Guild Wars 2

And precursor crafting wouldn’t solve the “problem” for everyone.

Depends on how they implement it, of course, but “solving it for everyone” should be one of their design goals. If they do it right, it will. Making a legendary should always take work, but getting the precursor shouldn’t take more time and effort than any other element of the project. I had everything needed for a legendary other than the Precursor done within months of launch.

It’ll only benefit individuals who are only missing a precursor to craft a legendary, others who acquired a precursor first or haven’t done much at all will face higher t6/lodestones prices balancing out with the cheaper/easier precursor acquisition.

First, most people actively going after a Pre, likely already have most of the other stuff. Second, I discussed T6 pricing earlier, there’s no reason why T6 pricing would necessarilly go up. Yes, more Pres would mean more demand for T6 mats, but I know that, you know that, we can only hope that ANet knows that as well as we do, and knowing that they can increase supply accordingly. This might result in a short term bubble in T6 prices, as some players recognize demand before they realize that supply is keeping up, but I’m sure the TP tycoons will make good profits off that and have no reason to complain. Within days or weeks, if that, the bubble will pop and prices will return to normal levels, IF the devs do bother to match supply to demand. Really T6 mats are way too high as they are, and could stand a supply increase no matter what else ANet does.

Let’s be clear. Anet sets the expectations; they program the game.

ANet sets what we get, ANet has zero control over what we can reasonably expect to get. They have no control over expectations, and can at best influence them by what they tell us and what they’ve done in the past, but expectations are entirely in the players’ hands.

It’s NOT reasonable for every player to own a legendary so when the average dude thinks he should have one, it’s not inline with the way Anet has made the game. It’s NOT the other way around.

There is an achievement for having FOURTEEN Legendaries, how can “every player should have at least one after two years of earnest play” not be considered a reasonable goal? I mean, I’m not saying that they should come in the birthday bundles or anything, they should still take the time and effort people are used to, just minus the effort of earning a TON of gold to buy a Pre with. “getting gold” should be the least component of earning a Legendary, not far and away the most restricting one. The 100g spent on Icy Runes should be the largest gold component of the build.

Ohoni.6057:

There is an achievement for having FOURTEEN Legendaries, how can “every player should have at least one after two years of earnest play” not be considered a reasonable goal?

Let me flip this back on you … why do you think it’s reasonable that every player have a legendary, regardless of the time? I could care less if there is an achievement for having one or 14 legendaries. That doesn’t determine if it’s a reasonable goal or not. It’s a completely unreasonable goal given that some people simply don’t play enough in two years to warrant owning one.

I’d be really interested in seeing the assets and transaction history of one of these regular earnest players who has never been able to acquire a precursor despite their best efforts.

Ensign.2189:

I’d be really interested in seeing the assets and transaction history of one of these regular earnest players who has never been able to acquire a precursor despite their best efforts.

I imagine just as many of us have trouble managing our in-game assets as we do managing our real life portfolio.

Let me flip this back on you … why do you think it’s reasonable that every player have a legendary, regardless of the time? I could care less if there is an achievement for having one or 14 legendaries. That doesn’t determine if it’s a reasonable goal or not. It’s a completely unreasonable goal given that some people simply don’t play enough in two years to warrant owning one.

I said “two years of earnest play” to head off that particular strawman, but apparently it didn’t take. I clearly don’t mean that everyone who logs in for a few hours a month, or who logs in and just chills out in LA or whatever, deserves a pony. I’m only talking about players that actually play the game, on a regular basis, and put in a reasonable amount of effort.

I don’t disagree with the above, but how exactly would you determine a “reasonable amount of effort”? I’m sure that I have enough in-game wealth that, if I liquidated all my assets, I could buy a Legendary outright. I’ve taken part in just about every aspect of the game (bar high-end PvP), but I’ve also sunk a lot of hours into GW2, probably far more than what one might expect from a steady player.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I imagine just as many of us have trouble managing our in-game assets as we do managing our real life portfolio.

I agree. Which is why I’m curious – people out of game tend to blow a lot of money on, well, things that are no assets. There’s a lot less opportunity for that in game. So what gives? I get the compulsion to buy the latest shiny whenever it comes out and how that keeps people from saving anything, but a couple years in shouldn’t they at least be able to see a couple thousand gold worth of skins and other assorted account bound ‘junk’ that they’ve bought? Or does that just get blocked out too as something from the past that they’re totally blind to when looking at the big shiny they can never save up for?

I don’t disagree with the above, but how exactly would you determine a “reasonable amount of effort”? I’m sure that I have enough in-game wealth that, if I liquidated all my assets, I could buy a Legendary outright. I’ve taken part in just about every aspect of the game (bar high-end PvP), but I’ve also sunk a lot of hours into GW2, probably far more than what one might expect from a steady player.

As I hinted at, the Precursor should not be the most expensive element of the build. The whole Legendary process seems to be about checking off boxes of participation. You need to gain karma, you need to do a little WvW, you need ot run some dungeons, etc. There are the Icy Runestones, where you have to spend some gold. That should be the bunk of the gold value in crafting a Legendary. So that would be my target, that a Precursor should cost no more than 100g, or effort equivalent to earning 100g through basic core gameplay. The “effort” in making a legendary should be in getting World Completion, and the other various tasks. Acquiring a Precursor should be almost incidental.

but a couple years in shouldn’t they at least be able to see a couple thousand gold worth of skins and other assorted account bound ‘junk’ that they’ve bought?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

This just goes to show how ruthlessly out of touch the 1%ers are around here.

