Guild Wars 2

Hello,

at all my playtime I always tried to have an overview about all things going on in GW, one thing I watched is that there were a lot currencies added over the time.

I tried to list, we have:
- gold
- gems
- karma
- dungeon tokens
- guild commendations
- fractal relicts
- laurels
- wvw badges
- skill points
- glory
and had SA-Box baubles, captain’s council commendations.

In every way those save you some money(gold) or bring you some. But I think it’s quite hard to constantly have an overview about the uses of them all, especially if you’re not playing that much, I think it can cause some confusion. Or is it necessary to have so many currencies because it balances the game better? I’m not sure.

Do we have too many currencies?

YES!

absolutely id rather get more of 4 or so then add bit by bit to 8 plus.
danm i need more gold

Yes, there shouldn’t be more than 4 or 5.

A number of these are tied to particular activities, awarded for participation. If they weren’t there then players who choose not to participate but have a lot of the primary currencies like gold or karma, can get rewards from those activities without actually doing them.

Should someone who didn’t play SAB be about to buy swag from Moto on day one? or Dungeon specific armor? or siege engine plans?

Way too many currencies and currencies should not take up inventory space.

are there too many currencies? yes. is this inevitable? also yes. the new currencies are added to reward people doing new activities. that means that every new content will have new currencies.

1. Do you like unique rewards for unique content.
2. Do you like to be rewarded on a non-RNG basis.

If the answer to the 2 questions is yes, then different currencies are needed.

I don’t think we have too many currencies. I do think that some people farm currencies they won’t need, for the sake of farming. Having a million fractal relics is useless. Even if content was added for them, they’d stay useless.

Most excess currencies can be converted into gold, which can be used for almost everything that’s not currency-exclusive. This way, gold is the slow way to get everything, while all other currencies are the fast way to get specific stuff.

I think we have too many currencies in that it is overwhelming for new players. But it comes with a dynamic MMO.

I think the amount of currencies is fine however I would like to see some changes to the dungeon tokens. Changing the amount need for armor/weapons into single or possibly low double digits(and change the amount rewarded accordingly) so people wouldn’t have a bunch of tokens filling up bag/bank space.

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy. I get the wvw badges however and the glory. But, pve gated stuff is silly. I like the concept behind it, just not the implementation. If i run Arah because i enjoy it, why can’t i get CM stuff? CM takes 1/3 of the time to run.

munkiman.3068:

If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it.

What kind of reasoning is this? Why doesn’t Anet just give you a lvl 80 and a full exotic gear and several legendaries for logging in?

You need to work (play) for your items and if you don’t want to invest the time to work for them then you don’t deserve it

Vol.5241:

munkiman.3068:

If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it.

What kind of reasoning is this? Why doesn’t Anet just give you a lvl 80 and a full exotic gear and several legendaries for logging in?

You need to work (play) for your items and if you don’t want to invest the time to work for them then you don’t deserve it

Yes, please continue to make work and play interchangeable, that’s a good goal for a video game. Arah can take up to 3 times as long as CM and is actually more fun to me, yes i’d like to buy CM armor with an Arah token exchange. I’m not asking for stuff just because i play the game, save your ridiculous comparison logic for yourself.

Vol.5241:

munkiman.3068:

If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it.

What kind of reasoning is this? Why doesn’t Anet just give you a lvl 80 and a full exotic gear and several legendaries for logging in?

You need to work (play) for your items and if you don’t want to invest the time to work for them then you don’t deserve it

At no point should the word “work” be used on the board of a videogame, or any game at all for that matter. It should be censored, just like kitten, kitten, kitten and kitten.

Study, practice, theorize, train … these are all valid words when it comes to games. Work isn’t one of them.

munkiman.3068:

Yes, please continue to make work and play interchangeable

marnick.4305:

At no point should the word “work” be used on the board of a videogame, or any game at all for that matter. It should be censored, just like kitten, kitten, kitten and kitten.

Study, practice, theorize, train … these are all valid words when it comes to games. Work isn’t one of them.

I’m surprised at these strong negative reactions to the word “Work.” Some of us enjoy our work, both in real life and in the game. I love my current job to death. I also loved my journey towards my Legendary. While you guys may not like what you personally define as “work,” in game, there are plenty of others who do, and are happier because of it. (And trust me, there are also many people who think practice/study/training is work. Just ask those disgruntled high school students!)

For a game to appeal to a wide audience, Anet has to keep both sides happy. On one end, hardcore players have something to work for (Legendaries) while non-hardcore people don’t get disadvantaged at all by other’s time spent (Legendary/Exotic same stats.). It’s a wonderful compromise, I think.

Again, while it’s understandable to get upset at what you guys define as “work,” please do recognize there’s a lot of people who do enjoy it.

Ursan.7846:

marnick.4305:

At no point should the word “work” be used on the board of a videogame, or any game at all for that matter. It should be censored, just like kitten, kitten, kitten and kitten.

Study, practice, theorize, train … these are all valid words when it comes to games. Work isn’t one of them.

I’m surprised at these strong negative reactions to the word “Work.” Some of us enjoy our work, both in real life and in the game. I love my current job to death. I also loved my journey towards my Legendary. While you guys may not like what you personally define as “work,” in game, there are plenty of others who do, and are happier because of it. (And trust me, there are also many people who think practice/study/training is work. Just ask those disgruntled high school students!)

While I do love my job, the word “work” implies compensation with cold hard cash. Unless I get paid for playing GW2, it can’t be work. It is a contradiction to consider anything work unless you’re paid for doing it with real money.

