Guild Wars 2

Gene Archer.8560:

Still thinking that the best “nerf” is to just make gold less important by bringing other currencies up to the level of gold.

Edit: Aaaaaaand, ninja’d by Schizo, essentially. Dat timing.

I agree making other currencies more relevant would be a good thing. I however am sure if other currencies like karma were available for trade they would fall into the very same situation where the tp would be BY FAR the best method for it. It would just start from the beginning vs gold that has had time to progress exponentially.

edit had to capitalize “by far”

Behellagh.1468:

“The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.”
? William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar

The TP functions extremely well for what it was designed to do. Allow players to sell unwanted and buy wanted items for coin as well as acting as a coin sink.

The opportunity that allows TP players to earn money is a fault in all the other players using the TP. They either consciously or unconsciously willing to trade coin for instant gratification. “I want coin for my item NOW!” “I want that item NOW!” Players treat the TP as if it was another NPC vendor. Relatively few players question the prices presented to them on the TP screen. It only takes one or two bad experiences of pricing the item yourself and not having it sell in 24 hours or even a week to revert to choosing the sell now price.

It’s tough to code around human nature.

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others. Those others become scapegoats for every annoyance on the TP. Dye prices shoot up after announcement, it’s those kitten rich TPers. Item price collapses after announcement, it’s those kitten rich TPers. I can’t afford that extremely rare item I want, it’s those kitten rich TPers. I can’t sell my extremely rare item quickly because those kitten rich TPers undercut me.

And Dark Spirit is right, if it is so easy to make a killing on the TP, and players are complaining they don’t have enough gold, then why aren’t players flocking to it? It’s not because they are taking the high road and “play the game”. We are talking players who devolved general gameplay into champ trains, boss trains, farm trains and speed runs to get reward. If reward is the driving factor and TP playing is so rewarding and easy to do then why the call to “fix” it or punish the wealthy (well just the wealthy who use the TP)?

Since it’s more of a fault of the players themselves for not understanding the mechanics of the Trading Post, the debate now moves. Instead of nerfing the TP (since there’s nothing to nerf), they should nerf the rich players by limiting their access to the game. It all goes back to “punishing” the rich players because they know what to do.

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

Aidan Savage.2078:

The main issue is that what would define the relation of x karma = y gold? The same “sooper pooper sekret 4moola” used to define hold much gold a gem is worth?

Basically, whatever ANet sets it to be. As an example, we already have a standard for what exotic gear is worth in karma. 42k per piece, iirc.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Beyond that, there are already ways to convert karma into gold using the MF by purchasing karma equipment and then forging them into salvageable gear. This can be highly profitable because this is one of the methods you can use to “farm” linen scraps.

My idea doesn’t turn karma into gold. That’s the whole point. Aside from that, the MF is the poster child of the crap shoot. Relying on the MF for something like that is just…blech.

Edit: Holy kitten, crap isn’t censored.

Essence Snow.3194:

I agree making other currencies more relevant would be a good thing. I however am sure if other currencies like karma were available for trade they would fall into the very same situation where the tp would be BY FAR the best method for it. It would just start from the beginning vs gold that has had time to progress exponentially.

Little confused. What do you mean when you say karma being available for trade? As in, being able to trade to vendors? Because there would be no issue there. Karma would have a fixed price. If you mean using karma on the TP, that’s Wanze’s idea.

Which other game has a global trading post system just like GW2?

EVE?

I mean it is easy and there is zero risk. Because it is more than possible to clear 1,000G in that amount of time via pve. And I don’t mean one off events, I mean consistently, week after week, month after month.

I call bull on that.

They ARE adding rewards constantly that arent obtainable by just gold, which in my eyes devalues the dependance on gold every time, even though a little.
. . .

In my eyes it wont matter how much rewards Anet introduces that are unobtainable by playing the TP, people who complain about my income now, will keep complaining.

As I noted above, I only care about the amount of gold I have to the degree that it allows me access to the things I want. I don’t value gold as a “TP points” currency. If they shifted the system so that more items were available through a non-gold currency, and less items were available via gold, then it may be enough that I wouldn’t care how easy or hard it would be to amass gold on the TP. My only concern about the “alternate currency” thing is that I’d want it to be a flexible system. The Fractals are a bad example of this, sincethere are a lot of interesting things you can buy using “Fractal points,” but you can ONLY earn Fractal Points by playing that one activity, and if you don’t have the time to run Fractals then you can’t get them. If they allow players to buy more items using a non-gold currency, and less items with gold, then they would need to distribute that currency evenly across all in-game activities, OR allow you to mix and match a variety of different currencies to buy the item you want.

What if you could pay on the TP with other currencies than gold?
Or lets just make a totally seperate TP with karma as currency.
It would definately give regular players a higher “income” through regular events.
But it would open up a way for TP players to earn karma, which I am not sure, is good or bad.

