Guild Wars 2

Necrollis, it isn’t a matter of arguing that there is no impact but it is a question of proofs and what the impact actually is. There’s a lot of speculation but I haven’t seen anything to suggest that bots are significantly impacting the economy. My exposure is limited so I am curious if people have seen something else to suggest otherwise.

Obi, using one item that is extremely high value and low quantity isn’t a good example of ‘botting’ behavior. If anything, that’s player behavior. I know many players who do that exact kind of thing – they look for a high value item and speculate that as monetary supply increases the value will go up. Or, they believe that some people would pay far more for the item so they take a chance on buying it and relisting it.

Rastamon, those aren’t necessarily individuals selling that much. The numbers are the total being sold across all servers. Over two million people bought this game. If 3/4 of them have stopped playing those numbers are well within reason. Further, some traders attempt to corner the market. Are they bots? No, they are just players.

I know a few EVE folk who came to GW2 and have been amusing themselves on the trading house. Some have thousands of items up for sale and thousands of buy orders. But, again, they aren’t bots.

We know that bots exist and I hope that ArenaNet finds some way to destroy them all sooner than later. We can all do our part by reporting them (which I do for every bot I see and they typically disappear within a couple of days at most) to help out.

But, one shouldn’t make claims if they can’t back them with facts or, at least, observations.

As an example – yesterday I ordered 10 000 silver ores for 10copper a piece (transmuting them to gold ores is profitable) – you have probably seen like 10 134 silver ores ordered by 3-4 people – I’m not bot (unless with very advanced AI so I can respond here… shoot, said too much) and I’m surely not the only one buying in thousands (I spent like 60g daily on AH on cheap items, so go figure how much stuff it is).

whiran.1473:

I know a few EVE folk who came to GW2 and have been amusing themselves on the trading house. Some have thousands of items up for sale and thousands of buy orders. But, again, they aren’t bots.

We know that bots exist and I hope that ArenaNet finds some way to destroy them all sooner than later. We can all do our part by reporting them (which I do for every bot I see and they typically disappear within a couple of days at most) to help out.

But, one shouldn’t make claims if they can’t back them with facts or, at least, observations.

^^ this.

The condescension exhibited by some folks in this thread is laughable.

YES – bots are a problem. If I had to guess, I would say that Anet is working on automated systems of detection, and need to allow some of these bots to run for a bit as a result (to gather data, etc.).

Have bots destroyed the economy? Nope. I have a Guild filled with people making a killing on the market everyday….despite the large influx of certain types of material(s) from bots. Eve Online’s been dealing with botting for years – there are still thousands upon thousands of bots in that game, yet it has the most thriving economy of any MMO in existence.

There are a few things that even those commenting in this thread who are apparently “too smart” for the rest of us need to know:

1. Just because you can’t figure out how to make a profit and/or earn Gold at a reliable rate, doesn’t mean it can’t be done.

- I’ve made in excess of 500 Gold thus far on the TP, and there are dozens of people in our Guild who have found reliable spots to farm loot that are bot-free (we make a run to one of the better ones almost every night).

2. Anet IS dealing with the bots – despite what some may post/think

- Alot of very smart folks work at ANet. Do you honestly think they are just going to allow the game to be overrun by botters? While I’m surprised that a game that was in development this long didn’t already have systems in place to deal with this issue in a more quick & efficient manner, I doubt they’re going to flush the game down the toilet by ignoring the problem.

whiran.1473:

Necrollis, it isn’t a matter of arguing that there is no impact but it is a question of proofs and what the impact actually is. There’s a lot of speculation but I haven’t seen anything to suggest that bots are significantly impacting the economy. My exposure is limited so I am curious if people have seen something else to suggest otherwise.

I gave an example (may have been in another thread though). If you spend as much time on the TP as I do, you’ll see them everywhere.

Example: Player-X finds 6 items that are holding and have held a decent sell/buy spread for hours. That player goes in and makes a bid. IMMEDIATELY, 2 units of that item, by one individual, go up at the break even cost. When player-X let’s say, just tries to fish it out, and buys one of the units placed at the break even, immediately the bought item is replaced by the same one individual who placed the original first 2 units. Player-X moves randomly around the other items in the same category, and the same calculated items, only to find, that the exact same thing happens on these items as well, instantly. There is no WAY, a human brain could perform those types of counter-maneuvers.

As a result, the spread closes in within minutes, and no one is able to buy/sell on that spread without taking a loss. Because of one pre-planned bot response to player-x, everyone else that comes along will likewise find the spread closed, and ultimately locked off by the bot.

I’d say that’s a pretty good example.

So you’re saying the bot responds to your order but hasn’t for the previous several hours where the spread was holding?

