gets to survive.

It’s not funny watching warriors laugh in the face of the kind of damage that would destroy an Ele, not when they can still do great damage and have the option to go ranged.

Wintel.4873:

I think this is mainly just an issue with Elementalists.

While I do agree that the variance between base hp is huge, classes have been balanced with defensive mechanics to make up for their low base health. Thieves have stealth + evasion + stuns and guardians have blocks + high armor + strong heals.

Meanwhile Elementalists seem to have nothing other than 1-2 extremely weak healing skills in the water tree, that’s it. I think it’s time that Ele’s were boosted up to 15k base health. It would be a HUGE help in PvE to stop getting insta-gibbed by elite mobs. The number of times I’ve been downed due to an unforseeable damage is ridiculous.

It’s not funny watching warriors laugh in the face of the kind of damage that would destroy an Ele.

They posted a response on a ranger balance thread, as long as we keep it constructive, we may just get one.

It would be nice to get some insight into the Devs if they even want to go this route. They could save us a lot of time saying that they feel the current stat distribution is in a good place and have no intention on changing a core mechanic. Or they could push us in another direction, I mean when they raise the level cap (I believe they mentioned it was a possibility) the stat differential is only going to grow.

Until then I am still waiting for the CDI topic of class balance.

Wintel.4873:

I think this is mainly just an issue with Elementalists.

While I do agree that the variance between base hp is huge, classes have been balanced with defensive mechanics to make up for their low base health. Thieves have stealth + evasion + stuns and guardians have blocks + high armor + strong heals.

Meanwhile Elementalists seem to have nothing other than 1-2 extremely weak healing skills in the water tree, that’s it. I think it’s time that Ele’s were boosted up to 15k base health. It would be a HUGE help in PvE to stop getting insta-gibbed by elite mobs. The number of times I’ve been downed due to 1-shot unforseeable damage is ridiculous to the point of being unfair…flat PvE damage values means that I get repeatedly downed while another class gets to survive.

It’s not funny watching warriors laugh in the face of the kind of damage that would destroy an Ele, not when they can still do great damage and have the option to go ranged. If I wanted Holy Trinity I would go back to WoW.

The problem is that stealth, evasion, blocks etc aren’t balanced against health/armor. In order for classes to make up the difference between them and another armor/health tier they need to spec specific ways. Thieves need to pick up evasion traits, stack toughness/vitality, use stealth utilities, and get stealth traits. Same goes for mesmers, there is a reason PU is the most popular. Guardians need to spec for heals and warriors get blocks too.

The problem is that the lack of overall survivability of most classes due to stat imbalance is forcing them into survivable specs. All I want is each class to have to make the same sacrifices in order to gain survivability or damage. Currently some classes can get both without any real sacrifice and others have to sacrifice way too much.

Hi guys!

1.5k+ views and you guys have been busy replying I see! Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions, I will do my best to give everyone a response, as usual!

But before we begin, I think I should try to explain myself a bit more, because I get the feeling that I accidentally misplaced the focus with the remake. So I’ll try to say some things here, wishing I had reserved a third post for the OP XD.

First off, this will not magically fix everything, in fact, this change alone won’t fix squat of the most visible issues in profession balance besides the stat difference itself. But it is important, because it hinders balancing acts and or restricts build choices. Smaller stat differences would make this problem more surmountable, but to truly ease the process of balancing it would be more efficient to separate the passives from the actives. Let’s take apart that statement though, because I’m not quite clear enough it seems

What is a passive? And an active?
Here is a problem I keep bumping into. What do I mean with passive, what do I mean with active? I actually managed to get somewhere when reading through the comments and answering some (my internet failed on my computer so I have a document with a lot of notes, coming soon). Here is what I am thinking

Passives are inherent things that a class possesses without anything, so all builds of the same class have it. And they are passive in that you don’t have to do anything about it. They just are. Base stats is what I mean when I say passives usually, but why do I keep making the “mistake” of suggesting that base stats are the only passive. After some thinking, I came to the conclusion “because they kinda are”. Before you protest, please read on, this is my opinion and method of dividing the “stuff” that makes up classes.