Well, any system that would allow you to convert “some of a currency” into “more of that currency” through effective trading would suffer from the same flaws as the current markets. I can’t really think of how you could manage a “Karma TP” that wouldn’t be just as bad as the existing TP, allowing TP farmers to earn billions of Karma and thus having everything worth purchasing costing millions or karma or more. I probably have more karma than most TP farmers do right now, but I have no doubt that within six months of implementing this sort of system there would be TP farmers who have ten times more karma than I will, and the markets will be based on how much they have, not how much I have.

Having a closed market where you can buy more items directly from ANet in exchange for Karma could be a good thing, but I would not want to see a market in which you can earn karma from it.

From the player perspective, the Precursor issue is “broken” as it is almost impossible for the causal player to obtain one. From the game perspective it is likely right where Anet wants as Legendary weapons really shouldn’t be in everyone’s inventory (but that’s just my opinion).

Look, I’m fine with the idea of “not everyone having a legendary.” If that’s how ANet wants it, then fine. Where it is a problem is that the deciding line of whether you have one or not is entirely MONEY. If you have a lot of gold, you can have a Legendary. If you don’t have a lot of gold, you can’t have a Legendary. If all Legendaries were BoP, and if Precursors were also all BoP but predictably earnable through convoluted ingame means, like collecting thousands of different dungeon tokens, or spending millions of Karma, or that sort of thing, then I’d be fine with them being uber rare, but so long as any yahoo with a few thousand gold can just pick one up at the market, no, I reject the idea that “they’re rare and are meant to be rare so stop whining about it.”

Gene Archer.8560:

Essence Snow.3194:

I agree making other currencies more relevant would be a good thing. I however am sure if other currencies like karma were available for trade they would fall into the very same situation where the tp would be BY FAR the best method for it. It would just start from the beginning vs gold that has had time to progress exponentially.

Little confused. What do you mean when you say karma being available for trade? As in, being able to trade to vendors? Because there would be no issue there. Karma would have a fixed price. If you mean using karma on the TP, that’s Wanze’s idea.

Oh sry, I must have meshed the two. My apologies.

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

But you can’t balance player skill. Period. Some players are good at what they do. They use the same mechanics that’s available to all players. If more players played the TP, even remotely well, then the acquisition rate of wealth would diminish.

Also, you’re technically not making money from the TP. You’re just taking it from other players.

To use a different example (not skill related): If I could play 4 hours more per day than the average, would you be asking to “balance” my play time so I’m more in line with everyone else?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Since it’s more of a fault of the players themselves for not understanding the mechanics of the Trading Post, the debate now moves. Instead of nerfing the TP (since there’s nothing to nerf), they should nerf the rich players by limiting their access to the game. It all goes back to “punishing” the rich players because they know what to do.

Two words, Harrison Bergeron.

Ohoni.6057:

I call bull on that.

There are guides showing how to do it on these very forums, outlining both expected return, breaking down where that return comes from and giving general advice…

FSG/Arah Champ train = 5-6G+ per hour.
Cross server Arah event farming = 7-10G+ per hour.
Speed clearing dungeons = 20-25G + per rotation.
Selling dungeons = 15-20G+ per hour.

Those are averages without factoring in high value lucky drops.

Let’s assume a low average of 6G per hour and 4 hours a day (plenty of hardcore farmers/dungeon runners earn more and spend more time per day than that).

24G per day.
168G per week.
1008G in 6 weeks.

Without factoring in lucky high value drops. At the same time they are also gaining additional benefits like AP’s, SP’s, Karma, Dungeon Tokens and Laurels. Oh and in the remit of extremely low to zero risk mechanics.

If you have a stable group and/or are a skilled player, the dungeon options earn significantly more than that. If you run are willing to go cross server and use the API, then you can earn signficantly more than that.

Personally just from the FGS champ train, I cleared enough to buy Dusk @900 within the space of 6 weeks of farming.

So yes, it is more than possible and yes, there are pve players who have multiple legendaries and a massive amount of gold.

Essence Snow.3194:

Oh sry, I must have meshed the two. My apologies.

It’s cool, I think a few people are starting to do that.

So, it’s a new page. Pay attention everyone, this was the ultimate cut of my jib.

Everything in the game, sans gemstore items, becomes available through all currently implemented currencies (except for those being phased out on the 15th).

What this means: Laurels, Karma, Tokens, etc. get brought up to the same level as gold in terms of the items available. This means the ability to purchase exotic gear directly with laurels, or a 20-slot bag with dungeon tokens.

The point is to make gold just another currency, rather than what amounts to the -only- currency. With this idea, there is no nerfing of the TP or the amount of money flippers/tp barons/whatever they wanna call themselves can make.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

But you can’t balance player skill. Period. Some players are good at what they do. They use the same mechanics that’s available to all players. If more players played the TP, even remotely well, then the acquisition rate of wealth would diminish.

Also, you’re technically not making money from the TP. You’re just taking it from other players.

To use a different example (not skill related): If I could play 4 hours more per day than the average, would you be asking to “balance” my play time so I’m more in line with everyone else?

