Guild Wars 2

Really? But you can cast all of those other skills and not blinds?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Really? But you can cast all of those other skills and not blinds?

Please explain how a blind on a skill with a 3/4s cast time is going to stop a skill with a 3/4s cast time, after that skill is already casting. I’ll help you out, it won’t. Which is our point, everyone else has access to things that they can use AFTER a skill is cast to negate THAT SPECIFIC SKILL. Necromancer has death shroud, that’s it.

Also, lets just assume you can. Do you think we’re the only people with blind? Or that it evens out? We have 5 ways to access blind, plus blast finishers on a Dark field (awful access to blast finishers), which still puts us at less than half of what any other profession has in terms of active defense. Plus you have to include that for other professions:
Guardian – 5 blinds
Warrior – 1
Engineers – 7 plus Smoke fields
Thieves – 9 (10 with steal) plus Dark and Smoke fields
Elementalist – 9 plus Smoke fields
Mesmer – 7
Ranger – 2

And all those smoke fields have way better access to blind than us. So if you want to include blind feel free, it actually makes us even worse off since only two professions have worse access than we do.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

They are tanky while performing activities. Life siphon, deaths shroud etc.

overcharged shot. tanky gone. 90% of necros i run into in wvw do not run foot in the grave. this allows me, as another necro, to wipe the floor with them. not to mention when i’m running on my engineer.

Nice to see even with evidence of the difference between classes. People still seem to be unable to accept that necro has a severe lack of damage avoidance.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Nice to see even with evidence of the difference between classes. People still seem to be unable to accept that necro has a severe lack of damage avoidance.

No one said they do not go to the bottom of the list in it. We are simply disagreeing with those claiming it has none. Then we are going on to explain why it in no way justifies giving locust signet the level of stability that warriors and guardians have with it.

Well seeing as blocks, evades and invulns can all be used to avoid cc. I dont see why necro cant have more stability. Especially seeing as the devs seem to want us to sponge every attack. Stability doesnt prevent this, it just allows us to actually fight back while sponging.

Especially when all of our mechanics to actually sponge damage involve having to land skills.

Necros do way more damage, that’s why. They are a class that has a different balance then guardians (whom I think you are referring to).

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Necros do way more damage, that’s why. They are a class that has a different balance then guardians (whom I think you are referring to).

Read spoj’s list thing. We have less access to active defense than every. single. profession. Also, Guardians don’t have bad damage, they just rarely build for it. DPS guards are scary as hell.

So?

Thief, ele, mesmer, and ranger are on that list, yet they do not have access to any more stability then necromancer, yet none of there damage avoidance skills function when they are CCed. Clearly they all need kitten stability skill too.

They actually have ways to avoid it in the first place, we don’t.

Again people completely missing the point of the list. x)

Honestly I dont mind necro having so few options. Its amazing necro does as well as it does with how little choice is has to avoid damage. But you cant deny this is a pretty big imbalance in a game that emphasises the importance of active damage avoidance.

“Dodging is very prevalent in the game”. Yeah but not for necro.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Just thought id go through all active damage avoidance in the game and i decided to add cleave aswell.

Cleave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleave

Guardian – 4 weapons
Warrior – 5 weapons
Engi – 1 Kit
Ranger – 2 weapons + 1 pet type
Thief – 1 weapon
Ele – 1 weapon + 1 conjure
Mesmer – 1 weapon
Necro – 0

Active Defence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigor
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

Guardian – 5 Projectile block/reflects, 6 Blocks, 1 Invuln, 0 Evades, 2 endurance regen 14 active defence options
Shield of Absorption, Zealots Defence, Wall of Reflect, Shield of the Avenger, Sanctuary, Protector's Strike, Shield of Wrath, Shelter, Retreat, Virtue of Courage, Communal Defences, Renewed Focus, Vigorous Precision, Save Yourselves

Warrior – 1 reflect, 3 Blocks, 4 Invulns, 1 Evade, 5 endurance regen
14 active defence options (16 if you count 3 reflects)
Missile Deflection (3 blocks), Counterblow, Riposte, Shield Stance ,Defy Pain ,Defiant Stance , Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, Whirlwind Attack ,Quick Breathing ,Vigorous Focus, Call to Arms, Signet of Stamina, Building Momentum

Engi – 4 Projectile block/reflects, 2 Blocks, 2 Invulns, 0 Evades, 7 endurance regen
15 active defence options (20 if you count turret reflects)
Fortified Turrets (6 turrets), Magnetic Shield, Elixir U, Air Blast, Static Shield, Gear Shield, Self Regulating Defences, Elixir S, Invigorating Speed, Gadgeteer, Experimental Turrets, Elixir H, Elixir R, Adrenal Implant, Adrenaline Pump

Ranger – 1 reflect, 1 Block, 1 Invuln, 6 Evades, 5 endurance regen
14 active defence options
Whirling Defence, Counterattack, Signet of the Beastmaster, Signet of Stone, Lightning Reflexes, Power Stab, Hornet Sting, Serpents Strike, Stalkers Strike, Quick Shot, Lightning Reflexes, Primal Reflexes, Vigorous Renewal, Vigorous Training, Natural Vigor

