Guild Wars 2

Swagger.1459:

I believe these thread mergers are a sign of some big changes to come for the thief profession.

I don’t think so. I think they merged them because when people end up writing the same point and counterpoint 3 times in a day they end up becoming blunt/rude/argumentative. It was simply a proactive measure to lessen the work of the moderators.

godz raiden.2631:

snip

For what it’s worth I somewhat agree with you. I personally find the reaction checks unreasonable. It’s clearly – and I mean to imply no sarcasm – problem in my end; after all I haven’t been ~18 in over a decade.

I decided to cut my losses in the end and find other games to play, even if I sometimes come by to do random shenanigans in WvW or PvE with friends. I consider to have gotten my money’s worth despite losing patience on many occasions with PvP.

EDIT: Removed some stuff; I went overboard.

Ision.3207:

… killing the oh-so-OP Thieves with my Ranger! — LOL

Funny isn’t eet? Ranger using Sword/Torch + LB is a hard counter to Thieves. You can’t backstab them without getting burned.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ision.3207:

… killing the oh-so-OP Thieves with my Ranger! — LOL

Funny isn’t eet? Ranger using Sword/Torch + LB is a hard counter to Thieves. You can’t backstab them without getting burned.

;-)

It’s hilarious really, and almost as funny as all this nonsense about thieves being OP. But if you really want to see some thieves squirm in agony, roll an Engi dude. Trust me, once you get the right build and rotations, you can lay some serious hurt down on the so-called, “alpha predators” of WvW.

That of course is a flawed argument. I disengage from about half the fights vs engis. I have to choice whether to go back in or not. They could never disengage from me.

Frye.4608:

That of course is a flawed argument. I disengage from about half the fights vs engis. I have to choice whether to go back in or not. They could never disengage from me.

Started playing a thief recently, I’m disappointed in the class mechanic. Takes so much patients to kill people since I have to either hide in stealth for days on end or reset fights by stealthing. Up the DPS, give thief a higher HP pool, and compensate by reducing the amount of stealth spam possible IMO. This proposal is coming from a guy who mains Ele btw, so before anyone says “lol buff thief?” Just know I don’t main theif.

incoming teef nerf cuz of forum QQ , thank you fortus I will have to play my warrior 100% of the time. Enjoy my hammer stuns

Just to put my two cents in…

If this matter is to be resolved, Arenanet needs to quell the more serious of the bunch by talking with the thieves who are regularly suspended from the forums for defending the thief profession first.

And the reason why I am saying those individuals is because of what I said in a previous topic before it got merged. No, I am not going to spell it out for you so you’ll have to click the link.

Those thieves and a few devs should discuss what needs to be improved on the profession. This is how I think the process should play out:

1. The devs and the select thieves join a temporary guild chat to do the discussion in.
2. The thieves will propose buffs/fixes/overhauls to whatever skill, trait or traitline they feel needs one. The thieves and the devs will then agree on a final adequate buff for every issue they come up with.
3. Once the buff list is done and both the devs and thieves are satisfied with it, they can proceed on where nerfs should be placed, with the thieves’ approval of course. This should be done in the same manner as the Buff List.
4. After this discussion is complete, the developers can post the list on the forums, if they feel it is necessary, to get further feedback from everyone else.

This way, thieves won’t feel like they’ve been shafted and the profession becomes more enjoyable for everyone. As for those thieves who should be participating in these talks, I am going to list the ones I feel at least deserve a spot and their top 3 reasons why I chose them in parenthesis. Also realize this list was compiled from the hours of research I love to do in my offtime.

I will probably get flamed for this but its all in good intentions.