So if people tell me I should put the work into GW2 to get anything, I expect them to pay me a monthly salary in return. If they won’t pay me cash, I won’t play the game the same way I’d do my job. I want to have half an hour of fun after work and that should lead to a finish in due time. I don’t want to reach the finish without playing, but I also don’t want to do the equivalent of several Ironman distance triathlons either.

And to take that futher … I do sprint distance triathlons about 2 or 3 times a year. It is a pretty hardcore run and most people strongly respect me for it. A single fotm10 run takes longer than a sprint distance triathlon. Some runs even take longer than olympic distance triathlons. Why can’t I expect a guaranteed ascended ring for doing something that takes more time than a triathlon? Food for thought.

marnick.4305:

While I do love my job, the word “work” implies compensation with cold hard cash. Unless I get paid for playing GW2, it can’t be work. It is a contradiction to consider anything work unless you’re paid for doing it with real money.

That’s just your personal definition though. Some people consider grinding “work.” In the end, different people have different definitions.

marnick.4305:

And to take that futher … I do sprint distance triathlons about 2 or 3 times a year. It is a pretty hardcore run and most people strongly respect me for it. A single fotm10 run takes longer than a sprint distance triathlon. Some runs even take longer than olympic distance triathlons. Why can’t I expect a guaranteed ascended ring for doing something that takes more time than a triathlon? Food for thought.

You get 1/10th of a guaranteed ring, BTW.

You’re using your own personal values and making comparisons. That’s fine, but they don’t apply to everyone. I take 30 mins to run a 10k. I find the mere fact that I completed it very rewarding, as rewarding as my almost-to-be Legendary I’ve spent almost 1500 hours working on. And I trained a long time for the run. And grinded dungeons and fractals and such for the Legendary. I enjoyed every step of it, and some people would define it as “work.” But hey, I had fun!

Again, everyone has different definitions of “work” and “fun.” You have to recognize that your definition isn’t necessarily held by other people.

Ursan.7846:

marnick.4305:

While I do love my job, the word “work” implies compensation with cold hard cash. Unless I get paid for playing GW2, it can’t be work. It is a contradiction to consider anything work unless you’re paid for doing it with real money.

That’s just your personal definition though. Some people consider grinding “work.” In the end, different people have different definitions.

marnick.4305:

And to take that futher … I do sprint distance triathlons about 2 or 3 times a year. It is a pretty hardcore run and most people strongly respect me for it. A single fotm10 run takes longer than a sprint distance triathlon. Some runs even take longer than olympic distance triathlons. Why can’t I expect a guaranteed ascended ring for doing something that takes more time than a triathlon? Food for thought.

You get 1/10th of a guaranteed ring, BTW.

You’re using your own personal values and making comparisons. That’s fine, but they don’t apply to everyone. I take 30 mins to run a 10k. I find the mere fact that I completed it very rewarding, as rewarding as my almost-to-be Legendary I’ve spent almost 1500 hours working on. And I trained a long time for the run. And grinded dungeons and fractals and such for the Legendary. I enjoyed every step of it, and some people would define it as “work.” But hey, I had fun!

Again, everyone has different definitions of “work” and “fun.” You have to recognize that your definition isn’t necessarily held by other people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work

The one that comes closest to grinding a legendary is Project Management, and even that one strongly implies a professional project. Almost all others imply monetary compensation.

People don’t define grinding as “work”, they compare it to “work” which is almost always a negative comparison. The implication being that real work comes with a salary, while grinding doesn’t. Almost never is work in a videogame considered positive.

So whether or not we agree on the precise semantics, we probably agree that “work” in the context of videogames, is a very bad word. When a videogame feels like work, the game has to change (or the salary, but good luck making that happen).

marnick.4305:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work

The one that comes closest to grinding a legendary is Project Management, and even that one strongly implies a professional project. Almost all others imply monetary compensation.

People don’t define grinding as “work”, they compare it to “work” which is almost always a negative comparison. The implication being that real work comes with a salary, while grinding doesn’t. Almost never is work in a videogame considered positive.

So whether or not we agree on the precise semantics, we probably agree that “work” in the context of videogames, is a very bad word. When a videogame feels like work, the game has to change (or the salary, but good luck making that happen).

Again, you hold to this narrow view that compensation has to be monetary. Some people enjoy working towards a long-term goal. And some people feel that the in-game rewards are adequate compensation for the amount of time they spent, even if it’s not monetary. Different people, different values. (In fact, you can search the wiki page of “employment.” Not a single mention of money or cash. None.)

Vol’s original post you commented on used the word “work” colloquially, by the way (He literally put in the word “play” next to it. It’s pretty clear what he means when he used that word). But again, I repeat. Some people do enjoy working (playing an excessive amount of time?) towards in-game rewards. You have to recognize they exist.

As part of the topic of this thread, work pertaining to compensation is pretty much where we are. I would use the term chore, in a very broad way when thinking about working in a video game. If you’re working toward something, but it’s a chore to get there, it shouldn’t be in a video game. It’s interesting how literal people can get when arguing a point.

Gold is worthless outside of the game, which makes all these other currencies even more worthless, since they have next to no gold value. It may sound pessimistic to view it that way, but i certainly wouldn’t want to work at a job for this type of compensation, i definitely don’t want to do the same in a video game. No one should be asking for a handout, it’s not about free stuff without effort, it’s about versatility in currency.

munkiman.3068:

Gold is worthless outside of the game, which makes all these other currencies even more worthless, since they have next to no gold value.

