Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

I’m getting you didn’t bother to read the User Agreement. Here’s the part that supports my arguments:

4. ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT
(d) Gems
(vii) You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Gems, that Gems are not personal property, that the quantity of Gems in Your Account may be increased or decreased by NCSOFT in its sole and absolute discretion for any reason or no reason whatsoever, that You have no right to a refund related to Gems, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Gems, and that NCSOFT may limit Your license to use Gems with respect to any Item, service, Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Gems, as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCSOFT, may be applicable if, and when, Gems are made available to You or thereafter. NCSOFT may restrict the award or use of Gems based on Your country of residence or other factors.

You agreed to these terms as well. So in essence, you’re arguing with yourself.

go to legal school and find out what a user agreement actually means.

I did! Though I changed my degree from law to business. So are we now comparing educational backgrounds to determine if your opinions are more reliable than my facts?

no im just hoping you realize that contracts dont change reality, and dont even guarantee you will win a case. but even more of that you would hopefully realize that a contract is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The agreement that you had to agree to specifies that digital materials are owned by Anet, and have no value. It’s very relevant in countering your opinions with facts. The User Agreement doesn’t care if you personally believe that the items have value or not. The only thing that matters is that in this game, we pay for the privilege to access the content. Anet offers us Entertainment Value for everything we do in game. That is the reality at hand, and trumps any personally held beliefs and opinions you have on what has monetary value.

Obtena.7952:

I’m still waiting for my time to magically turn into money … I hope I don’t have to wait as long as Van Gogh did.

Ask and je shall receive!

phys.7689:

i said the best way for them to make money would be for you to do gems, but if all of you stop buying gems with real money it would solve itself, because then the exchange would be bankrupt, and no items would be generated except by cash.

the system is designed well, it corrects itself. Anet will be paid for every single gem store item that comes into the game one way or another, and they will be paid a premium for those that choose the gold route

Wrong again. If you purchase a Gem Store item with Gems converted from in-game Gold, Anet makes no money. The revenue is generated from Gem sales. If I buy 10,000 Gems with my creditcard, and MT converts 10,000 Gems with his Gold, I’m the one the stockholders will be happy with. Why? Because I deposited real money into a real business with real costs and real investors. MT spent his own Time to farm the Gold for 10,000 Gems. His Time, while very valuable to him and him alone, has no monetary value.

Rouven.7409:

phys.7689:

i said the best way for them to make money would be for you to do gems, but if all of you stop buying gems with real money it would solve itself, because then the exchange would be bankrupt, and no items would be generated except by cash.

the system is designed well, it corrects itself.

There is a “finite” amount of gems (edit: available for the exchange as per John a long time ago) and according to that the price will vary. If we stop buying gems with real money AND then exchanging them for gold the system would not go bankrupt, the price in gold for gems would rise astronomically so that no one is able to buy the last remaining gems.

In the case of a currency exchange bankruptcy can happen if either currency runs out. Aka when the gems run out people can’t buy them with gold. Which means anet gotta get paid for every gem store item one way or another

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

i said the best way for them to make money would be for you to do gems, but if all of you stop buying gems with real money it would solve itself, because then the exchange would be bankrupt, and no items would be generated except by cash.

the system is designed well, it corrects itself. Anet will be paid for every single gem store item that comes into the game one way or another, and they will be paid a premium for those that choose the gold route

Wrong again. If you purchase a Gem Store item with Gems converted from in-game Gold, Anet makes no money. The revenue is generated from Gem sales. If I buy 10,000 Gems with my creditcard, and MT converts 10,000 Gems with his Gold, I’m the one the stockholders will be happy with. Why? Because I deposited real money into a real business with real costs and real investors. MT spent his own Time to farm the Gold for 10,000 Gems. His Time, while very valuable to him and him alone, has no monetary value.

As long as you don’t understand monetary values, it will continue to elude you.

Just trust that anet gets paid for every gem store item created in the game one way or the other.

phys.7689:

As long as you don’t understand monetary values, it will continue to elude you.

Just trust that anet gets paid for every gem store item created in the game one way or the other.

As long as you don’t understand how MMO microtransactions work, you’ll keep assuming you’re correct. I can already tell that you’re misunderstanding how the Gem Exchange works in the first place. But take it from experts like me, who actually have a grasp on things like this. Gems have no monetary value, no matter how much you “think” there is.

Edit – To help you understand a bit more, I’ll simplify it. There are two (2) types of customers. Paying and non-paying. Paying customers are the ones who buy Gems, and bring in revenue to the company. Non-paying customers are ones who paid for the box price of the game, and exchange Gold for Gems for free when they can. The revenue the Non-paying customers brought in stopped at the moment they paid for the box.

Dahkeus.8243:

Corpus Christi.2057:

Zypher.7609:

Corpus Christi.2057:

Zypher.7609:

infantrydivEU.9670:

What happened to doing a cool quest line or killing a difficult boss to get a weapon skin in games?

Cool go buy Teq weapons.

That’s a lot to choose from, hahaha.

Alright ill bite since I have to work for another two hours before playing, here are a few more.

Dungeon armor/weapons.. (there are a few of these)
Triple wurm skins
PvP skins since you can not buy the skins.

Are you falling asleep during your work?

The topic is precisely about “new skins”. Dungeon/PvP skins have been there since the beginning. Teq/Wurm skins are the only additions, hence my sarcasm above.

I agree that we haven’t seen much in a while, but you’re missing quite a bit of stuff:

http://dulfy.net/2014/03/18/gw2-mistforged-hero-weapon-skins-gallery/

http://dulfy.net/2013/10/01/gw2-twilight-assault-weapon-skins/

http://dulfy.net/2013/09/03/gw2-ascended-weapon-skins-gallery/

http://dulfy.net/2013/08/06/gw2-champion-weapon-skins/

http://dulfy.net/2013/08/06/gw2-sovereign-weapon-skins-gallery/

http://dulfy.net/2013/07/23/gw2-aetherized-weapon-skins-gallery/

http://dulfy.net/2013/07/08/gw2-zenith-weapon-gallery/

http://dulfy.net/2013/07/08/gw2-radiant-and-hellfire-armor-skin-gallery/

Ascended Armor

and I’m probably missing a lot of stuff.

Should more of the items come from game drops instead of being gem store purchases? Sure, but the game has to stay funded somehow. It would be nice to see the source for these be as specific as a single quest/boss instead of a general area of the game though.

There is also all the new Exotic weapons they added with the champion revamp patch in Queens Jubilee. At least 34; http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_loot_bag

Many of them are also some of the best skins in the game, Cobalt, Rapier, Monsoon, Genesis.