I have three categories in my mind:
Inherent Passives [read Base Stats] (no choice, always there)
Optional Passives [Stat items; traits, signet passives](choice, always there when chosen) <The act of choosing makes me think of them as _act_ives when I’m speed thinking>
Actives [Certain traits, abilities](choice, only there when you execute a command)

Class abilities are inherent, but they always come with two things. Their very own trait line (typically) and usually an active effect based on them. Therefore, I consider these as actives, notably actives that create some of the most striking differences between the classes. Most other things you have to choose to get or choose to activate, but not base stats.

Let’s take this model and connect it to some of the discussion thus far. Actives definitely cannot be balanced with base stats, as they represent a range, not a set number. If you take the average or the minimum an active can give, you’ll see skilled players over performing. If you take the maximum, you’ll see most people under performing, but no over performance. I just can’t wrap my head around this ever working because even if you get this delicate balance set, and you find the sweet spot for every active, then the result is that you cannot change anything without risking the whole thing falling apart again (and not a small risk at that unless you are just adding filler junk).

Optional passives as I call them might come into balance with base stats. You make choices and get a static boost and static boosts can be balanced with other static boosts. However, then the matter of choice comes into play. I’m trying to avoid using examples here to break the finger pointing habit a bit, but I’m sure everyone can think of a trait that is must have in multiple builds on a class because it shores up inherent weaknesses. Or a class that has to stat for some vitality. Choice becomes limited because you are hooked on certain factors that you must have, be they active or passive. If you free up the base stats which have no choice, then you allow choice (after balancing the rest of course) because you don’t have to grab certain stats or traits just to get by.
Min-maxers will always be trying to pigeon hole you into the fotm build that they proclaim is the best (and it might just be), and this change would not change that (you need trait x or you fail nub). But for people who want to choose, this change would be a large step towards allowing it on some classes that are limited. What was that slogan again? Play the way you want?

How to separate?
I think this is fairly clear, but there are multiple posts (and not many new ideas sadly =/). I think base health should be equalized (simply because I have no idea how to balance a few hundred vitality. It has no true opposite, and is more of less just a sponge anyway), which people disagree with. Give me a better idea so I can shower you with virtual confetti and call you the true savoir of tyria. Or if you want, answer my little question that I probably have asked and will ask many times before this is over “How much vitality is a dodge worth (or evasion, invul, etc)?” Give me a run down, and show me the truth.

Armor is a bit of a difficult point in the discussion. I thought, let’s just take the opposites, double check the skill modifiers and call it a day. This doesn’t seem to make many people happy though.
What are the pro’s and con’s of leaving it alone, equalizing it, balancing it with power or -insert your idea-. If you are convinced you are right, then convince me If you do that you get full credit here, as is due [you’ll find I’m pretty easy to convince as long as your logic is solid and your math + ideas are good]. Then we can get on to the hard part, which is trying to prove that point to everyone else.

But I guess I should stop here and get some answers posted! Anyway, thanks for reading.

@All, It was my mistake to use an example I guess, but I am trying to avoid finger pointing. While examples are good and I’m not asking you guys to stop using them, let’s be careful that it doesn’t become a thread of “nerf stealth and hs, fixed”. Thanks guys for dedicating time and thoughts!

@Sir Morgan Malory, They were taken into account from what I know. Elementalist got snubbed because of having actives that in a skilled player’s hand went beyond the stat difference. Then they were over-nerfed. Warriors were meh because their actives were balanced assuming that the vit and toughness would make up for it. Then they were buffed when this wasn’t the case. All these changes effected the actives only, and the further we go from the release, the less they seem to take these base stats into account. I’m not trying to pin blame here, I also manage large complicated networks of sorts on occasion and it is very easy to miss a variable or two when you are dealing with dozens (let alone hundreds or thousands) when you want to change something after you finished putting the kitten thing together.