Assuming that what you’re talking about is actually a bot (though I can’t see why anyone would want to write a bot that does this, except perhaps to troll Necrollis), then the bots are actually helping a lot of players by doing so, while hurting themselves.

lackofcheese.5617:

Assuming that what you’re talking about is actually a bot (though I can’t see why anyone would want to write a bot that does this, except perhaps to troll Necrollis), then the bots are actually helping a lot of players by doing so.

LuLz, ok that was actually funny.

But no, seriously, you don’t see why it would be beneficial for a bot to do this? Just curious.

Closing the spread benefits the majority of players that tend to buy from sell orders and sell to buy orders, as they pay less for what they buy, and get more from what they sell. This benefit comes hand in hand with lower, or nonexistant, profits for traders.

If I was writing a trading bot, I don’t see why I would want to write one that intentionally narrows the spread on an item.

Necrollis.4372:

When player-X let’s say, just tries to fish it out, and buys one of the units placed at the break even, immediately the bought item is replaced by the same one individual who placed the original first 2 units.

You have no way of knowing that this is the same individual.

Necrollis.4372:

There is no WAY, a human brain could perform those types of counter-maneuvers.

One human brain? Probably not. But thousands of human brains definitely could.

Rodarin.6058:

Completed crafted items prices are a complete joke. Have been since day one. Absolutely no reason to craft other than for EXP (and I think they nerfed that) or for something to do. Surely arent going to make or even save money doing it.

This is not the problem of economy, but crafting.
1. Everyone can craft everything. No receipts/schematics means there is no need for educated crafter. If You have mats, You can do it. Everyone crafts for himself.
2. Crafting gives a lot of exp., so everyone is crafting.

Too many crafters, not enough buyers.

Hippocampus.8470:

So you’re saying the bot responds to your order but hasn’t for the previous several hours where the spread was holding?

There were no other consistent transactions taking place on those items/spreads. A trader that knows what they’re doing, looks for opportunities like these (takes notes, watches the buy/sell walls, the amount of units per sellers, ya know, to kinda get a feel for it before they start dumping money into – secret stuff like that).

One detail in particular, was that the bot always placed bids on threes (7.03, 13.23, 11.43,) even if it meant leaving needless gaps between itself and the previous bid order. It was almost humorous to watch, as every now and again, someone else would come in and place a bid somewhere in that gap the bot had left, because literally as fast as you could refresh the tab, up would pop the 2 units by one individual at the break-even mark.

lackofcheese.5617:

You have no way of knowing that this is the same individual.

Uhm, yes I do. It says “2x of Items, listed by 1 player”

What I’m also saying is that bsing and economics is one thing, but now you’re making fun of folks that are doing their best to describe what they’re seeing and experiencing to try and help ArenaNet nail these kittens. Making light of it, really doesn’t make you look legit, and you should probably stop. Just my opinion though.

Necrollis.4372:

Uhm, yes I do. It says “2x of Items, listed by 1 player”

Ah, I understand now. Even then, though, that doesn’t necessarily mean that those 2 items are listed by the same player that was there beforehand; such movements can occur in the blink of an eye on the TP.

Ultimately, I don’t find your example very convincing as it’s only anecdotal and despite doing a lot of trading myself I haven’t really seen this kind of thing. If you can come up with something more detailed, perhaps on a YouTube video, I wouldn’t mind seeing it.

Moreover, there are a few other factors that might explain some what you’ve been seeing, Necrollis.

With regard to placing bids at specific increments like threes, and leaving gaps while doing so, that is much more indicative of a player getting some amusement on the side while trading than it is a bot. If I was writing a bot, I’d want it to step up/down in the minimum possible increments, for the obvious reason that this maximises profits.

One factor that might serve to explain the fact that these “bots” seem to be instantly responding to your orders is dodgy updating behaviour on the TP information panels. For example, the buy order listings are not updated properly when you simply press “Refresh”; instead, they only seem to update when you place a new buy order yourself.

Another factor that definitely plays a role on the TP is simply the sheer number of players. Quite a lot can happen in a very short timespan on the TP as a result of this.

So lets recap.

Bots don’t effect the economy.

If your smart you can outwit a bot playing the AH.

The majority of the 2 million people here will have no problem keeping up with the inflation, that apparently is not being caused by bots what so ever.

There are people who believe they have more control of the market, and are making just as much or more then botters who generally run 10+ accounts at once 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week.

A level 80 whos been 80 for months can make more then an 80 thats been 80 for weeks by simply farming the same level 80 content.

The more the market gets flooded with items the more expensive they will be.

There is no real issue here, because NO ONE has the actual numbers to prove it.

Got it, you win.

