Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

heres your problem smooth, to you this is a debate.
a debate is essentially a game where the goal is to win. You supress ideas that are against you and try to win for your side.

Now if this is a discussion, in which we are looking for solutions, then data sharing per request is useful.

In order to discuss solutions, there first must be a problem. So since there is no problem, it becomes a debate on why you perceive there to be one.

phys.7689:

i dont mean control in terms of absolute god control i mean rather simply this.

the person with the most money decides how much something of value costs. If i want dusk and he wants dusk, he can pick his price, i cannot compete with him.

The point is this, dusk is marketed to the people who are probably in the top 25% of wealth. This means for 75% of people this endgame item is out of reach. This problem will only grow as the disparity grows.
When the richest 25% are at
100000 average gold
other 75% are at 100 average gold, you create a situation where regular players cannot compete for items.

this is why wealth disparity is a problem

Another false statement. All 100% of players have access to Dusk via RNG. Assuming your 25% number is accurate, that only means 25% of the population can get “instant gratification by purchasing it”.

Also, the rich don’t determine overall prices. Supply and Demand do. As John said, even without TP Barons, prices would be roughly the same.

phys.7689:

i dont mean control in terms of absolute god control i mean rather simply this.

the person with the most money decides how much something of value costs. If i want dusk and he wants dusk, he can pick his price, i cannot compete with him.

The point is this, dusk is marketed to the people who are probably in the top 25% of wealth. This means for 75% of people this endgame item is out of reach. This problem will only grow as the disparity grows.
When the richest 25% are at
100000 average gold
other 75% are at 100 average gold, you create a situation where regular players cannot compete for items.

this is why wealth disparity is a problem

Also, even rich people count only as 1 consumer. They wont neccessarily consume 10 times more just because they have 10 times more gold than the average player. They influence supply and demand of an item as much as anybody else.

Schizo.1375:

DeWolfe.2174:

Though, the act of flipping affects the perception of value. Which can certainly increase limited item prices.

I’m not following. Please state why this is.

Ones desires are highly influenced by the desires, behaviors, and possessions of others. It mostly stems from wanting to fit in, to stand out, and/or not wanting to be left out. I know it seems irrelevant in an economic discussion but, an economy and the emotional state of those in it are intertwined.

Which is something I’ll add about the “are rich bad for the economy” discussion. Player perception isn’t easily quantifiable in TP prices. It’s not like anyone is polling player opinions really. Put out a poll with scaling, asking if players feel traders are good. If the majority believe they are not, then you have a problem brewing.

The issue I would dread most, if I were a developer, would be a player experiencing a feeling of futility. A grinding sensation can lead a player to a feeling of futility. Knowledge of a wealth gap could certainly exacerbate such a feeling too. So maybe a better question is, do the wealthy traders generate good or bad feeling amongst players?

Wanze.8410:

DeWolfe.2174:

1. Even when players found a readily available supply chain of Linen, the developers quickly modified it to generate less. Essentially, we’re playing to your price points, right?
2. For the punishing wealth discussion, I’ve never seen a study stating the consolidation of wealth, power, or influence as being a “good thing” for any ecosystem or social grouping. In many aspects, diversity and balance, is paramount to health.

1. I am pretty sure,if every player went to that spot, farmed their daily need of 40 linen
   and would have left, Anet wouldnt have had a problem with it. But people did it multiple hours per day, not to get Linen but to get gold.
2. Nobody here ever claimed that the (assumed) wealth disparity in GW2 is a good thing. If wealth disparity really exists in this game, it still might have minimal impact. John asked for prove/arguements why it presumably a bad thing.

TY, yes you are all posting faster than I can read, multi task, and reply tonight Most of what I’m thinking get’s asked and answered while I have the reply window open

For the linen, yes I would agree with your assessment. Just last night I went there to get my linen for Damask. Nothing went on the TP as it was only for personal use. Though I was the only person there. Most are still afraid of the area due to the mishandling of the bans there.

Gene Archer.8560:

It is when it’s the only way to aquire anything and various activities pay out far different amounts.

False. Gold is not the only way to acquire something. And the pay out for various events or activities depends on the effort it takes to do it.

Gene Archer.8560:

As for effort. Effort according to who? You keep saying people need to put in effort to make gold, but then people put in all kinds of different effort based on what they’re doing and they’re skill level in it. Someone could do a jumping puzzle and put in just as much effort as someone flipping on the tp because that person has a harder time with jumping puzzles, but the person doing the jumping puzzle is rewarded far less at the end of the day despite putting in equivalent effort.

If effort is to be a measuring stick, then equivalent effort has to give equivalent reward across the board. Otherwise effort is meaningless.

False. You’re comparing different things. Flipping on the TP is mainly to turn profit. That type of “reward” is existing coin being transferred between players. Doing a Jumping Puzzle is a challenge that has a reward at the end. This type of “reward” generates coin and items that didn’t exist before, which add to the economy. Plus, effort doing one is not equal to effort doing the other. Just as effort to get straight As in school is not equal to the effort of bench pressing 300 lbs.

By simplifying the distinction between the efforts of a TP player, with the efforts of a player just trying to kill the Shadow Behemoth, we back with the “Entitlement” argument. If a TP player spends 5 minutes making 100 Gold, then the player killing the Shadow Behemoth wants 100 Gold for his 5 minutes too.

Gene Archer.8560:

The only change is that the item is no longer rare. Rarity does not dictate desire for every person. Treating it as Rarity = Desire is folly at best.

The whole purpose of an item being rare is to alter the desires to have it. How many times have people said to themselves “I want that Jetback skin.” Then compare it to how many people would say “I want that Cabalist Hood skin”. A clear example of this would be for the staff Final Rest. It was so uber ultra rare, than it spawned a community of hunters to find it. Now that it drops so often, no one even bothers wielding it if they had one.

DeWolfe.2174:

Ones desires are highly influenced by the desires, behaviors, and possessions of others. It mostly stems from wanting to fit in, to stand out, and/or not wanting to be left out. I know it seems irrelevant in an economic discussion but, an economy and the emotional state of those in it are intertwined.

I understand this part. What I don’t understand is how a feeling of futility makes the market bad for them. These feelings are all self imposed.

Wanze.8410:

OK, here it is:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Dusk-sold-out-1-Left/first#post2713593

81 Dusks Sold over 60 hours, 5 of those were sold by someone who sold at least 1 more at the same day, all buyers were unique.

37 The Legend sold over 60 hours, all of them had unique buyers and sellers.

So only 11 of 118 of those 2 precursors could have possibly been sold by the same person within 60 hours, if we consider the person also sold 1 Legend every day.

So for 2 precursors, where players suspected foul play and market manipulation, all had unique buyers and less than 10% of the trading volume could have possibly come form the same person.

