Guild Wars 2

Tommyknocker.6089:

So I haven’t cheated at all, I did however feel cheated by ANet for once again including a PvP matchup within what is once again an otherwise a friendly environment.

Heaven forbid a variety of content.

I’d have more concern for it if it wasn’t for the fact that, not even starting a race, there’s 19 different achievements to get the meta achievement.

Of which, two are talk-tos, and one is gained when doing another 7.

I will grant you it goes down to 17 if you exclude the World Vs Kite achievement, which depending on WHEN isn’t that hard to get (the run I got it on was PVP free, other than making sure not to torch my fellow JP runners who happened to be on a different server; my other, first try did have some SOS camping the arena.)

Rajani Isa.6294:

Tommyknocker.6089:

So I haven’t cheated at all, I did however feel cheated by ANet for once again including a PvP matchup within what is once again an otherwise a friendly environment.

Heaven forbid a variety of content.

I’d have more concern for it if it wasn’t for the fact that, not even starting a race, there’s 19 different achievements to get the meta achievement.

Plus you might have noted that many of the events have had PvP mini-games. Halloween had Reaper’s Rumble and Lunatic Inquisition. Wintersday had Snowball Fight. Southsun had Crab Toss. Dragon Bash had Dragon Ball. All but Halloween had achievement points linked to the mini-games.

None cost any money and all added variety and flavour to the game. May not be to your taste, but does that mean that they shouldn’t offer to others?

LunaticChaos.7138:

snip

Really over-analyzing it.

Patronizing would be if we were much more active in telling people that we got first, but since we’re so kind, we’re letting them win. Myself, I just hang out at the end if I happen to get there first, and usually mention it once or twice if someone brings up that they can’t win.

If I was really crossing the finish line every time, about 90% of the races I’m in would result in just me getting first. Some people are going to have a really hard time placing first anyway, what with lag and bad luck.

Nothing about trying to be a jerk. I want to race because I enjoy the race. I want to try to get a fast time because that’s what makes it a challenge. I want to wait at the end because someone else did that for me, and I was grateful. And others have been grateful to me for waiting as well. Hopefully then they’ll be able to just have fun racing and get better too.

Tommyknocker did say “Once again”. Which is part of his complaint.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I don’t really see it a patronizing unless you’re trying to look down on others. I always cheer people on as they cross.

I mean, I could purposefully go slowly and not even bother to try. But that takes the fun out of it for me. I prefer to challenge myself for a good time. I race the clock, not others. Plus I like to see people as they finish. Like a bystander cheering on the competitors.

Yes, some may not like the idea of ‘being allowed to win’. Most just want the achievement and don’t care how they place. I prefer to cater towards the latter.

As I said, it may not be the intention, but that is what you’re saying by doing so. Whether someone is bothered by it or even would take it as such is also up to their perception. To me, doing that is patronizing and disrespectful to everybody else in the race and in addition to that also to everybody who works hard for that achievement.
Sometimes the worst patronization is unintentional.

I don’t go slow myself, I’ll not try to go absolutely top speed either if I’m outclassing a room. And I’ll cut down on my offensive power use as well. I handicap myself doing so but I don’t give people the win, I’m still treating them as someone who could beat me and thus I’m trying to win.

Gabby.3205:

I think you are over analyzing it.

We run to the finishing line because we are STILL competing and we STILL want to win. The only reason for us not to go ahead and cross the line is because we don’t need the achievement anymore and want someone else to get it. We want to race, not to take a stroll. That doesn’t mean that we think that we are better than the next person, it just means that though we got lucky that time we do not need that luck anymore, so we are passing the ball.
Yell at us if you want. Most people will get what we are trying to do instead of over analyzing it, and that’s why they thank us instead of yelling at us like you said you would do. You know, not everybody is a jerk, but maybe you are just one of these people that thinks that everybody else is in fact a jerk, no matter what they do. If that’s the case, well, nothing I can say will change the way you think, since you will just label me as a jerk too. I must be a jerk for porting people to the goggles with my mesmer, it must be disrespectful to them because I must be implying that they can’t get to them without my help, right? I don’t think so. I prefer to look at everyone from an optimistic perspective and assume that they are doing whatever they are doing with good intentions.
And “how it should be” is how each one of us like it better. If people are having fun, great, keep it up.

What I said in response to Syn is applicable too but to comment on your more specific case:
A jumping puzzle is an inevitability, you’ll eventually get it if you keep trying. No matter who you are you’ll eventually succeed. A race is just that, a race. It isn’t inevitable that you’ll win, you have to try, get a little lucky, and be skillful to win.
If a jumping puzzle comes out, I for one refuse to take portals until I do it legit. Its a matter of pride at having earned your achievement the hard way. Being able to look at one’s achievement score and say “I earned every point of that.” I absolutely will not let my own success be tarnished by anybody else having helped me get it. After that, if someone’s doing mass ports I’ll accept that, but I won’t ask or demand I get a portal. If someone offers to portal me specifically, I’ll tell them I want to try it myself, if I keep failing to the point of annoyance and they still offer I’ll tip them for their trouble and use it.