Thief – 2 Projectile block/reflects, 0 Blocks, 1 Invuln, 6 Evades, 5 endurance regen
14 active defence options
Dagger Storm, Smokescreen, Drink (Steal), Disabling Shot, Flanking Strike, Pistol Whip, Death Blossom, Withdraw, Roll for Initiative, Bountiful Theft, Vigorous Recovery, Signet of Agility, Wild Strike, Feline Grace

Ele – 4 Projectile block/reflects, 3 Blocks, 3 Invulns, 2 Evades, 6 endurance regen
18 active defence options
Magnetic Aura, Magnetic Wave, Swirling Winds, Ring of Earth, Arcane Shield, Final Shielding, Stone Sheath, Mist Form, Obsidian Flesh, Fortify, Burning Retreat, Updraft, Phoenix, Renewing Stamina, Soothing Disruption, Vigorous Scepter, Zephyrs Focus, Arcane Energy

Mesmer – 6 Projectile block/reflects, 2 Blocks, 3 Invulns, 1 Evade , 2 endurance regen 14 active defence options (18 if you count all signet invulns)
Phantasmal Warden, Temportal Curtain, Mirror, Feedback, Mimic, Masterful Reflection, Illusionary Counter, Illusionary Riposte, Distortion, Blurred Inscriptions (5 signets), Triumphant Distortion, Blurred Frenzy, Critical Infusion, Vigorous Revelation

Necro – 1 active defence option
Deathshroud!

That’s actually really depressing to read when it’s written that way lol. (PS you forgot about stealth which IMO counts as well lol)

Bhawb.7408:

Blinds are not active, you cannot see an earthshaker incoming and think “oh hey, I see him casting earthshaker, let me blind that so I don’t get CCed”. Blind is something attached to either skills like WoD/Plague, which are just general over time area denial effects (not that they do not on their own do anything but make an area that is difficult to be offensively doing damage in), or things like Swarm, where the blind is an incidental effect that will never affect something big unless the other person is bad.

well, if you’ve got robot reflexes, you could probably use some of the quicker cast time blinds like Well of Darkness to take out an Earthshaker

i don’t know how many terminators play necro tho, they’d probably be better off with thief

Blinds are active defense though.

Talk to any thief or ranger running birds, and that IS an active form of damage negation, and if you’re not willing to examine your surroundings and learn move choreography to time your blinds right, then you need to seriously re-evaluate your stance here seeing as that’s what defines good players from bad ones who get stomped by getting hit by CC in the first place.

And you wouldn’t be behind every other profession in blinds. I do believe the only profession capable of beating out the necro in terms of blind application potential is the thief unless specifically built for applying blind.

DeceiverX.8361:

Blinds are active defense though.

Talk to any thief or ranger running birds, and that IS an active form of damage negation, and if you’re not willing to examine your surroundings and learn move choreography to time your blinds right, then you need to seriously re-evaluate your stance here seeing as that’s what defines good players from bad ones who get stomped by getting hit by CC in the first place.

And you wouldn’t be behind every other profession in blinds. I do believe the only profession capable of beating out the necro in terms of blind application potential is the thief unless specifically built for applying blind.

A Necro who took all the blind access would be an absolutely awful build, in general any build is going to have at most 3 options, plague, deathly swarm, and then either WoD or SoS. I literally listed how many options each class has, and we’re definitely not on the high end, we’re right about the middle.

And it doesnt’ matter if blinds work or not, we’re in the exact same point, which is the entire point of this entire thread (which people seem to blatantly ignore to try to pick at one tiny sentence here and there): Necromancer has, by far, the least active damage negation in the entire game bar none and as such has an even stronger need for stability than other classes, whilst getting only one general way to access it that is not reachable for many builds.

We rely on being not CCed to function, and our only ways to not be CCed rely on us not being CCed. The very mechanics we use to counter CC are countered by CC. This is a problem that does not exist in a single other profession, and we ask for literally the least powerful, most easily countered mechanic to achieve this, but instead people say “well you have a high HP pool so its fair”.

My desk is practically broken with how many times I’ve smashed my head into it after reading some of the posts here.

they just don’t want to give up playing hot potato in spvp the moment they see a necromancer -.-

Bhawb.7408:

DeceiverX.8361:

Blinds are active defense though.

Talk to any thief or ranger running birds, and that IS an active form of damage negation, and if you’re not willing to examine your surroundings and learn move choreography to time your blinds right, then you need to seriously re-evaluate your stance here seeing as that’s what defines good players from bad ones who get stomped by getting hit by CC in the first place.

And you wouldn’t be behind every other profession in blinds. I do believe the only profession capable of beating out the necro in terms of blind application potential is the thief unless specifically built for applying blind.

A Necro who took all the blind access would be an absolutely awful build, in general any build is going to have at most 3 options, plague, deathly swarm, and then either WoD or SoS. I literally listed how many options each class has, and we’re definitely not on the high end, we’re right about the middle.

And it doesnt’ matter if blinds work or not, we’re in the exact same point, which is the entire point of this entire thread (which people seem to blatantly ignore to try to pick at one tiny sentence here and there): Necromancer has, by far, the least active damage negation in the entire game bar none and as such has an even stronger need for stability than other classes, whilst getting only one general way to access it that is not reachable for many builds.