Whereas I find gold is worthless IN the game because it can’t buy me Crucible of Eternity armor skins (appearance I desire) and its only tangentially related to me gaining Ascended level stats (all hail the laurel, king of currencies).

Fractals could produce absolutely zero gold and I’d still be doing them over the chore that is CoF 1 – they are more diverse and where the real terminal stat rewards are at.

Multiple currencies are the walls that keep mistakes like CoF 1 from corrupting ALL the mechanisms of advancement.

I may not have a legendary, but I do have 6/6 ascended on my main .

After a certain point most currencies besides gold and a few others become useless unless you have several Alt’s.

That is why we need a dynamic currency exchange. Outside of maybe laurels, but I suppose they could be involved as well.

To help with the Arah vs CoF token, it could be setup similar to the Gem/Gold exchange, where Anet sets the initial rate, but the players supposedly drive the system. A simple, yet unlikely way would be to set the initial rate based on the total ratio of all currencies, such as 10 CoF to 1 Aarah (arbitrary, the ratio is probably way too low).

I agree with the If it feels like work, it shouldn’t be in the game mentality. Which likely why I will be perpetually poor in game, as I choose not to farm CoF1 because I prefer to do other things than grinding gold, for the sake of having more gold.

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy. I get the wvw badges however and the glory. But, pve gated stuff is silly. I like the concept behind it, just not the implementation. If i run Arah because i enjoy it, why can’t i get CM stuff? CM takes 1/3 of the time to run.

Flip it around. Arah is a challenge, and if you complete a challenge you will be rewarded. The challenge is removed if you just run CM or CoF and can then get Arah gear just as easily.

A proposed solution: have one dungeon currency. Make the harder dungeons reward more currency, and make the corresponding rewards from those dungeons more expensive. So running CM would give you 50 tokens, running Arah would give you 100 tokens, a CM weapon would cost 200 tokens, and an Arah weapon would cost 400 tokens. Just an example, numbers could change.

But above all: make the tokens NOT take up inventory space.

Almdudler.8621:

Hello,

at all my playtime I always tried to have an overview about all things going on in GW, one thing I watched is that there were a lot currencies added over the time.

I tried to list, we have:
- gold
- gems
- karma
- dungeon tokens
- guild commendations
- fractal relicts
- laurels
- wvw badges
- skill points
- glory
and had SA-Box baubles, captain’s council commendations.

In every way those save you some money(gold) or bring you some. But I think it’s quite hard to constantly have an overview about the uses of them all, especially if you’re not playing that much, I think it can cause some confusion. Or is it necessary to have so many currencies because it balances the game better? I’m not sure.

There’s a few problems with the implications of this post.

Firstly, some of the things you listed are not currency. Dungeon tokens, fractal relics, WvW badges, and baubles/commendations are all tokens, since they are physical objects and take up inventory space. Currencies do not take up physical inventory space.

Secondly, even if you do count them as currencies, what exactly do you mean by “too many currencies”? What happens if you have “too many” of them? They are certainly not hard to keep track of; for example, for the dungeon tokens, all the dungeon merchants in the entire game are grouped together under one tent in Lion’s Arch: each dungeon has a corresponding merchant which you trade in that dungeon’s tokens for. It’s extremely simple and straight-forward.

As for whether it’s necessary or not? Well it depends on your design philosophy. ArenaNet’s design philosophy is that having separate currencies for separate content encourages the player to want to experience ALL of a game’s content. Which I think is a great idea.

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy.

This is just silly. The dungeon gear is the reward for doing the dungeon! Of course you should have to play through a dungeon if you specifically want that dungeons gear.

The whole point of making the dungeon gear the same as other level 80 exotic gear is so that you aren’t forced to play through it in order to have the best stats. The gear is purely cosmetic. Complaining that ANet is “forcing” you to play through a dungeon just for a purely cosmetic skin that you happen to like is petty.

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy.

This is just silly. The dungeon gear is the reward for doing the dungeon! Of course you should have to play through a dungeon if you specifically want that dungeons gear.

The whole point of making the dungeon gear the same as other level 80 exotic gear is so that you aren’t forced to play through it in order to have the best stats. The gear is purely cosmetic. Complaining that ANet is “forcing” you to play through a dungeon just for a purely cosmetic skin that you happen to like is petty.

The entire game is based around cosmetics when it comes to gear, so basically the entire design around cosmetic gear is petty then. More options for “rewards” is better than gating gear behind specific dungeon tokens. I have a ton of CoE tokens and Arah tokens, but I like CM armor. I loathe running CM, it’s boring and i really don’t like the story, so if i want CM i’m forced to play that dungeon over and over, period. It’s poorly thought out since many dungeon tokens are useless to a plethora of people.

I suggested a trader to give people with useless tokens a chance to get something different, ultimately have a single token type for all dungeons and rewarding more tokens for harder dungeons would make sense as well. Fractals rewards 2 token types (not to mention globs and essences) it’s really just out-of-hand at this point. I have 2.5 bank tabs of tokens I prolly will never use, seems like a waste to me.

This dude is arguing about hating the word work. Lmfao log off brah

The number of currencies is comical, but completely understandable. I don’t have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is all of these things taking up bank space. And it’s only going to get worse. Even a collections tab for them wouldn’t help, because you surpass 250 of most of them very quickly. Let them stack much, much higher. When you’re giving up 1/4 of the default bank space solely to hold enough tokens to buy a single ascended fractal backpiece, it’s kind of ridiculous. And that’s just one out of a ton of currencies.

munkiman.3068:

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy.