It’s not the skill that should be balanced (as you note it’s impossible) it’s the mechanic. It sort of along the same reasoning of time gating. It’s not to punish players who have the time, but to balance the mechanic.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

But you can’t balance player skill. Period. Some players are good at what they do. They use the same mechanics that’s available to all players. If more players played the TP, even remotely well, then the acquisition rate of wealth would diminish.

Also, you’re technically not making money from the TP. You’re just taking it from other players.

To use a different example (not skill related): If I could play 4 hours more per day than the average, would you be asking to “balance” my play time so I’m more in line with everyone else?

It’s not the skill that should be balanced (as you note it’s impossible) it’s the mechanic. It sort of along the same reasoning of time gating. It’s not to punish players who have the time, but to balance the mechanic.

The imbalance isn’t in the mechanics, but of the players themselves. Everyone has access to the same mechanics, only few of them use it. As another person posted, it’s like a giant pie. If only a few people eat the pie, each person will have a lot more. If a lot of people eat the pie, there will be less of it share.

What you’re asking for is to make the pie smaller. Not because of balance, but because some players don’t take the time to eat their share, so they want to limit the others who do.

Ohoni.6057:

So yes, once you get rolling, the TP offers too much profit for too little effort, but you do need to get on the right track first. You aren’t “defeating” any of the arguments being made in this thread.

Markets balance risk vs reward, not effort and the way the TP does this is very apparent and undisputeable. It’s also very little effort to lose a lot of money as well. Effort is a lazy and an uncorrelated metric that really has no meaning. Besides, anyone using the market to make their money trades whatever effort you claim is lacking into quantifiable risk and that risk is fairly, equally shared by all. IMO, The market is actually the most balanced way to make money in this game because it’s the least dependent on how much time you spend ingame or how much RL money you convert to gems then to gold. Anyone looking to curb that in anyway appears to not understand the underlying importance of it’s presence and function in the game.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

But you can’t balance player skill. Period. Some players are good at what they do. They use the same mechanics that’s available to all players. If more players played the TP, even remotely well, then the acquisition rate of wealth would diminish.

Also, you’re technically not making money from the TP. You’re just taking it from other players.

To use a different example (not skill related): If I could play 4 hours more per day than the average, would you be asking to “balance” my play time so I’m more in line with everyone else?

It’s not the skill that should be balanced (as you note it’s impossible) it’s the mechanic. It sort of along the same reasoning of time gating. It’s not to punish players who have the time, but to balance the mechanic.

The imbalance isn’t in the mechanics, but of the players themselves. Everyone has access to the same mechanics, only few of them use it. As another person posted, it’s like a giant pie. If only a few people eat the pie, each person will have a lot more. If a lot of people eat the pie, there will be less of it share.

What you’re asking for is to make the pie smaller. Not because of balance, but because some players don’t take the time to eat their share, so they want to limit the others who do.

That’s not what I am asking. That’s what you keep saying I’m asking. I am simply asking for measures to be brought forth to balance the reward structure of the game as a whole based on game imposed means, so that no one mechanics if far beyond all others. If karma offered such out of sync potential reward in the game, I be asking for the same balance there. If dungeons offered such out of sync potential reward, I’d propose for it there.

It’s not that its trading. It’s not that it’s karma training. It’s not that it’s farming. It’s not that it’s dungeoning. It’s not that it’s “enter any activity here”.

It’s that one mechanic offers potential for reward completely above and beyond all other mechanics.

If it were pies (for amusement sake) All other mechanics pies would range from 8" diameter to 14" diameter. The TP pie however would be the SUM of all the 8" pies, 14"pies, and all the pies in between.

Essence Snow.3194:

That’s not what I am asking. That’s what you keep saying I’m asking. I am simply asking for measures to be brought forth to balance the reward structure of the game as a whole based on game imposed means, so that no one mechanics if far beyond all others. If karma offered such out of sync potential reward in the game, I be asking for the same balance there. If dungeons offered such out of sync potential reward, I’d propose for it there.

It’s not that its trading. It’s not that it’s karma training. It’s not that it’s farming. It’s not that it’s dungeoning. It’s not that it’s “enter any activity here”.

It’s that one mechanic offers potential for reward completely above and beyond all other mechanics.

If it were pies (for amusement sake) All other mechanics pies would range from 8" diameter to 14" diameter. The TP pie however would be the SUM of all the 8" pies, 14"pies, and all the pies in between.

Here’s your flaw again – You can’t compare all the other mechanics to the TP. All other mechanics generate coin as a reward. The TP doesn’t reward anything. It merely transfers the wealth from one player to another, all while eliminating 15% from the game. It’s like comparing apples to a 5 course meal.

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

John comes in to save the day. Thanks mate.

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

We don’t have any numbers, so we can only speculate (use observational data). It’s all we have. So therefore we cannot prove anything due to lack of information of which ya’ll withhold from us.

I would postulate that an ever widening of wealth disparity (ie rewards) is detrimental to the economy and the game as a whole. The reasoning of such is that historically it has been the case for every occurrence.