We rely on being not CCed to function, and our only ways to not be CCed rely on us not being CCed. The very mechanics we use to counter CC are countered by CC. This is a problem that does not exist in a single other profession, and we ask for literally the least powerful, most easily countered mechanic to achieve this, but instead people say “well you have a high HP pool so its fair”.

My desk is practically broken with how many times I’ve smashed my head into it after reading some of the posts here.

This ^ a million billion trillion times this ^. Please read this anet. Thanks for summing it up well Bhawb.

I didnt include blind because it doesnt work on bosses and is easily cleansed by players with auto attacks. But I suppose I can add a few more things to that list just make you guys realise how separate necro is from the other 7 classes. Ill update the list with blinds and cc later today. The necro is clearly the odd class out when you compare these things. Even things like weakness, chill, regen, prot and stab are on similar or lower levels of access than the rest of the classes. So wheres the thing necro has clearly the most access to?

I still dont understand why its the same class which lacks things rather than it being more spread out among classes. Why is it the necro that lacks utility, cleave, active defence and mobility. I mean what do necros have that is so strong that they cant have good access to a single one of those core game mechanics? Because it definately isnt deathshroud.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Why is it the necro that lacks utility, cleave, active defence and mobility.

Just the things you cite:

• Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm provide two forms of teleport. Walk is actually very versatile, as it can emulate Mesmer Portal for a much-shorter-CD version of Jumping Puzzle safety net, though ofc it’s somewhat ghetto-version in that it’s personal-only. It also allows some safety nets around keep defence.
• Staff AA “cleaves”. I think people just overestimate cleave. It’s just three targets in a cone in front of you. Staff is in a line, that’s not so different, I do fine on my Mesmer-GS and Scepter with a very similar mechanic (I have to target the last target in the line manually, so mine is a tad slower). Yeah it’s no melee-cleave, but the Staff is a very AE-centric weapon, so when I need cleaving attacks, staff is there to provide.
• Active defence? Like on-demand Protection, repeated cleansing or transmuting conditions, purging the offensive buffs off enemies, fear-wall-blocking, fear, and … saved it for last, the entirety of Death Shroud?
• Utility is the thing Necro is really focused on. Their whole problem in PvE is that no one requires utility, which is why my Necro is a rather PvP-centric char. But assuming it’d be required… wow. Marks, Wells, AE rezz, condition spreading, pulling, chilling, interrupting, protection, weakness… Necros have a lot of utility. And it’s quite well-focused, their focus is on condition- and boon-control.

Seriously. though PvE needs a redesign to actually challenge this, Necro is closer to how balance should be oriented than any other class except maybe Elementalist. It’s set up extremely well, with a clear design theme but a mixed layer of various abilities on top, a quite synergetic class mechanic, good graphical representations, and overall a nice identity.
The one big flaw is life siphoning.

Carighan.6758:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Why is it the necro that lacks utility, cleave, active defence and mobility.

Just the things you cite:

• Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm provide two forms of teleport. Walk is actually very versatile, as it can emulate Mesmer Portal for a much-shorter-CD version of Jumping Puzzle safety net, though ofc it’s somewhat ghetto-version in that it’s personal-only. It also allows some safety nets around keep defence.
• Staff AA “cleaves”. I think people just overestimate cleave. It’s just three targets in a cone in front of you. Staff is in a line, that’s not so different, I do fine on my Mesmer-GS and Scepter with a very similar mechanic (I have to target the last target in the line manually, so mine is a tad slower). Yeah it’s no melee-cleave, but the Staff is a very AE-centric weapon, so when I need cleaving attacks, staff is there to provide.
• Active defence? Like on-demand Protection, repeated cleansing or transmuting conditions, purging the offensive buffs off enemies, fear-wall-blocking, fear, and … saved it for last, the entirety of Death Shroud?
• Utility is the thing Necro is really focused on. Their whole problem in PvE is that no one requires utility, which is why my Necro is a rather PvP-centric char. But assuming it’d be required… wow. Marks, Wells, AE rezz, condition spreading, pulling, chilling, interrupting, protection, weakness… Necros have a lot of utility. And it’s quite well-focused, their focus is on condition- and boon-control.

Seriously. though PvE needs a redesign to actually challenge this, Necro is closer to how balance should be oriented than any other class except maybe Elementalist. It’s set up extremely well, with a clear design theme but a mixed layer of various abilities on top, a quite synergetic class mechanic, good graphical representations, and overall a nice identity.
The one big flaw is life siphoning.

Staff auto is not cleave. Its not even splash damage. Pierce is a poor alternative to cleave. Its also terrible damage so you cant really justify the no cleave arguement with the notion that you should just use staff aoe. All other classes have decent damage cleaves or decent high damage sustained aoe. Necro has burst aoe and semi sustained condi aoe but no sustained high damage aoe or cleave.