Do you think you can effectively influence a market while only being responsible for 10% of the trading volume, or is the price, in fact, set by supply and demand of the other individual 100+ individual traders?

Not to burst your bubble but that data is 7 months old and has little or no relevance to the current market situation. I would like to see today’s data and how it compares, if there is nothing to hide, no abnormal wealth trends etc. why not bring it out for all to see and put the speculation to rest….yup thought not.

No reason to goad Anet for data they don’t freely give out … The data is as relevant now as it was 7 months ago. We haven’t seen order of magnitude increases in key economic performance indicators.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

But you can’t balance player skill. Period. Some players are good at what they do. They use the same mechanics that’s available to all players. If more players played the TP, even remotely well, then the acquisition rate of wealth would diminish.

Also, you’re technically not making money from the TP. You’re just taking it from other players.

To use a different example (not skill related): If I could play 4 hours more per day than the average, would you be asking to “balance” my play time so I’m more in line with everyone else?

It’s not the skill that should be balanced (as you note it’s impossible) it’s the mechanic. It sort of along the same reasoning of time gating. It’s not to punish players who have the time, but to balance the mechanic.

What you guys are calling “mechanic” is actually “results”. You want equal “results” for everyone across the board.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

False. You’re comparing different things. Flipping on the TP is mainly to turn profit. That type of “reward” is existing coin being transferred between players. Doing a Jumping Puzzle is a challenge that has a reward at the end. This type of “reward” generates coin and items that didn’t exist before, which add to the economy.

I’m comparing their effort, which is simply: “Was a serious attempt made. Was work put into it”

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Plus, effort doing one is not equal to effort doing the other. Just as effort to get straight As in school is not equal to the effort of bench pressing 300 lbs.

Again, there is only one kind of effort. If you’re describing mainly differences, then you’re talking about skill sets and various skills. There is no such thing as different kinds of effort.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

By simplifying the distinction between the efforts of a TP player, with the efforts of a player just trying to kill the Shadow Behemoth, we back with the “Entitlement” argument. If a TP player spends 5 minutes making 100 Gold, then the player killing the Shadow Behemoth wants 100 Gold for his 5 minutes too.

And if in that five minutes, the SB slayer put in equivalent effort, then it’s fair to expect the same 100 gold.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A clear example of this would be for the staff Final Rest. It was so uber ultra rare, than it spawned a community of hunters to find it. Now that it drops so often, no one even bothers wielding it if they had one.

Do you really want to make this claim? Because I know at least one person that does in fact wear Final Rest, and I can deliver a screen shot to you tomorrow of them using said Final Rest (it would be tonight, but they’re not online) They don’t care about its rarity, and they never did. They only cared that it looked cool to them.

Rarity is not the only factor for desire. Stop trying to act like it is.

KarateKid.5648:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

But you can’t balance player skill. Period. Some players are good at what they do. They use the same mechanics that’s available to all players. If more players played the TP, even remotely well, then the acquisition rate of wealth would diminish.

Also, you’re technically not making money from the TP. You’re just taking it from other players.

To use a different example (not skill related): If I could play 4 hours more per day than the average, would you be asking to “balance” my play time so I’m more in line with everyone else?

It’s not the skill that should be balanced (as you note it’s impossible) it’s the mechanic. It sort of along the same reasoning of time gating. It’s not to punish players who have the time, but to balance the mechanic.

What you guys are calling “mechanic” is actually “results”. You want equal “results” for everyone across the board.

I can adhere to results for the most part, but not to equal. There’s no chance of them being equal. That would be unrealistic. Same ball park though is where we are cooking with gas.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

By simplifying the distinction between the efforts of a TP player, with the efforts of a player just trying to kill the Shadow Behemoth, we back with the “Entitlement” argument. If a TP player spends 5 minutes making 100 Gold, then the player killing the Shadow Behemoth wants 100 Gold for his 5 minutes too.

And if in that five minutes, the SB slayer put in equivalent effort, then it’s fair to expect the same 100 gold.

Just wanted to point out the one reply that completely invalidated your whole argument.

If I put in effort to make 100 Gold within 5 minutes of using the TP, you want all players who put in the same effort in whatever they’re doing, to get same amount of Gold. This isn’t an argument for equality or fairness. This is Entitlement in its purest sense.

To put this further into context, the effort I put in was the result of some thinking, a few mouse clicks, and number pressing. So now you expect all players, no matter what they’re doing, to get the same results as me for thinking, clicking, and key pressing. Spam 1 on Shadow Behemoth, get 100 Gold. Do Lion’s Arch Jumping Puzzle, get 100 Gold. Run from point A to point B in Queensdale, get 100 Gold.

tolunart.2095:

This happens many times every day. Anyone trying to “control” the prices of Dusk will have to compete with every random player who gets one and sells it for less than the TP baron would like. It takes a little patience and intelligence, but as long as your expectations are reasonable you can get the items you want. Place a buy order for what you are willing to pay, or wait for a sell order to appear at the right price. The market shifts prices up and down, eventually an reasonable offer will be accepted.

The only items that a player can even attempt to control are those that can no longer be obtained in the game. Back skins from previous events and such, the original Halloween weapons, things like this have a finite supply and in theory, at least, it would be possible for a person to control the market at least for a short while. But should this become a concern Anet already has a solution, and they have done it before: they can reintroduce the item to the game. A fresh supply of the same or very similar item will increase supply, drive down prices, and take the coin from those sales out of the hands of the individual controlling the market and put it into the hands for random players.

^ This is my analysis of the situation too. While I think it is possible for a rich player (or a cartel of such players) to corner the market on an extremely rare item, I don’t believe it is really a problem because if the player base makes enough noise or clamours for an item hard enough, chances are good ANet will simply bring the item back. They did it for the Southsun items. They did it for the Fused/Sclerite/Dragon’s Jade weapons. They did it for the Jetpack, Monocle and other Living Story items. ANet has demonstrated that they are more than willing to break trading monopolies, so any attempt by people to control such markets is really tempting fate. (Especially if enough players complain about it.)

So yes, while I do think it’s not “good” (in that it does breed jealousy and envy) for there to be such consolidation of wealth in the hands of a few, these people are also limited with regards to any harm they might actively try to cause the wider player base. (And if they did, I have confidence ANet would take action to rectify the situation and punish the offenders.)

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A clear example of this would be for the staff Final Rest. It was so uber ultra rare, than it spawned a community of hunters to find it. Now that it drops so often, no one even bothers wielding it if they had one.

Do you really want to make this claim? Because I know at least one person that does in fact wear Final Rest, and I can deliver a screen shot to you tomorrow of them using said Final Rest (it would be tonight, but they’re not online) They don’t care about its rarity, and they never did. They only cared that it looked cool to them.

