Guild Wars 2

18k hp, carrion ammy, typical p/d, 300 traited toughness, and i get killed in one hit from litch? I wouldn’t mind if DS was a squishy kill but is not.

Please stop necro DS from two shotting and lich from 1 shotting thief

“So.. Please MTV pimp my ride!”

Actually if you go full bunk with vitality and protection lich will kill you in almost 2 hits (earth runes) so it seems.

No, you don’t get killed in 1 hit from Lich. You also don’t get 2-shot by DS.

I’m assuming this is in sPvP. If this is in WvW, and they use Lich, why don’t you Stealth and run for 20 seconds? If I ever popped lich form in WvW, the first thing a Thief would do is pop Shadow Refuge. The second is spam /laugh.

Or they could Shadowstep away and just stay at 1200 range.
Or they could switch to Shortbow and Infil Shot out of range and wait.
Or they could blow Dagger Storm.
Or they could use Smoke Screen.
Or they could stand on the Lich and use Black Power.
Or they could Blinding Powder and run out of range while stealthed.
Or they could use a Steal + CnD combo to get into stealth and run out of range.
Or they could simply jink back and forth by quickly tapping ‘a’ and ‘d’ in an alternating fashion while continuing their DPS rotation and watching all of the Lich projectiles miss from even a moderately close range.

However, a Thief complaining about being 1-shot has a magic to it. Lich is imbalanced, but Backstab is fine, I’m sure. A 3-minute cooldown Elite that’s only good for one type of build and has a large number of counters probably shouldn’t be very strong, I guess.

Yes the point is lich is imbalanced.
exaggerations aside. DS/lich damage should at least be looked at again.

Why you don’t hide in stealth while the linch form goes?

In WvW a necromancer in linch form can destroy you, ONLY IF, you stay there to receive the hits.

Its like complaining about meteor shower from a elementalist, you have to be very kiteen to fight in the hot area.

The only time i got kill by linch form is when they caugh me with low hp and dont see it coming.

IMO engi turrets are a lot more devastating that this, and still i don’t think they are OP.

Maybe thief is not the right profession for you…

Zelulose.8695:

Yes the point is lich is imbalanced.
exaggerations aside. DS/lich damage should at least be looked at again.

If you’ve ever played necro, you should know that nerfing the DS auto (or lich auto for that matter) would pretty much destroy all power builds, which is probably the most viable way to play necro in every game mode. Yes Death Perception builds hit like a truck, and they are like firing squads in WvW, but that part of balance. Necromancers can’t escape or deal with CC at all. They either have to kill or be killed, or hope that a distraction lets them run. A good thief should have little trouble with a power necro, with enough CC/blinds and escapes to come out on top in the end. Although condi thief is kind of weak for anything besides roaming, since it only kills things that dont try and run away.

If in spvp, a necro runs a power DS build, they likely go with zerker stats, so if they are CCed or ganged up on, they can go down in seconds, especially if they don’t have life force. The damage of Death Shroud auto is in a great place, and if you struggle with it, then you don’t know how to deal with the necro’s obvious weaknesses and flaws which make it a meh class outside of well-bombing and AoE chilling everything in WvW groupplay (which needs DS burst to function, hence bombing).

Zelulose.8695:

18k hp, carrion ammy, typical p/d, 300 traited toughness, and i get killed in one hit from litch? I wouldn’t mind if DS was a squishy kill but is not.

Please stop necro DS from two shotting and lich from 1 shotting thief

‘typical p/d’ sorry, no sympathy for such a ‘cheese’ set up.

You are literally the worst player I’ve ever seen on this forum. L2P a real spec, not P/D condi, and learn how to counter a highly telegraphed ELITE SKILL.

Lich problems are L2P problems at the end of the day.

Zelulose.8695:

Yes the point is lich is imbalanced.
exaggerations aside. DS/lich damage should at least be looked at again.

You know, I always liked the following quote:

“If it don’t take practice, it don’t take skill”.

Perhaps you should practice against Lich. When you find one of a very large number of counters to it (I listed several for Thieves specifically off the top of my head combined with a cursory look at their utilities), maybe you won’t feel it needs to be looked at again.

Though if you want Lich Form looked at, then I’ll acquiesce, so long as you consider the possibility that Backstab needs a 3 minute cooldown as well.