• Zero Day (Very Experienced, Long-Term Experience, High morale for thief community)
• Red Spectrum (Very Experienced, Helpful, Creative ideas)
• Arganthium (Very Experienced, Long-Term Experience, Community-oriented)
• Zacchary (Very Experienced, Passionate/Angry, Creative ideas)
• Auesis (Very Experienced, Posts plenty of builds, Long-Term Experience)
• Sir Vincent III (Very Experienced, Has additional experience with unorthodox builds, High Morale for thief community)

EDIT:

• Jumper (looking him up)
• wish (looking him up)
• Interceptor (looking him up)

EDIT2: I am sorry its been ~14 hours since the first edit. I have school and other irl things to attend to so I will get back to this list later.

/firemanhelmet
:3

yolo swaggins.2570:

• Sir Vincent III (Very Experienced, Has additional experience with unorthodox builds, High Morale for thief community)

wish and Interceptors are better for that group than me…and Jumper if he’s around.

Ision.3207:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ision.3207:

… killing the oh-so-OP Thieves with my Ranger! — LOL

Funny isn’t eet? Ranger using Sword/Torch + LB is a hard counter to Thieves. You can’t backstab them without getting burned.

;-)

It’s hilarious really, and almost as funny as all this nonsense about thieves being OP. But if you really want to see some thieves squirm in agony, roll an Engi dude. Trust me, once you get the right build and rotations, you can lay some serious hurt down on the so-called, “alpha predators” of WvW.

I do use my Engi in WvW.

I knew I was forgetting a few people! Thanks, Sir Vincent! All of you have like 40 pages worth of posts and I am just quickly browsing through them so its easy to forget about the actual thief forums. Sorry that I forgot you three.

Browsing through this makes me sick, the notion of balance people on this forum have is just disgustingly off the actual in game reality where warriors and guardians run the show everywhere.

Complaining about backstab damage is as pathetic as it gets, other classes do the same damage AoE on 5 players without targeting anyone and get finishers on that aswell.

I will tell you something this once, you qq to much and play not enough you will still lose even if all your suggestions are implemented because you fail to see where the actual problem you have is.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

yolo swaggins.2570:

• Sir Vincent III (Very Experienced, Has additional experience with unorthodox builds, High Morale for thief community)

wish and Interceptors are better for that group than me…and Jumper if he’s around.

Ironic how people who broadcast specs to the public on gw2 forums naturally have them nerf hammered later on when they become too popular in high to low level play.

But in any event, this patch has not really given much to be desired for thieves. All the new grand masters are virtually pathetic, poorly placed or are not even deserving of being grandmaster traits. Not seeing any build diversity for thieves in spvp or pve.

The Primary.6371:

All the new grand masters are virtually pathetic, poorly placed or are not even deserving of being grandmaster traits. Not seeing any build diversity for thieves in spvp or pve.

Speak for yourself. RT, RoS and BA GM traits are not what you think they are.

Burnfall.9573:

Well said.

these good suggestions would help in the redesign/rework of thief class.

That is the shortest response I’ve ever seen you post burnfall. Well done!

I’d step in if people weren’t on a crusade to make button smashing viable (referring to those who think thief takes no skills and has the best defense). Many thief players have already stated being in favor of 1-cast stealth attacks, since stealth attacks are a huge impact on a build (sneak attack, BS really). Yet, anti-thief protests want it to go further for no reason other than that they aren’t experienced enough to handle them.

Wonder what the forums would be like if you weren’t allowed to post without being rank 30+ with over 50 games on at least 4 different professions. Maybe people’s perspective would be different, and those with some experience would be able to back up their claims without it sounding like a rant.

Its frustrating , ppl complaining about Thief after all theese nerfs … the only Problem is survival mechanic of the thief. Anet pushed again into stealth!

change x/p 5# into darkness field > no more permastealth

Where is the build diversity if there are 3 new GM traits with stealth based mechanic ….. we want buff for stealthless gameplay, too!
Put all stealth related traits into shadow arts;
merge the thousands useless/ by Players untouched steal traits;
and create new traits for venoms/traps/tricks and also buff UP traps/tricks/venoms to make them viable in engage fights.