However lets look at the OP here, the entire reason he brought this up is because he was getting harassed for being competitive. If no one had harassed him he probably would not have posted this at all. While he hasn’t argued things properly, the very valid concern he was bringing up remains. That he was playing the game as intended and he was harassed for it by all manner of spitefulness. And people in this own thread are calling him out for being selfish and mean spirited if at the very least indirectly.

BlueSoda.6297:

ESKan.6782:

I’ve been called selfish for crossing the finish line. Made me do a double take, really.

Same happened to me, got a lot worse than being called selfish though :p Had to report several people.

We had someone articulate your side’s point very well. I decided to articulate the opposing side, or at least the reasonable aspect of the opposing side.
I admitted its your own right to do so, just as its my right to cross the finish line right in front of you if you chose to do that. I don’t deserve to be harassed for it if I choose to do so, least of all when I get there first.

Though the fact that this is an issue is a slight failing on how these minigames are setup as its only random matchup. The option to play with friends or have the option to have casual and competitive rooms (with achievements for both) would have been ideal.

Coldin.2840:

LunaticChaos.7138:

snip

Really over-analyzing it.

Patronizing would be if we were much more active in telling people that we got first, but since we’re so kind, we’re letting them win. Myself, I just hang out at the end if I happen to get there first, and usually mention it once or twice if someone brings up that they can’t win.

And while I did address the points in your post here. I really have to take issue with your “We’re so kind” comment. That’s really bloody arrogant to just come out and say that.

LunaticChaos.7138:

And while I did address the points in your post here. I really have to take issue with your “We’re so kind” comment. That’s really bloody arrogant to just come out and say that.

Not sure if you really read my post. I was saying we were NOT doing that. It would be arrogant if we were doing that. Which we are not.

LunaticChaos.7138:

As I said, it may not be the intention, but that is what you’re saying by doing so. Whether someone is bothered by it or even would take it as such is also up to their perception. To me, doing that is patronizing and disrespectful to everybody else in the race and in addition to that also to everybody who works hard for that achievement.
Sometimes the worst patronization is unintentional.

I don’t go slow myself, I’ll not try to go absolutely top speed either if I’m outclassing a room. And I’ll cut down on my offensive power use as well. I handicap myself doing so but I don’t give people the win, I’m still treating them as someone who could beat me and thus I’m trying to win.

By that same definition purposefully holding yourself back is no less patronizing.

And I’ve never had a single person mad at me for being ‘patronizing’. I have had many people thank be for being nice and helping them get the achievement. So I’ll keep being nice and friendly. I don’t care if you consider that patronizing. Those I am helping consider it helpful. And that’s all I care about. Helping others. Giving back to the community.

LunaticChaos.7138:

However lets look at the OP here, the entire reason he brought this up is because he was getting harassed for being competitive. If no one had harassed him he probably would not have posted this at all. While he hasn’t argued things properly, the very valid concern he was bringing up remains. That he was playing the game as intended and he was harassed for it by all manner of spitefulness. And people in this own thread are calling him out for being selfish and mean spirited if at the very least indirectly.

People harassing him for taking first is not right. It’s his prerogative as the one to get to the line first to chose to win or pass on the win to help others. He shouldn’t be forced to concede if he doesn’t want to. I don’t think anyone here would say that he should have to. He’s just playing the game as it was originally intended, competition and all. There is nothing wrong with that.

But just as his choice to win is valid, our choice to concede victory is no less valid.

Coldin.2840:

LunaticChaos.7138:

And while I did address the points in your post here. I really have to take issue with your “We’re so kind” comment. That’s really bloody arrogant to just come out and say that.

Not sure if you really read my post. I was saying we were NOT doing that. It would be arrogant if we were doing that. Which we are not.

My apologies there. Late night and I just got through with a big post, so yeah I sort of glossed over that part. I payed more attention to what you said in argument.

SynfulChaot.3169:

By that same definition purposefully holding yourself back is no less patronizing.

And I’ve never had a single person mad at me for being ‘patronizing’. I have had many people thank be for being nice and helping them get the achievement. So I’ll keep being nice and friendly. I don’t care if you consider that patronizing. Those I am helping consider it helpful. And that’s all I care about. Helping others. Giving back to the community.

