Do our content then whip out your credit card
Just think of the millions of micro transactions that must have taken place on impulse, its not that there isn’t another way, its that the current way is more profitable than we realise.
Again, it’s not a matter of questioning results. It’s the matter of how gameplay is directed/affected in the attempt to achieve these results.
1 in every 3 or 4 sets put in to the game and not the gem store would still make them money and at the same time give people something to work for in game. No one is saying for them to not make money. It is laziness and greed as the small loss on one set here or there compared to how many they pump out would not hurt their profits that much. And it definitely would not make it so they couldn’t afford to keep the game running so stop saying that crap.
What happened to doing a cool quest line or killing a difficult boss to get a weapon skin in games?
You get that from the good ole sub-based games. Anet has to keep paying the rent, so the Gem Store is what we get.
Actually in those “good ol’ sub based” games it’s always about grinding 9001 hours of something to earn the item. Why? To make you pay for 9001 hours of subscription time. You want to earn a reward for beating a challenging boss? Go play Dark Souls. Single player games are the only ones that still truly design around challenge, because replayability is important when the game is paid for only once. Persistent games always come with time-based caveats.[/quote]
Everything this.
Single-player s the only way to go for a truly rich experience, especially RPG’s.
I’ve been putting off Witcher2 a while now…
List of people whose posts speak on my behalf:
Lunar Sunset.8742
Rogue.7856
Lunar Sunset.8742
Rogue.7856
Just think of the millions of micro transactions that must have taken place on impulse, its not that there isn’t another way, its that the current way is more profitable than we realise.
Again, it’s not a matter of questioning results. It’s the matter of how gameplay is directed/affected in the attempt to achieve these results.
yes in a perfect world where money isn’t a factor. gameplays secondary to making money, besides its pretty easy to make the argument that if your making money, gameplay cant be that bad? and this game must be making money through the cash shop, otherwise they would’ve heeded the forums call for change long ago. im not saying they haven’t taken in some feedback from the community, or that I agree with the direction the cash shops gone, but we’re still playing despite all the things we complain about not being delivered, and we should keep giving criticism but don’t be under any false illusion that money isn’t the No.1 objective.
Actually in those “good ol’ sub based” games it’s always about grinding 9001 hours of something to earn the item.
That’s a false statement.
Why? To make you pay for 9001 hours of subscription time. You want to earn a reward for beating a challenging boss?
I earned my Suppanomimi when I cleared Diving Might. I earned my Rajas Ring when I cleared Chains of Promathia. And I earned my Joyeuse when my Linkshell and I killed Charybdis. There was no grinding involved. I earned them. And I felt a great sense of accomplishment in doing so.
My question is, where are all the money from the gem store being funnel to. We know that they’re making net profit by their financial reporting.
It wouldn’t be so bad if they would improve game play wise by fixing bugs and problems that existed since the game came up, getting kick out of dungeon when host leaves, chat logs disappearing, events that gets stuck, events that are bugged and likely will never occur again, stealth is op (hardly any counter), warrior is op (seriously how can something thats so tanky still dish out massive damage or how can something so glassy still be so tanky), no gvg (for a game that call itself guild wars)
Also we don’t want no living story that any recent college grad can come up with, what we want is challenging content, raids that lets us work unit as a guild to take down, we need more bosses like teq and wurm that rewards ppl with unique skins, not just a reskin of another item.
As of right now, I don’t see any benefit of guild. Give us a reason to join or form guild, to communicate and work together to take down something big.
I’m ok with the cosmetics in the gem store. I don’t care for a lot of them and I bought the game a long time ago for $60. If i was doing the regular $12 a month sub fee I would of paid a lot more. (add to the fact games where you pay a monthly fee and there is a huge wait in updates)
I don’t mind throwing some money to Anet if there is something I really want as I’ve already put in over 500 hours into this game so about 12 cents an hour.
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
If all the complainers don’t want to get their hands down and dirty to produce food, they need to realize that foods are actually “FREE” when you exchange money. There are people who never actually produce a single food by themselves and yet have plenty of food.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
Time always have value. In fact, time is the ultimate value and the ultimate equality. Everyone gets 24hrs a day, no more or less. Time is an accepted currency for a job, which generated $. When i get money by working, I give up my right to use my time the way i wish.
When i give up gold to get gems, i give up my right to use gold as i wish.
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
Time always have value. In fact, time is the ultimate value and the ultimate equality. Everyone gets 24hrs a day, no more or less. Time is an accepted currency for a job, which generated $. When i get money by working, I give up my right to use my time the way i wish.
When i give up gold to get gems, i give up my right to use gold as i wish.
Wrong again. Time is not a currency. Time is used to earn currency, as with a job. If you have a job, that’s the only point in which time has a monetary value.
Now if you’re talking about “personal value”, then yes, time is valuable to you. But again, it’s not a currency, so you can’t argue it as such. Just like how I value my knowledge of business. I don’t go around treating it like a currency, asking for free food in exchange for debating the goods and evils of the Trading Post.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Whoa-whoa-whoa whoa!
I don’t hate gemstore because it takes cash.
I hate gemstore because the stuff IN it is horse-kitten-kitten-kitten-kitten-kitten.
List of people whose posts speak on my behalf:
Lunar Sunset.8742
Rogue.7856
Lunar Sunset.8742
Rogue.7856
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
Time always have value. In fact, time is the ultimate value and the ultimate equality. Everyone gets 24hrs a day, no more or less. Time is an accepted currency for a job, which generated $. When i get money by working, I give up my right to use my time the way i wish.
When i give up gold to get gems, i give up my right to use gold as i wish.
Wrong again. Time is not a currency. Time is used to earn currency, as with a job. If you have a job, that’s the only point in which time has a monetary value.
Now if you’re talking about “personal value”, then yes, time is valuable to you. But again, it’s not a currency, so you can’t argue it as such. Just like how I value my knowledge of business. I don’t go around treating it like a currency, asking for free food in exchange for debating the goods and evils of the Trading Post.
Free implies “without cost or payment”. If i have to exchange X to get Y, it is NOT free by any means.
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
Time always have value. In fact, time is the ultimate value and the ultimate equality. Everyone gets 24hrs a day, no more or less. Time is an accepted currency for a job, which generated $. When i get money by working, I give up my right to use my time the way i wish.