Arkantos.7460:

Its frustrating , ppl complaining about Thief after all theese nerfs … the only Problem is survival mechanic of the thief. Anet pushed again into stealth!

change x/p 5# into darkness field > no more permastealth

Where is the build diversity if there are 3 new GM traits with stealth based mechanic ….. we want buff for stealthless gameplay, too!
Put all stealth related traits into shadow arts;
merge the thousands useless/ by Players untouched steal traits;
and create new traits for venoms/traps/tricks and also buff UP traps/tricks/venoms to make them viable in engage fights.

/sign

But they must improve BT too, to make it to a useful trait.
Two boons, for only 5 secs, a range of 240 and this every 35 secs? No way!

Black Teagan.9215:

But they must improve BT too, to make it to a useful trait.
Two boons, for only 5 secs, a range of 240 and this every 35 secs? No way!

If you spec for BT, the CD for Steal is ~30s, so that would be “every 30 sec? Now way!”

Don’t forget that the Vigor is uber useless too.

Just posting this here, but signet of agility has been bugged since launch. You do not heal “x” amount of conditions per ally near you when using it. I forget if they just removed the trait in acrobatics that increased speed by 50% in stealth, but I do remember that it has never worked properly, either.

I’m a bit bitter about the constant nerfs to thief when we’re already the weakest profession to use in Spvp, but people are going to come here and complain about getting killed by a backstab thief in wub that’s most likely 30/30/0/0/10 and using food buffs.
Not that I blame the thief considering how little we do in comparison to other professions, and how to even come close to dealing as much damage as others we must use D/D or D/P, since every single other weapon set has been nerfed harder and harder into the ground while other professions receive buff after buff and become easier and easier to play. Spirit ranger, Hambow, Staff Necro, MM…there’s little to nothing to indicate any sort of skill level with anyone that uses these, and yet they’re still some of the most viable builds.

Thieves need more than useless grandmaster traits that give less HP back to the thief then the warrior’s healsig gives, passively, and other professions or builds such as the previously mentioned ones need a nerf. There needs to be a huge meta change, in general, as mindless play has become the meta. Professions shouldn’t be able to do so much by simply having passive abilities that require nothing on the player’s behalf.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The Primary.6371:

All the new grand masters are virtually pathetic, poorly placed or are not even deserving of being grandmaster traits. Not seeing any build diversity for thieves in spvp or pve.

Speak for yourself. RT, RoS and BA GM traits are not what you think they are.

??

Do tell

T raw.4658:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The Primary.6371:

All the new grand masters are virtually pathetic, poorly placed or are not even deserving of being grandmaster traits. Not seeing any build diversity for thieves in spvp or pve.

Speak for yourself. RT, RoS and BA GM traits are not what you think they are.

??

Do tell

Not the right place. Refer to the Thief sub-forum.

Yesterday something strange happened; while regaining health in stealth during downed state by a party thief, an enemy thief was able to kill me, while i was in stealth by my party thief.

How is this possible?

We discussed this matter with the server members and they all found that strange and impossible.

Seriously,

i feel that Artena.net cares less about balancing/redesigning/reworking this class.

oh well!!

there are other mmo’s and new mmo’s companies in the market who cares about Balance

Burnfall.9573:

Yesterday something strange happened; while regaining health in stealth during downed state by a party thief, an enemy thief was able to kill me, while i was in stealth by my party thief.

How is this possible?

We discussed this matter with the server members and they all found that strange and impossible.

Seriously,

i feel that Artena.net cares less about balancing/redesigning/reworking this class.

oh well!

there are other mmo’s and new mmo’s companies in the market who cares.

Complain that stealth makes thieves invincible.
Complain that stealth doesn’t make you invincible.

-.-

Poor Burnfall, the dearheart.

If only he could learn to kill thieves, then all would be well.

ROFL

And never mind me Burnfall baby; you just keep on giving these OP Thieves hell in these whiney QQ threads. Because I love your tragic posts!