Hah what’s wrong with bots?
Bots are almost useless in this game for farming , let me explain why.
As we all know, there is this “anti-farming code” which will reduce your drops to nothing after X ammount of time(or kills).Let’s take a closer look:
Bot starts farming, the first 30 minutes gets many nice drops, after 30 minutes drops start reducing,4 hours later the bot hardly gets any drop.
A player starts farming, the first 30 minutes he gets the same drops as the bot, a bit later he can see that drops have reduced, but he still wants to farm, so he changes area for an other 30 minutes and continue farming with full drop ammount, after 30 minutes he returns to the first spot and farms again, no problems.

The thing is,bots get things the first hours, after that it doesn’t matter if they farm for constant weeks or months, they get useless, while You, You will get all the drops.

A player farming 2 days ,changing spots, can make x20 more than a bot farming a whole week constantly..

At start I did hate that anti farming code, I am a farmer , I farm 24/7, but I can see now how useful it is, and how I can use it on my advantage

John Smith.4610:

Everyone should keep in mind that the value of gold is mostly defined by its scarcity.

Well, no… it’s defined by its relativity to an existing base and the rarity of the items it represents, too.

Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have a problem with gold rarity. It has a problem with most thing’s expense being fine, and then there being another tier above that that skyrockets in price because the drops or method of creation is too rare or infrequent.

Obi.9365:

So lets recap.

Bots don’t effect the economy.

If your smart you can outwit a bot playing the AH.

The majority of the 2 million people here will have no problem keeping up with the inflation, that apparently is not being caused by bots what so ever.

There are people who believe they have more control of the market, and are making just as much or more then botters who generally run 10+ accounts at once 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week.

A level 80 whos been 80 for months can make more then an 80 thats been 80 for weeks by simply farming the same level 80 content.

The more the market gets flooded with items the more expensive they will be.

There is no real issue here, because NO ONE has the actual numbers to prove it.

Got it, you win.

Exactly. Nothing to see here, everything we’re saying can be easily and logically explained away. Just move along now. Unless we record this by video and post it to youtube where someone can hack another email account on us, there is no proof in what we’re saying.

Geesh.

@Plague – totally agree.

There is a huge gap between the price of normal items and the good items. The problem is that players have to farm endlessly and use MF gear to get enough G for the good items.

Or, the other alternative is to sit at the TP looking for the anomalies in spread,or opportunities to manipulate the spread. It also assumes that the player has a decent amount of Gold banked to start with.

In both cases it takes away from the supposed non-grindy nature of the game and impacts casual players the most as they can’t afford the time or money to get halfway decent gear.

There is no inflation but skewed deflation which is just as bad or worse. Low value items have dropped in pice while high value items have increased in price.

This is the real “Current state of the game”

Necrollis.4372:

Unless we record this by video and post it to youtube where someone can hack another email account on us, there is no proof in what we’re saying.

You missed the point. Even if your direct observations are 100% true, you have yet to provide compelling evidence that the TP-based ones are definitely caused by bots, or that bot activity on the TP is significantly impacting the economy.

Sure, maybe it is, but you haven’t yet given sufficient reason for the rest of us to believe it.

On Bots and TP
Bots supplying mats in the TP is one of the reason price declines. The other reason is that players had moved beyond the earlier tiers of crafting, hence resulting drop in price of low tier mats. We have no access to data to justify if it was caused “solely” by botting…nor can we justify the magnitude of price drop contributed by botting. Anyone making definate conclusions that botting causes price drop is only basing on subjective observation and gut feeling.

Does people complaining the economy even knows how an economy works? If an economy doesn’t work to your advantage (i.e: able to sell your things for a profit, able to buy expansive legendary items), it does not necessary means the economy has flaws. Granted, botting can have a severe effect to the economy…but no one buy Anet has the information on how severe the effect is. A collective of bots generating 10g/hr compared to a player base that generates 10000g/hr will have a negligible effect. We can often easily identify bots in a zone while we’re playing…but did we bother to count how many other “normal” players that we encounter? The conclusions drawn through observations are usually biased and the effects exaggerated.

On value of Gold
John has it right. Value of gold, being the primary currency here, is determined by its scarcity. Since it is a fiat currency (not based on anything), it’s value will be largely determined by the amount in circulation. The price of an item is determined by the disparity of it’s supply and demand. The value of gold scales the price accordingly.

surprisingly no mention of plain stupid people’s affect on the economy? 300+ people selling items @ vendor (or vendor +1) is rediculous.

there are also plenty of non-bots with the goal of manipulating the market too. those stacks of ancient bone aren’t necessarily bots. just because one person didn’t farm them all doesn’t mean that one person couldn’t buy them and resell them. there are significant amounts of people that put a lot of effort into controlling the prices of resources (you can see them in action when you look at buy orders that skip several numbers in order to artificially inflate the prices).

anyway, tl;dr: your bot detection algorhythm is extremely unreliable if you’re going by, “that sure a lot of claws…BOTS!”

