Guild Wars 2

Hi guys. I would like first to say that GW2 is quite possibly the best MMO I play currently. I see live posts from the devs, which means you are interacting w/ the community, trying to deal w/ issues, and for the most part you guys deliver an awesome game.

However. The Monetary System. Legendaries, Ascendeds, Gold inflation and Gem Store.

These are problems for me, and for many players. Now, a friend of mine has this HUGE long involved rationale about Ascended items, and how they’re supposed to be a pinnacle achievement, supposed to be hard to make, etc. His explanation also includes a commentary on how Ascended items are supposed to be a “gold sink”.

Which takes me to my main point… gold inflation is OUT OF CONTROL IN GW2.

May or so of 2013. 100 gems cost around TWO GOLD. TWO. Right now 100 gems is about SIXTEEN GOLD. Way Too Much.

Which takes me back to Ascended items and Legendaries. Making these items Unavailable to sell in the Black Lion was a HUGE error. One of the very few you devs have made. This is your opportunity to FIX that error, and a few others, and at the same time, REMOVE scads of gold from the GW2 economy. Thus making it MORE valuable.

1) What should have been done is that a 20 to 30 % transaction fee should have been assessed to ALL Legendary and Ascended sales. In addition, this fee should have been applied to all sales of ascended materials. MASSIVE GOLD SINK.

2) Movement speed needs to be made into a separate statistic and then set up so players go to a vendor and BUY speed. Such purchases should be ACCOUNT wide, so as to prevent penalizing those of us w/ more than five players. I Recommend 5 gold for 10% speed increases, 15 additional gold for 25% speed increase, and another 30 gold for 33% speed increase. Total is 50 gold per player for the entire account. MASSIVE GOLD SINK.

2B) This system also Neatly solves the ONGOING problem of speed increases for mesmers and guardian. And levels the playing field for all the other classes. Everyone pays the same fees, all their toons move at the same speed, this is as fair and equitable as it can be.

3) Commander for WvW. Several changes here can absorb gold and provide benefit to the WvW community and to those of us who have paid 100 gold to wear the tag.

3B) Commanders need to be given several small special abilities. I suggest that they be keyed to having the commander tag active, or to the commander having at least 10 players in his “group”. Also, I recommend that at the very least players be given the ability to change the color of the commander tag. A few extra shapes would be nice as well. Charge a couple of gold for color/shape changes.

3C) Commanders need a “Drop waypoint” ability. That is, every 10-15 mins a commander w/ an active tag or large enough group can create a TEMPORARY waypoint. One that lasts 2-5 mins or so. Big help for WvWs, especially in the Mists. Charge an additional 30 – 50 gold to CURRENT commanders for this ability.

3D) Commanders need to have a small combat boost ability. Say 1-5% for players IN THEIR GROUP. So those players do 1-5% MORE damage on ALL attacks. Charge 5-10 gold for this.

3E) Commander price needs to go up to 200 gold. Institute all the changes above at the suggested prices and then tell the community that in a month or two that they will have to pay 100 gold to get them. Watch the rats scurry to buy the improvements more cheaply!

I hope to see all of these ideas implemented. I am SICK and TIRED of logging on and checking the Black Lion and seeing that I have to pay FIFTEEN or more gold for 100 gems. It’s ridiculous. It’s insane. And it’s one thing that makes this game UNfun for the casual player.

Admitting that you made a mistake on Ascended sales, implementing my suggested speed and commander changes will help ALL players have a little more fun and give ALL of them more buying power.

The choice is yours. Will you devs Rise to the Challenge?

Not terrible ideas. But there are some more commander changes being implemented with the feature pack we know nothing about yet. It would be better to wait and see whats coming first.
About the cost of gems. This has been covered many times. The reason isnt inflation. The gold to gems, and gem to gold ratio is dependent upon players only. Anet has no control over this. The more people spend gold to get gems the price increases. The more people buy gems and convert to gold, the price decreases. Back in may of 2013, 2 gold was a lot because not everyone was farming dungeons, or playing the TP. We were still discovering the world and having fun. Not grinding for gold. But more people are going to use gold to convert to gems to buy those gem store items they want now, because we’ve learned how best to get gold. Those who do spend cash for gems are not converting them to gold, but rather using them solely in the gem store. The system is fine and is working as intended.

Ascended items being accout bound was also discussed. Removing that and making them sellable was also discussed and confirmed by the games economist, John Smith, as being a terrible idea, and would cause more problems than its worth.

When it comes to how things are implemented in the game, the economy is considered very carefully. Almost everything is run by John Smith and economic ramifications are throughly discussed and considered. Those things we have now were done in such a way as to have the least negative impact on the economy.

""About the cost of gems. This has been covered many times. The reason isnt inflation. The gold to gems, and gem to gold ratio is dependent upon players only. Anet has no control over this.""

SO.. if they have LESS gold to spend, then it follows that gem price should drop. If they have a LOT less gold, it should drop substantially. Funny that.

""The more people spend gold to get gems the price increases. The more people buy gems and convert to gold, the price decreases.""

There’s about a 4 to 5 gold GAP in the price one spends to BUY gems as opposed to SELLING gems. You’d have to be asleep to turn cash into gems into gold these days. Ain’t worth it. OH, and Tell me again how ANET is NOT manipulating prices. In a “real world” market, that sort of differential is a few percent at most, NOT 30 plus percent.

""Back in may of 2013, 2 gold was a lot because not everyone was farming dungeons, or playing the TP. We were still discovering the world and having fun. Not grinding for gold. But more people are going to use gold to convert to gems to buy those gem store items they want now, because we’ve learned how best to get gold.""

True to a point. Can you say “GOLD FARMERS”? Can you say China? Hmm? But that still does NOT excuse over a 700% increase in exchange rate. My suggestions will SUCK gold out of the economy. And gee, You obviously AGREE that when that happens, Gem price WILL go down.

Case closed. The prosecution rests.

pdavis.8031:

Not terrible ideas.
Ascended items being accout bound was also discussed. Removing that and making them sellable was also discussed and confirmed by the games economist, John Smith, as being a terrible idea, and would cause more problems than its worth.

Please send me a link to these discussions. I don’t recall reading them.

thanks.

There are so many fallacies in this thread. As it has been stated, the Gem → Gold prices have been debated so many times, and are confirmed to be working as intended by Anet’s economist.

The gem exchange rate is based entirely on the cumulative amount of gems bought and sold on the exchange. The more out of balance it is, the higher the rate gets in an attempt to lure players into selling gems to it, hopefully cash bought gems because the discount between the two rates is quite high. As such it has very little to do with traditional inflation.

The primary purpose of the Gold for Gems side of the exchange is to provide the gold used to pay player who are doing the opposite, selling Gems for Gold. It’s also a gold sink and sequester mechanism to decrease the amount of gold circulating in the game.

It is and never was a way for a player to avoid buying Gems with cash to get every item they desire out of the game’s cash shop. I know that is difficult to grasp for some but the game runs on cash purchases of gems. There is nothing in the cash shop that can give your character a distinct long term advantage in playing the game, mainly short term boosts, cosmetic skins, additional slots and a few convenience items. The price of items in terms of cash bought gems has not changed since the game’s launch or the item’s introduction (unless the item was modified).

China is on their own server cluster, their TP economy is not intermixed in ours.

The main problem is for those who steadfastly refuse to buy gems with cash is that the exchange rate is a positive feedback loop. The more gems bought with gold, the more gold you will need next time for the same amount of gems unless other players sell gems back to the exchange. As long as there is this imbalance, the rate will continue to rise and players who believe that bypassing spending cash to get the items they want at the cash shop will simply dig themselves further into a hole until there is no way for them to earn enough gold for the cash shop items they want.

You are a stubborn bunch. So my suggestion to you all is to, either buy a few gems each day every day and save them until something you want returns or goes on sale (called cost averaging). Or temper your desire for items at the store. Or crack open your wallets.

The game is only free in terms of a monthly subscription.

I really should just create a thread with all of John’s posts referenced and organized.

Nightshade.5924:

""About the cost of gems. This has been covered many times. The reason isnt inflation. The gold to gems, and gem to gold ratio is dependent upon players only. Anet has no control over this.""

SO.. if they have LESS gold to spend, then it follows that gem price should drop. If they have a LOT less gold, it should drop substantially. Funny that.

""The more people spend gold to get gems the price increases. The more people buy gems and convert to gold, the price decreases.""