Rarity is not the only factor for desire. Stop trying to act like it is.

To be fair, Smooth is right in that for a LOT of players, price and rarity IS what motivates them to get certain items. You can see it in how many people you see using Legendaries and other expensive items. If you were a GW1 vet, you saw it too in how many people were using Black/White dyed Obsidian Armor and Chaos Gloves (and a Blindfold sometimes too). For many of these items, it is not so much the aesthetics of the item that matters to them. It is the bragging rights of “Look at how rich I am!” that they REALLY want.

But on the other side of the coin, I do also empathise with the look hunters. There can be players who honestly do not care for the price of a Legendary, or the status that such an expensive weapon brings; all they want is a silly-looking bow that shoots rainbow unicorns, because it is awesome. And for these players, the price of the Dreamer is such that they cannot achieve their in-game goal without a lot of disproportionate effort than a player who liked Kasmeer’s Staff just as much as the player who wants the Dreamer, and just bought it for 600 gems.

I’m just pointing out that both sides are not inherently wrong; ANet has to walk a balancing act between making both sides happy.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If I put in effort to make 100 Gold within 5 minutes of using the TP, you want all players who put in the same effort in whatever they’re doing, to get same amount of Gold.

Yes, precisely.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

This isn’t an argument for equality or fairness.

Lolwut. Yes it is.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

This is Entitlement in its purest sense.

And entitlement is not automatically a bad thing.

Why don’t you explain to me, then, why equivalent effort should not be granted equivalent reward? Why is it fair for one person to get more than another person if they have put in equivalent work effort? If effort is the only bar we’re going by for rewards and such, then equivalent effort should lead to equivalent reward, otherwise effort is rendered meaningless as a measuring tool.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To put this further into context, the effort I put in was the result of some thinking, a few mouse clicks, and number pressing. So now you expect all players, no matter what they’re doing, to get the same results as me for thinking, clicking, and key pressing.

If those are the bars for effort, then yes. This is exactly what I am saying. And there is nothing wrong with thinking this way.

Zaxares.5419:

I’m just pointing out that both sides are not inherently wrong; ANet has to walk a balancing act between making both sides happy.

The only thing I’m saying he’s wrong about is to say that rarity is the only thing that effects desire, which he is absolutely wrong about.

Also, you’re technically not making money from the TP. You’re just taking it from other players.

You keep making this distinction, and while it may matter from a purely economic perspective, please just accept that it doesn’t matter even one tiny bit from a player perspective. If you end up with more money than you started with, then YOU ARE MAKING MONEY, whether that money is coming from another player or being generated out of wholecloth by the game. If someon goes to work at McDonald, you don’t say that they “aren’t making money” just because the paycheck they bring home is fulfilled from the money people spent on Big Macs rather than handed directly to them from the Treasury. Please just abandon that line of reasoning, I assure you that it will never gain you an ounce of traction.

To use a different example (not skill related): If I could play 4 hours more per day than the average, would you be asking to “balance” my play time so I’m more in line with everyone else?

Me? Probably not. If you’ve got more time you’ve got more time, but there are plenty of games that “balance” playtime by having systems of diminishing returns, for example having daily rewards so that you can’t just repeatedly do the same content, or “rested XP” that reduces your performance after you’ve played for a certain amount of time between breaks. It’s not unheard of.

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

If you’re asking for “a problem that will destroy the economy as a self-contained and idealized mechanism,” then there might not be one. I have no way of even defining such a thing. But what I, at least, am describing is a problem of player faith in the system and enjoyment of it. The mechanisms of the economy could be flowing perfectly fine, but this is a game as a whole and the economy is only one element of it, and if it “functions” perfectly well but still leaves players disgruntled in it, then it cannot be described as a total success.

What concerns me more than anything is how little this seems to concern you.

Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.

I wouldn’t mind it, if they did not profit so successfully at it. Players are perfectly good at reaching equilibrium with or without flippers, so that’s not an issue. What would really help us reach equilibrium even faster though, even without the magic of flippers, is if you actually added to the UI a display of the average sell price for a given item over the past hour, day, and year. Not the sell or buy orders, but the actual price an item left the market for. So if a bunch of sell orders were filled at 2g and a bunch of buy orders were filled at 1.80g, and the average between them ended up around 1.95g, then players would know that the equilibrium point was closer to that figure, and that if they put up a sell order at 1.95 it would be likely to move very quickly, and get well more than the 1.80. Information would make flippers completely obsolete.

This is a virtual economy, you may not assign the same speculative rules.
Read through why increasing wealth inequality is bad for a real economy and then apply that setting to gw2 as an argument.

The same rules that make economic inequality bad in the real world may not apply in a virtual world, particularly since the proletariat have no capability to put the bourgeoisie heads on pikes when they tell us to “eat cake.” (I’m aware I’m mixing social movements, but it’s a game). Just because the models used in a real world economics text don’t apply in a virtual world, doesn’t mean that economic Inequality is not a problem in a virtual world too, it just means the reasons have more to do with players tolerance of the system than they do with economic collapse.

I’m not surprised. You’re also the guy that thought 10s of thousands of candy corn was a perfectly legitimate and fun to achieve price point for a mini pet and a 20-slot bag. And if you aren’t that guy, then slap whoever was.

/Second. See also Jorbreakers.

As an old commercial once said: “Show me the Carfax”

/Second.

So in essence, you want John to help you validate your speculations as to why you think there’s a problem with the economy?

What are you afraid of? If we’re wrong then the data John could provide would validate your side of the argument. We aren’t asking him to make stuff up, we’re just asking him to provide the actual numbers we’re asking for. If we’re wrong then those numbers wouldn’t help us in the least, but we’d never know without having access to those numbers.

1) Gold being the main currency is not a problem.

It is in relation to the other points he made, namely that because gold is the primary currency, it means that the most efficient ways of earning gold are by far the most efficient way of earning anything else you might want. Because the TP is by far the most efficient way of earning gold, that puts a lot of responsibility on the TP for being a fair broker that everyone can believe in. If all TP transactions were made in, say, “Merchant points” that could not be exchanged for usuable items, then nobody would really care how easy or hard it would be to gain merchant points via the TP.

3) Low drop rates / RNG = rarity. Rarity is not a problem. The individual player’s needs and desires are the problem. They want the best rewards here and now, but don’t understand that if you make something easily obtainable, the item is no longer rare and desired.

Some people just don’t put much stock in “rarity.” I want the things I want, I don’t care whether they are one in a million drops or whether you can pick them up for 5c off a vendor, if they are the thing I want then they are the thing I want. Rarity doesn’t make them better, it just makes them more of a hassle to get.