If there’s one thing more annoying then people playing dumb in a forum, it’s people who come in, pick one or two posts/posters they agree with, and then start screaming the same stupid crap.

If some people would actually read the entire thread before inserting their comical attempts to discredit what others are saying, we might actually get somewhere.

Couple of days ago, there were just a few people complaining about this stuff. Today, there’s dozens. In game, almost every person in my guilds, and contacts list, are furious about it. In another week or two, when hundreds of people are in here raising hell, we’ll see how seriously you get taken (you folks that seem to want to do nothing but irritate the s**t out of others who’ve come here with legitimate concerns, you know who you are).

So go ahead, keep picking at people, like you’ve been doing for days, to every person that’s come in here regarding bots and TP instability/bugs/ripoffs. If you’re not a moderator, you’ve got no business “testing” assertions/claims.. You don’t work for ArenaNet, nor do we have to explain ourselves/concerns/theories to you.

Deuces.

lol there has been 5 bots perfectly scripted running the exact same path which is impossible for humans to do, they have been there for 6 straight days ( i have a fraps from then) and it’s a very popular bot spot shelter’s gate. you’d think the gm’s would you know get rid of them considering the amount of reports they have had.
BTW according to gold selling spam, 1 gold = $1, the botters have already taken over the market. The anti bot code fooks over legit players, bots farm 24/7 so code or no code they get more, why do we hit the bot code in 15minutes with magic find at 200%? This game is fast becoming a massive joke.

1 gold for $1 isn’t such a big deal. If it was 10 gold for $1, that would be a huge problem.

lackofcheese.5617:

1 gold for $1 isn’t such a big deal. If it was 10 gold for $1, that would be a huge problem.

You just couldn’t help yourself could you.

Even without any bots at all, gold farmers could easily afford to sell you 1 gold for $1, considering that they can get away with paying people in sweatshops 10-50c/hr.

It’s entirely possible that bots are having more of an impact on the economy than I thought, but I haven’t seen good enough evidence to suggest this is the case.

lackofcheese.5617:

1 gold for $1 isn’t such a big deal. If it was 10 gold for $1, that would be a huge problem.

It goes to show how far ahead the farmers are in comparison with the overall economy. If you brought $50 worth of gems you would only get 14 gold if you converted it. If you spent $50 at a gold seller, you would get 50 gold. That is a huge difference.

This game has started to go rotten, i don’t care much for it anymore. The bots won this mmo thanks to the makers adding so much stuff to stop them that it stuffs up players and does nothing to hinder the bots who teleport anyway.

yeah people dont get it.

Anet has a fairly static gold price, all sellers have to do is beat that. However there are so many gold sellers they are in competition with each other. They actually have more of a ‘mini game’ than the actual players do.

The average right now is $10.00 worth of gems gets you 2G 40S. That makes each gold ‘worth’ $4.17. It will obviously fluctuate but call it spreads of $4.00 and $4.50 if you’ like. With G that ‘expensive’ through the in game trade option why would gold sellers sell it for what they are selling it for?

I just checked Google and simply input GW2 gold, got about 312,000 results. Clicked on just the top 3 or 4. 1 place has 50G on SBI (my server) for 46.87, MUCH cheaper than the legit exchange, but way higher than the average; another has it for 35.70, another has it for 36.86, the last one I checked was 39.37.

Obviously I am not going to buy gold, but there are thousands and probably tens of thousands of people who will.

Now that the gold sellers and botters are in full swing that is why gem prices and that exchanges has completely crashed, and will continue to get worse. NO ONE is buying gems, especially to trade for gold. Not when you can get gold from a third party for pennies on the dollar.

I suspect if people keep playing the game the in game gold trade into gems will be around 40 or 50 per gold. Its around 225 right now, and has been declining steadily for a month.

So while people can say botters and gold farmers dont have any effect they just dont get it. even if botters sold everything to a vendor and in turn that gold was sold through third party gold sellers it would be bad enough, but since they can use the system in place and double dip so to speak it makes it so that the economy is a complete mess. Add in the exploits and what not that took place right after release and the economy is now completely broken, and there is very little that can be done about it.

Rodarin.6058:

yeah people dont get it.

Anet has a fairly static gold price, all sellers have to do is beat that. However there are so many gold sellers they are in competition with each other. They actually have more of a ‘mini game’ than the actual players do.

The average right now is $10.00 worth of gems gets you 2G 40S. That makes each gold ‘worth’ $4.17. It will obviously fluctuate but call it spreads of $4.00 and $4.50 if you’ like. With G that ‘expensive’ through the in game trade option why would gold sellers sell it for what they are selling it for?