There’s about a 4 to 5 gold GAP in the price one spends to BUY gems as opposed to SELLING gems. You’d have to be asleep to turn cash into gems into gold these days. Ain’t worth it. OH, and Tell me again how ANET is NOT manipulating prices. In a “real world” market, that sort of differential is a few percent at most, NOT 30 plus percent.

""Back in may of 2013, 2 gold was a lot because not everyone was farming dungeons, or playing the TP. We were still discovering the world and having fun. Not grinding for gold. But more people are going to use gold to convert to gems to buy those gem store items they want now, because we’ve learned how best to get gold.""

True to a point. Can you say “GOLD FARMERS”? Can you say China? Hmm? But that still does NOT excuse over a 700% increase in exchange rate. My suggestions will SUCK gold out of the economy. And gee, You obviously AGREE that when that happens, Gem price WILL go down.

Case closed. The prosecution rests.

John Smith.4610:

Tallis.5607:

There is no way for you or for me to change the price of gems, they are exclusively decided by Anet.

False. Anyone watching the exchange rate relative to the the many factors that induce supply or demand will see an extremely simple pattern that shows that the price of Gems and Gold is in fact controlled by player demand and is pretty volatile as one might expect from a system.

If players have less gold to spend, and are still converting it to gems, the price will still continue to go up. Even if you were to severely nerf all gold making activities, as long as players use gold to get gems the price will never drop. The only way to make it go down is to use cash to gems to gold,. But as you pointed out, thats is a silly thing to do with the current exchange.

Also about the account bound items, I was mistaken. It was a discussion about making items bought from the TP account bound to stop flippers. (People in that thread were upset that people were making money that way.)

Also this:

Ceronose.6019:
Well then I have to ask, isn’t Anet doing the same thing but worse?… Anet I just wanna bring up the point that if you guys had a set amount of gold you get from gems (and make it reasonable) then people might not be turning towards the gold sellers as I am.

[John Smith.4601]No we aren’t doing the same thing. We created an exchange fueled by player demand, not a port of sales of other people’s property. We don’t hack accounts, we provide the service to help return people’s hacked accounts and increase their future security. We don’t bot our game or engage in other illegal or destructive activities, because we love the game and the community, so we don’t create profit at the expensive of the players.
Secondly, there are several good economic reasons why we shouldn’t set a flat rate and sell gold. The forefront of which is that gold’s value is very relative to the scarcity of gold. With a flat rate and sales of gold we would risk hyper-inflating the economy. This would in turn alienate new players, and make the game much less fun overall.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Gold-sellers-vs-BLTC

John Smith.4610:

I feel like I’m reiterating a lot of what others have already stated here, but…

The game is designed to be a bit tight in the beginning. It is not our intent to amass wealth on players quickly or easily. We don’t want people to feel poor, but a sustainable economy is much better than an overly-inflationary economy.

The value of wealth is relative how much wealth there is.

pdavis.8031:

Also this:

Secondly, there are several good economic reasons why we shouldn’t set a flat rate and sell gold. The forefront of which is that gold’s value is very relative to the scarcity of gold. With a flat rate and sales of gold we would risk hyper-inflating the economy. This would in turn alienate new players, and make the game much less fun overall.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Gold-sellers-vs-BLTC

John Smith.4610:

I feel like I’m reiterating a lot of what others have already stated here, but…

The game is designed to be a bit tight in the beginning. It is not our intent to amass wealth on players quickly or easily. We don’t want people to feel poor, but a sustainable economy is much better than an overly-inflationary economy.

The value of wealth is relative how much wealth there is.

SO this implies that my evil suggestions are indeed GOOD ones. Hell, it outright SAYS that taking MASSIVE amounts of gold out of the economy would increase wealth.

How does it feel to be supporting My arguments?

Behellagh.1468:

The gem exchange rate is based entirely on the cumulative amount of gems bought and sold on the exchange. The more out of balance it is, the higher the rate gets in an attempt to lure players into selling gems to it, hopefully cash bought gems because the discount between the two rates is quite high. As such it has very little to do with traditional inflation.

The primary purpose of the Gold for Gems side of the exchange is to provide the gold used to pay player who are doing the opposite, selling Gems for Gold. It’s also a gold sink and sequester mechanism to decrease the amount of gold circulating in the game.

It is and never was a way for a player to avoid buying Gems with cash to get every item they desire out of the game’s cash shop. I know that is difficult to grasp for some but the game runs on cash purchases of gems. There is nothing in the cash shop that can give your character a distinct long term advantage in playing the game, mainly short term boosts, cosmetic skins, additional slots and a few convenience items. The price of items in terms of cash bought gems has not changed since the game’s launch or the item’s introduction (unless the item was modified).

China is on their own server cluster, their TP economy is not intermixed in ours.

The main problem is for those who steadfastly refuse to buy gems with cash is that the exchange rate is a positive feedback loop. The more gems bought with gold, the more gold you will need next time for the same amount of gems unless other players sell gems back to the exchange. As long as there is this imbalance, the rate will continue to rise and players who believe that bypassing spending cash to get the items they want at the cash shop will simply dig themselves further into a hole until there is no way for them to earn enough gold for the cash shop items they want.

You are a stubborn bunch. So my suggestion to you all is to, either buy a few gems each day every day and save them until something you want returns or goes on sale (called cost averaging). Or temper your desire for items at the store. Or crack open your wallets.

The game is only free in terms of a monthly subscription.

This argument seems sort of circular to me, and frankly leaves me scratching my head. It not only avoids my point about REMOVING massive amounts of gold from the economy, THEREBY making the REMAINING gold inherently more valuable, but it also IGNORES the fact that gems are being SPENT IN THE CASH SHOP.

So by the above argument the economy is inherently and PERMANENTLY INFLATIONARY. Because gems will always disappear into the Maw of the cash shop, whether they are bought w/ cash or gold.

And as long as ANET Continues to keep the exchange gap artificially high, there is NO INCENTIVE for players to buy gems and turn them into gold. Again, a 30% gap is Unrealistic and obviously artificial.

To illustrate my point: in 2002, in Japan, I would go to the currency exchange. I would buy yen for 121 for a US dollar. When I left, I could SELL my yen for 127 yen to a dollar. That’s about a 5% differential. Go ahead, use your calculator, It’s 5%.

Now I JUST looked at the Gem / Gold exchange. Seconds ago, It cost SEVENTEEN GOLD EVEN to buy 100 gems. And if I wanted to SELL 100 gems, I would get a pitiful 12 gold 33 silver and some copper. That is a differential of 28 percent. TWENTY-EIGHT.

Why would anyone in their right or left minds EVER turn gems into gold getting ripped off like that? It’s nonsense. Instead, you might spend $20 To buy some gems, and immediately spend them on a Character slot or whatever.

SO thank you. You have helped identify yet another item that needs to be fixed. This massive gap between gems / gold needs to be closed. It’s part of the problem. Still, I say my ideas will help VACUUM gold out of the system. Making what’s left more valuable. Basic economics!

• As a guardian and mesmer player, the speed boost idea is just horrible; simply put.
• Half of the commander changes are already coming, the others listed here are unnecessary and would hurt WvW (zergs waypointing to your front door, lovely).
• You do know that only a small number of ascended components can be traded, right? And that people craft those themselves anyway for the crafting xp to reach 500? The few which are traded plus legendaries (big money, but small numbers again) won’t affect much.

I know you were trying to help out here, but these suggestions won’t fix the economy by a long shot. And as a finishing point – players have set the price of gold:gems conversion, so plenty of them are happy with it where it is.

@Nightshade

Gems are only created when bought with cash or were seeded in the exchange when the game went live and destroyed only when used to buy something from the Gem Shop. Gold only comes from various activities in the game as rewards. The exchange creates neither Gold nor Gems.

Gold=>Gems have one purpose and that’s buying items from the Gem Shop. Buying Gems with cash however has two purposes, either buying items or act as an intermediary step to buy gold, that was already in the game, with cash.

The two exchange rates are locket at 72.25%. That’s 85% squared. This implies the exchange sinks 15% of the gold going in and coming out of the exchange. It’s no different than the TP, 15% off the top of every completed transaction. The gap also discourages the use of gems as short term storage of wealth as well as discourages attempts to manipulate the rates. This percentage gap was always there, back when you could buy 100 gems for 1 gold, 5 gold, 10 gold, etc. it was ever present.