3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

You say this, and yet I highly doubt that anyone would list an item for 3000g if nobody in the game owned 3000 gold.

Legendaries and Pre Cursors come to mind of course but in the end, they are just some fancy skin, just like any other fancy and expensive skin. In my opinion, you dont need a fancy skin in order to play the game, its completely optional and not required to enjoy any content the game offers.

And so long as you are the only one playing the game, your opinion on the matter is the only one that matters. Personally, I want those skins. Having them would make me happier. I think the same applies to a lot of other players. Having them or not is optional, but no more so than any element of the game, like being able to play without grouping, or being able to play a class that is as strong as the other classes, most things in the game are optional, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t important to get them right.

Whats next on the list? Best in slot gear (ascended).
For now, its impossible to obtain best in slot gear with only gold, so where is the problem?

That’s a weak argument. It is technically impossible to get BiS gear through “gold alone,” but they are still 95% gold. You need to personally level your craft to 500, which is an activity of pure gold. To make a full set of armor, you then need 6 Gossamer Insignia (gold), 30 globs of dark matter (gold), 120 Crystaline dust (gold), 24-36 bolts of Damask (gold), 0-18 Elonian Leather (gold), 0-16 Deldrimore Steel (gold), 720+ Gossamer Silk and thermo reagents (gold).

The ONLY portions you need for a full set of ascended armor that cannot be purchased with gold are 120 skill points, and tiiiiiiiiiiny dribbles of bloodstone, dragonite and empryials. It is far far far easier to accumulate those materials than it is to accumulate even a fraction of the gold you need to put those armors together. I have about 80+ stacks of Bloodstone and Dragonite just piling up, and nothing I can do with it without the stacks of money needed to round out every recipe that uses them.

Now, if Ascended armor took like 6 insignias, 6-12 pieces of ascended cloth/metal in total, no Dark Matter, ~20 Gossamer Thread total, and about 2-3 times as much bloodstone and dragonite, then maybe you could argue that they were “not for the TP fatcats,” but when 95% of the effort of putting one together is made up of “fatcat points” then you can’t reasonably argue that they are put so far out of their hands.

Also, the rich don’t determine overall prices. Supply and Demand do. As John said, even without TP Barons, prices would be roughly the same.

But he’s also suggested in the past that increasing their drop rate would only raise their market price, which goes the opposite of supply and demand.

Certainly a lot of these problems could be solved by just raising supply though.

If I put in effort to make 100 Gold within 5 minutes of using the TP, you want all players who put in the same effort in whatever they’re doing, to get same amount of Gold. This isn’t an argument for equality or fairness. This is Entitlement in its purest sense.

It is. On your part. You’re saying that if you put in effort to make 100 Gold within 5 minutes of using the TP, you don’t think that all players who put in the same effort in whatever they’re doing deserve to get same amount of Gold. If that isn’t entitlement then I don’t know what is.

To put this further into context, the effort I put in was the result of some thinking, a few mouse clicks, and number pressing. So now you expect all players, no matter what they’re doing, to get the same results as me for thinking, clicking, and key pressing. Spam 1 on Shadow Behemoth, get 100 Gold. Do Lion’s Arch Jumping Puzzle, get 100 Gold. Run from point A to point B in Queensdale, get 100 Gold.

Yuuuuup. Now I think we can all agree that that would be unreasonably inflationary and probably a very bad idea, so the solution is not to raise the rewards of everything else in the game to obscene levels, but instead to reduce the rewards of playing the TP to more reasonable levels, equivalent to other ingame activities.

John Smith.4610:

2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.

Are you an economist or a politician?
Not controlled? maybe
Try to say they are not manipulated……

3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

And this is where you are speculating without any proof.
As Always with a dash of retoric….

1) sigil of generosity…..
2) TP guilds
3) sum of tp barons

A single announcement can make items spike of 1000%…..and its not personal use.

I find quite unpleasant how you try to manipulate words…..this is not communication nor transparency.

Calm down, Byron. Your last post comes across as needlessly hostile.

I don’t have access to any more data than you do (updated wealth statistics sheet, JS? Pleeeeasseee?), but my own observations of the TP on a few occasions makes me inclined to believe what John is saying. The market in GW2 is HUGE. Like, REALLY HUGE. I was there when the Great Dye Frenzy of 2014 took place, and seeing all those dyes disappear and prices undergo such crazy swings in the space of just an hour before things stabilised told me that there must have been thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of players all frantically scrambling to try and get the most of the situation. (The fact, too, that the market stabilised as quickly as it did tells us a lot about the ability of a market to find equilibrium after a sudden shock.)

No single player, no matter how wealthy, can hope to come close to the kind of impact this mass of trading power the collective GW2 player base has. Even a cartel of wealthy players would probably find themselves hard pressed to match it.

I was there when the Great Dye Frenzy of 2014 took place, and seeing all those dyes disappear and prices undergo such crazy swings in the space of just an hour before things stabilised told me that there must have been thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of players all frantically scrambling to try and get the most of the situation. (The fact, too, that the market stabilised as quickly as it did tells us a lot about the ability of a market to find equilibrium after a sudden shock.)

Yeah, but that too is a symptom of the flaws in the Trading Post. I mean, do you really believe that thousands of players woke up that morning and went “I must have every color dye right away! I want to taste the rainbow!”

Of course not. They read a future patch note and estimated from it that the value of dyes in the future would be higher than what they were currently listed at, so they rushed out and immediately started buying them up until the prices capped at what the most reckless and/or stupid players decided that the future price would be (the “conservative” estimate having been passed much earlier), and then it sat there until everyone else had time to catch up and balance things out.

The price hit a “new normal” quickly enough, but the only people to really benefit form that was those who snapped first and bought up as much dye as they could store.

If players knew that it would be impossible to sell dyes back to the market, that any dyes they bought would only be for their own personal use, then they would be much more conservative in their purchases, and latecomers would have much more opportunity to take advantage of the lower original prices. There would be much less reason to speculate on what prices might be in the future, because worse case scenario you might have to pay slightly more for your own personal use of that color, rather than being able to potentially make dozens or even hundreds of gold in a couple of weeks off of making the right investments in them right now.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To put this further into context, the effort I put in was the result of some thinking, a few mouse clicks, and number pressing. So now you expect all players, no matter what they’re doing, to get the same results as me for thinking, clicking, and key pressing. Spam 1 on Shadow Behemoth, get 100 Gold. Do Lion’s Arch Jumping Puzzle, get 100 Gold. Run from point A to point B in Queensdale, get 100 Gold.

Yes. You are, of course free to think that such an effort is not worth 100 gold – and if you are, then i would agree with you. In that case, however, it should not give that much money regardless of the activity.

