Guild Wars 2

Hi Guys,

just had a wild thought about how you could maybe regulate profits on the TP and link them more towards other content played.

Frequently we see new topics popping up from people who complain about the tp and the profits being made by hardcore flippers/traders.

Many people think that it should be limited and be more in line with rewards from other gameplay.

I am one of those people that make lots of profit on the tp but that doesnt mean that i want to keep the status quo and i had this idea:

The main reason why i make so much profit is because i buy mostly everything on buy order.

So in order to limit my profits Anet would have to limit the amount of buy orders i can purchase stuff with.

So why not tax buy orders with an account bound currency?
Karma is the obvious choice because with gold and exp it is the most common currency and reward in game.

So basically for every buy order from me that gets filled, i have to pay a karma tax before i can pick it up.

Just to play with some numbers:

LEts start with a ratio of 20c/1 karma

This means, if i want to buy items on buy orders worth 1000g, i will be taxed 500.000k karma, which will be paid AFTER someone filled my buy order. If i dont have enough karma, the item will remain in my pickup tab until i can pay.

This is by no means a solution to wealth inequality because people who are good at the game in general as well as on the tp will still make 10 times more profit than the average player earns rewards.

But it would at least require traders to spend more time in game doing regular gameplay.

I didnt think it too far yet, would rather hear some feedback first.

A first negative thought about it would be that it would propably lead to a higher spread in general between buy orders and sell listings. But that would also benefit people that know how to make quick karma AND know their way around the tp because they basically have a higher ratio of karma spent per profit.

Well, lets discuss….

Edit:

Alot of feedback has been given and concerns raised. My original suggestion has changed quite a bit, so i will continue to edit my OP and point towards some new posts that summarize the inital proposal and changes being made.

The first mayor change is using a new currency for the karma tax, White Karma.
For more details on that, check this post:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Add-Karma-tax-to-buy-orders/page/2#post4173927

In this post you can see my Proposal in a CDI format:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Add-Karma-tax-to-buy-orders/page/3#post4174722

No. I need my karma for legendaries/ascended crafting.

RainbowSyrup.4130:

No. I need my karma for legendaries/ascended crafting.

I agree that this would be another massive karma sink, so Anet would have to open the faucets a bit to add more supply.

If i had the data, i would look at the following:

1. Amount of total karma earned per day on average by the whole player base
2. Amount of total karma spent per day on average ^^
3. Total value of buy orders filled per day on average

Lets assume 10 karma are earned per day and 6 karma get spent per day.
And every day, buy orders for 100 copper get filled on the tp.

So to keep it balanced, we need a sink for 4 karma per day.
That would result in a karma tax rate of 4%.

So i guess the formula would be:
A= Amount of total karma earned per day on average by the whole player base
B= Amount of total karma spent per day on average ^^
C= Total value of buy orders filled per day on average in copper

Karma TAX = (A-B)/(C*100)

I obviously have no idea what that ratio would be and there is a good chance that it is rediculously low and you only need 4000 karma to buy 1000g worth of buy orders.
That would mean we would have to raise the karma tax to a reasonable amount.

In our equation it would mean that we now have 1 variable, which is A, the karma output needs to be adjusted accordingly.

So you get more karma… and there is a bigger karma sink. What does this actually do in the end? Nothing changed it seems. I don’t like this idea at all though.

Would the karma tax be on top of the existing gold tax? Or a replacement?

Zaxares.5419:

Would the karma tax be on top of the existing gold tax? Or a replacement?

There’s no tax on a buy order, so it would just be its own thing.

Fermi.2409:

Zaxares.5419:

Would the karma tax be on top of the existing gold tax? Or a replacement?

There’s no tax on a buy order, so it would just be its own thing.

Exactly. Also note, that if you buy directly, you dnt have to pay karma tax, only buy orders. Selling, no matter if directly or through listings, also wont get karma taxed.

Charming Rogue.8071:

So you get more karma… and there is a bigger karma sink. What does this actually do in the end? Nothing changed it seems. I don’t like this idea at all though.