Burnfall = For Justice and Fairness and Balance !!!

raahk.2786:

……….I’m a bit bitter about the constant nerfs to thief when we’re already the weakest profession to use in Spvp, ……….

Did you watch the tournament of legends last weekend? Thief is most definitely not the weakest profession to use in Spvp.

thief is op in a gc vs gc fight. simple is that.
on the same its under powered in build choice and for sustained dmg and with defense against condis.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Don’t forget that the Vigor is uber useless too.

Quite possibly the dumbest thing I have read on the forums to date. Bravo.

Gc vs Gc atleast ranger v thief. Its 50/50. First strike wins. Such is the battles between the two most dedicated single target dps classes.

As for othe professions. Thief wins due to bad counterplay.

Thanks to this VID-OP for giving us a perfect example of all that is wrong with stealth and chain stealth.

Also this is not just a sPVP problem, the problem is a lot more compounded in WvW as you can see in the video.

Now, a.net has a blueprint as to how to approach it, probably, maybe, finally fix this broken mechanic.

Or….

Maybe provide proper counterplay, just a thought.

Latinkuro.9420:

Thanks to this VID-OP for giving us a perfect example of all that is wrong with stealth and chain stealth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVy_C-Z0-k

Also this is not just a sPVP problem, the problem is a lot more compounded in WvW as you can see in the video.

Now, a.net has a blueprint as to how to approach it, probably, maybe, finally fix this broken mechanic.

Or….

Maybe provide proper counterplay, just a thought.

" The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us
from the support of a cause we believe to be Just "

Once again,

Another exposure of Disgrace.

-Stealthing off walls(evidence show that it was nerfed but was immediate reverted), Perma-Stealth(so called Patch Nerf), God Mode (nothing new here), where does it end?

As long Arena.net refuses to admit and take immediate action against this class, more Truth-bearers will expose their wrongdoings.

Worst of all,

Many of my server players has reportedtheir wrongdoings spreading to other mmo’s game forums.

YouTube, Reddit, Guild Wars 2 and others, has enough evidence to support them.

Once again, far too long…..we the community concerns has been Intentionally Ignored, Rejected, Ridiculed and Mocked and thrown under the rug.

How many more Truth-bearers needed for our concerns to be taken seriously?

How many more Truth-bearers needed for immediate action to be taken against this class?

Rework Thief Class!

Rework Warrior Class!

Arena.net

or

Risk more exposure

+

Risk losing your community.

And to top it off
they go and introduce this kitten: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resilience_of_Shadows

Stealth effects that you apply reduce incoming attack damage by 50%
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 360

as if killing them wasn’t already a pain in the kitten !
Why would they introduce a 50% damage reduction trait to a broken mechanic without introducing proper counterplay 1st ?

it is beyond comprehension !

EDIT

And then there’s:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Larcenous_Strike
which doesn’t have a CD at all, I’m like REALLY !
well kitten me.

Hint: initiative system needs rework to.

Latinkuro.9420:

Thanks to this VID-OP for giving us a perfect example of all that is wrong with stealth and chain stealth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVy_C-Z0-k

Also this is not just a sPVP problem, the problem is a lot more compounded in WvW as you can see in the video.

Now, a.net has a blueprint as to how to approach it, probably, maybe, finally fix this broken mechanic.

Or….

Maybe provide proper counterplay, just a thought.

Or pat themself on the back for a job well done

Latinkuro.9420:

Thanks to this VID-OP for giving us a perfect example of all that is wrong with stealth and chain stealth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVy_C-Z0-k

Also this is not just a sPVP problem, the problem is a lot more compounded in WvW as you can see in the video.

Now, a.net has a blueprint as to how to approach it, probably, maybe, finally fix this broken mechanic.

Or….

Maybe provide proper counterplay, just a thought.