This is just silly. The dungeon gear is the reward for doing the dungeon! Of course you should have to play through a dungeon if you specifically want that dungeons gear.

The whole point of making the dungeon gear the same as other level 80 exotic gear is so that you aren’t forced to play through it in order to have the best stats. The gear is purely cosmetic. Complaining that ANet is “forcing” you to play through a dungeon just for a purely cosmetic skin that you happen to like is petty.

The entire game is based around cosmetics when it comes to gear, so basically the entire design around cosmetic gear is petty then. More options for “rewards” is better than gating gear behind specific dungeon tokens. I have a ton of CoE tokens and Arah tokens, but I like CM armor. I loathe running CM, it’s boring and i really don’t like the story, so if i want CM i’m forced to play that dungeon over and over, period. It’s poorly thought out since many dungeon tokens are useless to a plethora of people.

I suggested a trader to give people with useless tokens a chance to get something different, ultimately have a single token type for all dungeons and rewarding more tokens for harder dungeons would make sense as well. Fractals rewards 2 token types (not to mention globs and essences) it’s really just out-of-hand at this point. I have 2.5 bank tabs of tokens I prolly will never use, seems like a waste to me.

I think you’re confusing “entire game” with “end-game armor and weapon stats”. They are very different.

The end-game gear design has nothing to do with your petty complaining, trying to equate them is confusing, bizarre, and most importantly, wrong.

The CoE and Arah tokens come directly from running those dungeons. That means you ran those dungeons over and over for tokens you don’t even need -_-

As for your personal issues with CM, that’s your own problem. It’s impossible to match the personal tastes in skins for all players with their personal taste in dungeon content, without compromising their core design. If you really want those CM skins bad enough, then they’ll justify the grind.

As for the trader, that would directly contradict ANets design philosophy for their dungeons. If such a trader existed, everyone would only play the dungeon that gave the most tokens/hour and ignore the rest; obviously ANet doesn’t want this.

BlasiuS.8961:

I think you’re confusing “entire game” with “end-game armor and weapon stats”. They are very different.

The end-game gear design has nothing to do with your petty complaining, trying to equate them is confusing, bizarre, and most importantly, wrong.

It’d be nice if you stopped with how it’s petty complaining, i’m not even complaining. You’re pointing to “end-game armor and weapon stats” i’m pointing to aesthetics, not confusing, bizarre or wrong by any stretch. At this point you just seem to be arguing for the sake of it.

BlasiuS.8961:

The CoE and Arah tokens come directly from running those dungeons. That means you ran those dungeons over and over for tokens you don’t even need -_-

I run them since i enjoy them. i also do them to help people get their tokens and achievements for completing them. I don’t need ectos or runes right now either, doesn’t mean i’ll stop salvaging armor/weapons for them and sell them on the TP, something i i’m not really interested in doing with these practically useless tokens. I could just do that with what i get for the tokens, but i’ll hold on to them to see if there are any changes to the system for a bit longer.

BlasiuS.8961:

As for your personal issues with CM, that’s your own problem. It’s impossible to match the personal tastes in skins for all players with their personal taste in dungeon content, without compromising their core design. If you really want those CM skins bad enough, then they’ll justify the grind.

As for the trader, that would directly contradict ANets design philosophy for their dungeons. If such a trader existed, everyone would only play the dungeon that gave the most tokens/hour and ignore the rest; obviously ANet doesn’t want this.

It’s not “impossible to match the personal tastes in skins for all players with their personal taste in dungeon content, without compromising their core design”, i’m giving an example how it is possible. I’ve not read or heard of anything saying this is a core design philosophy choice. But of course, this thread is entirely about questioning the excessive amount of currencies, which is what i’ve been doing, along with offering a possible solution.

I suppose it’s possible you have a finger on the “ANet doesn’t want this”, so i’ll take your entire blatant assumptions with a grain of salt. As far as grind “we don’t make grindy games” so more than likely, it’s something they probably don’t want.

Ursan.7846:

1. Do you like unique rewards for unique content.
2. Do you like to be rewarded on a non-RNG basis.

If the answer to the 2 questions is yes, then different currencies are needed.

Don’t get me wrong, I do like these two things. I also think this point is harped on a lot by the general public, and there’s nothing I hate more than the general public

However, I mention from time to time in these threads that the OPs are not entirely wrong. The currency system could have been streamlined greatly, and it would be nice (though not urgent) for ArenaNet to work on this a little bit.

I offered suggestions in the past about ways that I might have tackled these issues. Here’s an example of one:

Dungeon tokens feel clunky because they are an item, a token, and thus need to be carried, stored, and retrieved. They feel like a currency because they feel like money, a tangible object that you have to manage.

What if Dungeons instead offered reputation points with the NPCs that you assist, and were not an item but a simple counter/meter viewable in the hero panel? Sure, it may be currency by another name, but it will definitely feel less cumbersome to purchase favors (gear, consumables) in exchange for your reputation with a certain group of NPCs.

In addition, if HoTW gave you reputation with the Kodan, for example, there could be the potential for adding other theme-appropriate ways to acquire such reputation and thus increase the variety of ways to acquire HoTW gear. This would have a much better, smoother feel than just doling out more tokens.

Again, this is not something that seems urgent. Despite the fact that it is indeed a bit frustrating for a new player to grasp what everything is for without using a wiki, it’s not game breaking.