For the average player it wouldnt be a bad change because they would generate more karma than they will need. Due to the boosted karma income the will have more than enough karma to obtain the stuff they got with karma before. They dont buy much on buy order, so the karma tac sink wont be visible at all to them.

Its main goal is to slow down the pace that people, who spend most of their time trading for profit, generate gold wealth.
During some months, i played the tp for 90% of my gametime and only done a daily once in a while. I made and average of 200g per day by getting buy orders worth more than 1000g filled.
If i had to pay karma tax on those buy orders, i would have to spend maybe 10 hours per day extra to farm it through regular gameplay. So i would propably adjust my playstyle, play half as much on the tp, only spend 500g on buy orders, make only 100g a day and spend one hour per day earning karma, playing other content than the tp.

This would hit traders with the highest value of trade volume hit the hardest, those that balance their playstyles between the TP and karma content nothing at all and those that mostly never play the tp a way to earn higher profits, if they start.

If those that usually made the most profits on the tp are regulated by karma gain, their profits will be up for grabs for people with leftover karma. If an item doesnt get flipped or speculated on, its profit margin will rise.

With flippers and speculators competing against each other the profit margins arent that high, so they burn through their karma at a faster pace, meaning for million karma spent on tax, they only make a profit of 15%.
Once they dont have any karma anymore, profit margins get higher (due to the lack of trading). That would mean that the player, who obtained lots of karma can now step in and only has to spend 800k karma (lower buy orders) and makes 35% profit (bigger price spread).

I always wonder how TP flipping can be limited without breaking the current game. The suggestion does just that. Quite brilliant.

That being said, you need the GW2 game designer(and general players) to accept that TP flipping should be limited by some cap.

laokoko.7403:

I always wonder how TP flipping can be limited without breaking the current game. The suggestion does just that. Quite brilliant.

That being said, you need the GW2 game designer(and general players) to accept that TP flipping should be limited by some cap.

Thanks.

I also like the mechanic so far, even though it will propably negatively affect my profits.
But as with any change they do to the game, some people like them and some get shafted. As long as the general player base has a better and more balanced game experience, im all for it.

This is pretty well thought out and a very good way to push players into some regular gameplay.

They could possibly restore some karma from doing dungeon paths as part of the needed karma fountain to make this work. Probably not the amount it used to be, even 5-10% would be enough.

That does sound good, if the fee fits. It should be rather low for an item each but stack additionally of the quantity of items you want to buy. So to say like 10 karma for each item + 20 karma * quantity of items you want to buy. The numbers aren’t final, it should only encourage smaller listing than large ones.

I would not be against this were it to be implemented.

edit
I’ve kept up with the discussion that followed this posting of my opinion on this proposed change (great points made, other opinions shared).

In light of all that has followed up to this moment, my opinion remains that I would not be against this were it to be implemented.

I think this is a terrible idea.

That poor guy who wants a precursor can’t post a buy order because he spent his karma on obsidian shards? He has to pay more?

PvP players will get super shafted because they have no money and no karma. They have to buy from the lowest seller?

This hurts everyone badly and has no place in a game like this. Essentially nothing will be bought on sell orders. I’d run out of karma in under 4 days and then I have to spend 10 hours to post orders that will last 30 min??? I’m honestly suprised you posted this because I thought you would understand how bad of an effect this would have on the game.

That poor guy who wants a precursor can’t post a buy order because he spent his karma on obsidian shards? He has to pay more?

Solved with the proposed karma boost/fountain.

PvP players will get super shafted because they have no money and no karma. They have to buy from the lowest seller?

Gold is not a new problem, nor is it a problem as PvP rewards gold already. Karma can be added to match participation as well.

Wanze.8410:

Fermi.2409:

Zaxares.5419:

Would the karma tax be on top of the existing gold tax? Or a replacement?

There’s no tax on a buy order, so it would just be its own thing.

Exactly. Also note, that if you buy directly, you dnt have to pay karma tax, only buy orders. Selling, no matter if directly or through listings, also wont get karma taxed.