Perhaps, but it is not obvious so no one will feel like I went easy on them, especially as I won’t mention it so they’ll never know. If I don’t need to go all out to win then no reason to do so. If someone catches up I have a sudden scramble to catch up to my own hubris which can lead to unexpected intense moments or someone tags me with a lightning bolt or gust midjump without me having stability I’ll suddenly lose a lot of ground. It remains a competition, and if I lose, its because I got arrogant. So I will have lost because it was my own fault not because I took a dive. I walk away knowing if I tried harder I would have won, they would walk away having legitimately beat me nonetheless as I lost fair and square because of my own arrogance.

And I think I’ve acknowledged in both my posts it is your right to take that dive. However if you do so it is your responsibility to realize that there will be people who agree with me and take offense at it even if they don’t say anything.

@LunaticChaos

Now I see the problem. The race is just a giant timed jumping puzzle with some specific mechanics, for me, and that’s why I can’t see how letting someone else win would be any different from giving portals in any other jumping puzzle. You obviusly do not think like that, and that’s why we can not get to an agreement other than being rude to the person that is winning is a bad thing (and I said that already).

LunaticChaos.7138:

And I think I’ve acknowledged in both my posts it is your right to take that dive. However if you do so it is your responsibility to realize that there will be people who agree with me and take offense at it even if they don’t say anything.

Yes. People may take offence. I understand that. But I’ll focus instead on those that are grateful for the help. They are more numerous.

Gabby.3205:

@LunaticChaos

Now I see the problem. The race is just a giant timed jumping puzzle with some specific mechanics, for me, and that’s why I can’t see how letting someone else win would be any different from giving portals in any other jumping puzzle. You obviusly do not think like that, and that’s why we can not get to an agreement other than being rude to the person that is winning is a bad thing (and I said that already).

That’s a good way of putting it.

It’s basically Mad King’s Clock Tower, except only the first person to the end gets a title.

@Gabby
To me its a pvp race, its set apart from the rest of the world, it has concrete rewards that are actually pretty rewarding. To me if it was a pve content it should have been in the regular world.
And I’m primarily a PVE guy, I rarely PVP as I don’t particularly like to, but I love these minigames and find the competition rewarding as we’re all on equal playing fields more or less, latency being the one catching point which even that’s not consistently the same for everyone.
I regularly walk guildies and friends through jumping puzzles and recently helped some do the Lessons of the Sky Achieve. And I don’t play mesmer so I showed them how to do the jumps for it all. Spending half a day to do it. If someone asks me how to do something I’ll tell them or show them if its not overly out of my way. If I see someone down or getting mobbed I hop in and help them out.

@Synful
Though I do ask you try not to devalue the other side’s point. We may be less numerous but our point is no less valid to us than yours is to you.

@Coldin
Personally loved the tower. Bloody thing took me 7-9 hours to beat and my carpal acted up something fierce from it all, but was it EVER rewarding to have finished it myself.

LunaticChaos.7138:

Though I do ask you try not to devalue the other side’s point. We may be less numerous but our point is no less valid to us than yours is to you.

I think that such a view is selfish and I will not stop thinking that it is. Your opinion maybe valid to you. That I will admit. But I will not say that I feel it is valid.

BlueSoda.6297:

Essence Snow.3194:

Since the changes in the update I have noticed it become more toxic than before. Players like the OP (assumption) really suck the community out of the events. Bad change imo.

Wow that’s really kind of mean to say. I don’t “suck the community” out of this game by being competitive, this is PVP, the game is made so that you beat other people in a race. Just because I don’t choose to cheat to help other people doesn’t make me a bad guy, and it’s the people like you who choose to harass me that caused me to post about this in the fist place.

There’s something to consider… you know that guy that stopped, and the guy that was in second who took first for the win and achievement?

You were losing to them regardless. Whatever place you were going to finish you still finished in.

SynfulChaot.3169:

LunaticChaos.7138:

Though I do ask you try not to devalue the other side’s point. We may be less numerous but our point is no less valid to us than yours is to you.

I think that such a view is selfish and I will not stop thinking that it is. Your opinion maybe valid to you. That I will admit. But I will not say that I feel it is valid.

Then I respond with that your opinion devalues and trivializes the hard work those of us who earn our achievements put into them and is equally as invalid. In addition to promoting the entitlement others feel to just be handed their achievements. Reducing the game to nothing more than a fancy checklist.
If you’re not willing to acknowledge that we who feel this way have a point, whether you agree its more important or not, then why should we acknowledge yours?

BlueSoda.6297:

slaney.4250:

Maybe Anet can install some kind of hall monitor type thing to stop this outrageous behaviour of people helping people….or maybe, just maybe they have better things to be bothered about?

It’s helping sure, but it is also cheating and exploiting. It’s people getting something they didn’t work for and didn’t earn.

You mean like all of the pve players getting those boosts from WvW even though they don’t set a foot in there?

Well, if helping people who need the 1st place achievement is considered cheating, then i guess i am a cheater, and i will continue to be one. If you want a proper PvP environment, go do some TPvP where people don’t let others win.

