Guild Wars 2

caveman.5840:

whats the point of wasting a utility slot for sick em
when u have a stealth tracking rapid fire

The point is obvious, a good Thief never gets caught by zerker LB Rapid fire in a balanced situation, Thief is the class that should always initiate, if played correctly. Sic’em is for builds which can withstand the initial burst to delay Thief’s ability to re-stealth.

There’s your point, Sic’em has barely any value to zerker LB ranger, because he can’t survive the initial burst against a skilled Thief.

STRanger.5120:

caveman.5840:

whats the point of wasting a utility slot for sick em
when u have a stealth tracking rapid fire

The point is obvious, a good Thief never gets caught by zerker LB Rapid fire in a balanced situation, Thief is the class that should always initiate, if played correctly. Sic’em is for builds which can withstand the initial burst to delay Thief’s ability to re-stealth.

There’s your point, Sic’em has barely any value to zerker LB ranger, because he can’t survive the initial burst against a skilled Thief.

You are talking about a balanced situation but then you take into consideration that the ranger is a complete noob and the thief is skilled, doesn’t look like a balanced situation to me.
In a balanced match 1vs1 the LB ranger can survive 1 or 2 burst easly, sic’em can be used when the thief is at low health to prevent him to stealth —> reset.

Sic’em is a very good skill now but very situational, most of the time the average ranger doesn’t run with it unless is hunting perma stealth thiefs.

sminkiottone.6972:

You are talking about a balanced situation but then you take into consideration that the ranger is a complete noob and the thief is skilled, doesn’t look like a balanced situation to me.
In a balanced match 1vs1 the LB ranger can survive 1 or 2 burst easly, sic’em can be used when the thief is at low health to prevent him to stealth —> reset.

Sic’em is a very good skill now but very situational, most of the time the average ranger doesn’t run with it unless is hunting perma stealth thiefs.

LB zerk ranger can survive maybe one Thief burst, then he’s insta-gibbed by heartseeker.
Remember, talking about the so-called “god mode” 6/6/x/x/x ranger build. This build has practically no defences if he wants to be bursty in a way ppl are complaining about.
He stands no chance against a Thief who’s aware of his stuff….

STRanger.5120:

sminkiottone.6972:

You are talking about a balanced situation but then you take into consideration that the ranger is a complete noob and the thief is skilled, doesn’t look like a balanced situation to me.
In a balanced match 1vs1 the LB ranger can survive 1 or 2 burst easly, sic’em can be used when the thief is at low health to prevent him to stealth —> reset.

Sic’em is a very good skill now but very situational, most of the time the average ranger doesn’t run with it unless is hunting perma stealth thiefs.

LB zerk ranger can survive maybe one Thief burst, then he’s insta-gibbed by heartseeker.
Remember, talking about the so-called “god mode” 6/6/x/x/x ranger build. This build has practically no defences if he wants to be bursty in a way ppl are complaining about.
He stands no chance against a Thief who’s aware of his stuff….

Yeah a 6/6/x/x/x in berserker is completely glass cannon and shouldn’t survive more than 1 burst from a skilled thief but, it’s only good for trolling bad people or sniping off point in PvP, imo people are complaining about all LB build out there.

They don’t even know what they are talking about, more than once I received a PM from the guy I killed saying “OP LB ranger 22221111” while I wasn’t even using a LB lol, a guy even reply to me “how do you stealth then ?” because he didn’t even know about the trapper runes, so I guess that for most complains about the LB ranger is just a biased whine.

sminkiottone.6972:

STRanger.5120:

sminkiottone.6972:

You are talking about a balanced situation but then you take into consideration that the ranger is a complete noob and the thief is skilled, doesn’t look like a balanced situation to me.
In a balanced match 1vs1 the LB ranger can survive 1 or 2 burst easly, sic’em can be used when the thief is at low health to prevent him to stealth —> reset.

Sic’em is a very good skill now but very situational, most of the time the average ranger doesn’t run with it unless is hunting perma stealth thiefs.

LB zerk ranger can survive maybe one Thief burst, then he’s insta-gibbed by heartseeker.
Remember, talking about the so-called “god mode” 6/6/x/x/x ranger build. This build has practically no defences if he wants to be bursty in a way ppl are complaining about.
He stands no chance against a Thief who’s aware of his stuff….

Yeah a 6/6/x/x/x in berserker is completely glass cannon and shouldn’t survive more than 1 burst from a skilled thief but, it’s only good for trolling bad people or sniping off point in PvP, imo people are complaining about all LB build out there.

They don’t even know what they are talking about, more than once I received a PM from the guy I killed saying “OP LB ranger 22221111” while I wasn’t even using a LB lol, a guy even reply to me “how do you stealth then ?” because he didn’t even know about the trapper runes, so I guess that for most complains about the LB ranger is just a biased whine.

Yeah, a lot of ppl still haven’t realized that 6/6/6/6/6 “godly” build doesn’t exists, I think that they just don’t want to know the reality….
Which class is the next one? Any tips?

Cygnus.6903:

dancingmonkey.4902:

nerf-fear-induced-response

Seriously dude, a grenade engineer? We are talking sniping, not locking somebody down and bursting. A ranger can Rapid Fire from 1500 range without any need for locking the target down. A grenade engineer makes these big red circles on the ground telling you to move out of the way… No need even to dodge.

And?