Let me step in and add this. Dungeon tokens are rewards for that particular dungeon. The game allows you to exchange them for a related item. This is great, because you can then get whatever you want. On the flip side, you can’t get a item from a different dungeon. It forces you to make a choice on which reward you want.

Sure this is a currency specific to that dungeon. But would you rather the item randomly drop at the end, instead of the ability to get an item you want? People already complain that they can’t get the specific Fractal Weapon as a drop due to RNG. Imagine the backlash if you only had a chance to get items from a dungeon, and all at random. So you have three sets of armor (Light, Medium, and Heavy), with six pieces each. I’m no math wiz, but say there’s a 1 in 50 shot at an armor piece drop each time you finish a dungeon. Then you’d only have a 1 in 18 chance to get an armor piece you want. The odds are, like, a bazzillion to one that you’d get a full set. No thank you sir.

For me it’s not an if/or scenario, the dungeon token was a good idea at first. It’s just not a long term thing really.

Another thread in suggestion (i think) talked about an armor/weapon wardrobe. Similar to pvp, it would hold all the looks, it might be a good incentive to some players to actually collect dungeon armor at that point.

munkiman.3068:

BlasiuS.8961:

As for your personal issues with CM, that’s your own problem. It’s impossible to match the personal tastes in skins for all players with their personal taste in dungeon content, without compromising their core design. If you really want those CM skins bad enough, then they’ll justify the grind.

As for the trader, that would directly contradict ANets design philosophy for their dungeons. If such a trader existed, everyone would only play the dungeon that gave the most tokens/hour and ignore the rest; obviously ANet doesn’t want this.

It’s not “impossible to match the personal tastes in skins for all players with their personal taste in dungeon content, without compromising their core design”, i’m giving an example how it is possible. I’ve not read or heard of anything saying this is a core design philosophy choice. But of course, this thread is entirely about questioning the excessive amount of currencies, which is what i’ve been doing, along with offering a possible solution.

Your solution directly goes against the dungeon design, so no that’s not a solution; at least, not for ANet.

You’re clearly not questioning excessive currencies at all:

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy. I get the wvw badges however and the glory. But, pve gated stuff is silly. I like the concept behind it, just not the implementation. If i run Arah because i enjoy it, why can’t i get CM stuff? CM takes 1/3 of the time to run.

rather, you’re just complaining that you can’t convert dungeon tokens of one type into another so that you can get the CM skin you want. That’s a totally separate issue that has nothing to do with the amount of currencies in the game.

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy. I get the wvw badges however and the glory. But, pve gated stuff is silly. I like the concept behind it, just not the implementation. If i run Arah because i enjoy it, why can’t i get CM stuff? CM takes 1/3 of the time to run.

rather, you’re just complaining that you can’t convert dungeon tokens of one type into another so that you can get the CM skin you want. That’s a totally separate issue that has nothing to do with the amount of currencies in the game.

How 10 different types of dungeon “currencies” isn’t a rational for an excessive amount of currencies is beyond your scope of thinking, apparently.

munkiman.3068:

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy. I get the wvw badges however and the glory. But, pve gated stuff is silly. I like the concept behind it, just not the implementation. If i run Arah because i enjoy it, why can’t i get CM stuff? CM takes 1/3 of the time to run.

rather, you’re just complaining that you can’t convert dungeon tokens of one type into another so that you can get the CM skin you want. That’s a totally separate issue that has nothing to do with the amount of currencies in the game.

How 10 different types of dungeon “currencies” isn’t a rational for an excessive amount of currencies is beyond your scope of thinking, apparently.

It’s one token type per dungeon, how is that excessive.

Anyway that’s besides the point; what is “excessive” is purely subjective, so unless you have a concrete definition don’t bother trying to belittle my scope of thinking, thanks.

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy. I get the wvw badges however and the glory. But, pve gated stuff is silly. I like the concept behind it, just not the implementation. If i run Arah because i enjoy it, why can’t i get CM stuff? CM takes 1/3 of the time to run.

rather, you’re just complaining that you can’t convert dungeon tokens of one type into another so that you can get the CM skin you want. That’s a totally separate issue that has nothing to do with the amount of currencies in the game.

How 10 different types of dungeon “currencies” isn’t a rational for an excessive amount of currencies is beyond your scope of thinking, apparently.

It’s one token type per dungeon, how is that excessive.

Anyway that’s besides the point; what is “excessive” is purely subjective, so unless you have a concrete definition don’t bother trying to belittle my scope of thinking, thanks.

Interesting, you come in with “petty complaining” on my behalf and now i’m belittling you? Ok, I apologize.

excessive: more than is necessary, normal, or desirable. I don’t need a concrete number to debate the topic. It’s obviously my opinion, not sure why people continue to want some concrete evidence, this isn’t rocket surgery.

Also interesting on how you lumped dungeon tokens into one currency, which is pretty much what i proposed to begin with. Saying one token type per dungeon, when there are 9 different traders with 10 different currencies all trading unique things to me is excessive. And that’s just dungeons.

Regardless, there’s no point debating it. You obviously have a different opinion on the matter.

munkiman.3068:

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

BlasiuS.8961:

munkiman.3068:

I’d much rather see a token trader… If i don’t want to play a certain dungeon, but want the skin i shouldn’t be forced to play it. There really isn’t a good reason for all these currencies other than forcing people to play content they might not enjoy. I get the wvw badges however and the glory. But, pve gated stuff is silly. I like the concept behind it, just not the implementation. If i run Arah because i enjoy it, why can’t i get CM stuff? CM takes 1/3 of the time to run.

rather, you’re just complaining that you can’t convert dungeon tokens of one type into another so that you can get the CM skin you want. That’s a totally separate issue that has nothing to do with the amount of currencies in the game.