Ahhh, I got ya. Well then, provided if the karma faucets got turned up, I would not be against this, no. That said, it’d be kind of hard to come up with a good lore explanation for why we need to spend karma to use the TP.

This is really interesting. If there was something like this on the trading puts that forced people away from it to play out in the world, it might resolve a lot of the current complaints about how gold is earned in this game.

And I personally wouldn’t mind if they loosened the karma faucets.

I fully support this, because I have millions of Karma that I can’t use!

Ryan.9387:

I think this is a terrible idea.

That poor guy who wants a precursor can’t post a buy order because he spent his karma on obsidian shards? He has to pay more?

PvP players will get super shafted because they have no money and no karma. They have to buy from the lowest seller?

This hurts everyone badly and has no place in a game like this. Essentially nothing will be bought on sell orders. I’d run out of karma in under 4 days and then I have to spend 10 hours to post orders that will last 30 min??? I’m honestly suprised you posted this because I thought you would understand how bad of an effect this would have on the game.

It wont affect the regular player negatively because he will get a boost in karma rewards and that boost is higher than its daily usage.

Let me try to explain.

Lets assume the total value of daily buy orders is 1 million gold and there are 1 million players. Those who get alot of buy orders filled (traders) purchase maybe up to a daily value between 10-50g while the average player only posts buy orders between a daily value of 10-50s.

I already mentioned that the extra karma sink needs to be balanced by a higher karma reward output for playing regular content. in my example, the average player gets 1g worth of buy orders filled, so the karma output will be adjusted to a degree that the median player gets enough additional karma to cover 1g worth of filled buy orders.

But those players that dont use the tp that often, they only spend maybe 10% of the additional karma they get now without adjusting their playstyle for buy orders. So at the end of the day, they accumulate karma faster and are free to choose to spend it on higher gold profits on the tp or for whatever they were spending it on before (legendaries, karma armor, etc.)

Your concern towards PvP players is valid. They would need to introduce karma rewards for it.

I also think you misunderstood some things. This karma tax will only be applied retroactively to fulfilled buy orders because placing buy orders is responisble for a great deal of profits on the tp. No karma tax, if you buy something directly or sell.

To make it simple, this change would basically only hurt those that spend more time placing buy orders and getting them filled than actually playing the game and earning karma.

Zaxares.5419:

Wanze.8410:

Fermi.2409:

Zaxares.5419:

Would the karma tax be on top of the existing gold tax? Or a replacement?

There’s no tax on a buy order, so it would just be its own thing.

Exactly. Also note, that if you buy directly, you dnt have to pay karma tax, only buy orders. Selling, no matter if directly or through listings, also wont get karma taxed.

Ahhh, I got ya. Well then, provided if the karma faucets got turned up, I would not be against this, no. That said, it’d be kind of hard to come up with a good lore explanation for why we need to spend karma to use the TP.

About the Lore (i dont like making real life comparisons but in this case i have to):

Many countries only grant a living or working visa, if you can state how the country benefits from you living or working there.

So if you want to start a business in Tyria and make some profit, you have to earn karma through good deeds to benefit the country and its inhabitants.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I fully support this, because I have millions of Karma that I can’t use!

I think this will be another positive side effect from it. Karma is in need of a rebalance it think. Older players need a new sink for their karma and newer players get a boost as well.

But it will undoubtely require alot of balance and implementation work and i am unsure, if its worth the effort or not.

It would definately add more (gold) value to karma because it gives us a more direct way to turn karma into gold. I´m not sure, if that is desired by Anet.

but..but…but… i need my karma for linen…..

actually a pretty good idea to slow some people down even though I dont necessarily think it is needed. I am still trying to figure out how someone like you Wanze and your massive wealth affects someone like me with a moderate amount of gold. I dont seem to get that.