The point was that the other poster claimed that no other profession can do that damage at 1500 range. No one qualified it with any given situation. You went out of your way to read a great deal into it, simply to lash out at the post. If you have something personal with the poster, take to PMs, but do not create a new scenario and use it as some sideways evidence to the one already presented.

Cygnus.6903:

Thieves can ‘snipe’ somebody, but not without serious danger for retaliation. You have to get up close and personal, which leaves you open to AoE, focus fire, lockdown, etc.

Right, because rapid fire doesn’t get effected by retaliation right? No one cares about thieves taking retaliation damage when compared to a skill that can take 10X retaliation damage from multiple targets.

Cygnus.6903:

Rapid Fire in it’s current form is just another stupid crutch thing in this game that allows the terribads to have some fun in a WvW setting. Making it so that it can not track through stealth anymore would be a start, but not a fix at all.

So stealth is an acceptable "terribads crutch*, but rapid fire is not?

Cygnus.6903:

How they could give Hundred Blades-like damage to a class at 1500 range… There is no justification IMO. Especially when you look at the real things that are wrong with ranger.

Sure there is. There is stealth, dodges, smoke screen in this case, since we are making a direct thief correlation. Reflect from your team mates, because you know the game is not balanced around 1v1 dueling style of fights. If you cannot close the gap while in stealth, then you deserve what you get. If your complaining about being attacked while unaware, and referring to a situation in which a ranger surprises you and gets the jump on you, well that seems a bit hypocritical when looking at it from the “stealth and attack when they cannot see it coming” professions perspective.

there is no way in hell that stealth should detarget oneself

I just want to say now

That RF has always tracked stealthed targets. So does mesmer GS auto, and other multi-hit effects.

Actually, since the rework to RF, it is less effective on stealthed targets since the old skill used to last longer and therefore used to track stealthed targets for longer, making all attempts to reposition while stealthed futile. Currently, it lets the stealth-user get a reposition attempt/lose target.

Unless, that is, OP is whining about how Shadow’s Rejuvenation or playing a PU mesmer no longer means he’s safe from RF’s damage by facetanking it without actually using a dodge roll.

Stand The Wall.6987:

there is no way in hell that stealth should detarget oneself

but it already does for literally every other type of attack.

ranged channeled attacks are the only exception to this in the entire game, and it makes no sense for that seeing as they already have the initial advantage of being ranged burst.

DeceiverX.8361:

I just want to say now

That RF has always tracked stealthed targets. So does mesmer GS auto, and other multi-hit effects.

Actually, since the rework to RF, it is less effective on stealthed targets since the old skill used to last longer and therefore used to track stealthed targets for longer, making all attempts to reposition while stealthed futile. Currently, it lets the stealth-user get a reposition attempt/lose target.

Unless, that is, OP is whining about how Shadow’s Rejuvenation or playing a PU mesmer no longer means he’s safe from RF’s damage by facetanking it without actually using a dodge roll.

and yet this still doesn’t explain why rapid fire amongst all other ranged channel skills like unload get to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic almost entirely.

saying “it’s not as bad as it used to be” isn’t something that helps discussion at all.

sinject.4607:

and yet this still doesn’t explain why rapid fire amongst all other ranged channel skills like unload get to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic almost entirely.

How did you make this assumption?
RF is not the only one to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic, every channeled targetted skill does that. Oh man, get your stuff together, really….

STRanger.5120:

sinject.4607:

and yet this still doesn’t explain why rapid fire amongst all other ranged channel skills like unload get to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic almost entirely.

How did you make this assumption?
RF is not the only one to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic, every channeled targetted skill does that. Oh man, get your stuff together, really….

i said that all channeled skills including those like unload track through stealth

it is a profession-crossing mechanic that needs to be changed, especially with the pandemic that is longbow rangers in this game

sinject.4607:

STRanger.5120:

sinject.4607:

and yet this still doesn’t explain why rapid fire amongst all other ranged channel skills like unload get to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic almost entirely.

How did you make this assumption?
RF is not the only one to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic, every channeled targetted skill does that. Oh man, get your stuff together, really….

i said that all channeled skills including those like unload track through stealth

it is a profession-crossing mechanic that needs to be changed, especially with the pandemic that is longbow rangers in this game

Well, the sentence was kinda weird, it made different impression on me, ok then, just a misunderstanding.
However, it doesn’t change the fact that the RF (and all other similar skills) are like that since the release, why is it problem now? Because there are more rangers? That’s hardly an argument m8.
It’s like if I were saying that there’s too much Thieves killing my full zerk Ele in a blink of an eye, which means those are OP and should be nerfed…. Which of course doesn’t make sense….

sinject.4607:

Stand The Wall.6987:

there is no way in hell that stealth should detarget oneself

but it already does for literally every other type of attack.

ranged channeled attacks are the only exception to this in the entire game, and it makes no sense for that seeing as they already have the initial advantage of being ranged burst.

DeceiverX.8361:

I just want to say now

That RF has always tracked stealthed targets. So does mesmer GS auto, and other multi-hit effects.

Actually, since the rework to RF, it is less effective on stealthed targets since the old skill used to last longer and therefore used to track stealthed targets for longer, making all attempts to reposition while stealthed futile. Currently, it lets the stealth-user get a reposition attempt/lose target.

Unless, that is, OP is whining about how Shadow’s Rejuvenation or playing a PU mesmer no longer means he’s safe from RF’s damage by facetanking it without actually using a dodge roll.

and yet this still doesn’t explain why rapid fire amongst all other ranged channel skills like unload get to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic almost entirely.

saying “it’s not as bad as it used to be” isn’t something that helps discussion at all.