How 10 different types of dungeon “currencies” isn’t a rational for an excessive amount of currencies is beyond your scope of thinking, apparently.

It’s one token type per dungeon, how is that excessive.

Anyway that’s besides the point; what is “excessive” is purely subjective, so unless you have a concrete definition don’t bother trying to belittle my scope of thinking, thanks.

Also interesting on how you lumped dungeon tokens into one currency, which is pretty much what i proposed to begin with. Saying one token type per dungeon, when there are 9 different traders with 10 different currencies all trading unique things to me is excessive. And that’s just dungeons.

Regardless, there’s no point debating it. You obviously have a different opinion on the matter.

No I didn’t lump them into one currency. kitten they’re not even currency, they’re tokens. And I said one token type per dungeon. Which is exactly what the system is. I’m not double-talking. It’s a very simple and straightforward system.

Having a different opinion is not the problem. But arguing back and forth about subjective opinions on what is “excessive” is a barrier to discussion.

If there’s going to be a meaningful debate on whether or not we have too many currencies, we first have to define what “too many” means.

BlasiuS.8961:

No I didn’t lump them into one currency. kitten they’re not even currency, they’re tokens. And I said one token type per dungeon. Which is exactly what the system is. I’m not double-talking. It’s a very simple and straightforward system.

Having a different opinion is not the problem. But arguing back and forth about subjective opinions on what is “excessive” is a barrier to discussion.

If there’s going to be a meaningful debate on whether or not we have too many currencies, we first have to define what “too many” means.

So the issue is that tokens aren’t currency now? I’m going off the OP where tokens were mentioned as currency, fine call them all tokens, call them all ham sandwiches for all it matters. We are clearly trading one type of thing for another, they obviously don’t meet a world definition of currency since they clearly aren’t interchangeable and hold next to no value (i.e. Gold, silver or copper).

The system as it’s designed holds a very short term value, meaning once you get what you want either they are entirely useless even though you do the dungeon for other reason and earn them anyway. Or, people won’t bother doing this particular content, since the rewards are in essence practically useless. You can’t trade em, you can’t sell em, you can’t even do much with the gear but toss it down the mystic toilet or salvage it. This goes with a lot of the different “currencies” in the game, over the long run they are practically valueless.

This is essentially my issue with what i feel is an excessive amount of currencies. In my eyes 1 practically valueless currency is excessive. Great i have 5 million fun house tokens (which took me 15 minutes-2.5 hours to get) that i can trade for a clown nose… Fantastic!

munkiman.3068:

meaning once you get what you want either they are entirely useless even though you do the dungeon for other reason and earn them anyway.

“Entirely useless?” That is completely and utterly untrue.

If you have no interest in dungeon armor/weapon skins, you can use these tokens to…

1. If 70+, can purchase rares and salvage for ectos. One run is 60 tokens. That is 2 rares. Going with an average of 0.8 ectos per rare, and 25s for ectos, that’s 40s you earned.

2. If <70, can purchase exotics and MF them into exotics that can sell. I do this with shields. 210 * 4 tokens = 1 ~3-5G exotic, more if you’re lucky. Assume 5G per 840 tokens. That is 14 runs. That is an average of 35.7s per run.

Your assumption that these tokens are “useless” is completely false. They can be converted into gold (at quite decent rates). You’re purposefully ignoring the value of salvaging/MFing them in order to further your argument, and I find that incredible dishonest. You’re applying your subjective idea of “entirely worthless” to something that has very real value.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

meaning once you get what you want either they are entirely useless even though you do the dungeon for other reason and earn them anyway.

“Entirely useless?” That is completely and utterly untrue.

If you have no interest in dungeon armor/weapon skins, you can use these tokens to…

1. If 70+, can purchase rares and salvage for ectos. One run is 60 tokens. That is 2 rares. Going with an average of 0.8 ectos per rare, and 25s for ectos, that’s 40s you earned.

2. If <70, can purchase exotics and MF them into exotics that can sell. I do this with shields. 210 * 4 tokens = 1 ~3-5G exotic, more if you’re lucky. Assume 5G per 840 tokens. That is 14 runs. That is an average of 35.7s per run.

Your assumption that these tokens are “useless” is completely false. They can be converted into gold (at quite decent rates). You’re purposefully ignoring the value of salvaging/MFing them in order to further your argument, and I find that incredible dishonest. You’re applying your subjective idea of “entirely worthless” to something that has very real value.

Useless and worthless are 2 different things, but you’re right i should have said practically useless as i did in a later statement. I said practically valueless. Those rates are horrible and i did mention doing exactly that in a previous post. Try to keep up, if you’re going to blast me for something i already mentioned.

i think there are too many currencies, but i also think that for token management, there needs to be a system in place that frees up valued storage space in our account banks.

i think that the dungeon tokens could be counted like laurels and gems – no space-taking tokens/items, and logged in your account as small symbols in your inventory/account. you could still get the armor and stuffs you want, it just would be counted and tracked like gems and laurels (saving space).

i was fine with Gold, Karma, and badges (glory okay too, i guess, but i haven’t dabbled in pvp). as new stuff is usually introduced with new currencies, i feel that maybe it’s time to scale back on the currencies, and just stick to the basics. more options for karma arose, like gambling orr boxes and other exotic items like back-pieces, and i am fine with that, because i gain karma by “just playing”. i think karma should tie into much more, and instead of introducing new currency, also add alternatives to each. if i do not have 1800 tokens, make me spend some karma and gold, instead.

also, to add, please stop making rare or exotic materials currency, such as the addition of +ectos for earrings. i am fine with the laurel count, but making them cost ectos is overkill. i cannot imagine what is in store for ascended weapons and armor down the road. maybe we will need laurels + 500 of a rare material to purchase new shinies?

in short:

1) keep the space hogging tokens out of inventory, count them like gems and laurels
2) gold + karma alternatives to tokens?
3) do not add rare materials in the cost of stuff.

munkiman.3068:

Useless and worthless are 2 different things, but you’re right i should have said practically useless as i did in a later statement. I said practically valueless. Those rates are horrible and i did mention doing exactly that in a previous post. Try to keep up, if you’re going to blast me for something i already mentioned.