Jonathan Swift’s A Modest Proposal comes to mind. However, it would be interesting if this happened, as many of the more casual flippers would be pushed out, leaving the more serious market players (well, less casual). My biggest concern one of my biggest concerns is that without flippers there would be a larger price discrepancy between items, with these margins leading to
1) players with karma that have never played with the market being more tempted to, since it would be easier and
2) current flippers with massive stockpiles of karma using this to make a significant burst in their profits. They would, of course, run out eventually, but this assumes they don’t play much beyond flipping, while the karma piles suggest that they at least used to play a lot.

eithinan.9841:

but..but…but… i need my karma for linen…..

actually a pretty good idea to slow some people down even though I dont necessarily think it is needed. I am still trying to figure out how someone like you Wanze and your massive wealth affects someone like me with a moderate amount of gold. I dont seem to get that.

My wealth doesnt affect you. But that is beside point.
What my suggestion would definately do is push players, who concentrate on a single activity in game (trading) to do other content. This is something Anet has done several times and i think its a good goal.

Over the last 22 months of playing GW2 Anet pushed my to do content that i usually wouldnt touch by balancing reward structures for certain activities.
I was furious like every other noob pve player when i found out that i need map completion in wvw for my legendary because i never played pvp in another game before. Now i spend even more time in wvw than in pve or on the tp, which would never have happened, if Anet didnt push me into it.

As someone who would be negatively impacted by this solution, and who is not impacted at all by the perceived problem that the OP fails to demonstrate is a real problem, I am vehemently opposed. I am not now, not have I ever been a TP flipper. On the other hand I do buy materials on the TP from time to time. Buy orders allow me to get them at a lower cost. I fail to see how adding a karma cost to my sell order would benefit me. I can see how it would hinder me, however.

The OP offers a solution to a perceived problem without first proving that the problem in fact is a real problem. That’s strike one. The proposed solution makes worse a problem that already exists. That’s strike two. The idea targets a specific demographic that is doing nothing to harm me (or anyone else that I can see). That’s strike three.

Wow, cool idea, +1 from me.
I don’t know how hugely will this impact the game, but just after reading it, it already sounds absolutely amazing. I really hope it gets implemented in some way.

IndigoSundown.5419:

As someone who would be negatively impacted by this solution, and who is not impacted at all by the perceived problem that the OP fails to demonstrate is a real problem, I am vehemently opposed. I am not now, not have I ever been a TP flipper. On the other hand I do buy materials on the TP from time to time. Buy orders allow me to get them at a lower cost. I fail to see how adding a karma cost to my sell order would benefit me. I can see how it would hinder me, however.

The OP offers a solution to a perceived problem without first proving that the problem in fact is a real problem. That’s strike one. The proposed solution makes worse a problem that already exists. That’s strike two. The idea targets a specific demographic that is doing nothing to harm me (or anyone else that I can see). That’s strike three.

In general, as the OP, i agree with your point of view and i dont neccessarily want this suggestion to be implemented. As a hardcore trader, i would definately get the pointy end of the needle directed towards me.
I merely put this suggestion up for discussion to get feedback from all sides.

Strike 1: I definately agree that players who make lots of profit dont have any negative impact on the gamplay of poorer players. However, i think that Anet has the right to push players, who excessively only play one part of the game, to try other content by giving them incentives via rewards. They have done this in the past.

Strike 2: I disagree. i dont see how this negatively impacts the mayority of the player base. I we assume that the median player and mayority of the player base gets most of their rewards through regular gameplay and not profits from the tp, they will bascially get a boost to their karma generation and it will be easier for them to turn it into gold, if they wish to do so. If you disagree, please elaborate a bit on the negative impact.

Strike 3: Every balance change gets some demographic group shafted, so that cant be an argument, as long as the positive effects outshine the negative ones.
Rune of Strength got nerfed because it was deemed OP. Those that purchased the runes since the balance patch got shafted, those that dont use those runes, benefit from it.

Wanze.8410:

Strike 1: I definately agree that players who make lots of profit dont have any negative impact on the gamplay of poorer players. However, i think that Anet has the right to push players, who excessively only play one part of the game, to try other content by giving them incentives via rewards. They have done this in the past.