@Stogzlol, Thanks for your support, and I’m glad you enjoyed the read! I know I have been enjoying this thread as well =). I get the feeling that a lot of those who agree play(ed) elementalist XD. I’m a melee ranger main myself though.. Anyway, the issue might not be the paper dps (I don’t do paper dps because it’s a waste of time calculating) but the real dps not quite meeting the paper dps. Or they realized that the current system of pve is all about dps so they’re balancing classes around dps being equal… Who knows? They aren’t going to tell us that

I just want more choices in the end, I like playing a glass melee, I accept I die almost instantly if I f up but I also like playing a tanky bunker (my personal preference usually) which I can’t seem to accept that I have to choose classes with enough defensive stats to be able to have a strong basis for a bunker or choose a class that has enough defensive stats to get away with glass. It feels so lopsided to me. I know that stats aren’t everything, but that probably why it bugs me the most, it feels so unnecessary and forced (if every other game has stat differences else, we should too).

We’ll just see how the thread develops ^^

@Andele, It seems easy, but I ask this question that I always ask. How much is the invulnerability worth? Etc etc etc. You all get the point now, but I stand firmly upon it. An invulnerability has the potential to be worth a huge amount of stats (endure pain against a burst going off, or even better, multiple bursts!) or next to none (against pressure between bursts). The solution of making armor matter less and toughness choices more is just changing the ratio’s which would make this better, but that falls under the solution of bringing the base stats closer. Making the armor worth less relative to toughness results in a net difference change between armor types (the difference is smaller). Why not just reduce the difference straight out? And either way, would this be worth having to re-balance a lot of the game?

I’m just going to assume you are right with those dps/burst claims for the sake of this response (can you bring numbers next time, please? It makes life easier). How close is the second best burst to elementalist, and does the increase in burst warrant the survival difference between the two. Also, what are the cd differences we are talking about here? Are they close enough/far enough to warrant the difference?
And if thieves have the highest dps, is that before or after counting stealth uptime (several dead seconds)/ evasion/dodges in which little to no damage is done depending on the build? I really want to see the math on this one (I’m not doubting you, just love me some solid math). But assuming highest dps for a moment, is the difference between them and the second highest dps enough to cover for the fact that they can be completely destroyed while in stealth, one of their main defensive abilities?
Is it enough to make it acceptable for both these classes to have must have traits/stat choices just to live (and thus never realizing their full damage potential anyway) or going full damage potential but being unable to bring it to bear because they die to quick?

Vick.6805:

Equalized base stats would be great, and that’s essentially what this thread is advocating. Along with equalized base stats, the tiered profession system would be unnecessary, with the exception of determining what cosmetic style of armor the character could wear. I don’t really feel that additional stat points are necessary, but if implemented, they should have the same total value across all eight professions, regardless of tier, and the player should be able to choose where to allocate them as part of the build system.

What else would be interesting, not limiting a class to a specific armor type. They could have it so that the armor types have different advantages and disadvantages for example:

Light: + Damage – Armor
Heavy – Damage + Armor

Medium would be something that isn’t quite as powerful damage wise Light and wouldn’t have as much armor as Heavy. So medium would be the the basis of the + and – to Light armor and Heavy armor.

something like:

Light armor: 125 damage, 75 armor
Medium armor: 100 Damage, 100 armor
Heavy: 75 damage, 125armor

This would mean that all armor in the game would have to be adjusted a bit but imagine ALL classes having the choice of what type of armor to use. What sort of build options they would have…

@Jine, Thanks for the reply =) Everyone seems to be very keen on middle tier HP. I don’t disagree (I actually don’t really care that much, I just thought more HP = longer fights, but it might actually make condition even more essential in small scale pvp. I’d really like to hear someone’s thoughts at this point)

While I think evening armor might be the best idea given the current pve situation, I am worried that it might make things a bit too bland. A 150/300 push wouldn’t be game breaking I think, but your idea might need less balancing. What I was thinking, although this is a pretty dangerous topic, is that you could turn the skill modifier into a function based on other effects. But that’s scary stuff right there, and potentially even more dangerous to variety. Armor is definitely a difficult issue.