You did mention it. Then dismissed it as “worthless” and “useless.” Practically. What I’m arguing is that these actions you dismissed still hold significant value.

How are “Rates are horrible?”

Assume a 30 minute run of a 70+ dungeon. Assume a 26s boss, and two 10s bosses, and around 20s in vendor trash. You can convert the 60 tokens into 40s, as per my calculations previously.

It means 37% of your gold earnings were from the tokens themselves. An extra 40s with 30 min spent is a “horrible rate?” (You’ve increased your gold earnings by 50% because of the tokens). Are you saying an extra 40s is useless? Worthless? What?

You keep on tossing this subjective “Oh these rates are horrible.” You have absolutely no basis for this observations except “I personally think these tokens to be valued more.” I’m giving you numbers to show you that they actually make up for quite a significant portion of your dungeon earnings.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

Useless and worthless are 2 different things, but you’re right i should have said practically useless as i did in a later statement. I said practically valueless. Those rates are horrible and i did mention doing exactly that in a previous post. Try to keep up, if you’re going to blast me for something i already mentioned.

You did mention it. Then dismissed it as “worthless” and “useless.” Practically. What I’m arguing is that these actions you dismissed still hold significant value.

How are “Rates are horrible?”

Assume a 30 minute run of a 70+ dungeon. Assume a 26s boss, and two 10s bosses, and around 20s in vendor trash. You can convert the 60 tokens into 40s, as per my calculations previously.

It means 37% of your gold earnings were from the tokens themselves. An extra 40s with 30 min spent is a “horrible rate?” (You’ve increased your gold earnings by 50% because of the tokens). Are you saying an extra 40s is useless? Worthless? What?

You keep on tossing this subjective “Oh these rates are horrible.” You have absolutely no basis for this observations except “I personally think these tokens to be valued more.” I’m giving you numbers to show you that they actually make up for quite a significant portion of your dungeon earnings.

Ectos are 20s and dropping. The rates are horrible because they are based on if you get lucky with either salvage or the mystic toilet. A couple world bosses will give you the same amount for far less time than most dungeons. For a fairly corner stone piece of content the rewards are pretty lacking, not to mention the token system itself.

munkiman.3068:

Ectos are 20s and dropping.

Assuming 20s, you’re still getting 32s per run instead of 40s per run.

At 32s, that’s still 33% of your earnings from dungeons are from tokens. It still means a 50% increase in your dungeon earnings due to tokens.

This makes it “horrible” now?

munkiman.3068:

The rates are horrible because they are based on if you get lucky with either salvage or the mystic toilet.

Yes, it is random, which is why you use an expected value like 0.8 to do calculations. That does not make rates “horrible.”

munkiman.3068:

A couple world bosses will give you the same amount for far less time than most dungeons.

You think salvaging is “horrible” because of randomness, and you tout world bosses which also has a random element that you can’t control (Spawn time)? What?

Assume 1.5 rares per event. at 20s a rare, you earn about 30s from a world event. Lets assume 35s to include vendor trash. Average world event takes about 10 minutes, but since the spawns are random, it’s very rare that you can fit in 3 world bosses. Lets assume you fit in 2 events in 30 mins. 70s?

But this is completely ignoring the other rewards you earn from dungeons (Boss drops, vendor trash, 75% to level exp [And skill points = value also]). Using my previous assumptions, you get around 100s with tokens and everything included.

World bosses are profitable, but you’re delusional if you think they’re more profitable than dungeons by a significant amount, especially taking into considering the significant amount of dead time waiting for the bosses to spawn. (Also, there are plenty of dungeon paths that can be done in under 20min, such as all the AC paths, CoF 1/2, CoE 1/2, HotW1, etc… A CoF 1/2 run will net you 120+ tokens in around 20 minutes, which is 64s in 20mins. )

munkiman.3068:

For a fairly corner stone piece of content the rewards are pretty lacking, not to mention the token system itself.

So to you an extra 32s on top of everything you earn in a dungeon is lacking? You’re spending around 30 minutes in order to earn approximately 1G, with the tokens included. This is also completely disregarding the value these tokens have for armor/weapon skins (Which we’re purposefully disregarding in this argument, but it’s there.)

It’s your personal opinion of course, but I do wonder how efficient are you at farming to think earning approximately 1G in 30 minutes is “pretty lacking.”

I’m going to try not to get too far off topic and say, the event timers (at least on NSP) are fairly accurate, the wait time to get a 5 man into the dungeon is often longer and that’s usually just one run.

I’m not disregarding your numbers, I’m saying they are poor compared to even just playing events in orr. There’s a reason people are running those events over doing dungeons, they simply earn more in less time and don’t require LFG. Just in Heavy Moldy bags alone i can earn more per hour than any dungeon, just running the temple zerg or running event chains in orr.