While I agree that ANet has done so, I’m not sure that pushing players who want to place buy orders (and not do other content) to run the EotM karma train (which I believe is the best for karma/time) is an improvement. I am not a fan of ANet’s efforts to entice people into other game modes, and would prefer less ANet heavy-handedness rather than more. While it might be ANet’s right to do what they want with their game, too much “channeling” into predefined paths limits the experience of GW2 as a virtual world — which could backfire badly.

Strike 2: I disagree. i dont see how this negatively impacts the mayority of the player base. I we assume that the median player and mayority of the player base gets most of their rewards through regular gameplay and not profits from the tp, they will bascially get a boost to their karma generation and it will be easier for them to turn it into gold, if they wish to do so. If you disagree, please elaborate a bit on the negative impact.

That’s presuming there would be a boost to karma generation, which I believe is questionable. I think more likely would be the insertion of the karma sink with no increase in ability to gain karma, which is much more in line with the way that ANet views rewards — at least from where I’m sitting. As to the negative impact… take my playstyle. I’m an explorer. I run around, collect mats, kill stuff, do random events in random zones — and for the most part avoid the herd content where most of the rewards are concentrated. I do craft some things for alts, and will buy mats if I don’t have them. Karma accrues much more slowly for me than it does for karma trainers, WvWers, meta-event chainers, etc. Putting a karma sink in the TP would negatively impact me — though it might not impact the majority. I can’t speak for the majority, though I doubt my playstyle is unique.

Strike 3: Every balance change gets some demographic group shafted, so that cant be an argument, as long as the positive effects outshine the negative ones.
Rune of Strength got nerfed because it was deemed OP. Those that purchased the runes since the balance patch got shafted, those that dont use those runes, benefit from it.

Balance changes are one thing. Targeting flippers because others are jealous that “their” preferred activity does less well (in their perception) is quite another. Which demographic, exactly, benefits by putting a karma price on a buy order? The demographic that isn’t happy that someone else is making gold via flipping? I don’t believe that demographic should be pandered to.

For responses, see italics.

IndigoSundown.5419:

For responses, see italics.

Fair enough, you make valid points that should be considered.

For each buying/selling option there are multiple parties. For buying with a buy order, there are traders and consumers. This is an interesting idea while focusing on the traders, but unfortunately it lumps the buy order consumers with them.

Also without a rebalancing of karma across the game as a whole, karma trains would become ever more prevalent, which have direct negative impact on other playstyles which are either currently balanced or underbalanced.

Aside from those two, I kinda like the idea as it gets more players playing, which only increases the overall health of a mmo.

if they removed the 250 limit on buy orders and had a increasing cost up to a reasonable limit, it would be a decent idea, otherwise there would be some issues with large/many legitimate orders like leveling crafting or siege crafting.

Also k-trains are terrible and shouldn’t be further encouraged.

So you got rich and now you want to limit the profits for others, making the money you earned much more valuable. How about no.

This is a pretty brilliant idea, although what about the people that only play the TP in game? They would not have the needed karma in order to make the buy orders, I would almost think there would need to be a vendor that you could convert gold to karma. This way the people that only 100% play the TP would have a way to get the needed karma. But then this gets into would everyone start using this vendor instead of out playing other parts of the game.

STOP

Don’t give them any ideas pls ;(

I like to hoard my karma…

NO MORE KARMA SINKS.
You have a lot of Karma? Great. We don’t so, no.

While it certainly is an entertaining idea, I think the issue that most players have with the TP and a small elite getting rich off of it is better resolved through education (like John Smith recently posted) and like I have suggested in another post here.

Throwing Karma into the mix would end up confusing and most likely crashing or near-crashing the economy as it is now. I think there is however need for some measure of intervention in the way tax is being levied. A suggestion of mine is to allow for re-adjusting prices for a smaller fee (and a cooldown) thus encouraging more liquidity in the market and freeing up a lot of stuck sell orders. This would of course create a shock as players would start to see revenues and supply increase, but I think with luxury goods (which is the product category which would see the largest increase of supply) a positive supply shock would push down prices enough to create incentive for poorer players to save up money. As of now 2000 G for a certain item is not available to many players (and the reason many luxury goods trade at such high prices is the lack of liquidity (not because of low supply, but a tax trap).