And then when you add to the fact, that all the things in the gem store can be aquired for free by merely trading your gold for gems. Many of my guildies have never spend a dime in the gem store but still got a lot of exclusive gem store weapons and armor just from trading their gold.

phys.7689:

incorrect, they charge a tax.
so in fact lets say item costs 100 gems to come into creation in the game.
100 gems costs 11 g 82 s to buy.
but the market value of gold is
1 g costs 0.15 USD to buy through gems.
so if you multiply 11.82 × .15 you get
1.77
so that item you buy with gold->gems-> gives anet 1.77 $
the item you buy with cash gives anet 1.25$
so essentially you would spend 1.77 to buy gold then turn it to gems, then buy the item
versus spending 1.25 to buy the item.

Gems are only purchased once. In your example, you are double counting the purchase of the gems to reach an incorrect higher price for gem store items. The gem store item price in REAL dollars NEVER CHANGES no matter how many times you trade your fake currencies back and forth. Someone paid for the gems with real cash, and that amount of real money does not go up no matter how far down the amount of fake money you have goes.

All you are doing is trading a larger and larger amount of fake currency for a smaller and smaller amount of another fake currency that was already paid for by someone else.

So no, ArenaNet does not make more money off of gold to gem people because the gems the gold to gem people are getting were already paid for by someone else. No new real world money is given to ArenaNet as the result of each exchange.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

incorrect, they charge a tax.
so in fact lets say item costs 100 gems to come into creation in the game.
100 gems costs 11 g 82 s to buy.
but the market value of gold is
1 g costs 0.15 USD to buy through gems.
so if you multiply 11.82 × .15 you get
1.77
so that item you buy with gold->gems-> gives anet 1.77 $
the item you buy with cash gives anet 1.25$
so essentially you would spend 1.77 to buy gold then turn it to gems, then buy the item
versus spending 1.25 to buy the item.

Gems are only purchased once. In your example, you are double counting the purchase of the gems to reach an incorrect higher price for gem store items. The gem store item price in REAL dollars NEVER CHANGES no matter how many times you trade your fake currencies back and forth. Someone paid for the gems with real cash, and that amount of real money does not go up no matter how far down the amount of fake money you have goes.

All you are doing is trading a larger and larger amount of fake currency for a smaller and smaller amount of another fake currency that was already paid for by someone else.

So no, ArenaNet does not make more money off of gold to gem people because the gems the gold to gem people are getting were already paid for by someone else. No new real world money is given to ArenaNet as the result of each exchange.

dude, it has nothing to do with real or fake currency.
its has to do with conversions and the tax withing the conversion.

let me illustrate this more carefully.
the only way in which gems are created, is via someone trading cash for gems.
every single gem store item must be obtained with gems.
gold→gem traders are not creating gems, they are trading for them.
gem→gold buyers are trading for gold, not creating gold.

there is a tax on this trade.

so. lets look at the item that is purchased with gems, and trace the paper trail to see how much money must be paid to anet, to bring this item into existence.
i will use all the current actual values for this illustration as cited here
http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

for sake of simplicity, lets assume the item is 100 gems in cost, its a top hat.
playerA wants a top hat, he trades in his gold for gems.
“100 gems costs 12 g 61 s to buy.”
so he trades 12 gold and 61s to AnettradeBankerMan for 100 gems he gets top hat
but, now AnettradeBankerMan now has 12 gold 61 silver in he can now sell to Player B who wants gold. (note without player A trading, he wouldnt have this gold to sell)

So how much money can he get from Player B for his newly stocked gold?
“1 g costs 0.14 USD to buy through gems.”
he can get 14 cents for every gold, by multiplication we can now see how much was paid to anet corporation in order for this top hat to come into existence.

.14 times 12.61 = 1.76$

so yes the item is paid for by player B, but player B is essentially paying more to bring the same item into existence compared to if he had bought it direct, for 1.25 because of the taxes on gold/gem conversion.

realize that the player who buys gold, is actually trading with another player (through anet currnency exchange) since anet takes a tax, the items created through this trade actually cost more.
just follow the money if you dont believe me.
pick any item, see how much gold must be traded to anet to bring the item into existence, then see how much anet can sell that gold to a different player for. that shows you how much money anet made off that item.

phys.7689:

dude, it has nothing to do with real or fake currency.
its has to do with conversions and the tax withing the conversion.

let me illustrate this more carefully.
the only way in which gems are created, is via someone trading cash for gems.
every single gem store item must be obtained with gems.
gold->gem traders are not creating gems, they are trading for them.
gem->gold buyers are trading for gold, not creating gold.

there is a tax on this trade.

so. lets look at the item that is purchased with gems, and trace the paper trail to see how much money must be paid to anet, to bring this item into existence.
i will use all the current actual values for this illustration as cited here
http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

for sake of simplicity, lets assume the item is 100 gems in cost, its a top hat.
playerA wants a top hat, he trades in his gold for gems.
“100 gems costs 12 g 61 s to buy.”
so he trades 12 gold and 61s to AnettradeBankerMan for 100 gems he gets top hat
but, now AnettradeBankerMan now has 12 gold 61 silver in he can now sell to Player B who wants gold. (note without player A trading, he wouldnt have this gold to sell)

So how much money can he get from Player B for his newly stocked gold?
“1 g costs 0.14 USD to buy through gems.”
he can get 14 cents for every gold, by multiplication we can now see how much was paid to anet corporation in order for this top hat to come into existence.

.14 times 12.61 = 1.76$

so yes the item is paid for by player B, but player B is essentially paying more to bring the same item into existence compared to if he had bought it direct, for 1.25 because of the taxes on gold/gem conversion.

realize that the player who buys gold, is actually trading with another player (through anet currnency exchange) since anet takes a tax, the items created through this trade actually cost more.
just follow the money if you dont believe me.
pick any item, see how much gold must be traded to anet to bring the item into existence, then see how much anet can sell that gold to a different player for. that shows you how much money anet made off that item.

The amount of money ArenaNet makes is exclusively based on the number of gems purchased, not on what was spent in the gem store.

Every single gem store transaction is 100% irrelevant because they are made with currencies that have no value.

Only the initial purchase of gems nets ArenaNet any actual currency, how you use those gems once they are purchased is of no concern whatsoever.

You’re doing a bunch of math that means nothing because you’ve missed the main point. Anything times gold or anything times gems is always equal to 0 because they have no value, just as everything you can purchase in the gem store has no value.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

dude, it has nothing to do with real or fake currency.
its has to do with conversions and the tax withing the conversion.

let me illustrate this more carefully.
the only way in which gems are created, is via someone trading cash for gems.
every single gem store item must be obtained with gems.
gold->gem traders are not creating gems, they are trading for them.
gem->gold buyers are trading for gold, not creating gold.

there is a tax on this trade.

so. lets look at the item that is purchased with gems, and trace the paper trail to see how much money must be paid to anet, to bring this item into existence.
i will use all the current actual values for this illustration as cited here
http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

for sake of simplicity, lets assume the item is 100 gems in cost, its a top hat.
playerA wants a top hat, he trades in his gold for gems.
“100 gems costs 12 g 61 s to buy.”
so he trades 12 gold and 61s to AnettradeBankerMan for 100 gems he gets top hat
but, now AnettradeBankerMan now has 12 gold 61 silver in he can now sell to Player B who wants gold. (note without player A trading, he wouldnt have this gold to sell)

So how much money can he get from Player B for his newly stocked gold?
“1 g costs 0.14 USD to buy through gems.”
he can get 14 cents for every gold, by multiplication we can now see how much was paid to anet corporation in order for this top hat to come into existence.