When i give up gold to get gems, i give up my right to use gold as i wish.
Wrong again. Time is not a currency. Time is used to earn currency, as with a job. If you have a job, that’s the only point in which time has a monetary value.
Now if you’re talking about “personal value”, then yes, time is valuable to you. But again, it’s not a currency, so you can’t argue it as such. Just like how I value my knowledge of business. I don’t go around treating it like a currency, asking for free food in exchange for debating the goods and evils of the Trading Post.
Free implies “without cost or payment”. If i have to exchange X to get Y, it is NOT free by any means.
But my post relates “Free” with respect to the spending of real life monies. So yes, Gems can be gotten for free when you exchange in game Gold.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I don’t think the problem is as much that there aren’t enough skins available from gameplay, but there aren’t enough specific enemies that drop specific skins. I mean, I remember going into Sorrow’s Furnace in the first GW and farming certain bosses for a specific skin and it felt so much more rewarding when you got what you were looking for.
As it stands now, it feels like there’s no real aim for any farming and good item drops are just something that happen randomly with no rhyme or reason.
This isn’t true, as the gw2 equivalent of Uniques are associated with enemies. However there is a great deal of randomness and a god-awful paucity of information on what exotics drop from what.
Here’s some examples:
1. Say you want a Flame weapon. Where do you hunt for it? It’s a Charr cultural weapon, so you find them in Ascalon. What drops it? Just about anything if you’re above level 34 – it’s a common Rare.
2. You see someone holding a kittening scythe, called Final Rest. Where do you get it? From the only critter that has it: the Shadow Behemoth.
3. Here’s a tougher one, and a cool one. Lord Taerne’s Shadow. What drops it? Chances are good, if you have one, you took it off of a Champion Spider.
4. The horrible looking greatsword Crystal Guardian – where would you get this? You look for a Branded champ.
4. You want to make a Corrupted Weapon, but that requires a lot of luck in finding a level 80 Etched weapon to start it. Where should you be hunting for it? I’ll let you guess this one.
You’re not talking about the same thing I am. Regional drops are not the same thing as specific skins that drop from a single, named boss.
Except that I am talking about the exact same thing, in point #2, and something very close in point #3. Named Boss drops specific weapon – all World Bosses do. 15 versions of Champ box each have their own drop list, and each champ is assigned one box – unnamed boss drops specific weapon.
And if you think people in GW1 didn’t want regional skins, you clearly weren’t around for raptor farming for those ugly-kitten elemental swords, or never saw anyone with a Storm Bow. EotN brought a lot of new skins as regular drops, but I think they were confined to end-of-dungeon chests.
I.e. If you wanted to get the Razorstone, then you would need to kill Tanzit Razorstone.
The main differences between GW and GW2’s systems are that there aren’t a lot of named bosses and there aren’t weapons named for them. GW uniques were farmed more for stat combinations than looks. GW2’s wardrobe makes stats irrelevant.
Besides, no one farms for those skins. The handful of people that like those items just buy them from the trading post if they haven’t unlocked the skins already. No one would go out to farm charr for a flame weapon. Since those drop from ANY charr in the entire zone, they could never make the droprate of those weapons high enough for them to be worth the time to farm them. Especially considering that so many people get those all the time without trying and end up throwing them on the TP for next to nothing.
First of all, this point’s irrelevant. We’re talking about having the system of farmable weapons in the game, and it exists.
Second, it’s bullkitten. People don’t farm them because they don’t know that they can. There’s no immediate mental association between Champion Spider and Lord Tyrnes’ Shadow like there is between Rago and Rago’s Fire Staff, and up until recently there were only two Champ trains in operation. Of course, it doesn’t help that the source of the exotics, the champ box, all look the same, so it looks like one item can produce anything. On top of that, and no offense, GW2’s wiki needs some serious help.
Third, it’s bullkitten. The value of these things has nothing to do with the fact that the system of them being available or farmable exists in the game. It only affects their desirability as a farmable item.
Fourth, it’s bullkitten. GW didn’t have an ingame system for listing weapons, but it existed in the form of guildwarsguru.com. Most people that wanted to buy a rare item went there and got it. If the existence of the trading post makes farmable weapons not-a-thing, then vis-Ã -vis the old auction house system does the same thing. The difference between the two is a supply glut.
I’m ok with the cosmetics in the gem store. I don’t care for a lot of them
Which is why you are ok with cosmetics in the gem store, it does not affect you.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
For the rewards
Seriously, pretty soon this game will have more weapons/armor originating from the gem store than from the actual game.
BTW, if you want something from gemstore, you can get it with gold.
Oh well, the woes of a F2P game I suppose.
Are people OK with this? I’d actually almost prefer at this rate to not have new stuff added if it’s only gem store based.
What happened to doing a cool quest line or killing a difficult boss to get a weapon skin in games?
What happened is that people got sick of doing that difficult boss hundreds of times to get that weapon skin.
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
If all the complainers don’t want to get their hands down and dirty to produce food, they need to realize that foods are actually “FREE” when you exchange money. There are people who never actually produce a single food by themselves and yet have plenty of food.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
People seem to forget that just because a Player did not spend " real-world money" doesn’t mean that Gold they exchanged for Gold was " free."
It was earned, by exchanging time, energy, thinking, and effort. That Gold wasn’t given to them, and they did not wake up One day to see the gold appear out of nowhere.
When the person you responded to speaks as he does, he trivializes the effort and the experiences of players that also pay to buy things on the gem store.
It is Not only the ones that pull the wallet and credit card out, that “pay” for gw2.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
If all the complainers don’t want to get their hands down and dirty to produce food, they need to realize that foods are actually “FREE” when you exchange money. There are people who never actually produce a single food by themselves and yet have plenty of food.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
People seem to forget that just because a Player did not spend " real-world money" doesn’t mean that Gold they exchanged for Gold was " free."
It was earned, by exchanging time, energy, thinking, and effort. That Gold wasn’t given to them, and they did not wake up One day to see the gold appear out of nowhere.
When the person you responded to speaks as he does, he trivializes the effort and the experiences of players that also pay to buy things on the gem store.