Secondly giving players a few more “layman” metrics by which to price items would educate them as to the equilibrium value of many items they sell on the tradepost, and as such would encourage them to put out “sell orders” instead of filling buy orders. I believe none but John Smith has full data on the average sell/buy fillings a player does but I think many people actually do fill sell orders but as mentioned above a lot of sell orders are stuck in the above market oblivion.

People are rather oblivious to math and economics in general. Should we believe research done on player habits, most people play GW2 (and other games) to escape the reality that is exactly numbers and hard thinking. While it is only anecdotal, I cannot help to notice that as it stands now some people are even selling below vendor value due to the inability to deduct the listing fee from their sell order and believes the “Projected Profit” value is indeed what they receive upon selling their goods. You cannot call them stupid of that reason, however. That indicator is indeed confusing and not in any way helpful to players interested in selling at the market while waiting for the commander in wvw to rally and continue rolling.

The TP has had only minor improvements over its lifetime, and I think it high time John Smith and the TP team take some time to develop better metrics and interface for players to interact with. Making the TP more welcome and more educating to players who lack the time and interest is key to improving the way players view of the TP and its affiliates.

Essence Snow.3194:

For each buying/selling option there are multiple parties. For buying with a buy order, there are traders and consumers. This is an interesting idea while focusing on the traders, but unfortunately it lumps the buy order consumers with them.

Also without a rebalancing of karma across the game as a whole, karma trains would become ever more prevalent, which have direct negative impact on other playstyles which are either currently balanced or underbalanced.

Aside from those two, I kinda like the idea as it gets more players playing, which only increases the overall health of a mmo.

I already admitted in my second post that a rebalancing of karma generation needs to happen, if a karma tax is being implemented, there is no way around it.
But is that a bad thing?
Some people have millions of karma and dont know what to do with it (because they obtained the mayority of it before the big karma nerf) and I have the impression that never players struggle to get karma.
I think if they buffed karma gain the way suggested in my 2nd or third post, i think it will only “hurt” the hardcore tp traders that dont play other content at any significant rate.
Players that spend most of their time playing regular content (disregarding PvP for now as I already acknowledged that pvp needs to reward karma as well) but also used to make a little profit on the side via flipping, would ideally not notice the buffed karma gain from content as it is used up for the tax. His karma gain to spend on other stuff except the tax will ideally be the same compared to before the change.
The same goes for the conscious consumer that only buys his stuff via buy orders. He even might experience earning slightly more karma than before the change because he cant spend more karma on tax than he earns gold via regular gameplay because he doesnt use the trading post to make any profit.
The casual player (or hardcore farmer) that nearly never puts in buy orders for anything (and therefore makes next to no profit on the tp) will eperience the biggest karma gain from the buff. Lucky him, the game compensates him now with other rewards to balance out the big gold profits the big time traders make on the tp.
He will get faster to the point to satisfy his needs for stuff bought directly with karma and as soon as he earns excess karma, it will give him an incentive to use it making profit on the tp.
I think as a game designer your goal should be to have every player try out all content that you develop. So players who never used to flip should also be pushed a little towards the tp to earn a buck or two.

I think we are getting a little too hung up on how karma needs to be rebalanced in order for this to work at this early point of the discussion.
I think i will edit my OP to give a clearer outline on how i think it might work best so the mayority of the player base benefits from it.

I share your concern about karma trains, though. The rebalancing of karma should adress them.
2 possible fixes that i could think of right now are:
Introducing DR for karma earned from the same events and introducing daily karma buffs for completing certain content.
Monday: Double karma gain from PvP
Tuesday: Double karma gain from Dungeons
Wednesday: ^^ from WvW
Thursday: Heart Events
Friday: World Events
Saturday: Fractals

This would also give another incentive for players to play different content.

dodgycookies.4562:

if they removed the 250 limit on buy orders and had a increasing cost up to a reasonable limit, it would be a decent idea, otherwise there would be some issues with large/many legitimate orders like leveling crafting or siege crafting.