.14 times 12.61 = 1.76$

so yes the item is paid for by player B, but player B is essentially paying more to bring the same item into existence compared to if he had bought it direct, for 1.25 because of the taxes on gold/gem conversion.

realize that the player who buys gold, is actually trading with another player (through anet currnency exchange) since anet takes a tax, the items created through this trade actually cost more.
just follow the money if you dont believe me.
pick any item, see how much gold must be traded to anet to bring the item into existence, then see how much anet can sell that gold to a different player for. that shows you how much money anet made off that item.

The amount of money ArenaNet makes is exclusively based on the number of gems purchased, not on what was spent in the gem store.

Every single gem store transaction is 100% irrelevant because they are made with currencies that have no value.

Only the initial purchase of gems nets ArenaNet any actual currency, how you use those gems once they are purchased is of no concern whatsoever.

You’re doing a bunch of math that means nothing because you’ve missed the main point. Anything times gold or anything times gems is always equal to 0 because they have no value, just as everything you can purchase in the gem store has no value.

Wow. you guys. really dont get it.
it doesnt matter if gems or gold is real or fake pretend, all that matters is that people are willing to pay money for it.
thats all that matters, people are willing to pay money for it.
if a company can sell paper clips for 14 cents, that means every paperclip is worth 14 cents.

anet is essentially giving players store credit in exchange for paper clips at a value of 10 cents, and selling the paper clips to customers at a value of 14 cents.

it doesnt matter if paper clips arent real money, all that matters is someone is willing to pay for it.

kitten , now i see why so many people get ripped off, you throw some pointless conversion factors, and they can no longer see what prices mean.

So some of you actually believe that GEMS are some sort of commodity that is traded like RL gold? How quaint…..(and seriously delusional).

Brother Grimm.5176:

So some of you actually believe that GEMS are some sort of commodity that is traded like RL gold? How quaint…..(and seriously delusional).

gems, are just a conversion factor, and means of saying store credit.
you could totally remove gems from the entire process, and call gold to gems gold to store credit.
people need to forget about gems as something special, gems is store credit.

phys.7689:

Wow. you guys. really dont get it.
it doesnt matter if gems or gold is real or fake pretend, all that matters is that people are willing to pay money for it.
thats all that matters, people are willing to pay money for it.
if a company can sell paper clips for 14 cents, that means every paperclip is worth 14 cents.

anet is essentially giving players store credit in exchange for paper clips at a value of 10 cents, and selling the paper clips to customers at a value of 14 cents.

it doesnt matter if paper clips arent real money, all that matters is someone is willing to pay for it.

kitten , now i see why so many people get ripped off, you throw some pointless conversion factors, and they can no longer see what prices mean.

If I sell 100 paperclips at $0.14 each to customer A, I make $14.00.

If customer A trades 10 of his paperclips with customer B for 6 staples, I make no additional money. Ergo, the conversion rate of staples to paperclips (gold to gems) does not change the amount of money I make.

Now, if the conversion rate of staples to paperclips gets really high, it may incentivize people to buy more paperclips from me, but I still only make money when people BUY paperclips with real money and NEVER when people trade staples and paperclips back and forth.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

Wow. you guys. really dont get it.
it doesnt matter if gems or gold is real or fake pretend, all that matters is that people are willing to pay money for it.
thats all that matters, people are willing to pay money for it.
if a company can sell paper clips for 14 cents, that means every paperclip is worth 14 cents.

anet is essentially giving players store credit in exchange for paper clips at a value of 10 cents, and selling the paper clips to customers at a value of 14 cents.

it doesnt matter if paper clips arent real money, all that matters is someone is willing to pay for it.

kitten , now i see why so many people get ripped off, you throw some pointless conversion factors, and they can no longer see what prices mean.

If I sell 100 paperclips at $0.14 each to customer A, I make $14.00.

If customer A trades 10 of his paperclips with customer B for 6 staples, I make no additional money. Ergo, the conversion rate of staples to paperclips (gold to gems) does not change the amount of money I make.

Now, if the conversion rate of staples to paperclips gets really high, it may incentivize people to buy more paperclips from me, but I still only make money when people BUY paperclips with real money and NEVER when people trade staples and paperclips back and forth.

first remove gems from your whole mental model, gems are store credit, you may as well think of them as dollars in store credit.

now according to your example, it would only be a good analogy if the store also sells staples.

let me put this to you without gems, gems are irrelevant.

arena net sells items in their store
some people dont want the items in their store, they want paperclips
arenanet tells people they will accept paperclips as payment for the items in their store, at a trade in value of 10 cents for store credit.
arenanet sells paperclips to people who didnt want their other items for 14 cents.

every item a paperclip buyer buys, is giving anet more money overall, than if the normal cash buying customer had bought it.

forget the gems, it messes with peoples minds, its just a conversion factor for money, and a way of saying store credit.

phys.7689:

first remove gems from your whole mental model, gems are store credit, you may as well think of them as dollars in store credit.

now according to your example, it would only be a good analogy if the store also sells staples.

Wrong. It is a good analogy as it stands because ArenaNet DOES NOT sell gold (staples). ArenaNet ONLY sells gems (paperclips) and nothing else at all.

let me put this to you without gems, gems are irrelevant.

arena net sells items in their store
some people dont want the items in their store, they want paperclips
arenanet tells people they will accept paperclips as payment for the items in their store, at a trade in value of 10 cents for store credit.
arenanet sells paperclips to people who didnt want their other items for 14 cents.

every item a paperclip buyer buys, is giving anet more money overall, than if the normal cash buying customer had bought it.

forget the gems, it messes with peoples minds, its just a conversion factor for money, and a way of saying store credit.

Gems are the ONLY relevant item because gems are the ONLY thing ArenaNet sells.

All gem/gold trades in either direction make ArenaNet $0.00.
All items bought from the gem store make ArenaNet $0.00.

The only transaction of any kind that makes money for ArenaNet is when people buy gems. What they do with the gems does not in any way affect how much money ArenaNet makes.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

first remove gems from your whole mental model, gems are store credit, you may as well think of them as dollars in store credit.

now according to your example, it would only be a good analogy if the store also sells staples.

