Guild Wars 2

I’m hoping to get some feedback from our friendly, neighborhood economist. Currently, a lot of us are enjoying the opportunity to make Gold via certain events related to the Queen’s Jubilee update. Everything from mass Champion farming, to the Queen’s Gauntlet challenge.

While I, personally, love the fact that I can make easy money really quickly, my long term concerns are that the value of our in game currency is going to be decimated. Well, perhaps not that bad, but I can see bad signs day to day. As an example, my Guildies are making an average of 150 Gold per day with dedicated farming. This isn’t the use of an exploit, but rather akin to CoF on steroids.

Is there any plans in place that might help slow the snowball that’s currently rolling downhill?

And I just sent you a PM. Dang you’re fast.

But rather, I was hoping for more feedback, since I’m sure you share my concerns.

John Smith , you are my hero!

I sense some incoming big ticket items for sale from vendors…

mtpelion.4562:

I sense some incoming big ticket items for sale from vendors…

That’s one way to create a Gem sink. But I’m really interested in how John and Anet approaches this situation. I’m sure they have some tricks up their sleeves. Because the farming is so wide spread, each day that there isn’t a fix, that means more currency saturates the game world.

My best guess is that the Precursor crafting will require the purchase of a material from a vendor that costs 100+ gold.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

mtpelion.4562:

I sense some incoming big ticket items for sale from vendors…

That’s one way to create a Gem sink. But I’m really interested in how John and Anet approaches this situation. I’m sure they have some tricks up their sleeves. Because the farming is so wide spread, each day that there isn’t a fix, that means more currency saturates the game world.

I sense a nerf

./sigh guess I better start logging in again to make some gold before the nerf’kitten. Haven’t had the heart to play lately…lol.

Do you really think that Anet management, having hired a professional (and no doubt fairly well paid) economist to keep the in-game economy from self-destructing would allow developers to make changes to the game that could potentially do just that without consulting the economist (the one they are giving a nice paycheck to) about it?

That would be like driving on the interstate and forgetting that the car has a brake pedal.

tolunart.2095:

Do you really think that Anet management, having hired a professional (and no doubt fairly well paid) economist to keep the in-game economy from self-destructing would allow developers to make changes to the game that could potentially do just that without consulting the economist (the one they are giving a nice paycheck to) about it?

That would be like driving on the interstate and forgetting that the car has a brake pedal.

Agreed. I am pretty sure John has massive influence/say on content created.

tolunart.2095:

Do you really think that Anet management, having hired a professional (and no doubt fairly well paid) economist to keep the in-game economy from self-destructing would allow developers to make changes to the game that could potentially do just that without consulting the economist (the one they are giving a nice paycheck to) about it?

That would be like driving on the interstate and forgetting that the car has a brake pedal.

Yes, you can hire someone and not listen to them.

Hell Avenger.7021:

I sense a nerf

I don’t think so. A nerf won’t have any impact on the gold that has already been created, and I’m sure they knew that the current farming would generate a LOT of new gold.

I’m sticking with my theory that Precursor crafting will require a lot of purchased materials and they wanted to get the gold flow started before the crafting is introduced.

Precursors already have the requirement of a 100 Gold purchase (Icy Runestones).

As for the state of the game with all this farming, clearly it was never intended. How would they know that with the right build, a certain hardcore boss could be farmed so often? It took a single person out of millions of players to share this information, and then it exploded. But then there’s the concern of mass Champion farming chains. Surely Anet wanted to reward players for defeating difficult enemies, but didn’t expect so many people to dedicate all their time to sitting on map spawns.

I wouldn’t go so far as to blame Anet for this, but more along the lines of them underestimating our resourcefulness in finding Gold making opportunities.

I think that unless all the gold made so far was invested to manipulate the tp, it is not going to effect the economy over all in any significant way.

I also think that a lot of the gold players are getting initially they will spend on big priced items, including gems which will then just take it right back out of the economy.

I think it was pretty obvious guys. Isn’t ecto up 22s or so?

The market has waaay to many gold faucets right now.