No, no they aren’t likely to have a couple thousand gold in negotiable assets, especially when you factor out that they’ll need around 1000+ gold left over in currency or T6 mats to complete the legendary, so they can’t just liquidate everything.

Hmm, I’m not sure I agree with the “acquiring a Precursor should be almost incidental” bit. I’d like the Precursor to mean something. It shouldn’t be locked behind RNG, but the player should acquire it by doing something of note in the game, such as completing “Weapon Master” in the appropriate weapon, or defeating a series of powerful foes (similar to the Gauntlet) and then getting to pick a Precursor at the end as their reward. (And of course, if the player simply cannot beat the “gauntlet” for whatever reason, they can always just buy it from the TP. The increased supply should help keep prices reasonable.)

Hmm, I’m not sure I agree with the “acquiring a Precursor should be almost incidental” bit. I’d like the Precursor to mean something. It shouldn’t be locked behind RNG, but the player should acquire it by doing something of note in the game, such as completing “Weapon Master” in the appropriate weapon, or defeating a series of powerful foes (similar to the Gauntlet) and then getting to pick a Precursor at the end as their reward. (And of course, if the player simply cannot beat the “gauntlet” for whatever reason, they can always just buy it from the TP. The increased supply should help keep prices reasonable.)

I don’t think it’s realistic for the Precursor to be incidental at this point, but it shouldn’t take twice as much effort as any of the other elements of the build. I’d be fine with there being various reasonable tasks associated with it. Weapons Master would be a problem, since while it would be easy enough to get it on some weapons, it would make things like Shields a huge hassle to get. If they had that requirement they would at least have to reduce the achievement requirements for dedicated offhand weapons.

Ohoni.6057:

No, no they aren’t likely to have a couple thousand gold in negotiable assets

Not negotiable assets, I presume most of their assets are account bound locked in assets that were purchased at some point along the way and can be evaluated at their current purchase price.

Again, I’d really be curious to see where a typical ‘regular’ player who can’t afford a legendary has locked his money up.

Running around the open world is worth 2-3 gold an hour at a minimum if you’re even bothering to play the game; when I’m just killing time in PvE killing whatever mobs are in front of me, doing events as I find them, hitting all the nodes, etc, not even really trying hard, I’m still pulling in 2-3 gold worth of mats with no rare drops, and do substantially better with even a couple rares or an exotic.

2-3 gold an hour for, say, 10 hours a week (2-3 hours for 4-5 nights a week) over two years is ~2500 gold, at a lazy acquisition rate on a pretty regular, sane gaming schedule. Is this a totally unreasonable assumption?

Because it seems pretty conservative to me, which begs the question of where these long time, dedicated players are blowing their money.

Not negotiable assets, I presume most of their assets are account bound locked in assets that were purchased at some point along the way and can be evaluated at their current purchase price.

Again, I don’t think they’d have such assets that will be or ever were that much gold. If they have account-bound assets then most of those would be things which never had any gold value, such as Fervid Censor or Sunless wings.

Again, I’d really be curious to see where a typical ‘regular’ player who can’t afford a legendary has locked his money up.

John Smith could tell us, but the likely simple fact, which you seem unwilling to believe, is that there are many players out there who never acquired, in any form, the amount of gold needed to make a Legendary, much less the two or three or more that some players have managed. It’s not that they made a ton of money and blew it all on junk, it’s that they never made all that much money in the first place, because they did not play the markets efficiently, did not strike when the iron was hot to sell off their things, did not farm the areas that were most easily farmed, etc. They just played the game and had fun, like saps, and because the game does not reward that with gold, they never made all that much of it.

Running around the open world is worth 2-3 gold an hour at a minimum if you’re even bothering to play the game; when I’m just killing time in PvE killing whatever mobs are in front of me, doing events as I find them, hitting all the nodes, etc, not even really trying hard, I’m still pulling in 2-3 gold worth of mats with no rare drops, and do substantially better with even a couple rares or an exotic.

No. That’s just BS. I mean sure, there are areas of the game where you can make that much, especially if you know the best ways to parlay your drops into cash, but 2-3 gold per hour is very very far from the minimum. I play very frugally, never buying anything that I could do without, and still only had about 400g within my first year. I thought that was a lot until I started hearing about players having thousands.

And keep in mind that this is only while playing on level 80 characters, for players that took months to get there, or that shifted between alts and didn’t spend a lot of their time on the 80s, they would not even be able to do that much.

Ohoni.6057:

As I hinted at, the Precursor should not be the most expensive element of the build. … So that would be my target, that a Precursor should cost no more than 100g, or effort equivalent to earning 100g through basic core gameplay.

There are still several precursors that are nowhere near being the most expensive element, and there are a few that are 100g or below.

How come these are not good enough to people, if they crave for one? Why it nearly always have to be one of the most expensive ones?

Ohoni.6057:

John Smith could tell us, but the likely simple fact, which you seem unwilling to believe, is that there are many players out there who never acquired, in any form, the amount of gold needed to make a Legendary, much less the two or three or more that some players have managed.

Oh, I believe that there are many, many players out there who have never acquired anywhere near the amount of money needed to make a legendary. The vast, vast majority of players/accounts just don’t play that much; either they played at launch and gradually faded away, or they log in once or twice a week on a weekend for a couple hours to play, or just do some living story and go do something else.