No single player, no matter how wealthy, can hope to come close to the kind of impact this mass of trading power the collective GW2 player base has. Even a cartel of wealthy players would probably find themselves hard pressed to match it.

Single player? No. A group of players? Definitely. As someone already mentioned, there wouldn’t be items on TP with 1k+ sale values if there weren’t people willing to spend that much (and huge majority of the players do not even own that much money).
Notice, that i am not talking about intentional control here – merely of an impact that huge wealth disparity has on the TP.

LordByron.8369:

John Smith.4610:

2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.

Are you an economist or a politician?
Not controlled? maybe
Try to say they are not manipulated……

3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

And this is where you are speculating without any proof.
As Always with a dash of retoric….

1) sigil of generosity…..
2) TP guilds
3) sum of tp barons

A single announcement can make items spike of 1000%…..and its not personal use.

I find quite unpleasant how you try to manipulate words…..this is not communication nor transparency.

You keep mentioning that Sigil and while it price did spike 5-10x depending on the type, it’s not the 100x you stated in a previous post (talking about rhetoric). And since there isn’t any new supply coming into the market since the event that hands them out is over, of course the price will increase.

And yes an announcement can cause a spike but that’s caused by “a run on the store”. And the spike in price occurs because the buying stops when all the “cheap” inventory are bought up. And when new supply is posted, it’s posted not at the old cheap price but at or slightly below the new low sale price. If there’s uncertainty in supply then players buy and hoard. If the uncertainty passes and supply really isn’t affected, prices will drift down toward previous levels. If not a new price equilibrium will be set.

And JS doesn’t need to speculate. He can check the buy history and see if the players buying them are the ultra rich or not. If the percentage of buyers who are ultra rich is in the single digits then he can make a statement like that.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Wanze.8410:

OK, here it is:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Dusk-sold-out-1-Left/first#post2713593

81 Dusks Sold over 60 hours, 5 of those were sold by someone who sold at least 1 more at the same day, all buyers were unique.

37 The Legend sold over 60 hours, all of them had unique buyers and sellers.

So only 11 of 118 of those 2 precursors could have possibly been sold by the same person within 60 hours, if we consider the person also sold 1 Legend every day.

So for 2 precursors, where players suspected foul play and market manipulation, all had unique buyers and less than 10% of the trading volume could have possibly come form the same person.

Do you think you can effectively influence a market while only being responsible for 10% of the trading volume, or is the price, in fact, set by supply and demand of the other individual 100+ individual traders?

Not to burst your bubble but that data is 7 months old and has little or no relevance to the current market situation. I would like to see today’s data and how it compares, if there is nothing to hide, no abnormal wealth trends etc. why not bring it out for all to see and put the speculation to rest….yup thought not.

I think you are mixing some stuff up here a bit.
I posted that data to show that even if people think that precursor prices get manipulated (most or all listings bought out over a short period of time), its not the case. It doesnt matter, if it was 7 months ago. At that time, people thought that the prices were inflated/manipulated by a few rich users and John provided data to the contrary.

Now it was stated again, that a few rich players messing with the precursor market are responsible for the high prices.

What makes you think that now, 7 months later, this assumption is true out of a sudden, when JS already stated that its not? Someone asked how JS checks those claims and my example was to illustrate how he does.

It also had nothing to with wealth trends and an updated wealth disparity sheet.

Personally, i wouldnt mind to see one either but im sure the data will be easily interpretable in both ways.

And how is wealth measured? Is it pure gold?

I rarely have more than 10g on hand before i log out at night because i use it all to place buy orders for items i trade with.
And i also usually dont have more than 200-500g when i log in the next day, collected my profits and cancelled all my buy orders.

With those numbers, i might be in the top 50%, depending on the time of day but how would you value all my other assets?

How do you value my 500+ sell listings on the TP that would accumulate to 5 digit gold values if they all sell? Will they be valued at the price i listed them for or their highest bidding value atm or not at all?
What about all the items in my inventory, on mules, my personal or guild bank, that i keep for later sale?

Just for clarification, here is the chart, we are talking about:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-guild-wars-2-virtual-economy/

While it shows that 50% of the players held 85% of the wealth, it doesnt show how wealth is defined. It was also only analyzed a very short timeframe (a beta weekend), where you could assume that all accounts were active.

By now, we have nearly 3.5 million actived accounts but many arent active anymore.
Should they be included in the data sample or left out?

Should wealth, however it is defined, be divided by hours played?

LordByron.8369:

John Smith.4610:

2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.

Are you an economist or a politician?
Not controlled? maybe
Try to say they are not manipulated……

3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

And this is where you are speculating without any proof.
As Always with a dash of retoric….

1) sigil of generosity…..
2) TP guilds
3) sum of tp barons

A single announcement can make items spike of 1000%…..and its not personal use.

I find quite unpleasant how you try to manipulate words…..this is not communication nor transparency.

If he’s the one doing the research for anything regarding the TP, it’s a good bet that he’s going to be an economist of some sort. Further, he has far greater access to numbers than players could ever dream of. It’s one thing to say he might be missing out on an important minor detail, another to outright say he’s lying.

Second, when the price of something swings wildly, like unid dyes, radiant dust, or whatever rune was mentioned before, that’s not a single player influencing the price. It’s a massive chunk of the playerbase having that information and choosing to purchase that item. Unfortunately, the market doesnt have enough supply available for the price to stay suppressed, so guess what happens? The price rises as more and more people buy the lowest priced item and supply runs out. That’s why unid dyes topped out around a gold each. At this point, hoarders check the market, see there’s a shiny gold to be made, and then unload hundreds/thousands of an item back into the market.
Sure a single player can do the same thing. But they’d have to be incredibly rich (the 0.01%, not 1%), incredibly bored, and completely naive about how the market works. Maybe a dash or three of having a rather large “blond moment.”

John Smith.4610:

Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.

I do. When I see the price of petrol (gas) and other commodities being speculated up by RL flippers, I see people suffering through lack of essential goods while the wealthy can still afford them but at ripoff prices. I don’t call that “equilibrium”.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, but that too is a symptom of the flaws in the Trading Post. I mean, do you really believe that thousands of players woke up that morning and went “I must have every color dye right away! I want to taste the rainbow!”

They correctly identified that a good low risk investment with a good return would be to buy cheap dyes for alts , this is something that would happen with or without a TP , it happens in every MMO where it’s known that something will become useful or valuable before an update.

Astralporing.1957:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To put this further into context, the effort I put in was the result of some thinking, a few mouse clicks, and number pressing. So now you expect all players, no matter what they’re doing, to get the same results as me for thinking, clicking, and key pressing. Spam 1 on Shadow Behemoth, get 100 Gold. Do Lion’s Arch Jumping Puzzle, get 100 Gold. Run from point A to point B in Queensdale, get 100 Gold.