The exchange in theory is simple. There are two vaults, one holding gold, one holding gems. They were seeded at the start of the game such that there was a lot of gems but very little gold. Now the two vaults are always of equal value. As gold is added and gems remove it makes the remaining gems worth more. Add gems and remove gold, gems are worth less. It’s that simple. And simply more players are adding gold and removing gems than the other way since the game started.

The only way ANet affects prices is adjusting what’s in the Gem Shop. The rest of the time it’s the notion we can get something for nothing that drives players to dump their gold into the exchange for gems to get that new/returning/on sale item. The current surge in the rate is solely due to long missing but desired items returning and the rush of players wanting to get them for “free”.

Why would any one want to convert cash to gold via gems? Because if you have money but not tons of time to spend in game, a $25 gem card buys you 200+g right now. This isn’t new gold but gold other players game up to buy gems, gems that are now refilled with this exchange. True that you could get more going to “dealers” but this way you won’t get banned, cheated or your account stolen.

And you know what? At midnight PDT when the next set of sale items hit, there will be another surge, depending what returning or items put on sale are added. As long as players have the gold sitting around that could be converted and as long as there’s something at the shop they want, the rate will keep ratcheting up ever higher over the next 10 days.

Nightshade.5924:

pdavis.8031:

Also this:

Secondly, there are several good economic reasons why we shouldn’t set a flat rate and sell gold. The forefront of which is that gold’s value is very relative to the scarcity of gold. With a flat rate and sales of gold we would risk hyper-inflating the economy. This would in turn alienate new players, and make the game much less fun overall.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Gold-sellers-vs-BLTC

John Smith.4610:

I feel like I’m reiterating a lot of what others have already stated here, but…

The game is designed to be a bit tight in the beginning. It is not our intent to amass wealth on players quickly or easily. We don’t want people to feel poor, but a sustainable economy is much better than an overly-inflationary economy.

The value of wealth is relative how much wealth there is.

SO this implies that my evil suggestions are indeed GOOD ones. Hell, it outright SAYS that taking MASSIVE amounts of gold out of the economy would increase wealth.

How does it feel to be supporting My arguments?

I dont see that stated or implied in any of the quotes that I posted. What was said in theose posts is that the players control the gem exchange rate, not anet. And reducing that rate, or making it a flat rate, would lead to a hyper inflated economy. Also if you are refering to the part where he says the value of wealth is relative to how much wealth there is, that doesn’t mean less gold means richer people. It means that if there was say only 100,000 gold total in the economy and 200,000 players, the value of gold would be much higher then say if there was 200,000 gold in the economy but only 100,000 players.

Also having static gold sinks of this nature only works for so long, but is not as effective as having dynamic sinks as well.

tolunart.2095:
Rouven.7409:
I’m not sure if John can, but if not, is someone else perhaps able to elaborate on the implications? Thanks in advance – and thanks John for participating here, love it!
Because most activities produce in-game currency (“gold” or whatever) from nothing, the amount of money in circulation tends to go up as the game ages. Currency sinks like repair costs are a major concern to new players, but a minor annoyance to more experienced players. Inflation of player-controlled market prices is expected, simply because it takes a lot of work to have 10 gold to spare on your toon while leveling, but when you’re at max level for six months you don’t upgrade or repair equipment as often so more experienced players have more gold to spend.
The game works much differently when 5% of the players have recently achieved max level vs. when 50% of the players are at max level and gearing alts. The market reflects this as a natural consequence of players involved in the game over time. The design of the game reflects this, for example removing repair costs makes it easier for newer players to accumulate gold while experienced players barely notice the difference.
Devs have to watch the effect of currency sinks and faucets carefully, and try to balance the amount of money in circulation with the sinks designed to remove it in order to make sure that new players can afford basic equipment as they level but experienced players can still feel as though they have goals to achieve. If either side is too rich or too poor the game suffers.
[John Smith.4601] To add to this. There are many different types of currency sinks, but the most common error when attempting to control for inflation is to apply a set of large static sinks. An example of a large static sink is something like a commander’s icon. You want a bunch of these in the game, but you don’t want them to be your only tool for controlling inflation.
What I call “Dynamic Sinks” are important. These are sinks that either change naturally with the state of the economy, or a sink that designers can modify to pull more or less money out of the total supply. The trading post is an example of a dynamic sink.
Combining multiple types of sinks together allow you to more effectively control the money supply as well as don’t look terrifying to a new player when he sees that there are 900,000 gold worth of stuff he needs to buy at level 80.

About speed increases for gold. Perhaps, but not usable for PvP or WvW because then it becomes a “Pay to Win” scenario. Then you have people being able to buy gold with cash (via the exchange) and buying speed buffs creating a unfair advantage to those who dont buy them. Plus we already have temporary speed boosters that can be purchased via gems, or gotten via black lion chests. Making them permenant would cause players to revolt.

pdavis.8031:

About speed increases for gold. Perhaps, but not usable for PvP or WvW because then it becomes a “Pay to Win” scenario. Then you have people being able to buy gold with cash (via the exchange) and buying speed buffs creating a unfair advantage to those who dont buy them. Plus we already have temporary speed boosters that can be purchased via gems, or gotten via black lion chests. Making them permenant would cause players to revolt.

Pay to win? Hardly. See, the flaw is in your assumption that people won’t buy these speed buffs. 5 gold for 10% account wide. Chicken Feed. But it’s still 5 gold PER PLAYER pulled out of the overall economy. Millions of gold GONE.

15 gold for 25%. Still not to pricey, and again, at account wide, this is something I know mesmer and guardian players would appreciate, despite a comment to the contrary. Two of my friends play these classes.. and have been, hmmm, IRATE, for some time how those classes have been stiffed time and again speed wise.

Pay to win? So YOU are saying that’s its okay to lock two classes into permanent (or at least so far!) slowness. Put another way, I do NOT see the problem in charging EVERYONE EQUALLY for a “mount”. Other games do this, it’s not a big deal. As it would be when you imply w/ “revolt”.

And hey, it would seem that if all of this tripe in this thread IS true, players buying gems to convert to gold IS A GOOD THING. So what’s your problem? More gems being bought is good, less gold is good… do you like paying 17 gold (or more?) for 100 gems?

Me, I’m a casual player. I’ve been w/ this game over a year. I have three lvl 80 toons. I have over 100 gold currently. 17 gems is still QUITE expensive. The inflationary trend NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH. Quit being part of the problem.

Last thing.. we’re all gamers here. I simply cannot believe that IF the DEVS enacted this change, that almost EVERY SINGLE PLAYER that could would NOT immediately spend 50 gold to have 33% speed for ALL of their toons. It’s simply nonsensical.

John Smith.4610:

I feel like I’m reiterating a lot of what others have already stated here, but…

The value of wealth is relative how much wealth there is.

[/quote]

SO this implies that my evil suggestions are indeed GOOD ones. Hell, it outright SAYS that taking MASSIVE amounts of gold out of the economy would increase wealth.

How does it feel to be supporting My arguments?

[/quote]

I dont see that stated or implied in any of the quotes that I posted. What was said in theose posts is that the players control the gem exchange rate, not anet. And reducing that rate, or making it a flat rate, would lead to a hyper inflated economy. Also if you are refering to the part where he says the value of wealth is relative to how much wealth there is, that doesn’t mean less gold means richer people. It means that if there was say only 100,000 gold total in the economy and 200,000 players, the value of gold would be much higher then say if there was 200,000 gold in the economy but only 100,000 players.

[/quote]

In fact, YES, less gold in the overall economy DOES make everyone “richer”. It’s called “deflation”. Or put another way, you now have less of a ‘good’. Since it is MORE scarce, it has more inherent value.

[/quote]

[John Smith.4601] To add to this. There are many different types of currency sinks, but the most common error when attempting to control for inflation is to apply a set of large static sinks. An example of a large static sink is something like a commander’s icon. You want a bunch of these in the game, but you don’t want them to be your only tool for controlling inflation.
What I call “Dynamic Sinks” are important. These are sinks that either change naturally with the state of the economy, or a sink that designers can modify to pull more or less money out of the total supply. The trading post is an example of a dynamic sink.
Combining multiple types of sinks together allow you to more effectively control the money supply as well as don’t look terrifying to a new player when he sees that there are 900,000 gold worth of stuff he needs to buy at level 80.[/quote]

But where are the static sinks that would ‘help’ the problem? Repair costs went away. Dynamic sinks are a nice concept, but obviously are NOT doing the job. I again point out that a year and a half ago 100 gems cost TWO gold. Those same 100 gems now cost OVER 17 GOLD. That’s something on the order of 850% inflation.