And stealth shouldn’t be an end-all defensive mechanic. It de-targets and gives effectively free in-combat repositions. Shadow Arts for thieves and PU on mesmers already gives way too much defense for how accessible the mechanic is to the classes/builds.

Stealth is a hard counter to projectiles since you cannot be hit by new projectile attacks due to the de-target. Multi-hit projectile attacks are the counter to stealth. They’re also usally tied to DPS, so counterplay is dependent on how and when the ranged user deems it necessary to use his ability. Either you can use it to deal damage while they’re revealed/visible and attacking, or use it to counter stealth. It’s really that simple.

sinject.4607:

STRanger.5120:

sinject.4607:

and yet this still doesn’t explain why rapid fire amongst all other ranged channel skills like unload get to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic almost entirely.

How did you make this assumption?
RF is not the only one to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic, every channeled targetted skill does that. Oh man, get your stuff together, really….

i said that all channeled skills including those like unload track through stealth

it is a profession-crossing mechanic that needs to be changed, especially with the pandemic that is longbow rangers in this game

I distinctly remember a “pandemic” of cheese thieves abusing perma stealth with D/P and all we ever heard from them was “L2P”

Substance E.4852:

sinject.4607:

STRanger.5120:

sinject.4607:

and yet this still doesn’t explain why rapid fire amongst all other ranged channel skills like unload get to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic almost entirely.

How did you make this assumption?
RF is not the only one to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic, every channeled targetted skill does that. Oh man, get your stuff together, really….

i said that all channeled skills including those like unload track through stealth

it is a profession-crossing mechanic that needs to be changed, especially with the pandemic that is longbow rangers in this game

I distinctly remember a “pandemic” of cheese thieves abusing perma stealth with D/P and all we ever heard from them was “L2P”

I take it you are newer here. The channel skill has been like that since the game launched.

style.6173:

I take it you are newer here. The channel skill has been like that since the game launched.

Seriously. This whole thread is a l2p issue. People Shouldn’t mindlessly spam their stealth. Headshot the rapid fire, dodge it, line of sight it, evade it. Seriously, people need to think with their head and not with their rotations.

Chicago Jack.5647:

style.6173:

I take it you are newer here. The channel skill has been like that since the game launched.

Seriously. This whole thread is a l2p issue. People Shouldn’t mindlessly spam their stealth. Headshot the rapid fire, dodge it, line of sight it, evade it. Seriously, people need to think with their head and not with their rotations.

Pretty much, yeah. He probably isn’t even new, he’s probably been aware of stealth-tracking skills since day 1, however now that they pose a greater threat to his build (i.e. the LB buff – let’s not kid ourselves, this is exactly what this thread is about) he wants a nerf. Whereas previously i’d have expected a nerf to the Ranger, it ain’t gonna happen this time, kiddo.

Bryzy.2719:

Chicago Jack.5647:

style.6173:

I take it you are newer here. The channel skill has been like that since the game launched.

Seriously. This whole thread is a l2p issue. People Shouldn’t mindlessly spam their stealth. Headshot the rapid fire, dodge it, line of sight it, evade it. Seriously, people need to think with their head and not with their rotations.

Pretty much, yeah. He probably isn’t even new, he’s probably been aware of stealth-tracking skills since day 1, however now that they pose a greater threat to his build (i.e. the LB buff – let’s not kid ourselves, this is exactly what this thread is about) he wants a nerf. Whereas previously i’d have expected a nerf to the Ranger, it ain’t gonna happen this time, kiddo.

bugfix*
thx

Anton.1769:

Bryzy.2719:

Chicago Jack.5647:

style.6173:

I take it you are newer here. The channel skill has been like that since the game launched.

Seriously. This whole thread is a l2p issue. People Shouldn’t mindlessly spam their stealth. Headshot the rapid fire, dodge it, line of sight it, evade it. Seriously, people need to think with their head and not with their rotations.

Pretty much, yeah. He probably isn’t even new, he’s probably been aware of stealth-tracking skills since day 1, however now that they pose a greater threat to his build (i.e. the LB buff – let’s not kid ourselves, this is exactly what this thread is about) he wants a nerf. Whereas previously i’d have expected a nerf to the Ranger, it ain’t gonna happen this time, kiddo.

bugfix*
thx

Wrong; the devs have asserted that channeling skills that track stealth is not a bug.

Proof:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Stealth-vs-Single-Target-Ranged-Skills/first#post3095526

sinject.4607:

RyuDragnier.9476:

ITT: OP is QQing because he lost a match and rather than get better, he wants to nerf a class because he lost.

that kind of damage from that range on that low of a cooldown isn’t healthy.

there is no other profession in the game that is able to invest entirely in offensive-only traitlines and walk away with a build that’s viable against human players.

You’re right – it’s not like a Thief can Steal + C&D + BS someone from 14k hp -> 0 at 1500 range in 2 seconds… FROM STEALTH.

L2P and don’t be so hypocritical.

Yes it should, in fact, it should do double damage once stealth is initiated. Stealth has to have some draw backs, perhaps taking double damage while in stealth.

sinject.4607:

or should mesmers and thieves just sit there and accept the fact that if a ranger catches you mid-fight with rapid fire there’s nothing you can do about it?