But ofc in terms of this and information being withheld we cannot prove anything. So you are imposing a condition to which we simply cannot meet.

Yes that is correct, but does not address the issues of which have been brought up.

Rising inequality in the United States and elsewhere is the most important problem. Increasing inequality harms economic growth. ~Robert Shiller

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem.

Problem: Gold is essentially the only currency that matters in the game.
Problem: Not everyone can gather enough gold for the things they want.
Problem: Low drop rates and low RNG make the game feel unrewarding, leading people to rely on farms for gold, because gold can be used to bypass low drop rates and low RNG

John Smith.4610:

I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

I’m not surprised. You’re also the guy that thought 10s of thousands of candy corn was a perfectly legitimate and fun to achieve price point for a mini pet and a 20-slot bag. And if you aren’t that guy, then slap whoever was.

John Smith.4610:

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.

So then do like Nike suggested several pages ago: Give us an updated graph of wealth distribution in the playerbase. End the speculation by giving everyone information that can be used. Like a graph. But don’t just say “I don’t see a problem. My metrics show no problem.”

As an old commercial once said: “Show me the Carfax”

Edit: Nike’s quote for great justice

Nike.2631:

John Smith.4610:

I do think it’s fair to say though that in many countries there is some unrest with the level of political power being wielded by smaller groups (note I’m making 0 value judgement on the concept itself, but it’s fair to say the idea exists) and this idea can sometimes be extended to an argument of wealth disparity. That unrest may be being projected into this environment, but I still see no evidence of that being an issue in GW2.

Really? Then your reluctance to publish a second distribution of wealth chart like the one released near launch makes no sense .

I think the main thing keeping the vast gulf between rich and average denizens of Tyria from boiling over into widespread fury is the systematically enforced ignorance of how bad it’s gotten.

If you really think it’s not a big deal, them more info is good, right? Post a current chart and get a real feel for whether it matters to people.

“We don’t know how much people are earning via the TP or how many of them are doing it, we don’t even know how much you can earn from pve and we have zero proof as to the current economic model hurting the game at all, but Shiller said inequality is bad, so um, nerf the TP!!!”.

Good argument.

Fenrir.3609:

“We don’t know how much people are earning via the TP or how many of them are doing it, we don’t even know how much you can earn from pve and we have zero proof as to the current economic model hurting the game at all, but Shiller said inequality is bad, so um, nerf the TP!!!”.

Good argument.

1) I was relating that the condition asked for was in actuality an impossible condition. There things such as “Impossible Condition Law”, which explain why it’s not acceptable.

2) Shiller is a world authority on Economics. So his words carry more weight than mine. If we cannot heed advice from the experts of experts, well then I guess all expert testimonials have been flawed b/c you say so.

Gene Archer.8560:

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem.

Problem: Gold is essentially the only currency that matters in the game.
Problem: Not everyone can gather enough gold for the things they want.
Problem: Low drop rates and low RNG make the game feel unrewarding, leading people to rely on farms for gold, because gold can be used to bypass low drop rates and low RNG

John Smith.4610:

I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

I’m not surprised. You’re also the guy that thought 10s of thousands of candy corn was a perfectly legitimate and fun to achieve price point for a mini pet and a 20-slot bag. And if you aren’t that guy, then slap whoever was.

John Smith.4610:

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.

So then do like Nike suggested several pages ago: Give us an updated graph of wealth distribution in the playerbase. End the speculation by giving everyone information that can be used. Like a graph. But don’t just say “I don’t see a problem. My metrics show no problem.”

As an old commercial once said: “Show me the Carfax”

Edit: Nike’s quote for great justice

Nike.2631:

John Smith.4610:

I do think it’s fair to say though that in many countries there is some unrest with the level of political power being wielded by smaller groups (note I’m making 0 value judgement on the concept itself, but it’s fair to say the idea exists) and this idea can sometimes be extended to an argument of wealth disparity. That unrest may be being projected into this environment, but I still see no evidence of that being an issue in GW2.

Really? Then your reluctance to publish a second distribution of wealth chart like the one released near launch makes no sense .

I think the main thing keeping the vast gulf between rich and average denizens of Tyria from boiling over into widespread fury is the systematically enforced ignorance of how bad it’s gotten.

If you really think it’s not a big deal, them more info is good, right? Post a current chart and get a real feel for whether it matters to people.

So in essence, you want John to help you validate your speculations as to why you think there’s a problem with the economy?

Part of debating is to bring forth evidence that backs your position. You can’t come to a debate, defend your position, and then ask the opposite side to provide evidence that would adhere to your theories.

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

Logic and reasoning are the only evidence we can have at our disposal, data points are something only you have access to.

Heres why having wealth disparity is bad.
People with an abnormal amount of wealth control the value of highly desirable items.

Now im not going to say they are manipulating or whatever, but the fact is, if you want to get an item that is highly desirable, you have to compete with people who can make much more than you can in the same time frame on the market.