I don’t think nerfing the rate of rares/boxes/mats should be nerfed, but the amount of silver from the boxes definitely should.

I think people farming the champs will die down, people will eventually realize that they are permanent additions. They need not farm like madmen and return to a decent farming pace like the old world bosses.

The Subject 7/Deadeye one though… I highly doubted Anet expected us to farm a T3 boss like that. They expected T3 bosses to be a challenge, which is why those bags are worth so much

Vol.5241:

I think it was pretty obvious guys. Isn’t ecto up 22s or so?

The market has waaay to many gold faucets right now.

I don’t think nerfing the rate of rares/boxes/mats should be nerfed, but the amount of silver from the boxes definitely should.

Yes, ecto price has been climbing. It could also mean the opportunity cost of farming the daily world boss is increasing, since champ can be more profittable. Less rare = less ectos. I farmed champ a bit, and I noticed the gold generation is not that good, I get tons of greens from those bags.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Precursors already have the requirement of a 100 Gold purchase (Icy Runestones).

As for the state of the game with all this farming, clearly it was never intended. How would they know that with the right build, a certain hardcore boss could be farmed so often? It took a single person out of millions of players to share this information, and then it exploded. But then there’s the concern of mass Champion farming chains. Surely Anet wanted to reward players for defeating difficult enemies, but didn’t expect so many people to dedicate all their time to sitting on map spawns.

I wouldn’t go so far as to blame Anet for this, but more along the lines of them underestimating our resourcefulness in finding Gold making opportunities.

If we found it in under 10 days, then devs should be able to predict that behavior through play testing, no problem.

The key now is to farm enough gold to overcome whatever gold sink they will be adding now.

John Smith.4610:

yes

YOU KNOW NOTHING JOHN SMITH !!!!

hahaha i just need say this :P

I really don’t get it. I mean it was obvious (by obvious I mean crystal clear, zero humidity on a sunny day, 20/20, spotting dimes, sticking out like a sore thumb, “Hey isn’t that an elephant in the room!”) that there would be an “issue” by implementing things in such a fashion.

So why why why do they go forth, knowing that they will have to put in corrective measures, after the fact?

“Hey, want to make a giant snowball?”
“Sure thing!”

“Right on let’s start.”
“Alright.”

“Let’s make it by the top of the hill.”
“Isn’t there the chance that it may roll down the hill.”

“Ofc there is! We are going to push it.”
“Won’t we have to clean up the mess afterwards?”

“Well yes, we will.”
So…tell me again why we are going to push it?"

“Idk…just push it. We will worry about it later. Live in the moment!”

Maybe the corrective measure is something that was planned to be implemented into the living story? So that it was more or less: “Part 1: Get loads of gold into the system. Part 2: Remove massive amount of gold from the system” and thus balancing it out. I could think of quite a few way that could be implemented to the living story, based on how the next part plays out.

Why does it seem that the play style of so few (market players) seems to define what happens with the loot table for the majority that don’t farm or play casually? To be frank I’m getting pretty sick and tired of this, the TP is only one bloody portion of the game but the few that monopolize this system seem to carry far too much weight where the game reward system is concerned.

Frankly every opportunity to make money for those who don’t farm or play this stupid market gets trashed on the will of what is assuredly a minority.

Great. I haven’t had the opportunity to play due to being out of town for work and I was excited over this patch because I’ll finally be able to get my Twillight (farm mats). Nope… Nerf coming. Kinda kittenty ANet. :/

I honestly think that a nerf at this point is useless. The damage is done. The hardcore players made more money they couldve ever dreamed of just by playing 24/7 either Cursed Shore or Pavilion and in the end the normal players will suffer from this because those people can manipulate the market now the way they want to.

I think ectos are the first alarming sign. Thanks to that insane amount of gold swapping into the game with that update people have to care less about what they buy and how much they pay for it. People will be able to buy their precursors without a problem now and in the end you will have to pay 1000g or so for the popular precursors because right now i doubt that the amount of them being dropped each day can keep up with the amount of people being able to buy them from the TP…

This update is a freakin disaster and in the end it might be a punch in the face for everyone who doesnt want to or cannot afford to farm Pavilion/Gauntlet 24/7 because it will take them even longer to achieve whatever they want (mostly Legendary).