It is Not only the ones that pull the wallet and credit card out, that “pay” for gw2.
Gems can be “free” if you exchange in game Gold. Free meaning that it didn’t cost you any real world money. Time to farm the Gold cannot be argued the same as Cash, as this would be like comparing Strawberries to Bananas. The “value” of time is dependent on the person, but only in a personal sense, and not monetary. The “value” of money is static, as it’s a currency.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Two points Nerelith. Firstly, the gem store has always been “pay to look good”. They have to make their money on something and they decided on cosmetic and convenience items.
Secondly, if you now consider spending time online playing the game to be work, then you also consider things like dungeons armour to be paid armours. In fact all armours by this logic are paid for unless they give them to you for just logging on.
On F2P, B2P and P2P: GW1 proved they could do minimal cash shop and stay afloat on game sales.
On rewards: Yes I agree completely with the idea that something that can be bought is not really a reward. We may have a ton of skins in the game already, but they aren’t really giving us a reward reason to hype/play new content.
Instead of your friends telling you:
“Hey, come check out this new Dry Top place where you can work toward ninja armor!”
It’s:
“Hey come check out this new Dry Top place! Also you can buy this ninja costume with money or go back to wherever and farm champs to get it!”
It’s just not the same. Even if you save up gems before every LS update, is that really playing the new content for the new rewards?
Actually guild wars 1 did not prove anything.
Guild wars 1 relied on stand alone content. But here is the biggest difference between guild wars 1 and 2. Guild wars 1 was initially made with far less people when gw1 was released it was made with 65 vs 250 for guild wars 2. Even with those numbers the fact that they had to keep making standalones every 6 months is a testament to that.
All of that doesn’t include the difference in size and scale of guild wars 1 vs guild wars 2. Whenever you make this back sit estimate, always remember the ROI because why invest for 5 years building guild wars 2 if the ROI is terrible. I like to think that the amount of investment Ncsoft put into guild wars 2 at least to the point where they went from 65 to currently 300 employees wasn’t small.
The point when you made your comment you probably did not think it through, but why should I be shocked a lot of players on this forum are terrible at looking pass they own noses.
As u know im pro. ~Tomonobu Itagaki
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
Some economists have actually defined Currency as a form of concentrated effort over time. if you look at it that way, if I do dungeons for 4 Hours, and earn " Gold" that I transfer into gems, I am paying for those gems just as much as someone that bought their gems with cash.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
Some economists have actually defined Currency as a form of concentrated effort over time. if you look at it that way, if I do dungeons for 4 Hours, and earn " Gold" that I transfer into gems, I am paying for those gems just as much as someone that bought their gems with cash.
And if you did that, you got Gems for free. The 4 hours you spent still has no monetary value. You could make the argument only if Anet allowed us to exchange Gems for Cash. But we all know what happens when you do that <coughD3cough>.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
You can save coins in a bottle, though.
Now if I
Could save time
in a bottle…
Two points Nerelith. Firstly, the gem store has always been “pay to look good”. They have to make their money on something and they decided on cosmetic and convenience items.
Secondly, if you now consider spending time online playing the game to be work, then you also consider things like dungeons armour to be paid armours. In fact all armours by this logic are paid for unless they give them to you for just logging on.
Exactly. I feel any armor that doesn’t come out of a chest, or doesn’t drop… to be " earned" and " worked for."
If someone had to grind gold, or even dungeon tokens to then buy it it’s " earned" and " paid for" if it drops off a Mob, or comes out of a chest… ot a Loot bag, then it isn’t..it’s part of " play"
if someone grinds gold… it’s " earned" as much as if it’s payed for with cash.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
Some economists have actually defined Currency as a form of concentrated effort over time. if you look at it that way, if I do dungeons for 4 Hours, and earn " Gold" that I transfer into gems, I am paying for those gems just as much as someone that bought their gems with cash.
And if you did that, you got Gems for free. The 4 hours you spent still has no monetary value. You could make the argument only if Anet allowed us to exchange Gems for Cash. But we all know what happens when you do that <coughD3cough>.
You seem to be stuck On a Logic loop that says " A is B..A is B"
You can repeat yourself over and over, it doesn’t make you right. In YOUR Opinion, Gems obtained by trading for in game gold are “free” because you define free In a circular logical order. “Free” = " Does not cost real world money"
Your opinion may be internally consistent. That does Not mean that your opinion is fact.
Many other people also have opinions.
One of whom was a Noted Economist that calculated the GNP of Norrath. (The Virtual World on which EverQuest takes place.)
Edward Castronova – Indiana University Bloomington – Department of Telecommunications.
He calculated at the time that Norrath’s GNP was somewhere between Russia and Bulgaria.
In HIS opinion.. and I think he has a higher knowledge base to make one about Work and Time, and Money, and Value, effort in a game, has value, just as much as effort in “The real world” has value.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=294828
PS You cannot obtain Real World cash for Norrath’s gold. Not legitimately. But even so, whether you can or not, does not mean that effort in Norrath has or lacks value, it has value at least according to Edward Castronova. I think his opinion carries more weight than " anonymous voice on the internet."
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
I don’t think the problem is as much that there aren’t enough skins available from gameplay, but there aren’t enough specific enemies that drop specific skins. I mean, I remember going into Sorrow’s Furnace in the first GW and farming certain bosses for a specific skin and it felt so much more rewarding when you got what you were looking for.
As it stands now, it feels like there’s no real aim for any farming and good item drops are just something that happen randomly with no rhyme or reason.
This isn’t true, as the gw2 equivalent of Uniques are associated with enemies. However there is a great deal of randomness and a god-awful paucity of information on what exotics drop from what.
Here’s some examples:
1. Say you want a Flame weapon. Where do you hunt for it? It’s a Charr cultural weapon, so you find them in Ascalon. What drops it? Just about anything if you’re above level 34 – it’s a common Rare.
2. You see someone holding a kittening scythe, called Final Rest. Where do you get it? From the only critter that has it: the Shadow Behemoth.
3. Here’s a tougher one, and a cool one. Lord Taerne’s Shadow. What drops it? Chances are good, if you have one, you took it off of a Champion Spider.