Imagine you and a rich man have both lived your life in the pursuit of cool cars. Bill makes a cool car. You cannot compete with rich man for this car, even if you have put in equal work, because he makes more per unit of time than you do. In fact his earnings are geometric (to a limit) while yours are only additive.

Now, while this might be ok, if he was a better car man than you, he is not, he is simply better at making money.

Essentially endgame is controlled by the wealthy

Gene Archer.8560:

Problem: Gold is essentially the only currency that matters in the game.
Problem: Not everyone can gather enough gold for the things they want.
Problem: Low drop rates and low RNG make the game feel unrewarding, leading people to rely on farms for gold, because gold can be used to bypass low drop rates and low RNG

I had to split my post, so I could respond directly to this.

1) Gold being the main currency is not a problem.
2) Everyone can gather enough Gold to get things they want. You can either put in efforts to get the Gold, or you can buy Gems and convert it. The only problem would be the players who don’t want to put in the efforts to make Gold. Vol gave some advice to help with this problem, so please read his posts.
3) Low drop rates / RNG = rarity. Rarity is not a problem. The individual player’s needs and desires are the problem. They want the best rewards here and now, but don’t understand that if you make something easily obtainable, the item is no longer rare and desired.

John Smith.4610:

This is a virtual economy, you may not assign the same speculative rules.
Read through why increasing wealth inequality is bad for a real economy and then apply that setting to gw2 as an argument.

PS Eve does not have a global economy.

So are you asking for the sociological impact that it would have in a game? Things like “eroding self-esteem, promoting social dislocation, unrest and conflict”?

Or going for a pure numbers version?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Part of debating is to bring forth evidence that backs your position. You can’t come to a debate, defend your position, and then ask the opposite side to provide evidence that would adhere to your theories.

All that can be done is speculation, because the necessary information is being kept away from our hands. You say to provide proof, but proof can’t be provided unless all information is made available. Otherwise you ask the impossible.

John Smith.4610:

Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.

every cog in the economic system brings value to the system, from the material gathers to the crafters to the gamblers to the hunters.

The question is why do the flippers have comparitively geometric earning potential while all the others have an additive earning potential.

Why repeatedly balance item aquisition crafting recipes, monster kills, but never balance TP wealth gains?

I know you guys want money to be the main currency, and be the most valued thing, because you sell currency. However, you are messing up the game if the only way to succeed in a timely fashion is to play the TP, because the games is not sold as a TP game.

In a game ruled by money, where most of the endgame can be purchased, the one who has the most money wins the game

John Smith.4610:

2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.
3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

I’m not saying anything in particular. I would just like to propose a question.

Excluding individual entities: Does a wealth gap provide for prices of some goods to be maintained by the spread of that gap and the ability of those on top of it to pay?

phys.7689:

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

Logic and reasoning are the only evidence we can have at our disposal, data points are something only you have access to.

Heres why having wealth disparity is bad.
People with an abnormal amount of wealth control the value of highly desirable items.

Now im not going to say they are manipulating or whatever, but the fact is, if you want to get an item that is highly desirable, you have to compete with people who can make much more than you can in the same time frame on the market.

Imagine you and a rich man have both lived your life in the pursuit of cool cars. Bill makes a cool car. You cannot compete with rich man for this car, even if you have put in equal work, because he makes more per unit of time than you do. In fact his earnings are geometric (to a limit) while yours are only additive.

Now, while this might be ok, if he was a better car man than you, he is not, he is simply better at making money.

Essentially endgame is controlled by the wealthy

This is false. While it’s true that rich players can influence a market, they cannot control it. Even with high end items, new ones are generated daily. Rich players can keep buying it to try and corner a market, but their wealth is not infinite.

If you want to control the Dusk market, you must be able to not only prevent players from having their Buy Orders filled, but you must also be able to have the lowest priced listings so you can sell them. You have to be able to do this constantly, as new Dusks keep on being generated. Then you have the problem that you’re not the only rich person, so competition in the same market will drive prices down, thus lower profits.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

So in essence, you want John to help you validate your speculations as to why you think there’s a problem with the economy?

Part of debating is to bring forth evidence that backs your position. You can’t come to a debate, defend your position, and then ask the opposite side to provide evidence that would adhere to your theories.

heres your problem smooth, to you this is a debate.
a debate is essentially a game where the goal is to win. You supress ideas that are against you and try to win for your side.

Now if this is a discussion, in which we are looking for solutions, then data sharing per request is useful.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

Logic and reasoning are the only evidence we can have at our disposal, data points are something only you have access to.

Heres why having wealth disparity is bad.
People with an abnormal amount of wealth control the value of highly desirable items.

Now im not going to say they are manipulating or whatever, but the fact is, if you want to get an item that is highly desirable, you have to compete with people who can make much more than you can in the same time frame on the market.

Imagine you and a rich man have both lived your life in the pursuit of cool cars. Bill makes a cool car. You cannot compete with rich man for this car, even if you have put in equal work, because he makes more per unit of time than you do. In fact his earnings are geometric (to a limit) while yours are only additive.