@oZii, I tried your link but it didn’t work sorry. I just want to make sure this is clear that this change doesn’t fix the balance problems, it fixes some of the problems in balancing. That’s what I meant it to do when I thought it up, sorry if I didn’t bring it over clearly. That being said, let’s move on to your thoughts =)

You basically have two issues with my ideas from what I gather.
1. Without balancing everything else, this change would be a mess. I completely agree with you, and that was in the original OP. I will add this to the new OP so no more confusion will take place.
2. Even with balancing, everything would become the same. I had this discussion with Tim earlier, and it is indeed a potential problem. However there are many variables left after you take out base stats. You took several into account, but there are many more. So many active options, and the game still needs to include base stats in the equation…

I have a few questions after reading your posts
Why do some classes need to have their choices limited just to have base stats?
If the base stats are gone, you could also buff things too?
Does everything has to be nerfed, when a buff/nerf sweep would be healthier imo anyway?
And besides, is a few thousand HP really going to make the difference so huge that suddenly none of the skills can be balanced against each other anymore?
Is every skill balanced with the hp and armor in mind in the first place at this point?

Thanks for your dedicated input, and going on with the discussion! I hope I cleared a thing or two up, and would enjoy to see any future posts from you ^^

@Nutshel, Good examples that I usually keep in my mind as well (just not with the detail you went into!) I’ve been trying to sneak this into my posts, so here it goes ;P "If a burst ele dies before he get his burst off, is it really a burst? " It must be getting late, because I’m finding it a bit too funny…trees…

Ehem. The damage to defense ratio should definitely be looked at in order to help make useful statements here. The vast hp differences cost build variety, just as you stated. I agree with your assessment for what it is worth (I’m brain dead at this hour, time to stop.)

Thanks for providing the examples and making a good point with fact that sustain is only useful based on your length of in combat staying ability which is directly connected to base health. Sorry that I’m losing touch right now, I need sleep.

@all, Sorry that I’m behind again. I will try to get some more replies off in the morning. You all take care, and thanks for all the thoughts and discussion going on here! I really appreciate the seriousness and the general thoughtfulness put into your responses, and how everyone is maintaining a great discussion attitude. Kudos to you all!

Snow.2048:

How to separate?
I think this is fairly clear, but there are multiple posts (and not many new ideas sadly =/). I think base health should be equalized (simply because I have no idea how to balance a few hundred vitality. It has no true opposite, and is more of less just a sponge anyway), which people disagree with. Give me a better idea so I can shower you with virtual confetti and call you the true savoir of tyria. Or if you want, answer my little question that I probably have asked and will ask many times before this is over “How much vitality is a dodge worth (or evasion, invul, etc)?” Give me a run down, and show me the truth.

Armor is a bit of a difficult point in the discussion. I thought, let’s just take the opposites, double check the skill modifiers and call it a day. This doesn’t seem to make many people happy though.
What are the pro’s and con’s of leaving it alone, equalizing it, balancing it with power or -insert your idea-. If you are convinced you are right, then convince me If you do that you get full credit here, as is due [you’ll find I’m pretty easy to convince as long as your logic is solid and your math + ideas are good]. Then we can get on to the hard part, which is trying to prove that point to everyone else.

But I guess I should stop here and get some answers posted! Anyway, thanks for reading.

-To answer your question: “How much vitality is a dodge worth (or evasion, invul, etc)?”
-My answer: Depends.
-Reasoning: Dodges,invul,evasion,ect or only as good as the skill they are used against plus the amount of damage you do while that “block” is happening.
(Assuming I will hit a 3k firegrab)
-Example1: I firegrab X-person they dodge. That dodge is worth 3k damage.
-Example2: I firegrab Y-person(a mesmer) They use sword 2 on me dealing 2k damage. That evasion is worth 5k damage(3k evasion from my firegrab and 2k from thier hit).

I do believe in the fact that they gave different armor values to different types of classes(light, mediums, heavies). I could believe in the fact that wants different starting health pools if the difference was not so drastic.
The way the health pools look now is
Low:10805
Medium:15082
High:18372.
If they looked more like this I would not be so objective to them
Low:13000
Medium:15000
High:17000

Currently The difference between High and Low tier in health pools is 7567 which in turn relates to 756.7 Vitality. With my proposed health pools the difference is only 4000 which in turn relates to 400 vitality.

I would be happy to trade 500 vit on my warr.

No problem!