You know, in this game if you click twice very fast one of these keys: WASD (keybindings exceptions), or click that small yellow bar above your health (lol), your character does this thing, where he rolls on the ground for 1 second, that we call evade or dodge roll.

People should really start doing that, especially thieves.

Also yes, you have to accept the fact that if you are, as you said in “mid fight” and a glass cannon class catches you off guard with it’s most burs damaging ability, there’s a possibility that you might get killed.

I won’t bother reply in the rest of your post as this must have beed the most L2P issue I’ve seen in a while.

Have fun

PS: wait till this guy hears about the skills Sic ’em or Analyze… lol it will be glorious

Imagine for a moment, that channelled skills went on full cooldown when interrupted and thief had an interrupt with no cooldown at all, thieves might never worry about being hit by channels again. :D:D:D:D

DeadlySynz.3471:

Yes it should, in fact, it should do double damage once stealth is initiated. Stealth has to have some draw backs, perhaps taking double damage while in stealth.

You mean despite the fact that it is supposed to be damage mitigation and yet doesn’t actually prevent damage? I swear people just want thieves to die as soon as you lock onto them. They don’t have blocks or access to protection, they have little to no hard CC and are generally very squishy. Their sources of damage mitigation are stealth, evades and general combat mobility. Who cares if a thief takes damage while they’re supposed to be mitigating it via stealth? But a few weeks ago someone suggested skills that go through blocks and invulnerability and everyone went crazy.

Problem with most people who claim stealth is “SUPER OP GODMODE” is that when thief enters stealth they do one of two things. They either stop everything and just stand there like AI, or they randomly swing autoattacks no matter what type of thief it is. You can tell exactly what a thief is going to do the second you know their main hand weapon. If it is a pistol, you know they’re start strafing away from you as soon as they stealth and try to sneak attack to apply burst bleeds. If it’s dagger or sword, good news, you can know almost exactly where they will go everytime they gain stealth. Unless they’re about to die, they will try to get right on top of you. This gives you a few options, you can AoE yourself and potentially down them in stealth, or you can just use some block. The issue is most of the people complaining are their own form of glass build and those are pretty much the perfect and only target for thieves. If they can’t end the fight in maybe 20-30 seconds(at least in Conquest) they should strongly consider going to another point.

But I feel like everyone takes the WvW meta thieves and instantly assumes that type of play is viable everywhere. Which it isn’t.

Coldtart.4785:

Imagine for a moment, that channelled skills went on full cooldown when interrupted and thief had an interrupt with no cooldown at all, thieves might never worry about being hit by channels again.:D:D:D

If you have the initiative up to Headshot rapid fire every time its off cd, you’re probably playing thief wrong. The problem with headshot is that it is very expensive initiative wise on a set that is already heavily reliant on initiative to burst. It takes 9 initiative to gain stealth with the common D/P setup and seeing as you’re more suited as a burster and not as an interrupter, I think you’d get more bang for your buck by downing the ranger instead of interrupting a rather short cd skill. I mean, you don’t see thieves running around just spamming Headshot everytime they have the initiative. It’s good for interrupting heals or telegraphed skills in a pinch, but you’d be better off trying to kill the ranger than interrupting them.

i’ll tell you this Stealth is not a Reactive Damage migration, its a Active Damage mirgation , if you play stealth reactively you’ll loose out because of that said lack of blocks or Protection.

play stealth Agressively not Defensivly and you’ll be good the rest is knowing when to stealth before the attack happens.

Now PBs has a wind up to the cast. (kneeling shot ) you can expect a RF right after or a Barrage + pet f2 look the kneel and Stealth ether before or Right after make sure if it is right after do it instantly, or you’ll be the target of the Rf channel.

using stealth as a reactive damage miragtion goes against the idea of stealh , making yourself untargetable.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

i’ll tell you this Stealth is not a Reactive Damage migration, its a Active Damage mirgation , if you play stealth reactively you’ll loose out because of that said lack of blocks or Protection.

This. If anyone use stealth as a reactive measure then they’re using it really wrong.

Ok, first, I play both, ranger and thief (tho I main ranger)

That being said, the tracking makes no sense from a realistic point of view. But for that to change how you (OP) want it, you should change how channeled skills mechanic works, otherwise you’re just breaking those skills (RF, unload, sneak attack, etc) and nerfing them to oblivion against thieves, engis, mesmers (I play those 3, so yeah).

And to be honest, those 3 shouldn’t have problems anyway. Mesmers can reflect, engis have so many blocks they don’t even care and thieves… thieves are the only ones that will benefit of this to the point where they completely destroy LB ranger. You would only need stealth on steal or BP, you wait for the ranger to use RF, and then the fight is pretty much over.

Now, going back to the tracking no making sense, I agree. They should make channeled skills able to cancel, and when they do the CD is reduce by a fair amount (for both parties) like 2,3 secs. So yeah, you can counterplay massive range burst with 1 buttom, but they can counterplay yours by cancelling. So both gain from active gameplay.

sinject.4607:

this is something that should’ve been completely obvious in game design, but a skill like rapid fire (and most channeled skills for that matter) should not track through stealth.

if part of the draw back to multiple succession-type attacks is that it needs all of the attacks to land to actually hit to it’s fullest potential, why is it that they gets a free pass when it comes to stealth? shouldn’t a break in targeting = a break in tracking? or should mesmers and thieves just sit there and accept the fact that if a ranger catches you mid-fight with rapid fire there’s nothing you can do about it?

i specifically mention rapid fire because it’s a topical choice (and the range allowed on it is something extra ridiculous), but other channeled skills like unload on p/p thief should be set to follow the same rule. ranged channeled attacks should not track through stealth, it doesn’t make sense from a gameplay point of view and it doesn’t make sense from a “lore” point of view either.

all channeled skills track through stealth. deal with it.