Yes. You are, of course free to think that such an effort is not worth 100 gold – and if you are, then i would agree with you. In that case, however, it should not give that much money regardless of the activity.

This is why you need to take into account “Skill” and having activities reward more/ uniquely reward the more “skill” they require. I know people are being coy and pretending that you can’t define it but at a base level it’s where you can do something (intentionally possible within the game) to a standard/level that is above at the very least the majority of players. Or in a pass fail situation you can successfully accomplish something where the majority of players would fail.

Naturally there are different levels of skill and these can be measured using cut offs based on failure rates (i.e 50% fail, 70%,90%,95%,99%,99.99%) or completion times depending on the activity.

Svarty.8019:

John Smith.4610:

Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.

I do. When I see the price of petrol (gas) and other commodities being speculated up by RL flippers, I see people suffering through lack of essential goods while the wealthy can still afford them but at ripoff prices. I don’t call that “equilibrium”.

It’s a good thing your character doesn’t need gas then, isn’t———it?
(the dashes were inserted to bypass the overzealous kitten censor).

This thread reminds me of the fable, The 10 blind men describing an elephant.
The fact is, we don’t have all the data Yet, even though we don’t and we know we don’t, we are more than willing to state facts. People posting on here trying to post all fancy little comments and phrases. Trying to make other think they are more than the sum of their parts. If you can’t prove your point with facts. It’s nothing more than speculation or opinions disguised as facts.

Reader’s Digest condensed version of last 11 pages
player a- there is a broblem
player b- no there isn’t
player a- yes there is, I can’t prove it or put my finger on it, but here, let me tell you how to fix a problem I can’t prove exist.

It’s so absurd.

Svarty.8019:

John Smith.4610:

Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.

I do. When I see the price of petrol (gas) and other commodities being speculated up by RL flippers, I see people suffering through lack of essential goods while the wealthy can still afford them but at ripoff prices. I don’t call that “equilibrium”.

I forgot who said it but essential when your character has to pay for eating, heating, housing, and medical insurance/treatment or else your character dies permantently, then your argument will be valid.

LordByron.8369:

John Smith.4610:

2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.

Are you an economist or a politician?
Not controlled? maybe
Try to say they are not manipulated……

3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

And this is where you are speculating without any proof.
As Always with a dash of retoric….

1) sigil of generosity…..
2) TP guilds
3) sum of tp barons

A single announcement can make items spike of 1000%…..and its not personal use.

I find quite unpleasant how you try to manipulate words…..this is not communication nor transparency.

Please see Wanze’s post above about the velocity of Legendaries.

The problem specifically is, (and it’s been said at least a dozen times) is that the currently unregulated TP allows a player (without much skill mind you) to earn a fairly large pool of gold in a fairly short period of time. That it is completely out of whack from any other way of earning gold in any other avenue of the game (while you sleep even!). No matter how you slice it, it’s an exploit that needs to be fixed.

If it’s not clear as to why that’s a problem, i have no idea how to tell anyone more plainly then the basic fact that if even 1% of the population can afford to outright buy a legendary in a fairly short period of time, that’s a pretty unfair advantage over the other 99%.

The only saving grace to all this is that you can convert gems to gold, but even then, 500-600 bucks is a pretty steep price for a virtual item.

Astralporing.1957:

Zaxares.5419:

No single player, no matter how wealthy, can hope to come close to the kind of impact this mass of trading power the collective GW2 player base has. Even a cartel of wealthy players would probably find themselves hard pressed to match it.

Single player? No. A group of players? Definitely. As someone already mentioned, there wouldn’t be items on TP with 1k+ sale values if there weren’t people willing to spend that much (and huge majority of the players do not even own that much money).
Notice, that i am not talking about intentional control here – merely of an impact that huge wealth disparity has on the TP.

This is something I think gets bypassed a lot. While for some odd reason the discussion always seems to veer towards individuals or small groups of individuals, the collective effect of those on the each side of the gap is where it matters.

munkiman.3068:

The problem specifically is, (and it’s been said at least a dozen times) is that the currently unregulated TP allows a player (without much skill mind you) to earn a fairly large pool of gold in a fairly short period of time. That it is completely out of whack from any other way of earning gold in any other avenue of the game (while you sleep even!). No matter how you slice it, it’s an exploit that needs to be fixed.

If it’s not clear as to why that’s a problem, i have no idea how to tell anyone more plainly then the basic fact that if even 1% of the population can afford to outright buy a legendary in a fairly short period of time, that’s a pretty unfair advantage over the other 99%.

The only saving grace to all this is that you can convert gems to gold, but even then, 500-600 bucks is a pretty steep price for a virtual item.

The legendary weapons were designed to be an item for the 1% the issue would be more that the wrong 1% has super easy access to them (i.e TP flippers as opposed to highly skilled players).

And your post actually highlights the differences in player opinions on different aspects because I don’t consider being able to outright buy with real money a legendary a saving grace but rather a large flaw in a game system, where top rewards would ideally only be obtainable through actual advanced game-play.

Conski Deshan.2057:

And your post actually highlights the differences in player opinions on different aspects because I don’t consider being able to outright buy with real money a legendary a saving grace but rather a large flaw in a game system, where top rewards would ideally only be obtainable through actual advanced game-play.

WoW is that way >>>
Enjoy your exclusive “advanced game-play” restricted rewards over there where the treadmill is how they keep you paying them every month.

mtpelion.4562:

Conski Deshan.2057:

And your post actually highlights the differences in player opinions on different aspects because I don’t consider being able to outright buy with real money a legendary a saving grace but rather a large flaw in a game system, where top rewards would ideally only be obtainable through actual advanced game-play.

WoW is that way >>>
Enjoy your exclusive “advanced game-play” restricted rewards over there where the treadmill is how they keep you paying them every month.

Played it for a month not my cup of tea, I don’t like treadmills, but I do believe that a legendary was designed as a trophy item for showing off not as a general gameplay item for the masses. Trophies are earned not bought.

You are mixing up gear grind and obtaining prestigious items, one is required to function in a game the other is optional and something you choose to do to stand out. So I think I’ll stay in this game since I’ve been playing the series since prophecies first came out and perhaps you can provide reasoned counterpoints as opposed to telling people to leave.

Conski Deshan.2057:

mtpelion.4562:

Conski Deshan.2057:

And your post actually highlights the differences in player opinions on different aspects because I don’t consider being able to outright buy with real money a legendary a saving grace but rather a large flaw in a game system, where top rewards would ideally only be obtainable through actual advanced game-play.

WoW is that way >>>
Enjoy your exclusive “advanced game-play” restricted rewards over there where the treadmill is how they keep you paying them every month.