I believe there are a bunch of players who have a good number of hours but were never seriously chasing a legendary – they spend nearly all their time in sPvP, or they’re leveling a bunch of alts, or they like chatting in town with their friends. I have no problem believing that those players never could afford a legendary.

What I do not believe are that there are a lot of players who play the game frequently as a serious hobbyist (~10 hours a week), doing activities that you would think are wealth rewarding (like killing mobs, harvesting nodes, and completing events), that have not, over the past couple years, cumulatively acquired enough wealth to buy a precursor and craft a legendary of their choice. Accumulating enough wealth over that time frame does not require any sort of special knowledge or power farming of dungeons or world events or mastery of the TP; killing mobs and mining nodes at a steady clip is more than sufficient.

I think that anyone who claims to be playing frequently as a serious hobbyist yet unable to have made a legendary is either not trying very hard or has a serious saving problem.

I mean sure, there are areas of the game where you can make that much, especially if you know the best ways to parlay your drops into cash

I would have no problem extracting 2-3 gold in an hour from any zone in the game, save perhaps the starter zones, without any specialized knowledge of the maps – pick a waypoint to start at, walk in a direction, kill the mobs along your way, mine the nodes, and do events you come across. Better zones are worth well over 5 gold an hour, and you can push it much higher by jumping between hot spots.

I don’t doubt that people can make far less from that from just playing the game. I just have to question what it is that they are doing that is so unrewarding.

I mean, I just followed a random player around Iron Marches for 20 minutes, killing mobs and hitting platinum nodes and trees, and I pulled in close to 2 gold worth of mats; a whole lot of T4 dust, T4 fine mats sell for close to 5s each, a ton of platinum, some crystal shards – using the great and complicated method of salvaging everything and putting it on the TP. Sure, I probably got a bit lucky on the shard drops, but there’s no way I make less than 1 gold doing that, and this is just following someone leveling around.

I really, really don’t know what you’re doing to not have a basic income of a couple gold an hour.

How can people expect for what are arguably the most expensive and prestigious items in the game (I know, I know, credit card = no prestige, but still) to be just handed to them? Do you really expect to be rewarded with them for running randomly around an area, maybe kill a mob or three, do some events, then port to LA to chat?! Well, you can always get 3 precursor drops, sell and buy the legendary you want, but the chances of that are so small it’s not even worth considering.

And I find the claims that money is hard to come by simply laughable. The game literally throws money at you. Everything you get in the game can be monetized (well, maybe not the t7 mats that drop like crazy, but they introduced that bloodstone-eating plant so there is hope for those as well).

It takes 30 minutes to do CoF1 and SE1+3 and only from this you will get 4g solid hard cash, not counting the drops and the tokens. From SE alone you will be able twice in 3 days to get a piece of armor to break down with a BLK for ectos, dark matter and a very good chance at an insignia worth 2-2.5g. Granted, you can’t do it for CoF since none of its armor combos can drop insignia, but you can keep those tokens for the zerker armor/weps for your characters, or just buy rares/exos with them and salvage for ectos. And this is just for these 2 dungeons, which are the easiest and fastest ones around. The rewards increase significantly if you branch out to other dungeons.

Gather nodes (the relevant ones, not copper or gold or green wood) and sell for proffit.

Farm eotm. Farm karkas. Farm LS (man, the money was awesome from crafting those foods daily and selling them! And it sill is some 3-4g worth of proffit).

Do ascended crafting, but watch to actually make a proffit out of your daily craft because it shifts permanently.

You don’t need to do the above like a madman, just 30 mins-1h of each should get you a nice return. Hell, even PvP is now somewhat rewarding due to dungeon tracks…

Enough with this entitlement and silly complaints already! Gold can be easily obtained in this game if you put your mind to it.

There are still several precursors that are nowhere near being the most expensive element, and there are a few that are 100g or below.

Yes, but the point isn’t to get a Legendary Speargun or whatever just to say you have a legendary, the point is to get the one YOU want, the one that looks cool to YOU and works for YOUR characters. If that one happens to be the Focus or whatever then that’s great luck on your part, but if you want Sunrise or something then the price of other precursors isn’t really any more relevant than the price of high end exotic greatswords. It’s not the one you’re looking for.

How come these are not good enough to people, if they crave for one? Why it nearly always have to be one of the most expensive ones?

Why are the most expensive ones the most expensive ones? It’s because they are the ones that are most desired. A ton more Dawns drop into the world than Rage, because their random chance to drop is identical and yet people actively seek out Dawn, so I’d bet ten times as many enter the game, yet Dawn is worth about twenty times as much, because 1. More players use GSs most of the time than use Spearguns, 2. More players prefer the graphical style of Sunrise, and 3. In a particularly cruel fluke, ANet added the extra achievement of combining Sunrises and Twilights into Eternities, making what would already be the most desirable Legendary into even more desirable.

Again, it’s not about “just getting one” to tick off a box, it’s about having the one that you want to have.

Oh, I believe that there are many, many players out there who have never acquired anywhere near the amount of money needed to make a legendary. The vast, vast majority of players/accounts just don’t play that much; either they played at launch and gradually faded away, or they log in once or twice a week on a weekend for a couple hours to play, or just do some living story and go do something else.

Again, you stick to your falacy. Either A. They play a lot and definitely had the money, but probably blew it, or B. They don’t have the money because they don’t play enough. I insist that while both of those groups do exist in some number, there are also a ton of C. Players who DO play as often and as seriously as you do, but have never accumulated that much gold in any form, because the way that they play, while fully engaged and with just as much effort as you, was not done as efficiently or as informed as the way you apparently play, and was therefore not nearly as rewarding in gold.