Also k-trains are terrible and shouldn’t be further encouraged.

What 250 limit?

kosmo.2437:

So you got rich and now you want to limit the profits for others, making the money you earned much more valuable. How about no.

Yes, i propably am what many people consider rich in game. If I play the TP these days, i dont do it in order to gain more gold because i accumulated enough to never feel a lack of it again.
I actually play the TP for FUN! Because it is without the shadow of a doubt the most balanced form of PvP in the game. The rewards i get also scale with my skill on the battlefield, something everybody else would love to see for their favourite game content.

Dont get me wrong, i still LOVE to make huge profits on the TP but not because i need more gold, its just a good measure of success.

Romo.3709:

NO MORE KARMA SINKS.
You have a lot of Karma? Great. We don’t so, no.

You clearly didnt read my posts. You also dont know how much karma i have.

If you just made this post in order to announce your extraordinary graphic design skills, that we all are fortunate enough to witness in your attached graphic, to the player base, there is great news for you:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guildwars2-is-on-tumblr/

(1) There’s no need to create solutions where no problems exist. Well, political problems, and that may be limited to an extreme minority of forum whiners.

(2) Why should we create barriers to entry? Right now one of the great things (in the big picture) is that people can (and do – see increase in buy orders for mid-level weapons lately?) pile into markets and drive sell prices down / buy prices up. All this would do is obstruct the ability of the TP to set a market-clearing price, which would make everyone worse off.

Chobiko.9182:

While it certainly is an entertaining idea, I think the issue that most players have with the TP and a small elite getting rich off of it is better resolved through education (like John Smith recently posted) and like I have suggested in another post here.

Throwing Karma into the mix would end up confusing and most likely crashing or near-crashing the economy as it is now.

~snipped for being off topic~

Thank you for your feedback towards my suggestion. I agree that rich players dont harm the economy or the game experience of other players. More education towards it is certainly a good way to go.

Can you elaborate a bit on why you think adding a karma tax only on filled buy orders would most likely crash the economy?

I think it will most likely slow down total daily trading volume, at least initially because the biggest traders get pushed out of the market first and it will take some time of adjustment until other players pick up their slack.
For now, I am unsure, how a lower trading volume would effect the economy besides this:

Without heavy flippers, the price spread on items will grow larger, offering other players more profit (higher lowest listing) while spending less karma on tax (lower buy orders).

I snipped the rest of your post because it is off topic, I hope you dont take offense in that. I already read your suggestion in the other topic. I can just advise you to open a seperate thread and ask for feedback for your suggestion. You wont get much in the other topic and you wont get much here.

I am quite aware that i am posting alot in this topic, responding to feedback. That might lead to my general idea being dilluted a bit from what iposted in the OP, especially because i get new ideas for tweaks along the way.

I will try to edit my OP later today to give some clearer outlines of what i have in mind, why and how to implement it and list pro´s and con´s.

I am certainly surprised by the amount of positive feedback so far and i am also grateful for any constructive negative feedback because it makes me think more about it. The early mention of PvP not awarding karma, for example, completely slipped my mind.

So keep it coming and thanks again for contributing.
I actually anticipated alot more comments in the line of:
- Dont nerf my karma!
- You just want to implement this because you are already rich/have alot of karma.

While I don’t find this change to be necessary I find it interesting enough to entertain discussion.

Do you think this will have a large enough impact on people who mainly focus on long term investment/speculation? While this works for people who flip large amounts of items on a daily/weekly basis what about people who only place large orders once in a while for long term storage such as skins, LS items, items that will be effect upcoming game changes etc? Or do you feel that these people do not make enough gold to be considered significant?

Also how do you feel about the reduced buy orders leading to reduced competition and prices? Effects may vary based on item but some items may significantly decrease in value without the massive buy orders of flippers and so regular players get less for selling their unwanted items. Or do you think this will, in general, have an insignificant impact on item prices?