Played it for a month not my cup of tea, I don’t like treadmills, but I do believe that a legendary was designed as a trophy item for showing off not as a general gameplay item for the masses. Trophies are earned not bought.

You are mixing up gear grind and obtaining prestigious items, one is required to function in a game the other is optional and something you choose to do to stand out. So I think I’ll stay in this game since I’ve been playing the series since prophecies first came out and perhaps you can provide reasoned counterpoints as opposed to telling people to leave.

You’re saying you want reward content locked behind some kind of “skill” (lol) based content. That is NOT how this game was designed to be.

If that’s what you want and that isn’t what this game was meant to be, then the appropriate thing for me to suggest is that you play a game that was designed to meet your preference.

Now if you want to argue that this game SHOULD be like the many games that already exist in terms of reward acquisition, you’re going to get a pretty decent amount of blow-back because we play this game specifically because it is NOT that way.

Conski Deshan.2057:

munkiman.3068:

The problem specifically is, (and it’s been said at least a dozen times) is that the currently unregulated TP allows a player (without much skill mind you) to earn a fairly large pool of gold in a fairly short period of time. That it is completely out of whack from any other way of earning gold in any other avenue of the game (while you sleep even!). No matter how you slice it, it’s an exploit that needs to be fixed.

If it’s not clear as to why that’s a problem, i have no idea how to tell anyone more plainly then the basic fact that if even 1% of the population can afford to outright buy a legendary in a fairly short period of time, that’s a pretty unfair advantage over the other 99%.

The only saving grace to all this is that you can convert gems to gold, but even then, 500-600 bucks is a pretty steep price for a virtual item.

The legendary weapons were designed to be an item for the 1% the issue would be more that the wrong 1% has super easy access to them (i.e TP flippers as opposed to highly skilled players).

And your post actually highlights the differences in player opinions on different aspects because I don’t consider being able to outright buy with real money a legendary a saving grace but rather a large flaw in a game system, where top rewards would ideally only be obtainable through actual advanced game-play.

You can use anything you want as a measuring stick for how out of whack the TP is, it doesn’t have to be a legendary, take crafting to 500, take BiS ascended armor, take any shiny skin. Regardless, you’re literally limiting content to a small pool of players. I really dislike the fact that JS uses luxury goods when talking about a virtual item that’s basically content that is out of reach to most of the player base. It’s seems pretty separated from the concepts used for the rest of the game.

Take the TP out of the game and see how quickly things balance out, you wouldn’t have the richest players basically being able to afford high priced items, they’d not be able to earn enough to pay for them in any sort of reasonable time frame. I’m not suggesting that as a solution, i’m just thinking out loud.

What seems to have been forgotten in this discussion is that most of the money made in the TP is earned in inefficient markets. It’s not easy to make money in the thick leather or mithril market, because it’s relatively efficient at this point – most players have a pretty good idea of what the range of prices should be, and they know when to pounce when it’s out of whack. Players making money on the TP are making it from players who run dungeons or farm or convert gems but aren’t interested in learning much about what other people value.

The thing with precursors is that lots more people want them than there are precursors to go around. It’s a major status symbol. That’s what’s holding up the price – even if wealth disparity was much smaller, the precursor price would come down to be still completely out of reach of most players. Any lower, and they wouldn’t even be on the market.

It’s somewhat unfortunate that legendaries more or less boil down into gold + badges + obsidian shards + map completion, but when the legendary recipes were designed, bloodstone dust, empyreal shards and dragonite ore didn’t exist. The legendary recipe format allows for variations in the recipe; hopefully we’ll see a way to use some of the newer resources as alternatives. (The Gift of Light in particular could do with an alternative recipe.)

mtpelion.4562:

You’re saying you want reward content locked behind some kind of “skill” (lol) based content. That is NOT how this game was designed to be.

If that’s what you want and that isn’t what this game was meant to be, then the appropriate thing for me to suggest is that you play a game that was designed to meet your preference.

Now if you want to argue that this game SHOULD be like the many games that already exist in terms of reward acquisition, you’re going to get a pretty decent amount of blow-back because we play this game specifically because it is NOT that way.

I was referring specifically to legendary weapons in this case and the issue of buying them with real money, but locking behind skill gates would not exactly be a horrible solution, it would break the monotony of gold gates. I mean this week I bought 2 torment skins 2 lovestruck skins, the crossing and about a dozen other semi-rare skins but none of them really felt earned because all I had to do was grind some gold to get them, I am merely presenting that point of view not demanding the game be changed.

munkiman.3068:

You can use anything you want as a measuring stick for how out of whack the TP is, it doesn’t have to be a legendary, take crafting to 500, take BiS ascended armor, take any shiny skin. Regardless, you’re literally limiting content to a small pool of players. I really dislike the fact that JS uses luxury goods when talking about a virtual item that’s basically content that is out of reach to most of the player base. It’s seems pretty separated from the concepts used for the rest of the game.

Take the TP out of the game and see how quickly things balance out, you wouldn’t have the richest players basically being able to afford high priced items, they’d not be able to earn enough to pay for them in any sort of reasonable time frame. I’m not suggesting that as a solution, i’m just thinking out loud.

I agree with the Crafting to 500 and the shiney skins part, I would note they did take a step in the right direction with ascended crafting with the bloodstone/emp/dragonite which at the very least forces the player to do at least some content.

Limiting the content to small pools of players ise’nt necessarily the problem (normally there are lots of pools with different requirements and while very few people are in all the pools nearly everyone is in at least one or two of them) but that the TP is allowing access to all the pools for doing one very specific activity (flipping/market speculation) and while this has always been a thing in MMO’s it was never possible to get access to such high quantities that the single unified TP provides.

I’d highlight that the two major “problems” (if people agree there is a problem) are:

1. Everything revolves around gold, a single currency earnable through nearly any activity, this makes it very easy to break into any area you want.
2. The ease of access provided by the TP (flipping would not be a popular career choice if you had to do the GW1 trade method). I wouldn’t recommend removal but some limitation perhaps?

Some sort of regulation should be in place to slow down the earning potential of a flip. Perhaps a cool-down on when you can resell an item back into the TP after buying up stock?

That actually might help to quell the dismay people have in undercutting that’s going on in the other popular thread.

munkiman.3068:

Some sort of regulation should be in place to slow down the earning potential of a flip. Perhaps a cool-down on when you can resell an item back into the TP after buying up stock?

It has been pointed out numerous times that there is zero evidence to suggest that any additonal regulation is needed, even the guy in charge of the economy states as much. It has been 11 pages (and previous “anti TP” threads in the past are of a smiliar size) and still not one shred of evidence has actually been presented which points to there being an issue. To continue to suggest that it is “out of whack” and needs altering when there is not one iota of evidence which points to that being the case is a bit odd. That expensive items exist is certainly not evidence.