Accumulating enough wealth over that time frame does not require any sort of special knowledge or power farming of dungeons or world events or mastery of the TP; killing mobs and mining nodes at a steady clip is more than sufficient.

Nope, it’s not. And that you think that it is just shows me how out of touch with the average player you are.

It takes 30 minutes to do CoF1 and SE1+3 and only from this you will get 4g solid hard cash, not counting the drops and the tokens. From SE alone you will be able twice in 3 days to get a piece of armor to break down with a BLK for ectos, dark matter and a very good chance at an insignia worth 2-2.5g. Granted, you can’t do it for CoF since none of its armor combos can drop insignia, but you can keep those tokens for the zerker armor/weps for your characters, or just buy rares/exos with them and salvage for ectos. And this is just for these 2 dungeons, which are the easiest and fastest ones around. The rewards increase significantly if you branch out to other dungeons.

And where does the game tell you to parlay your tokens into armors, salvage them with a BLK, and sell the results on the TP? Can you understand how this might not occur to every player out there as an efficient way to play the game?

Ohoni.6057:

there are also a ton of C. Players who DO play as often and as seriously as you do, but have never accumulated that much gold in any form, because the way that they play, while fully engaged and with just as much effort as you, was not done as efficiently or as informed as the way you apparently play, and was therefore not nearly as rewarding in gold.

Test 2 – 20 minutes in Brisban Wildlands, that shining beacon of mob density and high value drops. Oh baby let me kill more jungle stalkers and wind riders one at a time, this is so profitable.

Adding it all up – I didn’t bother keeping track of raw gold drops or the value of the grays – gives…2 gold worth of stuff, sold instantly like a baddie to the highest buy order, after TP taxes. Not counting the watchwork sprockets, of course.

So, apparently, group C players have discovered a mode of play that cannot get even close to what a drunken wind rider farmer can do. Seriously, what are they doing? I’m trying to do things that I know to be bad here and still making ‘tons’ of money in comparison to what you’re talking about.

I’d have to be avoiding making money with purpose – running past every mob I can, ignoring mining nodes, going to events and keyboard turning in circles instead of tagging mobs – to be making money at the level you’re talking about.

…you know what, I concede. I admit that I simply cannot comprehend just how terrible at this game a big chunk of the player base really is. I can understand on an abstract level how someone can be that bad, but I just cannot actually visualize what that player’s day to day experience is like.

You’re going to have a hard time convincing me the game is horribly unfair because those players don’t have legendaries, however.

You guys think way to far ahead..
Pre’s needs to have a set price of for example 600g.. So it is fair that everyone pays he same price. If you bought it in for example march 2013 or august 2014. It’s just weird someone payed 600g and I and many others, because I waited with buying it for my own reasons now have to pay 1200g for the same pre!
Dont get me wrong, I dont care that it takes a while to get a pre and legendary.. But not with this increase…
Again I don’t care why they went up, or that it is real life experience etc… It is still a game where everyone should have equal chance to buy it for same price! Or anyway close to an equal chance. And it is not like its 2 times easier to get gold then before they went up..
Next to that I am not a regular gamer, over 2100 hours played here, doing pve, pvp, wvw, events, dungeons, I do it all. Last weekend I played on saturday and sunday 10 hours per day! Addicted a bit.
First two years I didnt even focus on legendaries, as I just enjoy playing the game, and for me collecting stuff is the fun part. So after that legendary I will still play the game, grinding for the second and enjoying just he living world 2 and all other content.
And yes, there are thing ANET could do, like increasing the drop rate a bit for T6 mats. They just dont care that there are people like me who feel like this is not fair.

So, apparently, group C players have discovered a mode of play that cannot get even close to what a drunken wind rider farmer can do. Seriously, what are they doing? I’m trying to do things that I know to be bad here and still making ‘tons’ of money in comparison to what you’re talking about.

Yup. You are. You are you. You are better than them. No doubt about that. And yet they still exist.

It is worth pointing out that what profit potential exists today was not always in place, so even if you were right that any player should be making 2-3 gold per day, you can’t retroactively apply that back to say that they should have accumulated that x 730. For example most sub-80 mats were almost worthless for a long time, until new recipes gave them some value. By the time a player earns 1200g using the current methods, that same precursor will cost 2000g. That’s a part of the problem, that yes, it’s easier to earn gold now than it once was but prices have gone up too, so the average purchasing power on high end items has not gotten any better.

…you know what, I concede. I admit that I simply cannot comprehend just how terrible at this game a big chunk of the player base really is. I can understand on an abstract level how someone can be that bad, but I just cannot actually visualize what that player’s day to day experience is like.

And that’s all I’m asking for. Comprehend that your experience is not everyone else’s experience.

Ohoni.6057:

And yet they still exist.

So they exist; why should they have ready access to legendaries? A big chunk of the value of the legendary is that they are somewhat exclusive; if rolling your face back and forth on your keyboard is the standard for the highest reward in PvE, then players who have put in even the barest effort to learn how to play the game would be swimming in legendaries.

How desirable would they be if they were as common as any other skin?

Fo kitten’s sake. Stop with those stupid threads! Find other kittening topics or just let the forum be as is. The developers know the fact, stop arguing each other and kittening do something else if you don’t like it as it is. A change may come eventually.