It’s not even about a significant amount, dungeons take time to get going, they take people that know what to do and there is always a fair chance at a fail or a drop/kick. Silly little things like that make dungeon runs far less lucrative then just running from world event to world event or quest chain to quest chain.

Dungeon tokens are really a small example of too many “currencies”. It’d be an entirely different story if these were interchangeable or held some G value that didn’t require tossing things in the Mystic Toilet or messing with salvage kits at even a .8 rate of return. Yes, obviously my opinion, but i can earn more doing the aforementioned stuff without LFG spam or standing around waiting for a run.

Yes, we definitely have too many currencies.

If there was some way to exchange tokens that would be great. OK, so not dungeon tokens for another dungeon’s tokens (that defeats the purpose of having separate token systems for each dungeon). But there’s all kinds of exchanges we could make.

I have an odd number of dungeon tokens sitting around, that I can’t buy anything with and I can’t find people to run with. It would be nice to be able to give them to a ‘Dungeon Explorer’ NPC who would give me gold or karma in exchange. Or, we could exchange them for crafting mats or something, just like laurels. Basically, I want a way to clear these odd-numbers stacks out of my inventory and to get something in return.

And there should be some way to use up old event currencies. I know people who had captains council commendations and couldn’t use them.

munkiman.3068:

I’m going to try not to get too far off topic and say, the event timers (at least on NSP) are fairly accurate, the wait time to get a 5 man into the dungeon is often longer and that’s usually just one run.

…This really strains my belief that you play this game. Are you seriously saying that because the event timers are accurate, there is no randomness in the boss spawns? I hope you realize that even if the timers are completely accurate, Jormag still has a random 1:30 window, Maw has a 1 hour window, SB/Teq/Wurm have 30 min windows, and FE/Golem have 15 min windows. kittenis the only one completely without a random element (and even then, the collection pre-event takes a variable amount of time depending on the amount of players).

This is in addition to the fact that the timers may not align properly for you to be able to hop from one to another. Two bosses can spawn at the same time. Or the time spent waiting between them can be long because the timers aren’t aligned. You have to be pretty lucky to be able to hop from one event to the other without too much downtime.

It’s incredibly hypocritical to call the process of salvaging “horrible” due to randomness, and in the same breathe tout the amazing profitability of the World Bosses which are also ruled by an element of randomness and luck. I hope you realize this.

munkiman.3068:

I’m not disregarding your numbers,

You are. Up until now all you have done is wave your hands around and say “This is better than that.” “This earning rate is horrible because I said so.”

munkiman.3068:

I’m saying they are poor compared to even just playing events in orr.

Since the Orr event nerfs (stupid champion spawns) I average around 3G/hour in Orr.

Using my previous assumptions, You earn about 2G/hour running sub-optimal dungeons (More if you speed clear the more profitable ones like AC, SE, CoF, CoE. An AC 1/2/3 run gets you about 3.4G in an hour without omnoms, with about 1G from it due to tokens. A CoF 1/2 run takes about 30 minutes, and earns you about 2.3G, again without omnoms)

Anyways, 2G vs 3G is poor? “Horrible?” What are you, some kind of farming beast obsessed with maximum efficiency?

munkiman.3068:

There’s a reason people are running those events over doing dungeons, they simply earn more in less time and don’t require LFG. Just in Heavy Moldy bags alone i can earn more per hour than any dungeon, just running the temple zerg or running event chains in orr.

1. You make an assumption that more people run Orr vs dungeons. You are basing this one what?
2. Love your hypocrisy about randomness again. You call salvaging horrible because randomness, but tout the profitability of Heavy Moldy bags, with its two-layers of randomness (rate of its drop, rate of what materials it provides. Even if you sell them directly without opening it, its drop rate is still random.)
3. Again, though there may be differences in the profitability rate, as I stated above, you must have an incredibly warped sense of “horrible” “lacking” “poor” if you think 66% of MAXIMUM EFFICIENCY FARMING can be described by those words. And again, this is completely disregarding the value these tokens have for their unique skins (which we’re not discussing, but IT STILL EXISTS, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.)

munkiman.3068:

It’s not even about a significant amount, dungeons take time to get going, they take people that know what to do and there is always a fair chance at a fail or a drop/kick. Silly little things like that make dungeon runs far less lucrative then just running from world event to world event or quest chain to quest chain.

And I believe you have fully quantified how these “silly little things” affect the overall profitability of dungeons?

Or sure, lets trumpet all the obstacles and difficulties dungeon runners face, while completely ignoring that problems running from world event to world event has (which I have clearly stated) in order to back up my point, while showing absolutely no analysis or hard evidence,. Incredible arguments you have there.

munkiman.3068:

Dungeon tokens are really a small example of too many “currencies”. It’d be an entirely different story if these were interchangeable or held some G value that didn’t require tossing things in the Mystic Toilet or messing with salvage kits at even a .8 rate of return. Yes, obviously my opinion, but i can earn more doing the aforementioned stuff without LFG spam or standing around waiting for a run.

I don’t understand. It’s the process you have a problem with? If you had an exchange which straight up gave you 20s for 60 tokens, would you be happier? Or would you be still unhappy because “IMO, the exchange is horrible!” Because you’re being inconsistent with your point.

One more thing.

munkiman.3068:

without LFG spam or standing around waiting for a run.

www.gw2lfg.com

Do you seriously LFG spam? No wonder you’re having trouble finding groups for dungeons.