Wanze.8410:

I am certainly surprised by the amount of positive feedback so far and i am also grateful for any constructive negative feedback because it makes me think more about it. The early mention of PvP not awarding karma, for example, completely slipped my mind.

So keep it coming and thanks again for contributing.
I actually anticipated alot more comments in the line of:
- Dont nerf my karma!
- You just want to implement this because you are already rich/have alot of karma.

Not to be a butt kisser here but this indicates to me that in this world of trolls you may have earned some measure of respect. You obviously have a solid grasp of economic theory and understand how this in game market works. Most importantly though, you have shared a large amount of your know-how with anyone willing to read and comprehend.

On topic: I dont know what the true end result of a karma cost would be but I know the fastest karma farms would be found by the player community which would help all players.

terrible idea

Buying legendaries would be more cost efficient than making it.

eithinan.9841:

On topic: I dont know what the true end result of a karma cost would be but I know the fastest karma farms would be found by the player community which would help all players.

As karma is already a desirable currency, the fastest karma farms are already known. Also, knowing what these farms are only helps those who are willing to endure the boredom (or who don’t find doing those things boring). Thus, “help all players” is inaccurate. The game already pushes people who want “stuff” into the farm content, while those who prefer to play much more of the game are behind the curve reward-wise.

I don’t mind my play-style being less rewarding than others. I do object to adding yet another reason to farm which will also put me further behind the curve — especially when the pay-off is to appease those who can’t stand seeing flippers prosper. Honestly, I don’t believe the problem needs to be solved, and any attempt to solve it must first prove the problem needs to be solved — providing reasons greater than I’ve seen.

Schizo.1375:

While I don’t find this change to be necessary I find it interesting enough to entertain discussion.

Do you think this will have a large enough impact on people who mainly focus on long term investment/speculation? While this works for people who flip large amounts of items on a daily/weekly basis what about people who only place large orders once in a while for long term storage such as skins, LS items, items that will be effect upcoming game changes etc? Or do you feel that these people do not make enough gold to be considered significant?

Also how do you feel about the reduced buy orders leading to reduced competition and prices? Effects may vary based on item but some items may significantly decrease in value without the massive buy orders of flippers and so regular players get less for selling their unwanted items. Or do you think this will, in general, have an insignificant impact on item prices?

No, i dont think that investors/speculators will be as much affected as hardcore flipper.
If they want to speculate with items that have a huge price spread (which is one of my predicted market reactions if karma tax gets introduced), they are certainly hurting.
Random weaponskin has a highest bid of 35g and lowest listing of 75g. The projected price in 3 months time is 110g/200g. Right now, the speculator has little regulation on how many buy orders he can get filled around 35g. As long as he has the gold, he can get 11 of them before buy orders reach 40g, investing 400g in total, depending on amount of buy orders filled, of course. That is not guaranteed at the status quo but certainly a possibility.
With the karma tax, he has to determine, if the spread of 40g is worth the karma tax, he needs to spend on a filled 35g buy order. That might be 20 minutes of boring karmatraining, 200 minutes, if all buy orders fill.
Someone who speculated that thick leather would come off its vendor value when the bazaar arrives most certainly would have bought up all the leather at 9c instead of putting in buy orders at 8c, so he is not affected much.
Also many speculators (which requires lots of initial investment) usually earn alot of karma anyways because they enjoy regular content and have the time to do so because speculating is way less time/click intensive than flipping.
In terms of speculators profit margins, they are certainly significant enough to be considered.
Unfortunately my suggestion doesnt work with them as efficient as it works with hardcore flippers.
I stated in my OP that my suggestion is by far no remedy to wealth disparity but it might be a step into the right direction.

Your second question is something i have been contemplating myself and i havent made up my mind yet, need to do a bit more research on that.

Iris Ng.9845:

Buying legendaries would be more cost efficient than making it.

Considering the huge amount of labour costs that go into forging a legendary, your statement already is the status quo.