Sanctum Sprint is a temporary minigame that means nothing to me, other than a little bit of fun and where latency plays a massive part on the outcome. It’s laughable to call this minigame competitive.

so do you feel proud and wear your new title with pride, knowing you beat a ton of others who have lag and can’t even cross the first lightning platform without having failed the jump 10 times at least and lost a good minute of the race?

i think it’s decent of those who have finished and gotten their achievement to let others get theirs. if someone is taking offense and feels like they are being patronized, then they won’t cross that finish line when the one ahead of them stops short of it.

people will always have different values. it’s fine that you have yours and i respect that. i have major lag and i rubberband int he enw zone walking around. there’s no way i can compete, even if i wanted to. i don’t think i can finish 25 races without a lot of frustration. i don’t think these kind souls would be abel to wait that long for me to cross the finish lnie s first, without it being extremely coordinated with everyone in the race. i want to get the achievement. i want to play the race for competition. for fun. i want to see if i can repeatedly beat my own time. i want to see if i can discover new short cuts and run a perfect run. but i can’t.

you’re playing for the competition. others are playing for the achievement. you don’t see people complaining to tell you to let them win, do you? if you are so unlucky to run into a group that doesn’t play the way you do, then leave a find a new one. it’s the same, if someone’s who’s looking for a group that will help them get their achieve run into a group where the majority are like you, then they’ll leave. so don’t tell me you are forced to look for a new race because they don’t play the way you want to. how much are you sacrificing for that? does it hurt to be a bigger person once every so often?

just keep in mind, at least you can play the game. obviously, not blaming you, NOR Anet, though i wish i could experience the mini game in its full glory. just don’t take certain things for granted.

Grimno.6172:

Surbrus.6942:

Grimno.6172:

since this content is for everyone and missing out on a title really sucks if there’s no chance to get it back later :<

All that does is cheapen the value of that title. Just like legendary weapons and T3 armour isn’t that prestigious anymore, because it probably just means that the person spent hours upon hours farming CoF P1. Exploiting, fixing races, endless QQ about WvW’s inclusion in the Living World achievement section, all that is doing is killing the prestige from these things. There are already plenty of participation rewards out there.

Well to be fair, those things were gonna have cheapen value anyway.
T3 you can just buy, just do CoF runs and viola.
Legendaries are endgame, so eventually most will go for them. Heck, I’ve almost got one now! lol

No what cheapens it is the Fact that Anet designed it cheapened on purpose.
First it’s only worth 10 AP. You get more than twice that just collecting the stupid crystals on the race course itself. Add to that the randomness of it and Latency. Even spamming grounded, there will be a few times where you just fly off the course for no reason at all (usually lag or a skill not activating when or on-who it should-have). And most of all… it’s a MINIGAME for kittens sakes. It’s supposed to be Trivial. The people who stay in it for hours on end just to deny other first, are really only trolling themselves. Even camping WvW puzzles has a bigger impact on the math (and DubVee rankings sometimes too)

..mainly b/c there’s no where else to go… not without transfering servers, lol.
In sprint, players can just queue for a different instance to avoid griefers and match rigging (including RR-day care-bearing) alike.

I think most people already responded as I would. I too let people cross first if they need it, don’t see the problem with it either.

Anyway, anyone had the following scenario?
Joined a game that was already well on its way, naturally I was positioned last but instead of starting at the starting point it threw me at some random checkpoint midway. I instantly picked up a Time Warp and upon using it I was ported right on the checkpoint before the finish-line, actually finishing first in a run that took me about 20 seconds xD

LunaticChaos.7138:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I think that such a view is selfish and I will not stop thinking that it is. Your opinion maybe valid to you. That I will admit. But I will not say that I feel it is valid.

Then I respond with that your opinion devalues and trivializes the hard work those of us who earn our achievements put into them and is equally as invalid. In addition to promoting the entitlement others feel to just be handed their achievements. Reducing the game to nothing more than a fancy checklist.
If you’re not willing to acknowledge that we who feel this way have a point, whether you agree its more important or not, then why should we acknowledge yours?

I don’t invalidate your achievement. I didn’t make any impact on yours. Unless, of course, you are taking value in your achievement based on the fact that others don’t have it. That ‘value’ I find selfish and abhorrent and I believe has no place in the world.

I’m not handing anything to anyone. Competitors still need to get to the line before the person behind them. And were I not racing, or not racing in their particular game, they would have won.

Even if you are not that good you can get 1st. Not that hard as Crab Toss which was pure PvP. Here it seems you still can get lucky. I got a “real” win yesterday(full match not only 2-3 players). I was good enough to be 4th or 3rd all often… sometimes I made little mistakes at the map for example when it switched from skill3 to 1 falling down or losing a second… but you get to know the map.