PsYcHoSeAn.4835:

This update is a freakin disaster and in the end it might be a punch in the face for everyone who doesnt want to or cannot afford to farm Pavilion/Gauntlet 24/7 because it will take them even longer to achieve whatever they want (mostly Legendary).

Overreact much?

Changes to the way loot is handed out has been in development all year, this is just step x of y. Changes to the process by which Legendary gear (will be more than just weapons) is created has been in development all year. Major changes coming soon.

I believe the Crown Pavillion activities will be shut down next month, and the Ring of Loot will be added to the activities in rotation. By then the shiny will have worn off on the champ farming and new skins, and something else will be introduced to keep the farmers occupied.

Beyond that, how much more loot is really being added vs. those CoF speedruns? How much is taken away by TP flipping? Maybe the gold sinks are working a little too well.

Want a gold sink? Compare creating a legendary suit of armor to creating a single weapon. You just might need that flood of gold and t6 mats.

I agree that making hundreds of gold by playing the game 24/7 is pretty extreme.

However there is a bigger problem here which has left completely unaddressed since nearly the release of the game: legendary precursors dropping randomly for people.

Any random idiot can walk into Queensdale or Frostgorge or Cursed Shore or whatever, kill a random harpy, and then get an expensive precursor like Dawn or Dusk to drop for them.

This requires absolutely no skill, no effort, and only as much time it takes to kill 1 mob. And the reward? An instant 500+G dropped right into your lap.

This is absolutely preposterous and I can’t believe you’ve let such an extremely broken game mechanic in the game for so long. Over the months countless people have gotten 500+ gold at absolutely no effort from them at all.

Fixing this is much more important than fixing a method which lets a few people who play 24/7 every day make a few 100 gold. All they’re really doing is playing catch-up to the people who got the 500+ gold with no effort.

The damage done by these legendary precursors is far larger than any damage done by people farming certain areas for way too long. And it probably can never be repaired if they already sold the precursor that dropped for them and have been sitting on that pile of gold for months.

CryxTryx.9208:

I think that unless all the gold made so far was invested to manipulate the tp, it is not going to effect the economy over all in any significant way.

I also think that a lot of the gold players are getting initially they will spend on big priced items, including gems which will then just take it right back out of the economy.

This is incorrect. The problem with this situation is like a country printing way too much money. The value of the currency goes down because there’s so much of it outstanding, and as a result, prices of goods rise. You don’t need to be a business major or market analyst to see that a lot of stuff on the TP is rising in price.

And for those of us who haven’t been dedicated farmers are in trouble I assume? 150g a day? That is insane. I haven’t made 150g this patch. I have seen an increase for sure but 150g a day seems insane.

tolunart.2095:

Do you really think that Anet management, having hired a professional (and no doubt fairly well paid) economist to keep the in-game economy from self-destructing would allow developers to make changes to the game that could potentially do just that without consulting the economist (the one they are giving a nice paycheck to) about it?

That would be like driving on the interstate and forgetting that the car has a brake pedal.

This is what governments do all the time. They hire economists to tell them how not to screw up the economy, then they just don’t listen to what the economists have to say, or at least just selectively listen to the economists.

I don’t see how it would be far fetched for Anet to just keep making ridiculously optimal farming methods (which are also incredibly mind numbing) without listening to their in house economist. The players who are willing to do the exact same Subject7/Deadeye/etc farm for hours on end are a couple orders of magnitude richer than people who don’t want to just do the exact same couple actions repeated for hours on end.

This farming, which is by far more profitable than CoF P1 farming ever was, also makes CoF P1 farming look incredibly interesting and fun in comparison. The more mind numbing the farm, the more profitable it seems to be. Seriously, people making thousands of gold off the Queen’s Guantlet here in the last week are most likely going to have a large impact on the game economy. Simply jacking up the prices of some new goodies to function as a gold sink is just going to be placing it far out of reach from anyone else… which makes people feel even more compelled to jump onto the next boring mass farm.