Now, while this might be ok, if he was a better car man than you, he is not, he is simply better at making money.

Essentially endgame is controlled by the wealthy

This is false. While it’s true that rich players can influence a market, they cannot control it. Even with high end items, new ones are generated daily. Rich players can keep buying it to try and corner a market, but their wealth is not infinite.

If you want to control the Dusk market, you must be able to not only prevent players from having their Buy Orders filled, but you must also be able to have the lowest priced listings so you can sell them. You have to be able to do this constantly, as new Dusks keep on being generated. Then you have the problem that you’re not the only rich person, so competition in the same market will drive prices down, thus lower profits.

i dont mean control in terms of absolute god control i mean rather simply this.

the person with the most money decides how much something of value costs. If i want dusk and he wants dusk, he can pick his price, i cannot compete with him.

The point is this, dusk is marketed to the people who are probably in the top 25% of wealth. This means for 75% of people this endgame item is out of reach. This problem will only grow as the disparity grows.
When the richest 25% are at
100000 average gold
other 75% are at 100 average gold, you create a situation where regular players cannot compete for items.

this is why wealth disparity is a problem

Smooth Penguin.5294:

1) Gold being the main currency is not a problem.

It is when it’s the only way to aquire anything and various activities pay out far different amounts.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

2) Everyone can gather enough Gold to get things they want. You can either put in efforts to get the Gold, or you can buy Gems and convert it. The only problem would be the players who don’t want to put in the efforts to make Gold. Vol gave some advice to help with this problem, so please read his posts.

I read Vol’s guide. Depending on how the rest of megaserver is being rolled out, that guide may become useless. It’s certainly taking a hit, what with schedules. It’s a decent guide, I will admit that.

As for effort. Effort according to who? You keep saying people need to put in effort to make gold, but then people put in all kinds of different effort based on what they’re doing and they’re skill level in it. Someone could do a jumping puzzle and put in just as much effort as someone flipping on the tp because that person has a harder time with jumping puzzles, but the person doing the jumping puzzle is rewarded far less at the end of the day despite putting in equivalent effort.

If effort is to be a measuring stick, then equivalent effort has to give equivalent reward across the board. Otherwise effort is meaningless.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

3) Low drop rates / RNG = rarity. Rarity is not a problem. The individual player’s needs and desires are the problem. They want the best rewards here and now, but don’t understand that if you make something easily obtainable, the item is no longer rare and desired.

The only change is that the item is no longer rare. Rarity does not dictate desire for every person. Treating it as Rarity = Desire is folly at best.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Part of debating is to bring forth evidence that backs your position. You can’t come to a debate, defend your position, and then ask the opposite side to provide evidence that would adhere to your theories.

All that can be done is speculation, because the necessary information is being kept away from our hands. You say to provide proof, but proof can’t be provided unless all information is made available. Otherwise you ask the impossible.

This hits the nail on the head. All anyone can do is speculate because the data cannot be accessed by anyone but Anet so we have no choice but to accept their interpretations of said data.
I’d love to know the top 1% of players and or guilds buying and selling the precursors in the last few weeks and the volumes they have purchased and then put on sale compared to the rest of the player base. The old adage is it takes money to make money.

william dj.6953:

phys.7689 “Imagine you and a rich man have both lived your life in the pursuit of cool cars. Bill makes a cool car. You cannot compete with rich man for this car, even if you have put in equal work, because he makes more per unit of time than you do. In fact his earnings are geometric (to a limit) while yours are only additive.”

If Bill stays up late studying learning everything he can to make more money to buy a better care. While I slept. Would he deserve a better car? Would the hours he spent outside of actually working to learn how to make money be counted as hours spent to earn more money? Seriously not trolling here. But these are the problems I see in that statement. To be good at tp requires more than just looking at prices on the tp while logged in the game.

Just to hopefully clarify for you.

He is not saying Bill is one of the purchasers of the car. Bill is not in competition. The 2 in competition were “you and a rich man” for Bill’s car. The assumption is that all effort is a constant and that only cash is a variable. I think that’s what they were trying to say.

@Essence Snow, very possible I misunderstood that. Won’t be the first time. I would like for you to answer my questions in the second and last paragraph of that post though.

the part I just edited in. If your answer is regardless of time spent to gold earned should be equal. And you are very persistent at using real life situations. I would have to believe you feel a heart surgeon should earn exactly what a paperboy makes.

People have been using precursors and legendaries a lot to show how rich are driving up prices as they are manipulating, or the only ones competing for these items. Well I don’t have numbers but I do have this post from another thread

John Smith.4610:

It’s unlikely that you’ve ever traded on a market that hasn’t sold an item in the last 2 hours.

and this one here…

John Smith.4610:

Actually 9 have sold in the last 24 hours.

Edit: ^Referancing Twilight

While we can’t have exact data we can see from these posts that even with the highest value luxury goods it is impossible for only the richest of players to be the ones purchasing and manipulating the prices such that they rise out players’ reaches. There is more movement to these markets then we think, more movement than can be controlled by the wealthiest.