And I don’t know shortcuts(other than the last skill or some jump that saves a small little bit – not bigger shortcuts).

But managed to get 1st then. And since it seems the rewards for 1st are not that much bigger…

It is okay as it is. I’d like to see this permanent… instead of boring Belchers Bluff… still need to try that Norn without food buff.

@akamon
Actually I have seen people complaining to me to let them win. I promptly ignore them especially as it was a competitive room. They stayed for 8 races before leaving, and whined the entire time.

And no, I wear my title with pride after wresting it from the hands of three other highly competitive players that made me earn it as we landmined and lightning bolted and gusted each other the entire way. And continue to earn it with victories against other competitive players.

And I’ve addressed the rest of what you said already, I don’t particularly feel like repeating it.

@Synful
I take value in achievements based on how hard it was to get. If people just give others the achievement then it is easy to get and worthless beyond some pretty numbers to add to a growing pile of pretty numbers. Take the Clocktower from Halloween, lots of people finished that. But I value that one far more than Sanctum Sprint because despite the clocktower having no title, it was hard to get and no matter how many people have it that achievement remains hard to get and brings far more personal pride in having done it. The same holds true with the Distinction in Applied Jumping title, that was a lot of hard work to do and no matter how many people have it that doesn’t change.

Most only complete the achievements because they are “completionists” – that’s why a lot of people for example are complaining about achievements being in WvW(or ultrahard dungeons).

Especially if then there are 2 achivements missing(a meta also counting the kites or last time the caches if you don’t get the one in WvW).

If you want real achievements do some stuff not rewarded with an ingame “achievement” and make a thread with screenshot or video… like the guys getting higher and higer at Sanctum even when not needed to get the goggles.

LunaticChaos.7138:

I take value in achievements based on how hard it was to get. If people just give others the achievement then it is easy to get and worthless beyond some pretty numbers to add to a growing pile of pretty numbers. Take the Clocktower from Halloween, lots of people finished that. But I value that one far more than Sanctum Sprint because despite the clocktower having no title, it was hard to get and no matter how many people have it that achievement remains hard to get and brings far more personal pride in having done it. The same holds true with the Distinction in Applied Jumping title, that was a lot of hard work to do and no matter how many people have it that doesn’t change.

I take only the value inherent in the achievement. I don’t care how few or how many have anything. They are not me and their status of possession of it does not affect me in any way whatsoever.

Anyone who needs others to not have something for that object to have value to them I feel sorry for. You are basically saying ‘you need to not have this for it to be important to me’. That is one of the most selfish things I have heard said here.

I will continue to help others as I am an altruist and that is my way.

SynfulChaot.3169:

LunaticChaos.7138:

I take value in achievements based on how hard it was to get. If people just give others the achievement then it is easy to get and worthless beyond some pretty numbers to add to a growing pile of pretty numbers. Take the Clocktower from Halloween, lots of people finished that. But I value that one far more than Sanctum Sprint because despite the clocktower having no title, it was hard to get and no matter how many people have it that achievement remains hard to get and brings far more personal pride in having done it. The same holds true with the Distinction in Applied Jumping title, that was a lot of hard work to do and no matter how many people have it that doesn’t change.

I take only the value inherent in the achievement. I don’t care how few or how many have anything. They are not me and their status of possession of it does not affect me in any way whatsoever.

Anyone who needs others to not have something for that object to have value to them I feel sorry for. You are basically saying ‘you need to not have this for it to be important to me’. That is one of the most selfish things I have heard said here.

I will continue to help others as I am an altruist and that is my way.

Sounds to me you completely did not read my post. I said:

-The difficulty in attaining the achievement is what matters, the number of people who have it is irrelevant. The points are also completely irrelevant for that matter, which seems to be your measurement of worth.
-I value two achievements that lots of people have far more than Sanctum Sprint, one of which was very possible to get as it was something you did at your own pace with plenty of guides on how to do it with about a month to do it in.
-By trivializing the achievement through forfeiting your right to win, you devalue its worth making it as trivial and unnoteworthy as finishing Urmaug’s Secret in LA, something that is easy and takes 45 second to do. The more people like you who do this devalues it ever faster.

If everybody playing the game now who tries legitimately earned this achievement without anyone taking a dive? Great, perfect, no complaints, it was just as difficult as it was designed to be for everyone and everyone earned it. We all get to wear the title with pride.

Well that’s not your problem. You should play the game for fun. If you have fun doing the hard stuff then okay. Then you should not have fun cause you have a achievement that is hard to earn(and complain because others get it in an easier way) but because you had fun doing the hard stuff.

It’s not like there is a real value to the achievement itself – you can’t sell it. And it is not losing selling value if people get it easier.

Make thread and do some ultra hard stuff where no achievements exist and post screens or videos if you want stuff not many others do.