I’m holding most of my game currency in commodities, because I’m fearing that the ensuing inflation is going to put a legendary far out of reach if I do not do so, since I generally avoid these boring, but highly profitable farms. I’ll wish my fellow economist John Smith the best in his efforts, but I will still be hedging my bets.

Cerise.9045:

I agree that making hundreds of gold by playing the game 24/7 is pretty extreme.

However there is a bigger problem here which has left completely unaddressed since nearly the release of the game: legendary precursors dropping randomly for people.

Any random idiot can walk into Queensdale or Frostgorge or Cursed Shore or whatever, kill a random harpy, and then get an expensive precursor like Dawn or Dusk to drop for them.

This requires absolutely no skill, no effort, and only as much time it takes to kill 1 mob. And the reward? An instant 500+G dropped right into your lap.

This is absolutely preposterous and I can’t believe you’ve let such an extremely broken game mechanic in the game for so long. Over the months countless people have gotten 500+ gold at absolutely no effort from them at all.

Fixing this is much more important than fixing a method which lets a few people who play 24/7 every day make a few 100 gold. All they’re really doing is playing catch-up to the people who got the 500+ gold with no effort.

I need to correct you too. Precursor drops are extremely rare. One or two dropping for people has no effect on the economy as a whole. Also, it’s not a “few” people making hundreds of Gold. It’s thousands across all servers.

Let me put it in terms that’s easier to understand. Just one person in my guild made the equivalent of the value of a Precursor with relative ease. No RNG involved, just pure skill and dedicated farming. Take that one person, and multiply it by thousands, and the result is like having a Precursor drop like it was a Blue or Green item. Now you’ll see the reason why we (who understand the in game economy) are concerned.

One more example – Remember the Karka chest. That alone should remind people about what happens when really rare items saturate the market.

What I am concerned about like I said above is what about the player who haven’t massed farm? Or simply haven’t been lucky. This is a huge gold increase, at least 50-60g myself which is way more than normal but not in the hundreds or thousands as some have been suggesting. I feel like there is a wave coming and whatever the sink is, I won’t be able to keep up at all. I enjoy zerging and the farm for the record, but I do it an hour here and an hour there etc. I am not nearly dedicated enough I suppose.

Had a guildie get the hammer precursor to drop today and I told him to hold onto all that gold for his dear life. lol

John Smith.4610:

yes

Whatever you guys do, you need to fix the system of loot tagging. Getting drops in these large events is ridiculously difficult, even in a five guardian party.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s thousands across all servers.

I’m hard-pressed to visualize how “thousands” are doing this even with overflow swapping. Not to say that the source isn’t bad but I just don’t see “thousands”.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

CryxTryx.9208:

I think that unless all the gold made so far was invested to manipulate the tp, it is not going to effect the economy over all in any significant way.

I also think that a lot of the gold players are getting initially they will spend on big priced items, including gems which will then just take it right back out of the economy.

This is incorrect. The problem with this situation is like a country printing way too much money. The value of the currency goes down because there’s so much of it outstanding, and as a result, prices of goods rise. You don’t need to be a business major or market analyst to see that a lot of stuff on the TP is rising in price.

That’s a fine example if people in that country were also prone to burning the money.

When you buy gems with gold it removes it from the economy entirely.

When people are talking about all these large gold income theyvget from CS farming, keep in mind that only a minor part of that is actual new gold entering the economy and the majority comes from selling things on the TP. It’s less “money making” and more “money moving”.

Considering how Anet specifically pointed out event farming in Orr with large groups as something intended to be profitable due to the increase of spawned champions, I don’t think nerfing that aspect is the way to go (or if it is then that’s a sign that there is some severe lack of forethought going on).

I think for the majority of the players the biggest goal requiring gold right now is a legendary. The cost for that comes atm mostly from the TP, something I’d say is a major problem, and a cost from vendors that is still significant but nowhere near the TP. The money that goes to vendors are an effective gold sink but buying precursors and materials on the TP only removes the listing fee. Hopefully the crafted precursors will be more similar to certain Mystic Forge recipes and take part gold and part some other from of currency (e.g. Skill points).