Or you know learn to play. Shadow art’s thieves are a joke. Put some distance between you and them, dagger off hand users, especially in wvw, typically only carry shadowstep as a gap closer and don’t have the low cooldown on steal. Distance won’t let them CnD you without blowing cooldowns. You should be able to outkite a dagger off hand thief no problem.

This is no way permastealth. Its bad players who don’t know how to count 123 and do something to cause the thief to miss CnD.

I think everybody know the Predator movies. What if invisibility is not a total invisibility, just something like in the films? Just let them to hide forever! We will find you!

Or give them more dodge/evaid and nearly completly remove invisibility (from mesmers and thieves too)

Prysin.8542:

Gc vs Gc atleast ranger v thief. Its 50/50. First strike wins. Such is the battles between the two most dedicated single target dps classes.

As for othe professions. Thief wins due to bad counterplay.

lol never read such nonsens.. first strike wins? stop telling total bullkitten from your wvw experience fighting noob thiefs. enter tpvp and loose every fight against a competent thief, no matter that u will strike first. that the problem with that professionbalance, ppl like you pretend its all fine if it isnt just cause u can win against noobs with bad builds.

the whole point of stealth is that played decently, the thief will ALWAYS have the first strike.

“But if you have awareness it shouldnt happen!” Well, guess what, if the thief also have awareness, at least as much as you think is necessary to get the first jump on a thief, then he will stealth before he gets easily spotted and shutdown.

Stealth IS the first strike, that already sets thing on their favor. I seriously dont understand from where is this all 50/50 nonsense coming from, perhaps playing agaisnt thieves that have no awareness or just created that class?

Vanthian.9267:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Don’t forget that the Vigor is uber useless too.

Quite possibly the dumbest thing I have read on the forums to date. Bravo.

Sarcasm is foreign to you. I understand. :rollseyes:

From the perspective of a ranger(admittedly more base hp than an ele), I’ve never found backstab in itself a big problem, but rather the nauseating amount of stealth and how well it functions combined with active defenses. That applies not just for thieves, but also for many popular mesmer builds. In certain scenarios, stealth durations feel just too high to counter effectively when playing a class that is not overloaded with AoE… and if we’re honest, some classes are simply built more around single target/target requiring skills than others.

I personally feel the best course of action would be a universal reduction of all stealth mechanics and buffing the affected classes’ visible fight mechanics. If a few seconds were shaved off thief stealth chains for example, they could be given more access to protection /limited block or other boons with a similar duration reflecting what was cut out of stealth. Then classes and builds that lack AoE CC could follow up effectively if played right with their single target skills, but thieves would be no less fearsome an opponent.

Stealth just needs autobalance and better counters.

How do you autobalance stealth? Bind DPS to revealed duration in some way. The more damage you are doing, the less often you should be able to go into Stealth like some sort of “awareness” effect that enemies hit while in stealth get, that will make your revealed longer after after they get enough stacks.
So stealth stays viable, but the most extreme cases no longer work.

As for counters, new things could do. There’s no AoE revealed other than the WvW traps and arrow carts. There should be a few more decent stealth counters.

For example:

Engineer:

• Spray Paint (60s Recharge). Toolbelt skill from utility. Spray paint around you, revealing close cloaked enemies for 4 seconds. (150 radius, causes random hue changes in enemies like Hylek hue potions)

Elementalist:

• Dry ground (30s R). Elementalist offhand scepter earth skill. Create an area of dusty dried terrain for 10 seconds. Cloaked enemies that move within this area are revealed for 2 seconds. (180 radius, smoke field).
• Ebon Dust Aura (90s R). Elementalist elite. For 15 seconds, you do not take increased damage from critical hits. Enemies that hit you in melee range are revealed for +1 second, and take 1×5s bleeding.

Ranger:

• Dust trap (50s). Set a trap that deals damage, blinds (5s) and reveals cloaked foes(4s). (180 radius, Smoke field).
• Dust Cloak (60s R). Survival utility. For 5 seconds, attacking or being attacked by you or your pet causes +1s revealed.
• Pet bat/Dolphin’s skill: Sonar (75s R). Reveal up to 5 cloaked foes. (360 radius)

Necromancer:
* Tainted Marks (40s). Your marks reveal cloaked foes for 2 seconds.