I just checked Google and simply input GW2 gold, got about 312,000 results. Clicked on just the top 3 or 4. 1 place has 50G on SBI (my server) for 46.87, MUCH cheaper than the legit exchange, but way higher than the average; another has it for 35.70, another has it for 36.86, the last one I checked was 39.37.

Obviously I am not going to buy gold, but there are thousands and probably tens of thousands of people who will.

Now that the gold sellers and botters are in full swing that is why gem prices and that exchanges has completely crashed, and will continue to get worse. NO ONE is buying gems, especially to trade for gold. Not when you can get gold from a third party for pennies on the dollar.

I suspect if people keep playing the game the in game gold trade into gems will be around 40 or 50 per gold. Its around 225 right now, and has been declining steadily for a month.

So while people can say botters and gold farmers dont have any effect they just dont get it. even if botters sold everything to a vendor and in turn that gold was sold through third party gold sellers it would be bad enough, but since they can use the system in place and double dip so to speak it makes it so that the economy is a complete mess. Add in the exploits and what not that took place right after release and the economy is now completely broken, and there is very little that can be done about it.

Imo – majority of ppl crying about “bots completely destroying economy” have no idea how to make money on AH and/or no clue how fifo market works.
Bots do affect AH, but not as much as you imagine and not always in “bad ways”.

Rodarin.6058:

I suspect if people keep playing the game the in game gold trade into gems will be around 40 or 50 per gold. Its around 225 right now, and has been declining steadily for a month.

You are aware that both prices fluctuate together, right? So if 1g gets you 40-50 gems, it will mean something around 60-70 gems will give you 1g, which is less than $1 per gold. When gold-to-gems gets worse, it improves the situation for people who have gems and want gold, and vice versa.

Cisza.9540:

Bots do affect AH, but not as much as you imagine and not always in “bad ways”.

Yeah, a lot of the examples given of alleged bots are cases where the bid-ask spread gets closed very quickly. Which is fantastic for the people who are just looking to buy and sell items instead of using the TP to milk out a profit.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if I am playing the same game as everyone else.

I am not what you would call a power user, at least not economy-wise. I sell things, sure. But just what I find. I sell every single thing I find for the best price I can — whether that is sold straight out on the TP, vendored, or salvaged and the materials sold. I don’t play the market at all. I simply sell what I find.

My main character is level 56 and so far I have been able to afford three character slots, four bank tabs and ten mystic forge stones with gold alone. I haven’t spent a dime on the BLTC, I just buy gems with gold and buy the items I want with that.

As far as I’m concerned this economy is doing well. Yes, there are a lot of junk item drops that are falling beneath their price floor, but honestly? That is to be expected. Almost every MMO encounters that issue.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if I am playing the same game as everyone else.

Yeah – I wouldn’t pay much attention to these “doom and gloomers”. Aside from the valid concerns about the botting issue(s) (which I’m sure WILL be addressed asap), all I really see here is so called “experts” (you know, the guys that “do this for a living”) who seem to think the only viable commodities to trade in volume are the few that hit the front page.

Hell, I trade in over a dozen different commodities that move 3000-4000 units AN HOUR, with a margin of 3-4c that will probably never hit that front page (at least I hope they won’t), are not affected by botting (and won’t be, due to their nature), and have virtually zero competition.

….but I’m not going to argue with the armchair economists. By all means – keep telling as many people as you can how margins from the market are drying up, and that there’s no possible way to turn a consistent profit. The more people who believe you, the better it is for my wallet ;-)

It’s useless to debate the significance of bots on the game. Only ArenaNet can really determine that significance. You can’t ask another player to prove such a thing. We all know that the game is rampant with bots, as you have to be blind to not notice such a thing. AND….the rare times that I see high level decorative weapons esp in quantity….have happened to be on bots….LOL. Fancy that…. Caught a guy the other day playing with his 3 bots on a pirate beach…. Reported them all…. I started talking about the existence of bots and he was first to jump to their defence…and then I clued in. He promptly moved them all to a nearby town where I found them standing in one place doing nothing. Funny part was that I never rez’d them when they died….including him…and then he complained afterwards about having a 10g repair bill…and I just laughed…

I got sidetracked a bit there….but let’s not forget the experience of D3 with massive high end inflation generated by bots, and the clear effect of auction house botting on a very significant number of items in the game. D3 did not have buy orders….only bids on current items. So, when an item gets scooped instantaneously as soon as you post it, then you know it’s a bot…..esp when it happens several times in a row. The clincher is when it gets relisted almost right away also…. The days of innocence are gone….

Khift.4706:

Reading this thread makes me wonder if I am playing the same game as everyone else.