But can i have some teleport skills also?
Healing on weapon skills?
Some stealth?
Maby some mini warriors around me
Protection?
More blinds?
Ow and ofc less obvious animations with shorter casttime skills..

When you give all classes same base health you would have to nerf/buff so much more, making it just more difficult to balance around.

nicknamenick.2437:

I would be happy to trade 500 vit on my warr.

No problem!

But can i have some teleport skills also?
Healing on weapon skills?
Some stealth?
Maby some mini warriors around me
Protection?
More blinds?
Ow and ofc less obvious animations with shorter casttime skills..

When you give all classes same base health you would have to nerf/buff so much more, making it just more difficult to balance around.

Typical warrior – Not satisfied having the highest health, armor, best mobility, blocks, immunities and great CC.

nicknamenick.2437:

I would be happy to trade 500 vit on my warr.

No problem!

But can i have some teleport skills also?
Healing on weapon skills?
Some stealth?
Maby some mini warriors around me
Protection?
More blinds?
Ow and ofc less obvious animations with shorter casttime skills..

When you give all classes same base health you would have to nerf/buff so much more, making it just more difficult to balance around.

leap attacks are essentially teleports, and you already have high mobility. So sure, a utility teleport with 40 second cooldown, but rush (and other charging attacks) will have double cooldown on miss (with standard cooldown being at least 20 seconds).

I think warriors should definitely have healing on weapon skills. Join the staff elementalist, warhorn Call to Arms could do AOE 8 seconds of regen and remove a condition on a 40 second cooldown. Healing signet would need to be rebalanced to heal ~200 health per attack skill used.

stealth, sure blinding arrow will create a smoke field, you can combo explosion arrow for stealth. There you go.

Mini warrriors- well if thieves get thieves guild, I think warriors should get Guild WARs. Not too much different than char warband and whatnot.

Protection sure – Balance stance now grants 6 seconds of stability and protection, but is on a 90 second timer (and is still a stun breaker).

more blinds, it is already on longbow. I suppose you could get a utility with blind, how about the Fear Me can be your blind. I never understood why warriors got fear anyway. It will be AOE and be down to a 30 second recharge.

Be careful what you wish for you just may get it. I tried to balance the warrior with the closest approximation of elementalist skills (mostly because I am most familiar with that class).

Ancient Ranger.3276:

Snow.2048:

How to separate?
I think this is fairly clear, but there are multiple posts (and not many new ideas sadly =/). I think base health should be equalized (simply because I have no idea how to balance a few hundred vitality. It has no true opposite, and is more of less just a sponge anyway), which people disagree with. Give me a better idea so I can shower you with virtual confetti and call you the true savoir of tyria. Or if you want, answer my little question that I probably have asked and will ask many times before this is over “How much vitality is a dodge worth (or evasion, invul, etc)?” Give me a run down, and show me the truth.

Armor is a bit of a difficult point in the discussion. I thought, let’s just take the opposites, double check the skill modifiers and call it a day. This doesn’t seem to make many people happy though.
What are the pro’s and con’s of leaving it alone, equalizing it, balancing it with power or -insert your idea-. If you are convinced you are right, then convince me If you do that you get full credit here, as is due [you’ll find I’m pretty easy to convince as long as your logic is solid and your math + ideas are good]. Then we can get on to the hard part, which is trying to prove that point to everyone else.

But I guess I should stop here and get some answers posted! Anyway, thanks for reading.

-To answer your question: “How much vitality is a dodge worth (or evasion, invul, etc)?”
-My answer: Depends.
-Reasoning: Dodges,invul,evasion,ect or only as good as the skill they are used against plus the amount of damage you do while that “block” is happening.
(Assuming I will hit a 3k firegrab)
-Example1: I firegrab X-person they dodge. That dodge is worth 3k damage.
-Example2: I firegrab Y-person(a mesmer) They use sword 2 on me dealing 2k damage. That evasion is worth 5k damage(3k evasion from my firegrab and 2k from thier hit).