Achievements: Most of people ware “completionists” and want all the achievements. That’s just how it is. The “value” of the achivement to me is only that it fills the slot and looking colored and not greyed out… cause it does not look good(I think they even made it so some achievements that you can’t obtain anymore don’t even get displayed anymore – which is nice for the looks… no grey stuff you can’t get anymore… cause they know it is important for the majority).

@Lunatic – i don’t condone players that whine for them to be given a free “first place” either. however, if there are those who are willingly giving up their “first place” in any given particular race, then i don’t see a problem with that. so if there are people graceful enough, offering and players humble enough to get their achievement with the help of another gamer, then all the merrier. so there is a difference there.

it’s great that you had the opportunity to battle it out with other competitive players. and you SHOULD wear your new title with pride if that’s the case for you. now let me ask you this – does it belittle your title, if others had gotten it with the help of others? does the title mean that much to you? what does it accomplish? i pray that you don’t let the actions and choices of others affect how you validate and value yourself. of course, it’d be great if it meant more. but the fact is, this game was not created equal to start with. does it mean if someone won their title fair and square without others letting him pass the finish line before hand, but ONLY because the 11 other players were just slow or not good at the race, does it make his Sanctum Sprinter title any less than yours because you had to b attle it out with more competitive players?

at the same time, can you not celebrate the fact that in such a game, we actually ahve players who are willing to help those who need it? even if they didn’t ask for it? the pro-activeness of being kind is hard to come by nowadays and even though it’s a game, i think you need not shun those acts and write them off as cheating or disrespectful immediately. everyone has a story, as do yourself.

you earned it. great. now must you deny the fact that others are getting such achievements through other means, other than your own? it’s great that you treat the game more than just a checklist, but does it mean everyone must play by YOUR standards and by YOUR rules? i don’t think so. it’s unfortunate that you came across people whining for you to let them win. but do you see what you and OP are doing now as well? you’re imposing what you believe to be right and best and the only way unto others as well.

Luthan.5236:

Most only complete the achievements because they are “completionists” – that’s why a lot of people for example are complaining about achievements being in WvW(or ultrahard dungeons).

Wouldn’t they only be… “wannabe completionists” then?
…A real completionist … a real Achiever…
I repeat… a real Achiever…

…already has either the personal skills or the man-power to get it one way or another.
Some of them have an alliance of 20 people online, ready to storm in and take the place by force if they have to…

I hate to keep playing both sides of the fence in this debate, but people need to stop contradicting simple definitions so much.

.

Hell, I just got first in this silly race and I’m a huge under-achiever. A dozen tries is all it took and just being patient (waiting for the ringers to leave). I also run those “hard dungeons” out of sheer boredom or just being randomly invited by ppl who mistake me for being some kind of achiever b/c I have above average reflexes?? (I can’t think of any other reason I was being drug along for Hardmode Dungeons in Gw1… I sure didn’t sign up for them). If I can do it, I have no clue then why these self-appointed Achievers can’t.

@Luthan
Oh that’s pretty much what I do and while I do certainly believe what I’ve said. I mostly felt a need to chime in on what had been a very one sided conversation.

But here, let me summarize why I’m still talking for you:

LunaticChaos.7138:

Look, we disagree alright, but don’t devalue the point of us who disagree with this practice here, our opinion is just as valid as yours.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’m right you’re wrong, be quiet and sit down.

Of course paraphrased quite heavily.

@akamon
See the above as well

A player who wins an easy race still has earned their title. Their title was easier to get true, but they still earned it. There is only so much design can handle in this sort of situation. A player who is given the title has not earned it and devalues the title by having it until they have earned it. And most will not earn it as they are only there for the achievement.

And you know what? If there was a separate achievement, one that required you to say win 100 races, and it had a title as well. I can guarantee that we wouldn’t complain, because we know anybody who wins a 100 races got most of those legit as no one is that altruistic to take a dive hundreds of times. Least of all multiple people. We wouldn’t care how many people walked around with that title either, we would have all earned it the hard way.

And no we aren’t trying to impose our beliefs on anybody. We’re speaking up because we’re being told we’re wrong and selfish and have no right being members of the community. I’m asking that my opinion and point be acknowledged equally as valid, if less important to you than your own opinion on the matter. I at least am willing to acknowledge the point of the other side, but not if they completely devalue my opinion on the matter in response.

LunaticChaos.7138:

What I would call that behavior is “Patronizing”
-"to adopt an air of condescension toward : treat haughtily or coolly "
And to make this simpler “Condescension”
-"voluntary descent from one’s rank or dignity in relations with an inferior "

This behavior is patronizing, what everybody who stands at the finish line is saying is “Hey guys behind us, we’re better than you, but here’s a free win for you anyway.”
Sure it’s “Nice” but its disrespectful at the same time. It may not be the intention to be disrespectful, but that’s what you’re telling people when you do that.