“+1s revealed” means additional revealed. That is, at least 1 second, but if they do something that gets them revealed at the same time (e.g.: Attack while cloaked), the +1 stacks with their revealed duration.

They need to either dramatically adjust the initiative regen so the class dumps its load and then tries to play catchup. Or they need to overhaul the entire system as the current one is simply not salvageable imo. I remember having this conversation a year ago :/

Atherakhia.4086:

They need to either dramatically adjust the initiative regen so the class dumps its load and then tries to play catchup.

There are 2 ways this already currently works for a thief.

A.) You intelligently manage your skills and initiative to always have some available for countering your enemies tactics.

B.) You “dump your load and try to play catchup”.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Atherakhia.4086:

They need to either dramatically adjust the initiative regen so the class dumps its load and then tries to play catchup.

There are 2 ways this already currently works for a thief.

A.) You intelligently manage your skills and initiative to always have some available for countering your enemies tactics.

B.) You “dump your load and try to play catchup”.

That’s not the way it works though because if initiative regen was correctly balanced perma stealth wouldn’t be possible.

Atherakhia.4086:

That’s not the way it works though because if initiative regen was correctly balanced perma stealth wouldn’t be possible.

It isn’t.

Not without using 2 or 3 utility skills mixed in.. Even then.. “Perma” stealth is an act thieves do to slip away, so you aren’t being attacked by someone in “perma stealth”.

Obviously stealth is somewhat of an advantage (depending on the opponent you’re up against) and that’s just common sense. It was designed that way which is why thieves have limited survivability in that thieves have no utility access to stability/aegis/blocks/invulnerability.

Stealth is not God mode. I play a thief main and I have about 1,900 deaths, probably about at least 1,500 are on my thief in WvW.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Obviously stealth is somewhat of an advantage (depending on the opponent you’re up against) and that’s just common sense. It was designed that way which is why thieves have limited survivability in that thieves have no utility access to stability/aegis/blocks/invulnerability.

Stealth is not God mode. I play a thief main and I have about 1,900 deaths, probably about at least 1,500 are on my thief in WvW.

true, it might not be god mode, obut out of invuln/aegis/stability/blocks, it is common sense also to know that steakth has the highest survival rate among all those, and if you died 1500 on your thief then those deaths most likely when you were out of stealth attacking someone or when confronted by a zerg. And we all also know that perhaps the best tool to survive a zerg is probably stealth, which you can literally walk past them and they would never know.

Truth of thr matter is; stealth is the single strongest mechanic in the game, even more than invulnerability because:

1) it has more uptime and less CD than any invulnerability in the game (even the highest lasting invulnerability has 50 secs CD and thats focus 5 on earth for ele)

2) You can still cast abilities (most invulnerabilities lock you in action or doesnt last long enough to do anything meaniful, im looking at the nerfed mist form which you could cast heal before, but now no more, or guardian’s elite, etc etc)

3) Best defense is the one where you dont get hit, and where you cant be tracked down. (go up to a zerg, cast stability/aegis/invulnerability, then try disappearing…. you cant, as soon as it all runs out you are dead. Do the same with a thief and change direction, use a shortbow teleport and you are gone, and watch them wave their sword around like idjots or waste long CD AoE)

Im sorry but you simply cant deny that stealth is THE strongest survival tool out there, it is, as you said; common sense. Sure it doesnt make you “god” but it sure is the closest you can get to it in this game.

Thing is you can get hit while stealthed and it happens more times than people realize. You can be AOE’d and channeled while stealthed. I have died many times in stealth to things such as Life Transfer, Volley, Rapid Fire, thief shortbow bounce/cluster bomb, engi nade spam/Meteor Shower, etc. None of these work on someone with invulnerability.