Someday.3650:

Ok, first, I play both, ranger and thief (tho I main ranger)

That being said, the tracking makes no sense from a realistic point of view. But for that to change how you (OP) want it, you should change how channeled skills mechanic works, otherwise you’re just breaking those skills (RF, unload, sneak attack, etc) and nerfing them to oblivion against thieves, engis, mesmers (I play those 3, so yeah).

And to be honest, those 3 shouldn’t have problems anyway. Mesmers can reflect, engis have so many blocks they don’t even care and thieves… thieves are the only ones that will benefit of this to the point where they completely destroy LB ranger. You would only need stealth on steal or BP, you wait for the ranger to use RF, and then the fight is pretty much over.

Now, going back to the tracking no making sense, I agree. They should make channeled skills able to cancel, and when they do the CD is reduce by a fair amount (for both parties) like 2,3 secs. So yeah, you can counterplay massive range burst with 1 buttom, but they can counterplay yours by cancelling. So both gain from active gameplay.

just like how backstabs should reveal you on a failure to connect? like a block?

Coldtart.4785:

Imagine for a moment, that channelled skills went on full cooldown when interrupted and thief had an interrupt with no cooldown at all, thieves might never worry about being hit by channels again.:D:D:D

oh no a 7 second cooldown whatever shall you do!

Amins.3710:

You’re right – it’s not like a Thief can Steal + C&D + BS someone from 14k hp -> 0 at 1500 range in 2 seconds… FROM STEALTH.

L2P and don’t be so hypocritical.

ah yes, ye ole “im gonna make up numbers for thief backstabs so my argument looks more believable”

if you’re at 14k and getting bursted down this means you’re pure glass in the first place, were bursted down by a thief running an extremely gimmicky build that has no viability outside of getting lucky against a lone roamer, and not wearing armor. and from 1500 range? that means thief used up steal and infiltrator’s signet (which means you have plenty of time to react if you see it coming and have a pulse), putting them on 22sec and 30sec cds for something that rapid fire does completely by itself.

if you’re playing dps you rely on mechanics to survive rather than stats. practically every single one of these mechanics will cancel out a d/d thief burst. it is 100x easier to negate a d/d backstab burst than it ever will be to negate a LB ranger burst; a single blind, aegis, teleport, evade, interrupt, enter into stealth, invuln, or block will completely wreck a d/d rotation. rapid fire on the other hand is barely affected at all by stealth, aegis, blinds, or evades thanks to the fact is a channeled skill. the ranged aspect makes it immediately a lot less susceptible to interrupts because most builds cant travel around 1500 range to interrupt something, and also less vulnerable to teleports as a defensive mechanic because if they attack you at 900 range, and you move another 400-500, you’re still open to attack- this is something that is unique to rapid fire as an advantage.

tl;dr you are complaining about and comparing a prime meta build to a thief build that hasn’t seen popular use past month 2 of this game’s history because it has absolutely no real viability whatsoever in any environment resembling a developed meta. not so much the case with power ranger, huh?

ok so progress so far:
not a single person is actually able to come up with an argument that makes sense as to why rapid fire and other channeled skills like it should get to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic almost altogether.

all that’s been posted are:

• banal comparisons to builds that don’t exist or are completely unviable:

dancingmonkey.4902:

You mean like the 6/6/0/0/2 zerker grenade engineer that is one of the professions most popular builds?

Amins.3710:

You’re right – it’s not like a Thief can Steal + C&D + BS someone from 14k hp -> 0 at 1500 range in 2 seconds… FROM STEALTH.

• reactionary nonsensical complaints about stealth and “learning to play”, that are adding nothing to this discussion and are mostly coming from places of desperation and/or ignorance:

Lifestealer.4910:

Shockers that you have to time your stealth properly and not spam it for once in your life.

coglin.1867:

I am okay with channel skills not tracking you in stealth. As long as all of your skills get locked out while in stealth, so that you cannot channel a heal or attack while in stealth.

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’ll counter with you should have a -33% speed debuff in stealth. If you are moving stealthily you would have to go slowly and quietly.

Any missed or blocked attack should reveal you.

Aoe attacks that knock down or immobilize should reveal you.

You should only be able to stealth out of combat. It doesn’t make sense that you can disappear in broad daylight right in front of the person you are fighting.

Jerus.4350:

^^

Really just a L2P issue here OP, sorry your stealth isn’t a catch all answer to everything.

And I’ll add Smokescreen and the hand full of reflect options mesmers have to that list.

shadowpass.4236:

If rapid fire no longer tracks in stealth, then stealth must:

- apply revealed when your attack is blinded/blocked/or missed
– 33% lower movement speed to prevent people from running away in stealth so easily
– revealed increased to 5 seconds

McWolfy.5924:

You should not be able to stealth in line of sight

RyuDragnier.9476:

ITT: OP is QQing because he lost a match and rather than get better, he wants to nerf a class because he lost.

Must be an sPvP thread, because I see these sorts of complaints all the time due to sPvP.

Bran.7425:

What’s next do you need from aoe to miss you while in stealth as well?