Wrong. It is a good analogy as it stands because ArenaNet DOES NOT sell gold (staples). ArenaNet ONLY sells gems (paperclips) and nothing else at all.

let me put this to you without gems, gems are irrelevant.

arena net sells items in their store
some people dont want the items in their store, they want paperclips
arenanet tells people they will accept paperclips as payment for the items in their store, at a trade in value of 10 cents for store credit.
arenanet sells paperclips to people who didnt want their other items for 14 cents.

every item a paperclip buyer buys, is giving anet more money overall, than if the normal cash buying customer had bought it.

forget the gems, it messes with peoples minds, its just a conversion factor for money, and a way of saying store credit.

Gems are the ONLY relevant item because gems are the ONLY thing ArenaNet sells.

All gem/gold trades in either direction make ArenaNet $0.00.
All items bought from the gem store make ArenaNet $0.00.

The only transaction of any kind that makes money for ArenaNet is when people buy gems. What they do with the gems does not in any way affect how much money ArenaNet makes.

gems are just a conversion of money, people only buy gems to get some other good or service.
If the grocery store you go to tommorow makes you buy Shoprite dollars, which you trade for anything in the store, do you think that means they are no longer selling groceries?

really?
no troll?
you really think they are no longer selling groceries?

what if i go to jamaica, am i no longer buying anything after i convert my US dollars to jamaican dollars.
“I just bought jamaican dollars” anything i got in jamaica was free?

seriously?
this is your economics?

wow people are truely living in a haze.

even with your reasoning, did it ever occur to you that the products you can buy with gems will determine how much money you can get for gems/and how much gems you sell as arena net?
people dont buy gems cause gems are cool, they buy it to get specific items from anet store.

I dont sell items, i sell store credit. wtf
actually you must be trying very hard not to see at this point, there is no other explanation

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

dude, it has nothing to do with real or fake currency.
its has to do with conversions and the tax withing the conversion.

let me illustrate this more carefully.
the only way in which gems are created, is via someone trading cash for gems.
every single gem store item must be obtained with gems.
gold->gem traders are not creating gems, they are trading for them.
gem->gold buyers are trading for gold, not creating gold.

there is a tax on this trade.

so. lets look at the item that is purchased with gems, and trace the paper trail to see how much money must be paid to anet, to bring this item into existence.
i will use all the current actual values for this illustration as cited here
http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

for sake of simplicity, lets assume the item is 100 gems in cost, its a top hat.
playerA wants a top hat, he trades in his gold for gems.
“100 gems costs 12 g 61 s to buy.”
so he trades 12 gold and 61s to AnettradeBankerMan for 100 gems he gets top hat
but, now AnettradeBankerMan now has 12 gold 61 silver in he can now sell to Player B who wants gold. (note without player A trading, he wouldnt have this gold to sell)

So how much money can he get from Player B for his newly stocked gold?
“1 g costs 0.14 USD to buy through gems.”
he can get 14 cents for every gold, by multiplication we can now see how much was paid to anet corporation in order for this top hat to come into existence.

.14 times 12.61 = 1.76$

so yes the item is paid for by player B, but player B is essentially paying more to bring the same item into existence compared to if he had bought it direct, for 1.25 because of the taxes on gold/gem conversion.

realize that the player who buys gold, is actually trading with another player (through anet currnency exchange) since anet takes a tax, the items created through this trade actually cost more.
just follow the money if you dont believe me.
pick any item, see how much gold must be traded to anet to bring the item into existence, then see how much anet can sell that gold to a different player for. that shows you how much money anet made off that item.

The amount of money ArenaNet makes is exclusively based on the number of gems purchased, not on what was spent in the gem store.

Every single gem store transaction is 100% irrelevant because they are made with currencies that have no value.

Only the initial purchase of gems nets ArenaNet any actual currency, how you use those gems once they are purchased is of no concern whatsoever.

You’re doing a bunch of math that means nothing because you’ve missed the main point. Anything times gold or anything times gems is always equal to 0 because they have no value, just as everything you can purchase in the gem store has no value.

Wow. you guys. really dont get it.
it doesnt matter if gems or gold is real or fake pretend, all that matters is that people are willing to pay money for it.
thats all that matters, people are willing to pay money for it.
if a company can sell paper clips for 14 cents, that means every paperclip is worth 14 cents.

anet is essentially giving players store credit in exchange for paper clips at a value of 10 cents, and selling the paper clips to customers at a value of 14 cents.

it doesnt matter if paper clips arent real money, all that matters is someone is willing to pay for it.

kitten , now i see why so many people get ripped off, you throw some pointless conversion factors, and they can no longer see what prices mean.

You can lead a horse to water…

Sometimes people rather be right than knowledgeable. Secondly, some people have put their pride on the line, they mocked knowledge, so even if they realize they are wrong, they cannot at this point give up the fight. They feel that they have gone too far to just say " you know what… you have a point." It’s why i gave up the argument. One can only have a meaningful discussion when the other side listens. And I realized that some players On this forum are simply repeating their flawed thinking over and over as if it were fact, calling it fact, and being encouraged cause others are also suffering from the same flawed thinking.

They gain inspiration in numbers even when the numbers are wrong.

I think someone even mentioned Flat-earthers. I myself refrained from making such a comment since it would be insulting. Not someone’s fault if they are ignorant about what value means. On the other hand I am sure that they will not point to this post and comment about How Ironic it is, since in their opinion, I have no clue what I am talking about. Which only makes me laugh… The Irony compounds. Kind of Like… Interest.

ok i got trolled again, good show mtpelion.

for anyone (if there really is anyone) who is still confused.

gems are store credit.

gold players create is an item anet can sell for real money

players trade in their gold at a reduced value in store credit as compared to what anet sells that gold for to other players.

nothing is wrong with this, its business, but it is.
this means, as long as gold is selling, anyone who gets any gemstore item, by any means, is essentially bringing value to anet.

as, well every gem to gold transaction brings anet a % of the amount exchanged.

phys.7689:

gems are just a conversion of money, people only buy gems to get some other good or service.
If the grocery store you go to tommorow makes you buy Shoprite dollars, which you trade for anything in the store, do you think that means they are no longer selling groceries?

really?
no troll?
you really think they are no longer selling groceries?

what if i go to jamaica, am i no longer buying anything after i convert my US dollars to jamaican dollars.
“I just bought jamaican dollars” anything i got in jamaica was free?

seriously?
this is your economics?

wow people are truely living in a haze.

even with your reasoning, did it ever occur to you that the products you can buy with gems will determine how much money you can get for gems/and how much gems you sell as arena net?
people dont buy gems cause gems are cool, they buy it to get specific items from anet store.

I dont sell items, i sell store credit. wtf
actually you must be trying very hard not to see at this point, there is no other explanation

I really can’t make it any plainer why you are dead wrong. Fake money that is traded for other fake money or used to buy fake things does not make me any real money. Only by selling the fake money in the first place do I make any real money.