At this time, I actually wonder what are these items people complain about they cannot afford?

Legendaries and Pre Cursors come to mind of course but in the end, they are just some fancy skin, just like any other fancy and expensive skin. In my opinion, you dont need a fancy skin in order to play the game, its completely optional and not required to enjoy any content the game offers.

Whats next on the list? Best in slot gear (ascended).
For now, its impossible to obtain best in slot gear with only gold, so where is the problem?

I think people are just complaining that they cant afford items that are completely optional, be it skins or other high valued cosmetic items, exotic minis or convenience items, like permanent contracts.

But as i said, those are not required (expect asc gear) to enjoy all game content without disadvantages.

william dj.6953:

@Essence Snow, very possible I misunderstood that. Won’t be the first time. I would like for you to answer my questions in the second and last paragraph of that post though.

the part I just edited in. If your answer is regardless of time spent to gold earned should be equal. And you are very persistent at using real life situations. I would have to believe you feel a heart surgeon should earn exactly what a paperboy makes.

Should the guy who works 80 hours a day with back breaking labor earn less than the guy who works 80 hours a day watching market trends?

Who can say, too many factors too many situations. The answer in our society? whoever can make people think what they do is more valuable. But that doesnt really mean one is any better than the others.

who should get paid more firefighter or heart surgeon?
teacher or banker?
architect or electrician?
land owner or share cropper?
who knows

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Part of debating is to bring forth evidence that backs your position. You can’t come to a debate, defend your position, and then ask the opposite side to provide evidence that would adhere to your theories.

All that can be done is speculation, because the necessary information is being kept away from our hands. You say to provide proof, but proof can’t be provided unless all information is made available. Otherwise you ask the impossible.

This hits the nail on the head. All anyone can do is speculate because the data cannot be accessed by anyone but Anet so we have no choice but to accept their interpretations of said data.
I’d love to know the top 1% of players and or guilds buying and selling the precursors in the last few weeks and the volumes they have purchased and then put on sale compared to the rest of the player base. The old adage is it takes money to make money.

As John said, first you have to give a good arguement that wealth disparity is actually a problem before he should prove that wealth disparity does or does not exist.

Concerning Precursors, John released some data 7 months ago ( when some precursors were bought out) that showed how much of those precursors (legend and dusk or dawn) were actually traded within 2 1/2 days.

IIRC, it was between 20-30 per day (while there was next to no supply on the TP) and it also showed individual buyers or sellers. From about 150 precursors of those 2 mentioned, that got traded within 2 1/2 days, less than 5 got bought or sold by the same seller/buyer.

I will look for the link…

Wanze.8410:

I think people are just complaining that they cant afford items that are completely optional, be it skins or other high valued cosmetic items, exotic minis or convenience items, like permanent contracts.

But as i said, those are not required (expect asc gear) to enjoy all game content without disadvantages.

It’s also less fun to play the game without shinies, because for one, MMOs are essentially about obtaining shinies, and two, cosmetic items are one of the main features of at least this game, specifically.

And if we’re going to take the requirement route, and we do establish that none of these things are required, then gold beyond what’s needed to enjoy all game content isn’t required. And if that gold isn’t actually required, there’s nothing wrong with nerfing the tp or taking said gold from the rich, beyond what they need to enjoy game content.

John Smith.4610:

Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.

I’ll take shot at this. Fore what point of “equilibrium” do you feel is just per item? You, John Smith, are setting the available supply chain and influencing demand by setting the volumes required for crating, no? As such, you are then greatly influencing the subsequent price point. Linen and silk prices are what they are today because of the developers choices much more than the players. Even when players found a readily available supply chain of Linen, the developers quickly modified it to generate less. Essentially, we’re playing to your price points, right? Commodity brokers simply supply a cache of supply to help keep fluctuations nominal.

For those whom blame champ trains as the root of all evil, I’d challenge that opinion highly. A player running dungeons creates gold far faster than when running a champion train. Even the Queens Jubilee, in my best estimation, more gold was created from the Arena than the champ train running below it. At least the train actually increase the supply of some goods and materials which lowers prices.

In contrast to champ trains, dungeons create far more gold than items. Thus running Dungeons would increase prices due to the extra supply of gold in the economy.

Flipping does not increase supply though act as a gold sink which should lessen prices. Though, the act of flipping affects the perception of value. Which can certainly increase limited item prices.

With all that said, let’s get to the behavioral incentives/disincentives. For players running the trains, I say leave them alone. Dungeons gold generation should be reduced as they are too lucrative from a less social mode of play. For TP flipping, well, it is an extremely solitary play style. Maybe there should be incentives to get out in the world more. Bringing it back to the original topic of TP taxes. Would the game be better off if people spent less time idle while playing the TP, it’s certainly possible.