I wouldn’t hold out too much hope for crafted precursors though, with the one year anniversary for GW2 coming up, the 10-11 month anniversary of when we were first told that we’d be getting a system for non-drop based precursors is also closing in.

Really? Because I make about a gold per trip back to the nearest NPC vendor just on greens. That’s new money minted just for me.

@Rainu

It’s 4/5 Gambit Dead-Eye being a 40 second encounter with a zerker Thief for 40s net profit. 40 seconds for 40s that is made out of nowhere.

Vena.8436:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s thousands across all servers.

I’m hard-pressed to visualize how “thousands” are doing this even with overflow swapping. Not to say that the source isn’t bad but I just don’t see “thousands”.

It’s an educated estimate. Taking into account a single server has multiple areas that have Champion-trains. Then the fact that there’s different players worldwide (NA, EU, SEA, etc) in game 24/7 at any given point. Add to that the number of servers in game. Just because you don’t “see” it on your server, doesn’t mean it’s not happening somewhere else, or even in an Overflow. And as I’ve said, it’s not just the Champion-trains, but also the Queen’s Gauntlet players too. I’m one of the latter.

CryxTryx.9208:

That’s a fine example if people in that country were also prone to burning the money.

When you buy gems with gold it removes it from the economy entirely.

Actually, when you buy Gems with Gold, the doesn’t really just disappear. I’m one of the people who like to buy Gold with my Gems. It’s an endless cycle. But due to the farming available, there’s less need for me to “waste” my Gems on the exchange. So your comment can be viewed in different ways.

Right now, while Gold is so easy to get, technically speaking, exchanging it would remove it from the economy. This is purely based on less people exchanging Gems for Gold. However, the rest of the Gold is merely being swapped between players on the TP.

Vena.8436:

@Rainu

It’s 4/5 Gambit Dead-Eye being a 40 second encounter with a zerker Thief for 40s net profit. 40 seconds for 40s that is made out of nowhere.

Yes, I agree that Gambit farming is causing a problem with gold influx. Champion farming in the open world isn’t as much of a problem.

[quote=2636105;Smooth Penguin.5294:]

how long per trip foofad? just curious because I feel like I am missing the boat and doing something wrong. sad I feel that way but stories in and out of game are making me feel it, this simply Dev “yes” has me worried. lol

Rainu.6871:

I wouldn’t hold out too much hope for crafted precursors though, with the one year anniversary for GW2 coming up, the 10-11 month anniversary of when we were first told that we’d be getting a system for non-drop based precursors is also closing in.

That’s about as long as it would take to create something like that, minimum. I’d be worried if they said in December “maybe we’ll do something about it,” in January they said “we’re working on it,” and in March they said “here it is!” That would be a buggy mess that was hurried through development and untested.

Given the market for existing precursors and crafted Legendaries, and the fact that they are not as new and shiny as they were a year ago, it’s reasonable to expect that the new path to a Legendary will involve new skins. The devs would also want to improve on current designs, so they would be more impressive than what we see now. That alone will take several months to develop, independent of the work being done on the methods to acquire them.

That the process has taken so long does not worry me – it reassures me that they are taking the matter seriously and doing as much as they can to get it right.

Rainu.6871:

When people are talking about all these large gold income theyvget from CS farming, keep in mind that only a minor part of that is actual new gold entering the economy and the majority comes from selling things on the TP. It’s less “money making” and more “money moving”.

My Guildie made over 500 Gold from doing the Queen’s Gauntlet alone. THAT is new money entering the economy.

Also, players are farming Champions in Queensdale, Cursed Shore, etc. All those drops (anything less than rare) are new money. The rest are being traded on the TP. But still, it’s the infusion of “stuff” that’s providing the common player with more wealth. This is at the expense of the Market Players who mainly flip for income.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s an educated estimate.

Oh, I thought your were talking about Deadeye.