If someone else wants to attempt to break this concept down further so that you can understand it, I welcome them to try.

For my part, being called a troll for trying to educate you signals the end of my endeavor to rectify your ignorance.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

sorry penguin, i know longer believe you are for real, i hope you are just trolling, because otherwise it means that humanity is really has no hope when up against business savy people.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

gems are just a conversion of money, people only buy gems to get some other good or service.
If the grocery store you go to tommorow makes you buy Shoprite dollars, which you trade for anything in the store, do you think that means they are no longer selling groceries?

really?
no troll?
you really think they are no longer selling groceries?

what if i go to jamaica, am i no longer buying anything after i convert my US dollars to jamaican dollars.
“I just bought jamaican dollars” anything i got in jamaica was free?

seriously?
this is your economics?

wow people are truely living in a haze.

even with your reasoning, did it ever occur to you that the products you can buy with gems will determine how much money you can get for gems/and how much gems you sell as arena net?
people dont buy gems cause gems are cool, they buy it to get specific items from anet store.

I dont sell items, i sell store credit. wtf
actually you must be trying very hard not to see at this point, there is no other explanation

I really can’t make it any plainer why you are dead wrong. Fake money that is traded for other fake money or used to buy fake things does not make me any real money. Only by selling the fake money in the first place do I make any real money.

If someone else wants to attempt to break this concept down further so that you can understand it, I welcome them to try.

For my part, being called a troll for trying to educate you signals the end of my endeavor to rectify your ignorance.

fake money that can be traded for fake money that can be traded for real money. Is as good as real money.
thats all.
the fact anet can sell people monopoly money, means monoply money has value. If you cant understand that concept, then you will never be able to understand what the business model is all about, and why it actually works.

phys.7689:

as, well every gem to gold transaction brings anet a % of the amount exchanged.

Wrong again. I think that until you have an understanding of how businesses work, you’ll keep having these incorrect thoughts about business mechanics. Kinda like how I don’t go to a doctor to fix my car engine, or go to a veterinarian to ask how to grow plants. So you may be an expert on how to play the game, but not an expert on how the game works.

phys.7689:

the fact anet can sell people monopoly money, means monoply money has value. If you cant understand that concept, then you will never be able to understand what the business model is all about, and why it actually works.

Monopoly money has no monetary value. You can’t take it to a store, and expect to buy anything with it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

As per the User Agreement, Gems have no value. When you’re buying Gems, you’re not buying something physical, nor are you buying something of value. You paid Anet for the privilege of accessing exclusive content that has Entertainment Value. Once the Gems are in your account, you have no rights to them, and Anet has every right to take it away from you at their discretion.

You said before that Games with Microtransactions have only two types of players " Paying customers" and " Non-paying customers."

You are 100 % right, I can agree with you on this.

The problem is, you misunderstand who a paying customer is, mainly because Gw2 was released AFTER the “Extra-credits” episode you saw was aired.

There are Paying Customers and Non-paying customers.

Non-paying customers bought the box, and never made a single purchase off the gem store.

We agree on that.

Paying customers Bought the box, and buy items off the gem-store, with cash, and in-game-gold.

Both are paying customers.

The cash buyers buy gems with their real world cash. That is when Anet gets their real world cash.

The Gold-> Gem converters paid for their Gems with Gold, which Anet now can sell to others In exchange for gems. Gems that the cash to gem purchasers bought with cash. THAT is the moment Anet gets it’s real world cash off a gold -> gem conversion.

The ONLY reason Anet has Gold to sell for gems to players that bought gems with cash is because a Player sold it’s Gold for gems.

If no one bought gems with in game gold the price paid for gems with cash would climb so high , that it would be so prohibitive, that the people that purchase gems with cash, simply to buy gold would stop buying gold, which meas eventually they would stop buying gems with cash.

THIS is the reason Stockholders care, that players buy gems for in game gold, it gives their company a product to sell.

Saying that Anet only sells Gems is … well, trying to be charitable… ignorant.

Anet sells it’s Virtual Goods and Services and offers them so they can be paid for in different ways. Some pay for them with cash, some pay for them with in game gold. Anet also makes Money by being the Middle man between players In in game gold exchanges.

last example. Imagine 2 players come to Anet One has $10,000 they want to exchange for 10,000 gems, but ONLY if they can Immediately, and Instantly exchange it for 10,000 Gold. And wants to be taken care of first. If Anet takes care of another customer first he will walk away.

Problem: In this example Anet only has 1,000 gold.

The Other comes to Anet with 10,000 gold that it wants to exchange for 5,000 gems. The problem is, he also wishjes to be seen first, and if Anet sees anyone before him, he will simply walk away with his Gold.

Whom do you think Anet will see first? telling the other " have a Nice day, see you tomorrow?"

It’s fairly obvious. You cannot sell what you do not have. In Game gold is inventory. Just because it has not realized it’s value by being sold does not mean it has no value. Imagine if you had an inventory of 20,000 sweaters that sold for $19.99 each and told the IRS that those sweaters had no value because they had not been sold yet?

hmmm…. Something to think about

Back to lurking

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

Except that you can use gems to buy in game gold that has value.

Even the Federal government thought so enough to look into the issue.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/congressional-report-says-you-may-owe-taxes-on-your-wow-income/

Nerelith.7360:

You said before that Games with Microtransactions have only two types of players " Paying customers" and " Non-paying customers."

You are 100 % right, I can agree with you on this.

The problem is, you misunderstand who a paying customer is, mainly because Gw2 was released AFTER the “Extra-credits” episode you saw was aired.

There are Paying Customers and Non-paying customers.

Non-paying customers bought the box, and never made a single purchase off the gem store.

We agree on that.

Paying customers Bought the box, and buy items off the gem-store, with cash, and in-game-gold.

Both are paying customers.

The cash buyers buy gems with their real world cash. That is when Anet gets their real world cash.

The Gold-> Gem converters paid for their Gems with Gold, which Anet now can sell to others In exchange for gems. Gems that the cash to gem purchasers bought with cash. THAT is the moment Anet gets it’s real world cash off a gold -> gem conversion.

The ONLY reason Anet has Gold to sell for gems to players that bought gems with cash is because a Player sold it’s Gold for gems.

If no one bought gems with in game gold the price paid for gems with cash would climb so high , that it would be so prohibitive, that the people that purchase gems with cash, simply to buy gold would stop buying gold, which meas eventually they would stop buying gems with cash.

THIS is the reason Stockholders care, that players buy gems for in game gold, it gives their company a product to sell.

Saying that Anet only sells Gems is … well, trying to be charitable… ignorant.