When I say active defence I am more specifically referring to damage avoidance. Protection and other damage reduction methods, while often activated with skills, is closer to passive defence as you simply reduce the damage you take. There is no timing of skills/evades to completely avoid damage. Cleansing isnt active defence, its something you do after you have already taken the hit. Thats reactive defence. Fear is active defence and i said i will update the list to include cc and blinds later on. I already included Deathshroud in the list, thats one method and it has its weaknesses and strengths. But being the sole method of damage avoidance is a bit imbalanced especially when it doesnt actually avoid anything.

Necro does not have utility. Or atleast it doesnt have anywhere near the utility other classes have. Ill give you examples of what i consider utility. Combo fields and finishers that produce beneficial results such as condi cleanse, might, stealth, healing and swiftness stacking etc. Other utility includes portal, stealth, reflects, group boons, group cleanses, debuffs, mobility, unique buffs (spotter, empower allies, banners, spirits etc), crowd control and mob placement cc (temporal curtain, binding blades etc). The only utility necro has is some debuffs, some cc and some limited high cooldown condi cleanses. These are very accessible to all classes (they are the core utility every class has) along with plenty of other more meaningful forms of utility. Necro needs something a bit more unique in regards to utility.

I have to say, yes, by your definition Necromancers don’t have any real utility. Only you conveniently list pretty much every single utility you can think of which Necros have little off (we do have cleansing fields, for example), while not listing anything Necros have.

In other words, if you cut your boxes the right way, you can put the desired negative label on just about anything. :P

I mentioned necros have cleansing. But I also said that thats a core type of utility that every class has. You missed my point. And yeah it is a bit dependant on personal definitions. But it is another area where necro has less variety of utility than other classes. All classes can cleanse, all classes can cc and all classes can debuff. Most classes can also provide group buffs, unique buffs, special utility (portal/stealth/auras) and combos (necro cant). Necro combos do exist but im sure you are aware of how limited they are and what builds you are forced into to get them.

does stability block spectral grasp? it seems to always get blocked unless the person has no idea I am there

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

does stability block spectral grasp? it seems to always get blocked unless the person has no idea I am there

I don’t think it blocks it; the pull effect will be hit with Immune. I’m also not sure how the Chill works.

Sarrs.4831:

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

does stability block spectral grasp? it seems to always get blocked unless the person has no idea I am there

I don’t think it blocks it; the pull effect will be hit with Immune. I’m also not sure how the Chill works.

cant even pull someone into my well……. its like every cc a necro has is pointless

Spectral grasp bugs 90% of the time even when it hits someone with no stab/block/invuln. Its pretty much always due to the terrain.

and we are third for a balance thread -.-

Staff aa does good damage with a power build.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Staff aa does good damage with a power build.

No it doesnt.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Staff aa does good damage with a power build.

.66 Power coefficient on necro staff AA (piercing). For comparison, Ele staff is .85 (splash) in Fire, .3 in water (splash heal), .66 in air (plus bouncing) and .5 in Earth (plus weakness and 100% finisher)

The two attunements that are lower power coefficients are the support and defense attunements. Even the control attunement (Air) has equal power scaling (and situationally higher as the bolt bounces back).

So no, necro staff auto does not deal “good” damage.

And staff ele has high dmg aoe skills on low cooldowns to suppliment the auto attack. Necro doesnt. Its a pure utility weapon.

Bhawb.7408:

A Necro who took all the blind access would be an absolutely awful build, in general any build is going to have at most 3 options, plague, deathly swarm, and then either WoD or SoS. I literally listed how many options each class has, and we’re definitely not on the high end, we’re right about the middle.

Would it? Is seems to me that this is your subjective opinion. Yet in all of your comments and comparisons, you state X profession has this or that active defence. You assume they function well and are in every build as well.

So which is it? Are you comparing professions, balance, or builds. Because this is a discussion about a specific skill and stability. We are not discussing builds. But your the one that brought up what ptofessions have access to, ignoring whether are not they are good for a build, and posted to us as if they are used in every build for the point you are trying to make. Why do you deny that same argument when it works against your point?

Bhawb.7408:

And it doesnt’ matter if blinds work or not,

It does matter. As you have stated it as fact, that they do not work , as have others. Thus it represents context for those reading the entire thread in order to comment.

Bhawb.7408:

we’re in the exact same point, which is the entire point of this entire thread (which people seem to blatantly ignore to try to pick at one tiny sentence here and there): Necromancer has, by far, the least active damage negation in the entire game bar none and as such has an even stronger need for stability than other classes, whilst getting only one general way to access it that is not reachable for many builds.

Active defence? Like on-demand Protection, repeated cleansing or transmuting conditions, purging the offensive buffs off enemies, fear-wall-blocking, fear, and … saved it for last, the entirety of Death Shroud?

Perhaps you should read the actual title of the thread, and the original post. This threads topic has nothing to do with damage negation. It has to do with whether or not it is balance to put stability on a specific skill, and to a lesser degree, the necromancer related to CC.

The OP mentions nothing of “damage negation” as you claim it does. As a matter of fact, damage is not mention in either the title or the OP. Not certain where you got your misunderstanding. Perhaps for the sake of the discussion, a review is in order?