Oh, and making Legendaries and ALL ascended items and materials saleable would be a JIM DANDY dynamic sink, per my original post. So someone please give me the link, if it exists, that explains WHY this is such a bad idea?

my apologies, I’m having some issues editing the quote system.

I have more than 50k gold in assets to sell, if i wanted to. Right now i am crafting my 6th set of ascended gear so i dont need to buy asc stuff from the tp.
How do you sink my gold? The couple of gold for commander tag amenities i shuffle out on the side without making a dent into my wallet. Most of your suggestions are p2w borderline anyways.

Your proposal would do little to my wealth but make it very hard for new players to become a commander or get ascended gear. If it somehow should be a massive gold sink (which i doubt) and get the gold/gem ratio significantly down, i will still be as rich as before and substantially more rich compared to new players.

Thank you very much.

Wanze.8410:

I have more than 50k gold in assets to sell, if i wanted to. Right now i am crafting my 6th set of ascended gear so i dont need to buy asc stuff from the tp.
How do you sink my gold? The couple of gold for commander tag amenities i shuffle out on the side without making a dent into my wallet. Most of your suggestions are p2w borderline anyways.

Your proposal would do little to my wealth but make it very hard for new players to become a commander or get ascended gear. If it somehow should be a massive gold sink (which i doubt) and get the gold/gem ratio significantly down, i will still be as rich as before and substantially more rich compared to new players.

Thank you very much.

Ayup.

So, better question to you, someone who has tons of cash:

“What would you spend money on?”

GW2 does need ways to siphon money out of the economy, but making it a forced tweak to earnings just builds player resentment and slows growth on newer players. Rather, we need to encourage players to spend money on things. These things either need to be non-permanent or a swank cosmetic upgrade, since power-creep isn’t much an option.

One of the best things a non-sub game can do is to sell convenience. So, what can GW2 do to both provide convenience at a premium?

@ nightshade, You keep conflating the market and it’s inflation issue with the gem:gold ratio issue. These are 2 completely separate discussions. The only similarity they have is that they use gold as a currency and both are 2 years old by now.

Rauderi.8706:

Ayup.

So, better question to you, someone who has tons of cash:

“What would you spend money on?”

GW2 does need ways to siphon money out of the economy, but making it a forced tweak to earnings just builds player resentment and slows growth on newer players. Rather, we need to encourage players to spend money on things. These things either need to be non-permanent or a swank cosmetic upgrade, since power-creep isn’t much an option.

One of the best things a non-sub game can do is to sell convenience. So, what can GW2 do to both provide convenience at a premium?

There’s very little Anet could do to siphon huge amounts of gold out of super wealthy players’ bankrolls…..for many reasons:

1. Wealthy players have gotten wealthy by informing themselves and making smart decisions. They’re not likely to just dump 10%, 20%, or 50% of their bankroll on “something cool”. That wouldn’t be a smart decision.
2. Anything that would be priced high enough to pull enough gold out of the system to be worthwhile would need to be absolutely amazing. This would end up causing player resentment throughout the community based on the fact that ONLY the super wealthy could afford to buy it. With the level of entitlement in this game, the outrage would be enormous (See: Any Precursor thread).
3. Anet would need to find a way to get into the psyche of a wealthy players mind to figure out what they would need to create in order to part this wealthy player from their money. Good luck. I doubt the wants / needs of wealthy players align….unless that want / need is “more money”.

The following is not directed toward the quoted posts:

So many threads are created from the point of view of a single individual and not from the point of view of “is this feature doing it’s job” or “what’s best for the players at large”.

The Gem —> Gold and Gold --> Gem controversies are just individual players complaining that THEY can’t buy what they want from the Gem store for “free”. The entire Gem Exchange is built on the foundation of player psychology. Most players don’t want to spend money….ESPECIALLY if there is an option to acquire the same item using in-game currency. The Exchanges has been explain in such depth SO many times, it amazes me that players are still confused by what’s happening.

More gold sinks ARE good for a game like GW2, but one time, Account Bound, gold sinks do VERY little for the game in the long run. Sure, they might take out a bunch of gold right when the “feature” is released, but the longer the game is out, the distribution of that sink is spread so thin that a one time sink of 1,000,000g turns into an average daily sink of 20c per player. What’s needed in the realm of gold sinks are sustained and flexible sinks that are used by the player on a daily basis. The Trading Post fees are the PERFECT example of this. ANY sale removes 15% of the purchase price of the item from the system. As prices rise, more gold is removed from the system, but it’s never more than 15% of the purchase price. Brilliant!!!

Waypoints are another good gold sink. They’re something that all players use on a daily basis. On low level characters, the price for using a WP is relatively low, but as the player levels the character, the WP cost increases….to its maximum when a player reaches level 80. Also, depending on how far a player wants their character to travel, the cost is adjusted. Close WP’s are cheaper than WP’s that are further away. Players don’t think much about these WP costs because, in comparison to the amount of money the player earns after using a WP, they’re pretty cheap. Using WP’s is a “no brainer” for most players. They’ll bounce around the world without a second thought to how much it costs. Perhaps, if more gold needs to be sunk from the economy, Anet should consider increasing the costs of WP’s….maybe 10x, so a WP that costs 4s to use now, would cost 40s. I guarantee something like that would cause an enormous amount of outrage from the player-base though.

My suggestion, to those making suggestions, is to try and open your point of view to the player-base and game as a whole. Take off the blinders. Stop thinking about what YOU want and think more about “what’s best for the game?”. I know this won’t happen though based on the way I see many suggestions worded. Individuals word suggestions in such a way to make them sound as if they’re speaking for the entire player-base. I KNOW they’re worded that way because if they’re speaking for the entire player-base, why do I disapprove of their suggestions? That means they don’t speak for me.

I’ll step down from my soapbox now. Continue.

Rauderi.8706:

Wanze.8410:

I have more than 50k gold in assets to sell, if i wanted to. Right now i am crafting my 6th set of ascended gear so i dont need to buy asc stuff from the tp.
How do you sink my gold? The couple of gold for commander tag amenities i shuffle out on the side without making a dent into my wallet. Most of your suggestions are p2w borderline anyways.

Your proposal would do little to my wealth but make it very hard for new players to become a commander or get ascended gear. If it somehow should be a massive gold sink (which i doubt) and get the gold/gem ratio significantly down, i will still be as rich as before and substantially more rich compared to new players.

Thank you very much.

Ayup.

So, better question to you, someone who has tons of cash:

“What would you spend money on?”

GW2 does need ways to siphon money out of the economy, but making it a forced tweak to earnings just builds player resentment and slows growth on newer players. Rather, we need to encourage players to spend money on things. These things either need to be non-permanent or a swank cosmetic upgrade, since power-creep isn’t much an option.

One of the best things a non-sub game can do is to sell convenience. So, what can GW2 do to both provide convenience at a premium?

Honestly, i dont know. Most of the time, i invest gold into more assets because they usually rise in value (while gold inflates), so i keep a low wallet of a couple of hundred gold to play with. I do this mainly for fun, not to generate more wealth.
Also, in the last 6 months, i didnt spend much of my gold to buy stuff from the gem store because i already have most account upgrades, so i only convert gold for the odd skin I might like or a new convenience item. I am on my 5th server atm, so i spend some gold to transfer and build up new guild banks, but with the global guild bank being introduced with the feature pack, those costs wont be there anymore as well.
I used to spend alot of gold on BL keys but there is nothing interesting in them anymore that i cant buy directly on the tp.
I still spend a fair amount of gold for crafting ascended sets and i dont farm all common mats myself. But if I buy them, i put in buy orders and i wouldnt be affcted by the 20-30% tax on ascended items.
Apart from that, i propably pay more gold per hour in wvw for food and nourishment buffs, upgrades and superior siege than i earn playing wvw for an hour.

@nightshade

Let me put this simply.

1)Gem>gold:Gold>gem exchange is not a sign of inflation. It’s an exchange rate.
2)All your suggestions are based on the assumption that the economy and the exchange are broken. The economy is working like a finely tuned clock, and is not suffering from inflation. The exchange is working properly and as intended.