Anet sells it’s Virtual Goods and Services and offers them so they can be paid for in different ways. Some pay for them with cash, some pay for them with in game gold. Anet also makes Money by being the Middle man between players In in game gold exchanges.

last example. Imagine 2 players come to Anet One has $10,000 they want to exchange for 10,000 gems, but ONLY if they can Immediately, and Instantly exchange it for 10,000 Gold. And wants to be taken care of first. If Anet takes care of another customer first he will walk away.

Problem: In this example Anet only has 1,000 gold.

The Other comes to Anet with 10,000 gold that it wants to exchange for 5,000 gems. The problem is, he also wishjes to be seen first, and if Anet sees anyone before him, he will simply walk away with his Gold.

Whom do you think Anet will see first? telling the other " have a Nice day, see you tomorrow?"

It’s fairly obvious. You cannot sell what you do not have. In Game gold is inventory. Just because it has not realized it’s value by being sold does not mean it has no value. Imagine if you had an inventory of 20,000 sweaters that sold for $19.99 each and told the IRS that those sweaters had no value because they had not been sold yet?

hmmm…. Something to think about

Back to lurking

Ok, I see the confusion. When I say “paying customers”, I’m referring to players like myself who purchase Gems. “Non-paying customers” paid once, but do not buy Gems.

Now onto your other misunderstanding. Gold → Gem exchanges have no monetary value. Period. Anet makes no money from players exchanging in-game Gold for Gems. Why is this so hard to understand? If a player exchanged their Gems for Gold, those Gems now in the pot are not resold to players like me. The Gem Exchange is separate from buying Gems with real money. Gems purchased with real money are created out of thin air.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

As per the User Agreement, Gems have no value. When you’re buying Gems, you’re not buying something physical, nor are you buying something of value. You paid Anet for the privilege of accessing exclusive content that has Entertainment Value. Once the Gems are in your account, you have no rights to them, and Anet has every right to take it away from you at their discretion.

The User Agreement means that you cannot trade gems back into cash. That does not negate the initial monetary value Anet has placed on them of 800 for $10. Just b/c the value can fluctuate doesn’t mean it never exists.

I think you are lumping all consideration for monetary value into one circumstance and ignoring the rest.

Nerelith.7360:

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

Except that you can use gems to buy in game gold that has value.

Even the Federal government thought so enough to look into the issue.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/congressional-report-says-you-may-owe-taxes-on-your-wow-income/

Another mistake you’re making is that you assume that our government representatives know what they’re doing in the first place. This idea is silly, and is doomed to fail in any economy. I already pay taxes on my Gems that I buy. I’m not paying taxes on anything else.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

You said before that Games with Microtransactions have only two types of players " Paying customers" and " Non-paying customers."

You are 100 % right, I can agree with you on this.

The problem is, you misunderstand who a paying customer is, mainly because Gw2 was released AFTER the “Extra-credits” episode you saw was aired.

There are Paying Customers and Non-paying customers.

Non-paying customers bought the box, and never made a single purchase off the gem store.

We agree on that.

Paying customers Bought the box, and buy items off the gem-store, with cash, and in-game-gold.

Both are paying customers.

The cash buyers buy gems with their real world cash. That is when Anet gets their real world cash.

The Gold-> Gem converters paid for their Gems with Gold, which Anet now can sell to others In exchange for gems. Gems that the cash to gem purchasers bought with cash. THAT is the moment Anet gets it’s real world cash off a gold -> gem conversion.

The ONLY reason Anet has Gold to sell for gems to players that bought gems with cash is because a Player sold it’s Gold for gems.

If no one bought gems with in game gold the price paid for gems with cash would climb so high , that it would be so prohibitive, that the people that purchase gems with cash, simply to buy gold would stop buying gold, which meas eventually they would stop buying gems with cash.

THIS is the reason Stockholders care, that players buy gems for in game gold, it gives their company a product to sell.

Saying that Anet only sells Gems is … well, trying to be charitable… ignorant.

Anet sells it’s Virtual Goods and Services and offers them so they can be paid for in different ways. Some pay for them with cash, some pay for them with in game gold. Anet also makes Money by being the Middle man between players In in game gold exchanges.

last example. Imagine 2 players come to Anet One has $10,000 they want to exchange for 10,000 gems, but ONLY if they can Immediately, and Instantly exchange it for 10,000 Gold. And wants to be taken care of first. If Anet takes care of another customer first he will walk away.

Problem: In this example Anet only has 1,000 gold.

The Other comes to Anet with 10,000 gold that it wants to exchange for 5,000 gems. The problem is, he also wishjes to be seen first, and if Anet sees anyone before him, he will simply walk away with his Gold.

Whom do you think Anet will see first? telling the other " have a Nice day, see you tomorrow?"

It’s fairly obvious. You cannot sell what you do not have. In Game gold is inventory. Just because it has not realized it’s value by being sold does not mean it has no value. Imagine if you had an inventory of 20,000 sweaters that sold for $19.99 each and told the IRS that those sweaters had no value because they had not been sold yet?

hmmm…. Something to think about

Back to lurking

Ok, I see the confusion. When I say “paying customers”, I’m referring to players like myself who purchase Gems. “Non-paying customers” paid once, but do not buy Gems.

Now onto your other misunderstanding. Gold -> Gem exchanges have no monetary value. Period. Anet makes no money from players exchanging in-game Gold for Gems. Why is this so hard to understand? If a player exchanged their Gems for Gold, those Gems now in the pot are not resold to players like me. The Gem Exchange is separate from buying Gems with real money. Gems purchased with real money are created out of thin air.

They make their money from selling you in game gold. Not Gems.

You need to read closer before you try to correct me.

If Anet has no in game gold to sell, then many of the people buying gems with real world cash will stop buying gems with real world cash.

Straw-man arguments are easy to demolish, but still do not deal with the real argument. Nice try though.

You are a paying customer, because you buy gems with in game gold. I am a paying customer because I pay for gems with in world cash that Anet then has to sell, and realizes it’s profit when it turns around and sells the gold I sold them, to players that use their gems to purchase gold.

Without me, Anet has no product to sell to them, and they then stop buying gems with Gold.

With me, they have an inventory of product to sell to players that buy gems with cash, that they then use to buy in game gold.

The Non-paying customer does not buy gems with cash or with in game gold.
PS Just because you type in bold doesn’t make what you typed in bold true.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

As per the User Agreement, Gems have no value. When you’re buying Gems, you’re not buying something physical, nor are you buying something of value. You paid Anet for the privilege of accessing exclusive content that has Entertainment Value. Once the Gems are in your account, you have no rights to them, and Anet has every right to take it away from you at their discretion.

The User Agreement means that you cannot trade gems back into cash. That does not negate the initial monetary value Anet has placed on them of 800 for $10. Just b/c the value can fluctuate doesn’t mean it never exists.

I think you are lumping all monetary value into one circumstance and ignoring the rest.