Bhawb.7408:

We rely on being not CCed to function, and our only ways to not be CCed rely on us not being CCed. The very mechanics we use to counter CC are countered by CC. This is a problem that does not exist in a single other profession,

This is absolutely incorrect. Lets have a quick example. Condi engineer or mesmer encounters a necro. They apply condition damage. Necro cleanses it, yet at the same time, sends it back to said mesmer or engineer. The two professions with the lest condi cleanse. These two professions use soft CC or condi CC as their main ability to control a fight. Yet as a necro, we can cleanse it and put it on them. That is countering their counter.

Bhawb.7408:

we ask for literally the least powerful, most easily countered mechanic to achieve this, but instead people say “well you have a high HP pool so its fair”.

How do you counter stability on the profession that is the best at countering conditions? Soft CC doesn’t work, as they clear it and move it to you. As well, they have the highest health pool, and a secondary health pool.

Bhawb.7408:

My desk is practically broken with how many times I’ve smashed my head into it after reading some of the posts here.

Sorry to hear you are having trouble accepting that others have varying opinions from you. Perhaps you should seek some help. It is never a good sign when someone harms themselves or their property simply because others in the world disagree with their opinion.

spoj.9672:

And staff ele has high dmg aoe skills on low cooldowns to suppliment the auto attack. Necro doesnt. Its a pure utility weapon.

Umm, what does this have to do with the necromancer? But if you wish to be serious, all of that can be blocked completely. Marks can be made unblockable.

How hard is it to understand that requiring major investment into Soul Reaping just for a short stability isn’t an option when the traits are all over the tree anyway? You have to have certain things to make a build work, and Soul Reaping is the least desirable because of how poorly the traitlines are designed. (Let’s put 5% off condition damage as healing into the Power traitline, that’ll teach the plebs!) Death Shroud isn’t nearly as useful as people make it seem without heavily traiting for its use, thus making you quite bad in teamfighting. The low armor of the Necromancer makes them susceptible to burst, even if you have 3s of Stability. Speaking of Foot in the Grave, it does give you 3s of Stability but it does not break stuns. This is why people want an active button to press to gain a little Stability, so they can strategize when facing a hammer-swinger. At the moment it’s a checklist: Do you have full LF, and is he bad? If either is no, you’re going to have a very bad time. If you want to capitalize on the 3s Stability, you can’t stay in Death Shroud. You flick it on and off, thus losing any absorption it could otherwise provide. It’s not good functionality. And yes I’m going to refer to Balanced Stance because kitten you, that’s why.

The elite skills that grant the Necro Stability are used for entirely other reasons, and they disable heal and the utilities for the duration. The Stability is lost the moment you cancel the transform.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Would it? Is seems to me that this is your subjective opinion. Yet in all of your comments and comparisons, you state X profession has this or that active defence. You assume they function well and are in every build as well.

So which is it? Are you comparing professions, balance, or builds. Because this is a discussion about a specific skill and stability. We are not discussing builds. But your the one that brought up what ptofessions have access to, ignoring whether are not they are good for a build, and posted to us as if they are used in every build for the point you are trying to make. Why do you deny that same argument when it works against your point?

My intent was to point out that all other classes have the option to spec or slot for active damage negation. Necro doesnt even have the choice even if they stick all their trait points in one line. Is that balanced? I dont know. But i thought the entire point of this game was any class can play any role. So how does a necro do that without access to such an integral part of the games defence system.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Active defence? Like on-demand Protection, repeated cleansing or transmuting conditions, purging the offensive buffs off enemies, fear-wall-blocking, fear, and … saved it for last, the entirety of Death Shroud?

Perhaps you should read the actual title of the thread, and the original post. This threads topic has nothing to do with damage negation. It has to do with whether or not it is balance to put stability on a specific skill, and to a lesser degree, the necromancer related to CC.

The OP mentions nothing of “damage negation” as you claim it does. As a matter of fact, damage is not mention in either the title or the OP. Not certain where you got your misunderstanding. Perhaps for the sake of the discussion, a review is in order?

I was referring to damage negation when i created that list. I said it earlier, protection and condi cleanse are more passive or reactive forms of defence. The idea of active defence is to completely avoid the damage or reduce its impact. Protection does this in a minor way, but most sources of protection are long duration and spammable so I personally consider it passive.

dancingmonkey.4902:

This is absolutely incorrect. Lets have a quick example. Condi engineer or mesmer encounters a necro. They apply condition damage. Necro cleanses it, yet at the same time, sends it back to said mesmer or engineer. The two professions with the lest condi cleanse. These two professions use soft CC or condi CC as their main ability to control a fight. Yet as a necro, we can cleanse it and put it on them. That is countering their counter.

Poor example. Soft CC and condi CC is not a necro counter so it makes sense that necro can simply throw it back at them. If they used hard CC then necro wouldnt be able to do anything about it. Besides both engi and mesmer have plenty of hard CC.

dancingmonkey.4902:

How do you counter stability on the profession that is the best at countering conditions? Soft CC doesn’t work, as they clear it and move it to you. As well, they have the highest health pool, and a secondary health pool.

Corrupt/strip/steal or simply wait for it to run out. Its not like were asking for perma stab. Were suggesting a few seconds on a 60s(48s traited) cd skill. The idea is that we have less pressure if we slot this skill. You still counter the necro in the same way but its a little harder because they have extra stab. But they also have a harder time killing you because they slotted a stab skill instead of more pressure. Is that not obvious?

dancingmonkey.4902:

spoj.9672:

And staff ele has high dmg aoe skills on low cooldowns to suppliment the auto attack. Necro doesnt. Its a pure utility weapon.