4. The horrible looking greatsword Crystal Guardian – where would you get this? You look for a Branded champ.
4. You want to make a Corrupted Weapon, but that requires a lot of luck in finding a level 80 Etched weapon to start it. Where should you be hunting for it? I’ll let you guess this one.
I actually got crystal guardian from the ice elemental boss at the end of the dredge fractal. Took about half an hour to kill him cos of 1 person leaving the group. Funny thing is that the boss only aggroed onto me of all people.. guess he was really trying to give me that 15g sword I was just blind
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
Some economists have actually defined Currency as a form of concentrated effort over time. if you look at it that way, if I do dungeons for 4 Hours, and earn " Gold" that I transfer into gems, I am paying for those gems just as much as someone that bought their gems with cash.
And if you did that, you got Gems for free. The 4 hours you spent still has no monetary value. You could make the argument only if Anet allowed us to exchange Gems for Cash. But we all know what happens when you do that <coughD3cough>.
You seem to be stuck On a Logic loop that says " A is B..A is B"
You can repeat yourself over and over, it doesn’t make you right. In YOUR Opinion, Gems obtained by trading for in game gold are “free” because you define free In a circular logical order. “Free” = " Does not cost real world money"
Your opinion may be internally consistent. That does Not mean that your opinion is fact.
Many other people also have opinions.
One of whom was a Noted Economist that calculated the GNP of Norrath. (The Virtual World on which EverQuest takes place.)
Edward Castronova – Indiana University Bloomington – Department of Telecommunications.
He calculated at the time that Norrath’s GNP was somewhere between Russia and Bulgaria.In HIS opinion.. and I think he has a higher knowledge base to make one about Work and Time, and Money, and Value, effort in a game, has value, just as much as effort in “The real world” has value.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=294828
PS You cannot obtain Real World cash for Norrath’s gold. Not legitimately. But even so, whether you can or not, does not mean that effort in Norrath has or lacks value, it has value at least according to Edward Castronova. I think his opinion carries more weight than " anonymous voice on the internet."
That was indeed a good rebuttal. But we must go back to the facts here. Gems can cost either real world money, or in game Gold. Time is a factor in the accumulation of in game Gold. Time has “personal” value to the player, not a monetary one. There is no way you can attribute a monetary value to Time, unless it’s in the process of earning something of monetary value (i.e. a paycheck from a job).
So while you can make the argument that exchanging Gems costs the player’s Time to accumulate the necessary virtual currency to make the transaction, that exchange cost no real world money out of pocket. The exchange is Free, in a monetary sense.
We could have the eternal debate that Time = Money. But the flaws in this debate is that it’s only the perception of Time = Money, because one can hold Time as being valuable. This misconception leads people to then make the connection that Time = Valuable = Money.
As an example, say you work an 8 hour job that pays you $20/hour. If you decide to call in sick to play GW2 (assuming no paid sick leave), that means 8 hours of your Time was equal to $160. The Time now has a monetary value, because that’s what you could have potentially have made if you didn’t call in sick. So if you farmed all day long to exchange Gold for Gems, the argument then stands that yes the Gems were not free. This would be the only time that the argument could be made this way.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
If all the complainers don’t want to use their creditcards, they just have to realize that Gems are actually “FREE” when you exchange Gold. There are players here who never spent a single cent beyond the box price of this game, and yet have thousands of Gems.
Just like when I exchange $ for food, i get “FREE” food right?
The food is “FREE” when you use stamps, or other non-monetary currency. You can still buy food with your creditcard.
Your time( non-monetary currency) can be used to exchange for $, and subsequently, goods and services. Therefore, all these goods and services must be “FREE” because i used a non-monetary currency right?
Time is not a currency, so your argument fails in that respect.
Edit – As a preemptive strike, I’ll also say that time has no value at its core. Time has value when you work on a job, at which point you get currency. Unless you’re paid to play video games, you generally can’t treat time in that manner.
Some economists have actually defined Currency as a form of concentrated effort over time. if you look at it that way, if I do dungeons for 4 Hours, and earn " Gold" that I transfer into gems, I am paying for those gems just as much as someone that bought their gems with cash.
And if you did that, you got Gems for free. The 4 hours you spent still has no monetary value. You could make the argument only if Anet allowed us to exchange Gems for Cash. But we all know what happens when you do that <coughD3cough>.
You seem to be stuck On a Logic loop that says " A is B..A is B"
You can repeat yourself over and over, it doesn’t make you right. In YOUR Opinion, Gems obtained by trading for in game gold are “free” because you define free In a circular logical order. “Free” = " Does not cost real world money"
Your opinion may be internally consistent. That does Not mean that your opinion is fact.
Many other people also have opinions.
One of whom was a Noted Economist that calculated the GNP of Norrath. (The Virtual World on which EverQuest takes place.)
Edward Castronova – Indiana University Bloomington – Department of Telecommunications.
He calculated at the time that Norrath’s GNP was somewhere between Russia and Bulgaria.In HIS opinion.. and I think he has a higher knowledge base to make one about Work and Time, and Money, and Value, effort in a game, has value, just as much as effort in “The real world” has value.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=294828
PS You cannot obtain Real World cash for Norrath’s gold. Not legitimately. But even so, whether you can or not, does not mean that effort in Norrath has or lacks value, it has value at least according to Edward Castronova. I think his opinion carries more weight than " anonymous voice on the internet."
That was indeed a good rebuttal. But we must go back to the facts here. Gems can cost either real world money, or in game Gold. Time is a factor in the accumulation of in game Gold. Time has “personal” value to the player, not a monetary one. There is no way you can attribute a monetary value to Time, unless it’s in the process of earning something of monetary value (i.e. a paycheck from a job).
So while you can make the argument that exchanging Gems costs the player’s Time to accumulate the necessary virtual currency to make the transaction, that exchange cost no real world money out of pocket. The exchange is Free, in a monetary sense.
We could have the eternal debate that Time = Money. But the flaws in this debate is that it’s only the perception of Time = Money, because one can hold Time as being valuable. This misconception leads people to then make the connection that Time = Valuable = Money.