In pvp, lich form is like a beacon. You either run from it or focus it, and its easy to be overwhelmed in that form due to no utility/healing skills.

It does the trick if they don’t notice me (use it off in the distance, damage isn’t range related) but I ALWAYS get focus fired and often have my stability stripped. I don’t know where the issue with lich form is lol, pretty hit or miss if you ask me.

Well that’s why I post on forums. To get impute. I am aware that every build can be countered. Also, based on popular opinion, lich is completely balanced. I’ll just have to play a different thief build since p/d is shunned in order to boost my social status. thanks guys.

Elitist.8701:

You are literally the worst player I’ve ever seen on this forum. L2P a real spec, not P/D condi, and learn how to counter a highly telegraphed ELITE SKILL.

This. Props to you. P/D condi deserves all the hate it gets. Same as PU Mesmers.

Zelulose.8695:

18k hp, carrion ammy, typical p/d, 300 traited toughness, and i get killed in one hit from litch? I wouldn’t mind if DS was a squishy kill but is not.

Please stop necro DS from two shotting and lich from 1 shotting thief

You should use a sleight of hand spec, then necros that use lich form become a thing of the past.

But yes….another thief QQ against necro thread ftw.

When i pop Lich form in WVW I do it because i have suppoort and poisitioning to protect me and distract a group while I do damage. Alternatively I pop it coz im having a hard time and Im hoping the sight of lich will cause dps to back off for a few seconds, while cooldowns come back.

Literally anyone strafing or dodging or LOSing or stealthing can avoid it all. Some people decide to stand there and tank it and then die! Would you tank thief burst or ele burst? is a giant undead green norn in a skirt not a big enough sign to change your tactics or do you need a flashing message on your screen that says ‘’Lich been popped kitten’

Its funny to have a thief complaining about another classes burst., especially when that class has no stealth, invulnerabity, vigor, aegis, block, distortion, evade, shadowsteps, etc etc.

Alternatively you could have someone strip lichs stability, knock it down and kitten it. But then youd have to rely on either common sense or an ally if you simply refuse to use any of the MANY tools at a thieves disposal to handle lich.

You can’t get 1 shot by a lich if you have 18k hp. It just won’t happen. 2 shot maybe, but if I were to take a guess I’d say you’d probably get 3 shot.

As for necromancer survivability, a glassy one would take around 30k damage to take down, and if you know what you’re doing, they have no way to really stop it. Necromancers have ridiculous amounts of firepower when built for it, but they can’t deal with focus. A decent thief on the other hand should never be pressured down – if you’re taking damage, leave and come back before the poor necro can recover.

Zelulose.8695:

Yes the point is lich is imbalanced.
exaggerations aside. DS/lich damage should at least be looked at again.

How why is it imbalanced?? Too many players are coming and crying on the forums about an elite that’s on a LONG cooldown and can easily avoided by numerous means, you can even avoid the auto-attack damage by just strafing from side to side.

STOP BEING BAD AND TRYING TO FACE TANK LICH THEN COMING ON THE FORUMS AND CRYING ABOUT IT.

Thanks.

It’s so funny because I play power necro….. (among other things.) I have even gone against teams that have brought two power lich necro’s and they popped lich at the same time. Immediately after one of our thieves used steal the mesmer used null field and I popped lich. Needless to say those two necro’s died. Lich has a counter and you play one of the classes that can counter lich the best. You’re bad and need to learn to play against this very obvious and counterable elite. Maybe we should change bask venom?

Also Steal… STEAL STEAL STEAL STEAL… The only boon that a lich necro has is stability… It just so happens thieves have the most spammable boon removal in the game… Herpa kitten a

can’t remember how many times i’ve typed this,
the projectile from lich moves VERY slowly, just keep your distance and strafe until lich form ends,

or since you’re playing pistol just pop blind fields on them and auto attack lol.

Yeah, Lich form deals INSANE damage. Like wtfpwn kind of damage. I don’t really know Necromancers well enough to qualify this as OP, but it seems broken compared to before the patch.

Anyway, Trickery allows you to steal their Stability and then you can pound them with CC like Pistol Whip.

But if you’re playing P/D, then simply don’t engage them until Lich form has expired.

Lets see 3k hits on lich on a non crit build, 7-9k on glass cannon
6k hit on non crit backstab, 13-15k on glass cannon…

Truly imbalanced for a skill which doesnt allow the owner to use his utilities or self heal.