Umm, what does this have to do with the necromancer? But if you wish to be serious, all of that can be blocked completely. Marks can be made unblockable.

Forgive me. We went a bit offtopic but that post was relevant to the ones above it.

Oakwind.6187:

How hard is it to understand that requiring major investment into Soul Reaping just for a short stability isn’t an option when the traits are all over the tree anyway?

You mean “you feel” it isn’t an option. It is in fact, an option. If it is not an option, then it means it is literally unattainable. Similarly to how this is your opinion, and not an actual fact.

Oakwind.6187:

You have to have certain things to make a build work, and Soul Reaping is the least desirable because of how poorly the traitlines are designed.

Then suggest how to fix the trait line, instead of demanding changes that most players feel are out of balance.

Oakwind.6187:

Death Shroud isn’t nearly as useful as people make it seem without heavily traiting for its use, thus making you quite bad in teamfighting. The low armor of the Necromancer makes them susceptible to burst, even if you have 3s of Stability. Speaking of Foot in the Grave, it does give you 3s of Stability but it does not break stuns. This is why people want an active button to press to gain a little Stability, so they can strategize when facing a hammer-swinger.

Thus use more utilities that break stun, just lick the other professions with limited or no stability do. It isn’t very reasonable to complain about stuns if your not using the stun breakers you already have.

Then again you mention team fights, but forget that you have team members designed to give you stability. Yet your suggestions makes that irrelevant and limits there value. That is not a very team oriented mentality at all if you ask me.

Oakwind.6187:

At the moment it’s a checklist: Do you have full LF, and is he bad? If either is no, you’re going to have a very bad time. If you want to capitalize on the 3s Stability, you can’t stay in Death Shroud. You flick it on and off, thus losing any absorption it could otherwise provide. It’s not good functionality. And yes I’m going to refer to Balanced Stance because kitten you, that’s why.

So what does a warriors balance or imbalance have to do with the necromancer?

Oakwind.6187:

The elite skills that grant the Necro Stability are used for entirely other reasons, and they disable heal and the utilities for the duration. The Stability is lost the moment you cancel the transform.

Yet it is stability, in a long duration, that is available to other professions in such durations, and posters claim the profession has no stability.

What are these “other reasons” necro stability is used for? I was under the understanding that stability negated non condition control effects. I would love to have you explain how that is used for “entirely other reasons” as you suggest.

coglin.1867:

Oakwind.6187:

At the moment it’s a checklist: Do you have full LF, and is he bad? If either is no, you’re going to have a very bad time. If you want to capitalize on the 3s Stability, you can’t stay in Death Shroud. You flick it on and off, thus losing any absorption it could otherwise provide. It’s not good functionality. And yes I’m going to refer to Balanced Stance because kitten you, that’s why.

So what does a warriors balance or imbalance have to do with the necromancer?

In this particular case, you could easily substitute “Warrior” for pretty much any profession. Engineers are the most likely after Warriors to have lots of hard CC, but Guardians, Eles, and Mesmers all have high CC builds where the exact same questions apply.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

coglin.1867:

Oakwind.6187:

At the moment it’s a checklist: Do you have full LF, and is he bad? If either is no, you’re going to have a very bad time. If you want to capitalize on the 3s Stability, you can’t stay in Death Shroud. You flick it on and off, thus losing any absorption it could otherwise provide. It’s not good functionality. And yes I’m going to refer to Balanced Stance because kitten you, that’s why.

So what does a warriors balance or imbalance have to do with the necromancer?

In this particular case, you could easily substitute “Warrior” for pretty much any profession. Engineers are the most likely after Warriors to have lots of hard CC, but Guardians, Eles, and Mesmers all have high CC builds where the exact same questions apply.

Substitute them for what purpose? I ask because the context is very relevant. Are we talking dungeons? Designated boon stripping in WvW groups? Condition heavy debunker? World bosses?

The boon corruption for front liners + AoE transmuting of condition into boons + unblockable marks (loaded with soft CC) are invaluable in a coordinated group. At least in my experience. In the WvW group context this is extremely powerful. As well, they have stacked stability from the guardians/warriors, are stay 1200 away from the front line and have no concern of being CCed at all anyway.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

coglin.1867:

Oakwind.6187:

At the moment it’s a checklist: Do you have full LF, and is he bad? If either is no, you’re going to have a very bad time. If you want to capitalize on the 3s Stability, you can’t stay in Death Shroud. You flick it on and off, thus losing any absorption it could otherwise provide. It’s not good functionality. And yes I’m going to refer to Balanced Stance because kitten you, that’s why.

So what does a warriors balance or imbalance have to do with the necromancer?

In this particular case, you could easily substitute “Warrior” for pretty much any profession. Engineers are the most likely after Warriors to have lots of hard CC, but Guardians, Eles, and Mesmers all have high CC builds where the exact same questions apply.