As an example, say you work an 8 hour job that pays you $20/hour. If you decide to call in sick to play GW2 (assuming no paid sick leave), that means 8 hours of your Time was equal to $160. The Time now has a monetary value, because that’s what you could have potentially have made if you didn’t call in sick. So if you farmed all day long to exchange Gold for Gems, the argument then stands that yes the Gems were not free. This would be the only time that the argument could be made this way.
Edward Castronova disagrees. And you are back to “A is B. A is B.”
This is your opinion. You can repeat it over and over, but repeating it over and over doesn’t make it fact.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
That was indeed a good rebuttal. But we must go back to the facts here. Gems can cost either real world money, or in game Gold. Time is a factor in the accumulation of in game Gold. Time has “personal” value to the player, not a monetary one. There is no way you can attribute a monetary value to Time, unless it’s in the process of earning something of monetary value (i.e. a paycheck from a job).
So while you can make the argument that exchanging Gems costs the player’s Time to accumulate the necessary virtual currency to make the transaction, that exchange cost no real world money out of pocket. The exchange is Free, in a monetary sense.
We could have the eternal debate that Time = Money. But the flaws in this debate is that it’s only the perception of Time = Money, because one can hold Time as being valuable. This misconception leads people to then make the connection that Time = Valuable = Money.
As an example, say you work an 8 hour job that pays you $20/hour. If you decide to call in sick to play GW2 (assuming no paid sick leave), that means 8 hours of your Time was equal to $160. The Time now has a monetary value, because that’s what you could have potentially have made if you didn’t call in sick. So if you farmed all day long to exchange Gold for Gems, the argument then stands that yes the Gems were not free. This would be the only time that the argument could be made this way.
Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.
from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money
however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?
its a matter of perspective in some respects.
but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.
the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.
ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.
For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.
In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.
Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.
from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money
however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?its a matter of perspective in some respects.
but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.
the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.
ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.
For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.
In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.
Ah, but again, the Time in question has no monetary value, unless it’s in the same place where opportunity allows you to convert that same Time into Money. Saving money by converting Gold to Gems does not then attach a monetary value to the Time it took to farm said Gold. I’m not here to say your time isn’t valuable, but rather your time is not worth any money. Again, the mistake is in the perception that Time = Valuable = Money. Ergo, converting Gold to Gems was a Free transaction. It’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C.
Onto Dusk. Dusk has no value per se. It’s a virtual item, that’s wholly owned by Anet. You’re not allowed to sell it for real money, just as you’re not allowed to buy it with real money. Value, in this sense, is dependent on the individual player. Do I value it for the Gold I can get from other players? Do I value it for the Legendary weapon I can craft with it? Do I value it as bragging rights that I have something others desire?
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.
from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money
however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?its a matter of perspective in some respects.
but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.
the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.
ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.
For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.
In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.
Ah, but again, the Time in question has no monetary value, unless it’s in the same place where opportunity allows you to convert that same Time into Money. Saving money by converting Gold to Gems does not then attach a monetary value to the Time it took to farm said Gold. I’m not here to say your time isn’t valuable, but rather your time is not worth any money. Again, the mistake is in the perception that Time = Valuable = Money. Ergo, converting Gold to Gems was a Free transaction. It’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C.
Onto Dusk. Dusk has no value per se. It’s a virtual item, that’s wholly owned by Anet. You’re not allowed to sell it for real money, just as you’re not allowed to buy it with real money. Value, in this sense, is dependent on the individual player. Do I value it for the Gold I can get from other players? Do I value it for the Legendary weapon I can craft with it? Do I value it as bragging rights that I have something others desire?
to put in a way that is less debatable, time has economic value. And economic value is what money is trying to represent.
but in this case, getting focused on the issue at hand, your time is definately money to anet. One of the products they sell players is your time.
so your anet has figured out how to turn your time =money
Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.
from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money
however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?its a matter of perspective in some respects.
but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.
the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.
ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.
For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.
In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.
Ah, but again, the Time in question has no monetary value, unless it’s in the same place where opportunity allows you to convert that same Time into Money. Saving money by converting Gold to Gems does not then attach a monetary value to the Time it took to farm said Gold. I’m not here to say your time isn’t valuable, but rather your time is not worth any money. Again, the mistake is in the perception that Time = Valuable = Money. Ergo, converting Gold to Gems was a Free transaction. It’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C.
Onto Dusk. Dusk has no value per se. It’s a virtual item, that’s wholly owned by Anet. You’re not allowed to sell it for real money, just as you’re not allowed to buy it with real money. Value, in this sense, is dependent on the individual player. Do I value it for the Gold I can get from other players? Do I value it for the Legendary weapon I can craft with it? Do I value it as bragging rights that I have something others desire?
A = B. A = B.
You are repeating your opinion. I understand your opinion, I happen to feel that some of your assumptions are faulty. We can agree to disagree, but it’s hard when you are going around declaring your opinion to be fact.
Someone with more economic knowledge than you has said that time and effort have monetary value. You disagree. Not the first time that someone says " My opinion is different than yours." the issue is, you are claming your opinions are fact.
You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.
PS: You are wrong you are allowed to buy dusk with real money. Just Think about it for a sec.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.
from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money
however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?its a matter of perspective in some respects.
but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.
the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.
ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.
For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.
In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.
Ah, but again, the Time in question has no monetary value, unless it’s in the same place where opportunity allows you to convert that same Time into Money. Saving money by converting Gold to Gems does not then attach a monetary value to the Time it took to farm said Gold. I’m not here to say your time isn’t valuable, but rather your time is not worth any money. Again, the mistake is in the perception that Time = Valuable = Money. Ergo, converting Gold to Gems was a Free transaction. It’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C.
Onto Dusk. Dusk has no value per se. It’s a virtual item, that’s wholly owned by Anet. You’re not allowed to sell it for real money, just as you’re not allowed to buy it with real money. Value, in this sense, is dependent on the individual player. Do I value it for the Gold I can get from other players? Do I value it for the Legendary weapon I can craft with it? Do I value it as bragging rights that I have something others desire?
A = B. A = B.
You are repeating your opinion. I understand your opinion, I happen to feel that some of your assumptions are faulty. We can agree to disagree, but it’s hard when you are going around declaring your opinion to be fact.