Dumbest thread ever, move on

You guys need more practice with Zaishen in the queens gambit. Go play against liadri. She uses the same projectile attack as lich. After several attempts I’m sure you can learn how to avoid these attacks.

Zelulose.8695:

Actually if you go full bunk with vitality and protection lich will kill you in almost 2 hits (earth runes) so it seems.

Uh huh.
With his 50k pre-Toughness crits, I presume? :P

Come on, if you just want to vent, do it on 4chan. And if you want to post about balance, at least stop making stuff up.

Dee Jay.2460:

Yeah, Lich form deals INSANE damage. Like wtfpwn kind of damage. I don’t really know Necromancers well enough to qualify this as OP, but it seems broken compared to before the patch.

I think the reasoning is that outside of being AFK or being ganged up on, you really can’t get hit by the Lich AA.

Luke.4562:

“So.. Please MTV pimp my ride!”

I see what you did there. But honestly the only hard counter I’ve seen to this build is my engis turret reflects and thats with me burning the tool kit shield….not calling it op but it requirers a lot of skill to beat

Hi! I play pretty much every class including thief. (but not Guardian)

Thief in all honest opinion doesnt have too hard a time against Lich form if you remember that any hit will kill you. So you do what all good Thieves do. Wait for an opportunity to dumpster them. For me, since i play S/D on mines, I just wait until I can get a good double 3 combo in. after the stability is ripped, Its easy pickings. I dont even need to stun if I just save all my 3s for when i know they are going to auto. Since they are going to heal, I just apply a mass amount of pressure and they drop. But If I can’t, I leave. I dont stay around and kitten foot at range because that gets you kill vs stealthing or leaving.

Even if the situation is where you are on point in sPvP, its better to leave and reset vs dying and waiting for the CD timer in a good amount of cases. All you need to do is pop back in every now and then with one of your many teleports to keep it uncontested while dodging and waiting it out.

And Yes, people will complain about you playing P/D. Its pretty much the same idea of PU mesmers that people hate. Good sustain, mostly condi and teleporting+ stealthing like mad. It is a good spec, but in all honesty, its more powerful as a spec than the necromancer spec and skill you are complaining about that is vulnerable 100% of the match to anything naturally. And It isnt one hit. Its a combination of two to three hits with the inclusion of Spinal Shivers proccing if they get you with a big claw and you already are under 50% hp. Its similar to getting hit by a Mug-CnD-BS to heartseeker combo in terms of damage spread

He has a point with the one shot part. If the necro is using the Spinal Shivers trait, Sigil of Fire and Sigil of Air, getting one shotted by one “auto-attack” from lich form isn’t actually uncommon, if it crits and the both sigils trigger at the same time. Spinal Shivers scale up in power and crits around 7k while in lich form and the sigils scale up as well + sigil of air can critically hit. In total it can create around 15k dmg from 1 Deathly Claw if it brings you below 50%.

But Lich Form is highly situational, if for instance an angry thief is focusing you while in lich form it’s likely that you will have to cancel the form to use utilities, deathshroud or heal. And in a team fight if they have some bruisers with them, everyone will focus you as soon as you press that button, lone bunkers will often get turned into minced meat though. I find both D/P and S/D effective against Lich Form, P/D will struggle though since it’s “semi-ranged” and Lich form is most effective in mid range, 250-600 of whatever units the game is using to calculate distance, in melee when someone runs around you and dodges like a headless chicken it’s actually quite hard to land attacks, unless they are keyboardturning clickers.

imo, Necro is balanced. It has a couple of great strengths to make up for its severe weaknesses.

Yea Lich can one-shot you, and I’ve been victim of that myself. Granted, I play D/D hyper-burst. If you’re playing a D/P codi thief, I also sincerely doubt you were getting one-shotted as you should be floating considerably more toughness and vitality than a thief like myself which runs with no bonus toughness or vitality in the build an only a few pieces of valkyrie gear post-ferocity (down from full valk). It would and should take two or more hits (assuming you faced a berserker bomb necro and the attacks crit) due to condi builds’ inherently higher toughness and health pools.

Ultimately you shouldn’t have engaged that 1v2 without focusing the necro first. And if you lost the 1v1, well, you’ll need to time dodges better or utilize your #3 to get distance, reset the fight, and apply the correct amount of pressure.