It’s true that someone may run some build or weapon set that can’t effectively do the above but that’s just the way it is. I run straight up melee on my thief on both weapon sets and there are times I get screwed because I could have used a shortbow.

It takes either a very high amount of awareness from a thief player (kind of like in the movies where you see those crazy comical clips of people trying to acrobatically maneuver through laser alarm triggers) or a very low level of awareness from their opponents for the thief to make an escape with the odds heavily stacked against them. Sure some zergs I have stealthed through and got away, but others I have run through and got hammered in the face and melted by necro marks. Even though they can’t see me they use “preventative measures” and almost always it works.

The other day I literally dropped Shadow Refuge in the middle of about 15 people and nobody made a play at me. You can’t blame stealth for that. All it would have taken is 1 Mesmer/Warrior/Engi/Necro/Guardian to knock me out of it and reveal me and I can tell you they had at least 3 warriors with hammers running through my refuge.

The same night I got steamloled by 20 or so using the AOE steamroll method where they literally drop all of the AOE’s they have right at their feet as they move. No amount of stealth saves you from that. I wish I had a screenshot of how many rings there were on the ground.

Point is: Different strengths and weaknesses. Every class has them. Stealth makes people panic/lose focus/get flustered.. that’s the point. It has many counters. Not every build can counter it true.. in the same way not every build can counter heavy condi application. People want stealth changed to make thieves easier to kill. Dying is not what thieves are designed to be good at.

Hmm, there seems to be some good threads about initiative balance, and although i dont believe it will solve much of the core issues, I do think it would be a good start:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Why-Initiative-does-not-work/

Using stealth along with teleports or leaps is indeed rewarding if you want to escape, but that same guardian going with his own zerg can actually fight there in the middle of the zerg, while the thief gets mown down even if he’s stealthed.

Stealth is indeed not trackable, cuz then it wouldn’t be stealth. But stealth is more predictable than in most games. Stealth itself doesn’t have any hard counter, but there are plenty of counter-heavy things to use against stealth.

Since you play staff ele or wte, I’ll just feel sorry for you. Since I mow down most by just using dagger auto-attack since they usually will counter my backstabs since they are able to, Axe warriors can do the same with their powerful auto-attack and maybe a 10k eviscerate or 2 in a telegraphed but unpredictable manner unlike backstab, to take down that same elementalist.

And lastly, Stealth=/=Invulnerability.

Since I’ve invested in a stealth heavy build I have 2 dodges at my disposal which I blew off against bull’s charge+hb and volley. This warrior was a really good player, a pink charr from desolation. And here’s what he hit me with while I was stealthed.

I’m still wondering why Thieves get a Chill applying skill when they use Steal on an Elementalist. Isn’t it common knowledge that Thieves would usually cheese out Elementalists yet Anet still gave them access to Chill which is an Elementalists greatest bane in terms of conditions?

Stealth Available to Thief

• Blackpowder + Heartseeker x 3 = 15 second recharge = 9 seconds of stealth/12 seconds traited **Note all initiative is used for this
• Shadow Refuge = 60 second recharge/48 seconds traited = 15 seconds of stealth/20 seconds traited
• Smokescreen + Heartseeker x 5 = 30 second recharge/24 seconds traited = 15 seconds of stealth/20 seconds traited
• Blinding Powder = 40 second recharge/32 seconds traited = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited
• Hide in Shadows = 30 second recharge = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited.
• Cloak and Dagger= 5 second recharge = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited. **Note this requires the skill to connect with a target.
• Steal (when traited) = 35 second recharge/ 21.5 seconds when traited = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited.

Best case scenario for stealth duration is a thief with 15 points in shadow arts is a build like the following template:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaVlsMp7pVPx8JsPFRRBwXA

Here’s why I don’t understand why people think Permastealth is good for winning fights.