For the punishing wealth discussion, I’ve never seen a study stating the consolidation of wealth, power, or influence as being a “good thing” for any ecosystem or social grouping. In many aspects, diversity and balance, is paramount to health.

btw… since it’s probable JS may read this thread again, please remove the “Top Demanded Items” from the BLTC page. It’s become a blight upon the TP. There’s already been threads a while back about how it’s become a sham. You wanted to know if something negatively affects players, well, every time I see that it kittenes me off! And, it’s more than likely one of you in this thread that put all those consortium mask buy orders up there. You should be ashamed, really.

DeWolfe.2174:

Though, the act of flipping affects the perception of value. Which can certainly increase limited item prices.

I’m not following. Please state why this is.

John Smith.4610:

3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

I think you mean the prices are close to what a normal player could earn in the time it would take them to get one, or some such type of data.

It might be ineresting to see what type of data are you using to figure that.
Is it the amount of precursors created compared to the amount of hours played, then multiplied by the amount the average player makes= cost of precursor

Is it the amount of materials spent on average creating one in the forge?

The formula tells a lot here honestly.

OK, here it is:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Dusk-sold-out-1-Left/first#post2713593

81 Dusks Sold over 60 hours, 5 of those were sold by someone who sold at least 1 more at the same day, all buyers were unique.

37 The Legend sold over 60 hours, all of them had unique buyers and sellers.

So only 11 of 118 of those 2 precursors could have possibly been sold by the same person within 60 hours, if we consider the person also sold 1 Legend every day.

So for 2 precursors, where players suspected foul play and market manipulation, all had unique buyers and less than 10% of the trading volume could have possibly come form the same person.

Do you think you can effectively influence a market while only being responsible for 10% of the trading volume, or is the price, in fact, set by supply and demand of the other individual 100+ individual traders?

phys.7689:

John Smith.4610:

3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

I think you mean the prices are close to what a normal player could earn in the time it would take them to get one, or some such type of data.

It might be ineresting to see what type of data are you using to figure that.
Is it the amount of precursors created compared to the amount of hours played, then multiplied by the amount the average player makes= cost of precursor

Is it the amount of materials spent on average creating one in the forge?

The formula tells a lot here honestly.

I don’t think he’s using any sort of formula looking at how much gold an average player makes. I think he’s just looking at how many of these items are being bought and sold and by whom. As Wanze and I have pointed out these items move a lot faster than we think they do, despite their enormous price. Moving too fast for the wealthiest players to manipulate the price up in any significant way.

DeWolfe.2174:

1. Even when players found a readily available supply chain of Linen, the developers quickly modified it to generate less. Essentially, we’re playing to your price points, right?
2. For the punishing wealth discussion, I’ve never seen a study stating the consolidation of wealth, power, or influence as being a “good thing” for any ecosystem or social grouping. In many aspects, diversity and balance, is paramount to health.

1. I am pretty sure,if every player went to that spot, farmed their daily need of 40 linen
   and would have left, Anet wouldnt have had a problem with it. But people did it multiple hours per day, not to get Linen but to get gold.
2. Nobody here ever claimed that the (assumed) wealth disparity in GW2 is a good thing. If wealth disparity really exists in this game, it still might have minimal impact. John asked for prove/arguements why it presumably a bad thing.

phys.7689:

i dont mean control in terms of absolute god control i mean rather simply this.

the person with the most money decides how much something of value costs. If i want dusk and he wants dusk, he can pick his price, i cannot compete with him.

The point is this, dusk is marketed to the people who are probably in the top 25% of wealth. This means for 75% of people this endgame item is out of reach. This problem will only grow as the disparity grows.
When the richest 25% are at
100000 average gold
other 75% are at 100 average gold, you create a situation where regular players cannot compete for items.

this is why wealth disparity is a problem

The market as a whole determines the price of any item.

When Dusk dropped for me a year ago, I was poor. I had just finished gearing up a new 80 and had less than a gold on me. It took me two weeks just to save up enough money for the listing fee. When I did list it, I priced it slightly higher than the lowest sell order and it sold in a few hours, making me almost 600 gold richer.

This happens many times every day. Anyone trying to “control” the prices of Dusk will have to compete with every random player who gets one and sells it for less than the TP baron would like. It takes a little patience and intelligence, but as long as your expectations are reasonable you can get the items you want. Place a buy order for what you are willing to pay, or wait for a sell order to appear at the right price. The market shifts prices up and down, eventually an reasonable offer will be accepted.

The only items that a player can even attempt to control are those that can no longer be obtained in the game. Back skins from previous events and such, the original Halloween weapons, things like this have a finite supply and in theory, at least, it would be possible for a person to control the market at least for a short while. But should this become a concern Anet already has a solution, and they have done it before: they can reintroduce the item to the game. A fresh supply of the same or very similar item will increase supply, drive down prices, and take the coin from those sales out of the hands of the individual controlling the market and put it into the hands for random players.

He’s beating around the bush a little, but basically what JS is saying is that you’re trying to solve a problem that doesn’t actually exist. The burden of proof is on the accuser, and after going on about this for so long if there was any shred of truth to these claims it would have come to light by now.