So they exist; why should they have ready access to legendaries? A big chunk of the value of the legendary is that they are somewhat exclusive; if rolling your face back and forth on your keyboard is the standard for the highest reward in PvE, then players who have put in even the barest effort to learn how to play the game would be swimming in legendaries.

First, I believe we’ve established that I reject your “rolling on the keyboard” argument for why these people aren’t rolling in gold right now.

Second, I reject the idea that an items value is defined by how many people don’t have them. The value is in the item itself, not in its exclusivity. I have two characters that use Greatswords, but even if I did manage to craft a Sunrise, only one of them would be using it, because the SAB GS works better for the other one. Me having a legendary does not make your legendary any less special, nor would you having one make mine any less special. What makes them special is the model and particle effects associated with the weapon.

How desirable would they be if they were as common as any other skin?

Very.

Ohoni.6057:

First, I believe we’ve established that I reject your “rolling on the keyboard” argument for why these people aren’t rolling in gold right now.

Er, not at all; I thought ‘rolling on the keyboard’ was your argument for why these people aren’t rolling in gold.

That’s where your logic has lead me and it is a conclusion I am prepared to accept. But now you’re saying that isn’t why they aren’t making any money? I don’t understand. What other explanations are left?

Ohoni.6057:

Let me flip this back on you … why do you think it’s reasonable that every player have a legendary, regardless of the time? I could care less if there is an achievement for having one or 14 legendaries. That doesn’t determine if it’s a reasonable goal or not. It’s a completely unreasonable goal given that some people simply don’t play enough in two years to warrant owning one.

I said “two years of earnest play” to head off that particular strawman, but apparently it didn’t take. I clearly don’t mean that everyone who logs in for a few hours a month, or who logs in and just chills out in LA or whatever, deserves a pony. I’m only talking about players that actually play the game, on a regular basis, and put in a reasonable amount of effort.

You didn’t head of any argument with that; you highlighted a fundamental difference in philosphy. I don’t understand why even an earnest player should expect to reasonably own a legendary …

Furthermore, who is ‘earnest’ is a completely subjective assessment. I consider myself an ‘earnest’ player … I’ve earned enough gold to have 3 legendaries by now. I only have 1. If I’m an earnest player, then why can’t other earnest players be like me? That’s why I’m not really buying into these arguments that earnest players can’t get a legendary if they want one. If two years of earnest play hasn’t earned someone enough gold/mats to get a legendary, I would argue they aren’t an earnest player.

Finally, if you don’t understand why precursor should be the limiting part of the legendary crafting process, then it’s clear why you won’t understand how an increase in precursors would be a negative impact on the game economy.

Er, not at all; I thought ‘rolling on the keyboard’ was your argument for why these people aren’t rolling in gold.

No, What I said was that these players were playing the game earnestly, playing the game well from any reasonably perspective, just not in a way that rakes in money at the rate you report. The way they play is not the way you play, and does not provide as much gold, but it is not lazy, or unskilled, just not profitable.

If two years of earnest play hasn’t earned someone enough gold/mats to get a legendary, I would argue they aren’t an earnest player.

And that’s where you’re very very wrong. There are lots of ways to make money in this game, and there are lots of activities that are not those ways. There are plenty of ways to play this game seriously and with the intention of “actually playing the game” that do not pour out money to the degree that some of you have been reporting. If you’ve found methods that have earned you thousands of gold over the past two years then that’s fantastic for you, but other players may have spent just as much time playing, and been doing the tasks they’ve been doing with plenty of skill, and yet have ended up with far less gold as a result, because the activities they pursued did not have as large a payout (and yet are perfectly valid ways to play the game).

Finally, if you don’t understand why precursor should be the limiting part of the legendary crafting process, then it’s clear why you won’t understand how an increase in precursors would be a negative impact on the game economy.

Then continue that thought, and explain what harm an increase in precursors would hurt the economy in a way that could not be corrected for. I haven’t heard any reasoning for that one. I’ve heard people say that it would drive u T6 prices, but we’ve already solved that one by simply increasing T6 supplies accordingly so that supply:demand would remain the same as it is today. What else would an increase in precursor supply do that would be bad for the game as a whole?

Ohoni.6057:

There are plenty of ways to play this game seriously and with the intention of “actually playing the game” that do not pour out money to the degree that some of you have been reporting.

Then that player doesn’t DESERVE to own a legendary. If someone want one, that at LEAST have to subject themself to content that rewards with the gold/mats to get it. The idea that it’s unfair that some ‘serious’ play modes don’t result in furthering a specific goal is nonsense. Don’t make me use the word ‘entitled’ on you.

Ohoni.6057:

Then continue that thought, and explain what harm an increase in precursors would hurt the economy in a way that could not be corrected for. I haven’t heard any reasoning for that one.

You won’t because anyone who is reasonable recognizes that it’s nonsense to justify getting more people legendaries by simply increasing mat drops. The point is to NOT introduce additional corrections. It’s WORK and it’s not necessary to ensure a few entitled people get a legendary. Anet’s goal is NOT to ensure everyone who plays ‘earnestly’ get’s a legendary. There is clearly some threshold set for what is required to own one. The goal isn’t to lower it, it’s to provide alternatives to get to that goal, equivalent to the current one. Increasing all the drops that make a legendary isn’t inline with an alternative route.

If the price of precursors are too high then simply forget about making any legendaries, just stop your gear progression there or just wait for a precursor to drop. It is no point complaining to ANet repeatedly over this when they have already decided not to do anything about this.