Someone with more economic knowledge than you has said that time and effort have monetary value. You disagree. Not the first time that someone says " My opinion is different than yours." the issue is, you are claming your opinions are fact.
You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.
PS: You are wrong you are allowed to buy dusk with real money. Just Think about it for a sec.
Again, it’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C. Dr. Castronova, as brilliant as he is, can easily make the argument that Time = Money. But as I’ve already debated and disproved this, that puts me on par with him. So I guess that’s a testament to my debate skills.
We’re talking about the perception of value. Time is valuable to all of us. We don’t live forever, so what finite lifespan we have, we should make the most of it. But again, just because I value my Time, doesn’t mean we can randomly assign a monetary value to it. One could argue that when we sleep, we’re losing money. One could argue that when we go to the bathroom, that’s losing money as well. But that’s silliness. We all know that there is no monetary value lost when sleeping or using the bathroom. Just as there’s no monetary value lost when we choose to farm for in-game Gold.
The argument about us saving money when converting Gold to Gems is a good one. Yes, you can indeed save money by converting Gold, rather than buying Gems outright. And for all the money you could save, you still can’t put a monetary value on the Time it took to farm. It’s not possible to say that the 8 hours I spend in Orr now has the equivalent value of buying 4,000 Gems. If you cherry pick which hours are assigned a monetary value, your whole argument is flawed to begin with.
In conclusion, Time can have a monetary value when it’s coupled with a money making opportunity (i.e. job). A = C only if that condition is met. Outside of that, converting Gold to Gems is free.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.
from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money
however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?its a matter of perspective in some respects.
but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.
the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.
ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.
For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.
In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.
Ah, but again, the Time in question has no monetary value, unless it’s in the same place where opportunity allows you to convert that same Time into Money. Saving money by converting Gold to Gems does not then attach a monetary value to the Time it took to farm said Gold. I’m not here to say your time isn’t valuable, but rather your time is not worth any money. Again, the mistake is in the perception that Time = Valuable = Money. Ergo, converting Gold to Gems was a Free transaction. It’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C.
Onto Dusk. Dusk has no value per se. It’s a virtual item, that’s wholly owned by Anet. You’re not allowed to sell it for real money, just as you’re not allowed to buy it with real money. Value, in this sense, is dependent on the individual player. Do I value it for the Gold I can get from other players? Do I value it for the Legendary weapon I can craft with it? Do I value it as bragging rights that I have something others desire?
A = B. A = B.
You are repeating your opinion. I understand your opinion, I happen to feel that some of your assumptions are faulty. We can agree to disagree, but it’s hard when you are going around declaring your opinion to be fact.
Someone with more economic knowledge than you has said that time and effort have monetary value. You disagree. Not the first time that someone says " My opinion is different than yours." the issue is, you are claming your opinions are fact.
You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.
PS: You are wrong you are allowed to buy dusk with real money. Just Think about it for a sec.
Again, it’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C. Dr. Castronova, as brilliant as he is, can easily make the argument that Time = Money. But as I’ve already debated and disproved this, that puts me on par with him. So I guess that’s a testament to my debate skills.
You have not proven anything except that you feel your opinions are facts. Repeating that you are better able to discuss economics in a Virtual setting than a peer-revued scholar that put his reputation on the line, while you are an anonymous voice on the internet did make me smile.
We have to agree to disagree, as our opinions don’t match.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
You two are arguing two points that are not exclusive. The paper that Nerelith cited derives the value of ingame PP (thus time)from the black market trade of items and accounts on sites like ebay. The premise being that real money, which is representative of economic value, was changing hands on a consistent basis, thus giving economic value to the digital goods and their methods of acquisition.
Smooth Penguin is speaking from the perspective of the individual player in which their “time” cannot be distilled down to a simple number and thus labeled as “worthwhile” or not. That “value of time” in terms of satisfaction is completely subjective and can only be determined if the player themselves and not by a market. Only at the point where the player chooses to engage in economic activity does a “value” exist.
As for losing money when using the bathroom, as a individual you are not, but from a company’s perspective you are. The idea is not silly, if you aren’t working you are not producing, which is a waste of man hours. The basics of opportunity cost can be applied to any activity. This is why breaks are highly regulated and legally mandated in certain fields, because if they weren’t employer’s used to not give breaks due to the loss of production. Which is where Nerelith is arguing from.
A macro and averages perspective that in the aggregate gold (and thus time spent farming that gold) has a real life cash value because the gold sellers/gem conversions exist. From this the assumption is that the prices set by those gold sellers (or anet) is determined by what the market in aggregate will bear which is the cash value of gold and thus time in game. However this does not speak to how an individual values their time in terms of satisfaction, only how the average decisions of all the players engaging in economic activity value their time in terms of cash and gold.
You two are speaking from non exclusive points and saying each is right, while both positions are valid.
[ICoa] Blackgate
(edited by dodgycookies.4562)
id way rather be able to buy weapon skins/armor then having the option to grind for something and never even get it
Tybstra| Everything Purple [EP] | Maguuma
You two are arguing two points that are not exclusive. The paper that Nerelith cited derives the value of ingame PP (thus time)from the black market trade of items and accounts on sites like ebay. The premise being that real money, which is representative of economic value, was changing hands on a consistent basis, thus giving economic value to the digital goods and their methods of acquisition.
Smooth Penguin is speaking from the perspective of the individual player in which their “time” cannot be distilled down to a simple number and thus labeled as “worthwhile” or not. That “value of time” in terms of satisfaction is completely subjective and can only be determined if the player themselves and not by a market. Only at the point where the player chooses to engage in economic activity does a “value” exist.
As for losing money when using the bathroom, as a individual you are not, but from a company’s perspective you are. The idea is not silly, if you aren’t working you are not producing, which is a waste of man hours. The basics of opportunity cost can be applied to any activity. This is why breaks are highly regulated and legally mandated in certain fields, because if they weren’t employer’s used to not give breaks due to the loss of production. Which is where Nerelith is arguing from.
A macro and averages perspective that in the aggregate gold (and thus time spent farming that gold) has a real life cash value because the gold sellers/gem conversions exist. From this the assumption is that the prices set by those gold sellers (or anet) is determined by what the market in aggregate will bear which is the cash value of gold and thus time in game. However this does not speak to how an individual values their time in terms of satisfaction, only how the average decisions of all the players engaging in economic activity value their time in terms of cash and gold.