• The rotations to maintain stealth would leave the thief constantly without initiative to use offensively.
• The thief gets revealed for 4 seconds if they choose to attack before they can stealth again.
• The thief can’t do damage while in stealth
• The thief is only allowing cool downs to recharge while in stealth, which are cooldowns for more stealthing, and the enemies cool downs are recharging too.
• Perminantly stealthing means you’d never be doing anything

Counters to stealth in general

• Blackpowder – Start attacking it, so that when a thief heartseekers through it you hit him, and he will sometimes heartseeker you and reveal himself. Obviously don’t stand in it when you are attacking it.
• Smokescreen – Same counters as blackpowder
• Heartseeker – Interrupting heartseeker doesn’t allow the leap finisher to complete, preventing the thief from entering stealth through smoke fields.
• Shadow Refuge – Use knockbacks, launches, and pulls to knock the thief out of the refuge revealing him. AoE the refuge forcing him to take damage.
• Hide in Shadows – Interrupt hte 1 second cast time
• Already in stealth – Use an auto attack chain to tell if you are hitting him, and keep track of his location. Use AoE’s to damage him. Recognize how much stealth a thief would have obtained depending on the skill used. Distance will work for the short duration stealths, so will blocks and blinds. Combine blocks and blinds and distance and evades for longer duration stealths.

Because permastealth loses offensive capabilities, and because there are numerous counters to stealth, I am failing to understand what people are complaining about.

Shockwave.1230:

Stealth Available to Thief

• Blackpowder + Heartseeker x 3 = 15 second recharge = 9 seconds of stealth/12 seconds traited **Note all initiative is used for this
• Shadow Refuge = 60 second recharge/48 seconds traited = 15 seconds of stealth/20 seconds traited
• Smokescreen + Heartseeker x 5 = 30 second recharge/24 seconds traited = 15 seconds of stealth/20 seconds traited
• Blinding Powder = 40 second recharge/32 seconds traited = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited
• Hide in Shadows = 30 second recharge = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited.
• Cloak and Dagger= 5 second recharge = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited. **Note this requires the skill to connect with a target.
• Steal (when traited) = 35 second recharge/ 21.5 seconds when traited = 3 seconds of stealth/4 seconds traited.

Best case scenario for stealth duration is a thief with 15 points in shadow arts is a build like the following template:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaVlsMp7pVPx8JsPFRRBwXA

Here’s why I don’t understand why people think Permastealth is good for winning fights.

• The rotations to maintain stealth would leave the thief constantly without initiative to use offensively.
• The thief gets revealed for 4 seconds if they choose to attack before they can stealth again.
• The thief can’t do damage while in stealth
• The thief is only allowing cool downs to recharge while in stealth, which are cooldowns for more stealthing, and the enemies cool downs are recharging too.
• Perminantly stealthing means you’d never be doing anything

Counters to stealth in general

• Blackpowder – Start attacking it, so that when a thief heartseekers through it you hit him, and he will sometimes heartseeker you and reveal himself. Obviously don’t stand in it when you are attacking it.
• Smokescreen – Same counters as blackpowder
• Heartseeker – Interrupting heartseeker doesn’t allow the leap finisher to complete, preventing the thief from entering stealth through smoke fields.
• Shadow Refuge – Use knockbacks, launches, and pulls to knock the thief out of the refuge revealing him. AoE the refuge forcing him to take damage.
• Hide in Shadows – Interrupt hte 1 second cast time
• Already in stealth – Use an auto attack chain to tell if you are hitting him, and keep track of his location. Use AoE’s to damage him. Recognize how much stealth a thief would have obtained depending on the skill used. Distance will work for the short duration stealths, so will blocks and blinds. Combine blocks and blinds and distance and evades for longer duration stealths.

Because permastealth loses offensive capabilities, and because there are numerous counters to stealth, I am failing to understand what people are complaining about.

You never use shadow arts in spvp. Perma stealth is for trolling in wvw.