There’s nothing inherent in the action (or inaction) of letting someone pass you that requires or communicates a belief that being in front makes you ‘better than’. That may – or may not – be their motivation, but unless they communicate that in a much clearer way, it’s only speculation on anyone else’s part and would be silly to take offensively.

I’m sure there do exist some people with a need to feel like the person ahead is so threatened by them that they’d take any chance they can to (officially) beat them at something; I’m sure some would prefer everybody fake that rather than openly not care about their position at the finish line, but ultimately whatever inadequacy they feel upon realizing they’re taking this more seriously than someone they’re not beating is coming from them, not a person who was probably just trying to free someone of the rush to get their achievement while it’s still there.

LunaticChaos.7138:

Snatching a victory from someone who has been winning and getting your achievement for it is far more satisfying than having someone “Let you win.”

Then don’t cross. I seriously doubt they’d mind.

LunaticChaos.7138:

Sounds to me you completely did not read my post. I said:

-The difficulty in attaining the achievement is what matters, the number of people who have it is irrelevant. The points are also completely irrelevant for that matter, which seems to be your measurement of worth.
-I value two achievements that lots of people have far more than Sanctum Sprint, one of which was very possible to get as it was something you did at your own pace with plenty of guides on how to do it with about a month to do it in.
-By trivializing the achievement through forfeiting your right to win, you devalue its worth making it as trivial and unnoteworthy as finishing Urmaug’s Secret in LA, something that is easy and takes 45 second to do. The more people like you who do this devalues it ever faster.

If everybody playing the game now who tries legitimately earned this achievement without anyone taking a dive? Great, perfect, no complaints, it was just as difficult as it was designed to be for everyone and everyone earned it. We all get to wear the title with pride.

No. I understand you just fine. You are attributing how many people have an achievement as giving it value. All the value an achievement inherently has comes from having it. Nothing else. It does not matter how you got it or how many people also have it. If that matters to you, you are attributing that to the achievement. It is not inherent in the achievement itself.

I’m not affecting anyone other than players like you that need less people to have it so you can feel good about yourself. And that is something I cannot feel bad about.

LunaticChaos.7138:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’m right you’re wrong, be quiet and sit down.

Of course paraphrased quite heavily.

I said nothing of the sort and that is just plain insulting. Lovely little ad hominem attack there. Now that you have proven that you cannot hold a decent conversation with anyone I think we can all learn that any further discussion with you is pointless.

It’s kinda like a professional athlete showing up to a friendly pick-up match, beating the pants off everyone, and then getting upset when everyone leaves.

Lets look at reality here. As much as we would like to believe that everyone playing Guild Wars 2 is is equal, the truth is we aren’t. People on the other end of the connection are dealing with all sorts of variables that make playing competitively much more difficult.

Lag, disabilities, computer speed, skill, time, desire, and even age are just a few of the factors that determine a players ability to compete in PvP type games. Guild Wars 2 doesn’t group people based on any factors, so its quite common for highly skilled players to be paired up with varying degrees of other players.

This is why taking PvP games such as this seriously, to the point of denying others of a win, is selfish and short sighted.

I understand the OP’s desire for a competitive and fair game, and in a perfect world ANet would design these games in a way that allowed fair matching, but until that happens, constantly winning despite having the achievement is not being gracious or considerate.

So, to the OP. Perhaps try to empathize with what situations other players may be facing, and consider what might be different for them if you weren’t in the race. Would that player with a bit of lag, older PC, or physical disability be able to win on their own?

SynfulChaot.3169:

You are attributing how many people have an achievement as giving it value.

Looks to me more like they assign it value based on how others (whether or not they have it) perceive the difficulty you must have gone through to get it. At least, since they say they don’t care how many people have it, but they think it loses some sort of value because it was easy for someone else to get, that seems to be what they’re getting at.

LunaticChaos.7138:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I think that such a view is selfish and I will not stop thinking that it is. Your opinion maybe valid to you. That I will admit. But I will not say that I feel it is valid.

Ahh that explains it, only two levels of quotes work.

Congrats. You got it right that time. ^.^

LameFox.6349:

SynfulChaot.3169:

You are attributing how many people have an achievement as giving it value.

Looks to me more like they assign it value based on how others (whether or not they have it) perceive the difficulty you must have gone through to get it. At least, since they say they don’t care how many people have it, but they think it loses some sort of value because it was easy for someone else to get, that seems to be what they’re getting at.

That should not matter. How someone else obtained anything should have no bearing on how you obtained it.

They up’d the rewards for winners, so at least they recognize this is a problem.

LameFox.6349:

SynfulChaot.3169:

You are attributing how many people have an achievement as giving it value.