You two are speaking from non exclusive points and saying each is right, while both positions are valid.
My point is, even if there were no black market, then time and effort in game has economic monetary value, especially since in-game-gold can be exchanged for Gems, which can then be exchanged for virtual goods and services, that have a real world value.
I do not buy and sell gems anymore so please excuse me if the amounts I use are not accurate.
If I can buy 100 gems for 12 gold, and then I can also buy those 100 gems, for $7 USD. Then the effort I put Into acquiring that 12 gold = $7 USD, even if there is no black market for the exchange of gold to cash. Because I can use the gems I acquire with in game gold, to buy $7 worth of Virtual goods or services.
We need to remember back when Castronova wrote his paper, there was no “Gem store” or " cash shop". The value back THEN was from the potential, to exchange in game gold for real world cash in the black market.
Today there is the exchange of in game gold, for gems, which can then be used to purchase Virtual Goods and services.
Imagine you come into a restaurant, and sweep up before the reastaurant opens, and the deal you worked out with the owner is, that in exchange you get to order Breakfast off the menu… Up to say $10 worth of food.
is your labor, not then worth $10 …even if you never get any cash?
How is this not the same in Gw2?
Our positions are mutually exclusive since he says that if a player bought 100 gems with gold he got the gems free. I am saying that the time and effort that were put into acquiring that gold cost was work. The price he was paid by ArenaNet was the amount of cash it would take to buy the gems if it had been purchased with cash.
The Player that bought the 100 gems with cash paid for them with cash, the player that bought the 100 gems with gold, bought them with work. They were not free.
It seems to me that Smooth Penguin does not believe Virtual Goods and Services have a real world value.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
Anything earned while playing a video game (gold) is “free” from a real world perspective because you have already decided to throw away opportunity to earn and instead use your time on a purely recreational activity (gaming).
As such, anything earned in game (gold) that is used as a substitute for a currency with an actual value (real life money) is “free” in the sense that you were able to convert valueless time into valuable time by trading a worthless currency for something that normally requires a valuable currency.
Gem store items purchased with cash are not free as they require you to expend resources that have already been earned.
Gem store items purchased with gold are “free” as they require you to expend no resources that have not already been expended on profitless endeavors (gaming). They are a gift to you for your time spent.
Server: Devona’s Rest
Anything earned while playing a video game (gold) is “free” from a real world perspective because you have already decided to throw away opportunity to earn and instead use your time on a purely recreational activity (gaming).
As such, anything earned in game (gold) that is used as a substitute for a currency with an actual value (real life money) is “free” in the sense that you were able to convert valueless time into valuable time by trading a worthless currency for something that normally requires a valuable currency.
Gem store items purchased with cash are not free as they require you to expend resources that have already been earned.
Gem store items purchased with gold are “free” as they require you to expend no resources that have not already been expended on profitless endeavors (gaming). They are a gift to you for your time spent.
Your opinion not fact. My opinion is that the only time anything in gw2 is free is if someone gives it to you as a gift. If you " farmed" or" did dungeons" or " did Champions" etc… and said time accrued Gold, which you then converted to gems, and with which you purchased something that can be puchased for real world cash, you have earned the real world cash it would have taken to purchase the virtual goods an services you purchased with in game gold.
Free means with no effort. When you play the game you are not " making zero effort." Free means a gift. means you logged in, and did nothing, and someone just walked up to you and handed it to you.
THAT is free. In my opinion, if you put effort, even into an MMO, and then use the fruit of thjat effort…in game gold, and exchange it for gems, and then use the gems to buy things that could be purchased for real world dollars, then the effort it took, is = to the real world dollars it would have taken.
So no… when you convert in game gold to gems, and use the gems to buy virtual goods and services, the virtual goods and services you purchased were not free.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Anything earned while playing a video game (gold) is “free” from a real world perspective because you have already decided to throw away opportunity to earn and instead use your time on a purely recreational activity (gaming).
As such, anything earned in game (gold) that is used as a substitute for a currency with an actual value (real life money) is “free” in the sense that you were able to convert valueless time into valuable time by trading a worthless currency for something that normally requires a valuable currency.
Gem store items purchased with cash are not free as they require you to expend resources that have already been earned.
Gem store items purchased with gold are “free” as they require you to expend no resources that have not already been expended on profitless endeavors (gaming). They are a gift to you for your time spent.
Your opinion not fact. My opinion is that the only time anything in gw2 is free is if someone gives it to you as a gift. If you " farmed" or" did dungeons" or " did Champions" etc… and said time accrued Gold, which you then converted to gems, and with which you purchased something that can be puchased for real world cash, you have earned the real world cash it would have taken to purchase the virtual goods an services you purchased with in game gold.
Free means with no effort. When you play the game you are not " making zero effort." Free means a gift. means you logged in, and did nothing, and someone just walked up to you and handed it to you.
THAT is free. In my opinion, if you put effort, even into an MMO, and then use the fruit of thjat effort…in game gold, and exchange it for gems, and then use the gems to buy things that could be purchased for real world dollars, then the effort it took, is = to the real world dollars it would have taken.
So no… when you convert in game gold to gems, and use the gems to buy virtual goods and services, the virtual goods and services you purchased were not free.
My “opinion” above is my attempt to explain abstract economic principles to the thread since it has been derailed by an uninformed discussion of these principles.
As that explanation appears to be above your head, I don’t think there is anything else I can do here other than request that you reread it with a more open mind.
Sorry :\
EDIT: I decided to attempt to do one more explanation.
When you chose to spend your time playing a video game, your time lost its value. Anything that has value that you are able to acquire (including an offset to an expense) using your valueless time is not a reward for effort, nor is it earned since your time has no value. It is, for our purposes, “free” in that you were given something of value while expending your time on an activity that has no value.
If my electric company told me that going forward, they will no longer charge me money for the time I am asleep, the offset to my electric bill would be “free” because I did nothing to earn it.
The exact same thing applies here. ArenaNet is giving you an offset to your “electric bill” (i.e. a discount towards gem store items by using gold) simply because you are asleep (spending your time on valueless activities such as being logged into the game).