DeadlySynz.3471:

Yes it should, in fact, it should do double damage once stealth is initiated. Stealth has to have some draw backs, perhaps taking double damage while in stealth.

etc.

i could go on but really it’s just embarassing at this point.

Ah yes, the classic “you guys are all dumb and haven’t made any valid points” defense.

Black Box.9312:

Ah yes, the classic “you guys are all dumb and haven’t made any valid points” defense.

Goes great with the “I guess none of you are skilled enough to know what I’m talking about, you must all play hotjoin/kill uplevels/PvE etc”. With a side of insults and topped with purposeful ignorance of opposing opinions.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

i’ll tell you this Stealth is not a Reactive Damage migration, its a Active Damage mirgation , if you play stealth reactively you’ll loose out because of that said lack of blocks or Protection.

play stealth Agressively not Defensivly and you’ll be good the rest is knowing when to stealth before the attack happens.

Now PBs has a wind up to the cast. (kneeling shot ) you can expect a RF right after or a Barrage + pet f2 look the kneel and Stealth ether before or Right after make sure if it is right after do it instantly, or you’ll be the target of the Rf channel.

using stealth as a reactive damage miragtion goes against the idea of stealh , making yourself untargetable.

This. If you play actively, the ranger has no target to cast RF on. Stealth is not an “o-shi-” card. If a ranger initiates RF before you stealth, you got outplayed.

Shanks.2907:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

i’ll tell you this Stealth is not a Reactive Damage migration, its a Active Damage mirgation , if you play stealth reactively you’ll loose out because of that said lack of blocks or Protection.

play stealth Agressively not Defensivly and you’ll be good the rest is knowing when to stealth before the attack happens.

Now PBs has a wind up to the cast. (kneeling shot ) you can expect a RF right after or a Barrage + pet f2 look the kneel and Stealth ether before or Right after make sure if it is right after do it instantly, or you’ll be the target of the Rf channel.

using stealth as a reactive damage miragtion goes against the idea of stealh , making yourself untargetable.

This. If you play actively, the ranger has no target to cast RF on. Stealth is not an “o-shi-” card. If a ranger initiates RF before you stealth, you got outplayed.

“outplayed”? Lol )
when I press 2 by CD on my ranger, I don’t think I “outplayed” someone. If 1 thief already at invis I will just press 2 to another thief from 1500. )

Anton.1769:

Shanks.2907:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

i’ll tell you this Stealth is not a Reactive Damage migration, its a Active Damage mirgation , if you play stealth reactively you’ll loose out because of that said lack of blocks or Protection.

play stealth Agressively not Defensivly and you’ll be good the rest is knowing when to stealth before the attack happens.

Now PBs has a wind up to the cast. (kneeling shot ) you can expect a RF right after or a Barrage + pet f2 look the kneel and Stealth ether before or Right after make sure if it is right after do it instantly, or you’ll be the target of the Rf channel.

using stealth as a reactive damage miragtion goes against the idea of stealh , making yourself untargetable.

This. If you play actively, the ranger has no target to cast RF on. Stealth is not an “o-shi-” card. If a ranger initiates RF before you stealth, you got outplayed.

“outplayed”? Lol )
when I press 2 by CD on my ranger, I don’t think I “outplayed” someone. If 1 thief already at invis I will just press 2 to another thief from 1500. )

And you’ll be wasting your rapid fire. Unless you’re targeting an uplevel rapid fire isn’t going to kill them with the push of 1 button. When fighting thieves you need to get in some hits and cc before using rapid fire or they will stealth and run away.

Of course you could just be one of those bad thieves that stealthes and stands still instead of using that opportunity to close the gap which makes the longbow ineffective.

The longbow has 1 aoe skill, the rest require a target. Thieves in stealth are essentially invulnerable to longbow damage as long as they have the common sense not to use stealth while being already hit by a channeled skill.

sinject.4607:

ok so progress so far:
not a single person is actually able to come up with an argument that makes sense as to why rapid fire and other channeled skills like it should get to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic almost altogether.

all that’s been posted are:

• banal comparisons to builds that don’t exist or are completely unviable:

dancingmonkey.4902:

You mean like the 6/6/0/0/2 zerker grenade engineer that is one of the professions most popular builds?

Amins.3710:

You’re right – it’s not like a Thief can Steal + C&D + BS someone from 14k hp -> 0 at 1500 range in 2 seconds… FROM STEALTH.

• reactionary nonsensical complaints about stealth and “learning to play”, that are adding nothing to this discussion and are mostly coming from places of desperation and/or ignorance:

Lifestealer.4910:

Shockers that you have to time your stealth properly and not spam it for once in your life.

coglin.1867:

I am okay with channel skills not tracking you in stealth. As long as all of your skills get locked out while in stealth, so that you cannot channel a heal or attack while in stealth.

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’ll counter with you should have a -33% speed debuff in stealth. If you are moving stealthily you would have to go slowly and quietly.

Any missed or blocked attack should reveal you.

Aoe attacks that knock down or immobilize should reveal you.

You should only be able to stealth out of combat. It doesn’t make sense that you can disappear in broad daylight right in front of the person you are fighting.

Jerus.4350:

^^

Really just a L2P issue here OP, sorry your stealth isn’t a catch all answer to everything.