I am not what you would call a power user, at least not economy-wise. I sell things, sure. But just what I find. I sell every single thing I find for the best price I can — whether that is sold straight out on the TP, vendored, or salvaged and the materials sold. I don’t play the market at all. I simply sell what I find.

My main character is level 56 and so far I have been able to afford three character slots, four bank tabs and ten mystic forge stones with gold alone. I haven’t spent a dime on the BLTC, I just buy gems with gold and buy the items I want with that.

As far as I’m concerned this economy is doing well. Yes, there are a lot of junk item drops that are falling beneath their price floor, but honestly? That is to be expected. Almost every MMO encounters that issue.

It is because your main char is level 56. Wait till you hit 80 or start to do WvW. The income does not scale up to match the cost of being competitive at your higher level. A big shock for me when I thought it would be the reverse.

Furthermore because you tend to repeat more stuff at level 80 you get tagged as a farmer, bot even when you are not and all of a sudden all you get are junk drops.

Necrollis.4372:

If you’re not a moderator, you’ve got no business “testing” assertions/claims.. You don’t work for ArenaNet, nor do we have to explain ourselves/concerns/theories to you.

The way I see it: If someone asks for clarification or for the logic that backs up claims and assertions then you should be able to present it. Otherwise, how are you coming to your claims? Just making them up?

I don’t understand why you would get so defensive about it. If you make a statement and someone questions the underlying assumptions or precepts of that statement you should be able to back it up with clear data. Otherwise, your statement will be considered flawed in some manner and ignored / discarded.

In regards to bots: Yes, there are definitely bots in the game. Bots definitely have an impact on the game economy. But, then again, so do players. The question is this: Are bots having a significant impact or is their impact marginal? That’s what I am trying to find out.

One can’t just say, “bots are destroying the economy” and then have no means to back that up. If an example is questioned for validity then the clarity of that example did not exist in the first place – or, put another way, the example didn’t look the same way to 3rd person examiners as it did to the poster.

If you only want to talk to ArenaNet then you can email them. A forum is for public discussion. Once something is posted in a forum then the contents of that post will be viewed and discussed by other people. If statements are made in the post it may be that others will call them into question or request clarification.

Hippocampus.8470:

Rodarin.6058:

I suspect if people keep playing the game the in game gold trade into gems will be around 40 or 50 per gold. Its around 225 right now, and has been declining steadily for a month.

You are aware that both prices fluctuate together, right? So if 1g gets you 40-50 gems, it will mean something around 60-70 gems will give you 1g, which is less than $1 per gold. When gold-to-gems gets worse, it improves the situation for people who have gems and want gold, and vice versa.

Cisza.9540:

Bots do affect AH, but not as much as you imagine and not always in “bad ways”.

Yeah, a lot of the examples given of alleged bots are cases where the bid-ask spread gets closed very quickly. Which is fantastic for the people who are just looking to buy and sell items instead of using the TP to milk out a profit.

There are two ways to get Gems. Real money through Anet and in game gold through the trade window. Why would people get gems though anet for real money if they can buy third party gold and get a lot more? They kill 2 birds with one stone.

The gap is already so large that it is laughable so it will all be relative then as well. This whole idea everything magically balances out doesnt work when you have so many third party ‘corruptions’.

My point was that your pessimistic prediction for the gold cost of gems corresponds to a rather optimistic prediction for the gem cost of gold. Sure, botters may still be able to undercut that, but in one sentence you talk about how amazingly cheap $1 per 1g is compared to ANet’s prices (presumably meaning you think ANet’s prices should be lower), and in another you complain about how amazingly expensive gems are going to become eventually (which means ANet’s prices will become as low as current gold seller prices are).

Do you see the contradiction there?

To the OP – if you cant make money from crafting you are doing it wrong. It is trivial to make 30-40G (profit) per day from crafting.

Rodarin.6058:

Why would people get gems though anet for real money if they can buy third party gold and get a lot more?

+1

Tbh i will not play this game if this happens, actually it happened already but we will see what ArenaNet will do about it, for us and for their game’s sake.

We are talking for nothing here. Gold Farmers and Sellers still out there and they are farming and using trade system very well atm and crushing this game’s economy. Maybe some of em talking and watching and laughing to this topic or even maybe trolling on forum too, nevermind…

So lets put it in a nutshell.. If ArenaNet will not do anything about it ppl can buy any in-game items from sellers and someone with enough money can rule the game at current state. Its why i start my words with " i will not play this game if this happens "…

Just use “buy gw2 items” search term on google and you will see, they are selling Dusk for USD$355.50 or Orichalcum Ingot *250 USD$25.46 etc etc.

( really ? with .50 or .46 ??? )

Most importantly we are still keep talking for nothing but just game, this is not our responsibility…

I just wanna play clean game…

I’m just waiting Anet response about this situation and for real solution if we keep continue to play game.