You cited ascended armor, 500 crafting and legendaries earlier. All of those can be obtained through gold earned via non TP methods as has been demonstrated multiple times now earlier in this thread and others like it.

If people are unwilling to maximise their gold making potential, whether it is within the remit of pve, the TP or a combination of both, then rare/luxury items which are in both high demand and short supply will always be out of reach of those player within the context of a short time span. Flipping or no flipping.

Btw should we try that little experiment of removing the TP for a while, what would infact happen would be: The rich would still have access to luxury items faster than the poor, the luxury items would still be out of reach (within a short span of time) of the poor and moreover, everyone would be far worse off.

So from what little ive read you guys are complaining about people being rich but Don’t want to raise the TP Tax

My only Solution is to limit the amount of materials you can buy at any given time lets say 1 stack = 250 mats if you limit it to once a day per every daily reset this would limit the so called rich controlling everything by playing the markets because they can only get 1 stack a day they will not have the chance to Hord 15k Iron ingots and sell them for 10s+ when a New PVE Content item releases for it

as for Legendry’s and other armor/wep based items you should be limited to atleast 10 a day of each armor/weapon type per day so if I buy 10 exotic zerker’s armors salavege them then I will have to buy a 10 set of zerker’s that is a different type light/heavy/medium/skin/name ect

just thought this up Raise TP Tax based on the quanity of materials like 35% on 250 mats lol

Fenrir.3609:

Or people could just put their pitchforks away and stop witch hunting the “rich” using unfounded arguments?

True but this is an argument about Spreading the Wealth only reason this is getting attention by Anet is because Anet swings more to the Left when it comes to Income Equality

That’s why GW2 is becoming more Casual Game for casual players nothing really challenging had to edit it a few times lol

Budman.2934:

So from what little ive read you guys are complaining about people being rich but Don’t want to raise the TP Tax

My only Solution is to limit the amount of materials you can buy at any given time lets say 1 stack = 250 mats if you limit it to once a day per every daily reset this would limit the so called rich controlling everything by playing the markets because they can only get 1 stack a day they will not have the chance to Hord 15k Iron ingots and sell them for 10s+ when a New PVE Content item releases for it

as for Legendry’s and other armor/wep based items you should be limited to atleast 10 a day of each armor/weapon type per day so if I buy 10 exotic zerker’s armors salavege them then I will have to buy a 10 set of zerker’s that is a different type light/heavy/medium/skin/name ect

just thought this up Raise TP Tax based on the quanity of materials like 35% on 250 mats lol

Your “solution” makes the TP unusable for the average player and destroys the economy of the game. The idea is to:

1: Prove there is actually a problem (spoiler: there isn’t)

2: Propose a solution that solves the problem but does not ruin the TP for the average player.

Your solution to a problem that doesn’t exist is to place such restrictions on every player that the TP cannot be used for anything except flipping, those who actually want to buy mats for crafting or gear for their characters will find the TP to be useless to them.

munkiman.3068:

The problem specifically is, (and it’s been said at least a dozen times) is that the currently unregulated TP allows a player (without much skill mind you) to earn a fairly large pool of gold in a fairly short period of time. That it is completely out of whack from any other way of earning gold in any other avenue of the game (while you sleep even!). No matter how you slice it, it’s an exploit that needs to be fixed.

If it’s not clear as to why that’s a problem, i have no idea how to tell anyone more plainly then the basic fact that if even 1% of the population can afford to outright buy a legendary in a fairly short period of time, that’s a pretty unfair advantage over the other 99%.

The only saving grace to all this is that you can convert gems to gold, but even then, 500-600 bucks is a pretty steep price for a virtual item.

I’ve bolded the parts where you are wrong and need to reconsider. It is not easy and although it is relatively quick in game time, there are hours of out of game time research that has to take place. So no not quickly.

Schizo.1375:

munkiman.3068:

The problem specifically is, (and it’s been said at least a dozen times) is that the currently unregulated TP allows a player (without much skill mind you) to earn a fairly large pool of gold in a fairly short period of time. That it is completely out of whack from any other way of earning gold in any other avenue of the game (while you sleep even!). No matter how you slice it, it’s an exploit that needs to be fixed.

If it’s not clear as to why that’s a problem, i have no idea how to tell anyone more plainly then the basic fact that if even 1% of the population can afford to outright buy a legendary in a fairly short period of time, that’s a pretty unfair advantage over the other 99%.

The only saving grace to all this is that you can convert gems to gold, but even then, 500-600 bucks is a pretty steep price for a virtual item.

I’ve bolded the parts where you are wrong and need to reconsider. It is not easy and although it is relatively quick in game time, there are hours of out of game time research that has to take place. So no not quickly.

I don’t understand this, it’s like saying being a doctor takes skill or something. I mean, all you do is talk to a person for five minutes, give them some pills, and tell them to come back in a month. Anyone can do it.

It’s just like the TP works – you buy some stuff, relist it for double the price, and in an hour you’re rich!

munkiman.3068:

Take the TP out of the game and see how quickly things balance out…

Please do this JS, just for a limited time so people can see just how aweful of an idea it is and soon people will see just how great the TP works.

My favorite part about this forum is the thickness of the facetiousness.
:D

Personally I’m gonna stick with: “Hey guys, let’s boost the other currencies and make it so gold isn’t essentially the only currency that matters”

Gene Archer.8560:

Personally I’m gonna stick with: “Hey guys, let’s boost the other currencies and make it so gold isn’t essentially the only currency that matters”

cough Obsi shards. cough

Karma matters because it’s tied into a lot of high-tier endgame crafting. Sure, a player could spend 0 karma on crafting the materials needed for an ascended set, but the players they bought the materials from did spend karma. And that’s not mentioning you need the shards for mystic clovers.

Beyond that, people asking for “solutions” have yet to prove that;
1. There IS a problem that cannot be corrected by any other method such as teaching players how to use the same methods the “elite” market players use, and
2. The proposed solutions to an unproven problem would not impact the players you’re supposedly attempting to protect.

Limiting purchasing based on quantity says “kitten you” to anyone crafting ascended armor/weapons or leveling a craft. Limiting turnaround time on sales says “kitten you” to anyone who bought too much of a resource and is attempting to sell back their surplus. Increasing sales tax says “kitten you” to players just selling things they loot and craft to make money, and “kitten you” to people buying stuff off the TP because sellers are passing off that tax onto buyers.

Quite frankly, the only way to siphon money from “rich” players so their wealth is in line with other players is to take it from them. That is the only solution to the perceived problem. Any other “solution” is going to impact the very players you’re attempting to benefit.