Substitute them for what purpose? I ask because the context is very relevant. Are we talking dungeons? Designated boon stripping in WvW groups? Condition heavy debunker? World bosses?

The boon corruption for front liners + AoE transmuting of condition into boons + unblockable marks (loaded with soft CC) are invaluable in a coordinated group. At least in my experience. In the WvW group context this is extremely powerful. As well, they have stacked stability from the guardians/warriors, are stay 1200 away from the front line and have no concern of being CCed at all anyway.

Checking back to the first refrenced post helps

The context was a PvP setting, showing how Foot in the Grave really isn’t good stability. To get any sort of good CC negation, the necro has to flash death shroud, which makes them extremely vulnerable to everything else. While the situation given was against a Hambow warrior, any profession could have been substituted for “Warrior” and the same point would remain true.

Necros are in a great spot for WvW, which is why it’s referred to as the GWEN zerg meta and not the GWEE, GWEM, GWER, or GWET meta. The reason for that is because they have lots of people that are peeling for them naturally (and lots of life force from deaths). In small scale PvP, this isn’t the case.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Checking back to the first refrenced post helps

The context was a PvP setting, showing how Foot in the Grave really isn’t good stability. To get any sort of good CC negation, the necro has to flash death shroud, which makes them extremely vulnerable to everything else. While the situation given was against a Hambow warrior, any profession could have been substituted for “Warrior” and the same point would remain true.

I re-read the original post of this thread, and its topic. neither of which designate sPvP. Honestly the OP should have specified. Thus, I did not believe every post had to specifically encompass one game mode.

Do you consider the engineer solid at CC ? I do. Yet the community acknowledges necros as a hard counter to the profession as a whole. My issue here is that individual professional stability for the necro is not the problem. Builds like hambow are the problem

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Necros are in a great spot for WvW, which is why it’s referred to as the GWEN zerg meta and not the GWEE, GWEM, GWER, or GWET meta. The reason for that is because they have lots of people that are peeling for them naturally (and lots of life force from deaths). In small scale PvP, this isn’t the case.

Yes, I agree, they are great in WvW.

In small scale PvP a need for personal professional stability is not the case either. It depends heavily on what build one is fighting against. Hambows are tough, but S/S warrior are fairly easy game. CC/pwer build engies are tough. Condi engies are easy pickins’. Blackwater style mesmers are not that tough, but S/S power mesmers are.

I feel to suggest necros have trouble in general is not the case. They have trouble with certain builds, while dominating others.

They do not need stability any more then thieves, mesmers, or ele’s.

I disagree with you on the last point. The fact a necro’s defense is all “suck it up like a man” instead of avoidance means they are naturally more susceptible to CC, since you can’t “suck it up like a man”. Because a necro’s sustain relies on attacking, it makes them naturally weak to CC. Combined, you have a class where CC is an extreme weakness. But, this is not supposed to be the necro’s weakness: the inability to disengage if things go poorly and the general inability to burst damage (though some people try) is.

If Necros had good stability access or more than just Reaper’s Protection to discourage CC against them, they wouldn’t need a dedicated peeler in PvP, which means they could make it onto teams based on their own merits and drawbacks, rather than having to justify two slots of five.

WvW is a whole other beast to tackle. It has structural problems that aren’t only because of the Necromancer. For sPvP purposes, the “infernal flasher” as I like to call it to get the 3 seconds isn’t really good. That means that you don’t essentially use LF for what it’s meant to be used. One could argue that it’s a choice, but there’s the 6 point trait investment. There needs to be an utility that can be picked if Death Shroud isn’t going to be a core focus of the build. Doubly so since LF doesn’t replenish if you die, and since you cannot have your actual HP altered through healing while in Death Shroud.

Okay, WvW GWEN meta is stupid, there’s little contest. sPvP however requires a lot from the team to support and babysit the Necromancer because they’re so vulnerable. There’s no reason a team would want that. In WvW Necros can run with the frontline, but in sPvP Stability-sharing cannot be done just to babysit the Necro. It’s much better to take an Engineer who can survive alone, or another profession along those lines.

I have yet to see. A valid reason why necros should not have access to stability? ?

alamore.1974:

I have yet to see. A valid reason why necros should not have access to stability? ?

• People’s ego and a whole lot of dialectic loops.

• Secret agents working under cover in the forums to engage and hold off the community minorities.

By minority, do you mean how out of the millions of players who purchased the game, 17 of them are requesting this?

By agents working the forums to hold off the minorities, do you refer to those who simply disagree with you based on their experience, trying to point out the fact that your the minority?

I have yet to see a valid reason this skill needs to be given stability.

Just a question, what kind of authority do you have?

I’m not quite sure why people even argue against this.

I remember that Arenanet acknowledged that Necros have a problem with CCs ages ago.
I believe the exact quote was “Getting CCd as a Necro is like getting hit by a train”.
It burned itself into my mind due to how true it is, although I don’t remember where exactly it was mentioned, having been a year or so ago.

The most likely reason Necros have poor defenses vs CC is that they once had a Minor Trait called “Shade” that gave complete CC immunity while in Death Shroud.

I think that after this trait was deemed OP and removed pre-launch not enough CC defenses were given to mend the hole it left.
Whereas the more mobile Professions have escapes and evades for sticky situations the slow, low health Guardian was given good access to Stability and blocks to help avoid CCs and damage in their own way.