I understand it can be disheartening to see the gold>gem prices continually rise, but the only way to combat this is to break out your wallet. If you want to buy the new shiny things in the gem store, converting gold is only going to increase the price for gems, which doesn’t do anyone any favors. Also about the gold sink suggestions. Introducing a mechanic where it gives an actual advantage over another player places it in the realm of pay to win. So one player can pay cash for gold, and buff all his characters up to say +50% speed. Yes it does remove that gold. However a newer/not as rich player, can only afford to buy a 10% speed increase, and is now at a disadvantage. Especially in PvP or WvW.

As far as classes being slow or not having speed buffs? Guardians actualy have several skills that grant swiftness, and a couple that allow for teleportation. Mesmers Also have several skills for teleportation and swiftness. If anything necros lack much of any kind of mobility. However there are temporary speed boosters which can be purchased or found in black lion chests. And from what I understand these are not used in PvP, and not sure about WvW.

Nightshade.5924:

~~~ snip ~~~

I can’t believe this thread is still alive. To assist you, here’s a nice quote from John.

John Smith.4610:

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

John Smith.4610:

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

Less charitably: if you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should probably spend the time to read the definition of inflation.

In all fairness, put yourself in the developer’s shoes. If you are him, all you care is how much profit Anet is making and not, you need to grind 3 to 4 times longer for what you previously need to.

pdavis.8031:

@nightshade

Let me put this simply.

1)Gem>gold:Gold>gem exchange is not a sign of inflation. It’s an exchange rate.
2)All your suggestions are based on the assumption that the economy and the exchange are broken. The economy is working like a finely tuned clock, and is not suffering from inflation. The exchange is working properly and as intended.

Also about the gold sink suggestions. Introducing a mechanic where it gives an actual advantage over another player places it in the realm of pay to win. So one player can pay cash for gold, and buff all his characters up to say +50% speed. Yes it does remove that gold. However a newer/not as rich player, can only afford to buy a 10% speed increase, and is now at a disadvantage. Especially in PvP or WvW.

As far as classes being slow or not having speed buffs? Guardians actualy have several skills that grant swiftness, and a couple that allow for teleportation. Mesmers Also have several skills for teleportation and swiftness. If anything necros lack much of any kind of mobility. However there are temporary speed boosters which can be purchased or found in black lion chests. And from what I understand these are not used in PvP, and not sure about WvW.

Real world example. 1930’s Germany. Inflation was so bad that money earned in one week had to be SPENT by the next week or it would literally be WORTHLESS. Look it up.

YES, the exchange rate IS a sign of HORRENDOUS INFLATION. What does gold buy? Gems. What do gems buy? Cool little conveniences like skins, more bank slots, more toons, special nodes, etc.

Here’s where the inflation comes in… the prices in the shop HAVE NOT CHANGED. SO…. the GOLD PRICE for any GIVEN item is NOW EIGHT POINT FIVE TIMES what it was a year and a half ago. That is the VERY DEFINITION OF INFLATION. To the last two chaps who don’t apparently don’t think so, I say get an education.

Someone commented about how new players would be “punished” by my speed boost suggestion. Isn’t making them have to earn 8.5 TIMES as much gold as some of us old hands to get bank slots or a new toon slot or a Black lion kit JUST as BAD?

You lot need to check your nonsense at the door. I realize full well that that the “Bill Gates” types will not be impacted by ANY of my suggestions. I’ll take note in my next post of a couple of you who commented on this.

Here’s a much better new idea… ANET needs to do a gold reset. All gold currently in circulation needs to be set to 10% of its current value. That hits everyone, even the really rich, but more importantly only affects the really rich the most.

Thank you for making me think of that!

Oh… necros have a perma 25% speed boost. It’s a power like rangers and elementalists. I don’t give A RIP about temp boosts for any toon. I say again… “MOUNTS”. All toons should have the EQUAL chance to move at MAX speed. Otherwise the toons that DO NOT HAVE THAT ability are the ones that are being treated unfairly by the game.

laokoko.7403:

In all fairness, put yourself in the developer’s shoes. If you are him, all you care is how much profit Anet is making and not, you need to grind 3 to 4 times longer for what you previously need to.

But a DEV should care that it takes say EIGHT times as much time. That’s the sort of thing that discourages new players and makes them go somewhere else to play.

Nightshade.5924:

“MOUNTS”

You just lost the little credibility you had left. I cant take you serious anymore.

There could also be significantly less people turning gem→gold.

I don’t think there’s a simple answer to the question.

Nightshade.5924:

laokoko.7403:

In all fairness, put yourself in the developer’s shoes. If you are him, all you care is how much profit Anet is making and not, you need to grind 3 to 4 times longer for what you previously need to.

But a DEV should care that it takes say EIGHT times as much time. That’s the sort of thing that discourages new players and makes them go somewhere else to play.

there is a reason I didn’t say 8 times as much time. Since you actually earn more gold compare to before.

If the price of everything went up, you also earn more money from the loots you sell.

Ayrilana.1396:

I really should just create a thread with all of John’s posts referenced and organized.

Might keep these types of very long threads built on complete incorrect analysis of the economy from popping up ….. but I doubt it.

In all fairness, put yourself in the developer’s shoes. If you are him, all you care is how much profit Anet is making and not, you need to grind 3 to 4 times longer for what you previously need to.

This is an unfair and incorrect assessment of what Dev and Anet in generals “cares” are. 2 years after launch, it should be apparent that Anet is not in this for a quick profit and get out situation (what you have suggested with your “all you care about is how much profit Anet is making”, goal).

The real goal here is to engage the player base for the LONG term (like 5 to 10 years). This includes being profitable, but not at the expense of destroying the long term potential of the game while keeping existing players in the game and appealing to new players at the same time. This is a difficult juggling act, but I think so far Anet has done a decent job (far from perfect, but if I thought it was perfect, 100 other players would likely hate the game).

@nightshade

John Smith.4610:

For anything regarding the currency exchange I will say that the currency exchange is NOT a good indicator of market prices or inflation, it wasn’t designed to be.

John Smith.4610:

As far as other ideas like the GW2 economy has rampant inflation or there are other virtual economists online that don’t approve of this economy, that’s simply not even close to true.

John Smith.4610:

The gold to gem rate on the exchange is not a measure of inflation. If you consider how the exchange works and interacts with players you’ll realize that it’s a great measure of only one thing…

John Smith.4610:

wwwes.1398:

When you consider game inflation, do you primarily look at the prices of farmable material and blues/greens or do you take into account super-rare items acquired from drops, rewards or gems? Is the reason you say inflation isn’t a problem simply that the items with crazy high prices are the only things with a price rising so rapidly?

When looking at inflation I use a large bundle of common goods
(the bundle changes depending on the time frame and the game state). I never use super-rare items or anything involving gems.

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

Question:
Do you care/will do something about the fact game economy is really perceived as broken?
Or if you instead think its well perceived, why don’t you look at every single thread that had the luck to remain for few hours in general section?

There were many threads about how important economy perception is in a videogame.

If by “really perceived” you mean that you mistakenly perceive a fantastic and functioning system as broken, then no… I don’t care.

John Smith:
1. Inflation is increasing prices drastically and causing a series of negative outcomes.
A. This simply isn’t true. Inflation is very, very well controlled in gw2.
(link not working: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Golds-from-dungeon-is-killing-the-economy/page/4#post4141549)

These are just SOME of the responses from John Smith, the games economist, who states over and over, that 1) Inflation is not happening and 2) The gem exchange is not a sign of inflation. It never has been and never will be.
So unless John Smith is completely wrong, and has no idea what he is talking about, or is lying to us to make us feel better. Any arguement that the gem exchange is a proof of inflation is incorrect. I have tried to explain it to you, but for whatever reason you can’t accept it. So maybe the words of John Smith will help educate you.

Nightshade.5924:

~~~ snip ~~~

It costs me the same amount to buy a Salvage kit or a Mining pick from a merchant. It also costs me the same amount of money to buy 4,000 Gems.

Nightshade.5924:

Which takes me to my main point… gold inflation is OUT OF CONTROL IN GW2.

May or so of 2013. 100 gems cost around TWO GOLD. TWO. Right now 100 gems is about SIXTEEN GOLD. Way Too Much.

While it is on a steady climb, I wouldn’t call that out of control. It’s fairly obvious that Gems would slowly rise in prices as more and more people get around to farming and desiring certain items in the Gem Store.