Then that player doesn’t DESERVE to own a legendary. If someone want one, that at LEAST have to subject themself to content that rewards with the gold/mats to get it. The idea that it’s unfair that some ‘serious’ play modes don’t result in furthering a specific goal is nonsense. Don’t make me use the word ‘entitled’ on you.

But the thing is that you overestimate how in touch the average player is, how much they keep track of the latest farms and methods for earning quick gold. They are just playing the game, and in their own little world, they are doing just fine. They are killing a bunch of stuff, completing events, they have plenty of gold to buy the Icy Runs they need, they should be set. Except when they check the TP and see people listing Precursors for ten times more than they’ve ever earned. Obviously nobody actually has that much money, right?

You would say that they haven’t earned a Legendary, I say that they should have. I do not feel that this is “entitlement.”

Anet’s goal is NOT to ensure everyone who plays ‘earnestly’ get’s a legendary

Why not? Why can’t it be their goal? It seems like a perfectly reasonable goal to me, “to make the majority of our players happy with their in-game experience” seems like an excellent goal for a game developer to have. Now, if Legendaries were SUPEr rare, like only a few hundred people had even one, and nobody could even dream of having two, then I would take your point, but when thousands of players have one, and dozens of those have even two or three of them, I don’t see how it is such an unreasonable stance that everyone who puts forth a solid amount of time and effort playing this game, but has not accumulated a massive amount of gold, should have one too.

If the price of precursors are too high then simply forget about making any legendaries, just stop your gear progression there or just wait for a precursor to drop. It is no point complaining to ANet repeatedly over this when they have already decided not to do anything about this.

Or instead, keep complaining and maybe they’ll do something about it. Or not. It’s up to the really, but there’s no reason to stop complaining if the cause of the complaint hasn’t been resolved yet.

OK, let’s be clear … the goal isn’t to get more people legendaries. If it was, the game would be structured in a completely different manner. Therefore, any suggestions to simply increase the mats needed to craft one are nonsense assuming Anet understands the implications of their game implementation (and I think it’s safe to say they do).

Now, Anet COULD make it their goal … but I don’t really see why. Anet has structured their game in a way that allows a certain kind of player and a certain fraction of the population to own one. That can change but the nonsensical part is pretending it NEEDS to change. It doesn’t. No one NEEDS a legendary. The current model isn’t broken. NO one needs it to be happy with the ingame experience. If the current structure of the game doesn’t bring you happiness, it’s just dumb to think constantly ‘raising the problem’ will somehow make you magically satisfied. I’ve NEVER seen a convincing argument why legendaries are problem.

People seem to be having a really hard time with the customer/provider relationship and it’s so simple. Customers do not set the expectations. I don’t go to Madza and tell them to make me a Lexus-model car with Lexus-level quality. I don’t go to Anet and tell them I want a WoW-type MoM experience with WoW reward system.

OK, let’s be clear … the goal isn’t to get more people legendaries. Therefore, any suggestions to simply increase the mats needed to craft one are nonsense.

The goal should definitely be to get more people legendaries. A legendary in every garage.

I don’t see any point to even discussing precursors if the premise of the discussion is that more people should have legendaries than currently do.

That can change but the nonsensical part is pretending it NEEDS to change. It doesn’t. No one NEEDS a legendary. The current model isn’t broken.

I think there should be a new Godwin’s Law for the Internet that involves the point when people start engaging in semantics discussions about the meaning of the word “need.” This is a game, nobody “needs” anything at all in the classical definition of the term. But it is a game, it is an entertainment product, and it’s goal is for people to enjoy themselves with it, and if someone feels they “need” a legendary to feel that they are having fun then it is not your place to dispute that. "If the use of the word “need” really bothers you that much, then just substitute in the phrase “want and deserve,” but the intended meaning is the same.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t see any point to even discussing precursors if the premise of the discussion is that more people should have legendaries than currently do.

You’re right … that’s why these threads are just stupid … because no one has justified WHY more players should have a legendary, especially when it’s obviously not Anet’s intent as indicated by how they have implemented the feature in the game.

You might think that’s just academic but Anet (or any other game dev) do care about maintaining there game concepts and systems and if a suggested change opposes their own concept to what a legendary should mean, it’s rather pointless to oppose the status quo with the weak ‘why not?’ argument.

So unless you got something better than “because it should be that way”, you’re really just another voice advocating entitlement for non-deserving players.

Ohoni.6057:

The way they play is not the way you play, and does not provide as much gold, but it is not lazy, or unskilled, just not profitable.

No, I’m drawing a firm line in the sand – if you cannot farm gold at 25% of the rate that I do when intentionally doing some of the least profitable stuff in the game, you suck. You’re making gold at less than 10% the rate of what a practiced farmer does, and you’ve been doing that for years.

That shows either a marked lack of skill or a marked lack of effort, and probably both. Drop the whole ’they’re not lazy or unskilled’ schtick. Yes, they are. This game is not even remotely difficult, and if you’ve been playing for years and have not learned even the most minimal of basics about making money, you aren’t trying.

You’re right … that’s why these threads are just stupid … because no one has justified WHY more players should have a legendary, especially when it’s obviously not Anet’s intent as indicated by how they have implemented the feature in the game.

And it’s a good thing nobody has to. It’d be as silly as people trying to justify that the current amount are “enough.” There should be more people with legendaries because there are currently people who want them, but do not have them. That’s so obvious that it really shouldn’t need explaining.