Gold, when used to acquire a discount at the gem store, is “free” because it is acquired with time that has no value.
Server: Devona’s Rest
(edited by mtpelion.4562)
(…) So no… when you convert in game gold to gems, and use the gems to buy virtual goods and services, the virtual goods and services you purchased were not free.
In that case … nothing in sub based games is free.
You pay up front to access the content. Then you have to follow “path Z” – spend your time there, earn tokens – or reputation, or ingame gold – exchange that for your reward – shiny X.
It’s actually very similar.
You don’t pay up front. You do whatever you want or what is considered the most effective depending on your taste – you earn in-game gold or other currencies which you can convert into gold, then exchange that for gems and chose your reward – shiny X.
OR as an additional option only available here and not in sub based games – whip out your credit card.
Of course I would love more of an actual adventure around obtaining “items”. I love my molten gloves, they felt the most satisfying for me.
I just don’t understand the notion of this being a rip off.
“Whose Kitten is this?” – “It’s a Charr baby.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
Your opinion not fact. My opinion is that the only time anything in gw2 is free is if someone gives it to you as a gift. If you " farmed" or" did dungeons" or " did Champions" etc… and said time accrued Gold, which you then converted to gems, and with which you purchased something that can be puchased for real world cash, you have earned the real world cash it would have taken to purchase the virtual goods an services you purchased with in game gold.
Let’s say I play dungeons because I enjoy dungeons, I’m not grinding anything. Therefore I put time into dungeons as a recreational activity that I am enjoying, and happen to get gold out of it, which can then be converted into gems. This means that by enjoying the game at my own pace doing whatever it is that I want, I am being compensated real dollars that I now no longer have to spend to get fancy items off the gem store. That, to me, is free compensation for my time that enables me to better enjoy my time in-game, or in other words a gift like mtpelion stated.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
id way rather be able to buy weapon skins/armor then having the option to grind for something and never even get it
^ Very much this.
You get that from the good ole sub-based games. Anet has to keep paying the rent, so the Gem Store is what we get.
And lol to that .. can’t count how many times i did some dungeons those games and never ever got the items i wanted, and if it drops somebody else had again the higher roll .. or i was in with the “wrong class” and had no right to roll for it.
EVERY MMO is awesome until it is released then its unfinished. A month after release it just sucks.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.
Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.
from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money
however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?its a matter of perspective in some respects.
but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.
the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.
ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.
For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.
In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.
Ah, but again, the Time in question has no monetary value, unless it’s in the same place where opportunity allows you to convert that same Time into Money. Saving money by converting Gold to Gems does not then attach a monetary value to the Time it took to farm said Gold. I’m not here to say your time isn’t valuable, but rather your time is not worth any money. Again, the mistake is in the perception that Time = Valuable = Money. Ergo, converting Gold to Gems was a Free transaction. It’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C.
Onto Dusk. Dusk has no value per se. It’s a virtual item, that’s wholly owned by Anet. You’re not allowed to sell it for real money, just as you’re not allowed to buy it with real money. Value, in this sense, is dependent on the individual player. Do I value it for the Gold I can get from other players? Do I value it for the Legendary weapon I can craft with it? Do I value it as bragging rights that I have something others desire?
A = B. A = B.
You are repeating your opinion. I understand your opinion, I happen to feel that some of your assumptions are faulty. We can agree to disagree, but it’s hard when you are going around declaring your opinion to be fact.
Someone with more economic knowledge than you has said that time and effort have monetary value. You disagree. Not the first time that someone says " My opinion is different than yours." the issue is, you are claming your opinions are fact.
You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.
PS: You are wrong you are allowed to buy dusk with real money. Just Think about it for a sec.
Again, it’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C. Dr. Castronova, as brilliant as he is, can easily make the argument that Time = Money. But as I’ve already debated and disproved this, that puts me on par with him. So I guess that’s a testament to my debate skills.
We’re talking about the perception of value. Time is valuable to all of us. We don’t live forever, so what finite lifespan we have, we should make the most of it. But again, just because I value my Time, doesn’t mean we can randomly assign a monetary value to it. One could argue that when we sleep, we’re losing money. One could argue that when we go to the bathroom, that’s losing money as well. But that’s silliness. We all know that there is no monetary value lost when sleeping or using the bathroom. Just as there’s no monetary value lost when we choose to farm for in-game Gold.
The argument about us saving money when converting Gold to Gems is a good one. Yes, you can indeed save money by converting Gold, rather than buying Gems outright. And for all the money you could save, you still can’t put a monetary value on the Time it took to farm. It’s not possible to say that the 8 hours I spend in Orr now has the equivalent value of buying 4,000 Gems. If you cherry pick which hours are assigned a monetary value, your whole argument is flawed to begin with.
In conclusion, Time can have a monetary value when it’s coupled with a money making opportunity (i.e. job). A = C only if that condition is met. Outside of that, converting Gold to Gems is free.
just got to point this out very simply,
mathematically
a=b b=c therefor a=c
is in fact a hard mathematic rule. Now its possible that this situation is not representitive of that relationship, but if it is.
that essentially proves that a=c
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/602836/transitive-law
there is no opinion involved in this, its a mathematic postulate/law
Your opinion not fact. My opinion is that the only time anything in gw2 is free is if someone gives it to you as a gift. If you " farmed" or" did dungeons" or " did Champions" etc… and said time accrued Gold, which you then converted to gems, and with which you purchased something that can be puchased for real world cash, you have earned the real world cash it would have taken to purchase the virtual goods an services you purchased with in game gold.
Let’s say I play dungeons because I enjoy dungeons, I’m not grinding anything. Therefore I put time into dungeons as a recreational activity that I am enjoying, and happen to get gold out of it, which can then be converted into gems. This means that by enjoying the game at my own pace doing whatever it is that I want, I am being compensated real dollars that I now no longer have to spend to get fancy items off the gem store. That, to me, is free compensation for my time that enables me to better enjoy my time in-game, or in other words a gift like mtpelion stated.
so what you are saying is that if you enjoy your job, it is no longer a job, and has no value? hmm, i know people see things this way, but the fact that people do is what allows business men to profit. but ehh thats life