I do believe in the fact that they gave different armor values to different types of classes(light, mediums, heavies). I could believe in the fact that wants different starting health pools if the difference was not so drastic.
The way the health pools look now is
Low:10805
Medium:15082
High:18372.
If they looked more like this I would not be so objective to them
Low:13000
Medium:15000
High:17000

Currently The difference between High and Low tier in health pools is 7567 which in turn relates to 756.7 Vitality. With my proposed health pools the difference is only 4000 which in turn relates to 400 vitality.

I advocate different health pools but no difference between stats. If the devs had initially set everyones HP equal and had tradeoffs in armor like in GW1 no one would would take a suggestion to just give certain classes significantly more durability seriously.

I.e. If I state that Elementalist should be given 550 more power and condition damage because they are a DPS class and their description states they sacrificed durability for increased damage, how well do you think that would go over? If Thieves should be given 350 more Power and Precision?

I think putting a numeric stat value on mechanics like stealth or clones etc. is just too hard. Class’ actives should be balanced, so instead of putting a vitality difference on stealth one should compare the different active skills or dimensions of a class (i.e. the CC ability, DPS, Regen, Blocks, etc.)

Shadowfall.6543:

nicknamenick.2437:

I would be happy to trade 500 vit on my warr.

No problem!

But can i have some teleport skills also?
Healing on weapon skills?
Some stealth?
Maby some mini warriors around me
Protection?
More blinds?
Ow and ofc less obvious animations with shorter casttime skills..

When you give all classes same base health you would have to nerf/buff so much more, making it just more difficult to balance around.

leap attacks are essentially teleports, and you already have high mobility. So sure, a utility teleport with 40 second cooldown, but rush (and other charging attacks) will have double cooldown on miss (with standard cooldown being at least 20 seconds).

I think warriors should definitely have healing on weapon skills. Join the staff elementalist, warhorn Call to Arms could do AOE 8 seconds of regen and remove a condition on a 40 second cooldown. Healing signet would need to be rebalanced to heal ~200 health per attack skill used.

stealth, sure blinding arrow will create a smoke field, you can combo explosion arrow for stealth. There you go.

Mini warrriors- well if thieves get thieves guild, I think warriors should get Guild WARs. Not too much different than char warband and whatnot.

Protection sure – Balance stance now grants 6 seconds of stability and protection, but is on a 90 second timer (and is still a stun breaker).

more blinds, it is already on longbow. I suppose you could get a utility with blind, how about the Fear Me can be your blind. I never understood why warriors got fear anyway. It will be AOE and be down to a 30 second recharge.

Be careful what you wish for you just may get it. I tried to balance the warrior with the closest approximation of elementalist skills (mostly because I am most familiar with that class).

Increasing the cooldown to same as Ele skills doesnt make sense because ele got 2x more skills. Thats why some skills have longer cooldown for them compared to other classes.

And leap is not the same as teleport..

And i posted it because it is the true, if you give other classes more health or bring down warrior health you have to rebalance allot more.

A year ago i remember we where posting here on forum talking about base health/armor also. But at that point many did agree the classes with the most base stats are doomed! Because the more health/armor you have the less you bring in the fight..(stealth/clones/etc)

And when reading this topic i just cant take this serious

TLDR Warriors getting invuls and high mobility kittened up the line of low passive defense vs high active power. BUT, in actual active value the less effective hp a profession has, the more powerful utilities and combos get… All that this tells me is that both warriors and necros got kittened in the kitten by a-net in one way (pleasure for warrior) or another (why did you stick that spiked kitten in there for necro).
Covering the one weakness a profession was supposed to have (sustain for warrior, the all in bursty beef dude) or giving them something noone wanted (burst to necro the condition manipulation i wear you down till you beg me to stop spaking you and just cut your head off) and is stupid to add are the problems, not stats since that difference is more than made up by sheer power of utilities.

Shadowfall.6543:

Ancient Ranger.3276:

Snow.2048:

(Snip)

(Snip)

I am not saying give Warriors 400 more starting vitality than Elementalist. Keep it the same as it is now both start at 916, but instead of Warriors health pool starting at 18372 simply bring it down to 17000. Vice-Versa keep Elementalist starting vitality at 916, but instead of starting at 10805 health simply raise it to 13000.
Now with that difference Between Low and High tier health-pools, the lower tier health-pool doesn’t have to trait/gear so heavily into vitality to simply get the same level of health.