And I’ll add Smokescreen and the hand full of reflect options mesmers have to that list.

shadowpass.4236:

If rapid fire no longer tracks in stealth, then stealth must:

- apply revealed when your attack is blinded/blocked/or missed
– 33% lower movement speed to prevent people from running away in stealth so easily
– revealed increased to 5 seconds

McWolfy.5924:

You should not be able to stealth in line of sight

RyuDragnier.9476:

ITT: OP is QQing because he lost a match and rather than get better, he wants to nerf a class because he lost.

Must be an sPvP thread, because I see these sorts of complaints all the time due to sPvP.

Bran.7425:

What’s next do you need from aoe to miss you while in stealth as well?

DeadlySynz.3471:

Yes it should, in fact, it should do double damage once stealth is initiated. Stealth has to have some draw backs, perhaps taking double damage while in stealth.

etc.

i could go on but really it’s just embarassing at this point.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Stealth-vs-Single-Target-Ranged-Skills/first#post3067923

I like how you avoid valid points, reply to ones with some argumentative points, and claim there are no one who can come up with an argument. Perfect way to have a healthy conversation, almost troll-ish though.

You still haven’t reply my question, how else would LB ranger deal damage against stealth heavy opponents, provided that stealth negate channel skills and prevent subsequent range targeting? Please have a close look at LB skills before answer that.

I love someone came up with the suggestion of ranger AoE himself to prevent backstab, care to elaborate on what are the options and CD for zerk ranger LB AoE? Last time I check ranger LB has no block either, and #3 stealth needs a target (oops where’s the target now?) to function.

Fellas do I really need to spoon feed information? I don’t think getting you to understand that this change would completely shut down ranger LB against d/p thieves and PU mesmer is a hard thing. Do you miss the good old days when LB ranger is free food for all?

dude. there are going to be ways to kill you.

Anton.1769:

Shanks.2907:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

i’ll tell you this Stealth is not a Reactive Damage migration, its a Active Damage mirgation , if you play stealth reactively you’ll loose out because of that said lack of blocks or Protection.

play stealth Agressively not Defensivly and you’ll be good the rest is knowing when to stealth before the attack happens.

Now PBs has a wind up to the cast. (kneeling shot ) you can expect a RF right after or a Barrage + pet f2 look the kneel and Stealth ether before or Right after make sure if it is right after do it instantly, or you’ll be the target of the Rf channel.

using stealth as a reactive damage miragtion goes against the idea of stealh , making yourself untargetable.

This. If you play actively, the ranger has no target to cast RF on. Stealth is not an “o-shi-” card. If a ranger initiates RF before you stealth, you got outplayed.

“outplayed”? Lol )
when I press 2 by CD on my ranger, I don’t think I “outplayed” someone. If 1 thief already at invis I will just press 2 to another thief from 1500. )

changing target is just smart play well done.

So if we stopped channeled skills from hitting stealth targets all together, what would be another solution/counter play to stealth? There are already very few counters to stealth, apart from revealed which only 2 professions have access to I think, and aoe which is not very reliable agaist stealth as you can’t really tell if you’re hitting the guy or not…apart from marks and traps.

Black Box.9312:

Ah yes, the classic “you guys are all dumb and haven’t made any valid points” defense.

but it’s true. if it wasn’t, you would be able to quote someone’s post in this thread proving me wrong.

Shanks.2907:

This. If you play actively, the ranger has no target to cast RF on. Stealth is not an “o-shi-” card. If a ranger initiates RF before you stealth, you got outplayed.

this is an embarrassing argument. there is no such thing to getting “outplayed” by a build that can effectively burst you down within the use of two skills all while being out of range. this is simply overrewarding someone for being able to press #2 at a distance while supported by AI.

stealth is as good as a reactionary mechanic as it is a precautionary one. the only thing that completely voids this are ranged channeled attacks, which has absolutely no reason for doing so. particularly on ranger, this tracing mechanic alone drastically undermines the existence of sic em’ entirely as mentioned earlier in this thread.

TheLastNobody.8319:

So if we stopped channeled skills from hitting stealth targets all together, what would be another solution/counter play to stealth? There are already very few counters to stealth, apart from revealed which only 2 professions have access to I think, and aoe which is not very reliable agaist stealth as you can’t really tell if you’re hitting the guy or not…apart from marks and traps.

stealth already has plenty of counterplay, considerably more than what’s available counter-wise to things like distortion, endure pain, guardian meditations, etc.

there’s a difference between counterplay and an unfair advantage. it’s unfair that melee weapons require to put yourself in much greater risk to actually do damage yet cannot trace through stealth like ranged (channeled) attacks can.

the point is that ranged channel attacks have a lot of inherent advantages over melee ones, but tracing through stealth shouldn’t be one of them.

STRanger.5120:

sinject.4607:

STRanger.5120:

sinject.4607:

and yet this still doesn’t explain why rapid fire amongst all other ranged channel skills like unload get to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic almost entirely.

How did you make this assumption?
RF is not the only one to ignore stealth as a defensive mechanic, every channeled targetted skill does that. Oh man, get your stuff together, really….

i said that all channeled skills including those like unload track through stealth

it is a profession-crossing mechanic that needs to be changed, especially with the pandemic that is longbow rangers in this game

Well, the sentence was kinda weird, it made different impression on me, ok then, just a misunderstanding.
However, it doesn’t change the fact that the RF (and all other similar skills) are like that since the release, why is it problem now? Because there are more rangers? That’s hardly an argument m8.
It’s like if I were saying that there’s too much Thieves killing my full zerk Ele in a blink of an eye, which means those are OP and should be nerfed…. Which of course doesn’t make sense….