You might think that’s just academic but Anet (or any other game dev) do care about maintaining there game concepts and systems and if a suggested change opposes their own concept to what a legendary should mean, it’s rather pointless to oppose the status quo with the weak ‘why not?’ argument.

Again, they included, from day one, an achievement for earning no less than FOURTEEN legendaries, so they clearly never intended for them to be something that only a tiny fraction of the population would ever own even one of. I do think that 14 legendaries achievement should remain relatively rare though.

No, I’m drawing a firm line in the sand – if you cannot farm gold at 25% of the rate that I do when intentionally doing some of the least profitable stuff in the game, you suck. You’re making gold at less than 10% the rate of what a practiced farmer does, and you’ve been doing that for years.

And that lack of understanding and empathy is the core of why you’re dead wrong on this sort of discussion.

That shows either a marked lack of skill or a marked lack of effort, and probably both. Drop the whole ’they’re not lazy or unskilled’ schtick. Yes, they are. This game is not even remotely difficult, and if you’ve been playing for years and have not learned even the most minimal of basics about making money, you aren’t trying.

And that would be ok, because this game was not intended to be an economic simulator, it is meant to be an adventure game, and learning the ins and outs of the game’s economy should not have to be a core skill to learn. Just because a player is completely unskilled at the game’s economy, and therefore at making gold effectively, does not mean that they are unskilled at the game itself.

Ohoni.6057:

And it’s a good thing nobody has to. It’d be as silly as people trying to justify that the current amount are “enough.” There should be more people with legendaries because there are currently people who want them, but do not have them.

Just as I suspected; let me summarize your position

“I want it so I should have it, and with much lower effort than is currently required” – Entitlement. GL with that.

Ensign.2189:

Ohoni.6057:

The way they play is not the way you play, and does not provide as much gold, but it is not lazy, or unskilled, just not profitable.

No, I’m drawing a firm line in the sand – if you cannot farm gold at 25% of the rate that I do when intentionally doing some of the least profitable stuff in the game, you suck. You’re making gold at less than 10% the rate of what a practiced farmer does, and you’ve been doing that for years.

That shows either a marked lack of skill or a marked lack of effort, and probably both. Drop the whole ’they’re not lazy or unskilled’ schtick. Yes, they are. This game is not even remotely difficult, and if you’ve been playing for years and have not learned even the most minimal of basics about making money, you aren’t trying.

even though i think ohoni tends towards being a little too much towards the everyone should be able to do anything side of things.

Fact is many types of gameplay do not reward much gold.
personal story, and now living story, fractals, jumping puzzles, map completion, dynamic events that arent the go to farm events, story mode dungeons.

Also, you talk about items you get like the average player has no costs, leveling crafting, now, unlocking traits, maps/waypointing, making ascended, getting runes/sigils, exotics, these things basically use up many of the materials you say people should be selling, and they are basic tasks that lead towards best in slot, or general expected gameplay. Not to mention.

many many many players dont play the game to earn money, Precursors have become the economic pvp part of legendaries, but i wonder if that was the initial intent

Here is the thing … None of that matters. You don’t need to play the game to earn money to get money and furthermore, it’s indicative AGAIN of the fact that Anet does not intend for everyone to have a legendary who isn’t willing to go out of their comfort zone to get it. The fact that not every activity rewards people with sufficient gold reminds us that owning a legendary is something above and beyond the average player’s capability.

“I want it so I should have it, and with much lower effort than is currently required” – Entitlement. GL with that.

This is a game, “entitlement” is a perfectly good reason to do anything. Your position seems to be “I have what I want, I have earned it, therefore I deserve it” which is also entitlement, btw. Just because a system is a certain way now, does not mean that it has to be that way in future, or that it should be that way in future.

Earning something is not entitlement. Having it given to you because of your position is. This lack of understanding is why you’re position on legendary ownership is unreasonable, but that’s besides the point as it’s lost on you.

Frankly, if the best reasoning you can think of to increase legendary ownership is ‘because I want it’, I need to say no more. If you want it, it’s available to you and anyone else that wants one through earning it like everyone else that does own it. Everyone sees through this thinly veiled excuse used by undeserving players.

Again, I’m not saying it can’t change. I’m saying it won’t change unless there is some compelling reason to do so. No one has provided that. Maybe YOU think simply wanting something is compelling but that’s not relevant. I will repeat myself here: If Anet was compelled by this “I want it” argument, the reward structure that is currently ingame wouldn’t exist. What we have now is a consequence of the concept that Anet INTENDS for legendaries, and it’s clearly no where near widespread ownership. It’s a reward for earning it. That’s not likely going to change with “but I want it” nonsense.

What about someone like myself who almost exclusively plays wvw, how am I supposed to afford a pre? I’ve been sitting on all my gifts minus dawn for Sunrise for over a year now. There’s no way I could possibly afford the cost of a pre, I just do not generate enough money to get one off the tp so I’m just sitting here hoping every time I get a stomp that I’ll get one magically.

Somewhat disheartening to not have gotten one, I mean I don’t feel entitled for one to drop for me, but it does get annoying when I see some pve heroes bragging about how many legendaries they have or how many pres have dropped for them whilst they were smashing their faces into the keyboard auto attacking some world boss or some scrub deer, when the vast majority of pve content is soooo faceroll compared to any form of pvp. Whatever though idc, I enjoy playing wvw and that’s all that matters. I certainly think I have put in some solid effort, but have not been blessed by our Heavenly Father rnjesus like some other players have.