Which takes me back to Ascended items and Legendaries. Making these items Unavailable to sell in the Black Lion was a HUGE error.

The most vocal opinion on the forums is that being able to sell legendaries on the TP was a very, very bad move by ANet.

1. What should have been done is that a 20 to 30 % transaction fee should have been assessed to ALL Legendary and Ascended sales. In addition, this fee should have been applied to all sales of ascended materials. MASSIVE GOLD SINK.
2. Movement speed needs to be made into a separate statistic and then set up so players go to a vendor and BUY speed.
3. Commander for WvW. Several changes here can absorb gold and provide benefit to the WvW community and to those of us who have paid 100 gold to wear the tag.
   1. Commanders need to be given several small special abilities. I suggest that they be keyed to having the commander tag active, or to the commander having at least 10 players in his “group”. Also, I recommend that at the very least players be given the ability to change the color of the commander tag.
   2. Commanders need a “Drop waypoint” ability. That is, every 10-15 mins a commander w/ an active tag or large enough group can create a TEMPORARY waypoint. One that lasts 2-5 mins or so. Big help for WvWs, especially in the Mists.
   3. Commanders need to have a small combat boost ability. Say 1-5% for players IN THEIR GROUP. So those players do 1-5% MORE damage on ALL attacks.
   4. Commander price needs to go up to 200 gold.

1. Why? The vocal portion of the forums is of the opinion that Legendaries should not be on the TP at all. Some people use precursors to make profit by turning them into Legendaries and selling those instead. What your fee would do is make that an unfeasible thing, so you’d see most legendaries disappear from the TP. Also, it would actually harm those people who legitimately regret making a legendary. I see no positives to your idea over just making Legendaries not sellable.
2. Not going to happen. Movement speed and access to it is part of balance in combat. What you’re asking is for the team to basically sell power for.. in-game currency. That’s only one level above selling it on the Gem Store in the “kittentiest things you could possibly do” ranking.
3. Commanders are paying for the ability to make Squads and visibility on the map. Nothing more, nothing less.
   1. They are putting in additional colours in the Feature Pack next month.
   2. OBJECTION! What you’re suggesting would give commanders a massive advantage in WvW combat, literally making a tag a necessity for anyone who wants to lead an optimized group in WvW. Also, WvW is balanced around the handful of waypoints it has now. Your idea would basically result in zergs being even more unstoppable than they are now, since they could just have multiple people coordinate setting up waypoints to get practically permanent waypoints whenever they please.
   3. HOLD IT! This would, again, make commander tags a necessity, even for smaller groups.
   4. It’s actually going up to 300 gold, while becoming account bound in the Feature Pack.

I hope to see all of these ideas implemented. I am SICK and TIRED of logging on and checking the Black Lion and seeing that I have to pay FIFTEEN or more gold for 100 gems. It’s ridiculous. It’s insane. And it’s one thing that makes this game UNfun for the casual player.

Admitting that you made a mistake on Ascended sales, implementing my suggested speed and commander changes will help ALL players have a little more fun and give ALL of them more buying power.

The choice is yours. Will you devs Rise to the Challenge?

Holy cakemix, you sure got an arrogant, know-it-all tone there, pal. I was able to find at least something objectionable in all of your points, so clearly you’re not nearly as flawless as you seem to think yourself to be.

Also, I don’t think that you understand the point of a gold sink. A good gold sink is effective and unobtrusive. Your suggested gold sinks are literally locking powerful functionality behind a gold sink. While your gold sinks would have tremendous effectiveness, that effectiveness would come at a cost of basically extorting the WvW population for it.

Nightshade.5924:

However. The Monetary System. Legendaries, Ascendeds, Gold inflation and Gem Store.

These are problems for me, and for many players.

Don’t we know it. Look around these forums; yourself, and countless others, lack even the most basic of understanding of how those things work, yet still hold strong opinions about them.

There are plenty of threads in this forum explaining how these systems work, and ample help in understanding economic terms that will help you in the real world as well, like understanding the difference between inflation and an exchange rate.

Do you want to actually learn something or would you rather be an obnoxious ignoramus? The choice is yours.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Ayrilana.1396:

I really should just create a thread with all of John’s posts referenced and organized.

Might keep these types of very long threads built on complete incorrect analysis of the economy from popping up ….. but I doubt it.

It was more for our benefit so that we wouldn’t have search for a specific post of his but instead just a link to the thread.

Ayrilana.1396:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Ayrilana.1396:

I really should just create a thread with all of John’s posts referenced and organized.

Might keep these types of very long threads built on complete incorrect analysis of the economy from popping up ….. but I doubt it.

It was more for our benefit so that we wouldn’t have search for a specific post of his but instead just a link to the thread.

You can always use my post above. I believe it covers the basics of inflation, and gold to gem exchange.

Ensign.2189:

Nightshade.5924:

However. The Monetary System. Legendaries, Ascendeds, Gold inflation and Gem Store.

These are problems for me, and for many players.

…like understanding the difference between inflation and an exchange rate.