Once you purchase the Gems, they no longer hold any value. You’re paying for the rights to acquire exclusive content, and Anet gives you these virtual credits to limit you on now much you can access. I could buy 4,000 Gems right now, and Anet would have every right to take it away without giving me a refund. Not to say that they would, but rather that they can.

Nerelith.7360:

They make their money from selling you in game gold. Not Gems.

Anet does not sell gold.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

Except that you can use gems to buy in game gold that has value.

Even the Federal government thought so enough to look into the issue.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/congressional-report-says-you-may-owe-taxes-on-your-wow-income/

Another mistake you’re making is that you assume that our government representatives know what they’re doing in the first place. This idea is silly, and is doomed to fail in any economy. I already pay taxes on my Gems that I buy. I’m not paying taxes on anything else.

My point is, even the government is thinking that there is value In in game holdings if there is a Potential that said Holdings can be turned into actual real world income.

Not the crux of my argument, but simply pointing to it as a " see I’m Not the only one." and you discounting it by saying " Oh well, what do they know?" doesn’t make the fact that even the government is looking into it" a valid supporting argument

yes you can discount it, that doesn’t make it go away. it’s Like the ostrich with it’s head In the sand that thinks the threat is gone because they cannot see it.

Nerelith.7360:

They make their money from selling you in game gold. Not Gems.

This statement is false, and self-evidently so.

That you cannot see this speaks to the fact that the rest of your posts on this subject have been complete nonsense.

Other than by using third party black market sites that violate the terms of use, there is no way to buy gold.

Nerelith.7360:

They make their money from selling you in game gold. Not Gems.

You need to read closer before you try to correct me.

If Anet has no in game gold to sell, then many of the people buying gems with real world cash will stop buying gems with real world cash.

Straw-man arguments are easy to demolish, but still do not deal with the real argument. Nice try though.

PS Just because you type in bold doesn’t make what you typed in bold true.

/sigh

You seem to be misunderstanding your own posts. Here’s your quote:

Nerelith.7360:

The Gold-> Gem converters paid for their Gems with Gold, which Anet now can sell to others In exchange for gems. Gems that the cash to gem purchasers bought with cash. THAT is the moment Anet gets it’s real world cash off a gold -> gem conversion.

The ONLY reason Anet has Gold to sell for gems to players that bought gems with cash is because a Player sold it’s Gold for gems.

1) Gold is NOT the only reason why I buy Gems.

2) Anet already deposited a finite amount of Gold and Gems into the Gem Exchange before the game started.

3) Anet makes money buy selling your Gems to access exclusive content.

Edit – pay close attention to your very first sentence

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

They make their money from selling you in game gold. Not Gems.

You need to read closer before you try to correct me.

If Anet has no in game gold to sell, then many of the people buying gems with real world cash will stop buying gems with real world cash.

Straw-man arguments are easy to demolish, but still do not deal with the real argument. Nice try though.

PS Just because you type in bold doesn’t make what you typed in bold true.

/sigh

You seem to be misunderstanding your own posts. Here’s your quote:

Nerelith.7360:

The Gold-> Gem converters paid for their Gems with Gold, which Anet now can sell to others In exchange for gems. Gems that the cash to gem purchasers bought with cash. THAT is the moment Anet gets it’s real world cash off a gold -> gem conversion.

The ONLY reason Anet has Gold to sell for gems to players that bought gems with cash is because a Player sold it’s Gold for gems.

1) Gold is NOT the only reason why I buy Gems.

2) Anet already deposited a finite amount of Gold and Gems into the Gem Exchange before the game started.

3) Anet makes money buy selling your Gems to access exclusive content.

Edit – pay close attention to your very first sentence

You need to pay closer attention, I never said you. I said Many Players buy gems to trade them in for gold

Yes, Anet placed a limited pool of Gold for sale when the game started.

No…Just because there is no " Buy Gold" Button doesn’t mean they are not selling gold.

If you are are saying that " they sell GEMS for cash… that you can EXCHANGE for Gold… but that doesn’t mean " They sell Gold for cash"….

Not sure what I can say to you, since it appears you are being difficult now just to be difficult.

The " you" in the post you quoted is common english accepted useage of " you" in general…can also be seen as " they sell people." or " they sell many players." and does Not have to refer to YOU directly.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

As per the User Agreement, Gems have no value. When you’re buying Gems, you’re not buying something physical, nor are you buying something of value. You paid Anet for the privilege of accessing exclusive content that has Entertainment Value. Once the Gems are in your account, you have no rights to them, and Anet has every right to take it away from you at their discretion.

The User Agreement means that you cannot trade gems back into cash. That does not negate the initial monetary value Anet has placed on them of 800 for $10. Just b/c the value can fluctuate doesn’t mean it never exists.

I think you are lumping all monetary value into one circumstance and ignoring the rest.

Once you purchase the Gems, they no longer hold any value. You’re paying for the rights to acquire exclusive content, and Anet gives you these virtual credits to limit you on now much you can access. I could buy 4,000 Gems right now, and Anet would have every right to take it away without giving me a refund. Not to say that they would, but rather that they can.

You said and I quote:

Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

You did not say “after initial purchase or beside rl cash purchases”.

The definition:

Noun 1. monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

In this case the material worth is the 10 dollars traded for 800 gems, thus assigning a value to gems of said ratio.

What part of this is opinion?

Nerelith.7360:

No…Just because there is no " Buy Gold" Button doesn’t mean they are not selling gold.

Yes it does because buying gold and exchanging gold for gems is NOT the same thing. That’s not just a subtle distinction either. It has RL implications for how they run their business.