A lot of circular ‘logic’ (if you can even call the drivel people are spouting logic) here.

Anet ‘set’ (for lack of a better word) a price ration for gold and gems when they released the game. Obviously that will fluctuate somewhat due to a ‘normal’ supply and demand dynamic.

But due to (at first) exploits and now botting that price point is completely gone.

I know 3 or 4 people who personally spent 500 or more REAL US dollars for gems specifically to trade for gold. the first 2 or 3 days after release (during the free time before the ‘official’ release actually) the market did what one would expect. Theh as release happened people play a few days and found out gold was ‘hard to get’ but gems were as easy as entering your CC number and buying the, they did that. Again what you would expect happened. Gems reached an unreal trade in rate per gold. At one point you could ge 410 gems for 1G. That was on Sept 8th 2012. Then it took a dramatic downturn, within a week it was down to 325 Gems for 1G. Then within a week after that it was down to 260 Gems per 1G in game gold. So obviously in game gold became a lot more available than gems were. which meant less people (probably none at that point) were spending real money for gems.

Also during this time, and not coincidentally thats for sure, gold spam was rampant and gold selling sites were popping up everywhere.

In the end it is really Anet that is getting hurt the most. But there is also a by product of all that in that for all the money they DO NOT get from gems sales, is money they dont get to add to the game. Which is in sore need of it.

People that come in now wont know the difference, but they are also way behind people who took advantage of loopholes or other dubious means of getting money.

It is obvious that the people in every thread about the economy fall into two camps. Guys that got have money and got it through who knows what means dont think there is a problem. people without money or finding it hard to get money think there is a problem. I do have money, but I also know there is a problem, despite what people think. I am smart enough to realize I got my money due to luck and getting stuff that i could sell at a premium. I surely know that wont be the case going forward, not with the way things are going.

I would also guess that guys who have mass amounts of wealth are also counting on the gem market crashing and are maybe now still buying gems at the deflated prices figuring that once the botters completely destroy the market they can then sell those gems for a lot more gold than they spent on them.

So some of the comments in regards to botters are completely understandable because it as usual with any MMO a self serving position.

Ridiculous is spelled ridiculous, it is not red!

http://www.ilovemyjournal.com/?action=view_entry&eid=4639

whiran.1473:

If someone asks for clarification or for the logic that backs up claims and assertions then you should be able to present it. Otherwise, how are you coming to your claims? Just making them up?

See, your post is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. “Just making them up”? Do you seriously think people are just “making stuff up” then coming here and posting about it?

No man, people are trying to enjoy the game. Besides, I’ve noticed plenty of posters going into great detail to explain what they’re seeing, and then the same two or three critics keep picking at them and insulting them. It’s rude and it’s not helping.

Necrollis.4372:

whiran.1473:

If someone asks for clarification or for the logic that backs up claims and assertions then you should be able to present it. Otherwise, how are you coming to your claims? Just making them up?

See, your post is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. “Just making them up”? Do you seriously think people are just “making stuff up” then coming here and posting about it?

No man, people are trying to enjoy the game. Besides, I’ve noticed plenty of posters going into great detail to explain what they’re seeing, and then the same two or three critics keep picking at them and insulting them. It’s rude and it’s not helping.

Good job continuing to miss the point.

You mention some stuff you saw, and then proclaim that this means bots are ruining the economy. We don’t think you’re making up the stuff you saw, but we need more justification than your proclamation to buy the conclusion that bots are ruining the economy. If you are unwilling or unable to provide such justification, then there’s really no rational reason to believe your claim.

Yeah, and good job continuing to prove my point.

There’s really no “rational reason” for you to be challenging everything people are saying regarding bots (unless you work for ArenaNet or are a botter yourself).

…..And yet, here you are.

Let me ask you a question. Let’s say someone comes in and posts a link to a video, of an anonymous individual demonstrating how he/she uses a bot to milk the game. Obviously, this would be ‘empirical’ proof. Ok then what? What are you going to do about it? Nothing, absolutely nothing, because -you- can’t.

Hence, people here do -not- have to explain anything to you, or give ‘better’ proof. Frankly some people have given very stable comments and you’re just determined you’re going to give them a hard time no matter what they say.

What “point” is Hippocampus proving, Necrollis?

The purpose of a forum is discussion. If you post here, you participate in that discussion, and if people disagree with you some of them are going to reply to you.

If you don’t want to provide good evidence that bots are, in fact “ruining the economy”, then you really aren’t contributing very much. I, for one, would like to know why it is that people think that this is the case; after all, maybe there’s some important information I’m missing.

I think everyone here acknowledges that there are, in fact, bots playing this game, but I don’t see why it is that some people are calling the economy “broken” – what exactly is so seriously wrong?