Looks to me more like they assign it value based on how others (whether or not they have it) perceive the difficulty you must have gone through to get it. At least, since they say they don’t care how many people have it, but they think it loses some sort of value because it was easy for someone else to get, that seems to be what they’re getting at.

Pretty much this.

Because it is most certainly a matter of pride yes. If something that we should be able to take pride in having gotten is made trivial it loses value to us significantly.

A Completionist might value the shiny number, but an Achiever values the journey it took to get the number. If that journey is trivialized it makes the latter’s experience having been a waste of their time and effort. If a Completionist gets the achievement, good for them, the Achiever wants them to have earned it though.

Celeras.4980:

They up’d the rewards for winners, so at least they recognize this is a problem.

Yup. About 1-2 silver, 300 karma, and 3 quartz. Not enough to entice me not to help others. They’ll need to try harder. ^.^

LunaticChaos.7138:

LameFox.6349:

Looks to me more like they assign it value based on how others (whether or not they have it) perceive the difficulty you must have gone through to get it. At least, since they say they don’t care how many people have it, but they think it loses some sort of value because it was easy for someone else to get, that seems to be what they’re getting at.

Pretty much this.

Because it is most certainly a matter of pride yes. If something that we should be able to take pride in having gotten is made trivial it loses value to us significantly.

A Completionist might value the shiny number, but an Achiever values the journey it took to get the number. If that journey is trivialized it makes the latter’s experience having been a waste of their time and effort. If a Completionist gets the achievement, good for them, the Achiever wants them to have earned it though.

Some are both. I know I am. And anyone who does not want to take the offered win can choose to pass on it.

@Lunatic – thanks for that. okay, so the thing is, at least from my perspective, i don’t disagree with what you guys hold value or believe in, ie i can see where you’re coming from and i wouldn’t discredit that. apologies for assuming you wanted to impose your views on others. i do not find you or OP selfish or wrong for thinking that and holding your actual achievements at such a level that perhaps many others don’t. however, what OP was asking was for people to stop doing that, which is what i was getting at more perhaps. which is also where i got the idea of “ideal imposing”.

i am a competitive player myself, i enjoy achievements as well so i will work hard to try to these if the game’s latency allows me to. if someone in front me stops and lets me pass them, would i take it? i don’t know yet. i haven’t decided. but i would love to be able to get all these achievements on my own. if i were to take that free achievement, i probably would never sport the title, i guess, for the very reasons you’ve stated. but i do want the achievement point as well because i am completionist at that.

so from my perspective, there are a few things going on – completionist, achievements and titles, as well as playing for the sheer fun of the game. why i was voicing my opinion i guess was merely because i felt certain people’s opinions weren’t being taken into account. i don’t think there is an absolute right or wrong here. bottomline – let people play the game they want to. and more importantly, don’t let that affect how you enjoy the game and hold your titles and achievements.

SynfulChaot.3169:

That should not matter. How someone else obtained anything should have no bearing on how you obtained it.

It doesn’t affect how you obtained it, but if the value it has to you is that it changes how other people perceive you, you generally will rely on them assuming it must have been hard to get, because you really can’t stop everyone who ever sees your title and tell them the story. They’d probably flee, for a start, and there’s a lot of them as well.

Personally I look at a title as little other than a bit of decoration, and I think people overestimate how much others care about hard achievements, especially when it can be so vastly easier completely by the luck that the server is low pop at the time and you’re close to it. Mostly the former I’m starting to think, because my latency isn’t going anywhere, yet with less people online the skills are more likely to work better, and sometimes even perfectly.

I still don’t have a first, the highest I can achieve is third. Being in NZ the latency is the killer, skills are not automatic therefore “mistakes” happen. Since ANET has brought in rewards for AP’s, I can see why this is happening. AP’s are now important to many whereas before, many didn’t care.

In saying that, if people want to let others win, that’s fine. I don’t think we can dictate how they want to play if it doesn’t disadvantage or impeed others.

I agree a little bit on your post .. I still feel like there isnt a real differents between 1st and second place but hey at least some coins and a bit karma , btut in generll its basicly nothing .. The onyl thing theay could do is to give a little bit more and add a titel where you earn points based on your finish result like the gamer titel in gw1

Skipping pages of “uh huh” and “uh huh” to point out that there are no PvP rewards for this activity. It’s more of a joshing competitive Jumping Puzzle than it is PvP.

If they wanted “true competition”, then they would have added ranking, mixing of matches to keep it competitive, and they wouldn’t allow you to join a race with less time left than it’s possible to finish.

Hello,

As this thread has derailed with character assassination, personal attacks, and inflammatory comments, it will now be closed.

Please remember that if you feel someone has breach our Rules of Conduct or our User Agreement, you need to report this to our customer support team.

Thank you.