No, because, in that particular context, they would nerf the ele…

Seriously, you can now dodge the entirety of RF with one dodge roll. The animation is blatant – as obvious as warrior’s Killshot (which is far more offensive, imo). Dying from it is a pure L2P issue.

That’s not taking into consideration that stealth is, itself, incredibly imbalanced. Adding a small amount of danger to the lowest risk/highest reward class in the game isn’t a bad thing.

Good thieves don’t die. Bad thieves cry on the forums about classes that are, comparatively, underpowered.

sinject.4607:

Shanks.2907:

This. If you play actively, the ranger has no target to cast RF on. Stealth is not an “o-shi-” card. If a ranger initiates RF before you stealth, you got outplayed.

this is an embarrassing argument. there is no such thing to getting “outplayed” by a build that can effectively burst you down within the use of two skills all while being out of range. this is simply overrewarding someone for being able to press #2 at a distance while supported by AI.

stealth is as good as a reactionary mechanic as it is a precautionary one. the only thing that completely voids this are ranged channeled attacks, which has absolutely no reason for doing so. particularly on ranger, this tracing mechanic alone drastically undermines the existence of sic em’ entirely as mentioned earlier in this thread.

That’s funny, I find it more embarrassing dying to a RF ranger when a thief has a stockpile of counters. Stealth as a reactionary mechanic is a crutch, don’t go admitting that’s what you use it for.

sinject.4607:

but it’s true. if it wasn’t, you would be able to quote someone’s post in this thread proving me wrong.

In my opinion, anyone could prove you wrong by quoating almost any post in this thread that you did not make.

sinject.4607:

this is an embarrassing argument. there is no such thing to getting “outplayed” by a build that can effectively burst you down within the use of two skills all while being out of range. this is simply overrewarding someone for being able to press #2 at a distance while supported by AI.

If it is so strong, are you agreeable to hoping on your ranger and dueling my or others? We can record it and post the video.

sinject.4607:

stealth is as good as a reactionary mechanic as it is a precautionary one. the only thing that completely voids this are ranged channeled attacks, which has absolutely no reason for doing so. particularly on ranger, this tracing mechanic alone drastically undermines the existence of sic em’ entirely as mentioned earlier in this thread.

I am reasonably certain that “because the folks who created the game made it as thier design choice” is the perfect reason for doing so.

sinject.4607:

there’s a difference between counterplay and an unfair advantage. it’s unfair that melee weapons require to put yourself in much greater risk to actually do damage yet cannot trace through stealth like ranged (channeled) attacks can.

Yes, counter play is what everyone else does to you, that you claim is an unfair advantage. Unfair advantage is what you are demanding, by lobbying to remove all of the counter play.

sinject.4607:

the point is that ranged channel attacks have a lot of inherent advantages over melee ones, but tracing through stealth shouldn’t be one of them.

You do understand the “cause I say so” argument gets you know where right? Until you become a tyrannical leader of your own country, when the majority of the speakers on a subject disagree with you, the majority wins out.

The point is, you keep claiming your personal opinion as indisputable fact. I have to admit that I like that you do it. It is a solid guarantee that devs will over look your post when you state it so.

This thread still going? Can’t we just accept that the dodge button and line of sight do exist and move on?

/thread

sinject.4607:

Black Box.9312:

Ah yes, the classic “you guys are all dumb and haven’t made any valid points” defense.

but it’s true. if it wasn’t, you would be able to quote someone’s post in this thread proving me wrong.

Unfortunately, the burden of proof is currently on you and not me, my friend.

OP, you wanted logical arguments so let’s dismantle your thread with some.

First of all, you seem to have ignored the key fact that the devs have identified this form of stealth tracking as an intended mechanic. This was and has always been an intended counter.

Onto the ‘but it doesn’t make sense in gameplay’ argument. This is a void argument; this is a fantasy game and shooting pink lasers out of swords and turning invisible make no sense either. From a balance perspective this argument holds zero weight because it is based simply on a clash of subjective opinions.

From the perspective of this being an overpowered counter to stealth – well I’m afraid you’re carrying very little weight there too; if it was truly overpowered then there would be many more threads from QQers such as yourself on the subject but as far as I can tell they are few and far between, giving the impression that the rest of the community doesn’t feel that it is a significant issue. This point is further reinforced by the fact that the devs have historically always responded to sufficient QQ with nerfs. Since this mechanic had been in place since the inception of the game, I’d say that speaks for itself.

Black Box is also correct in his above post. The claimant carries the burden of proof. Since you are claiming that stealth tracking skills are unwarranted, the onus is on you to prove why. Since all you have done so far is provide weightless arguments and dismiss those of others, you have not yet fulfilled that burden.

With regard to your dismissal of others’ arguments based on your own subjective criteria – I’ll say ignorance is bliss but it doesn’t half make you look stupid.

You anti thieves are clueless. i suppose you don’t have a passive to fight stealth so that’s why your all angry. doing stuff yourself is hard after all….

As for the ranger, ask yourself this Op. would you rather fight a burst build? or one of these passive condition/sustain builds? I will take the power build anyday. at least they still have to move.

caveman.5840:

whats the point of wasting a utility slot for sick em
when u have a stealth tracking rapid fire

Because no good thief would try to stealth in combat when RF is off cooldown, while out of dodges.