That said, a p/d condi thief can have issues fighting a necromancer (depending on the build) due to condition transfers returning those stacks of torment back to the thief. Aside from Shadow Arts builds, there are no ways to reliably deal with torment as a thief. After that first hit, it would be advisable to skip town if you know the necro has that available.

you deserved to be destroyed for playing shadow art PD. gg
can’t burst that lich downnnnnn.

Zelulose.8695:

Yes the point is lich is imbalanced.
exaggerations aside. DS/lich damage should at least be looked at again.

As soon as stability issues get fixed

Lich form attacks are very strong. I encountered one a bit after the feature patch. And was decimated before I knew what hit me. The damage is EXTREMELY high, perhaps too high with respect to having no obvious animations or cast times. In the shot below, I had around 2.2k toughness.

While there are ways to deal with lich form (blinds, aegis), I feel the damage is much too high.

Aza.2105:

no obvious animations or cast times

Come on now, the projectiles are pretty slow and the necro turns into a glowing green giant, I’m not really sure HOW it could be made any more obvious.

Cameron.6450:

Aza.2105:

no obvious animations or cast times

Come on now, the projectiles are pretty slow and the necro turns into a glowing green giant, I’m not really sure HOW it could be made any more obvious.

Being a glowing green giant isn’t a animation, its a transformation.

Aza.2105:

Cameron.6450:

Aza.2105:

no obvious animations or cast times

Come on now, the projectiles are pretty slow and the necro turns into a glowing green giant, I’m not really sure HOW it could be made any more obvious.

Being a glowing green giant isn’t a animation, its a transformation.

Isnt the giant green waving arm obvious enough for you? Or how about the incredibly slow moving and visible projectile?

Aza.2105:

no obvious animations or cast times

Aza.2105:

*no obvious animations *

Aza.2105:

• obvious animations *

You’re joking right?!?!

You have got to be kidding, NO ONE can be that humanly bad to die to lich form as a thief.

THE NECRO IS A GIANT GREEN GLOWING BEACON.

not only is this an elite, this is an elite that tells people to come destroy you.
An ELITE skill, that you can outrun and outrange is too powerful?!

Next we will start to complain about how OP juggernaut and tornado are.

Here is a better compromise.
Put basalisk venom on a 90s CD and make blinding powder a dark field.
Lets nerf those first yea?

People actually use lich form? The only time I’ve ever used lich form is tower flipping or camp flipping.

p/d condispam thief is one of, if not the most cheesiest build in the game.

Solori.6025:

Aza.2105:

no obvious animations or cast times

Aza.2105:

*no obvious animations *

Aza.2105:

• obvious animations *

Next we will start to complain about how OP juggernaut and tornado are.

Here is a better compromise.
Put basalisk venom on a 90s CD and make blinding powder a dark field.
Lets nerf those first yea?

i’d take take that trade. But you have to get rid of lich’s 30 second stability.

gartz.7013:

Solori.6025:

Aza.2105:

no obvious animations or cast times

Aza.2105:

*no obvious animations *

Aza.2105:

• obvious animations *

Next we will start to complain about how OP juggernaut and tornado are.

Here is a better compromise.
Put basalisk venom on a 90s CD and make blinding powder a dark field.
Lets nerf those first yea?

i’d take take that trade. But you have to get rid of lich’s 30 second stability.

Yes truly 100% agreement, it being stability is stupid, OBVIOUSLY, all transforms should be a innate unstoppable/shade effect with 0 cast time, same for death shroud too if traited (and yes i am seriously with snarky overtones).

I remember when zelulose was griping about how mesmers were OP and he had the absolute best mesmer build in the game and that his build is why mesmers should be nerfed. IIRC he 1v1’d one of the more prominent mesmers in the community, (mesmer community not the self proclaimed pvp mesmer gods.) and he got absolutely destroyed with in a few seconds….. So anything that he gripes about take it with a grain of salt because well it seems that he just doesn’t know how to deal with some of the weaker builds or a class that has no stability outside of lich form on one of the classes best equipped to strip said stability. Baddies gonbe bad.

a thief is complaining about high damage numbers? wait even worse a p/d thief? sir u just made my day. Fights against p/d thief half the time is never ending because they cant stop resetting the fight.