Do you want to actually learn something or would you rather be an obnoxious ignoramus? The choice is yours.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nightshade.5924:

~~~ snip ~~~

It costs me the same amount to buy a Salvage kit or a Mining pick from a merchant. It also costs me the same amount of money to buy 4,000 Gems.

If the price of everything went up, you also earn more money from the loots you sell.[/quote]

pdavis.8031:

@nightshade

John Smith.4610:

For anything regarding the currency exchange….

John Smith.4610:

As far as other ideas like the GW2 economy has rampant inflation….

John Smith.4610:

The gold to gem rate on the exchange is not a measure of inflation. If you consider how the exchange works…

John Smith.4610:

wwwes.1398:

Is the reason you say inflation isn’t a problem simply that the items with crazy high prices are the only things with a price rising so rapidly?

When looking at inflation I use a large bundle of common goods…. I never use super-rare items or anything involving gems.

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

Question:
Do you care/will do something about the fact game economy is really perceived as broken?
Or if you instead think its well perceived… There were many threads about how important economy perception is in a videogame.

If by “really perceived” you mean that you mistakenly perceive a fantastic and functioning system as broken, then no… I don’t care.

John Smith:
1. Inflation is increasing prices drastically and causing a series of negative outcomes.
A. This simply isn’t true. Inflation is very, very well controlled in gw2.
(link not working: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Golds-from-dungeon-is-killing-the-economy/page/4#post4141549)

These are just SOME of the responses from John Smith.. 1) Inflation is not happening and 2) The gem exchange is not a sign of inflation. It never has been and never will be.
So unless John Smith is completely wrong… Any arguement that the gem exchange is a proof of inflation is incorrect. I have tried to explain it to you, but for whatever reason you can’t accept it. So maybe the words of John Smith will help educate you.

to ensign.. do you have a college degree? Have you taken economics courses? Have you paid ANY attention to my previous posts? My guess is the answer is NO to all the preceding.

Inflation is defined in Websters. Look it up. My last post clearly demonstrates that the gold / Gems economy is badly inflationary. BY definition. One of my earlier posts also used the example of a real world exchange, SO YES, I do grasp the basics. And the exchange HERE IS being deliberately manipulated. Read the whole thread, someone else said it, not me.

to smooth penguin.. YES, if you buy gems w/ CASH, the price hasn’t changed. Totally agree. If you buy something at a vendor, the price hasn’t changed. Totally agree. As for buying Gems w/ Gold, go read my other posts.

to pdavis… go look at a REAL world exchange. Real world exchanges are ALL ABOUT the relative buying power of one nation’s economy as compared to another. That is expressed in the relative value of one nation’s CURRENCY in regards to another. Like say, GEMS and GOLD.

And please learn MATH. With all due respect to Mr. Smith, a more famous Smith once wrote a very important book on this whole topic. I had to read parts of it once upon a time. It’s the sort of thing that gives you a new perspective. You might try it.

My point being again… EIGHT POINT FIVE TIMES the gold cost of 18 months ago. That’s an increase of 100% base Two gold cost about every two months. TEXT BOOK INFLATION. Gems are fixed good, w/ a fixed buying price in the shop. I don’t care what Mr. Smith is SAYING, the MATH is SCREAMING something quite different.

Put yet another way… IF a year ago you went to the store and bought a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk for a dollar, and then TODAY you went to that SAME store, bought the SAME type of milk and bread, but NOW had to pay EIGHT AND A HALF DOLLARS FOR IT, what would YOU, pdavis, call that? What would you be saying?

I really would like to know.

My apologies for the length of this one. Cheers.

There’s a difference between inflation and a shift in supply/demand.

Also, Nightshade, how are you calculating inflation?

Nightshade.5924:

Here’s where the inflation comes in… the prices in the shop HAVE NOT CHANGED. SO…. the GOLD PRICE for any GIVEN item is NOW EIGHT POINT FIVE TIMES what it was a year and a half ago. That is the VERY DEFINITION OF INFLATION. To the last two chaps who don’t apparently don’t think so, I say get an education.

This is where your fundamental mistake is.

You’re ASSUMING that items in the Gem Store are intended to be purchased with Gold. In fact, you would be completely and totally wrong in that assumption.

Items in the Gem Store are purchased with Gems, not Gold. Anet wants you buy Gems with real world money, not Gold. As a “convenience”, Anet added an Exchange that allows you exchange EITHER real money OR Gold for Gems.

I find it amusing that you state that the price of items in the Gem Store have gone up 8.5 times in Gold over what they were a year and a half ago, but neglect the other side of the Exchange completely. You also state, then completely ignore the fact, that the prices of items in the shop have not changed at all. Which is it?

Your entire argument is centered around the prices of items in the Gem Store inflating. This is 100% completely and totally wrong. A Character Slot Expansion costs the exact same 800 Gems as it did the day the game was released. Those 800 Gems can be purchased with the same $10 they could be the day the game was released.

Read this and understand it:

Anet wants you to buy Gems with money, then buy things in the Gem Store with those Gems. “Inflation” in the Gem Store does not exist. 800 Gems = $10….just like it did on Day 1.

Nightshade.5924

pdavis.8031:

@nightshade

John Smith.4610:

For anything regarding the currency exchange….

John Smith.4610:

As far as other ideas like the GW2 economy has rampant inflation….

John Smith.4610:

The gold to gem rate on the exchange is not a measure of inflation. If you consider how the exchange works…

John Smith.4610:

wwwes.1398:

Is the reason you say inflation isn’t a problem simply that the items with crazy high prices are the only things with a price rising so rapidly?

When looking at inflation I use a large bundle of common goods…. I never use super-rare items or anything involving gems.

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

Question:
Do you care/will do something about the fact game economy is really perceived as broken?
Or if you instead think its well perceived… There were many threads about how important economy perception is in a videogame.

If by “really perceived” you mean that you mistakenly perceive a fantastic and functioning system as broken, then no… I don’t care.

John Smith:
1. Inflation is increasing prices drastically and causing a series of negative outcomes.
A. This simply isn’t true. Inflation is very, very well controlled in gw2.
(link not working: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Golds-from-dungeon-is-killing-the-economy/page/4#post4141549)

These are just SOME of the responses from John Smith.. 1) Inflation is not happening and 2) The gem exchange is not a sign of inflation. It never has been and never will be.
So unless John Smith is completely wrong… Any arguement that the gem exchange is a proof of inflation is incorrect. I have tried to explain it to you, but for whatever reason you can’t accept it. So maybe the words of John Smith will help educate you.

to pdavis… go look at a REAL world exchange. Real world exchanges are ALL ABOUT the relative buying power of one nation’s economy as compared to another. That is expressed in the relative value of one nation’s CURRENCY in regards to another. Like say, GEMS and GOLD.

And please learn MATH. With all due respect to Mr. Smith, a more famous Smith once wrote a very important book on this whole topic. I had to read parts of it once upon a time. It’s the sort of thing that gives you a new perspective. You might try it.

My point being again… EIGHT POINT FIVE TIMES the gold cost of 18 months ago. That’s an increase of 100% base Two gold cost about every two months. TEXT BOOK INFLATION. Gems are fixed good, w/ a fixed buying price in the shop. I don’t care what Mr. Smith is SAYING, the MATH is SCREAMING something quite different.

Put yet another way… IF a year ago you went to the store and bought a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk for a dollar, and then TODAY you went to that SAME store, bought the SAME type of milk and bread, but NOW had to pay EIGHT AND A HALF DOLLARS FOR IT, what would YOU, pdavis, call that? What would you be saying?

I really would like to know.

My apologies for the length of this one. Cheers.

I’m getting the impression that you do not understand how the gem exchange works. I’ll try to break it down.
There is a set amount of gold, and a set amount of gems in the exchange. Everytime you use gold for gems, you add gold to the pool and remove gems, creating an imbalance. The more people use gold for gems, the greater the imbalance, thus higher prices for gems. The amount of gems you can buy with cash has always remained constant. $1.25 for 100 gems. When you use gems to convert to gold, you add gems into the pool and subtract gold. Doing so decreases the imbalance and shifts it the other direction. (i.e. lowering the price.) The only reason the prices are the way they are is that many players use gold to get gems, which creates a greater imbalance between gold and gems in the exchange, and higher prices. This is NOT inflation. This is a byproduct of players wanting to get gems for “free”.

Nightshade.5924:

~ long snip ~

I have a business degree, and economics was a requirement. I’m sure John has a degree as well. So please enlighten me where you come off on trying to insult us, when your whole problem is that you don’t understand the subject you’re trying to make an argument on.

John Smith.4610:

Short and sweet:
If you think inflation is a major issue in Guild Wars 2, you should do more research on MMO economies and general economics.

John Smith.4610:

2) When you consider game inflation, do you primarily look at the prices of farmable material and blues/greens or do you take into account super-rare items acquired from drops, rewards or gems? Is the reason you say inflation isn’t a problem simply that the items with crazy high prices are the only things with a price rising so rapidly?

Regarding the Gold → Gem exchange rates:

John Smith.4610:

It’s working as intended.

Regarding the TP:

John Smith.4610:

I don’t agree. The best result for the game and therefor the best result for ArenaNet is for the markets to work as efficiently as possible (usually). Fortunately, the nature of the trading post provides a lot of natural force for markets to work efficiently. While nothing is 100% perfect, the large majority of every part of the game’s economy runs incredibly efficiently and we put a lot of effort into making sure that they remain that way.

And finally:

John Smith.4610:

Tears are the source of my evil powers, but not a source of data…………yet.

pdavis.8031:

Nightshade.5924

pdavis.8031:

@nightshade

John Smith.4610:

For anything regarding the currency exchange….

John Smith.4610:

As far as other ideas like the GW2 economy has rampant inflation….

John Smith.4610:

The gold to gem rate on the exchange is not a measure of inflation. If you consider how the exchange works…

John Smith.4610:

wwwes.1398:

Is the reason you say inflation isn’t a problem simply that the items with crazy high prices are the only things with a price rising so rapidly?

When looking at inflation I use a large bundle of common goods…. I never use super-rare items or anything involving gems.

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

Question:
Do you care/will do something about the fact game economy is really perceived as broken?