So back to the OP original idea he is stating to balance Passive with Passive and Active with Active. As bringing starting health-pools closer together it become more balance of the Passive to Passive while still keeping diversity in classes.
As you stated “I think putting a numeric stat value on mechanics like stealth or clones etc. is just too hard” this is very correct, but that is what A-net has done by giving those mechanics to low/medium tier health-pool classes.
Lets take stealth for an example. Classes with easily available stealth: Mesmer, Thief, and Engineer. Two have Medium health(Mesmer/Engineer) and one has Low health(Thief).
Thief has Perma-Stealth both Engineers and Mesmers do not. So comparing Thief to Warrior A-net has stated that Perma-Stealth is worth 756 Vitality. While not having Perma-stealth but still having easy access to stealth is only worth 329 Vitality.
Obviously this is excluding other variables and assuming all other variables are balanced perfectly.

Ancient Ranger.3276:

Lets take stealth for an example. Classes with easily available stealth: Mesmer, Thief, and Engineer. Two have Medium health(Mesmer/Engineer) and one has Low health(Thief).
Thief has Perma-Stealth both Engineers and Mesmers do not. So comparing Thief to Warrior A-net has stated that Perma-Stealth is worth 756 Vitality. While not having Perma-stealth but still having easy access to stealth is only worth 329 Vitality.
Obviously this is excluding other variables and assuming all other variables are balanced perfectly.

Well 1st off Perma-Stealth doesn’t exist^^ but not the point :-)
2nd for stealth u have to take more in account then just Vit. a Warrior has more armor is faster, more boons, etc. If u take all that in account is stealth still worth it?
U also have to take skill-evades (not dodging) in account. That is what the thief is build around. The problem here is that it scales very good with skill.

To OP:
i mostly agree with u i think in the beginning the game was better ballanced, besides a few unbalanced skills (heartseeker spam ;-) in PVP) every class had its unique position in the game now i mostly see (for PVE) warri, mesmer and guards while other classes like Eles, Necros are rarely seen
I think these changes it would be a step in the right direction for future Balancing.

Gliding silently from the shadows, I rise my hand, as crackling necrotic energy surges around me, covering the forgotten thread in mist. “No rest for you, sweet soul.” I mutter smugly as the beast stirs.

I’m back, sorry I was gone so long. I’m gonna try to answer all posts before this point personally but briefly. After this, I’ll see if this thread gets anymore responses and will probably consider letting it die after that. We talked, some agree, others don’t. If I get around to finishing my other suggestion threads I have backed up, I might bump this up with them, but I’m not sure I’ll get to it. But if you find this an interesting and important topic, please consider posting!

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 I’m not sure if simply changing the ends of the spectrum would fix the thing that I see as the true issue, the balancing of actives and passives. However I will concede that doing this would be a good first step to balancing the current situation, and considering it cost less manpower might be the better option.

Sorry, almost missed the last post, making the stats choice based only makes the balance difference between the classes even more obvious. I think it would bring us further from balance than closer.. I’m glad you posted so many different ideas though, it was definitely what I was hoping would happen! =)

@Andele.1306 Since utilities are greater than stats anyway, why confuse the matter by calculating them in? My biggest problem is the unnecessary complication of the matter. You make good note of all the actives, but why bother balancing them with statics is the issue. Yes things need to be re-balanced in a large way. But at this point, they probably have to be anyway so why not do it on a balanced ground.
Thank you for bringing up so many points and generating plenty of discussion!