Cameron.6450:

Aza.2105:

no obvious animations or cast times

Come on now, the projectiles are pretty slow and the necro turns into a glowing green giant, I’m not really sure HOW it could be made any more obvious.

maybe a blinking red arrow about the necros head and a countdown of the deathly claw that is inc would help so people really see that they are in danger.

Steal or remove stability, then daze/stun it.

The only times I can recall being one-shotted or two-shotted by a Necro are when the stars aligned with their sigil procs, and I failed to dodge.

Mostly due to the latter.

Reroll necro or engi problem solved it take 2 minutes.

Just to join in, i’m glad you were destroyed playing a p/d thief.

You play the cheesiest lamest spec in the game, and still do badly and come here to complain about it. That there shows what sort of a player you are.

Btw, it’s easy to avoid being hit by lich projectiles, you don’t even have to use dodges. Of all the things in this game, Lich form damage is somewhere at the bottom.

Zelulose.8695:

18k hp, carrion ammy, typical p/d, 300 traited toughness, and i get killed in one hit from litch? I wouldn’t mind if DS was a squishy kill but is not.

Please stop necro DS from two shotting and lich from 1 shotting thief

power necro has it’s bs but it’s a lot like burst ele in that once they pull off their offensive attack they’re mostly screwed if they didnt kill what they aimed for.

lich is easy enough to take out on s/d or even d/p since their attacks are predictable and they have extremely limited movement, power necro’s biggest threat (like any burster) is when they engage in support of an ally. if you see one pop lich or start hitting you hard while in a teamfight, focus them immediately.

my first recommendation is to stop using p/d condi.

You play the cheesiest lamest thief spec in the game, and still do badly and come here to complain about it. That there shows what sort of a player you are.

once you get serious, here’s some basic rotations i use against power necro when they enter lich:

s/d:
steal (stab strip) -> auto attack -> c&d + tactical strike -> auto attack -> fear from steal -> auto attack -> basi venom -> auto attack -> c&d + tactical strike -> etc

the idea is to stunlock them hard and get as much damage as you possibly can onto them while they’re unable to do anything about it. the above rotation can vary in order depending on the situation, but your first priority will invariably be to strip their stability; once you do that, lich becomes a significantly reduced threat due to their extreme vulnerability to stuns.

d/p:
bp + hs + steal combo (stab strip + damage) -> backstab -> bp on top of them + auto attack/shadow shot -> bp + hs + backstab -> basi venom -> etc

d/p is a lot simpler, you’re just trying to make sure that they stayed blind as long as possible while getting in some serious damage from backstabs. basi venom here can be used more liberally as a general stun to counter lich since you have access to headshot, which can counter necro heal very easily on it’s own. this rotation takes advantage of lich’s lethargic movement and attack speed.

now you wont always be able to engage under these terms and actually take the necro down but that’s okay usually. you’re a thief. you can just disengage and kite them. while this strategy is effective against all professions, it’s hilariously effective against necro due to their severe lack of mobility. once they pop lich or ds, just distance yourself out of their reach and kite, once their offense is exhausted enjoy an easy kill. this is usually a safer strategy but always results in longer fights, which isn’t always desirable for point fights in pvp but makes little difference in wvw.

i will say this however, power necro is really a very mindless build, but im happy it’s not minionmancer. lesser of two evils i suppose.

“power necro is really a very mindless build”

I laughed. If anything, I’m happier if people think Power Necro simply involves going into Lich Form, spamming 1, then going into Death Shroud and spamming 1. I bet people have absolutely no idea that a Lich can strip enemy boons and remove ally condis in an AoE.

Also, the last time I used Lich Form in WvW, I watched the projectiles. If someone was running at any angle that wasn’t directly away from me, the projectile would miss 100% of the time. They didn’t have to change directions, or jink, or anything. It would just fly behind them. I know someone told me here that the projectile tries to lead the target properly, but in my experience it fails to do so 100% of the time.

Which, if true (I would need to officially test, but I know I’ve seen it recurring), all you have to do to avoid a Lich’s attacks is circle strafe at range.

I actually got to use my Plague counter the other day in sPvP. A Necro attacks me 1v1 on a node, goes Lich, I go Plague, blind him, and even had time to /laugh.

There are so many counters to Lich including all of the reflects, simple movement, moa morph (I assume it works), blinds, boon strip+CC, that it better do strong damage or else it would be useless.