Or if you instead think its well perceived… There were many threads about how important economy perception is in a videogame.

If by “really perceived” you mean that you mistakenly perceive a fantastic and functioning system as broken, then no… I don’t care.

John Smith:
1. Inflation is increasing prices drastically and causing a series of negative outcomes.
A. This simply isn’t true. Inflation is very, very well controlled in gw2.
(link not working: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Golds-from-dungeon-is-killing-the-economy/page/4#post4141549)

These are just SOME of the responses from John Smith.. 1) Inflation is not happening and 2) The gem exchange is not a sign of inflation. It never has been and never will be.
So unless John Smith is completely wrong… Any arguement that the gem exchange is a proof of inflation is incorrect. I have tried to explain it to you, but for whatever reason you can’t accept it. So maybe the words of John Smith will help educate you.

to pdavis… go look at a REAL world exchange. Real world exchanges are ALL ABOUT the relative buying power of one nation’s economy as compared to another. That is expressed in the relative value of one nation’s CURRENCY in regards to another. Like say, GEMS and GOLD.

And please learn MATH. With all due respect to Mr. Smith, a more famous Smith once wrote a very important book on this whole topic. I had to read parts of it once upon a time. It’s the sort of thing that gives you a new perspective. You might try it.

My point being again… EIGHT POINT FIVE TIMES the gold cost of 18 months ago. That’s an increase of 100% base Two gold cost about every two months. TEXT BOOK INFLATION. Gems are fixed good, w/ a fixed buying price in the shop. I don’t care what Mr. Smith is SAYING, the MATH is SCREAMING something quite different.

Put yet another way… IF a year ago you went to the store and bought a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk for a dollar, and then TODAY you went to that SAME store, bought the SAME type of milk and bread, but NOW had to pay EIGHT AND A HALF DOLLARS FOR IT, what would YOU, pdavis, call that? What would you be saying?

I really would like to know.

My apologies for the length of this one. Cheers.

I’m getting the impression that you do not understand how the gem exchange works. I’ll try to break it down.
There is a set amount of gold, and a set amount of gems in the exchange. Everytime you use gold for gems, you add gold to the pool and remove gems, creating an imbalance. The more people use gold for gems, the greater the imbalance, thus higher prices for gems. The amount of gems you can buy with cash has always remained constant. $1.25 for 100 gems. When you use gems to convert to gold, you add gems into the pool and subtract gold. Doing so decreases the imbalance and shifts it the other direction. (i.e. lowering the price.) The only reason the prices are the way they are is that many players use gold to get gems, which creates a greater imbalance between gold and gems in the exchange, and higher prices. This is NOT inflation. This is a byproduct of players wanting to get gems for “free”.

He doesn’t care. It’s been explained to him numerous times yet he believes what he believes. You can’t debate with someone like him because if you don’t agree then you’re wrong, plain and simple.

Then he gets disparaging. “Do you have a college degree?” pphhtt. Yes I do, and a minor in economics in my case but if you can’t tell the difference between an exchange and an open economy there is no point in discussing it other than to repeatedly prove your beliefs wrong so you don’t drag anyone else along with you.

@behellagh

Yeah I kinda figured. But still there was nothing else to do at work so… :P

Nightshade.5924:

to ensign.. do you have a college degree? Have you taken economics courses? Have you paid ANY attention to my previous posts? My guess is the answer is NO to all the preceding.

If you really want to go down that route, I’ve completed master’s level coursework in both economics and statistics.

I am sorry to say that I have paid attention to your posts, and it is abundantly clear that a couple buzzwords are the limit of your knowledge and are trying to make up the difference by being loud.

So I am not surprised that you are, again, wrong about everything. You seem to have a talent for it.

Behellagh.1468:

He doesn’t care. It’s been explained to him numerous times yet he believes what he believes. You can’t debate with someone like him because if you don’t agree then you’re wrong, plain and simple.

I learned a long, long time ago that you aren’t debating him. He is the straw man. You can’t beat him, there’s nothing there.

You use him as a canvas to wax for the audience; everyone else reading the thread but not posting anything. Situations like this present teachable moments and I don’t like to waste them.

Plus, you know, sometimes kicking the trolls is kind of fun.

@nightshade

Also your comparison of the gem exchange to a real world exchange is flawed. In a real world exchange, the rates are constantly in flux, and can shift dramatically within hours. For example: US dollar to euro. The rate is determined by the current value of the USD when compared to the Euro. But both economies are constantly shifting and the rates changes accordingly. In the gem exchange, both the gold and the gem value do not change. Gems have always remained constant (a real world value of $1.25 USD) and gold has not lost value either. The in game vendors have had the same prices from the beginning. The TP prices fluxuate based on player supply and demand. It is easier to get gold now then last year, so the TP prices reflect that. Players with more gold now are more willing to pay more. This doesnt mean its inflated. It means that players are earning gold more by doing activities that offer more gold as a reward and ignoring activities that dont have an immediate gold payout.
Plus, gold is being destroyed at nearly the same rate as its being generated through the various gold sinks. (TP fees, way points, traits, etc.) So if the same amount of gold is destroyed per hour as its being generated, how is this inflation?

Behellagh.1468:

pdavis.8031:

Nightshade.5924

pdavis.8031:

@nightshade

John Smith.4610:

For anything regarding the currency exchange….

John Smith.4610:

As far as other ideas like the GW2 economy has rampant inflation….

John Smith.4610:

The gold to gem rate on the exchange is not a measure of inflation. If you consider how the exchange works…

John Smith.4610:

wwwes.1398:

Is the reason you say inflation isn’t a problem simply that the items with crazy high prices are the only things with a price rising so rapidly?

When looking at inflation I use a large bundle of common goods…. I never use super-rare items or anything involving gems.

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

Question:
Do you care/will do something about the fact game economy is really perceived as broken?
Or if you instead think its well perceived… There were many threads about how important economy perception is in a videogame.

If by “really perceived” you mean that you mistakenly perceive a fantastic and functioning system as broken, then no… I don’t care.

John Smith:
1. Inflation is increasing prices drastically and causing a series of negative outcomes.
A. This simply isn’t true. Inflation is very, very well controlled in gw2.
(link not working: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Golds-from-dungeon-is-killing-the-economy/page/4#post4141549)

These are just SOME of the responses from John Smith.. 1) Inflation is not happening and 2) The gem exchange is not a sign of inflation. It never has been and never will be.
So unless John Smith is completely wrong… Any arguement that the gem exchange is a proof of inflation is incorrect. I have tried to explain it to you, but for whatever reason you can’t accept it. So maybe the words of John Smith will help educate you.

to pdavis…
Put yet another way… IF a year ago you went to the store and bought a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk for a dollar, and then TODAY you went to that SAME store, bought the SAME type of milk and bread, but NOW had to pay EIGHT AND A HALF DOLLARS FOR IT, what would YOU, pdavis, call that? What would you be saying?

I really would like to know.

My apologies for the length of this one. Cheers.

I’m getting the impression that you do not understand how the gem exchange works. I’ll try to break it down.
There is a set amount of gold, and a set amount of gems in the exchange. Everytime you use gold for gems, you add gold to the pool and remove gems, creating an imbalance. The more people use gold for gems, the greater the imbalance, thus higher prices for gems. The amount of gems you can buy with cash has always remained constant. $1.25 for 100 gems. When you use gems to convert to gold, you add gems into the pool and subtract gold. Doing so decreases the imbalance and shifts it the other direction. (i.e. lowering the price.) The only reason the prices are the way they are is that many players use gold to get gems, which creates a greater imbalance between gold and gems in the exchange, and higher prices. This is NOT inflation. This is a byproduct of players wanting to get gems for “free”.

He doesn’t care. It’s been explained to him numerous times yet he believes what he believes. You can’t debate with someone like him because if you don’t agree then you’re wrong, plain and simple.

Then he gets disparaging. “Do you have a college degree?” pphhtt. Yes I do, and a minor in economics in my case but if you can’t tell the difference between an exchange and an open economy there is no point in discussing it other than to repeatedly prove your beliefs wrong so you don’t drag anyone else along with you.

“there is a set amount of gold”…. Really. With gold constantly incoming on a minute by minute basis. That’s set? Hmm. Interesting viewpoint.

I’ve never argued the price of gems, only gold vis a vis gems.

How is a constantly increasing price for a fixed good, GEMS, NOT inflation? Impress me w/ your college skills, because that’s nonsense.

Any real exchange is PART of an open economy.

Anyone can SAY they have a degree old bean. I see you totally avoided my question at the end. The one about the store and buying stuff there. Why would that be?

pdavis.8031:

@nightshade

Also your comparison of the gem exchange to a real world exchange is flawed. In a real world exchange, the rates are constantly in flux, and can shift dramatically within hours. For example: US dollar to euro. The rate is determined by the current value of the USD when compared to the Euro. But both economies are constantly shifting and the rates changes accordingly. In the gem exchange, both the gold and the gem value do not change. Gems have always remained constant (a real world value of $1.25 USD) and gold has not lost value either. The in game vendors have had the same prices from the beginning. The TP prices fluxuate based on player supply and demand. It is easier to get gold now then last year, so the TP prices reflect that. Players with more gold now are more willing to pay more. This doesnt mean its inflated. It means that players are earning gold more by doing activities that offer more gold as a reward and ignoring activities that dont have an immediate gold payout.
Plus, gold is being destroyed at nearly the same rate as its being generated through the various gold sinks. (TP fees, way points, traits, etc.) So if the same amount of gold is destroyed per hour as its being generated, how is this inflation?

See, again, flawed. Gems SHOW the relative value of gold in the exchange. Values ARE changing, usually on a daily basis. Don’t believe me, check the market for yourself.
Granted that the change isn’t usually all that much, but a month ago 100 gems was about 15 gold. This whole thing that I keep reading about “fixed amounts of gold in the exchange” is garbage on the face of it. Fixed amounts of Gems, that makes sense given the INFLATIONARY trend.

And my argument is to add more sinks. Because obviously the ones we have are NOT doing the job.