I’m not actually sure how much more gold-generating Champions actually do compared to what used to be possible from CoF/SE, in fact I’m almost certain it’s a lot less of a faucet and more a of a shifter.

I’ve run through the CS/FGS gauntlets and without good drops on skins/mats, the blues/greens and ~10s (minus some WP fees) aren’t exactly worth my time.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Cerise.9045:

I agree that making hundreds of gold by playing the game 24/7 is pretty extreme.

However there is a bigger problem here which has left completely unaddressed since nearly the release of the game: legendary precursors dropping randomly for people.

Any random idiot can walk into Queensdale or Frostgorge or Cursed Shore or whatever, kill a random harpy, and then get an expensive precursor like Dawn or Dusk to drop for them.

This requires absolutely no skill, no effort, and only as much time it takes to kill 1 mob. And the reward? An instant 500+G dropped right into your lap.

This is absolutely preposterous and I can’t believe you’ve let such an extremely broken game mechanic in the game for so long. Over the months countless people have gotten 500+ gold at absolutely no effort from them at all.

Fixing this is much more important than fixing a method which lets a few people who play 24/7 every day make a few 100 gold. All they’re really doing is playing catch-up to the people who got the 500+ gold with no effort.

I need to correct you too. Precursor drops are extremely rare. One or two dropping for people has no effect on the economy as a whole. Also, it’s not a “few” people making hundreds of Gold. It’s thousands across all servers.

Let me put it in terms that’s easier to understand. Just one person in my guild made the equivalent of the value of a Precursor with relative ease. No RNG involved, just pure skill and dedicated farming. Take that one person, and multiply it by thousands, and the result is like having a Precursor drop like it was a Blue or Green item. Now you’ll see the reason why we (who understand the in game economy) are concerned.

One more example – Remember the Karka chest. That alone should remind people about what happens when really rare items saturate the market.

Yeh, well you hit the nail on the head and described exactly what has been wrong with this game; RNG and not pure skill and dedication is how people got the precursor! The bloody TP should never be the way to get this weapon and this is what is fundamentally wrong with the way they have taken things and was exactly the point of my previous post.
The Karka chest was a disaster and the whole concept of controlling the best items in the game through the economy is another one!

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Rainu.6871:

When people are talking about all these large gold income theyvget from CS farming, keep in mind that only a minor part of that is actual new gold entering the economy and the majority comes from selling things on the TP. It’s less “money making” and more “money moving”.

My Guildie made over 500 Gold from doing the Queen’s Gauntlet alone. THAT is new money entering the economy.

Also, players are farming Champions in Queensdale, Cursed Shore, etc. All those drops (anything less than rare) are new money. The rest are being traded on the TP. But still, it’s the infusion of “stuff” that’s providing the common player with more wealth. This is at the expense of the Market Players who mainly flip for income.

Yes, as I mentioned in an earlier comment, the gauntlet is a gold faucet that is set too high IMO. My comment was purely for champion farming and that group running them is something Anet specifically mentioned when introducing the patch as a way to farm.

Keep in mind that the biggest pre-patch gold faucet (cof) was turned down and I guess it’s a lot of the people who used to run it that a running CS farm trains now as well. The new dungeon reward system means that casual players have a better access to gold now as well, something I think is good but also something that is another faucet.

As for people making a profit flipping items on the TP, I can’t say I have much sympathy for their inconveniences – at least train farmers do some work (and provide some goods) for their gold even if it’s mind numbing work

Smooth Penguin.5294:

My Guildie made over 500 Gold from doing the Queen’s Gauntlet alone. THAT is new money entering the economy.

It’s temporary content. For a month there were massive zergs running through Southsun farming with +MF and +GF boosts, did that ruin the economy?

This is just too rich, people who have cleaned up making 100’s of gold, now concerned that the rest of us will also cash in.

Sounds too much like, hey I got mine, quick turn it off so I can enjoy a significant advantage over those who missed out (on vacation, sick etc.) for the last week or so.

My guess is everything will revert to the same old gray, nothing is worth farming landscape once the celebration is over.