The Necromancer, however, relies on two large health pools instead of active defenses.
This cuts Necro apart from every other Profession in how their defenses work, which in turn makes balancing them very difficult.

Necromancer was left with defenses that are outstanding against constant, light damage but horrendous against big spikes of it.
This is especially noticeable in PvE where some of the nastier creatures can easily squish anyone, even a Necro through DS if not blocked, evaded or reflected.
On the flipside in a WvW zerg or a Dungeon part where you face 10+mobs playing Necro tend to be a cakewalk, you get fed insane amounts of Life Force and the big health pool can shrug off occasional hits from lesser mobs.

All this chatter about the damage part is pretty off-topic, though!

The important thing here to note is that Necros are intended to take a lot of hits.
Taking a lot of hits means that you can get hit by a lot of CCs since you aren’t Stealthed/Blocking/Evade spamming/Escaping at the speed of light.

In turn there should be build options available that give defense against said tactics while sacrificing something else.
Since the Necro isn’t gonna get Vigor+Blocks+Escapes anytime soon Stability would fit the bill.
(Along with better Cripple/Immob removal traits/skills…)

The whole point of having such an easily accessible build system is that everything the game and other players throw at you should have a reasonable counter.

Saying “Necro has a counter/weakness in X, without it they’d be OP!” shouldn’t even be a proper statement.
It should be “Necro build X has a weakness/counter in Y and Z but it’s really strong against build W! But Necros using this other build need a different counter.”

Necros were intended to be THE attrition Profession.
Slow, but incredibly hard to escape from, extremely hard to kill due to their Death Shroud and Life Steals.
At one point, I’ve been told, a Necro could bunker 5 people alone by himself!
Overpowered? Yes, for sure! Nerfed rightfully! …but way too hard.

The ability to heal through DS was completely removed, Shade was removed… and Necro was the least finished Profession at launch due to the massive changes they had gone.

Somehow later on Necros went from sturdy, slow, hard-to-kill attrition Profession into “Focus that guy first!”-casters with insane Condition output.

Necros are powerful, but for the wrong reasons.
They are also vulnerable… for the wrong reasons.

They are probably the furthest away from their intended design compared to every other Profession.
The only skill I can think of that still encompasses what Necro was meant to be is Plague.
It’s deadly, makes you tanky… kills slowly.

LastDay.3524:

Necros were intended to be THE attrition Profession.
Slow, but incredibly hard to escape from, extremely hard to kill due to their Death Shroud and Life Steals.
At one point, I’ve been told, a Necro could bunker 5 people alone by himself!
Overpowered? Yes, for sure! Nerfed rightfully! …but way too hard.

Necro was able to bunker 5 people solo not because of Shade, nor because of lifesteal, but because of the following: Ritual of Protection pulsed with wells instead of being on cast, DS itself counted as a stun break AND most importantly, people were bloody stupid back then. Mesmers didnt understand how blurred frenzy worked (which was a immunity and not a evade back then) and were using stuff like Scepter/Torch, Guardians did consecration builds (which just recently turned actually viable), Sword and shield was like the “true warrior” build back then, etc.

If youd retrun it and implement the same mechanic that confounding suggestion (mesmer GM, that on applying daze has a chance to stun, but it still applies the daze effect on the cast skill if used as interrupt thus triggering all effects of it) and most medium sized bosses with cc immunity have (that using cc on them still interrupts their channels), thus making a GM trait which gives immunity to control loss in DS, but not to getting interrupted or cced with conditions. It would be seriously all it takes to make necros fine in terms of everything but bunkering (for which lifesteal values would need to be raised by around 40-50).

dancingmonkey.4902:

By minority, do you mean how out of the millions of players who purchased the game, 17 of them are requesting this?

By agents working the forums to hold off the minorities, do you refer to those who simply disagree with you based on their experience, trying to point out the fact that your the minority?

I have yet to see a valid reason this skill needs to be given stability.

I have yet to see a valid reason why this skill should not be given stability… all I see is oh but you have blinds.. so do many other professions that can use it quicker and more often

oh but you have cripples and chills, so do other professions…..

but you can spread conditions!… other classes can do it better now..

you have 2 dodges use them!! guess what so does everyone else but some other professions can go crazy with them

but you can soak that damage up with deathshroud!… at the expense of our heal,utility,skills… and once it is gone then what?. other professions have similar skills in the form of blocks and immunitys that DO NOT LOCK THEM OUT OF HEALING AND SKILLS.

and to top it all off, for a necro to even use every blind, fear, cripple, chill, it has (ignoring the fact you wouldn’t even kill a fly) to survive, it first needs to be able to cast it which is not possible while having chain cc cast on us

so please people that disagree with this suggestion give me a reason why the ability to give ourselves stability at the cost of a utility slot (and by consequence lose out on offence) on a long cooldown is op even tho it is seemingly fine if we have it from other professions sharing it with a necro

elementalist can literally shut me down so I do nothing but sit on my face or give them boons/do nothing from their various defence skills combine that with quick castings vs my slow and extremely animated casts… need I say more