@Shadowfall, Thank you for contributing so much! I am very appreciative of your efforts =)

@Azoqu.8917 Balance is needed, but not everyone agrees with balance, especially if they are currently at an advantage. But let’s avoid pointing fingers at classes. Thanks for taking the time to post

@phaeris.7604 Yeah the most obvious balance issues are actives. This thread seems to get misunderstood a lot because of this.. But I’m not sure if its my fault yet, because some people catch it right away. Thanks for your thoughts

@Chaosky.5276 I’m just going to quote you as an answer from now on to misunderstandings XD Putting it on top of this post probably. Thanks for the clear headed response

@Ancient Ranger.3276 Thanks for solid number breakdowns. While 400 difference would be better, it doesn’t quite meet my original intention of easing skill balancing as well.. You answered my question without a conclusion so I’ll do it real quick based on your response. You have to count dodges/invulnis as a range of damage absorption with a potentially infinite upper limit based on the number of attackers, therefore it cannot be given a vitality value.
Thanks =)

@Vick.6805 Thanks, I also have trouble seeing any changes of this kind coming, especially after reading the pet is there, it may be broken, but deal with it thread =P (or collaboration development ranger is the official name)

@lvis.3824 Skyhammer brings up a good point because of its high damage (I’m not sure if the 4-6 hits is accurate, but I well assume it is for this post), however you can also consider that many pve bosses and siege weapons do similar damage, making this a cross game mode issue. Thanks for posting =)

@Wintel.4873 The problem remains quantifying the actives to match with the stats, which is one of the main focuses I aimed for when making this thread (it got a bit lost). It is possible to balance probably, but why bother if you have so many variables. The one shot issue is a good point that really makes the wide difference obvious when you switch classes. While just fixing elementalist would bring things closer to balance, I would hope for something more. Thanks for posting ^^

@Distaste.4801 A very good summary of the issue, I wish I had another post reserved so I could fit all you guys in. A lot of good solid thinking has gone into this thread so far, I hope its not in vain. Thanks =)

@nicknamenick.2437 Yeah warrior sucked because they balanced around stats in the first place, so they balanced playing less attention to the stats… So why do we still have them? While your first post was a bit disruptive (just as much so as those saying the opposite “nerf warrior” was) I am glad you took the time to explain yourself in the second post. However, I think warrior has gotten a lot of buffs since then, and while I agree a re-balance is still necessary afterwards, I stick to my point which is stats are unnecessary. Thanks for your posts =)

Didn’t all fit, here is the last one:

@Tyron.1423, The presence of classes in different parts of the game does speak volumes about the variety inside each class. The lack of variety in the class is hindering the presence of of certain classes (some classes will always be weaker in some situation, but having more build choices can make up for this) and since some classes have to take stats to be viable, you can say the stat issue is part of the problem. Thanks for posting =)

@all Thanks once again, rereading the thread has made me feel a bit more positive! Many clear thinking people on both sides and all in all a very serious and polite discussion. Until we meet again, farewell!

Due to the discussion on base health starting again, I am necroing this thread in hopes of renewing discussion in the light of the new balance patch

We now see the attempt to balance with top layer things, such as traits, is still not addressing some of the points most painful to the players, and now we have to wait for x amount of time after the “balance” settles. The changes, however, are unlikely to affect the top tier classes/builds, only rearranging the middle ranks, perhaps creating a new build or two.

In short, nothing drastic in actual balancing will be done.

As an extension to my OP, I would like to point out the vast differences in traits currently. Some classes get similar abilities to others at completely different costs, and it doesn’t show a strong favoring to the base stat differences (some my argue it goes the completely opposite way!).
With the new patch not addressing this issue, is it still advisable to continue supporting the tweaking of traits, or is this kind of reset perhaps a good idea?

They could always make it so weaker classes statwise get more stats through their trait points. The end total could still be less, however this will bring more flexibility in those classes and Eles and Thieves for example will have more of a reason to spec into some (currently) unfavorable traits.

all characters on the same level naked without armor and not a single trait point spent
should all have the same base stats.

If they arn’t balanced in this state, how is it even possible to balance 8 completly different professions with some many combinations of weaponsets utilitys and traits?
at this point you always have to look back at this point to actually balance passive stats by making active spells/skills stronger/weaker or consider those in the traits etc.

Anet is just making it way harder for themselves with this

@swim This is an interesting idea, but do you mean offensive wise as well? EG elementalist can get 60 points per new system point in every trait? If the totals are balanced, it might work. I like that this idea is transparent number wise, but I feel it is still unfair to weaker classes, especially at lower levels with the new trait update.

@Felices My thought exactly