Earning something is not entitlement.

But this is a game. Everything is “earned” only in the sense that you jumped through the hoops that the developers placed for you. If the developers decide that they want those hoops lower to the ground, then the people who climb through those hoops are just as entitled as you were. “Earning” is always subjective.

Again, I’m not saying it can’t change. I’m saying it won’t change unless there is some compelling reason to do so. No one has provided that.

What reason is there for ever changing anything in a game other than “because the players would prefer it to be different?”

phys.7689:

Fact is many types of gameplay do not reward much gold.

I agree. Yet ‘not much gold’ over long periods of time still adds up to an awful lot of cash, and even pretty minimal participation in high gold events over a long time should result in big piles of money.

If the really serious farmers in this game are making enough money to afford a dozen legendaries in the past couple years, what are they doing that others that can’t afford a single precursor aren’t – and why can’t the latter group adapt accordingly?

phys.7689:

Also, you talk about items you get like the average player has no costs

I recognize that players have a lot of costs; between stuff that is important for playing the game (full sets of exotics and perhaps even ascended gear) and time sensitive (I’m not going to fault anyone for building the spinal blades backpiece or working on Mawdrey now). I’m just interested in knowing just how much wealth gets sucked into those things, as I can easily see burning a couple thousand gold on gearing out a couple characters with ascended gear, skinning that gear, and throwing money at living story rewards.

I don’t see anything wrong with that gameplay, but it does contextualize the whole ‘I can’t afford a precursor’ when a player has seen that kind of money over the years and allocated it to other, higher priority expenditures elsewhere.

I agree. Yet ‘not much gold’ over long periods of time still adds up to an awful lot of cash, and even pretty minimal participation in high gold events over a long time should result in big piles of money.

Eventually, perhaps, but as we’ve pointed out, the price of luxury goods have gone up considerably over time at a pace that is far above what those players earn. I believe that most players who have been playing since launch could probably afford the precursors they want if they were still as fall 2012 prices, but as the players have accumulated more money, the prices have gone up, and there’s no reason to believe they’ll ever catch up unless the system is changed in some way.

As others have pointed out, the prices was stable for many months prior to (Sept 13 to Feb 14) the 1st feature patch (wardrobe) and only since then there’s been a steep rise in price. Note their was a price drop between Feb 14 and the 1st feature patch.

And prior to that people had a lot less gold. I myself, after playing regularly to that point, only had a couple hundred gold in total at that point.

Ohoni.6057:

But this is a game. Everything is “earned” only in the sense that you jumped through the hoops that the developers placed for you. If the developers decide that they want those hoops lower to the ground, then the people who climb through those hoops are just as entitled as you were. “Earning” is always subjective.

Sure, but again … what is your compelling argument that the hoops should be lower? I don’t see them.

Ohoni.6057:

What reason is there for ever changing anything in a game other than “because the players would prefer it to be different?”

There are lots of reasons for changing things in a game other than players preferring to be different. Just because you can’t think of one for increasing legendaries doesn’t make that position a reasonable fallback.

Obtena.7952:

Ohoni.6057:

But this is a game. Everything is “earned” only in the sense that you jumped through the hoops that the developers placed for you. If the developers decide that they want those hoops lower to the ground, then the people who climb through those hoops are just as entitled as you were. “Earning” is always subjective.

Sure, but again … what is your compelling argument that the hoops should be lower? I don’t see them.

Ohoni.6057:

What reason is there for ever changing anything in a game other than “because the players would prefer it to be different?”

There are lots of reasons for changing things in a game other than players preferring to be different. Just because you can’t think of one for increasing legendaries doesn’t make that position a reasonable fallback.

thing is, anet has already acknowledged that the current method of precursor obtaining is not performing in the fashion that they had planned. Problem is they havent figured out what to do about it in 2 years.

Ohoni, is essentially saying they could make this current system more bearable at least

Unless, you think that what they said about needing and developing precursor crafting was a lie.

They haven’t figured it out because they run into the roadblocks that have already been discussed. Even they recognize that alternate methods to provide precursors will affect the markets in ways they would rather not have to deal with. Not only is there a philosophical issue with legendary increases, they can’t ignore the practical issues either. So many factors people are ignoring here.

Obtena.7952:

They haven’t figured it out because they run into the roadblocks that have already been discussed. Even they recognize that increasing precursors will affect the markets in ways they would rather not have to deal with. Not only is there a philosophical issue with legendary increases, they can’t ignore the practical issues either. So many factors people are ignoring here.

so what are you saying?

Is there a need for another means of obtaining precursors or not?
is anet right that precursors crafting is needed
or is anet wrong, and the current system is as it should be?

I was clear. Even if Anet agree with increasing legendaries, they recognize other barriers to getting more legendaries to people. That’s why there is a delay in implementing precursor crafting, if it even happens at all now. What I believe isn’t relevant.

Ohoni.6057:

There should be more people with legendaries because there are currently people who want them, but do not have them.

Worst argument is the history of everything. If all these people who want them really do want them, they should get off their donkeys and earn them.

Entitlement much?

Ohoni.6057:

“I want it so I should have it, and with much lower effort than is currently required” – Entitlement. GL with that.

This is a game, “entitlement” is a perfectly good reason to do anything. Your position seems to be “I have what I want, I have earned it, therefore I deserve it” which is also entitlement, btw. Just because a system is a certain way now, does not mean that it has to be that way in future, or that it should be that way in future.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

I sincerely enjoy this thread, please continue!