Nerelith.7360:

~~~ snip ~~~

Let me point out another quote from you:

Nerelith.7360:

They make their money from selling you in game gold. Not Gems.

Because of this statement, you’ve proven that you don’t understand the business mechanics of the microtransaction store. Anet makes no money selling you in-game Gold. Anet makes money when you buy Gems.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

As per the User Agreement, Gems have no value. When you’re buying Gems, you’re not buying something physical, nor are you buying something of value. You paid Anet for the privilege of accessing exclusive content that has Entertainment Value. Once the Gems are in your account, you have no rights to them, and Anet has every right to take it away from you at their discretion.

The User Agreement means that you cannot trade gems back into cash. That does not negate the initial monetary value Anet has placed on them of 800 for $10. Just b/c the value can fluctuate doesn’t mean it never exists.

I think you are lumping all monetary value into one circumstance and ignoring the rest.

Once you purchase the Gems, they no longer hold any value. You’re paying for the rights to acquire exclusive content, and Anet gives you these virtual credits to limit you on now much you can access. I could buy 4,000 Gems right now, and Anet would have every right to take it away without giving me a refund. Not to say that they would, but rather that they can.

You said and I quote:

You did not say “after initial purchase or beside rl cash purchases”.

The definition:

Noun 1. monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

In this case the material worth is the 10 dollars traded for 800 gems, thus assigning a value to gems of said ratio.

What part of this is opinion?

The fact that Gems have no material worth, as per the User Agreement.

They could say they are jebus christ in the user agreement, but that wouldn’t make it so.

I cannot fathom how gullible people can be to have someone sell them something for a set price, add a disclaimer and then have those people not only believe that the sale was essentially non-existent, but have then defend it. Is it Stokholm Syndrome or something?

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

No…Just because there is no " Buy Gold" Button doesn’t mean they are not selling gold.

Yes it does because buying gold and exchanging gold for gems is NOT the same thing. That’s not just a subtle distinction either. It has RL implications for how they run their business.

Ok, If I Buy 800 gems for $10, and then use the gems to Buy In Game Gold. I Just Bought in game gold for $10.

Two things = to the same thing are = to each other. is a basic law of mathematics.

If A = B, and B= C, then A = C.

If you are having a hard time understanding that, maybe trying to explain Monetary value is a bit ambitious, even for me.

Nerelith.7360:

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

No…Just because there is no " Buy Gold" Button doesn’t mean they are not selling gold.

Yes it does because buying gold and exchanging gold for gems is NOT the same thing. That’s not just a subtle distinction either. It has RL implications for how they run their business.

Ok, If I Buy 800 gems for $10, and then use the gems to Buy In Game Gold. I Just Bought in game gold for $10.

Two things = to the same thing are = to each other. is a basic law of mathematics.

If A = B, and B= C, then A = C.

If you are having a hard time understanding that, maybe trying to explain Monetary value is a bit ambitious, even for me.

Exchange is not the same as buying. B does not equal C in your example because the rate of exchange is not fixed. The amount of gold I get for 10$ today is not the same as the amount of gold I could get for $10 last week. I know that blows your mind but that’s the difference here. Anet doesn’t sell gold, they sell gems.

Again, not a pedantic point, nor subtle. It’s real and has implications to how Anet runs their business.

Nerelith.7360:

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

No…Just because there is no " Buy Gold" Button doesn’t mean they are not selling gold.

Yes it does because buying gold and exchanging gold for gems is NOT the same thing. That’s not just a subtle distinction either. It has RL implications for how they run their business.

Ok, If I Buy 800 gems for $10, and then use the gems to Buy In Game Gold. I Just Bought in game gold for $10.

Two things = to the same thing are = to each other. is a basic law of mathematics.

If A = B, and B= C, then A = C.

If you are having a hard time understanding that, maybe trying to explain Monetary value is a bit ambitious, even for me.

This is a fallacy. You’re trying to apply math to something that isn’t related to math. The reason why we’re having a hard time explaining things to you, is because you have the incorrect belief that you’re correct. Like when I was younger, I believed in Santa Claus, because I would get Christmas presents and a hand written letter from him. Just because I believed it doesn’t make me right.

In our case, we know we’re right, because our arguments are based on facts, with business and economic principals to boot.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

No…Just because there is no " Buy Gold" Button doesn’t mean they are not selling gold.

Yes it does because buying gold and exchanging gold for gems is NOT the same thing. That’s not just a subtle distinction either. It has RL implications for how they run their business.

You mean that letter from Anet-a-claus……….lol
Ok, If I Buy 800 gems for $10, and then use the gems to Buy In Game Gold. I Just Bought in game gold for $10.

Two things = to the same thing are = to each other. is a basic law of mathematics.

If A = B, and B= C, then A = C.

If you are having a hard time understanding that, maybe trying to explain Monetary value is a bit ambitious, even for me.

This is a fallacy. You’re trying to apply math to something that isn’t related to math. The reason why we’re having a hard time explaining things to you, is because you have the incorrect belief that you’re correct. Like when I was younger, I believed in Santa Claus, because I would get Christmas presents and a hand written letter from him. Just because I believed it doesn’t make me right.

In our case, we know we’re right, because our arguments are based on facts, with business and economic principals to boot.

You mean the letter (user agreement) from Anet-a Claus? lol

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

Before you go off and make claims, you need to be sure you fully understand what you’re talking about. Gems have no monetary value. Gold as no monetary value. We all agree on this, because you can’t dispute facts with your options.

Regarding Gems. There are two types of Gems, per se. The ones that players like me purchase, and the ones non-paying players exchange in-game Gold for. The Gems that I purchase never existed before. They’re created out of thin air, thus brand new to the economy. Gems non-paying customers exchange for already existed when Anet first opened their servers. The Gem Exchange had a finite amount of Gems already in the pot for players to exchange for. Over time, the amount in the pot goes up and down, depending on the transactions made by players (note – Gem Store purchases destroy Gems. They don’t go into the pot). If I exchange my Gems for Gold, my Gems go into the pot. So now the pot has a mix of newly created Gems, and existing Gems from the beginning of the game.

With that said, non-paying players do not generate any revenue for Anet/NCSoft. The money comes from players like me. In business, paying customers drive the economy. Sure Anet finds all the players to be important, or there wouldn’t be a game to begin with. There would be a lot less players in game if only the microtransaction players were in there. We all get to enjoy the “free” content Anet provides, and the paying players help to sustain the status quo.

In order to sustain corporate profits, you must continue to bring in new monies. That’s the purpose of a for-profit organization. My money goes to employee salaries, overhead, R&D, dividends for shareholders, etc. This is how a business works.

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

As per the User Agreement, Gems have no value. When you’re buying Gems, you’re not buying something physical, nor are you buying something of value. You paid Anet for the privilege of accessing exclusive content that has Entertainment Value. Once the Gems are in your account, you have no rights to them, and Anet has every right to take it away from you at their discretion.

The User Agreement means that you cannot trade gems back into cash. That does not negate the initial monetary value Anet has placed on them of 800 for $10. Just b/c the value can fluctuate doesn’t mean it never exists.

I think you are lumping all monetary value into one circumstance and ignoring the rest.

Once you purchase the Gems, they no longer hold any value. You’re paying for the rights to acquire exclusive content, and Anet gives you these virtual credits to limit you on now much you can access. I could buy 4,000 Gems right now, and Anet would have every right to take it away without giving me a refund. Not to say that they would, but rather that they can.

You said and I quote:

You did not say “after initial purchase or beside rl cash purchases”.

The definition:

Noun 1. monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

In this case the material worth is the 10 dollars traded for 800 gems, thus assigning a value to gems of said ratio.

What part of this is opinion?

The fact that Gems have no material worth, as per the User Agreement.

anet didnt sign a user agreement. this whole discussion is from the point of view of anet, what has monetary value to them.
What monetary value does anet place on gold
what monetary value do players who sell them gold provide
What monetary value does gems have for anet.

ANET IS THE SUBJECT, anet didnt sign a user agreement, therefore the user agreement is completely and totally irrelevant.