Problem
Player feels insufficiently rewarded for the amount of effort he puts into the game.

Bad Guy
Player has isolated third party as source of said problem, regardless of its existence or effect on the problem

Reality
If you were to play for an hour and convert all you earn into gold, then into gems and then measure the Dollar value, you would work for less than minimum wage. Two reasons: (1) ‘game time’ is not valued as high as other services and (2) you cannot in fact compete with a bot/farmer.

Solution
ArenaNet does not need to fight bots, they need to work on how players earn rewards. We have a gigantic Moloch of systems in place. Loot tables, random drops, trading posts, crafting, construction, deconstruction, hidden NPCs, undocumented recipes, and more. If you go with the carrot on a stick analogy, then the carrot has long since been replaced by the most complicated Rube Goldberg device imaginable.

Even with all botters gone, the steps between playing the game and claiming a reward that feels right are still ridiculous and far from mass market compatible.

lackofcheese.5617:

I think everyone here acknowledges that there are, in fact, bots playing this game, but I don’t see why it is that some people are calling the economy “broken” – what exactly is so seriously wrong?

Alright, let me ask it this way. How much time do you spend on the Black Lion Trading Post?

Necrollis.4372:

lackofcheese.5617:

I think everyone here acknowledges that there are, in fact, bots playing this game, but I don’t see why it is that some people are calling the economy “broken” – what exactly is so seriously wrong?

Alright, let me ask it this way. How much time do you spend on the Black Lion Trading Post?

Probably several hours a day.

Solution
ArenaNet does not need to fight bots, they need to work on how players earn rewards. We have a gigantic Moloch of systems in place. Loot tables, random drops, trading posts, crafting, construction, deconstruction, hidden NPCs, undocumented recipes, and more. If you go with the carrot on a stick analogy, then the carrot has long since been replaced by the most complicated Rube Goldberg device imaginable.
Even with all botters gone, the steps between playing the game and claiming a reward that feels right are still ridiculous and far from mass market compatible.

You cannot up the rewards for players without doing so to the bots, because how can they be differentiated?

No matter what they do there is no way to put players on an equal footing with bots as long as bots exist. There are no safeguards no tests, no anything that you can do to prove youre not a bot that some controller somewhere couldnt do either. Only solution is to get rid of bots, but that isnt happening and theyre only getting worse.

I would go so far as to say ‘normal’ players have probably broken out some of their old Diablo II methods and are running bots themselves.

If you go on any server and go into the lower level maps or farming hotspots you’ll see dozens of bots circling the map all day. Do one circle with them and tally up what you get, then multiply that by the number of hours they do it, then by the numbers you see, then by the number of servers then you will have an idea just how much stuff theyre putting on the TP and into the system.

There are so many of them with pets that they would have to put a champion mob on every node for that to even slow them down a little bit. That is how bad it has gotten. Beyond requiring some rotating code you have to enter for every node you access I doubt anything would deter them, and even that would mostly deter regular players and not guys controlling bots.

Its a vicious circle theyre completely undermining the whole system. Not just the TP. They make their gold off the TP, then they sell that gold and that gold gets bought then traded for gems, which kills the gem trade prices, because if no one buys gems and trades them for gold then it is a completely one way system. In a month 1 in game gold wont get you 100 gems.

I know Anet is hoping that will entice people to buy them with RL money through their store, but theyre kidding themselves. As I have outlined the third party prices are so low it is well worth the risk to most people to buy it there. If they get banned they just go buy another box for 60 bucks. Or they cry to Anet and get their account back. If they get hacked they cry to Anet and get their account back.

Necrollis.4372:

Ok then what? What are you going to do about it? Nothing, absolutely nothing, because -you- can’t.

Hence, people here do -not- have to explain anything to you

I can do exactly as much about it as you can, though. So if my inability to actually effect change means I shouldn’t post here to ask for some stronger justification for your claims, your inability to actually effect change means you shouldn’t post here to complain about the problem in the first place.

I find it rather telling that, rather than actually providing the explanations I and others are asking for, you instead get really defensive about how you shouldn’t need to support your claims. Historically, this usually happens when someone doesn’t actually have any such support.

(And again, if the reason you shouldn’t have to explain yourself to me is because I can’t do anything about it, then why are you posting about it in the first place? You can’t do anything about it either, and contacting ANet works better through bug reports than through forum posts.)

Hippocampus.8470:

(And again, if the reason you shouldn’t have to explain yourself to me is because I can’t do anything about it, then why are you posting about it in the first place? You can’t do anything about it either, and contacting ANet works better through bug reports than through forum posts.)

No. The reason I’m not going to explain myself to you (again), is because you’re just trying to p*ss people off.